Mega Edition: Examining a Sam Allberry Podcast

Conversations That Matter

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:11

For the last two days we've had N .D. Perkins on the podcast to talk about his new book

00:19

Dangerous Affirmations and I think we had a good discussion and one of the things if you listened

00:26

I asked him at the end was what do you think about Sam Albury because Sam Albury is probably the top name

00:33

I hear from other Christians who want to navigate this issue of homosexuality as a resource that's being recommended to them so he's going to speak at our church or my pastor recommended him

00:48

I know he actually came when I was living in Lynchburg he came to Lynchburg during that time

00:53

I think I might have been on a small trip the day he came but it was a church in town which of course a church that presented itself as conservative and everything and so people wouldn't have thought anything different they would have thought he's giving a really orthodox view of this this is the

01:09

Christian understanding he's going to help us navigate this I remember even when

01:14

I was in school there was a classmate who really wanted to get into apologetics and in case you don't listen regularly

01:22

I just had an episode recently where I talked about this and I said look the apologetics community if you want to call it that it almost functions like its own denomination but they've really fumbled with this whole social justice issue including homosexuality like they've really fumbled they really want to keep talking about atheism and other things but this is one of the areas where it's just obvious to me that they become a when they're you know a strong lion when it comes to atheism they become a little bitty farm cat when it comes to issues like homosexuality where they want to have this like well we'll proclaim the truth technically but we also want to carve out some kind of an exception or some kind of a category where someone can technically be gay or same -sex attracted or whatever term you want to put there but there they have some kind of a there's a difference in their temptations affections desires in that it's okay to some extent they want to carve out something there and and that's what

02:31

I've seen when it's when the topic is even addressed because oftentimes it's just avoided but you can't avoid it anymore and so Sam Albury I think is one of these guys that he at least talks about it right that's

02:43

I mean his whole ministry seems to be crafted around this now and that might not even be his doing that might just because of the demand but the demand seems to be in elite

02:53

Christian circles especially find people who identify as gay or same -sex attracted or homosexual find someone who might have lived that lifestyle actually no they don't really do that as much do they because I know several people who have lived that lifestyle who they don't really want much to do with because those people are saying you can be delivered from this and that's what you should strive for and they don't do that they're not gonna go knocking on the door of Darren Mel or Bobby Lopez or Juan Riesco or maybe probably even someone like a

03:25

Steven Bennett there I just don't see that happening really but they what they want is someone who identifies to they want like I'm Rebecca McLaughlin right they want a

03:35

Sam Albury they want some of the people who have spoken at revoice people who have this quote experience who can then come in and tell the church how to address this and I would like to point out something to you before we get into this this is no different than what they do on the issue of critical race theory right now they in their minds they think of it as racism but it's not it's not racism they're addressing it's there it's the issue is not racism it's social justice okay and they bring someone in they want a black person and by the way conservatives are guilty of doing this too to some extent maybe not as extensive but to some extent where the person who's the most qualified is the black person to talk about critical race theory or to talk about racism there's this sometimes unacknowledged assumption or with think about it this way with the caring well stuff the me too stuff and the

04:32

SBC let's bring in all these people who claim to have abuse abuse victim stories they're the ones that are going to educate us on this topic what's the common thread here well it's it's the standpoint theory stuff it's that you need people with an experience to then lecture or instruct those without the experience because the experience is the determinative thing now

04:54

I'm not saying that experience isn't helpful or that experience should be disregarded or stories aren't powerful

05:01

I'm not saying any of that I'm not saying those things that there's not a use there or that God doesn't allow people to have certain experiences so that he can use them later in certain ways

05:10

I'm not saying that what I'm saying is the assumption that that by nature of having an experience gives you authority because others have barriers to their understanding because they lack an experience that's the part of this that's wrong and so the reason

05:26

I know that it's not about just having an experience but it's about having a certain kind of experience is because of the dearth of people who are qualified by the way to speak about the subject of homosexuality but the dearth of them that are selected to be on the conference circuit who have come out of it and don't identify it as it anymore so they say

05:52

I'm not a homosexual I have a family you too can be like me you can come out of this you can serve the

06:00

Lord you can beat this desire with the help of Jesus you can however you want to phrase that or think of that mechanism of coming from homosexuality to heterosexuality or perhaps more biblically coming from a state of sin and disordered desires to a state of ordered desires according to God's creation design that whole process people who have gone through it they are not as respected or platformed as those who still claim to have this fixed identity and that's what kind of gives it away to me that they're looking for a certain kind of of person uh they they want there's a certain kind of um of a pedigree and and we could talk about it and flesh it out more but I see standpoint theory written all over this and there seems to be a bit of a political maneuver it doesn't mean that everyone involved in this is aware of that but big picture here when you look at all the things that are happening compare it to the things that aren't happening that should be then you start to understand you start to realize that this is moving the needle in a certain direction so Sam Albury is in my mind he's he's at the top of the list as far as Christian uh and and I think he even is called by many an apologist

07:25

Christian apologists who are tackling this issue he's the go -to guy he's the expert he's the one you should talk to and when

07:34

I talked to MD Perkins about this and asked him MD basically said well Sam's hard Sam's a hard case because he says some good things and then he says some things that are confusing he says some bad things and it's like you don't really know exactly where Sam lines up it's it's hard for for someone like MD and I understand that with with someone like Sam Albury we've talked about him actually before in the podcast we've examined uh some panels and we actually recently did a whole thing on a panel that he was on but I thought let's let let's look at something else let's look at something newer and um and this the reason

08:09

I want to do this is it came across my uh my email just yesterday so literally as I'm having this discussion with MD someone without knowing that I had had this discussion sends me an email and says look at this

08:25

I'm subscribed to Paul David Tripp's podcast or ministry and he said

08:31

Paul David Tripp sends me an email and advertises you got to watch this this uh thing with Sam Albury and and some of the questions they're supposed to ask in fact

08:41

I'll pull it up as so I can get the phrasing right but they're supposed to ask questions like you know is

08:46

God anti -gay which is the question of Sam Albury's first book on the topic and uh here

08:53

I'm pulling it up now I'll just read for you uh what is this is from Paul David Tripp's ministry and that's the podcast we're going to be looking at so this was recorded

09:02

I think back in February but it's being advertised now and uh and it's got

09:08

Tim Keller's endorsement of Sam Albury it's got and it is what Paul Tripp says we are in a moment when society is asking questions like never before who are we what do our bodies mean what does sex mean what is gender anyway the discussion should not make us afraid because God has answered these questions for us in his word

09:23

I am thankful for Sam Albury and I'm sure when you finish this episode you will be too and the whole way the episode starts or the email starts off it says is

09:32

God anti -gay does being single mean you cannot experience intimacy this is interesting word choice how do

09:40

Christians respond to a culture that's trying to redefine gender and these are questions

09:45

Sam Albury's wrestled with he's he's in a pastor he's an apologist and most recently a guest so we're going to go through this podcast

09:51

I mean these are the questions that are supposed to be answered and in a biblical way and let's let's look at the way that Sam Albury actually answers these questions and I think this will help you understand whether or not

10:02

Sam Albury is actually helpful for Christians uh today to navigate this issue

10:09

I think there's some appeal he has as far as the way he communicates is very it sounds intellectual probably because he has a

10:15

British accent and it also sounds very gentle and there does need to be um there does need to be some grace for those who are repentant who want to who are desiring to follow

10:26

Jesus and want to get out of this snare just like we would with any sin but there has to also be a point of very direct biblical ethics applied the law coming to bear and that's what

10:41

I see lacking the most in this whole Christian apologetics world when they address this topic and I think it somewhat lacks in Sam Albury as well the way he um navigates this so you'll you'll you'll see whether or not my conclusions about Sam Albury are correct by going over some of the clips

11:00

I think and I'm going to just let you know about some of the pitfalls I see here but I want to be positive as well and just commend to you at least and some of the things that I think that make

11:12

Sam Albury attractive to individuals and that is one of them that his gentleness and so we we need to have

11:18

I think gentleness and reverence right that's what the bible calls us but righteous indignation is sometimes also part of what we need to do as Christians we need to encourage the weak right we need to correct the faint -hearted or admonish the unruly

11:35

I guess sorry correct the faint -hearted I got that all wrong admonish the unruly help the weak and encourage the faint -hearted and we need to do some triage sometimes in counseling situations but admonishment is certainly part of this so we're going to start somewhere in the middle here

11:53

Sam Albury goes through his testimony and talks about when he came to the realization in his mind that he was homosexual and I'm going to skip ahead to 25 minutes in and I think his testimony

12:08

I think that's one of the compelling things is that he has this story of struggle and of feeling kind of unwanted perhaps in the church and like he didn't fit and and so here he is though and and this is what um here's kind of the crux

12:28

I think of one of the issues involved in this whole thing is whether or not God makes one a homosexual or a heterosexual and Sam Albury doesn't come out and answer it in he doesn't articulate it exceptionally clear in a clear fashion but I think what he does give you is something that when if you think about it it will drive you towards a conclusion and I don't think it's a very good conclusion so here's

12:57

Sam Albury remember our deal or our goal less less probable that some of these things will happen by the time

13:03

I'm 30 um well are you are you talking about this at the time with your youth group leader anybody else it's just internally you're kind of going through this told us all okay still how long so he's saying right here

13:15

I haven't told anyone that he's uh saying I that I'm homosexual actually

13:22

I think I should skip it uh before this just a little bit you know blow at the time partly because a

13:30

Jesus is good so if this if this is what the goodness looks like that's okay I can trust him with that also

13:38

I was also thinking well now that I'm a Christian these feelings will just evaporate anyway and I'll meet a girl and I'm okay so he hasn't told anyone that he is homosexual uh and or has these desires

13:52

I should say right that's I think how he's just saying he's identifying now as he's same -sex attracted so he has these desires and he doesn't say it but he's thinking

14:03

I'm a Christian so these things are just going to dissipate it'll go away and and this is what happens they don't go away that's basically it remember turning 20 thinking okay by the time

14:15

I turn 30 I will be married with kids that's my goal um so I just assumed you know these other desires will just disappear as I follow

14:26

Jesus and everything else will kind of be made right and then they weren't no and that that was the one time

14:33

I felt some frustration with the Lord yeah it was probably in my mid -20s where I was thinking this is getting tight timing wise yeah yeah we're getting closer to 30

14:46

God yeah yeah it's becoming sort of remember our deal or our goal less less probable that some of these things will happen by the time

14:53

I'm 30 um well are you are you talking about this okay so this is

15:00

I think one of the key elements here and this is part of his experience I know he has talked about this in a more assertive manner in other places but it the thing

15:10

I want you to look for and and ask yourself is you have an experience all right any experience if it is related to or involves ethical decisions uh ethical conclusions what determines how you view that experience as a

15:37

Christian so is it the Word of God and what the Word of God says about that particular topic if we believe the

15:43

Word of God does in fact is sufficient for all things pertaining to life and godliness if it equips the man of God fully then is are you searching the

15:55

Word of God and finding out what does God say about this and then you imposing that upon your experience or at least interpreting your experience by that or do you then use your experience do you do the opposite way like I have an experience and now

16:11

I have to go try to fit this somehow into my theology or figure out a theology that will make sense of the experience

16:20

I have right so do you you make sense of the

16:25

Word of God based on your experience or you make sense of your experience based on the Word of God's clear teaching and I think probably all three of these individuals would say well we're just trying to we want the

16:36

Word of God to be the authority here but I think what actually is happening and downstream I think from Sam Albury when he teaches this stuff the opportunity is given there to for something kind of dangerous he is going through his 20s saying well my feelings haven't changed

16:54

I I have this artificial goal now maybe that's not the goal he should have had I don't know that's that's between him and God but he had this assumption that seems like it was a wrong assumption that he would he would uh by by the time he was 30 that's the deadline have kids is that something that not the 30 thing but having kids having a wife and kids is that a good aspiration we'd have to say yes of course it is that's

17:19

God wants us to be fruitful multiply fill the earth marriage is a good thing God invented it created it's a picture of Christ in the church it's it's beautiful right so so there's nothing wrong with that but what he doesn't talk about is taking active steps now maybe he did but he doesn't talk about it here taking active steps towards trying to bring that about in fact one of the reasons

17:41

I know that there's probably something lacking here is he says I didn't tell anyone so I didn't tell any his pastor his he didn't tell anyone about this during his his it wasn't until his late 20s but yet he still has this expectation that at 30

17:57

I'm going to have these desires are going to go away I'll have a wife I'll have kids by that time so the tools that God has given us uh include our our leaders our pastors right our they're the ones watching over our souls they're the ones that help us walk through some of these difficult situations and at this point as he's talking about his story he hasn't told anyone about this but he's just kind of had this experience privately and so should the conclusion be drawn from this that well

18:31

I guess you're that's just the way you are you're just a same -sex attracted person you might as well you know don't create expectations of having a wife and family don't pursue that goal let's pursue something else pursue singleness

18:46

Christ -centered singleness pursue I don't know uh just other things that don't involve sexuality pursue these friendships that can somehow give you a level of intimacy that's not marriage but at least it's something is that uh is that a right take from this that's the question so um so so at this point in Sam Albury's life he he isn't using at least all the tools that God and I don't know all the circumstances but the tools that God has given would include leaders helping us through these things and he just he he doesn't create a an assumption a goal as much as he creates an assumption and when it's unmet when his assumption his deadline is not met that's when something happens that's when he starts to kind of realize in his own mind that well this is part of my identity

19:41

I guess right so feelings of same -sex attraction thinking he's gay then he becomes a

19:47

Christian this is my identity now so because I'm a Christian I'm going to change the change didn't happen the way

19:52

I thought it was going to happen in the time frame I thought it was going to happen therefore now

19:57

I can fuse I can I can take that gay identity and fuse it with my Christianity because I guess that's who

20:03

I am instead I'd like to just suggest there are other options out there make war on this thing and that would include finding spiritual accountability and and a leader that can help you with this that would include not making specific deadlines of expectations that I'll be married with a wife and kids by the time

20:24

I'm 30 I by the way I'm one that had that expectation by the way that I'd be married with a wife and kids by the time

20:30

I was 30 and I was married but I didn't have kids and so should I assume that God just wants me to never have kids you know that I guess it's just not going to happen no right

20:39

I keep pursuing that I keep that that's that's something that I think is a good desire it's a right desire it's a

20:46

God -ordained thing and because of that I don't give up on that and that's with Sam Albury I mean he could have just as easily been a heterosexual who thought

20:56

I'll have a wife and kids by the time I'm 30 it didn't happen I guess I'm doomed to singleness right so I know

21:02

I'm injecting way more commentary than video we've watched we'll watch more video but I just have a lot of thoughts on this and this is so subtle the conclusions that can be drawn from this kind of thing and the analysis you're about to hear it's so subtle and it sounds kind of so good but you've got to watch out for the logical conclusion that the what can be extrapolated from the assumptions that you're hearing at the time with your youth group leader anybody else it's just internally you're kind of going through this told us all okay still how long before you began to it was it was my mid it was my late 20s before I told anyone and and why was that was this fear explain it was it was it was fear

21:50

I thought you're not supposed to have these feelings if you're a Christian I've got all these new Christian friends that I love they may not want to be my friends if they really knew what some of the things that I am tempted by I was just I was already very soon after I came to faith

22:07

I felt a call to pastoral ministry counter -intuitively I grew up with a massive fear of public speaking but I felt a call about six months after I came to faith that I was going to be a preacher wow so and I was just beginning to explore we're gonna he's gonna come back to this later on in this talk he's gonna talk a little bit more about whether or not you should expect

22:32

God to give you a family or not so I don't I can't remember or not if he goes off more on that particular subject here but we're gonna come back to it let's go to this next

22:44

I want to do this in sequential order he he finds out this is a big piece of his of the puzzle

22:51

I think in in his story which I mean he shares his story a lot that's why I'm going over it the story the the teaching comes from to some degree the story and so this is when he found out that homosexuality was more common and it helped him back in the early 2000s where people were like statistically in a side in the room this says there are several people wrestle with this and people going oh

23:15

I didn't realize it was maybe a common thing that was that a sense of relief for you oh hugely because you then said and if this is you please know that you're not on your own and we'd love to support you and so someone was basically saying

23:29

I see you yeah I know you're there yeah I want you to come and talk to me and it's okay it's going to be safe so I had recently preached my first sermon at that church post kind of ordination so I was due to meet with him anyway um to review that kind of like you know critique it pick through the wreckage of that anyway here's all the things yes um you do not have a future as a pastor

23:57

I like your shirt let's start with the positives you have a you have a nice voice um so I arranged to meet him anyway and I said he said let's meet up and go through your sermon for a couple of weeks ago and I said to him yes and there's something else

24:13

I'd like to talk to you about as well okay I thought I'm gonna make myself have to talk about this other thing yeah so we we met up that week we picked through my sermon um and then he said so what's the other thing what's the other thing at that moment

24:29

I wished I'd never said that there was another thing so I said

24:35

I'm I'm really struggling with homosexuality I think those are my exact words and then sort of braced myself for you know the ceiling to fall down and for fire to engulf the room or something and he he could not have been more reassuring he he just looked at me for a moment and smiled and said thank you so much and he said that that sounds like that was a difficult thing to share and I'm so grateful that you shared that with me and I just thought

25:04

I just felt a profound relief yeah okay this was this was the right thing to do yeah yeah and then he didn't then sort of whack me over the head with 1st

25:15

Corinthians 6 or anything he just said how long have you been aware of this and he just asked me some gentle questions you know what's it been like for you have you been in love has that been painful um just empathetic uh and no doubt this was building a framework for how you would talk about it oh yeah on the other side of all those sorts of conversations um but it it was it was a pastoral master class as well as being personally just such a a tonic and relief and a balm so the reason

25:47

I wanted to play this for you is because this has worked its way into Sam Albury's ministry and there's a really good side to this in the sense that if a

25:59

Christian is saying I'm struggle that's a good keyword here struggling okay so not not

26:04

I'm identifying as but I'm struggling with this temptation towards this particular sin and they bring this up with their pastor and their pastor is gentle and receptive and and then

26:18

I mean he doesn't really talk about this but let's just assume the best that then he brings in the the gospel and says that these are sinful desires and temptations but this is what

26:29

Jesus did for you um which actually that's not really what I hear Sam Albury saying but at least there's a spirit of gentleness there and receptivity and so that spirit should definitely be present if someone comes in good faith like that then you give them the gospel but the law is going to be part of that too and that's the thing that I see missing from so much of this is there's an acknowledgement that the

26:51

I mean in fact later on in the podcast they the law gets brought up there's an acknowledgement that well the law means you need to follow

26:57

Jesus but an actual like direct confrontation of like it what you're doing is wrong yeah this isn't okay like thank you for sharing with me that thank you thank you for coming to me that must be hard I've had my sins and struggles and uh and and this is sin is common to man and and then glorify

27:19

Jesus Jesus this is what Jesus did to and we need to flee to him we need to repent of that we need here

27:26

I'm going to work with you through this I'm going to weep with you I'm going to that that seems to be the missing piece in my mind here the let's let's get you from a to b and I'm here to help shoulder that I'm and Jesus is there he is the he's the answer to this he's the one that did shoulder your sin already on the cross and it's defeated and we need to behave in that way that sin shall no longer reign in our mortal bodies to obey its lust that we're a new creation in Christ that we these are realities that we need to believe and we need to let our feelings then come in line under those realities and it's going to take work it's going to take time look even gluttony is hard diets take time right limiting yourself from food

28:12

I mean look if hey with when's I mean if you not not to I'm not trying to make a joke out of this at all but the gluttony is a sin and let's say it doesn't mean being fat to sin by the way gluttony is a sin so overindulgence in food let's say by the it manifests itself obviously most of the time in someone who uh is overweight and so let's say someone who has a problem with gluttony says you know by the time

28:35

I'm 30 really think I'm going to be a marathon runner and then it doesn't it doesn't really you don't tell anyone you struggle with this but um that one's a little difficult because it's a little more obvious but let's say you don't tell anyone and you don't seek any help really you just think it's well

28:52

I'm follower of Jesus it's just going to happen and then it doesn't and then when that goal is not realized you you go and you talk to someone and say hey you know

29:01

I struggle with this and all that person has to say is well you know you glad you came and told me that must be hard you know has it been difficult with um not being able to eat foods that you want to eat at times because you're struggling with this and empathizes with you to some extent but there really isn't like an action plan and a like um

29:21

I mean that's why people like Jordan Peterson even though he's not a Christian it's like the dad getting in your face clean your room right get it together there that that needs to be there too to some extent uh

29:32

I mean Paul he does that with Timothy there's a gentleness but there is also a there there's imperatives and so where do the imperatives come in of and and a like a concrete let's go let's figure something out here so um there's not a lot of that in this and there's not a lot of that that I've heard from Sam Albury's ministry so that so when you don't have that it doesn't seem like there's many answers because the thing that would that Sam Albury you would think the thing that would help

30:05

Christians is because he struggled with this he can show people how to overcome it that's that's what Ron Riesco um

30:11

Bobby Lopez Darren Mell that all the guys I've had on my podcast that's what they've all said to me

30:16

I mean they've all this has been something they've all had to overcome in being a Christian and each of stories look a little different but it's work it's battle it's war it's not war for nothing and you have to have someone who's gonna you have to have at least in yourself a drive towards being rid of this sin just dying to it mortifying it if that's not present then and it's just kind of a kumbaya type session then you're not going to really get anywhere and that's the concern

30:53

I have and it's what's missing from even a podcast like this the practical stuff is just missing it's more of a message to the church on how they should be gentle with homosexuals than it is a message of repentance a rescue message of sanctification for homosexuals who are caught in this so he found so he found out homosexuality was more common and that helped him that that helped him realize he wasn't alone and and I want to say this that is a good thing because churches should we should at least let people know and I don't now you may not have to do it as much but there there should

31:38

I don't think you have to go out and say homosexuality but I think just sexual sin you can say look this is common demand that these are the kinds of things people struggle with and let there should be an environment in your church of approachability if you have leadership that's not approachable on sin you need to find new leadership okay and and I don't mean leader leadership is going to obviously want to help you right so if you're so if you're so weak that you can't take a critique of your sin that's not what

32:11

I'm talking about I'm talking about if you have leadership that literally just reams you out and doesn't have any encouragement and doesn't bear the burdens with you and doesn't weep with you and then you need to find a leader you need to find another church

32:21

I mean that that's necessary for someone who's going to watch over your soul they have to be people who are hospitable and are they're familiar with their congregation enough and the issues that go on there that they can they're not going to be shocked when you say things and they're going to help you overcome that's part of their job so Sam Albury here is he in his story he's there's these assumptions behind there that kind of he is this is how he's wired somehow and the right approach is the approach his pastor took but it doesn't seem to involve much in the way of concrete plan of action let's let's mortify this it's more of just an understanding session and uh and then it it goes to this

33:14

I'm gonna skip ahead a little bit um we're gonna go about 10 minutes ahead and Sam Albury talks about how he at what point in in this whole development he decided you know what now

33:28

I need to be one of the guys I I think that the Lord's calling me to speak on this listen to the reason why he thinks that in 20 around 2012 that was when in the

33:40

UK we were really good you were really seeing the cultural shifts happen very very obviously around you people

33:49

I had trained with at seminary were beginning to change in their convictions um you were feeling the cultural pressure that we were going through our own national conversation about gay marriage at that stage and I just had this burden on my heart that I and and typically what you'd hear is some very lovely sounding gay rights activist presenting the case for the same sex marriage and then some cranky conservative saying why it's all wrong right and I just thought we need someone from inside this topic to speak to it and I just had a burden

34:26

I just wanted people to know that that Jesus word to people in my situation is a good word it's not easy but it's a good word and I it was

34:35

I couldn't I was getting to the stage where I couldn't not say that so I had to say to the

34:41

I was working for a church at the time I had to say to the the rest of the church leadership I was an assistant assistant pastor

34:47

I said I really feel like I need to say something they all knew anyway I'd been open with them about this particular struggle and so they they gave their blessing on that so I first shared with our church family um in a prayer meeting then wrote a little article for them waited a month or two then posted that article online um and it everything just kind of blew up after that took off from there did that go viral it did

35:20

TGC picked it up and ran with it okay um and what I hadn't realized two things

35:26

I hadn't anticipated one was that I would actually feel quite comfortable talking okay so here's the problem that Sam Albury helped navigate and I think this is where his goals and TGC's goals kind of line up he look at the position that you have the cranky he says cranky

35:45

I mean it's interesting the word choice in this for those who would be more conservative trying to hold to a biblical sexual ethic it's it's cranky

35:55

I think at one point he might say uh in this angry uh that there's these angry kind of cranky people and then there's the homosexual activists which you don't hear the same pejoratives the negative terms at least used about and then there's him then there's he just wants to let people know that Jesus has a good word well

36:16

Jesus obviously his word is repent right Jesus wants people to repent from even their desires that are not in accord with gods and so it's it's kind of uh it's sidesteps the culture war so to speak right because it's like that's the culture war going on they're fighting but I don't see myself as represented by either of those sides

36:40

I'm going to kind of create this new third side or at least represent this this other perspective which is as you can hear

36:49

Sam Albury a much more gentle if there is fire the fire is going to be a directed more towards it sounds like the the cranky conservative uh and he's going to kind of come in and present a uh a more a reasonable a less angry a less cranky uh perspective on this that shows that well it's wrong but but there's this kind of exception carved out as we'll see and that's in my mind it's so interesting because I mean

37:21

I remember at that time in the United States I mean the same thing is going on that there's there's battles over this whole issue and there should have been and honestly people should be angry about that that there's public profaning of marriage every day that this is this isn't like a old traditional thing that we've lived with for years either it's an innovation within most of our lifetimes that this took place and it's an evil innovation and to to get angry about it would be a natural response if just having jealousy for God and his law would be that would be a natural response um it's it's not it like that's it's not a sinful thing necessarily or a wrong thing necessarily to be angry about that or or cranky

38:07

I guess as Albury likes to say does it mean there aren't people like Westboro Baptist out there that the media you know just love to gravitate towards to try to portray everyone the way that Westboro Baptist was sure yeah there was very few people but there were some people like that that were but they're more more often than not though the people who were opposed to this and were angry about it were angry about it because they recognized that this was evil that this was a step in a wrong direction and that's the thing that I that I bristle at when

38:43

I hear gospel coalition types saying when I hear them say like what you just heard

38:49

Sam Albury say or that there's these these two extreme polls that are neither of them are Christian and I'm going to come in and represent

38:54

Christianity and it's like well yeah obviously there's non -Christians on a political conservative side of things not now the politically conservative side is embracing homosexuality it's so weird they're just against transgender sports right but at the time uh it was maybe the last gasping breath of a

39:12

Christian civilization and the the influence that it once held in people some of whom weren't even

39:20

Christians but they were still willing to uphold a standard and they recognized evil when they saw it and our detectors for recognizing evil are so off now and if anything we owe a debt or at least a maybe an a thank you to the people who did risk their reputations and did take stands at that time even when it was unpopular even when it did a lot of damage to them and and there were many

39:43

I mean I remember what the CEO of uh I think it was Mozilla uh member because he supported

39:49

Proposition 8 in California was just raked over this was kind of pre -cancel culture but it was already happening people were running for the hills because you know the writing was on the wall the gay lobby had the momentum and it's a time of war and that's one of the things that we have to to I think recognize you have to think through when you have someone like a

40:10

Sam Albury going out there Sam Albury's not he may be doing personal counseling but what you the reason you know about him isn't because of a person in personal counseling session you had with him the reason you know about Sam Albury is because he's out there writing books and speaking at conferences major ones on this particular topic because he's the go -to guy on in the social realm okay public social realm and we're at war in that realm and Sam Albury does not have a war -like posture there are wartime leaders and there are peacetime leaders and I have my suspicion that Sam Albury wouldn't be the best in a counseling office on this issue either but let's say he was to take this kind of attitude to the public realm when you're at war just means that you're not really going to be you're not fighting the battle you're trying to get everyone's attention hey look over here look over here but it's a distraction from there's a real battle out there and um and that's that's part of the concern

41:09

I have with a someone like a Sam Albury too so he needed someone we needed someone from the inside to speak about it you know because someone from the inside well okay well to to condemn it to say

41:20

I was there and it's wrong and I agree we should be angry we should oppose this no that's not what he's saying someone from the inside to then go say

41:28

Jesus has a good word for you Jesus if you're you know homosexual Jesus come to Jesus he's got a good word for you okay but if you don't repent his word isn't a good word for you that needs to be part of it too

41:42

Jesus does not have a good word for people who do not repent of their sin yes he has a good word for someone who's repentant and that's the work

41:51

Jesus does in you so it's not it's not works righteousness but it's it is uh the recognition that God changes an individual um fundamentally when he to to access the love that God has there is a there is a a change that happens in that person's soul to the point that their desires down to their very core desires start to change they want things they didn't want before Sam Albury claims to be a

42:20

Christian I mean this is something he should just desire so strongly to overcome to get rid of these desires these sinful desires not just to live with them not to get rid of them so someone from the inside someone with the experience someone to carry a certain message that's not the political message that's out there because if you talk to a

42:42

Darren Mell or a Bobby Lopez or a Juan Riesco uh they're going to be firmly on that cranky side of this is wrong and evil and we did live that we were from the inside we live and it's wrong it's an abomination that they're going to tell you to tell it to you but God is forgiving and we have experienced the the love of God and is that the message you hear from Sam Albury that's the question

43:09

I have all right let's uh let's skip forward a little bit bit in this because Sam Albury develops this point a little bit more bring his son too so if you're if you're a gay person right now

43:22

God is is offering you life in his son he's not against you if he's offering you everything you could ever need and want um now there are things he he says um you know not morally right so that there's things that will need to be repented of he's he clearly is prohibiting same -sex intimacy and relationships in that kind of way but he's so for us in that he's offering us

43:53

Christ has the okay and there's truth in this that's the thing there is absolute truth in this that God is but God here's a better way to phrase this

44:04

God is for himself and God is for his glory and God is for sinners coming to repentance which includes you if you want to make it personal you know make it but the call is to repent and and to believe the gospel so it's so here's the thing

44:24

God is for you but he's also if you refuse this uh today's the day of salvation if you refuse so great of a sal of a salvation though he is not for you he is against you and people need to be warned about this it's it's not he's for you because he's making an offer to you well that there has to be a connection here of some kind that offer needs to be activated and if it's not if you if it's rejected then that's

44:59

God is not for that God is for uh holiness he's not for sin and and there's many passages in scripture we can go to where God hates even specific groups of people i mean this is a hard concept i know for some people out there because he i mean some of you probably just almost swerved off the road as you're listening wait a minute

45:18

God hates people yeah i mean he hates the nickel a nickel Asians um he hates uh i mean seven things the

45:26

Lord hates yet six were an abomination and there's a whole list there's a vice list and uh you find not just activities but groups of people who participate in certain sins uh of course there's the

45:38

Romans nine passage there's there's a lot of passages David even prays lord do i not hate those who hate thee i mean there's so there is there is a holy hatred and God can have both he can have a holy love a sacrificial love a an offer that goes out of repentance and a hatred too for those who practice sin these things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive that that's a whole episode in and of itself i don't have time to do today but Sam Albury doesn't give if there's a balance

46:07

Sam Albury i think is kind of missing it a bit here because what he says is true but there's more to it right and that's that's what's missing and that's honestly what the culture that's what people out there need to hear that's what they need to know that there is judgment coming uh we're getting close to the time of Jonah going to Nineveh and just proclaiming judgment i mean and they all repent right that would be great but that's where we're at it's a misreading of the times i think too that you're that you have in here uh and maybe that's the difference between wartime and peacetime mentalities but Sam Albury you know it's so misleading for him to say uh

46:48

God because yeah this is in response to the question by Paul Tripp is God anti -gay and Sam Albury's like well look

46:53

God's not anti -you okay what does that mean yes God is anti -homosexuality he is and if you are if see this whole thing builds on itself if you have this identity this i'm a christian but i'm same -sex attracted that's part of my identity okay which

47:10

Sam Albury does so you're gay and that's what he used to say now he's the same -sex attracted but all right you have that and then uh he writes a book is

47:19

God anti -gay and he's asked the question hey what do you think of the title of that book what's the answer he says well

47:25

God's not anti -you and if and if you are gay right that's that the implication here what i think every reasonable person would come to the conclusion of is that well i guess

47:34

God's not anti -gay he's not because and but then the reason is is because well he's given you this opportunity to repent to come to his son he he loves you and of course yeah you need to get these few things right you need to repent you know but but but the the big thing that you need to realize is

47:49

God's not anti -you that is as clear as mud and know why md Perkins now said what he did about Sam Albury because it's so difficult to understand where this guy is coming from it's it's like you don't really get a straight answer to the question and it's not like it's a difficult question to answer you can answer it very easily nope uh

48:12

God is not anti a sinner who comes to repentance he's very much in favor of that but he is against those who engage in sin and are unrepentant of it it's that simple and that could be murder that could i mean you could what if the question was hey is

48:28

God anti -pedophilia and then well you know people who struggle with pedophilia

48:34

God's just not anti -you because he's giving you an opportunity to repent so you need to repent of that but you know you just got to know he's not anti -you you'd walk away like wait what so is he or is he not it like it's like no it's very clear he's anti that right he's totally against it all right um let's the confusing part is because they've made this ingrained part of your identity attraction defining yourself by your sin and your sinful desires so that it makes these kinds of questions so difficult for them all right uh he goes on he talks about how church culture is anti -gay should we play that i don't know if we let's play church culture being anti -gay yeah in many ways and and still is sadly in okay so the contrast

49:25

God is not anti -gay or at least he's not anti -you okay so so he couldn't quite answer that one clearly but the question is church culture anti -gay that he's clear on that one yeah they admit church culture is anti -gay so there's a discrepancy between the church and God in Sam Albury's mind here right the church is saying one thing but they're not representing

49:48

God that's a problem right that's a pretty that's a bad thing so he's got more fire towards the cranky conservatives in the church than he does for homosexuals he can kind of it's like a muttering under your breath well they got to kind of repent and do some things but yeah

50:04

God's for them uh and and but the church again i mean listen what he says about the church in not a few places and so what does that look like practically that that that anti -gay stance well it can it can look like a number of things that one of the areas where i i feel like i sniff it out most easily is when this sexual sin is treated very differently to other sexual sins so i've seen churches where it's fine to sleep around it's fine to to be on your fourth or fifth marriage but don't don't don't be gay um i'm gonna just confess we might have very different understandings or experiences with church like any church i've been a part of that is not the case at all but uh if there so so you have a church that's upholding a standard in one area and not in another let's say and let's say he's just given the benefit of the doubt that's all correct they're fine with people sleeping around apparently but not fine with them being homosexual well that's hypocrisy on the part of the church the the root issue with that though is not that the church is anti -gay that's not the problem okay the problem is the church is too soft on adultery and fornication right they're pro -adultery that's the way to frame it yeah i there's churches that are pro fornication you wouldn't frame it there's churches that are uh churches that are anti -gay that see the difference there um so a church that elevates one's sin and thinks it's fine before god and other sins aren't the the problem with the church is that they've carved out exceptions uh kind of like sam albury's carving out an exception for this ingrained identity of homosexual orientation of some kind whether by that name or another so there's uh the the way he's framing it is not a i would say an accurate or a helpful way to frame it because that's not the root issue with a church like that the church may have inherited a christian moral framework is still upholding somewhat of a christian standard and as society goes the direction it's going as these pillars fall one after another guess what that church is in danger of embracing homosexuality they've already caved on divorce and fornication so why wouldn't they cave on another sexual sin right as as as society embraces that particular and that would be the concern let's build up the walls let's make sure that you already have water in the boat don't let in more water but in sam albury's mind it's like you know it's like well is the church uh letting in uh are they is the church trying to fight against the water that's coming in and he's like well well no because look they've already let this other water in it's like no they actually a church like that probably is fighting to some extent but either they're ignorant or they're just hypocrites and they're not a real church so you you pick but it's it's just funny to me he makes this kind of like he makes a statement that's so broad it's like this is this is characteristic of the church maybe in england it is that's odd to me but if that is that would be the analysis not well we got to focus on their anti -gay let's focus on all right you got the homosexuality thing right because that's a sin but you're missing out on god's law when it comes to other issues you know an unmarried heterosexual couple will be given a lot of slack but a gay couple will be kind of you're not allowed in the church door unless you unless we tell you right now we don't agree with what you're doing yeah and i kind of think why why the difference there um now there is a difference guys in scripture we talked about this last week in a podcast about romans one and how it categorizes homosexuality of as and it's not me saying this it's just the word of god saying that these are basically unnatural desires um there is there is a difference there now so it's it's a it's a deeper level i wouldn't we say that pedophilia would be a deeper level of sexual sin you know hey why are they being harder on registered sex offenders than they are that someone who i know accidentally uh sinfully but accidentally um put themselves in a compromising situation with a girlfriend and experiences temptation to do that right because there's a reason for that it's because one is we're we're getting closer to natural desires that god's put there being exercised in ways that god hasn't ordained versus unnatural desires that um are the result of of as romans one says a worship of creation instead the creator so you're there's a difference here and the civil penalties even carry that there's a difference we have to make that distinction so to to basically say well churches should just flatline all sexual sins that would be wrong we shouldn't just flatline them all they're all evil they're all they'll send you to hell they're all should be repented of god has hope for anyone that's struggling with these things because jesus christ has taken on the punishment for those particular sins god treated him like the homosexual like the pedophile like the adulterer like the fornicator and poured his wrath out on jesus so that you can be free that's that's the good message of christianity so it's it's not a um it's not a message of like if you come to church and you you've got to start out with being completely free from all these these thoughts and temptations there's not one person that doesn't come with some level of sin that needs to be repented of but it's also not that you come to church and there's no distinctions made between sins there are distinctions and they should be there and it's hard not to think that there's homophobia in that yeah homophobia that's the sin of all this it's homophobia right it's homophobia uh no it's and i don't homophobia is is not the first one that should be on the list here and that's not even a sin in scripture that's that's such a psychologized category and charged word to say homophobia so uh would you say there for you there's a particular sacrifice of life that i don't face i can marry who the person i love i can have a family you will never never be able to have that um how does the lord meet you in that in that experience yeah and it depends which week you ask me to be honest this week i'm doing okay um but generally i i don't feel like i've been given a bad deal here um there's there's a few things to say on this i do know some people who are same -sex attracted who've been able to some of the other sex healthily happily honestly without kind of doing a bait and switch um so i wouldn't want anyone who's experiencing same -sex attraction to to think they will never be able to get married some good some they can um for some of us it feels less likely less realistic there are times not very often now there are still times that i'll pray to the lord and say i don't think you want me to get married but if you do i'm open to it yeah you're sovereign um she'll have to be fairly amazing and you know but i'm not i did in my 20s and in my 30s particularly at that age everyone else is every saturday in from from april through to october as a wedding uh that was a painful season because i just all my friends were becoming less available in their friendship um so that that felt difficult actually now i'm in my in my mid -40s i've never enjoyed being single so much partly because some of my peers are now getting to the stage where they're back in circulation again that the kids are sort of at the stage where they can be left alone right you know um they're like hey let's go and see the first matrix movie that kind of it's not you know um this is interesting and i just want to say this it hurts me in some ways to make it saddens me to watch it because i i do feel for sam albury and i think that's the draw that people have it's there's a a natural sense someone gets i think when they listen to him that oh man you know you're you're you're you're kind of deprived here and it's the same sympathy unfortunately you would have though towards someone who's um maybe disabled or experienced a tragedy of some kind and is unable or prevented from uh from doing something that they really want to do but you have to ask the question what's the thing sam albury really wants to do here and i i don't want to be too graphic on this especially if there's kids listening i'm trying to even think how to phrase it there's a relational aspect to this and that's all they're really talking about right now but there's more than a relational aspect to it in an emotional sense there's a sexual aspect to this to homosexuality it's often ignored in these kinds of discussions no one wants to ask that question so you know what is it what's the kind of thing you're tempted to think about other men what's the kind of thing that you're desiring to do with them what's we don't go there christians don't go there in these scenarios but it's a package deal that's part of it that's not otherwise what are we talking about i mean he can be friends with other guys right what's he what are we really talking about when we're talking about i'll never be able to get married or i'll never experience the things i'm glad to hear him at least say that he's he thinks it's extremely unlikely but he's open to it at least there's an openness to it i would want to see and and so and this is something that i'm thinking through you can put comments in the comment section if you have a thought on this i asked one riesco this question i said one because he struggled or he lived he was in san francisco living this out to its you know nth degree i said look you're a christian now you got a family you got kids do you ever like is that a struggle for you ever is that something that comes up that you know how does this work because you hear all these things from like tgc types about like it's this constant struggle that and you kind of just have to realize that maybe it'll never go away and one was just like yeah that's stupid like i don't know if he said that word exactly stupid but he just said that that is foolish so we use that word he said uh he said i don't focus on that that's not i i live like i mean this is a guy you know working all the time doing a business he's he's busy he's got kids but he's enjoying his family enjoying his kids and his wife he's not going deep into his head about you know these kinds of desires he's not asking himself those questions he's just believing what god said about him he's obeying god and he doesn't even entertain those things it's like you know if a thought comes you just put it away like you don't that's not something and and i'm not going to say his experience is normative for everyone that it's that easy for everyone that it's it's going to be more difficult for some people the hill might be harder to climb but you can still climb it that's the point jesus was tempted in all points yet without sin he's our example we're called to be holy because he is holy he's given us the holy spirit he's given us the word of god he's given us other christians he's given us pastors he's given us all kinds of tools and resources he's given us a mission to occupy our time with he's given us talents and abilities to occupy our time with and i think we would do well no matter what the sin is to don't give it any fuel just focus when your mind is so filled with things that are good and right and holy and you don't have room for these other things to come in repent when they do don't define yourself by it and expect the best expect that jesus is bringing you from from sin to sanctification he's sanctifying you you're in a process and the hope is the hope should be there that there's no hope in this what's the hope here like well i can get by i can the struggle isn't quite as bad uh i i've just kind of come to terms with it well there's some things you're going to have to come to terms with if you lose your arm as an amputee you're not getting your arm back unless god does some kind of miracle but you're likely you you're like that's not a sin related thing this is a sin related thing this is you know i just have to live kind of with this sin this these evil desires no you don't no you don't and i don't think that should be the expectation set your expectations higher than that well what if i'm discouraged well don't look at it like it's got to be married with kids by 30 like sam albury did look at it like every day is going to be a little bit better than the day before every week every month every year better than it was last year i'm gonna excel we're gonna things are gonna get better and the righteous man falls seven times gets back up you just get back up and you keep fighting and you put to death uh those thoughts and those those inclinations i don't see the fight here i just don't see the hope here i don't see the expectation that jesus is going to do something the holy spirit's going to do something um i'm using the tools he's given me i mean have you resisted to the point of of bloodshed are you sweating the drops of blood that jesus did in the garden is uh that seems to be the thing that's missing and and and this is this weak generation that already has a hard time with well if it's hard i'll just give up they don't need this they don't need this at all uh all right let's um let's see here got so i want to say one positive thing at least he said that he's open to the idea that god will give him a family but not not exactly your rousing um rallying cry uh let's let's skip ahead quite a bit here i want to talk about something else he he makes some conflations here which i think are very subversive so that there's a breadth of intimacy i get to experience that you don't sure sure um there's a breadth of intimacy i get to experience that you don't sam albury says as a homosexual christian or as he says the same sex attracted christian to someone who's a heterosexual why is that so there's again there are some unique pluses to being in my situation um and i keep coming back to i know the bridegroom i'm not i'm not actually missing out yeah um i'm not getting that the temporal signpost of of the love of god that marriage is designed to be um i'm not getting the appetizer but i'm getting the entree and the entree is so good i can skip the appetizer um so if i have the bridegroom then i'm not missing out on the whole marital romance all of that stuff he's trying to make singleness because he he's more or less he's kind of settled with this idea that i'm i'm gonna be single because i have these attractions and so in that he's just his whole way of trying to make this uh to lessen the blow that this is for a lot of people who would be following in his footsteps coming to these same conclusions well i guess i have these inclinations man i guess maybe i'm gonna be single the rest of my life he's trying to say that well it's there's a something there's an advantage to it now what's the advantage paul says about singleness in first corinthians what does he say about singleness he says essentially that the the reason that the singleness is an advantage is because you're not busy doing what satisfying a wife you're busy about doing the will of god that's not what sam albury says here sam albury makes it about this sort of romantic sounding intimacy he has with god because of the fact that he's single he knows the bridegroom even the way he phrased that it's a little odd and i it's just odd i have a lot of thoughts i would share but they're not i don't know how to phrase them in ways that are uh necessarily appropriate it maybe there's a creepiness to it to some extent i i don't i hesitate to say that because i don't want to say that about sam albury i don't think he doesn't come across to me as a creepy person but the way he describes his relationship with god because he's a same -sex attracted single male and how it's in some ways superior to others it's a little weird to me actually i'm i'm just as swept up in it um that's that is profoundly meaningful to me i'm wearing a ring on my ring finger which is a cultural signal for hey i'm married um there's other stories to why i'm wearing this to do with medical research it's a smart ring but i felt i thought actually i'm gonna wear it on this ring because i'm taken i belong to someone um and it's a nice tangible reminder to me that i that the bridegroom pursues me i don't know that i need to comment on that it's a nice tangible reminder to me that the bridegroom pursues me so he wears a wedding ring i'll say this um if he's open to the idea of getting married one day not a good move to be wearing a wedding ring especially in christian environments that doesn't exactly signal an openness i'm just saying so uh let's let's skip ahead here um let's let's go there's not many more places i want to go right yeah okay um um i've i've realized since then we we live in a culture where we try to define ourselves by who we love because i love this type of person that means i'm at this that's now my definition if i if i have romantic and and affectionate feelings towards other guys that means i'm now defined by that kind of love what john is showing us whether he's intending to do that or not i've got no idea but he's showing me actually i'm more defined by who's loved me than by the type of person i love so important i'm different that's not exactly accurate though um where your treasure is there your heart will be also do not love the world nor the things of the world anyone loves the world love the father is not in him uh we love him because he first loved us they're both important to who you are so in fact loving your family country your place your these are all natural things that really help form or they contribute to the identity that one has so this isn't accurate what he's saying here it there's it's like a fortune cookie there's there's some truth in the sense that jesus loving you is so important and that uh that does define you but that's also going to have an impact on the love that you have and where it's excuse me where it's directed uh he he comes up with this kind of other category for family to listen to this just of our life as a as a church yeah i think we're preaching yeah and even when we had talked about this some too of like as a you know because you've you've talked about your first book being is god anti -gay or not your first book then you write some stuff on james too but it's given you um avenues to speak into other areas such as singleness uh our our bodies who we sleep with that kind of things you've been able to really help us understand too like what what do we say when we use the word family for example yeah um because when we say families in the church we're often thinking the nuclear family husband and wife kids in a house with a dog two cars that kind of a thing but biblically when we say family how does how does what does family mean to you differently than it that it might mean to me yeah it's uh it's this beautiful area way in which jesus he's not calling us to abandon our biological families we have responsibilities there that that he will hold us to but he gives us another category of family that transcends even biology and so with particularly within the life of the local church we we are to see ourselves and to to treat ourselves as not just related in a in a distant sense of you're my second cousin and you're my you know but actually as close family paul says treat older men as fathers not as great uncles treat younger men as as brothers um jesus himself when he's asked about his family he is i don't know these people sitting under my word that's my family now which culturally at the time was like what how could you say something like that how wonderfully some of his his biological family became part of his his spiritual family too um and that that's the case to me i have wonderful physical parents um i also have lots of people spiritually who feel like they're their parents to me as well of people who feel like they're brothers and sisters i have people who feel like they are their sons to me and this was a big revelation to me a few years ago my church um about 10 years ago we were starting a sermon series on titus i had i was given the job of chopping up titus into how we were going to preach it and for some reason i thought let's just do a sermon on the first bit of just the intro of paul saying hello we skip we skip the greetings let's just do a whole so i was like okay then i was like i've got to get a whole sermon out of like the three verses or something yeah so half the sermon is on what does paul say about paul what does paul say about titus paul says like five words about titus i'm like okay i've got to get some i've got to bring some you know sermon out of this so i i went deep on it and it says to titus my true child in a common faith which i'd always sort of read as i've been breezing through i could have read that as hey kiddo you know ruffle the hair yeah i i looked up the greek and it's something to the effect of my legitimate begotten wow i thought whoa that's a big deal this is not just hey sonny um and i looked up the the word and paul did a whole ton of begetting yeah there's you know he says of the corinthian church he begot the entire church i mean and it was it came in a season where i had just been at a dear friend's wedding and one of the sweet things that happened after the wedding the beginning of the kind of reception was um the father did a special dance with his daughter and he had taken dancing lessons to surprise his daughter and be at a dance with her on her wedding night and that was just a kind of sweet thing and then the string quartet in the background and everyone was kind of like everyone had something in their eye at that point and i remember feeling just a profound sense of of bereavement that i'm never going to have a daughter that i can do that for and that that had sort of just weighed heavily on me and then i i you know minding my own business in titus chapter one noticed that and think oh i've i've been a parent this whole time and i hadn't realized it yeah and as i as i preached that sermon i had a few young guys wrote to me in the days after that sermon and said basically they said you've you've been a spiritual father to me um so this is actually i think what he's saying is actually a beautiful reality that those without children or those who aren't married who are single they they often do in a well -functioning church they will um find people who can serve kind of in these roles i don't think we we have to be careful of a conflation though that god does establish these natural relationships in family and he also establishes a spiritual family and because you're missing out in your mind or you're hungering for something that god that god says is good in that natural realm it doesn't necessarily mean that you that it's a substitute of in the sense that it it fulfills those natural longings in the spiritual realm i think that the the danger here is where and they don't really say this in the podcast but i've heard it so many times before of idolizing the family of the nuclear family of that there's a uh or even idolizing marriage there is an effort a concerted effort to try to make out like idolizing marriage family and the nation are so problematic and often this alternative is given of well you're part of a spiritual kingdom that has no or a city that has no foundation and you're part of a spiritual family and you're part of the the church offers these things and i mean i've even heard people say well we shouldn't really celebrate mother's day because of the way it makes people feel left out when they're not mothers and and the thing with all of this is there's natural relationships and there's spiritual relationships and it's the one doesn't serve as necessarily a substitute for the other it's not a it's not a parallel one -to -one and it's not really meant to be uh it's the earthly reality of these natural relationships serves to give us an understanding of how we ought to treat those to whom we are bonded in a spiritual way but they are different relationships in some ways they are deeper this is where it gets into whole thing about the nigerian woman versus your neighbor who's conservative which we talked about a few weeks ago in some ways they're deeper in some ways they're not in some so we share some in common we share some things that aren't aren't they're they're on a different level and i think there's a temptation to look at well you know i i missed out on marriage and family because i'm same -sex attracted and couldn't do those things but look let me kind of here's the consolation that i i can be uh part of the family of god i think there is consolation there but i don't think it's because i'm same -sex attracted and if you listen to the way this whole question was set up it was how do you view family differently than the way i view family and sam albury uh says well basically you know i'm part of the spiritual family that's not a difference that's not that's something that if you're heterosexual have a family and have kids you're also participating in that too and i think sam sam albury would recognize that but you're also and it can be just as deep it's not like you're if you have a deeper connection or a more strongly knit family because you're have same -sex desires and are single as a result you you're part of that spiritual family when you have 10 kids and a wife too and so it's or a husband so it's um that's where the the trip wire is is to start making these conflations and it it comes out i think a little bit more in the podcast later on uh let me show you told me if someone can't get married or be paired off they're going to live a life without love yeah that's another gospel yeah that's a different gospel your church stinks if that's the case yeah again sam albury having the fire for certain churches this was a apparently a gentleman on twitter who had told him basically you got to repent before coming to jesus or something he got he he had a problem with thinking you need to be sanctified before you can be justified and sam albury's adamant your church stinks uh because of that and that would be true if that in fact uh that that was advocated um but what he says about love here is the interesting thing to me because the gospel shows you something very different again jesus promises that that hundred -fold relational return that if i can put it this way that's the real prosperity gospel he's not promising us money or good living or life without hardship he is promising us relationship um so if people are if single people are lonely in our churches it's not because there's something wrong with singleness it's because there's something wrong with our churches good wow so let me uh interject with the question so what would you say to a single person who would say sam on one hand i know everything you're saying is true so so if single people are lonely the problem is the church see this is this is what i was telling you earlier he what he was saying is so true but then these conclusions are drawn it there's like an assumption behind it and it's what so much of what sam albury says is truth but it's missing something in this case missing the healthy distinction of natural relationships are very good and they should be pursued and there is something sad when something i i think i don't think there's here's this is a little personal to me just a little bit but um i don't even know how to say it i know a little bit about what it's like to want to have children and it hasn't happened yet i'm very i'm i'm not no martyr complex here it's very slight i i have a little bit of experience with it i have relatives that i'm close to heterosexual okay they wanted to get married particularly an uncle who wanted to get married to a woman and it never happened and he's past the point really where it's probably going to happen life is just there's not many years left that was his life um for for for much of it um i have uh single friends who uh are getting up into their um 40s and and i mean i've known people i haven't been as close to them but 50s and 60s even where you know they really wanted marriage and they wanted family and it didn't happen and you know what i'm not going to give the consolation prize i think that's when you can weep with those who weep when they're having a hard time with it and there's nothing you can say that's well at least you have a spiritual family well you shouldn't be lonely and if you're lonely it's the problem the church's fault because you shouldn't be alone no you know what actually it's very natural to be lonely in that case there is something that's missing it doesn't mean that your life's worthless or jesus doesn't love you or that there's not fulfillment or that there's not a greater fulfillment to come but it means that we live in a sin -cursed world and this isn't the way i wanted it to be but this is the way that it happened guess what there's a lot of things in my life i didn't want it to be that way and it's the way it happened i think you can say the same thing about your life and that's the moment when you can you weep with those who weep and you comfort them i would encourage you strongly don't get into this nonsense of trying to give a consolation prize out or to try to blame the church blame shift it somehow or that it's it's the result that people not catering to my specific condition because i'm same -sex attracted or otherwise you can recognize it for what it is you know what that's really sad i'm so sorry that you wanted to be married and you haven't gotten married and you're you're struggling with loneliness you know i can be your friend i can help i can't substitute though for what you're missing because that's a unique relationship that god's ordained and the church can't substitute and fill that um that's that's something that it's missing and it's okay not to be okay with that jesus was single he never got married he never had kids whole life he lived on this world he never did and tempted in all points yet without sin so i have to believe there is uh some some temptation there at some point that uh he was a man and there's natural desires god's given men for women but that i don't jesus had a mission to seek and save the lost he came for a purpose and you don't i don't find this teaching in scripture from jesus or anyone else but i don't see jesus saying i this is a part of my suffering is i am single and um but at least i have you disciples or at least i have these friends or the jesus was here on a rescue mission and and that's for for even single people i i encourage you to think about what's your mission we're right here right now where you are what's the thing god has you there for what can you do with the resources he's given you to love god and love others what can you do and maybe there are some things you can do that you're uniquely equipped to do because you're single you have more flexibility or whatever but it doesn't take away from the fact that that's not the natural course that god wants people generally to take that's not he wanted people to be fruitful to multiply to fill the earth husband leaves father and mother cleaves to his wife the two become one flesh it's a mystery of christ in the church this is this is an ordained institution by god and i think there's a diminishment of that when you act like the church can just substitute or something it's inflation of loves there's different kinds of loves and to have a love unfulfilled is a sad thing a kind of love there's no eros in the church there's phileo there's other things you're not going to find eros you shouldn't find eros you better not be finding it so this is honestly setting people up i think for more failure but i just struggle with feeling like somehow i'm on plan b team b help me there are lots of things to say one of the things i might say is marriage is no guarantee against having that feeling i know many married people who feel as though this isn't the marriage i signed up for or daydreamed about um this feels like marriage plan b or c or x you know we live we live in a world where we don't get plan a and our marital status is not going to be the key determiner of that it's it's it's the in -breaking of the new age that's going to be the determiner of that i'm kind of i'm kind of ticked at what he's saying to be honest with you he's right that there's no perfect marriage out there and every marriage probably i would say i mean it's probably universal every marriage is going to have disappointments in it the honeymoon period is not perpetual maybe for some couples maybe for some couples it is here here's here's the thing though just because marriages don't necessarily meet the fairy tale expectation that hallmark gives that doesn't mean there isn't something to marriage that is fulfilling that god has given and is significant don't make it insignificant don't make it out don't make out like marriage is just because you don't get 100 fulfillment there well i guess you know it's just as good to be single or something or no um there's a gift of singleness there's times for being single there's uniquely the things you can be uniquely equipped for in singleness but marriage is a blessing and there is fulfillment in it and sexual fulfillment is one of those things there's other things but sexual fulfillment is certainly one of those things and even paul says that if you burn get married you know enjoy the wife of your youth let her breast satisfy you she's your reward for all your labor how does sam albury get around these things so that's uh all those are all the portions of this podcast i wanted to show you it's a long podcast it's like two hours but there's a lot i think that we can draw from this i'm hoping this helped you all out in navigating this is one podcast i haven't listened to everything sam albury's put out there but this is i think a fairly representative interview of the kinds of things you can expect to hear if you go to a sam albury lecture or hear him on another podcast and i have listened to some other podcasts and things over time and i would say overall not helpful there are some things he says that are true but there's a much that is missing marriage needs to be elevated okay marriage should also be pursued it should be a goal for the vast majority of people it's going to be there ought not be an approach to homosexual desires that seeks to simply receive someone that has them in a gentle fashion without a plan to confront and root those things out and there should be an expectation that god is going to deliver and i don't put it i don't say it's 10 years 20 years 30 or or you know after you're dead i don't do any i don't put a time on it i just know that god promises to deliver from sin he's going to complete the work he started in you so if he's faithful then you can hang your hat on it it's not helpful to live in defeat or to i mean that this is the podcast honestly it's depressing if you listen to it you're going i got this sense it is this is a depressing podcast and the jokes that are told in in the middle there there it's just there's an awkward feel to it that's my opinion it it's disjointed it this is not this is not the kind of thing that's healthy for christians i think to imbibe too much in the reason people do listen to this kind of thing and heed this teaching i believe is because they're looking for something that as salma re said isn't the cranky conservative option and this is the alternative to that but you can be a cranky conservative about the normalization of homosexuality and other sexual deviancies on a social level and still be a gentle person to those who are struggling with those things and want to repent you those things aren't mutually exclusive guess what jesus could do that he could speak against adultery very forcefully and then he could be kind to an adulteress but he he said go and sin no more so there's that all right well god bless hope that was helpful mega edition here but um but an important one i wanted to say uh in closing that uh if you're looking for ministries to donate to i wanted to just let you know one more time about equipping the persecuted go to um i believe it's equipping the persecuted .com

01:32:41

let me just check because i gotta make sure i get that right it's .org i'm glad i checked equippingthepersecuted .org

01:32:48

and it is a website that will give you more information about how there are christians helping those in nigeria who are in the face of some real persecution i mean the suffering that sam albert is talking about in his situation is nothing compared to what some of our brothers and sisters are going through in other countries with terrorism and i mean they don't have time to entertain some of these uh these discussions we're having in the united states because it's survival and equipping the persecuted just helps brothers and sisters out so equippingthepersecuted .org