Mega Edition: Examining a Sam Allberry Podcast

The Rise of Sam Allberry as a Go-To Resource on Homosexuality

For the last two days, we've had ND Perkins on the podcast to talk about his new book, Dangerous Affirmations, and I think we had a good discussion and one of the things, if you listened, I asked him at the end was, what do you think about Sam Albury?

Because Sam Albury is probably the top name I hear from other Christians who want to navigate this issue of homosexuality as a resource that's being recommended to them. So he's going to speak at our church or my pastor recommended him.

I know he actually came when I was living in Lynchburg, he came to Lynchburg during that time. I think I might have been on a small trip the day he came, but it was a church in town, which of course, a church that presented itself as conservative and everything.

And so people wouldn't have thought anything different. They would have thought, he's giving a really orthodox view of this. This is the Christian understanding, he's going to help us navigate this. I remember even when I was in school, there was a classmate who really wanted to get into apologetics and in case you don't listen regularly, I just had an episode recently where I talked about this and I said, look, the apologetics community, if you want to call it that, it almost functions like its own denomination, but they've really fumbled with this whole social justice issue, including homosexuality, they've really fumbled.

They really want to keep talking about atheism and other things, but this is one of the areas where it's just obvious to me that they become a, when they're a strong lion when it comes to atheism, they become a little bitty farm cat when it comes to issues like homosexuality, where they want to have this like, well, we'll proclaim the truth technically, but we also want to carve out some kind of an exception or some kind of a category where someone can technically be gay or same sex attracted or whatever term you want to put there.

But they have some kind of a, there's a difference in their temptations, affections, desires in that it's okay to some extent. They want to carve out something there and that's what I've seen when the topic is even addressed, because oftentimes it's just avoided, but you can't avoid it anymore.

And so Sam Albury, I think, is one of these guys that he at least talks about it, right? I mean, his whole ministry seems to be crafted around this now and that might not even be his doing, that might just be because of the demand, but the demand seems to be in elite Christian circles, especially find people who identify as gay or same sex attracted or homosexual, find someone who might've lived that lifestyle.

Actually, no, they don't really do that as much, do they? Because I know several people who have lived that lifestyle who they don't really want much to do with, because those people are saying, you can be delivered from this and that's what you should strive for.

And they don't do that. They're not going to go knocking on the door of Darren Mell or Bobby Lopez or Juan Riesco or maybe probably even someone like a Stephen Bennett. I just don't see that happening really.

But what they want is someone who identifies to, they want like a Rebecca McLaughlin, right? They want a Sam Albury. They want some of the people who have spoken at Revoice, people who have this quote unquote experience who can then come in and tell the church how to address this.

And I would like to point out something to you before we get into this. This is no different than what they do on the issue of critical race theory, right? Now, in their minds, they think of it as racism, but it's not racism they're addressing.

The issue is not racism, it's social justice, okay? And they bring someone in, they want a black person. And by the way, conservatives are guilty of doing this too, to some extent. Maybe not as extensive, but to some extent where the person who's the most qualified is the black person to talk about critical race theory or to talk about racism.

There's this sometimes unacknowledged assumption. Or think about it this way, with the Caring Well stuff, the Me Too stuff and the SBC, let's bring in all these people who claim to have abuse victim stories.

They're the ones that are gonna educate us on this topic. What's the common thread here? Well, it's the standpoint theory stuff. You need people with an experience to then lecture or instruct those without the experience, because the experience is the determinative thing.

Now, I'm not saying that experience isn't helpful or that experience should be disregarded or stories aren't powerful. I'm not saying any of that. I'm not saying those things, that there's not a use there or that God doesn't allow people to have certain experiences so that he can use them later in certain ways.

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is the assumption that by nature of having an experience gives you authority because others have barriers to their understanding because they lack an experience. That's the part of this that's wrong.

And so the reason I know that it's not about just having an experience, but it's about having a certain kind of experience is because of the dearth of people who are qualified, by the way, to speak about the subject of homosexuality, but the dearth of them that are selected to be on the conference circuit who have come out of it and don't identify it as it anymore.

So they say, I'm not a homosexual. I have a family. You too can be like me. You can come out of this. You can serve the Lord. You can beat this desire with the help of Jesus. You can, however you want to phrase that or think of that mechanism of coming from homosexuality to heterosexuality or perhaps more biblically coming from a state of sin and disorder desires to a state of order desires according to God's creation design.

That whole process, people who have gone through it, they are not as respected or platformed as those who still claim to have this fixed identity. And that's what kind of gives it away to me that they're looking for a certain kind of person.

They want, there's a certain kind of pedigree and we could talk about it and flesh it out more, but I see standpoint theory written all over this and there seems to be a bit of a political maneuver. It doesn't mean that everyone involved in this is aware of that, but big picture here, when you look at all the things that are happening, compare it to the things that aren't happening that should be, then you start to understand.

You start to realize that this is moving the needle in a certain direction. So Sam Albury is, in my mind, he's at the top of the list as far as Christian, and I think he even is called by many an apologist, Christian apologists who are tackling this issue.

He's the go-to guy. He's the expert. He's the one you should talk to. And when I talked to MD Perkins about this and asked him, MD basically said, well, Sam's hard. Sam's a hard case because he says some good things and then he says some things that are confusing.

He says some bad things. And it's like, you don't really know exactly where Sam lines up. It's hard for someone like MD. And I understand that with someone like a Sam Albury. We've talked about him actually before in the podcast.

We've examined some panels and we actually recently did a whole thing on a panel that he was on. But I thought, let's look at something else. Let's look at something newer. And the reason I want to do this is it came across my email just yesterday.

So literally, as I'm having this discussion with MD, someone, without knowing that I had had this discussion, sends me an email and says, look at this. I'm subscribed to Paul David Tripp's podcast or ministry.

And he said, Paul David Tripp sends me an email and advertises, you got to watch this thing with Sam Albury. And some of the questions they're supposed to ask, in fact, I'll pull it up so I can get the phrasing right.

But they're supposed to ask questions like, is God anti-gay? Which is the question of Sam Albury's first book on the topic. And here, I'm pulling it up now. I'll just read for you. This is from Paul David Tripp's ministry.

And that's the podcast we're going to be looking at. So this was recorded, I think, back in February, but it's being advertised now. And it's got Tim Keller's endorsement of Sam Albury. It's got, and it is what Paul Tripp says.

We are in a moment when society is asking questions like never before. Who are we? What do our bodies mean? What does sex mean? What is gender anyway? The discussion should not make us afraid because God has answered these questions for us in his word.

I am thankful for Sam Albury. And I'm sure when you finish this episode, you will be too. And the whole way the episode starts, or the email starts off, it says, is God anti-gay? Does being single mean you cannot experience intimacy?

This is an interesting word choice. How do Christians respond to a culture that's trying to redefine gender? And these are questions Sam Albury's wrestled with. He's a pastor, he's an apologist, and most recently a guest.

So we're going to go through this podcast. I mean, these are the questions that are supposed to be answered in a biblical way. And let's look at the way that Sam Albury actually answers these questions.

And I think this will help you understand whether or not Sam Albury is actually helpful for Christians today to navigate this issue. I think there's some appeal he has as far as the way he communicates is very, it sounds intellectual, probably because he has a British accent, and it also sounds very gentle.

And there does need to be some grace for those who are repentant, who are desiring to follow Jesus and want to get out of this snare, just like we would with any sin. But there has to also be a point of very direct biblical ethics applied, the law coming to bear.

And that's what I see lacking the most in this whole Christian apologetics world when they address this topic. And I think it somewhat lacks in Sam Albury as well, the way he navigates this. So you'll see whether or not my conclusions about Sam Albury are correct by going over some of the clips, I think.

And I'm gonna just let you know about some of the pitfalls I see here. But I wanna be positive as well and just commend to you at least some of the things that I think that makes Sam Albury attractive to individuals.

And that is one of them, that his gentleness. And so we need to have, I think, gentleness and reverence, right? That's what the Bible calls us. But righteous indignation is sometimes also part of what we need to do as Christians.

We need to encourage the weak, right? We need to correct the faint-hearted or admonish the unruly, I guess. Sorry, correct the faint-hearted. I got that all wrong. Admonish the unruly, help the weak, and encourage the faint-hearted.

And we need to do some triage sometimes in counseling situations. But admonishment is certainly part of this. So we're gonna start somewhere in the middle here. Sam Albury goes through his testimony and talks about when he came to the realization in his mind that he was homosexual.

And I wanna skip ahead to 25 minutes in. And I think his testimony, I think that's one of the compelling things is that he has this story of struggle and of feeling kind of unwanted, perhaps, in the church and that he didn't fit.

And so here he is, though, and this is what... Here's kind of the crux, I think, of one of the issues involved in this whole thing is whether or not God makes one a homosexual or a heterosexual. And Sam Albury doesn't come out and answer it.

He doesn't articulate it exceptionally clear. In a clear fashion. But I think what he does give you is something that, if you think about it, it will drive you towards a conclusion. And I don't think it's a very good conclusion.

So here's Sam Albury. Remember our deal, or our goal, my goal? Biologically less probable.

That some of these things will happen by the time I'm 30.

Well, are you talking about this at the time with your youth group leader or anybody else? It's just internally, you're kind of going through this? I'm not told a soul. Okay.

How long? So he's saying right here, I haven't told anyone that he's saying that I'm homosexual. Actually, I think I should skip it before this just a little bit.

You know, blow at the time, partly because A, Jesus is good. So if this is what the goodness looks like, that's okay. I can trust him with that. Also, I was also thinking, well, now that I'm a Christian, these feelings will just evaporate anyway, and I'll meet a girl, and I'm

Okay, so he hasn't told anyone that he is homosexual, or has these desires, I should say, right? That's, I think, how he's just saying, he's identifying now as he's same-sex attracted. So he has these desires, and he doesn't say it, but he's thinking, I'm a Christian, so these things are just going to dissipate.

It'll go away.

And this is what happens. They don't go away. That's basically it. I remember turning 20 thinking, okay, by the time I turn 30, I will be married with kids. That's my goal. So I just assumed, you know, these other desires will just disappear as I follow Jesus, and everything else will kind of be made right.

And then they weren't. No, and that was the one time I felt some frustration with the Lord. Yeah. It was probably in my mid -20s where I was thinking, this is getting tight, timing-wise. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're getting closer to 30, God.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's becoming sort of... Remember our deal, or our goal, my goal? Biologically less probable.

That some of these things will happen by the time I'm 30.

Well, are you talking about this?

Okay, so this is, I think, one of the key elements here, and this is part of his experience. I know he has talked about this in a more assertive manner in other places, but the thing I want you to look for and ask yourself is, you have an experience, all right?

Any experience. If it is related to, or involves ethical decisions, ethical conclusions, what determines how you view that experience as a Christian? Is it the Word of God and what the Word of God says about that particular topic?

If we believe the Word of God does, in fact, is sufficient for all things pertaining to life and godliness, if it equips the man of God fully, then are you searching the Word of God and finding out what does God say about this, and then imposing that upon your experience, or at least interpreting your experience by that?

Or do you then use your experience, do you do the opposite way? Like, I have an experience, and now I have to go try to fit this somehow into my theology, or figure out a theology that will make sense of the experience I have, right?

So do you make sense of the Word of God based on your experience, or do you make sense of your experience based on the Word of God's clear teaching? And I think probably all three of these individuals would say, well, we're just trying to, we want the Word of God to be the authority here, but I think what actually is happening, and downstream, I think, from Sam Albery, when he teaches this stuff, the opportunity is given there for something kind of dangerous.

He is going through his 20s saying, well, my feelings haven't changed. I have this artificial goal. Now, maybe that's not the goal he should have had. I don't know. That's between him and God. But he had this assumption that it seems like it was a wrong assumption that he would, by the time he was 30, that's the deadline, have kids.

Is that something that, not the 30 thing, but having kids, having a wife and kids, is that a good aspiration? We'd have to say, yes, of course it is. God wants us to be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth.

Marriage is a good thing. God invented it, created it. It's a picture of Christ in the church. It's beautiful, right? So there's nothing wrong with that. But what he doesn't talk about is taking active steps.

Now, maybe he did, but he doesn't talk about it here, taking active steps towards trying to bring that about. In fact, one of the reasons I know that there's probably something lacking here is he says, I didn't tell anyone.

So he didn't tell his pastor. He didn't tell anyone about this during his, it wasn't until his late 20s, but yet he still has this expectation that at 30, I'm gonna have, these desires are gonna go away.

I'll have a wife, I'll have kids by that time. So the tools that God has given us include our leaders, our pastors, right? Our shepherds, they're the ones watching over our souls. They're the ones that help us walk through some of these difficult situations.

And at this point, as he's talking about his story, he hasn't told anyone about this, but he's just kind of had this experience privately. And so should the conclusion be drawn from this that, well, I guess you're, that's just the way you are.

You're just the same sex attracted person. You might as well, you know, don't create expectations of having a wife and family. Don't pursue that goal, pursue something else, pursue singleness, Christ-centered singleness, pursue, I don't know, just other things that don't involve sexuality, pursue these friendships that can somehow give you a level of intimacy that's not marriage, but at least it's something.

Is that a right take from this? That's the question. So at this point in Sam Albrey's life, he isn't using at least all the tools that God, and I don't know all the circumstances, but the tools that God has given would include leaders helping us through these things.

And he just, he doesn't create an assumption or goal as much as he creates an assumption. And when it's unmet, when his assumption, his deadline is not met, that's when something happens. That's when he starts to kind of realize in his own mind that, well, this is part of my identity, I guess, right?

So feelings of same-sex attraction, thinking he's gay. Then he becomes a Christian. This is my identity now. So because I'm a Christian, I'm gonna change. The change didn't happen the way I thought it was going to happen in the timeframe I thought it was going to happen.

Therefore, now I can fuse, I can take that gay identity and fuse it with my Christianity because I guess that's who I am. Instead, I'd like to just suggest there are other options out there. Make war on this thing.

And that would include finding spiritual accountability and a leader that can help you with this. That would include not making specific deadlines of expectations that I'll be married with a wife and kids by the time I'm 30.

By the way, I'm one that had that expectation, by the way, that I'd be married with a wife and kids by the time I was 30. And I was married, but I didn't have kids. And so should I assume that God just wants me to never have kids?

I guess it's just not gonna happen. No, right? I keep pursuing that. That's something that I think is a good desire. It's a right desire. It's a God-ordained thing. And because of that, I don't give up on that.

And that's with Sam Albury. I mean, he could have just as easily been a heterosexual who thought I'll have a wife and kids by the time I'm 30. It didn't happen. I guess I'm doomed to singleness, right?

So I know I'm injecting way more commentary than video we've watched. We'll watch more video. But I just have a lot of thoughts on this. And this is so subtle. The conclusions that can be drawn from this kind of thing and the analysis you're about to hear, it's so subtle and it sounds kind of so good, but you've got to watch out for the logical conclusion that what can be extrapolated from the assumptions that you're hearing.

At the time, with your youth group leader, anybody else, it's just internally, you're kind of going through this?

I'm not told a soul. Okay. How long before you began to?

It was my mid, it was my late 20s before I told anyone. And why was that? Was this fear? Explain. It was fear. I thought you're not supposed to have these feelings if you're a Christian. I've got all these new Christian friends that I love.

They may not want to be my friends if they really knew what some of the things that I am tempted by. I was just, I was already, very soon after I came to faith, I felt a call to pastoral ministry. Counterintuitively, I grew up with a massive fear of public speaking, but I felt a call about six months after I came to faith that I was going to be a preacher.

Wow. And I was just beginning to explore.

We're going to, he's going to come back to this later on in this talk. He's going to talk a little bit more about whether or not you should expect God to give you a family or not. So I don't, I can't remember or not if he goes off more on that particular subject here, but we're going to come back to it.

Let's go to this next. I want to do this in sequential order. He finds out, this is a big piece of his, of the puzzle, I think, in his story, which, I mean, he shares his story a lot. That's why I'm going over it.

The story, the teaching comes from, to some degree, the story. And so this is when he found out that homosexuality was more common and it helped him.

Back in the early 2000s, where people were like, statistically, in the room this size, there are several people wrestle with this and people going, oh, I didn't realize it was maybe a common thing. Was that a sense of relief for you?

Oh, hugely, because he then said, and if this is you, please know that you're not on your own. And we'd love to support you and encourage you. So someone was basically saying, I see you. I know you're there.

I want you to come and talk to me and it's okay. It's going to be safe. So I had recently preached my first sermon at that church, post kind of ordination. So I was due to meet with him anyway. To review that.

To kind of like, you know. Critique it. Pick through the wreckage of that anyway. Here's all the things you did wrong. You do not have a future as a pastor. I like your shirt. Let's start with the positives.

You have a nice voice. So I arranged to meet him anyway. And I said, he said, let's meet up and go through your sermon from a couple of weeks ago. And I said to him, yes, and there's something else I'd like to talk to you about as well.

Okay. I thought I'm going to make myself have to talk about this other thing. So we met up that week. We picked through my sermon.

And then he said, so what's the other thing?

What's the other thing? At that moment, I wished I'd never said that there was another thing. So I said, I'm really struggling with homosexuality. I think those are my exact words. And then sort of braced myself for, you know, the ceiling to fall down and for fire to engulf the room or something.

And he could not have been more reassuring. He just looked at me for a moment and smiled and said, thank you so much. And he said, that sounds like that was a difficult thing to share. And I'm so grateful that you shared that with me.

And I just thought, I just felt a profound relief. Yeah, I love that man. This was the right thing to do. Yeah, yeah. And then he didn't then sort of whack me over the head with 1 Corinthians 6 or anything.

He just said, how long have you been aware of this? And he just asked me some gentle questions. You know, what's it been like for you? Have you been in love? Has that been painful? Just empathetic. And no doubt, this was building a framework for how you would talk about it.

Yeah, I've been on the other side of all those sorts of conversations. But it was a pastoral masterclass, as well as being personally just such a tonic and relief and a balm.

So the reason I wanted to play this for you is because this has worked its way into Sam Albury's ministry. And there's a really good side to this in the sense that if a Christian is saying, I'm struggle, that's a good keyword here.

So not I'm identifying as, but I'm struggling with this temptation towards this particular sin. And they bring this up with their pastor. And their pastor is gentle and receptive. And then, I mean, he doesn't really talk about this, but let's just assume the best, that then he brings in the gospel and says these are sinful desires and temptations, but this is what Jesus did for you, which actually that's not really what I hear Sam Albury saying, but at least there's a spirit of gentleness there and receptivity.

And so that spirit should definitely be present. If someone comes in good faith like that, then you give them the gospel. But the law is gonna be part of that too. And that's the thing that I see missing from so much of this is there's an acknowledgement that the, I mean, in fact, later on in the podcast, the law gets brought up.

There's an acknowledgement that, well, the law means you need to follow Jesus. But an actual like direct confrontation of like it, what you're doing is wrong, yet this isn't okay. Like, thank you for sharing with me, that thank you for coming to me.

That must be hard. I've had my sins and struggles and sin is common to man. And then glorify Jesus. Jesus is what Jesus did to, and we need to flee to him. We need to repent of that. We need to hear it.

I'm gonna work with you through this. I'm gonna weep with you. I'm gonna, that seems to be the missing piece in my mind here. The let's get you from A to B. And I'm here to help shoulder that. I'm, and Jesus is there.

He is the, he's the answer to this. He's the one that did shoulder your sin already on the cross and it's defeated. And we need to behave in that way that sin shall no longer reign in our mortal bodies to obey its lust.

That we're a new creation in Christ, that these are realities that we need to believe. And we need to let our feelings then come in line under those realities. And it's gonna take work. It's gonna take time.

Look, even gluttony is hard. Diets take time, right? Limiting yourself from food. I mean, look, if, hey, when's, I mean, if you not, not to, I'm not trying to make a joke out of this at all, but gluttony is a sin.

And let's say, and it doesn't mean being fat's a sin, by the way. Gluttony is a sin. So overindulgence in food. Let's say by the, and it manifests itself obviously most of the time in someone who is overweight.

And so let's say someone who has a problem with gluttony says, you know, by the time I'm 30, really think I'm gonna be a marathon runner. And then it doesn't, it doesn't really, you don't tell anyone you struggle with this, but that one's a little difficult because it's a little more obvious.

But let's say you don't tell anyone and you don't seek any help, really. You just think it's, well, I'm a follower of Jesus. It's just gonna happen. And then it doesn't. And then when that goal is not realized, you go and you talk to someone and say, hey, you know, I struggle with this.

And all that person has to say is, well, you know, glad you came and told me that must be hard. You know, has it been difficult with not being able to eat foods that you wanna eat at times because you're struggling with this and empathizes with you to some extent, but there really isn't like an action plan and a like, I mean, this is why people like Jordan Peterson, even though he's not a Christian, it's like the dad getting in your face, clean your room, right?

Get it together. That needs to be there too, to some extent. I mean, Paul, he does that with Timothy. There's a gentleness, but there is also a, there's imperatives. And so where do the imperatives come in of, and like a concrete, let's go, let's figure something out here.

So there's not a lot of that in this. And there's not a lot of that that I've heard from Sam Albury's ministry. So when you don't have that, it doesn't seem like there's many answers because the thing that would, that Sam Albury, you would think the thing that would help Christians is because he struggled with this, he can show people how to overcome it.

That's what Ron Riesco, Bobby Lopez, Darren Mel, that all the guys I've had on my podcast, that's what they've all said to me. I mean, they've all, this has been something they've all had to overcome in being a Christian.

And each of their stories look a little different, but it's work, it's battle, it's war. It's not war for nothing. And you have to have someone who's gonna, you have to have at least in yourself a drive towards being rid of this sin, just dying to it, mortifying it.

If that's not present, then, and it's just kind of a kumbaya type session, then you're not gonna really get anywhere. And that's the concern I have. And it's what's missing from even a podcast like this.

That practical stuff is just missing. It's more of a message to the church on how they should be gentle with homosexuals than it is a message of repentance, a rescue message of sanctification for homosexuals who are caught in this.

So he found out homosexuality was more common and that helped him, that helped him realize he wasn't alone. And I wanna say this, that is a good thing because churches should, we should at least let people know.

And I don't, now you may not have to do it as much, but there should, I don't think you have to go out and say homosexuality, but I think just sexual sin, you can say, look, this is common demand, that these are the kinds of things people struggle with.

And let, there should be an environment in your church of approachability. If you have leadership that's not approachable on sin, you need to find new leadership, okay? And I don't mean, leadership is gonna obviously wanna help you, right?

So if you're so, if you're so weak that you can't take a critique of your sin, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about if you have leadership that literally just reams you out and doesn't have any encouragement and doesn't bear the burdens with you, and doesn't weep with you, then you need to find a new leader.

You need to find another church. I mean, that's necessary for someone who's gonna watch over your soul. They have to be people who are hospitable and are, they're familiar with their congregation enough and the issues that go on there that they can, they're not gonna be shocked when you say things and they're gonna help you overcome.

That's part of their job. So Sam Allenberry here is, in his story, he's, there's these assumptions behind there that kind of he is, this is how he's wired somehow. And the right approach is the approach his pastor took, but it doesn't seem to involve much in the way of concrete plan of action.

Let's mortify this. It's more of just an understanding session. And then it goes to this. I'm gonna skip ahead a little bit. We're gonna go about 10 minutes ahead. And Sam Allenberry talks about how he, at what point in this whole development, he decided, you know what, now I need to be one of the guys.

I think that the Lord's calling me to speak on this. Listen to the reason why he thinks that.

In around 2012, that was when in the UK, you were really seeing the cultural shifts happen very, very obviously around you. People I had trained with at seminary were beginning to change in their convictions.

You were feeling the cultural pressure that we were going through our own national conversation about gay marriage at that stage. And I just had this burden on my heart that I, and typically what you'd hear is some very lovely-sounding gay rights activist presenting the case for same-sex marriage, and then some cranky conservative saying, well, it's all wrong.

And I just thought we need someone from inside this topic to speak to it. And I just had a burden. I just wanted people to know that Jesus' word to people in my situation is a good word. It's not easy, but it's a good word.

And it was, I couldn't, I was getting to the stage where I couldn't not say that. So I had to say to the, I was working for a church at the time, I had to say to the rest of the church leadership, I was an assistant pastor, I said, I really feel like I need to say something.

They all knew anyway, I'd been open with them about this particular struggle. And so they gave their blessing on that. So I first shared with our church family. In a prayer meeting, then wrote a little article for them, waited a month or two, then posted that article online.

And it, everything's just kind of blew up after that. It took off from there. Did that go viral? It did, TGC picked it up and ran with it. And what I hadn't realized, two things I hadn't anticipated. One was that I would actually feel quite comfortable talking.

Okay, so here's the problem that Sam Albury helped navigate. And I think this is where his goals and TGC's goals kind of line up. Look at the position that you have the cranky, he says cranky. I mean, it's interesting the word choice in this for those who would be more conservative trying to hold to a biblical sexual ethic.

It's cranky. I think at one point he might say in this angry, that there's these angry kind of cranky people. And then there's the homosexual activists, which you don't hear the same pejoratives, the negative terms at least used about.

And then there's him. Then there's, he just wants to let people know that Jesus has a good word. Well, Jesus, obviously his word is repent, right? Jesus wants people to repent from even their desires that are not in accord with God's.

And so it's kind of, it sidesteps the culture war, so to speak, right? Cause it's like, that's the culture we're going on. They're fighting, but I don't see myself as represented by either of those sides.

I'm going to kind of create this new third side or at least represent this other perspective, which is, as you can hear Sam Albury, a much more gentle, if there is fire, the fire is gonna be a directed more towards, it sounds like the cranky conservative.

And he's going to kind of come in and present a more, a reasonable, a less angry, a less cranky perspective on this that shows that, well, it's wrong, but, but there's this kind of exception carved out as we'll see.

And that's, in my mind, it's so interesting. Cause I mean, I remember at that time in the United States, I mean, the same thing is going on that there's battles over this whole issue and there should have been.

And honestly, people should be angry about that, that there's public profaning of marriage every day, that this isn't like a old traditional thing that we've lived with for years either. It's an innovation within most of our lifetimes that this took place.