Cultish: The Postmodern Maze of Mormonism Vol. 2, Pt. 1

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Cultish: The Postmodern Maze of Mormonism Vol. 2, Pt. 2

00:00

Hey, what's going on everyone? This is Jeremiah Roberts one of the co -hosts here at cultish

00:05

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Which is shop cultish comm and that will also help support the studio and also help support cultish as we push forward into 2022 all right.

01:21

Our guest today is Bradley from the YouTube channel. God loves Mormons We had a great conversation up in Utah's a little bit of a different studio a couple weeks ago

01:32

And so enjoy the first part of this podcast as we talk about the postmodern maze of Mormonism This is the second time we've talked about this.

01:40

So I hope you enjoy the podcast All right. Welcome back. Ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults.

01:47

My name is Jeremiah Roberts One of the co -hosts here you guys knew who I am you also know my trusted co -host and Trusted super sleuth.

01:56

We are here in the super secret cultish headquarters up here Well, it's in Hermann, Utah and that's not as secret

02:03

So, you know at least you know now the city kind of have it narrowed down there So you guys know us but we have a guest with us in studio today.

02:09

We are Broadcasting here from this is really Andrews vantage points. If you watch us on YouTube, you always see

02:15

Andrew behind the That in front of it in front of it and a little not cool little 80s arcade neon theme.

02:23

I love that I got to get one of those myself, too I'm digging that I'm loving this place and we got a little cultish posters going on This is sort of becoming feel this place feels a lot more

02:32

It feels a lot more homey homely than the studio maybe because it's inside of your apartment Yeah, now you're telling people now since I have an apartment in Hermann, Utah Jerry.

02:40

It's better than my mom's basement Yeah, some people we got a comment on there, but um, we've got a guest with us today

02:45

We're gonna be kind of just talking about really just the state of Mormonism about a year I actually know right when we started we did a series called the postmodern maze of Mormonism So this is just kind of a follow -up to that.

02:56

So just real quickly. Tell us your name What's your all about and you have a YouTube channel just kind of tell us a little bit about yourself.

03:02

Yeah My name is Bradley. I am one of the pastors at the Mission Church in South Jordan, Utah I moved out here from Chicago about five ish years ago beginning of 2017

03:14

And when I moved out here, I knew absolutely nothing about the LDS Church In fact, I knew so little that when

03:20

I got here, I didn't even know Utah was significant for Mormonism I just thought it was another state and so I came out here and I'm like, oh,

03:25

I guess there are lots of Mormons here That's good. I was just totally ignorant of everything about the church and I started doing street evangelism stuff and down near Temple Square Weekly started learning tons about the

03:38

LDS Church and the the guy who planted the Mission Church Around a decade ago

03:44

He had started a online video ministry called God loves Mormons and the whole aim of that was to create short five six seven minute videos that addressed particular

03:56

Topics doctrinal topics in Mormonism and explained here's why the Bible disagrees with this So not a super long, you know hour to hour podcast format not an article

04:05

But something that someone could quickly be like, hey watch this video and maybe it'll help you understand Why Christians don't believe we need a modern prophet like the

04:12

LDS Church says we do or temples or something like that And so we that ministry has grown

04:19

God those Mormons comm as our website and we have a YouTube channel And so yeah, we we've branched out from that now we make kind of videos of all different lengths but still our bread and butter is targeting specific doctrines and and ideas and practices within Mormonism and Evaluating them from a biblical worldview biblical standpoint and saying here are the verses that you have to get over You you have to deal with if you're a

04:40

Latter -day Saint you have to deal with this verse I believe 20 verses on this topic and issue and so, you know, it's a little bit a little bit of our ministry

04:47

So so tell us about your trial by fire with Mormonism because everyone has when Jerry has a story with Pastor James rescuing him his trial by fire my trial by fire with the

04:57

Colts was a World Mission Society Church of God person in Walmart who tried to twist me into a doctrinal pretzel and I was like I need to learn

05:02

More about what I believe in order to have these good conversations. So what what is yours? Yep, so it was like my first second day out in Utah I was living in the basement of the planting pastor in our church and he called up some missionaries and he was like Hey, I have

05:17

I have this guy that you should meet so they came over and he was like, yeah

05:22

Just go have fun spend some time with them. So they took me to I think it was the bishops house And we sat down and they just walked through the first of their their six lessons

05:33

Yeah, and I knew I mean absolutely nothing which means every potential pitfall and trap that there that existed

05:41

I fell right into but there were very legitimate questions. I was like, what do you do with this verse? Honestly, what do you do with this?

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And I was like you can't just add for us as a tagline on every verse about the nature of God I mean, so I Started discovering all this stuff and they kept meeting with me

05:56

I forget how long I met with that exact pair because eventually they handed me off to the missionaries that were at their young Singles Ward I kind of assigned there

06:04

So I started meeting with those missionaries once they had handed me off boys. So you were single too at the time I was so they're they're like, okay, we're gonna get him.

06:12

Yeah by getting him to a relation. Yeah Yeah, I was dating my now wife at the time. But yeah, I imagine that might have been on their mind so in any case

06:20

I started meeting with these other missionaries and We got connected with kind of a circle of friends at that YSA young singles

06:29

Ward and They would gather groups of people and then bring the missionaries over and so I'd sit down with them and they'd ask questions and I'd bring up verses and I'd have to go back and then research everything they were talking about and be like Oh, there is a verse about baptism for the dead in the

06:48

Bible who put that there I don't know there and so I'd have to study it and figure out what was going on And they just kept adding more people every time

06:55

I come back. They'd be like, oh, this is you know, this is our bishop Oh, this is our mission president. Oh, this is the stake president and then eventually

07:02

I think the second to last or last week they had one of the 70 that that came and Hi, I do not remember much

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But yeah, we were sitting there and talking and one of them the missionaries

07:16

There was a pair of sister missionaries and she's made it there was just a transfer.

07:22

I'm pretty sure she was brand -new I hadn't met with her as long as the her partner They asked me something about polygamy or we started talking about polygamy and I I wish

07:32

I had remembered the details but they made a statement that I knew at that point was just false and As soon as she said it

07:39

I was like that's not true and she kind of you know, so sulked back a little bit and I was like and I think you know

07:45

That's not true. And they like all went silent and I said that probably ended my run

07:51

So we're gonna end on a high note and I went hard preach the gospel I just I just laid it out and I was like guys you you are

08:00

Blatantly disregarding what the Bible says you are at enmity with God You need to know that you're following false prophets and all these things we've been talking about you have these answers

08:09

But come on, you know, they're not sufficient Yeah, you know that there are issues with your answers. You yourselves have admitted that some of those things are not satisfying and So I just hammered up the gospel with them and I never saw them again

08:23

The end of that yeah And I think it's also just says we kind of jump in this conversation Is that you know, there might be people listening in who are

08:30

LDS or Mormon if you still call yourself that depending But you know a lot of times we get labeled as an anti We're just out at the

08:39

Salt Lake Temple a rile type right outside when they're doing their conference in downtown Salt Lake We were just there.

08:45

I still got a little summer. I forgot it was even though it's overcast. I'm like, oh, yeah There's still a Sun out there. I was like feeling it around like four o 'clock

08:50

But in many ways as we unravel this discussion is that you mentioned earliest that they're the theology like that's what your

08:58

YouTube channels really aimed at in your conversation. This is not we have no animosity towards, you know, our

09:04

LDS friends and neighbors We love them for Christ's sake and we want them to come to know the truth of the gospel

09:10

The true gospel of Jesus Christ, but the issue of what we are contending with is the theology not them as a person

09:17

Yeah, so I actually like your YouTube channel seems that somebody who would be an antagonist would see.

09:24

Oh, why are they saying that? I thought they're anti why are they saying that God loves Mormon? So I kind of I like the playoff of it

09:30

So I just want to state that so as we kind of jump in here Describe we'll kind of go around the table.

09:36

I'll bounce it back to you So we're kind of really talking about the state of the

09:42

Mormon Church We all have unique and distinct vantage points So, you know you talked about how you kind of got introduced through this conversation going all the way up to the quorum of the 70

09:51

Like what when you jumped into your engagement with? Mormons, like how have you seen just changes amongst the

09:59

LDS Church? Yeah, I know that I know I have I have a distinct vantage point as well, too But I love to hear that Yeah that's wild to me because I guess

10:07

I would expect if there were modern prophets that there would be a great level of consistency and Kind of a static foundation of doctrine and belief and even language used

10:16

I've been out here for five years I mean there are guys who've been out here for decades I'm a brand new guy to Utah relatively speaking and I have seen pretty fairly dramatic shifts in the way people talk about their doctrine and in just that amount of time and so one of the things that is really dramatically distinct that I found in that amount of time is

10:37

There has been such an increase of the trying to unite around Commonalities and there then there even was five years ago.

10:45

So people will say no, we're really the same We're really we really have mostly the same

10:51

Ideas and thoughts. I mean we both believe in Jesus. We both believe in God We both believe in you know revelation and whatnot with so there are differences, but they're very minor when

10:59

I got out here I feel like people were much more honest about like no, there are there are distinctions Differences and even then they downplayed them, but I feel like people were quicker to admit that Than they are now and also all of the doctrine across the board has shifted more liberal

11:18

Now part of this might be a demographic shift. We used to do evangelism down by Temple Square It's under construction right now

11:25

And so we shifted to go near Provo and the demographic is much younger We have lots of BYU students or people who graduated from BYU And so I wonder if that plays into that that my experience is perhaps different But I do think by and large that is the direction of the church shifting kind of almost mainstream

11:44

Protestant liberal Yeah, lots of categories. Yeah, there's there's a real emphasis to try and promote themselves as just another

11:52

Christian denomination. I remember getting an ad recently that said hey you're looking are you looking to find a good church in the valley?

12:00

in Mesa where I live and Mesa is also a major hub center of Mormonism as well to where I'm from and Like I remember just it was it was two people

12:09

I think it was two African American ladies and they were you know Smiling looking really happy in the picture and in the background you could see the church later behind You could see that how the typical

12:18

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints logo, but it was blurred out So it was very subtle, but also very indicative of the fact.

12:24

They're just trying to fit in. I'm curious Because you've been around this for five years It was around that time.

12:31

Maybe a little prior to that when they were really pushing The being proud being a proud

12:37

Mormon. Yeah, you remember they have the campaign My name is so -and -so and I'm a Mormon, right?

12:43

And so they have that campaign you guys can look that up on YouTube, but not only that but you would have I think there's a documentary that was produced by the church if I'm not mistaken meet the

12:51

Mormons and That was just there to show hey We're just like you were great Pete Mormons are nice and wonderful people big

12:57

PR thing and all of a sudden that changed We're now they're trying to get away from the name as much as possible.

13:05

But tell me that will your talents before the podcast? I'm you're gonna love this. Yeah, so seriously the week before conference we have you know, our

13:14

God those Mormons tracts We print out our own tracts and we have seven of them. They ask like do we still need temples as Mormonism Christian?

13:20

do we still need a prophet and things like that and the is Mormonism Christian was like my favorite to use because I would get people to stop and talk all the time a lot of Times to be slightly like how could you say we're not

13:30

Christians and that was great because we could get into some of the doctrine very quickly And so it was seriously the

13:36

Thursday before conference. We used all that gear and it wasn't a problem Everyone was fine with it. And then

13:42

You know Russell Nelson came out and said no we are we are members of the Church of Jesus Christ You know members of the

13:48

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints Mormon is more of a derogatory term and seriously the next week

13:54

I had people who are like I cannot believe how offensive you're being to us that you would slander us like that and call us

14:01

Mormons and I was like guys I printed this more than a week ago This is this is material we've had for a while and there was not an issue until this last week

14:09

And so yeah, the name change thing was it was surprising to me just how quickly that shifted even just culturally it became kind of looked down upon to use that term

14:20

Mormon and Now I still get that but it feels like the intensity of that has lessened people are more.

14:27

Okay with me as not Latter -day Saints saying the Mormon they're like they don't use it, but yes, it's fine if I use it so it's interesting to kind of see that initial spike of it was really a big deal and then it's kind of Waned and its significance in the last couple years interesting

14:44

Andrew, I don't know if I've ever even asked you this I can't believe it's taken we this we're almost we're four years almost four years in a cult ish

14:50

Yeah, it's curious Did you have Mormon interactions prior to you coming to Apologia because I mean that's initially how we met and then culture started and obviously

14:59

You know, we that's our bread and butter. We'll get into that. Well, did you have any interactions prior to apology with Mormons?

15:06

Yeah, I definitely did growing up in Arizona as well So I think my first interaction with an

15:12

LDS person I was in high school and we were talking about Jesus and then someone was talking about how the cross is

15:19

Sickening like sickened them to think about the cross like that's what Jesus was crucified on and in me I was like, what is this?

15:26

What what are they talking about? Like I get your emotional plea and then they explain that you know

15:32

They're they're LDS and I had really no idea what that was I'd actually been in a

15:37

Mormon temple once before it was one I think the first one built in Albuquerque one of my mom's friends took me and I was about Nine years old and I got to go to the opening of it

15:47

You know make you put on the booties and stuff like that. And I remember just feeling really weird I was like, where where am

15:52

I? Like this is just the most oddest thing. So yeah, I've had I've had interactions with LDS people in terms of Theology and doctrine

16:01

I'd say I did a more started studying that around 2016 2017

16:06

Yeah, so yeah, so from there's when I really started to understand the main differences. I read a book from Anthony Hekima Which was called the four major cults and it did

16:15

Christian science Jehovah's Witnesses Mormons and I forget what the African one was, but I read through those ones right there

16:22

Yeah, and just with your interactions from you know Being part of apologia and the outreach you're doing ward outreach and then also, you know working

16:30

Alongside me the cultish like what what observations have you seen just about you know

16:35

The LDS folks that you were dealing with from that time all the way now to being, you know Roughly around six months into this church plan here in in Salt Lake in Salt Lake like what?

16:46

Aspects. Have you seen changes on your end? Just with just with a common folk that you interact with Yeah, I think what what's been blowing my mind the most is the fact that they're going from being proud of actually being separated from Christianity to now that they're trying to just put on those sheep's clothing so hard or there's like a confusion like there's a there's a spirit of confusion that I've been seeing within the younger generation of people who call themselves

17:13

Latter -day Saints where They almost really do think they're Christian now like they sometimes they really do

17:19

I don't know if it's a it's a way to get in a conversation with somebody to where you want to find like just like You said similarities or commonalities within the other person.

17:27

Maybe that's how they start it But first for some reason there's this weird relativism at play within Latter -day

17:34

Saints I think they're taking some of their beliefs to their logical conclusions, right? Like yeah, every religion has a grain of truth, but their prophet restored all truth, right?

17:44

so if they take that to their logical conclusion they think about a Hindu person or they think about someone who's

17:49

Hare Krishna and they Literally think that these people have actual truth, right? just not the full truth so they can

17:56

I think if you're a Latter -day Saint if you could very easily fall into the trap of Relativism and I think it's happening and it's like the spirit of Mormonism to me is a spirit of confusion

18:06

And I'm just seeing these really confused people that don't have a standard of truth that are literally just like wading through the water

18:14

Man, and it's like a drowning spiritually. I don't know. It's not like what I see Yeah, I've seen that especially with some of the videos you've had that you've caught when you're out and it was what's the location where?

18:24

You guys want on Thursdays again? That's Provo. Yeah, we got Mission Church Yeah, that's where you see a lot of the BYU students go out there and you kind of and that's usually yeah

18:33

We've had just a couple of conversations a lot of them even I think it was about six months ago We talked to that one gal who had she had left the church

18:40

But she was majoring I think in astronomy and she was super smart gal astrophysics.

18:45

Yeah, she um, she literally just Came out of the Mormon cult.

18:51

I use that word and she was now leaving BYU She was 19 years old and she was like,

18:56

I can't be here as a cult and she fell and flung from Mormonism into atheist agnosticism like that.

19:04

It was instantaneous. That's like built into the DNA Yeah of the LDS Church.

19:09

I mean if if the church isn't true, then nothing is Yeah, it it ties all these good true things to the mast of the sinking ship.

19:16

Yep And so when Mormonism goes down theism goes with it, right trust in Jesus goes with it

19:22

And so yeah, we I like to say that the exit off of the Mormon Highway is yeah straight to atheism that is where that ends

19:30

Oh a huge amount of people the majority of People who leave Mormonism and this is also you talking about all the things that are affecting

19:40

Mormonism in the post -modern, you know, just in this kind of post -modern era that they're in is that one is the age of the

19:45

Internet You know there's a lot of things that are very extremely accessible where that innates the ability for them to whitewash their history and To keep kind of keep it away from you know,

19:56

LDS folks who are looking into it And so I think there's that variable in play, but the huge majority of them do end up atheists or agnostic

20:02

So if you listen to the Mormon stories podcast, I was thinking the same thing It is honestly hard to listen to like my heart breaks for those people but I've been very much it's kind of like a misery loves company if I'm truly honest and there's just a lot of bitterness and indifference towards this organization

20:17

But like what do you what are you clinging on to except in your identity that you're an ex -mormon guys think about this

20:23

This is what kind of is really interesting to me So the the Mormon Church, I think creates many atheistic gnostics

20:29

Like, you know that if you go down to downtown Salt Lake City Bradley knows this one of the most progressive cities

20:35

I have seen in my whole life. Like it is so progressive. It is so liberal. We see those flags are everywhere

20:42

It's what's interesting to me is like the prophet in terms of how the LDS Church is changing We've always seen the

20:49

LDS Church cave to social pressures, right and Governmental pressures because they don't have a king of kings and Lord of Lords and a perfect standard of which to hold the government at Bay, they end up bowing to the government, right?

21:02

So what's funny to me is they create a bunch of atheistic gnostics and then those atheists Gnostics are the ones that are voting that actually end up changing the structure and organization of the church

21:13

Yeah, because they start bowing the knee to these people that they created and unbeknownst, but it's the logical conclusion, right?

21:20

It's weird. It feels like even Purposefully the church is trying to expand their borders to include people going that direction

21:29

I mean the number of people who are Essentially already there that you walk up to them and they're like, oh,

21:35

I'm a member of the church Which means a you know Latter -day Saint Mormon And then you start asking three questions deep and you're like wait, so you're an atheist

21:44

You don't believe a lick of anything. You're just a member of the church And the church is almost like building out there their modern

21:52

Stuff to include those people. They want to wrap those their arms around them and kind of You know be okay with that.

21:59

And so it's so weird that you say that yeah, those are the atheistic branch of X Mormons is really forming in some ways the doctrine

22:08

Yeah And the practice is essentially more so to then include them as part of underneath this umbrella

22:15

It's really a fascinating thing to observe Yeah, and I wonder you know where the end of that is like, where does that go?

22:21

Where does that in the only answer and up? Does that mean that the LDS Church is going to become so watered down in terms of practice and doctrine that you'll find a whole host

22:31

Of different doctrinal opinions and it essentially is a social club That that has a unified

22:37

Ethics code. Yeah, or is there going to kind of be a doubling down on conservative? Values and and old form doctrines and whatnot and or is there gonna be a split?

22:47

Yeah, you know, that's what I always wonder I'm like, where's the next young person who's gonna come out and say I've had a vision

22:53

I speak with God like when when is that gonna happen? Yeah, you know like yeah, why hasn't it happened?

22:58

That's what's weird. Yeah. I think the trajectory is definitely creating a vacuum for sure And it's interesting to as we jump as we unravel this that we all have, you know unique and distinct vantage points and we've all sort of jumped on this this train and Have watched this trajectory now you from you know around like three or four years ago really focusing in you roughly five years

23:18

I mean my vantage point was back in the late 90s when I was in high school

23:23

I went to a high school called Heritage Academy in Mesa, Arizona A high school that was 98 % Mormon and my

23:29

Mormon friends and my Mormon friends and classmates They were they knew their doctrine For the most part they were willing to engage and the very first thing they would bring up Hey, have you heard of the have you heard the great apostasy and they take you to the verse in Thessalonians?

23:44

Except there comes a falling away first And so they are very adamant that they were the only true church on the face of the earth so and Like they would note they knew their doctrine and they they were they were very upfront about making

23:56

Distinctives and saying I was part of a false church, you know, like you're lost here. You don't have the truth We have a true prophet you don't like very much distinctive

24:04

Whereas you look at now the majority of people will try and say oh we're just like another Christian denomination and all that and And even when you start pushing back and just sharing with them

24:16

Joseph Smith's own testimony their own first vision So they start to get very uncomfortable and very defensive.

24:21

I find it such a Swinging pendulum of where it came from. I think just for myself you can give me your thoughts in this is that I think one of the real

24:33

Turning points was when Gordon B Hinckley one of the former presidents was on I believe it was 60 minutes if I'm not mistaken and he was asked whether or not you could become a god

24:43

Which if you just research basic Mormonism, this is general Orthodox exaltation this is why you go to the temple do everything that you do as part of basic Mormonism and Hinckley kind of gave this very wishy -washy answer saying oh, that's a that's a real deep doctrine

24:59

We don't really know a whole lot about and kind of went over that and I think in many ways that was kind of like The catalyst and I find it fascinating too.

25:07

Is that even going out to the Mormon temple way back in the day? With James White and the

25:13

Alpha Omega ministries crew back when they're the the people who are spearheading this this counter cold outreach

25:18

Is that you would have people one who knew that they'd be on we'd be on the streets. They knew their doctrine and Next, you know, you'd be surrounded by 10 -15 people who were just they're like all in line even in the 80s

25:31

James and his crew like they would have people literally lines of 30 people like waiting to talk to them and their voice would be hoarse by the end of the day because there's so many people who wanted to have conversations in contrast to our

25:45

Outreach that we just did. I mean almost no one wanted to talk to us It was an uphill battle just to hand out tracks thousands of people walked by utterly uninterested.

25:55

Yeah, well thousands of yeah What do you think this is like guys behind like what I'm saying? Like, yeah, give me your thoughts on that Yeah, let me say something real quick.

26:03

What I think it is is this it's how better to not get people to ask questions about what? They believe when you just tell them that they're just like every other

26:10

Christian Right, like people are leaving the LDS church in droves when they start actually researching So when they actually think that they're

26:17

Christians They're not gonna think that they're part of something separate and different. Yeah, so it's a way they'd get people to not ask questions it's like you have a business you have an org an organization like the

26:26

LDS Church and The CEO needs to make changes. One of those changes is to say you're just a

26:33

Christian, too You know what? I mean, then they don't ask questions that they should be asking So when they come and talk to a

26:38

Christian all of a sudden they're going well I've never really thought about these things before. Yeah, I'm a Christian too. What do you mean?

26:43

And they never used to do that. I think that's part of a I think it's just a part of a change In order to yeah people members and not have them look

26:51

I think that's exactly right In thinking about what would be the impulse for them to do this whole big shift culturally?

26:58

I think it has to be a survival tactic or a growth tactic You know people are leaving they're uncovering truths that are uncomfortable about the history of the church

27:07

They're having fewer and fewer people actually join the church from the US, you know internationally

27:12

I think they're doing quite well, but in the u .s It seems like the numbers are declining and so how can we fix that?

27:18

Well, if we water down kind of the exclusive nature of what we're saying if we water down our doctrine

27:24

It becomes a lot easier for people to have a kind of cognitive dissonance For people to maybe not completely hold all the doctrines that the

27:32

LDS Church holds and still, you know retain their membership still give tithes still do all that stuff and so it has

27:38

Broadened the net for who can stay LDS if doctrine doesn't matter as much then when you're like Well, maybe

27:45

Joseph Smith really did screw up. Maybe I was maybe he wasn't a prophet or maybe he you know

27:51

Just really had some major issues But you know, I'll stay LDS because I really like what they do in terms of helping the poor

27:57

I really like that So I'm gonna stay a member and I run into that all the time and I think that it's probably their impulse

28:04

What I wonder though is if that's actually going to hurt them in the long run I mean if you water everything down suddenly you have no court to gather around.

28:12

It's yeah, you know I think they'll just keep bleeding bleeding people until it's really critical for them.

28:17

But you know, we'll see. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, and I think also just from a theological standpoint where we're kind of talking about What is the source of this trajectory and is where they're going inevitable?

28:29

and I think one of the things you have to realize too when it comes from a theological standpoint is that You know revelation the consistency of revelation is always contingent upon the revelator

28:39

And so in Mormonism if you have a God who was once a man who lived on another planet and followed his laws and ordinances of the inner beings to the gospel and achieved exaltation as and like that they want to attain and Also, not only that the

28:55

God of Mormon is also constantly evolving and constantly progressing, you know They just passed the 200th anniversary.

29:02

It was three years ago I think was the 200th anniversary of the first vision, right? And so in that 200 years from a theological standpoint the

29:09

God of Mormonism has constantly Elohim as I call him has constantly been evolving and changing and developing knowledge

29:16

And so in many ways like even with today's culture, you could even make an argue like maybe he's becoming more more woke

29:23

Maybe he's becoming more aware of his privilege You know, you know if you think about from a realistic standpoint and so I think in many ways the fact of Mormonism changing and being

29:33

Inconsistent like this is really inevitable and I think it's just a very interesting trajectory, but fundamentally it's a theological

29:41

Foundation where I think it's inevitable. What are you guys's thoughts on that? Micah, I'm sorry

29:47

Malachi 3 6 for I the Lord do not change. That's one of those verses you're like, oh, yeah God doesn't change but when you think about how this matter is for Christians, this is this is

29:58

Essential to our view of God if God changes we can't trust him who's to say tomorrow.

30:04

He's not a monster Today, he's faithful who's to say tomorrow. He's not who's to say tomorrow. He doesn't go woke who's to say tomorrow

30:11

He doesn't do change all those things, but if we had genuinely have an unchanging God that is remarkable that gives us as Christians such hope and confidence in the gospel such a hope and confidence in God's Word that is a

30:24

Foundational bedrock doctrine of Christianity the Lord does not change He is not a man that he should line or a son of man that he should change his mind

30:32

And those things are really important. And so I think you're exactly right we see Practically what happens when you ditch?

30:41

Immutability when you get rid of that suddenly nothing is static. Nothing has to be consistent

30:47

It can all change because even God can change that's a huge issue It shows you that like since their

30:54

God does not exist right they're constantly building him up, right? He's like He's not there.

31:01

There's pieces that fall off or doctrine that falls off They're like trying to just constantly resurrect something that it was never alive

31:07

It's an idol and they're constantly crafting that idol and shaping it to fit Culture and the world around them.

31:14

It's it's not real. Like you said a God that changes isn't a God at all Yeah, it actually shows that man is the one constructing.

31:21

Yeah, God It's showing that he's not even real and if you just look at the history of the church and some of the major If you look at any time there have been major splits and there's kind of fundamentalist sects that break off from the mainline church

31:34

It's really significant things the ending of polygamy I was that is like earth -shattering for any faithful Mormon back in the day because polygamy was one of the foundational elements of the restored gospel

31:45

You could not enter that, you know be exalted the highest level of the celestial kingdom unless you practiced polygamy

31:52

I thought that was core to the teachings of the church So to ditch that was such a huge thing and that's where you get all these these

31:58

Shoot -offs of fundamentalist groups who are like listen, I don't know what's going on with the mainline church But this is not what

32:04

Mormonism was founded on which is ironic because they still have a God that changes They don't want the you know, those practices to change but man you see the the practical

32:13

Effects of that throughout the history of the church in their their blacks in the priesthood being another big one

32:19

Let me ask you something. So in terms of polygamy, so say our culture the direction that it's headed, right?

32:25

We have LGBTQ let's say polygamy could be next right like so if there's no standard for marriage if it's not

32:33

God's Word anymore Say polygamy becomes something that's legal. What do you think the mainline

32:39

LDS? Organization would do what do you think? And that's an interesting question.

32:45

I think that a lot of times they have bowed to public consensus So it would it couldn't just be that polygamy was permissible.

32:52

It would have to be the polygamy is popular In order for that to I think come back I don't think it will be like it was in Joseph Smith's day where it was kind of a standout thing

33:02

Look, look at how distinct this is. I think it will be a following behind the the cultural time

33:07

So, you know a little bit dependent on whether or not polygamy becomes a big ticket item for the cultural wars that are currently going on I don't know that.

33:17

I think it will be I could be wrong But I guess we have seen some indications of that already.

33:24

I see a couple news articles I'm like, I guess we are heading in that direction. But yeah, that's an interesting thought. I'm not sure Yeah, I always wonder what they do because that because isn't it section 132 in the

33:33

Doctrine and Covenants talks about it Yeah, so say it comes back and now all of a sudden they're like so guess what guys yeah, you've done all of these things

33:41

But since we have we were able to do this again, it looks like you should probably get multiple wives. Yeah I feel like that would be really really intense for some people.

33:50

They'll be like, oh, no. Yeah well, you know the with a postman another Biowares that came to mind to when it just goes and describes the the state of Mormonism in regards to being postmodern and Because they don't have a foundation of absolute truth because you can't mean it's you're you have a

34:07

God who's constantly evolving and changing and He's the standard, you know They're their

34:12

God is the standard and so because he's always constantly evolving and changing you don't have a true foundation for that and reminds

34:19

Me in many ways while they claim to be the Church of Jesus Christ I believe there's a more a more appropriate name in true honesty

34:26

And again, this is aimed at their theology not the LDS people. We love them we want them to know

34:31

Christ, but it's a John 18 the conversation between Jesus and Pontius Pilate and Pilate said to him and this is

34:39

John 18 37 where it says and Pilate said to him You are a king and Jesus said you say that I am a king for this purpose.

34:46

I was born and For this purpose. I have come into the world to bear witness to the truth Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice and Pilate said to him.

34:56

What is truth? I think in many ways I think the more appropriate name is really the

35:02

Church of Pontius Pilate and Just because they don't have they don't have a true foundation as Christians We can know that we have peace with God and we have assurance with God and that our sins are forgiven and that God grants

35:15

Repentance one because not contingent upon us is contingent upon the sin bearer but we know for example in Hebrews chapter 4 when talks about Christ being our great high priest and He am having an unchangeable priesthood but being able to intercede for us and therefore

35:30

I love that verse It says therefore let us find let us draw near to him so that we may find grace and mercy in the time of need

35:37

I know that applies for me the same way it Applied to you know, the

35:44

Christians who wrote who read Hebrews for the first time because God is unchangeable So it was the same

35:50

Holy Spirit That inspired the text that Illuminated the text to comfort me in the same way it comforts to you in the same way

35:57

It's going to comfort your children in the future and your children's children And so you have that consistency and ultimately this really is an example of the foolish man built

36:07

His house upon the sand really speaking about the worldviews here. Yeah Here's a whole nother variable to throw into the mix.

36:14

Yes, you think your thoughts about this? So above Heavenly Father is this eternal law that Supposedly is static and eternal and in some sense is the actual

36:25

God of Mormonism actually determines the practices and whatnot How do you think that influences this because if God changes and progresses, but the eternal law doesn't

36:36

Do you think that that matters at all? Do you think that people think about that or appeal to that what has been some of your experience curious?

36:42

Yeah, I've never I've never spoken to an LDS man yet who is appealed to the eternality of the eternal law of progression as like a personal

36:52

Deity in a sense since it's kind of just like yeah I'm just like I have as a personal deity, right? It's like kind of just like something floating in the ether like it's this law that is just there from all

37:01

Eternity, but what you're saying essentially is is that there's any there's this eternal law that may be

37:08

God Elohim in their religion again, which I don't think even exists neither. None of us do here, but supposedly

37:16

There is this thing floating in the ether to where that God is still learning about Right.

37:21

So if we're thinking that God can change and he can get more revelation and learn more while he is in heaven now

37:27

He's maybe just learning more about the law of eternal progression through his spirit children and their free agency on earth

37:32

So he's just getting More knowledge and then he has to give that knowledge then to his prophet on earth.

37:38

Sure. Does that make sense? It does it does that is weird to me. Yeah, it doesn't make sense. That's not a all -powerful

37:43

All -knowing omniscient God like who God is described in the Bible. That's not his his character.

37:50

It's not his nature It's just really odd to me Yeah, not just the eternal law of progression is that you have we there's a thing is called a eternal intelligence and matter where The God didn't actually create the world

38:03

And out of nothing ex nihilo via Genesis 1 it was it was a reorganization

38:09

They reorganized the already on the materials that were already there That's really where it came from.

38:16

So yeah, but ultimately, you know, that is a good question Like is the God of Mormonism contingent upon this is the eternal law of progression the absolute and where did who?

38:26

Who is the creator of the eternal law of progression? Yeah, it introduces a whole big Question mark into Mormonism when you think about that if you think about it, too

38:35

If God is constantly learning more about this eternal law of progression Then that means he doesn't even know what the eternal law of progression is

38:41

Yeah But what's cool about the God of the Bible is he actually cares so much about us to know who he is that he actually

38:47

Came down in the flesh Yeah to show us who he was and not only show us who he was but to die for us.

38:54

It's it's so beautiful He's given it to us in his word. I like to tell the LDS person about Isaiah 43 10

38:59

It says that you are my witnesses declares the Lord the servants of whom I have chosen that you may know

39:06

Understand and believe that I am he because a lot of the times when you're speaking to an LDS person They're like, I just don't

39:11

I don't think that's something you can know about God He's just so big and I go well He says in his word that we can know him that he wants us to know him

39:20

He cares so much he took on flesh, right? Yep. Yep. It's my mind I think about Romans 1 even though it's not talking specifically about scriptures talking about general revelation

39:28

But the whole idea is that what got what can be known about God has been made plain to them and that's interesting because it

39:35

Tells us that there are things that can be known about God and the things that can be known about God are the things that God has revealed to us

39:40

So when we look at scripture if we go if we finish scripture and we say and I wish I could know about God We have missed what he's trying to do.

39:48

It is a disclosure of his nature. It's self -revelation He is he is speaking about who he is and revealing that what can be known about God is

39:56

Plain to those who have his revelation both in nature generally and specifically in his word and so there certainly are things that can be known about God and and to say that there isn't is a is

40:09

Denying the sufficiency of scripture and it's denying that God can actually do what he says

40:14

He can't it's denying the power of God. He's not able to communicate clearly enough Yeah, and and that's a whole nother issue and there and no

40:22

It's just one thing as we kind of wrap up the first part of this episode I think a big aspect of where the church is from there

40:28

Obviously you have a theological standpoint But even from his very beginning a lot of these decisions are affected by the theology

40:34

But primarily these are also financial decisions so in many ways even from his origins is that you look at like Mormonism as a money -making machine and So that's what you that's what you see going on a lot.

40:47

And so One example too and this is something that Dan Tate talked about when he was on a mission trip

40:53

There was somebody who came to one of the missionary training sessions and it was a very well -known apostle at the time and He essentially was pushing them on What's the real purpose of you?

41:07

Going on a mission trip and believe it or not his statement and it surprised me. It's not about getting converts he said that the purpose of a missionary going on a mission then when that when they come back and They right away they typically get married in the temple that's usually that was the case is also when

41:25

I went to Heritage Academy most of the people who are going on missions like People would come back and the plan was to get married as soon as they came back

41:32

He said the purpose was to create for every missionary that comes back.

41:37

I believe I said it creates at least ten temple attending tithe paying descendants

41:46

So in a sense, it's almost you call it missionary flipping This is creating this is solidifying them as a member of the church and in many ways

41:55

They're doing it in a in a way to maintain loyal loyalty and financial stability

42:01

And but you also see a lot of even what's going on is our financial decisions and also the

42:06

PR So one thing that came out was well to see if you remember this you remember the Joseph Smith letters that came out and it was like 2015 and When this article came out it shows again

42:17

We were just at the general conference doing outreach. It showed the amount of times that Joseph Smith was referenced in the

42:25

LDS in there in the conference and Since 2015 it's dwindled down substantially where he's barely even mentioned

42:34

Except you know, except the fact that he we know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God I and that's one example to where it's almost as if they would

42:45

They'd be willing to almost get rid of Joseph Smith completely if it meant the church still just being around Yeah, I think they'd love to Distance themselves from lots of things but it's kind of hard to do when those things are like Brigham Young.

42:59

You know, I Almost never meet someone who when I bring up Brigham, they're like, oh,

43:05

I love that guy. Everyone's kind of like, yeah He existed. I think he's kind of the crazy uncle in a closet

43:12

Close the door and keep him up there. Yeah distancing themselves from anything that makes is really difficult to deal with there

43:19

Yeah, there's like there's this there's this house right night right by the creepy underpass Yeah, it's interesting

43:25

Graham to think about if you're like him if you're a Mormon missionary and you're listening to this I don't know how you got here, but I'm glad you're actually in 40 45 or 43 minutes into this but imagine

43:35

Think about this for a second. You think you're on your mission to go, you know convert the world essentially

43:41

But guess what? What if the church's mission is you? Right, like that's that's the thing

43:46

You're you're not on a mission to make converts their mission is to get you to have family who become tithe paying members of the

43:53

Church, they're actually on a mission to indoctrinate you. Have you thought about that? Mmm, have you thought about it?

43:59

You're the mission You're the mission Really really sit back and and take a look at that because it blows my mind

44:06

I remember when Dan Tate did did tell us about that story When he was on his mission in a Florida, I believe when that guy came in that's very sad.

44:14

It's very sad It's very insidious and thinking about Missionaries and a lot of these guys are very genuine very sincere.

44:23

Yeah, very honest and they They desire to do what is right?

44:29

And I I really appreciate the zeal in some sense But what

44:34

Paul says in Romans 10 is that though they had a zeal for God that did not have a zeal for God according to Knowledge and that zeal was misplaced

44:42

Sincerity zeal good intentions. Those things are not what make you right with God Those things are not what makes something good or right and pleasing in his eyes

44:51

And so yeah to any missionary or Latter -day Saint who's listening? Listen your sincerity your genuine zeal

44:59

That is not the thing that is makes you right with God Paul Rather perhaps

45:04

Saul the Pharisee the one who persecuted Christians. He was zealous for God. He was zealous for the law

45:10

He was zealous to honor his Lord and yet that was not according to knowledge. He was unaware of the gospel

45:16

He was unaware of the work of Christ and I would say that that is exactly the situation of Latter -day

45:22

Saints They have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge And so while we talk about top -level issues for the church organizationally and culturally we do all that still recognizing that there are individuals that are very sincere and honest and and That's why we care so much about Correcting some of that thinking we want you to have the knowledge of the gospel because that zeal is misplaced

45:45

You know turn and turn to the gospel turn to the Christ who can save you

45:50

That's so important Yeah, and just one last thing as we were up here is that you're talking about the zeal and sincerity that they have

45:57

I remember I was talking to Mormon nice Mormon gentleman in Mason.

46:04

We were doing word outreach and he was helping direct traffic and he was a stake meeting And so I was just talking to him let him do his thing

46:09

But he definitely you want to have a genuine conversation and he was really just saying hey, you know kind of that post -modern

46:15

Hey, you're oh, I'm okay. You're okay What really matters is just that you're really passionate about your message and I love that you guys are passionate

46:21

We're passionate. That's really that's really what matters And so I was you know a good thing too when you're talking to LDS or frankly any cultist

46:29

You know, you want to be able to ask questions always ask Like frame because if you don't do it like they'll they'll they'll get defensive and their wall will come up So you never want to be come across as accusatory.

46:41

I mean you always want to look like you're seeking clarification So in a sense you want to find some sort of commonality. So I was asking so you're really just saying that The real standard is just The real common ground is that you're just Pat you're just passionate about your message and you want to get it out to people

46:54

That's what matters at the standard and I then I brought up really what Jesus says in Matthew 23

47:00

And I said, well you you believe that Jesus has speaks with authority, correct? Yes, so I brought him to Matthew 23 13 through 15

47:10

I believe where Jesus says But woe to you scribes and Pharisees and hypocrites For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces for you neither enter yourselves nor allow

47:19

Those who would enter to go in woe to you all scribes and Pharisees for you all travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte and when you do he becomes you may come twice as much a child of hell as yourselves and So that's those are very harsh words, but this is this is coming from gentle Jesus Yeah, and the reality is is that these people he was talking about they were passionate

47:45

They were wanting to get their message out But when they're doing so it was they're making twice a child of hell and so I think you know if you're listening this and you're

47:54

Mormon you need to realize too that your sincerity and and What you believe in your passion and and what you're doing all your good works.

48:02

It's not enough and so the only way you can have true rest and true certainty is

48:10

To turn from your sin believe in the true Jesus the true eternal God Then you can have assurance that you will completely have peace with God And I think it's too that when you and every single time when

48:22

I talk about them And just I just tell them like you're under a yoke You're under a burden you can see it in their eyes once they get it and my heart breaks for them because then you know

48:32

You have your family in the community. They have a great community I went to high school as 90 %

48:37

Mormon for two years and some of my best friends about best classmates I had to I went over their house for dinner really nice and sweet people, but that's a hard That's a hard way to like leave that culture even especially here in Utah Yeah, you talked about the burden that you can see and I couldn't help but think of Jesus's words in Matthew 11

48:57

When he says come to me all who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest

49:04

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I am gentle and lowly in heart and you will find rest for your souls for my yoke is easy and my burden is light when you

49:13

Think about all that Latter -day Saints have to do to be right with God. That is anything but a light burden Yes, you know keeping celestial law.

49:21

That is not an easy look. All right Well, I think that's a really good first part of this episode

49:26

I think in the next episode we're gonna probably talk a little bit more about One where they aren't now and where you think this we're all talking the trajectory or trying to hit it from multiple vantage points

49:35

I think we can also explore to where things could ultimately head up where we think this is headed and what we need to do as Christians to be able to help our

49:45

LDS friends neighbors engage them with the gospel Regardless of where the trajectory comes up because as someone

49:51

I can't remember whose name who actually said this but they said One cannot revise

49:57

Mormonism enough like one has to repent of it. Mm. Yeah, that's ultimately with What where we need to be we're gonna jump more in the end of that into part two

50:06

So if you guys enjoyed this episode definitely leave a comment on our social media Let us know as you thought and there's always a program like this cannot continue without your support

50:13

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50:19

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