Open Phones for Almost 90 Minutes

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Calls on all sorts of topics from folks hiding in their bunkers, including a call on the Trinity and how to encourage a church to take it more seriously, witnessing to a Mormon missionary who is headed home, Hebrews 7:25 , and covenant theology. There was more, but Rich and I are too old to remember to jot down the topics! We intend to be back again tomorrow with another program! Visit the store at https://doctrineandlife.co/

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00:33
Well greetings welcome to Wednesday edition of the dividing line since most people are still well, you know
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Traffic has been nice recently. And by the way, the phone lines are open. Phone lines are open eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one man
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We've had that number for a long time. How long we had that number and then there's silence
01:00
If at least 15, okay Yeah, cuz I'm just always there's three sevens
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There's three threes and five four and one adds up to I've just played with the numbers for all these years and it just I think
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I've mentioned that actually on the phone you might not remember that Early on when we got the 800 number thing
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Yeah, I kept we kept getting new numbers because I kept wasn't able to pay the bill.
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Oh, I bet Yeah, cuz this wasn't the first one we had. No. No, it wasn't and back then that was expensive.
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Oh, are you kidding? Yeah for us everything was expensive Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
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During the I was gonna say traffic's not so bad out there. It's That's one nice thing.
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I suppose that doesn't represent anything really good. I did a I did a thought experiment on Twitter this morning and Well, first of all,
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I scared everybody that was that was interesting There are a lot of beware of Contextless facts facts have meaning within context and We are really learning that the public education system over the past 30 40 years has not
02:27
Communicated a the proper mechanism for how to think critically and As a result and I've looked long before kovat 19 came along which looks like he came along in December not in February, but anyways
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Long before that ever came along There was the constant drumbeat on my part of the need to Recognize the difference between emotions and thought and To think things through to see connections and to go long
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Not just well, what's the current situation? But what will be the ramifications is down the road, you know, part of this is my heritage
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Scotsman tend to be Long range thinkers in general um
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Part of it's the time I grew up Part of its chess. Yeah chess.
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I've mentioned that chess was a formative aspect of my youth Not my young youth but starting at about 12,
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I guess And for a couple years playing USCF tournaments got the point where I could play without a board
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Hours and hours and hours playing that particular game you have to think down Multiple lines of possibilities and you have to think many steps down a grandmaster can look at you know 15 different possibilities and go 20 moves down each line and how they permutate and Think about the how many options that is
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That's why I highly recommend highly recommend to homeschoolers teach your children to play chess it is
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Some of the best mental training that you will ever ever ever be able to get them involved in It really really is.
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There's I'm not I'm not making that up But Because of that then you you think about things and and so I I threw out
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The fact that I was coughing and I was I was not lying I had a bad cough this morning for a few minutes and it was because I had just gotten off the bike
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I'm not being able to ride much outdoors right now. I can only do short rides outdoors Not because we're locked down in a big way in Arizona But all the cities have closed all the parks so someone like me knows where all the bathrooms are and the older you get the more bathrooms you need to find and So I wanted to do
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I would love to do my Bartlett Lake ride right now because The traffic would be perfect.
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It's 96 miles round -trip from my house and out to Bartlett I normally add another four miles in for the fun of it making an even hundred five thousand six hundred feet of climbing
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But I can't Because every single bathroom stop Is closed
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So I'm actually gonna do it this this weekend, but I'm gonna do it in Zwift. Zwift .com
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look it up sometimes You're not familiar with it. It's online bicycling believe it or not. You can do it and it's some of the best workouts ever and They're barely keeping up with capacity right now.
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I've never seen so many people in Zwift Unbelievable over 20 ,000 people riding at a time from all over the world
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Italians everywhere you see the chat going on and it's half. It's in Italian because they're stir -crazy
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But it's what I was just gonna say this really speaks to the whole world
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There's just a situation that we've I can't even fathom this. I still haven't it's not sinking in.
06:15
Yeah No, you know, I mean when we when this first started unfolding I remember saying to you
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I've never seen anything like this in my entire life and at that time We didn't see half of what's going on now
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You know, it's just gone crazy So, you know the fact that you're you're seeing that many people show up in in that app
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Oh, it's well Well, it's it's a growing. It's a growing thing for people don't know what it is
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It's a if you're familiar with first -person shooter games, which have millions of users. This is a first -person cycling game
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But it is the only way to do it is to be working out and they've developed these things called smart trainers
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They're controlled by the computer. I don't know if they're still gonna do it They might this year, but they
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Zwift is signed with UCI Which is the world governing body of cycling to do the 2020 electronic championships?
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Because I mean there are entire pro teams that can't train right now that are in Zwift. It is that good
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It is that much like the real world. The only thing you don't have are stoplights bees flats and texting drivers and you know, so You can actually get a better workout in Zwift than you can out in the real world
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You really you really can't so so Peloton is not gonna get that contract so if this no Peloton is not even close
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Peloton is a There's a huge difference between riding a bike in a race and doing
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Peloton Peloton is a spin class They're not the same thing by any stretch of the imagination But anyways, what
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I was saying was I have been participating over the past two weeks in the tour of Watopia Which is in Zwift and so these are races and they are all out
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At you're at the rivets you're about to blow up level races this morning is 26 minutes long
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And So I just gotten off the bike and so I had I been at my max heart rate
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That you can sustain for 26 minutes 249 FTP if anyone out there understands what that was.
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I was at a 249 FTP And it gives you all sorts of data, it's really great
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So I just been breathing like anything and sucking in the pollen. It's Arizona.
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It's the end of March Everything's blooming. My tree is Incredibly full this year. It's really really nice.
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I've got one tree out front shade tree and it's beautiful But that means there's just Normally, I'd be snorkeling and coughing and everything this time of year as it is
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So but immediately before I could get the second tweet out. Oh, yes, you should stay home and I'm like see contextless facts a
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Fact without a context the context is I just got off the bike I just spent 26 minutes working as hard as I possibly could breathing as hard as I possibly could and So there's every reason why you would be coughing because I just sucked in a tube of air filled with impurities
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That's why I'm coughing. I can assure you the first I can assure you no one with kovat 19 is riding the race
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I just did okay. No. No, I've read the stories of people who survived kovat 19
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Riding races in Zwift at top -end performance is not what they were doing at that particular point that So no, but these contextless facts and so I threw this out then we'll get to our calls.
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I threw this out I I linked to a Podcast that Michael Fallon did a couple days ago last night.
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I listened to it and I have further Stories that substantiate what he was saying in there
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But I Then put out this this tweet and I basically said if every time
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Someone died in the United States let alone globally, but United States if every time someone died in a traffic accident
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Your phone was designed to send you a push notification with pictures That would be about every 15 minutes
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Because because we have about 100 people per day we're not talking injuries we're not talking Once you start injuries and stuff like that the number expands greatly but actually dies
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Do you remember because you and I took did you ever take driver's ed in high school? They didn't offer it up there that they had horses at They had mr.
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Ed up there I'm gonna jump in here What we had cars in Prescott right what we actually had yes, they did offer driver's ed
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I didn't need it I started driving back roads Of course everybody up there did no one has a no one has a no one needs a license in Prescott It was
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Dukes of Hazzard, baby. Let me tell you Well, then you didn't get to see a classic a
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Classic red asphalt you ever hear of red asphalt. Oh, man. See you missed it
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The movie that you showed in driver's ed of bad car accidents, it was meant it was sort of like scared straight
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But it was for people driving So you didn't get to see red asphalt But if if that's what was happening if your phone and your computer
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Every 15 minutes is showing you dead people from driving. What impact would that have upon driving in United States?
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Would would your Would your way of thinking change? The decisions you make change.
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Yeah, probably wouldn't what if it was cancer? Because cancer, what was it?
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What was it? I'm going on top my head here. I think it was One of them was 655 ,000 it was like 509 ,000 between cancer and heart heart attack heart disease
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In 2018 for US deaths That would be
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Every what two minutes something like that What if you're a send a picture a name of someone who died?
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Okay. Do you think you would be significantly more? focused upon cancer issues or heart attack issues or whatever else is and That would become the big thing.
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That would be the thing that dominates your thought and it would become the greatest risk Driving or cancer or heart attack or man tuberculosis bad stuff,
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I When I worked at the hospital man, you had to move that was They were very concerned extremely catching extremely fatal
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What if every time somewhere around the world someone died tuberculosis? You got a push notification about it.
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Think it might impact your thinking without a context Without a context. Yeah, probably would might explain some of the stuff that's going on going on today, but Doesn't seem to be the time to talk about that with a lot of folks because they're really really really really
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Really? Anyway, all right. Let's get to the phone calls here and let's start with Dominic in one of those states is pretty locked down Dominic.
13:57
How you doing? Hi. Oh, yeah, we're locked down here. Huh? Um Yeah, I have a question about the divine name
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Sort of a two -part question So first of all, is there like a way that we know with a hundred percent surety that the divine name is
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Yahweh Because like I did a ton of research on it and like all
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I can find is like You know just websites saying they're like modern scholar states y 'all like so like Wondering where it comes from, you know well
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The the Hebrew is not is not difficult to to read
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Obviously when you when you look at Hebrew the vowel pointing underneath the
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Hebrew is editorial, so was provided by the Masoretes in the 9th century, so but at the same time
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There are all sorts of place names. For example in the
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Old Testament that we we know what those what those place names are and how they were pronounced because we have other language translations of it so when scholars say that the
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Best pronunciation is Yahweh. It's it it only it has two syllables.
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It can't be Jehovah That's three syllables syllables. That's that's specifically a violation so that we know that's not a possibility
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And the Yod is the Yod. So you're just being consistent in your pronunciation. So Might there be some slight variation
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You know when you're saying 100 % well Nothing like that is a hundred percent.
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We don't have an mp3 like could it be like Yawa or like, you know, like something like that Well, you can play with the vowels but they're given how that name was then connected with other words
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Yahweh was it was connected to numerous other words in the Hebrew language the consistent way of Rendering it would be
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Yahweh. You'd have to if you come up with something else. You'd have to have a a pretty strong argument from Cognate languages related languages
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Ugaritic whatever it might be and again, you know depends on what time frame you're looking at to pronunciation might have changed over time
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But you have to have an argument from cognate languages and you'd have to have a an argument that would probably be based upon How Hebrew is translated in the languages because at least that does give you an idea of how ancient people were understanding
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How the Hebrew was pronounced because if you're rendering into the Greek for example, then you want to You want to be somewhat close to what its pronunciation was and things like that but I realized there's
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Dozens of weird theories that people want to float out there to try to get people to watch them on YouTube but the people who don't have a
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Vested interest in trying to get followers and just do scholarship have pretty much agreed with I'd say about 98 % unanimity that Yahweh is the best that we're gonna the best pronunciation that is available
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Okay, I see and I'm just just one last question In Matthew when
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Jesus quotes Deuteronomy, do you think he said Lord or Yahweh? What do you think he said?
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Well, what what text you referring to? There's numerous citations of of the Old Testament Matthew chapter 22
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I believe it is when they asked what's the greatest commandment and he says you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart
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So I said well, yeah Well, that's a good question If he's answering in Aramaic, he would be quoting from From the
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Hebrew and so you would you would have something very directly close to that Matthew and Mark and Luke and John when they quote the
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Old Testament, they they don't quote it from Aramaic or Hebrew most of the time
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Vast majority of the time they they quote it from the Greek Septuagint and the Greek Septuagint used Kodios So it the question would be that gets you into the question of The original languages of the
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Gospels, which I don't think there's any question was was Greek and then that raises the issue of The relationship between when
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Jesus is speaking Aramaic and then it's rendered into the Gospels in a different language What about the translation thereof is is the question?
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People who think that what you have in the Gospels is sort of an mp3 recording Rather than a literary production that has a purpose to it
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Really struggle with that particular issue Because if you if you really think the Gospels are meant to be a modern
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Journalistic type of thing where you're just someone sitting there with a like a court stenographer recording stuff
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Then the fact that it's being written in a language other than what it was originally spoken raises all sorts of all sorts of problems but as long as you have a strange view of well, it's not strange as in a
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Historical it's rather common. Unfortunately view of what the Gospels are then that's not that's not an issue either.
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So In all probability in that context The original words would have been in Hebrew or Aramaic But they weren't recorded for us in Hebrew Aramaic they're recorded for us in Greek and That's that's the reality of it
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Okay Yeah, thank you, okay, thanks
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I'm gonna have a stay safe out there See no one's coughing yet, that's
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When you even mention it Okay, let's Okay, let's talk to Virginia.
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Hi, Virginia. How you doing? Good how are you? Dr. White doing? Well, I'm I haven't
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Haven't turned into a flesh -eating zombie yet. So that's probably a positive Good I Had a question about witnessing to Mormons.
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I have been talking to our local LDS missionary. His name's Harrison Let's see a week well over a week ago now he wrote to me and he was in At his apartment because he had bronchitis and he asked if I was willing to answer some questions
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So he's asked me about the Trinity about salvation All kinds of different questions really good question
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Well due to all the changes with missionary service. He is going home today
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He wasn't supposed to go home till July, but he's being sent home early. So we're still in touch with him
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He called me this morning thanking us for our family's love for him and stuff like that But I'm wondering your tips on witnessing to a now returned
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Mormon missionary as I continue to keep in touch with him. Yeah, I don't know what the numbers are right now
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There's there's been a lot of changes but back in the day 60 to 65 percent of more missionaries when they went home
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Became inactive for about six months after they got back because they were simply burned out. They were just they were just tired
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I mean it is a difficult life The missionaries are strongly discouraged from developing relationships with people
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Even with other Mormons really and so especially at that particular age in life
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You know, it's it's tough it's it's a it's a real hard thing that they're that they're doing and today
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So many Mormons have such a a subjective Perspective that the church is changing and It just must be really really really difficult and I am obviously
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Encouraged when any of these young men have questions And it seems to me that the best time for those conversations taking place is when they're off their missions
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I mean the the conversation on the mission can start can start the process, but they are so Surrounded by Mormonism.
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They're almost never alone and so having time to decompress and to actually even give consideration to What they've heard from someone is very difficult while on the mission in most instances
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Questions that develop on the mission end up having fruit and fruition
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After the mission is is over. And so if you can maintain That kind of of an open door then obviously
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Once they're no longer on the mission then they can read literature they can read books they can engage in in Meaningful conversation and so if you can keep the door open
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You don't have to Provide just quote -unquote anti Mormon literature and materials, right?
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I for example years ago Sent someone a copy of the holiness of God by R .C.
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Sproul and I chose I chose that book especially because Of the fact well, first of all,
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I when I read it, I couldn't put it down. I read it in one sitting I was up till 130 in the morning Something like that reading that book because I just could not put it down.
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It was it was that good and the section on the madness of Luther in regards to the
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Holiness of God, I would think especially in in dealing with Mormons would be one of the most
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Differentiating aspects of who God really is because if if God's an exalted man
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Then the whole concept of holiness that is central to who
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The true God of Scripture is is completely foreign there's there's no there's no corresponding aspect within Mormonism of the holiness of God because the holiness of God in Scripture is he is completely other and the main message of an
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Understand understood Mormon theology is he is completely me And so you couldn't you can't get any more different than that.
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And so answering those questions great But maybe opening up some other areas with with literature like that would be
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Would be a really good direction to go as well. Now, obviously if you've been talking with him, maybe you've already discovered whether he's your
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Whether he's a strong Conservative style Mormon or whether he's more of the modern
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Emotionally oriented Subjective style Mormon a mixture of the two hard to say.
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I mean, I don't know. Oh Sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead he's more he believes in exaltation that sort of stuff he
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Knows his stuff like he knows what the King Father discourse is, which I met a missionary who didn't write. Oh, yeah
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I like that. Um But he wants to ask the question and he wants me to explain
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Everything he's because he knew knows that we're reformed Baptist, right? So he's like So what does that mean?
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Like if you had to nail down your core beliefs, what would those be? And then he asked me He's like, okay
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I want to know what happens to the following person the average elect person the average non elect person and gave me this list and He's like I want everything from the start to the end and everything in between Yeah, um, so he definitely wants me to give him the information
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We were talking about the Canon description scripture for a while. I sent him part of an article that you wrote
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We watched some of your videos that you did with wretched radio on the reliability of New Testament.
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We watched that when they came over um, okay, but I Can almost guarantee you there's a
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Mormon listener right now I Thankfully, I didn't mention where you're from because I know where you're from I'm not gonna mention it, but there's a
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Mormon listener right now calling their local Missions district
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You know, there's on a state mission or whatever, you know here in Arizona and they're going. Okay. Here's here's the missionaries name and We need to send the shock troops in because this is bad.
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This is this is it is not a good situation I can just see it now and So, yeah, okay maybe they'll forget that you gave his name because he's he's doomed now one way or the other but That sounds like it sounds like a real good situation eventually
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Someone gets to the point where there's they're seeing enough
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To where they're starting to realize this would require a major change on my part and that can be extremely frightening and can result in Cutting off of all of all contact.
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There's nothing you can do about that You have to trust the Lord in that situation You you provide the best answers that you possibly can and then you trust the
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Lord to do With with that situation what he will But the fact that he's asking
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I mean obviously a lot of the questions He's asking are answered in letters to a
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Mormon elder and is the more of my brother So those obviously would be books that you know letters for Mormon elder is more conversational but is the more my brother is it goes very in -depth into LDS theology and Citation stuff like that at the very least it looks at and goes and these folks are really
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Trying to represent us as accurately as possible. So I probably should listen to what they're having to say You know those both those books would be would be helpful.
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But like I said along with stuff like The holiness of God and and things like that that would
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Communicate something that's not just within The context of I need to be defensive about this because I already have beliefs in this area and this is challenging me
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That kind of thing could be really useful as well Okay Thank you very much.
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I will have I'll write to you later I'll have my dad write to you later because you know friends near where this missionaries going
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But I don't want to mention that because I don't want to cause trouble that would probably good. That's right be good Okay, I'll I'll hear what you
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I'll look forward to them Okay. Thank you very much. Thanks for by the way Uh -huh. Thank you so much for that Bible that you gave me with Jeffrey Rice Colossians with my first book
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I heard about that. I think I think I redid the Facebook thing the video of that but Both Jeffrey and I were very happy to be able to do that.
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So Thank You Virginia, God bless Yes, that was it g3
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I'm glad g3 was able to happen this year didn't get Cancelled even though I'm fairly
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Fairly convinced that Covid -19 was all over the place even back then Okay Just had a call from a friend of mine who's obviously not listening to the dividing line today
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Which makes me sad, but I'll I'll get back to you brother when when
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I can let's talk to Chad In Ohio.
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Hi Chad Doing good On Romans 1126.
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I know you don't like talking eschatology and I don't think this necessarily has to do with eschatology but I was listening to John MacArthur's sermon on why every
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Calvinist should be a pre -millennial and When he read this verse more paraphrase that he said and then all
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Israel will be saved and that really caught my attention so I looked at the
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Different translations the NIV King James NASB all translated and so all
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Israel will be saved I'm sorry. What was the reference? Romans 1126. Oh, okay.
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I thought you said 36. I was like what that's sorry. I may have Yeah, Romans 1126.
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Yeah. No Hutos is and and thus are in this way So it can't be then
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And I the New American Standard doesn't render it that way either And so Hutos is the same term that's used if I recall correctly.
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He's not looking at right now John 316 Well, no, it's not no it's not well, okay now that went and mentioned it
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I'm gonna have to double -check that did he did he did he did he? Yep. It is. I was right.
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Okay The older you get the more you check those so Verse 25,
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I do not want you brethren to be in for uninformed of this
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Most area on this minute mystery so that you will not be wise in your or in your own estimation
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That a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the phones the Gentiles has come in and so yeah,
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I mean obviously If you have a certain eschatology, it's easier for you to paraphrase and say and then all
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Israel will be saved but and thus all Israel will be saved just as it is written.
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The Deliverer will come from Zion. He will move in godliness from Jacob This is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.
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Now. What's interesting is In years past Well the the first Commentary published that dr.
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Dr. MacArthur did was on Hebrews and So he did that whole, you know, he preached the entire
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New Testament did the commentary series. It's all available, etc, etc but the first one he did was on Hebrews and that was before he was really making any open statement of being reformed at all and so what's interesting is in in his commentary on Hebrews 8, he actually makes the argument that the
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New Covenant spoken of in Hebrews 8 is only with ethnic Israel There is the
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New Covenant is not with the church and You know, no one he's not that's not his position any longer
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But it was then So once you have that perspective
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Then it's easy to see how Hutos would have become then And if you then make an argument based upon then then there's then there's there's an issue but and So all
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Israel will be saved has to do with the the methodology and That is through the
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Deliverer coming from Zion who remove So you would agree more with the
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ESV's translation which says and in this way all Israel will be saved Yeah, I mean
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I don't have the ESV up here, but that's a good yeah, who does would would be well rendered that way I mean the
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New American Standard is just and so It connects with the preceding text more.
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It seems I don't know maybe because I'm reading it with my own eschatology in view But it just seems like it comes out of left field to all of a sudden just insert this idea of in the future
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Every single I think Israel Israelite is going to be saved into this discussion and it seems to ignore the idea of Preceding context which seems to me to be surrounding the idea of making
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Israel envious Is there is there a connection with? the making of Israel envious and this idea of this being the mechanism by which
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God saves Ethnic Israel is through the process of making them envious well
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The the immediate context is the hardening And the the divinely ordained fullness of the
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Gentiles has come in so it's about the Union together And so really the question becomes how you define who
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Israel is here. Do you go back? to a recognition that at the beginning you you have the assertion of See did it did it did it were to go
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Well, I'd have to look for it right now, but you have the Actually, it's back in chapter 10.
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I realize that but the idea of the remnant and Obviously, there's been a tremendous amount of discussion about exactly what
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Romans 11 is referring to and there's a couple of different Primarily consistent ways of interpreting it
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But every interpretation I've ever seen Struggles With some has to has to basically say and in this this instance
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I'm gonna take it this way, even if the natural reading might be that way. There's a little bit of that in almost every
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Interpretation I've ever seen of Romans chapter 11, so it's a challenging text
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Okay But who toasts who toasts would be would not be translated then it's literally
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That seems to Just Graham Rogers your eschatology into that burst.
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I mean it doesn't could be Okay. Yep. All right,
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Chad. Okay. Thanks. Dr. White. Thanks for your call. All right. God bless I'm All right, let's talk with Caleb.
36:30
Hi Caleb Hi, dr. White. How are you sir doing? All right All right.
36:36
Um, first of all, the biggest reason I'm calling is I wanted to thank you for your book on grieving in May 22nd of this last year my 26 year old sister died in a car accident suddenly and The worst part about that is we were praying for her salvation leading up to that news
36:57
That next morning. I drove your book out to my father and he Reading it.
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He he has expressed that that is a that's a huge part of what what held us all together really, and I actually handled the eulogy on that on that on that day and Yes, I can't
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I just can't thank you enough. I'm stammering here. But yeah. Well, yeah, I mean Especially doing eulogies
37:26
You That close to a death You're normally still dealing with shock
37:32
Which actually is a wonderful thing that that that God designed us to be able to do because sometimes you have to be able to do stuff at that particular point
37:43
And it's only later That you really start to understand some of the applications of the principles that I that I touched on in there
37:51
It's for those who have not seen the book. It's not a long book. Most people who are in grief Don't want to read 500 pages
37:57
And it's very practical. It's not meant to be some in -depth theology of death, but it's extremely practical and and I Really appreciate how much it has benefited people down through the years.
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So thank you for that information Appreciate that and I'm sorry at the letter sister. Oh Thank you
38:15
So my question today is just in regards to Covenantal distinctions in in in Baptist theology and Baptist covenantal theology
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Just want to read this from the Westminster confession and get kind of get your comment on it I've been
38:32
I've been reading Pascal Dunant on Reform Baptist distinctives in regard to covenantal theology.
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He touched on this a little bit But I was wondering if you would have any comment on this particular section.
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This is from chapter 7 on covenants in its subsection 6 under the gospel when
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Christ the substance was exhibited the ordinance in which this covenant is dispensed now the preaching in the word and the administration of the sacraments of baptism in the
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Lord's Supper, which though fewer in number and Ministrate administrated with more simplicity and less outward glory yet in them is held forth in more fullness
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Evidence in spiritual efficacy to all nations both Jew and Gentiles and it's called the New Testament this last section
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I'd really like your comment on there is not therefore two covenants of grace differing in substance but one in the same under various dispensations and you were quoting from The Westminster confession of faith chapter 7 subsection 6 the chapter on covenants.
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It's a The 1689 only has three sections under covenants and It it's just there is no parallel to this section.
39:45
And I was just wondering if you would have any comment on that or Disagreements agreements.
39:51
I'd love to hear what you would have to say. No, not not really not without it Well, even if it was in front of me,
39:57
I probably wouldn't either There are Thankfully Over the past number of decades there have been a number of works that have been published that go into a tremendous amount of depth on the subject of covenants the issues of Adamic mosaic
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Abrahamic Old Covenant New Covenant Whether the
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New Covenant is fully established eschatologically established what the nature of those things might be and Up until about ten years ago there was pretty much unanimity amongst
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Reformed Baptists on that subject And then A new perspective which is claimed to be an old perspective
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Was put forth that basically said that the authors of the 1689 actually did not hold to the perspective that pretty much all
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Adherents to the London Baptist Confession in the modern day thought they did and that has convinced many people and it is not an issue that I have
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Decided to engage. It was presented to me in such a horrific fashion initially In it just it's really turned me off Terribly because of the way it was presented to me
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That's not an excuse But it did put it way down on the on the priority priority list given how it was initially presented to me
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So That is not an area of of major reading for me.
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It just isn't I Sometimes feel guilty about it and then
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The next thing that no one will touch the 10 -foot pole comes up and I end up tackling that and I go, you know what?
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I'm not gonna feel guilty about it. I think the perspective that I've Expressed in the past is more than adequate if I end up Locked in a house and can't get out for a while.
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Maybe I will have time for something like that, but That's not the situation yet. So I I don't know that I would have any meaningful
42:32
Discussion about it for you That is not much more widely discussed in some of the books that have been published just over the past ten years or so By people who this is what they do.
42:44
This is this is their area. They examine every nook and cranny And I don't
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It's just not a not a part of my my reading. So I'm gonna have to say no. I really fair enough
42:56
We wouldn't have anything really to add to that Oh, okay, would you recommend anything besides Pascal Dana and Nehemiah Cox from Adam to Christ?
43:06
Would you have anything on your on the tip of your mind or well, I would think that That the
43:13
Reform Baptist Academic Press book that had numerous folks including those folks
43:20
Would have some other perspectives in it And of course, it's always good to hear what the other side's saying and there's any number of books on that subject
43:29
But especially on that subject I'm not going to be much of a bibliography person because like I said, it's not my area of reading now if you want to know about Sharia law or the textual criticism of the
43:40
Quran or something like that cool, but Off top my head. No, not really Well, I've been
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I've been greatly blessed through the years through the through the areas you do to go in such depth on and I Thank you, sir.
43:53
You're a gift to the church and thank you one more time for the blessing that your book was well Thanks Caleb. I appreciate that and it's always good to hear that that book was written in difficult circumstances and a difficult loss that prompted it and But yet many people
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I've had a number of people actually say that it saved their life They were seriously considering ending their own life and the book
44:19
Helped them in that situation and so it's actually my second most popular book. Most people have no earthly idea
44:25
I wrote it in fact there are people who don't think that I did write it because whoever wrote it had a heart and Very clearly
44:31
I do not so it couldn't possibly have been me. So so there you go Well that actually doesn't surprise me at all.
44:38
I was greatly blessed by it And I'm sure I'm sure it has blessed many many people as you've already mentioned
44:44
It doesn't surprise me that that's one of your better selling books. Yeah at all Well, I'm glad it's still out there.
44:50
I appreciate Bethany House Publishers who is a Publishing house that is many publishing houses will
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Really limit the the life of a book But Bethany House as long as it meets certain
45:04
Criteria, we'll just we'll keep it out there and I really appreciate that. Thanks Caleb. Have a good one You as well, sir.
45:10
All right. Bye. Bye All right. Let's just go with these next three rich we could so let's talk with Josh in Virginia.
45:20
Hi Josh Hi, Dr. White. Thank you for taking my phone call. I want to say it's an honor to speak with you
45:26
Yes, sir. I have a question about the Trinity so I've been trying to explain to my pastor the importance of going further in depth in the teaching of the
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Trinity because I believe that our church body as a whole across the entire world as you've gone over this several times is
45:43
You know very under prepared and under knowledge or lack of knowledge on the Trinity But I'm getting a little hesitancy there from him.
45:52
So I was wanting to know you've said several times that if you were to conduct a quiz of a church just the average church that You would show the inadequacies of the church bodies knowledge on the
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Trinity and I was wanting to know what some of those questions might Be oh, yeah well Normally when
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I'm making that particular observation, I'm saying that I am very convinced that If we were to ask questions specifically concerning the existence of the three divine persons
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That the majority of our people would test out as modalistic Not believing or understanding that the
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Father Son Spirit Have eternally existed as divine persons in relationship with one another.
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So a question along the lines of Has the
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Well, it's it what would be sadly easy to do Would be to quote a verse such as from John chapter 14
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He who has seen me has seen the Father Would you agree that the
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Father and the Son are one person? I'm Very concerned as to how many people would answer.
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Yes to that Because I mean I've I've heard I mean you not only do you hear it in the prayers of many many people but I've heard it from the pulpit as well and Most of the time it is just simple inaccuracy that that's all it is but the inaccuracy comes from the fact that the person does not have a
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Confessional understanding that there is one being of God shared by three persons and being in person are not the same thing.
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So to give you an illustration the The Southern Baptist Convention had a problem in that they invited a non -trinitarian group to sing at their
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Big shindig about three years ago, which has now been canceled for this year and the the band
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Was able to sign The Baptist faith and message which is their confessional message because the
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Baptist faith message is not clear enough on that subject to actually expose someone who is a oneness or a
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Unitarian in their theology. It just wasn't ever designed to define the
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Trinity that clearly and So I suggested questions them That would expose if you want to expose someone who's into oneness you say
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Has the Sun eternally existed as a divine person in communication and communion with the
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Father and the Spirit And So it's really obviously as you know when you take polls and things like that, you know things called push polls
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I can what what we What you could do is you could ask the questions in such a way as to increase the orthodoxy level
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But I think if you went the other direction and that of course is where our people are When they're talking to a
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Jehovah's Witness at the door when they're talking to a oneness guy on the street corner The questions are going to be asked are going to be seeking to get them to go the other direction
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So we have to be have to be careful What I what I think that the question
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I just asked has the Sun eternally existed in Communion with a relationship communion with the
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Father and the Holy Spirit. I think a lot of people would naturally go. Yes but if you were to then turn that around and Quote from a one of the passages that people use
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Such as John chapter 14 and if you've seen the father You know when we say there's one
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God that is doesn't it follow that the Father the Son the Spirit of one person's We we'd get contradictory answers because people don't understand the distinctions
50:04
That are for example a part of the Athanasian Creed But the reality is if you read the Athanasian Creed the vast story to Christians They're completely lost is why it's saying what it's saying.
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They can't follow it. We can't follow it Isn't it amazing that people in the fourth and fifth centuries? Who were trying to survive the
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Justinian plague and things like that? Had a better grasp of these issues because they were a part of the everyday conversation.
50:29
They're not any longer They're not any longer. So Obviously, I think most people would be okay on the
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Unitarian The monotheistic stuff they would probably confess. There's only one true God, but if you
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Asked a question first about there being only one true God and then pressed on the relationships of persons
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That's where people end up getting pushed toward some type of modalistic oneness expression
50:59
So, I mean I think the vast majority of our folks at least would not fail on Confessing that the son is equal to the father in in his deity.
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They might on the spirit They might on the spirit. I'll be honest with you. That's a possibility.
51:21
I Evangelicals as a whole I'm not talking about my church or something like that, but in in general.
51:28
Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, thank you I really appreciate that. That'll be very helpful moving forward.
51:34
I loved your book The Forgotten Trinity I'm probably gonna reread it again pretty soon. So I really appreciate everything that you've done.
51:40
Okay. Thank you very much And I hope it's I hope it's helpful to you. Thank you. Thank you All right, two more calls here.
51:46
Let's talk to Matthew in the People's Republic of Matthew.
51:52
Comrade, how are you? I Dwight how are you?
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Took it took you back there, didn't I? Yeah, you did. I you made me forget the joke that I was gonna
52:07
I ruined a wonderful joke of the battle. I'm sorry about that, but hey my call. Yes. Okay, the ship is sailed so yeah,
52:16
I've got a question about about good works and I'll give a little bit of background and then
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I'll ask my question very little bit So RC Sproul, I really learned a lot from RC Sproul And I've been watching a lot of the old
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Gerstner videos John Gerstner videos that Ligonier's put out Oh, yeah, John Gerstner, man.
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What a voice. Yeah Yeah that growl I hear
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RC's growl in Gerstner or the other way around. That was purposeful, you know,
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I was talking with RC at at the Christian Booksellers Association in 1995 and and I asked him about I asked him about J.
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Packer. I said Dr. Sproul, I said, you know J. Packer signed
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Evangelicals and Catholics together. What do you think about that? And he said we gotta understand gotta stand. J. Packer's an
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Anglican He's got one foot in the Bible and one foot in Rome Yeah He did
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I'm serious he really did Yeah, I I was I was actually depressed when
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I after reading Knowing God by Packer right and then finding out later that he signed that I that was a that's but but but RC was right
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Packer. That's his that's his milieu. That's his background. That's his that's where he is
53:39
And and you can you can sit there and go I don't get it But that's because it's not your background your milieu, you know when
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I listen to my Anglican friends, they'll say things I just go But I just have to go.
53:52
Well, Lord, love you and me. I love you, too Anyways, that's not what your question was. Go ahead.
53:58
No, but so anyway Gerstner and RC used to speak about justification as monergistic and sanctification as synergistic.
54:08
Mm -hmm and and my question to you is Do you do you find that like in modern reform circles that there's that there's sort of like an allergy to to speak about like exhortation toward good works and and Striving toward good works even even after making the proper category distinctions between justification and sanctification, right?
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speaking within sanctification and even within You know distinguishing between positional sanctification and progressive sanctification once you've done all that work and you're finally there in progressive sanctification and then you start saying there's cooperation and there's the necessity of good works and people just seem to just fly off the handle and think that you're
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That you're trying to they blame you on Doug Wilson or Doug Wilson on you on the two
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But yeah, no, obviously the this is a balance that has been a struggle
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From the start and It's a balance represented in the
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New Testament Paul Paul specifically had enemies that made that accusation against him.
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You're saying we should do do Evil so good might come.
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No. No, no. No, we've died to sin that he has he has people coming out from every which direction Even in the apostolic period and so we shouldn't be shocked
55:35
We it does not make a lick of sense if we were reformed at all Then we should recognize a biblical anthropology and the biblical anthropology is going to tell us that Mankind is always going to be trying to insert himself into the grace of God always going to be trying to build mechanisms for controlling the grace of God and So there's always going to be a need to be defending against an improper use of law and works and the insertion of man and so when you get to the biblical teaching that God has a purpose in electing us in the
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Sun and that is to inform us to his image and therefore that we are to examine ourselves and that we are to see whether we're in the faith and And and we are to be holy as he is holy and no one without holiness is going to see
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God And when we allow the rest of the biblical passages to speak and provide that balance
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Despite all the efforts to say I'm not saying that's what makes me right with God This is what
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God's purpose and justification was. I mean the very same golden chains has justified also says glorified
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And the only ones are gonna be glorified or those who are glorified in holiness. It all fits together.
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It's wonderfully balanced it's beautiful, but if the Mindset of the majority of the people that you're talking to is that they're constantly fighting against those who are trying to go the other
56:56
Direction, it's the old tug -of -war illustration. It's a good illustration When you're involved in tug -of -war,
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I'm not sure they do anymore because it might be considered bullying or something. I don't know It's sort of like dodgeballs dead, too
57:08
But but if you if you remember if you've ever seen movies where when people were still people
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Back then and you engaged in in tug -of -war You're not balanced while you're in a tug -of -war.
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You can't be in fact One of the ways you try to win is you'd all whisper Okay One two three and you let go and the other side falls over on their tushes
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Then you grab the rope and run the other direction and you win. So So the and why does that work because they're not balanced there?
57:37
They're full out the other direction and I've said many times. I'm so glad that Alvin Omega, you know
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We started focused upon one group But it didn't take long before we had to expand that out and it was dealing with other groups that have helped to keep us balanced and of course always being in the church and Teaching the whole
57:54
Council of God is the most important part, but you're you're gonna become imbalanced. And so when people Develop the you know people for example who are constantly dealing with Roman Catholicism That's gonna be their thing, you know, they're there.
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That's what they're always talking to people on that side They're pulling this direction. And so if they see somebody over here pulling the other action, well, you must be my enemy
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You you must you must be on the other side. And so very frequently you don't get to have a real
58:25
Balanced discussion. Yeah, and for me, that's why biblically
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Deeply exegetical Opening up of the entirety of the Council of God and scripture is so important in the local church because you're gonna run into all those passages
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That tell you, you know, if you if you even touch on preaching out of Jeremiah You have to preach on hatred of sin.
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You have to preach on on on the degradation of sin you've got to go there and you've got to make application and If Wow try
59:04
Hebrews It's right there in front of us. So But you're you're correct.
59:09
I've seen the exact same thing. I experienced the exact same thing And especially unfortunately because of all the federal vision stuff
59:19
There are a lot of people that just you can't talk about that stuff now They'll they'll confess it and then immediately say and if you say anything beyond, you know
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Trying to say that it's your works that justify you or keep you in and all the rest that kind of stuff So, yeah, yeah, so dr why one one other thing that RC Sproul said and I wonder if you know,
59:40
I'm Trying to figure out if you're comfortable using some of the words that in the ways that I'm not
59:46
I'm not comfortable the synergistic thing and this and only in this sense. I just don't think I think it's a category error
59:53
It's one thing to ask the question About Regeneration because we affirm that man is dead in sin.
01:00:00
And so the issues of cooperation and stuff like that that's relevant there I just don't see that as a
01:00:06
The concern is that the category? introduces confusion We are new creatures in Christ is natural for us to love holiness and to love
01:00:17
Christ and to seek to follow him And we're in dwelt by the Holy Spirit of God and so on the technical level that since we have now been freed from sin
01:00:27
There is a cooperation Because we we are made a new person in Christ.
01:00:34
The Holy Spirit is there we have those desires within us It's a different but it's a different context.
01:00:41
It's a different thing to talk about abilities Post regeneration and pre regeneration and Yeah, yeah,
01:00:50
I've heard someone else say that using the words monergistic and synergistic when it comes to sanctification
01:00:56
It's really borrowing that language from something else and try and yeah So cooperation sounds like a word that you're probably comfortable using
01:01:05
It's it's in that it's the natural result of what it means to be a new creature in Christ So but we but we are a new creature in Christ we have these desires
01:01:16
Those desires don't make us holy those desires Don't make us better than somebody else. They come from the fact that that we've been we've made been made new
01:01:24
And so I think it is perfectly appropriate to preach on the fact that we as Christians should hate our sin
01:01:31
We should hate our sin. Some people say you're putting people under guilt No, we if if there's someone in my fellowship that loves their sin
01:01:40
That's not a good sign of spiritual life Yeah, we should hate our sin. It doesn't mean that we are always victorious over it, but we should hate it and Truly hate it not just simply in in in a religious sense to make ourselves feel better But really really hate what it does to us and what it does to God.
01:01:57
Yeah so if I can ask you one other question just on the same topic and see if Because this language is something that Sproul used and and again,
01:02:08
I've I've heard I've heard people get upset at this kind of language And I just want to know whether you're whether how you would put it if you would put it differently than Sproul but he he talks about Salvation being like an umbrella term that that that can be used and is used for for Justification sanctification and glorification
01:02:30
So you're you were saved you're being saved you're going to be saved and salvation can be used as a you know
01:02:38
You'd have to specify what you're talking about. So someone asked the question do you do good works?
01:02:44
Contribute to your salvation any and he said well if you mean if you mean justification then no way right
01:02:52
But if you mean in sanctification and and you know like in rewards and do your good works get
01:02:59
Or do they count toward with that and he said definitely yeah, well and the only and the only and the reason people get upset about that is because of the concept in a new perspective on Paul of a final justification that Transcends the initial justification to where your good works become
01:03:23
Part of the justification of God and of yourself. So part of that is a reaction against certain aspects of new perspectivism
01:03:31
Part of that. I think more of that is The fact that you know in in when
01:03:38
I grew up Salvation was used synonymously With the entire process and was almost never used in Its biblical sense so for example
01:03:52
In first Corinthians chapter 1 when it says those who are perishing and those who are being saved
01:03:58
There's a direct grammatical Parallel between perishing and being saved the
01:04:04
King James says those who are saved and it broke the parallel It's not a good translation
01:04:09
But fundamentalists, whoa, man Don't you dare say that because you can't be being saved if you're saved at all then you're saved completely and they refuse to see the categories that they're that they're confusing at that particular point in time and so Yeah, you know if you let people
01:04:30
Define their what their terms are then all of a sudden you discover that there's not nearly as much reason to be as divided as We frequently are
01:04:38
But yes, obviously if what we're saying is it is if we're saying that Ephesians 2 10
01:04:46
Does follow Ephesians 2 8 & 9 and yeah He foreordained that we should walk in good works.
01:04:53
That's part of being conformed to the image of Christ so Yeah, does that add to the foundation of my peace with God or my eternal standing with God?
01:05:04
No, it does not is the foundation is one and Unmixed what comes beyond that is to God's glory
01:05:11
And to our good Yeah Thank you. I'll just tell you that as far as California and tug of war we do still play but we just give trophies to the winners and the losers and to the people watching
01:05:28
And to the coach and to the yeah, I know that's it's like points in whose line is it anyway
01:05:38
Dr. White, thanks. Thanks a lot. All right. Thanks, Matthew. I hope you get out of California someday It's true, it's true.
01:05:47
All right one more call. Let's get this all wrapped up here. We'll talk with Michael I Didn't know that you were allowed to use telecommunication devices in Washington right now.
01:05:58
I thought you could only sit in the corner With blankets on top of you so that you don't get it or give it
01:06:06
Yeah, me and my wife are hit away in the corner. Just watching TV, man I'll tell you being away from everyone as far as possible
01:06:13
Yeah, okay What can we do for you? Absolutely.
01:06:19
So, okay, so I'm learning through your videos a lot about Jesus as the high priest and the
01:06:25
Atonement and how they kind of correlate together In your debate with dr.
01:06:31
Brown on the Atonement you guys spoke of Leviticus 16 and Who the
01:06:38
Atonement was made for at Yom Kippur? Dr. Brown says that it's all of Israel and whoever draws near by faith receives the
01:06:47
Atonement and that his His view is actually consistent a consistent view
01:06:53
In his view with Jesus Atonement that Jesus died for all men and whoever comes by faith
01:06:58
Receives that Atonement and kind of in light of you know, Hebrews 725 and I wanted to get your thoughts on dr.
01:07:06
Brown's comment of his view being consistent the consistent one of the Old Testament view in Leviticus 16 that it was made for all of Israel and whoever came received it and that Same with Hebrews 725 that Jesus made it for all men and then whoever receives it whoever comes
01:07:25
They are the ones who received the Atonement Well, one of the main problems is that it it seems to be based on the idea that the
01:07:32
Atonement is something that exists in and of itself that is then offered to people the reality is the sacrifices were offered to God and the question was whether God Accepted it and the question is for whom is it made in other words?
01:07:47
Do we really have substitutionary Atonement? Because I I personally think that Substitute the concept of substitution is a reformed concept.
01:07:58
It is it is not a non reformed concept and When you turn the
01:08:04
Atonement into a potentiality You end up making the nature of our union with Christ the result of our choices and decisions rather than an actual participation in the death of Christ, so the idea from their perspective is that Christ provides something and then by my free will choice
01:08:32
I Make it so that I get benefits from that, but how could my free will choice?
01:08:38
Actually unite me with him in his death Um that would that that ends up it seems obvious that In the language that's used in a
01:08:51
New Testament Christ atones for his people and the idea that his people is undefinable until the end days when now now again
01:09:02
The the the open theist would have a different direction here. The open theist could be consistent He could be consistent and actually affirm, but if they want to say on the one hand well
01:09:13
God knows who's it's gonna who it's gonna be well, then it's not their quote -unquote autonomous choice Because he knows who it's going to be and that's the way it is and it couldn't be any way other or God's foreknowledge can be and that's why
01:09:24
I think a lot of these guys Don't want to have that discussion the discussion about the nature of God's knowledge these things
01:09:31
But back to the issue back to the issue in Leviticus Um The what
01:09:36
I was trying to explain to Michael is When you say it's for all of Israel, you're making it merely a potentiality
01:09:43
When the New Testament writers look at Israel, they clearly recognize the difference between Israel that circumcised of the heart
01:09:50
Israel it isn't between the remnant and those that are not and so you when when you ask
01:09:57
What did the sacrifice point to? How how was that relevant to the reprobate kings of Israel Who had know that their their hearts were were not circumcised
01:10:10
They were they were not worshippers of God Are you really saying that the sacrifice of the high priest was for them and it was?
01:10:22
their Non But well, not even non -belief
01:10:27
I mean they would say they believed that Yahweh had commanded it, but there wasn't a actual relationship with Yahweh.
01:10:33
So the the connection between the high priest in the New Testament and The Old Testament again becomes weakened or even broken because you have something completely different going on If in reality, well, you know what we're looking at in Hebrews 725
01:10:49
Those who draw near to God through him Who was drawing near to God now,
01:10:55
I don't believe and again, I've pointed this out it stuns me when people look at Hebrews 725 which is all about the capacity of Christ to save to the uttermost and Then he go.
01:11:09
Yeah, but he can only save the uttermost those who contribute the action of their coming There is nothing meritorious.
01:11:16
There is nothing this is a description This is a description of of of those who are saved by Christ are those who come through him
01:11:25
Rather than those who do not that's just a description. It's not saying that their actions somehow
01:11:32
Actuates something in the Atonement that wouldn't be there. Otherwise and so I like like like winger like exactly.
01:11:40
Yeah Yeah, that's that's what Mike says and so when I look at what's happening in the
01:11:45
Old Testament look at Leviticus chapter 16 and I see that what is being established there is purposefully
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Intentionally meant to provide the background of what the great fulfillment is going to be
01:11:58
Then I ask the question it with New Testament eyes Am I able to see something here that will make that connection clear and I do
01:12:08
What you see is the fact that you have? God by his spirit working in certain individuals who receive the
01:12:16
Covenant signs under the Old Covenant and Not in all That's what makes the
01:12:22
New Covenant better It's better because they will all know me from the least to the greatest.
01:12:28
That's not the case under the Old Covenant They did not know they did not all know they bore the
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Covenant signs. They were all circumcised and The king may have gone to the temple on Yom Kippur But he would that he did not have the matter within him
01:12:45
He did not have a circumcised heart and so the Old Covenant you had people whose sins were not forgiven and You had some who were called the remnant and so the
01:12:55
New Covenant then becomes they shall all know me all their sins are to Be forgiven. How is that possible?
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Because they have a better mediator. So who are they who are coming to to worship God? they're the elect and so You had you had the same and an unbelieving
01:13:12
Israelite in Leviticus 16 is not in the view of Moses when he's saying this offering is being made for Israel.
01:13:22
So it it's interesting It goes sort of back to the question earlier on Romans 11, and I'll bet you're rich. You weren't writing down calls again
01:13:30
Because who is Israel, you know, even when we're looking at Romans 11 Who's who is
01:13:37
Israel there? Is there a is there when when Paul says we are the true Israel Who worship
01:13:43
God in spirit and in truth? Where is he getting that? Is that is that something new? Or is that always been the case?
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How'd where'd that come from people, you know people read that and they go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay and stuff stopping and going
01:13:57
You know if that's something new, why didn't Paul explain it? He didn't explain it because it's always been the way
01:14:05
There's always been the reality that there was a true Israel that that truly worshiped Yahweh. And then there were those that They they had the covenant signs, but they weren't worshipping
01:14:14
God. I mean, that's what the prophets are sort of about, you know I think yeah, you know, so and yeah, go ahead and I just Christ with Christ mediation
01:14:27
He mediating Because I'm still learning a lot about the him as a high priest and his his intercession for us and His intercession, is that also for the non?
01:14:42
Believing elect the ones who haven't yet in time um
01:14:49
To be regenerated. Well since well, here's the only balanced way to answer that is to recognize that if the elect
01:14:59
Are a fixed number that result from God's Sovereign choice then they are united with Christ and His death becomes their death his resurrection their resurrection
01:15:15
There was if you listen to what I my response to Alan and others
01:15:21
I'm working through it right now. Okay a couple hours long. It is it is one of the last objections
01:15:27
I dealt with I don't think came from David Allen. It came from another fellow in Emerald in And it was the idea that they're objecting to a decreed old concept
01:15:35
I don't know how you anybody who pretends to be reformed the decrees behind everything But anyway, the the argument was that if if all the elect are united with Christ And then they brought up the same thing
01:15:49
Well, but we're all under the wrath of God so that it couldn't be and then that means eternal justification
01:15:54
No, I don't believe in eternal justification When you talk about intercession
01:16:01
This is not a separate work from the cross it is the
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Continuation of the finished aspect of that because the Sun is not standing offering
01:16:15
He is seated and I think one of the most beautiful pictures that is the lamb In Revelation chapter 5 he's standing what as if slain so he has the marks of The sacrifice but he is now alive.
01:16:30
And so he's standing as if slain so it's the the tendency of an east of a
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Western thinker is to Categorize everything and break things up And so the work on the cross is one thing then intercession is the second thing that finishes the work on the cross
01:16:46
No, the work on the cross is whole and complete in of itself The perfect life is given in behalf, but all
01:16:53
Christians no matter who they are Have to deal with how can that be relevant to people who were not alive in Jerusalem at that time?
01:17:02
there has to be a proleptic type of application over time that allows for the eternal nature of who
01:17:11
Jesus is and yet the working out of the calling out of the body of Christ over time and so when we ask about the
01:17:22
Intercession the intercession is certain for all of the elect But now we're asking is there a temporal aspect in?
01:17:34
Heaven that somehow has to take into consideration Where we are in the fulfillment of God's decree and when he's drawing his elect to himself upon earth and I don't think scripture gets into that.
01:17:49
The only people who are going to care And have any knowledge of the intercessory work of Christ are those who have already bowed the knee to him in the first place
01:17:58
So the theoretical question Well, let me put this way Theoretical question is
01:18:05
Christ interceding for someone who has not yet been saved If so, all that brings about is the absolute certainty of the fact that they will be saved
01:18:15
Yeah, because because because when you think about it The the whole foundation of believing that there is a people of low foundation, you know, everybody sings this song of singing
01:18:26
Before the throne of God. My name was written up on his hands The whole foundation of that is a complete denial of open theism, by the way but it's also a confession that we recognize that our birth was certain at the cross and That we will live until the appointed day
01:18:48
When God by his spirit is going to raise us to spiritual life But of course, that's just all fulfillment of Psalm 139.
01:18:54
Anyways, my days are written in his book He he's determined all that anyways, but the point is that if there is an intercession it is this one is one of mine and I am going to raise him up at such -and -such time and therefore
01:19:12
That's going to guarantee that so but that's not really discussed because the only yeah, the only discussion that's given to us is
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Directed to those who have already experienced that regeneration and hence want to understand
01:19:25
How they can have peace with God what the nature of that is and to glory therein Absolutely, and I have one more question
01:19:33
One quick one It's not like everybody has most most people out there don't have a whole lot to be doing right now
01:19:40
Yeah, exactly Well here in Arizona, we're sort of going yeah, whatever yeah
01:19:52
So in light of Romans 9 with the twins who've done nothing good or bad If God's election is unconditioned election unto salvation is based upon Nothing that the twins did good or bad
01:20:06
It seems like it seems that his reprobation is almost conditional non
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Unconditional and every time I hear you talk about you know Kind of the reprobate
01:20:23
I guess you would call it it would be you know, well the rebel the rebel sinner there, you know They hate God they are fighting against God and It seems that his election to salvation is unconditional but his
01:20:37
Reprobation seems to be conditional upon their being rebel sinners And I just wanted it's been noodling around in my head for a long time.
01:20:45
Well need a little clarification on yeah Well a couple things first of all we have to avoid what's called equal ultimacy which identifies
01:20:57
The decree of election and the decree of reprobation as as being Equal to one another they are not one is an extension of grace requiring the cross
01:21:08
The other is an exercise of divine power in justice They are very different in their in their nature but the issue in Romans 9 is
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Similar to what you have a little bit later Romans 9 is out of the same lump To make one vessel for honor and a vessel for dishonor
01:21:31
Is that lump Being viewed as fallen or unfallen this is part of the in -depth discussions of Reprobation and I'm sorry of super lapsarianism and infralapsarianism that is where does the fall
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Come in in regards to the logical
01:21:59
Ordo salutis in God's mind It's not it's not a temporal thing.
01:22:05
It's it's where does the fall Enter into these things and we don't have time to get into that today, but yeah,
01:22:14
I See 9 11 being paralleled later in chapter 9 when you have
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Making out of the same lump one vessel for honor and other vessels for for dishonor
01:22:27
God does have a purpose according to election That would stand and it's not based upon Works would because of him who calls so the election is positive and it's not based upon foreseen
01:22:43
Merit activity anything else and despite what some people say That's just a reading of Paul not of many
01:22:51
But you'll see if you didn't see the last program But this is focused upon Jacob I loved
01:22:58
Esau I hated and the amazing thing about that is the Jacob I loved part But you also have to realize that Romans 5 came before Romans 9
01:23:06
And so you already have the fallenness of man and Adam you already have Two humanities the out and the humanity and Adam and humanity in Christ, and so that's already a part of the background
01:23:16
That is there So I'm not sure if that answers your question But it does you have to be taken into consideration when you're looking at where Paul is coming from at this point
01:23:27
Okay, you so much for taking my call and thank you so much for I'm working through the sovereign grace of God right now
01:23:32
I'm gonna get the Potter's freedom afterwards, so I appreciate this all you've done and what you've done in my life. I appreciate it Thank you.
01:23:37
Thank you Michael. God bless Yeah, those poor folks and all of those
01:23:44
Communist states over there on the left on the left coast, you know just We Are very we are way too close.
01:23:51
There's no two ways about it, but I think they're afraid to come over here because they know We've got more guns and ammo than than all of California.
01:24:00
I Know and then they then they turn us into them. That's the problem. Yeah, I know.
01:24:06
I know I know anyway So we all I was gonna try to wrap up toward the top of the hour
01:24:15
And failed miserably again, but that's okay And you failed miserably to jot down any of the topics of the phone calls
01:24:25
So how many times we're gonna have to do this? Yeah, there was one on Hebrew 725.
01:24:32
Thanks. Appreciate that Anyway, well our plan is to be here again tomorrow.
01:24:40
We're just we're just trying to to be there with you in the midst of of your
01:24:49
Isolation I'm Just driving around doing my whole thing But I've never been a social butterfly in the first place.
01:24:57
So I mean, it's like You know, but what can I say? Any we're living in our
01:25:06
COVID -19 paradise Whatever you want to call it, whatever you want to call it.