March 26, 2018 Show with Chris Krotz on “Preventing & Breaking the Chains of Pornography Addiction”

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March 27, 2018

March 26, 2018: Chris Krotz, Minister at the Carlisle church of Christ, Carlisle, PA, & cofounder with Jack Dodgen of Overcome, will address: “PREVENTING & BREAKING the CHAINS of PORNOGRAPHY ADDICTION”

00:01: Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:08: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,
00:16: Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:23: Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:32: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:46: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:56: Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,
01:05: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:14: This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 26th day of March 2018.
01:22: I'm delighted to have in studio with me for the very first time as a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron, Chris Crotz, who is not only a local minister, but he is also the volunteer photographer at many of the
01:38: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio events here locally in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and he is co -founder of an organization called
01:47: Overcome, which is based on seeking to prevent and break the chains of pornography addiction for those involved in that sin, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Chris Crotz.
02:04: How's it going, Chris? It's going great, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question about pornography addiction, our email address is
02:12: ChrisArntzen at gmail .com. That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
02:20: Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and of course a subject like this is certainly going to lend itself to people wanting to remain anonymous if they are personally involved in this sin or if they have friends, family, and loved ones, colleagues, neighbors, and so on involved in this sin.
02:41: We will definitely grant your request to remain anonymous if it is a personal and private question that you are asking, but otherwise if it's just a general question, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.
03:00: First of all, before we even go into your own personal history on this subject, Chris, tell us about Overcome, exactly what it is.
03:09: It's a ministry that my friend, like you said, my friend and I, we started about five years ago, and both he and I had struggled with this sin in the past, and we had tried pretty much everything that we could think of to get rid of it, to overcome it, and we ended up doing the one thing that we didn't want to do was to talk to other people about it, but we decided that we both needed this, and we've been developing this system of accountability for five years now, and we have,
03:45: I meet with guys all over the country and the world now helping them overcome their addiction to pornography.
03:56: And what exactly does Overcome do? I know it's a website, so how do you interact with people who are seeking help with this?
04:04: So we have a podcast that we put out, we try to put it out bi -weekly, and on that we respond to questions that we get, we respond or we answer questions about, you know, how do
04:19: I tell my wife about this, you know, how do I talk to my kids about these things? So we have the podcast, we also put out articles almost every week, and we also have a video series called
04:32: Basic that we're in the process of putting out, kind of walking people through, if you don't know anything about pornography addiction or, you know, how it works and how to get free from it, that's the goal of this video series is so people can understand what it is.
04:50: And is this a video series you yourself created or are you using the... Yeah, so I record it along with my photography skills,
04:58: I also do some videography, so I do all of that, I put it out on YouTube, and it's everything on the site is completely free.
05:07: We just want to help, we want to be able to educate people and teach and help if you need it.
05:15: And of course, God willing, I'll be repeating this information later if I don't forget to, but hopefully
05:21: Chris will remind me if I forget, but for now, the website is wheniamweek .org.
05:28: That's right. wheniamweek .org, a very fitting website address. Well, now let's hear something about your own personal history, what led you to even want to start a ministry such as this, with a sin that is quite scandalous, a sin that most
05:49: Christians would feel very uncomfortable even letting it known, being letting it known public that they either have been or are involved in it.
06:02: And first of all, I want to congratulate you with the boldness that you have, that you are so concerned over the souls of people who are enslaved by the sin that you are willing to make it known that you have unfortunately and tragically been snared by this as well in your past, but tell us about your own history with this.
06:25: Absolutely. So I'll give you the shortened version, Chris, because I could, you know,
06:32: I talk about, I can talk about my past for a long time, but basically I was introduced to pornography by looking at Playboy magazines that my neighbor had when
06:46: I was around 10 years old. And unfortunately that kind of ignited the curiosity in this whole thing around that time.
06:57: Unfortunately, I was also a victim of some sexual abuse in my childhood.
07:04: And that only just worsened, you know, this curiosity and that had some shame.
07:09: And I'm sure we're going to talk about that later of what shame can do to, especially to a young person and then trying to find out, especially in your early teenage years, trying to find out who you are and what this whole, uh, you know, sexual awakening is and, uh, being attracted to girls and stuff like that.
07:29: So that did a lot, like most abuse does did a lot of damage through that.
07:35: Um, uh, I basically wanted to overcompensate for the abuse that happened.
07:41: And so before I became a Christian, I was the guy in high school, especially when
07:48: I was around the other guys and football in the locker room, that I would be the one that was bragging about the things that I've seen.
07:55: And the, you know, the, the videos that I've watched and stuff, just very, very, uh, over sexualized a lot of things in, in my life through that, uh, we got internet in the house.
08:11: We got satellite TV in the house, which only helped to worsen this addiction.
08:17: And now I had access to it whenever I want it. I became a Christian when
08:22: I was 16 years old. And then now I know that I have a problem. Not only,
08:28: I mean, I knew going through that whole thing, but this wasn't right. But now that I'm a
08:33: Christian, now I knew, okay, not only is this just morally wrong.
08:39: Now, this is a, this is separating me, separating me between me and God, but this is sin and I have to deal with this.
08:45: And so I got on this cycle of, you know, I'd go to camp. I'd be good for a month or so.
08:52: I would be able to last that long. Uh, go to a youth rally. It might be good for a week here. Really good sermon, you know, really convict me.
09:00: And I would rededicate myself that might last a week. And so I was on the cycle of continually, you know, battling this thing until, um,
09:10: I don't, I don't want to say until because it continued through this, but a year after high school, my wife and I, we got married and foolishly
09:19: I thought, well, I'll be married now and that will just take care of the problem.
09:24: I won't have to do anything because that's what married people do. Um, and that did not work out.
09:31: And, uh, sadly to say, uh, my wife found out about it. Uh, she confronted me about it.
09:37: Of course, a lot of anger, a lot of tears through that whole thing. And I told her I'll never do it again.
09:44: The problem was, is that I didn't do anything about it. I just thought I'll just decide not to do it again.
09:51: And around this time, I, I kind of knew that this was an addiction, that this is something bigger than just, you know, the stuff that I'm watching.
10:03: I, for some reason, I cannot stop, I cannot make the decision just to stop watching it.
10:10: And, uh, a year later, a year after we got married, we had our first child together and I told myself then, all right,
10:17: I gotta be done with this again. I didn't do anything about it. And then, you know, we had another kid and another kid.
10:24: I would make these same promises, but never really do anything about it. And then, uh, really, you know, to make a long story short here, this cycle continued and continued.
10:36: And I kind of became an expert on pornography addiction because I was trying to find my way out of it.
10:43: And, but I didn't want to talk to anyone about it. And so on the outside, people viewed me as,
10:48: Oh, Chris knows a lot about pornography addiction. You should go talk to him. While on the inside, I was still very much caught up in it and didn't know, didn't really know what the way out was.
10:59: I ended up going to preaching school, which is a two -year program. And towards the end of that,
11:05: I, I get, uh, hired on by a congregation that, uh, that they're going to take me, uh, as soon as I graduate.
11:12: And so I'm six months out from graduation and I is probably my lowest point,
11:18: Chris is, uh, this thinking of, all right,
11:26: I'm going to go to this church and people are going to be looking to me. I'm going to be leading people.
11:32: They're going to be looking to me for the answers and for one thing, an answer to this problem.
11:39: That is a big problem in the church today. And yet I can't find my way, my own way out of this.
11:46: So it was really a desperation move. I go to the bookstore, the
11:51: Christian bookstore, and, you know, perhaps I've already read most of the books out there that deal with this subject.
11:58: And I thought, maybe I'll find something. And I don't know if it was Providence or what, but I see a new book and I read it and it, it said some, it said to do something that I had yet to try.
12:10: And like I said, it was the one thing that I didn't want to do. And that was to talk to people about it.
12:16: And so I read the book. I said, all right, let's give this a shot. I bought two more copies of that book and I mailed it to two of my friends.
12:24: One of them was Jack Dodgen, which is the, my co -founder of Overcome and my co -host on our podcast.
12:33: And he's, he read it and says, yeah, I need this too. My other friend, he read it and he said, yeah,
12:39: I need this too. And so that's how we started. And it's been a process. And I can't say that it has been 100 % perfect on my part or anyone's part that's, that I've helped, but it has been a lot better.
12:55: And we're dealing with this sin the way that the Bible tells us to deal with any sin.
13:02: And that is to confess it, to get out from underneath it because sin, any sin, but particularly this sin, it thrives in the darkness, it festers, it multiplies in the darkness.
13:16: And the only way to get out of it is to shed the light on it. And that's what we do by confessing it to each other, by telling people,
13:24: Hey, this is, I messed up this week. This is what happened. Pray for me. And it has been extremely effective.
13:32: I've helped many men and women and married couples all throughout the world.
13:38: It was, it was kind of crazy how this thing grew that people kind of like your, your radio show here.
13:45: You don't know who's listening or who's reading the articles and stuff. And, uh, you'd get a, uh, an email, uh, from someone over in Asia that read something and said,
13:55: Hey, my husband needs some help. And, uh, I get emails weekly from people just like that all over the country.
14:02: And the ministry really is about that. We just want to help. We want to do, uh, we believe that God has gifted us with certain abilities and, uh, we're using the pain of our past to help people wherever they are.
14:18: And can you tell us the title and author of this book? That was the first thing that caught your attention.
14:24: Absolutely. This is one of the books that I recommend to anyone that, you know, I started an accountability group with, or I start talking to,
14:31: I tell them to go get the book title is open. And the author is Craig gross,
14:37: G R O S S open by Craig gross. And, uh, is, is everything in the book, something that you're on the same page with currently, or did you move beyond the material there?
14:51: Do you, do you think that there was some things in error in the book? Obviously, uh, Craig, I don't,
14:57: I'm not familiar with him, but he is not inspired by the Holy spirit, like the, like the authors of scripture were.
15:03: Uh, so, uh, tell us about that. So Craig gross is a, I don't know his, um, you know, uh, religious background as far as what church he worships at, but he is a self -professed
15:15: Christian. The book that, uh, and he's, he has several books out about the same subject open was just the one that I, that I saw that kind of detailed his style of accountability groups.
15:28: And that's what the, that's what the book is about, you know, open being open and honest about the stuff that you're going through.
15:33: And, um, he is a self -professed Christian, but we did take and adapt his, you know, his style of accountability, uh, to our liking.
15:46: Um, we, he didn't have a lot of, I don't know, even though he is a, a
15:52: Christian, he didn't have a lot of God stuff in the group. Um, like, you know, uh, including prayer in there and, um, strengthening each other with the word and, and, and stuff like that.
16:05: And so we, we added a bunch of that to it. And I would think that would be the most important. That's my argument is saying, um, that one of our requirements in our groups is that you have to pray for everyone in your group every day.
16:20: Now, I mean, we're not going to kick you out if you say, well, I missed a day, but it just, it just shows how, uh, how much we believe in the power of prayer that,
16:28: I mean, if, if we're going, that would be the, the biggest mistake would be, we would be foolish to leave
16:34: God out of something like this. Um, and I know that there are several other systems that are, are out there, um, that they do exactly that.
16:44: And I think that could be one of the biggest mistakes you could make is try to take God out of this, out of this picture because he, he is the answer.
16:53: He is the answer right there. Praise God. And, uh, what one word you have used, which is a common word that is used by, um, any counselor, or should
17:06: I say many counselors, uh, and pastors and, uh, those involved in any kind of rehabilitation or therapy, the, the term addiction.
17:18: Now I am, as most people who listen regularly to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, I am someone who has been rescued from drunkenness, habitual, unrepentant, serious drunkenness after, after 18 years of sobriety, after coming to Christ, because I was a very serious drunkard before coming to Christ.
17:42: And when I came to Christ, uh, repenting of drunkenness was one of the initial things that I did.
17:49: Uh, and then after 18 years of sobriety, I tragically fell back into this serious sin, which is not only, uh, physically deadly and dangerous, but spiritually as well, as we are warned by the
18:02: Apostle Paul, among other things, that drunkards shall not enter the kingdom of heaven, of course, until they are washed and sanctified by the
18:12: Holy Spirit and repent of this. But, um, the word addiction, one of the things that, uh, if I use it personally as a way to describe my former life, uh, and that subject in general,
18:27: I, I typically will have to be careful not to lead people to the wrong conclusion that very often in the realm of, of addictive therapy, people are being told, this is a disease, it's a sickness, don't blame yourself for this.
18:49: Uh, you know, you have to take responsibility and you have to, uh, come to the point where you leave this addiction behind and so on and break yourself from it with the help of whatever group that person or group is promoting.
19:04: But the, the, the therapeutic language of addiction bothers me to a great extent, unless it has some kind of explanation behind it, because I believe that we must take responsibility for these activities and thoughts and so on that are indeed sin.
19:24: Would you agree with that? Absolutely. Absolutely. I, you know, you think about circumstance, right?
19:31: And the, could I control the things that happen to me with, with my abuse or, or my, uh, exposure to pornography?
19:40: Absolutely not. You know, that, that, that happened. Uh, I didn't want that to happen, obviously, but it did.
19:47: And now, you know, as, as I'm an adult now, I could look back at that and be very blaming, right?
19:54: Like, well, that's, that's the reason why I struggle with this or, uh, growing up in a household without a father, you know,
20:02: I could blame him saying that's the reason why, but at a certain point, we're all making our own decisions.
20:11: We're all choosing to sin or not to sin. We're all choosing, you know, what to click on, on our computers or, or what we're scrolling on our phones.
20:23: It's our individual choice. And as much as your circumstance might make you more prone to the addiction, the,
20:32: I mean, it really falls on you because you're the one who's deciding to live a or not do the things that you are.
20:41: Yes. People very often would, whatever sin it may be, they cultivate that and nurture that sin until it grows into something much more evil and much worse.
20:52: And so, uh, in fact, um, I don't know if you have seen the interview that, uh, a notorious serial killer,
21:02: Ted Bundy gave, uh, with, uh, Dr. Dobson, James Dobson, where he was tracing, uh, how, uh, he believes he eventually became a serial killer.
21:14: It started with the same, uh, what today would be considered, uh, cub scout level of, uh, of evil, just looking at dirty magazines.
21:27: And, uh, of course we who are Christian know that there is really no such thing as a cub scout level of evil, because that without the grace and mercy and blood of Christ would send someone to hell.
21:39: Just that kind of a simple thing that's simple and compared to other things going on in our society.
21:45: But he cultivated this and, and when he became bored of the pornography he was viewing, it had to get much more bizarre for him to be stimulated by it and satisfied by it until he reached the point where it was a bondage
22:04: SNM, uh, type of material. And then just going worse and worse. So I believe it reached the level of snuff flicks where people are either truly, or at least being depicted as being murdered in these pornographic films and so on.
22:19: Um, this, uh, is something that is a snowball effect, isn't it?
22:26: Absolutely. And it's interesting that you bring up Ted Bundy because I use his, uh, one of his quotes from that same interview that you brought up to illustrate a point.
22:37: And, um, I can read it if you'd like. Oh yeah, definitely. All right. And this was not planned folks.
22:43: I know. Um, the quote is this, he says, I've lived in prison for a long time now and I've met a lot of men who are motivated to commit violence without exception.
22:56: Every one of them was deeply involved in pornography, deeply consumed by the, by the addiction.
23:04: And that's Ted Bundy talking, talking about exactly what you just mentioned of how, how he, how could someone do all of these heinous acts that he did?
23:14: And it started with, you know, Cub Scout level of pornography, you know, stuff that, uh, probably very similar things that I was introduced to that I was exposed to when
23:26: I was 10 years old and, and you know, millions and millions of kids are being introduced to every single day.
23:33: Now, uh, the, the snowball effect that you mentioned is, uh, really your brain chasing the dopamine.
23:43: Um, the dopamine is, uh, connected to the pleasure centers in your brain. It's when, you know, when you eat pizza, it's, you have dopamine released in your brain saying,
23:51: Oh, that was good. Let's do that again. Now the problem with dopamine is that it craves novelty.
23:57: And what I mean by that is that it's always seeking something new. There's a reason why we don't eat pizza for every single meal of the day for an entire week, because we get old.
24:08: Speak for yourself. I'm only kidding. Um, uh, but I mean, you understand the, the idea there, right?
24:18: Is it gets old after a while. And the same thing is true with something like pornography that, you know, a soft core type film doesn't get you aroused anymore.
24:28: It doesn't excite you anymore. And so you need to seek something more hardcore. And now nowadays with the, the amount of filth that's on the internet, the, the types of pornography that are being portrayed is just, it's, it's crazy.
24:44: It's crazy how violent, uh, the pornography has become.
24:49: And what's even crazier, Chris, is that this violent type of pornography is what most kids nowadays are being exposed to first.
25:01: They're seeing this, this crazy, uh, dehumanizing, very violent type of pornography.
25:08: And that does, uh, it's, it's trauma. It's traumatizing to a young person's brain.
25:15: And it just, it sets them on the path towards addiction much sooner and much easier than it was for myself.
25:25: And definitely for you, we are going to go to a break right now. And before I go to the break,
25:31: I'm going to read a question from a listener in Slovenia, Joe and Slovenia, and I'll have you answer the question when we return.
25:39: Uh, he says, dear brothers, Chris here in Europe, as you may know, soft porn is virtually everywhere displayed in public advertising, entertainment, and other media.
25:52: Most young boys and teenagers are exposed to hardcore porn on their cell phones or those of their peers daily.
26:05: How should the church address this reality and what forums and ways should believers be speaking to the church and society about pornography that is this pervasive may our
26:17: God provide for all your needs in the riches of the glory of Jesus Christ? Well, I'll have you mull that over and I'll repeat it of course, uh, when we return from the break, but if anybody else would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
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26:39: USA. And of course you may remain anonymous if your personal involves, if your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away.
26:48: We'll be right back with Chris croats and overcoming the bondage of addiction to pornography right after these messages from our sponsors.
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34:53: We are now back with our discussion on Preventing and Breaking the Chains of Pornography Addiction with our guest
34:59: Chris Croats, co -founder with Jack Dodgen of Overcome, which is a ministry helping those who are currently battling this sin that's overcome.
35:20: And Chris Croats is also a volunteer photographer for many events that Iron Trump and Zion Radio puts on in this area.
35:30: And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Chris involving the issue of pornography, our email address is chrisaronson at gmail .com.
35:39: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the
35:46: USA. And you may remain anonymous if this question involves a personal and private matter.
35:52: And not only is this the first time Chris Croats has been a guest on Iron Trump and Zion, but this is the first time that we have addressed this specific issue for two hours on the show.
36:04: Before the break, as you know, Chris, our listener in Slovenia, Joe, says,
36:09: Dear Brothers Chris, here in Europe, as you may know, soft porn is virtually everywhere displayed in public advertising, entertainment, and other media.
36:19: Most young boys and teenagers are exposed to hard porn on their cell phones or those of their peers daily.
36:26: How should the church address this reality? In what forms and ways should believers be speaking to the church and society about pornography that is this pervasive?
36:36: And first of all, is there a difference between what he is saying is going on in Europe than here in the
36:41: United States? I think it might be a little different. I just had a friend actually that deals with pornography go over to,
36:54: I can't remember what European country, but it was a big problem over there.
37:01: Human trafficking is huge over there, which,
37:06: I mean, I've never been to Slovenia, but many of these European countries we're seeing, this is becoming a major problem.
37:14: And what he described, his words were, some of these brothels that you can go into are much like our grocery stores that we have here.
37:23: It is very commonplace. It is so accepted over there and we aren't to that point over here yet.
37:32: And I say yet because we very easily could be there in a matter of a decade or two.
37:40: But because of that, and that's their foundation, then the pornography addiction is going to be just that much more entrenched in society.
37:53: Over here, it's normal, right? Guys, I was in the military for a large portion of my life and it's a joke.
38:05: It's joked about, but over there it is very much a way of life. And because of that, that's why we see the human trafficking problem over there.
38:15: That's why we're starting to rise in human trafficking over here, because like we were talking about before, it's a snowball effect.
38:24: After a while, viewing images or video on a screen isn't enough and you need to start acting out the fantasies that you're having with an actual person.
38:34: And that is a terrible place to be. But what's the answer then?
38:42: And I think the listener said, he asked, how should the church respond to this?
38:50: And before I answer that, let me just, with a few stats, show the seriousness of this addiction and how it's in the church.
39:02: Because I've talked to several ministers who say, I don't think we have that problem here.
39:09: And I shake my head because the nature of the sin and how people keep it so secret, you might never know if someone is struggling or not.
39:22: Right. Because this is a sin. There was not so long ago, a decade or two ago, that in order for somebody to be involved in this, they'd have to actually get in their car and drive to an adult theater, perhaps go to an adult book slash video store and rent these things and perhaps put on a disguise or something.
39:47: And now, somebody right there in their computer, while they are studying the
39:54: Bible online, they can just with one click, the privacy of their darkened basement or wherever they have their computer, they were all of a sudden watching pornography.
40:04: And in fact, I had a humorous thing that just popped into my head. I have a dear friend who's a minister out on Long Island, New York.
40:12: And one day he took me to his favorite Japanese restaurant and he pulls up to the place and parks his car.
40:20: And I said to him, brother, do you always park your car here when you go to the
40:27: Japanese restaurant? He goes, yeah, why? Well, do you realize that you're parked right in front of a strip club?
40:32: Because there were no signs, there were no signs that would lend you to automatically know that. And the strip club was right next to the
40:40: Japanese restaurant. And I happen to know it was a strip club because unfortunately, before I was a Christian, I was a teenager and a young man in my 20s,
40:48: I had occasion to visit there. But he was mortified because I said, you know, people driving by, they see your car, which is a very noticeable beat up car.
41:00: You could just tell by the paint peeling off of it and certain designs on the car that that was his car.
41:08: So I said, never park here again, brother. Yeah, yeah. I'm not even sure he went to the restaurant again after that. But this is a long way of saying it was something that took a lot more effort.
41:17: Yeah, absolutely. And today, like you said, it's anybody can do it.
41:22: We're carrying around devices in our pockets that can access pornography and nobody has to know.
41:28: So a few just a few stats here. Sixty four percent, a study taken back in 2015.
41:38: So this is still fairly recent. 2015. Sixty four percent of Christian men view pornography at least once a month.
41:48: And if you're viewing if you know it's wrong and yet you can't stop doing the behavior and you're frequenting these sites at least once a month,
41:57: I would say that constitutes an addiction. Yeah. Now, you know, that's that's you know, it's different for every person, but that's that's a problem.
42:07: Right. Another stat we were just talking about this one, the same study found that 51 percent of ministers paid by a church found that 51 percent of these ministers were said that pornography was a temptation for them.
42:29: And I I told you, I have a I have a group, an accountability group that is just preachers and because, you know, the the solitary nature of our job, we are alone many times and with almost zero accountability with what we're doing with our time and what websites we're frequenting.
42:49: One in five. So 20 percent, one one in five cell phone searches are for pornography.
42:58: When you're talking about a a browsing app, one in five. You know, what amazes me about that is that this may sound comical to some people, but the screen is so tiny and you're wondering that that's a real addiction when somebody is compelled to even view that on this little tiny screen and somehow get some pleasure out of it's just insane.
43:22: That just shows you the length that people will go to to get their fix or to feed their addiction.
43:27: Um, 93 percent of boys and 62 percent of girls are exposed to pornography before the age of 18.
43:36: Now, I mean, I think that's pretty commonplace today. People know, all right, by the time you're out of the house, by the time you're 18 years old, yeah, you're gonna you're gonna have seen it.
43:47: In what way does that mean exposed? Like, for instance, are they seeing their father or their older siblings watching this or what do they mean by exposed?
43:57: I think the criteria would include all of that. Either, you know, seeing someone viewing it, finding it, you know, in the in the trash can, being shown it in the in the the playground at school.
44:10: And even even movies that are obviously intended to include children in the audience are very often having at least what might what might be considered soft core porn in them.
44:25: Yeah, anymore. Yeah, that's very much the norm today. And I think that the problem,
44:32: Chris, is not so much that they're exposed, but that same study found that 71 percent of teens hide what they do online from their parents.
44:44: Again, not shocking information. You know, kids have been hiding things from their parents since the dawn of time, really.
44:52: But when you think about this problem and the fact that these young kids are viewing increasingly violent pornography and then hiding it from their parents, that's the blueprint for addiction right there is that they're being they're they're learning this habit of I did something shameful.
45:16: Now I must hide it from everyone. And so going going back to the question now, that's a really long way to answer this question.
45:24: What can the church do? Primarily talk about it. If if someone if a study came out and said that 64 percent of Christians struggled with alcohol, do you think people would have a problem with that?
45:41: Oh, absolutely. There we'd we'd be seeing seminars, we'd be seeing books come out, we'd be flooded with the amount of information and help available because that is a problem.
45:55: If 64 percent of men in the church, a study found that 64 percent of men in the church abused physically abused their wives.
46:05: Do you think the church would have a problem with that? Absolutely. Absolutely would. But for some reason, for some reason,
46:12: I think it's because it's the secretive nature of the sin. We can hear these stats and it just you know, it just falls right off of our back.
46:20: It's no big deal. Now, just out of curiosity, I remember hearing and in fact, it was on this program.
46:27: I was interviewing someone who was talking about this is a minister who was overseas somewhere.
46:34: I believe he was speaking at a conference or something. And when he was at the airport, he saw some pornographic magazines on a rack in the airport stationary store or convenience store.
46:51: And he was tempted to purchase some of this because he was trying to convince himself in his mind that this would spice up his love life with his wife.
47:03: And I was wondering if sometimes from what you have learned when ministers are involved in this, are they using excuses like this that to make it more harmless or make it appear in their own minds to be more harmless?
47:21: Because hey, after all, having intercourse with your spouse is something that is required in Scripture.
47:30: That's a command. We're not supposed to defraud our spouses of that. And he might be tricking himself into thinking this is actually something that would be noble and God honoring to do to be more pleasurable for my spouse.
47:45: And then he realized, since he had an accountability partner, the accountability partner had nothing to do with the specific sin of pornography.
47:54: He just had an accountability partner who they made a pledge to let each other know whenever they were being tempted or participating in sinful activity.
48:06: And he knew that he would have to lie to his brother and friend in Christ, to his accountability partner, in order to conduct this purchase.
48:16: So he didn't. But Mike, that was a long way of asking you, is that one of the excuses that at least starts the ball rolling for especially ministers or seasoned
48:27: Christians, people who have been in the faith many years? And the other thing that I could imagine would be people saying,
48:34: I've got to see what these other people are participating in, in order for me to speak with an education and knowledge.
48:45: I was just wondering if those are two of these. If you're a preacher out there and you need some education or knowledge of what the sin is, please contact me.
48:53: Don't go to the adult bookstore in order to get educated on this sin.
49:00: But to your question, I've seen a myriad of excuses and trying to rationalize this from all people, not just ministers.
49:15: As human beings, we're very good at rationalizing things, of saying,
49:21: I know God said this, but let's try to sneak it in.
49:27: Let's try to bend the rules just enough so I can have my way. We're very good at that.
49:33: And so I've heard all sorts of excuses, all sorts of rationalizations in order to do the thing.
49:39: This is going to spice up our marriage. I'm not really addicted to this.
49:45: I can quit whenever I want. And they're all lies. Because if you think about that, okay, you're going to try to spice up your marriage by bringing someone else into your marriage bed.
49:58: How does that make sense? But what he's trying to do there is to make it acceptable to his wife, and so then it thereby gives him permission to continue doing these things that he knows is wrong.
50:11: Like, I'm just doing you a favor, okay? But the church, when you start talking about it, this has been the silent problem in so many churches, and I truly believe that so many men of God are missing their purpose because they cannot get over this one hurdle.
50:34: And if they could, if they could realize that there is hope out there, that I think our churches would be so much better off in forms of leadership, in forms of having a true vision for the future, rather than just being caught up in this cycle of sin.
50:56: And so, you know, I don't know Slovenia, right? That's the place, Slovenia?
51:01: Yes, Slovenia, which is the birthplace of our first lady, Donald Trump's wife. Okay. I learned something new.
51:11: Slovenia. Slovenia. Never been there. Don't know much about it.
51:16: I'm a preacher, you know. I know the Bible. Geography, I didn't have to pass geography in order to get my job.
51:27: Who are you, Paul Simon? He sang that song, don't know much about history, don't know much biology.
51:33: I think it gets around to geography at some point. But anyway. Well, that's me. That's definitely me. But regardless of where you are, here in the
51:41: States, overseas, I think the first step has to be, let's start talking about it. Let's start recognizing this as a problem, right?
51:49: The first step in solving a problem is recognizing that you have one, right? And so we need to start talking about it.
51:54: And secondly, we need to equip ourselves to offer hope. Because so many men, the reason why the church isn't talking about it is because so many men are caught up in it,
52:05: I believe, that they don't know where to start. And so you're really in one of two camps. Either you don't struggle with it, and so you think everyone else is just like you, and this isn't a problem.
52:15: Or you do struggle with it, and you are definitely not bringing it up. Because then you're going to have to confess.
52:23: You're going to have to, if you're married, you're going to have to go through that whole process that you've probably been through before.
52:28: And you've just convinced yourself that lying about this is the only way that it can happen. That life can continue.
52:36: And it's a lie. It's a lie. There is hope out there. And if churches were more equipped to deal with the problem and not just the typical, well, just read your
52:45: Bible more and pray about it. And if you had a stronger faith, then you wouldn't struggle with this.
52:54: And that prescription for dealing with this problem has been around for a long time, and it's obviously not working.
53:04: We have to go to our midway break, which is a longer break than normal, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
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53:25: So please be patient with us as we have this 12 -minute break. Take the time not only to obviously write down information that our advertisers provide, because we want you to patronize those who keep
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54:01: God willing we'll be right back with Chris Croats after these messages from our sponsors.
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01:05:50: Before I return to our discussion on preventing and breaking the chains of pornography addiction with our guest today,
01:06:00: Chris Crotz, who is co -founder with Jack Dodgen of Overcome, we have just a couple of announcements to make.
01:06:08: First of all, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is once again having the
01:06:14: Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology next month, coming up very quickly. It's going to be held at two locations, neither of which is
01:06:22: Philadelphia. They call it the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology out of love, admiration, and respect to the late
01:06:30: Dr. James Montgomery Boyce and the conference that he held at the
01:06:35: Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia for many years. And he is now in heaven for eternity with Christ.
01:06:42: And they have continued the theme and the name, and of course there are different specific themes every year.
01:06:50: This year the theme is the spirit of the age and the age of the spirit. From the 13th through the 15th, the conference will be held at the
01:07:00: First Christian Reformed Church of Byron Center, Michigan. And from the 27th through the 29th, the conference will be held at Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania.
01:07:11: That's the one I intend to attend. I intend to attend that conference.
01:07:17: And the speakers include Daniel Aiken, Richard Gaffin, Daniel Hyde, a man who
01:07:23: I consider to be the most powerful preacher on the planet Earth alive today, Conrad M. Bayway, the pastor of Caboata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, who's been my friend since 1995.
01:07:34: Richard Phillips, another friend of mine who's the pastor of Second Presbyterian Church in Greenville, South Carolina. Jonathan Master, David Murray, who have both been on this program, and Scott Oliphant, who
01:07:46: I have not yet interviewed but hope to soon. He is on the faculty of Westminster Theological Seminary.
01:07:51: If you'd like to register for either location or both locations of this event, go to alliancenet .org,
01:07:58: alliancenet .org, click on events, and then click on the
01:08:03: Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology. Please tell the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals that you heard about these events from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, and also mark your calendars for May 5th from 10 a .m.
01:08:17: to 2 .30 p .m. My guest today, Chris Croats, will be leading an event called
01:08:23: Equipped to Conquer in regard to the same topic we are addressing today, and what is your church doing about pornography and the addiction that many professing
01:08:37: Christians and even ministers are battling in regard to this sin. That's going to be held at the
01:08:43: Carlisle Church of Christ on 971 Walnut Bottom Road in Carlisle, and for more information you can call 717 -249 -3267, 717 -249 -3267, or go to carlislecofc .org,
01:09:00: carlislecofc .org, and the other website
01:09:07: I'm sure that will be promoting this is wheniamweek .org, wheniamweek .org.
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01:11:42: Well, now we are back with our guest Chris Crotz, co -founder with Jack Dodgen of Overcome, and we are addressing preventing and breaking the chains of pornography addiction.
01:11:54: If you'd like to join us on the air, the question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:12:01: Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable, if the question involves a personal and private matter.
01:12:11: And Chris, there are obviously, just like any sin, whether it be drug and alcohol abuse, whether it be gluttony, or whatever the case may be, there are typically things that a person would do to further equip themselves not to either fall into those sins to begin with, but to make sure that they don't return to those sins.
01:12:44: And obviously nothing is foolproof, but what would you say are those very things when it comes to somebody with a specific sin, somebody who has been viewing pornography and this has become something that's consuming their lives and so on?
01:13:04: Well, to, let me back up a little bit because you said a couple things in there that are absolutely correct, and no matter what struggle you have, we all have our own struggles, whether it be pornography, you mentioned gluttony, is it substance abuse, is it greed, is it anger?
01:13:26: We all have these things, and what I found in my years of helping people with pornography is that the core issues that institute a pornography addiction actually are the core issues that really plague us all.
01:13:46: And there's three of them that I mentioned that we have all been affected by to some degree, and those are abandonment, abuse, and shame.
01:13:57: Abandonment, abuse, and shame. Those are the three core issues that kind of can, you know, fester in, they manifest themselves very differently depending on the person, depending on their circumstances, and for so many people nowadays, it's very much skewed or weighted towards this pornography addiction that we're dealing with in the church today.
01:14:22: But if you think about your life, and I don't need examples, Chris, but we've all struggled with abandonment, abuse, or shame.
01:14:32: Abandonment can be anything from being abandoned by a parent, a mentor, a spouse, a sibling, a teacher, whatever, and that hurts.
01:14:46: It hurts when you feel those feelings of abandonment, and a lot of times there's nothing that you can do about it.
01:14:54: And so for the porn addict, the way that they cope is they seek out pornography because it makes them feel normal, makes them feel good, at least for a moment.
01:15:07: You think about abuse, and you know, people's abuse, it doesn't have to be as terrible as mine was, but a parent's hand, they have the capability of abusing their children without even knowing it.
01:15:24: You think about verbal abuse or emotional abuse, and hopefully not, but we know it happens quite a lot.
01:15:32: Sexual abuse within the family can do a tremendous amount of damage and pain.
01:15:41: And so the way that the porn addict copes with all of that is they seek out pornography, and of course shame.
01:15:47: Shame is really wrapped up in this whole thing because of the way that the church views porn, and rightfully so, as a sin, because God views it as a sin.
01:15:59: There's a lot of shame wrapped up in that, of what will people think? Shame is this idea of if people knew the real me, if they knew what
01:16:09: I was doing behind closed doors, then they wouldn't really love me. It's this, you kind of dehumanize yourself, you devalue yourself, and that's what shame really is.
01:16:21: And you think about the trajectory, and this is why I believe that this is such a huge problem in the churches today, much bigger than what
01:16:31: I might even realize. This is, I believe, Satan's number one tool for making sure the gospel isn't spread, because of the impact that just five minutes, or even less, of being exposed to pornography.
01:16:49: You think about the trajectory of shame over someone's lifetime, right? It's a lifetime of shame that that can cause.
01:16:58: And so this has got to be Satan's, one of Satan's biggest tools for derailing people from their
01:17:05: God -given potential, and what God has planned for them.
01:17:11: But you think about, okay, now that we know that, we have abandonment, abuse, and shame, the problem is that most people view pornography addiction, or sex addiction, as it's all about the sex, it's all about the porn, when it's really not that way.
01:17:28: Like I said, people have these core issues, and this is just manifesting itself this way in someone's life.
01:17:37: So we find, and researchers have found this very recently, within the last 10, 15 years, that pornography addiction really is more of an intimacy disorder.
01:17:49: It's an intimacy disorder because you don't want people to see the real you. You're afraid of that.
01:17:55: You go to great lengths to make sure that nobody knows, whether it be deleting the internet history, or, you know, making sure, you know, no one is around, and you go through all these things to make sure nobody knows.
01:18:11: And yet that's how the sin thrives, and so we get stuck in this intimacy disorder of not wanting people to see who we really are.
01:18:18: So then the answer to an intimacy disorder is then allowing people to see who you really are, and knowing that they're going to love you in return, and support you, and be there for you, and encourage you through this.
01:18:34: And the more you allow people to see who you are, the easier it gets. And that's really, that's the entire premise of what we do in our accountability groups.
01:18:45: You mean the easier it gets to overcome and repent of? Absolutely. Now going back to something
01:18:50: I said earlier, how do you respond to the person? Let's say the wife catches the husband watching porn.
01:18:58: She starts yelling at him, and he says, hon, come on, I have an intimacy disorder.
01:19:04: I mean, this is a sickness. I mean, you got to cut me some slack, because this is no different than diabetes.
01:19:11: Why don't you tell me about that? How do you respond to that? Chris, I've never heard that before. Well, I've heard.
01:19:18: I've heard in the media very often, and at AA meetings, which I used to have to go to when
01:19:24: I was in a hospital waiting to be given entrance into the
01:19:29: Christian Rehabilitation Ministry that I told you about. I had to, while in this hospital, in their drug and alcohol abuse wing,
01:19:37: I had to go at least, I think, three times a day to AA meetings. Wow.
01:19:43: And there was a lot of this psychobabble going on where people are being told that it is just like diabetes or cancer or whatever.
01:19:52: This is a disease. And interestingly enough, they would have the inmates running the asylum, because the people running the
01:20:00: AA meetings were the repeat offenders that were in and out of the rehabilitation wing who knew the system enough to run the meeting.
01:20:09: So it's crazy that these people who are repeat offenders are running things. But anyway, that seems to be common in recovery vocabulary.
01:20:19: The lingo of recovery is that it is just like a disease of any kind. So how do you respond to that?
01:20:25: The people who are passing the buck of responsibility? I wouldn't necessarily agree with that,
01:20:31: Chris, of this, it's beyond my control type thing.
01:20:37: And I know you think about the 12 steps in recovery programs and stuff like that.
01:20:46: And there's a reason why in our system, we choose not to use those.
01:20:52: However, we cover much of the same ground as those. One of the problems that I kind of, one of the things that I have a problem with, with the 12 step program is exactly what you're mentioning.
01:21:06: It kind of has this shift of blame to it of, well, this is just who
01:21:12: I am. Whereas to get over an intimacy disorder, you do need to recognize that and have people around you.
01:21:19: But that doesn't excuse the behavior, right? You say, well, I have an intimacy disorder.
01:21:25: And so I'm acting out in this way. In an accountability group setting, it would be, yeah, we understand because we've all been there, but that doesn't excuse the behavior.
01:21:39: We have an understanding in all of our groups that if someone is married and they go so far as actually looking at pornography and acting out to it, that they need to talk to their wives because those are, you have vows that you made on your wedding day that you just broke.
01:22:04: And so as much as it is good for you to confess this sin to us here in group, you also need to confess that to your wife.
01:22:15: And that's all part of the process, right? The idea of building intimacy within a group, and a lot of times it's with people that you don't really know, is that the hope is that you can build this and allow people to see who you are and then that bleeds over into your everyday life.
01:22:36: And going back to the disorder aspect, when it comes to alcohol, my own personal sin that God delivered me from in regard to addiction to it, or habitual unrepentant sin involving that, there are biochemical things that develop in a person's life when they consume alcohol, which begins to make your body crave it physically.
01:23:05: And you even go through the DTs, you shake if you don't have it, and you don't feel better until you have some alcohol back in your system.
01:23:13: Although that could be said to be a physical addiction, biochemical addiction, it's something that I and all drunkards cater to and cultivate and develop by giving in to the temptation.
01:23:31: And it becomes worse and worse and worse until you're finally, you could actually lose your life, it could be so bad, by going through withdrawal.
01:23:40: And I'm assuming that you would believe that this disorder aspect of the way you're viewing pornography is that it is something that people are cultivating and nurturing by constantly giving into the sin.
01:23:54: It's not something that I can say, hey I was born a porn addict, when in reality I guess we could all say that we were born porn addicts because we're born with these sinful proclivities that just manifest in different ways.
01:24:07: But if you could tell us about that in regard to this clinical way of describing it as being a disorder.
01:24:19: Yeah, well it is, let me just say, there are some differences between substance abuse and pornography addiction.
01:24:32: You mentioned there is a chemical reaction that's going on in your body to make you want alcohol or drugs.
01:24:46: We see several of these other substances that people can get addicted to and much of it is the same way.
01:24:53: Your body is starting to crave this. The problem with pornography addiction is that the drug that we're craving, our brains produce it.
01:25:02: That's dopamine along with a cocktail of many other drugs that our brains make.
01:25:09: And so you have this very interesting dilemma that a porn addict is in, and that is for an alcoholic, they have to go get the alcohol, or it has to be given to them.
01:25:25: Some effort has to be made. For the drug addict, if they decided to, they could never go meet their drug dealer again.
01:25:38: And that could potentially cure them of their addiction. The problem with the porn addict is that, where do you go to run away from your mind?
01:25:49: Because when you understand what these drugs are doing to you, and viewing pornography along with these drugs being released in our brain, makes it so it is incredibly difficult to forget these images and these videos and these names of actors and actresses.
01:26:11: They're seared onto our consciousness. And so what you have is you have a drug addict living inside of a drug factory.
01:26:20: Wow, that's a fascinating way of putting it. I don't know if I've ever heard it put that way, but that's profound.
01:26:29: Tell me about it. It stinks, because I wish, and I've prayed, much like Paul prayed to God to take away that thorn in his side, to take away these images that haunt me, that I can never get rid of as much as I try.
01:26:52: Basically what happens in your brain is, when you're viewing pornography, you have norepinephrine released in your brain, which is adrenaline, because it's exciting, right?
01:27:01: You're being excited by what you're seeing. It's dangerous. You know it's wrong. And so you have this adrenaline rush going on.
01:27:09: Well, the problem with that is that they found that when you experience something with adrenaline coursing through your body, you tend to remember that better.
01:27:20: And that's horrible for a porn addict, because like I said, you can't forget this stuff.
01:27:28: It's with you. You can't run away from your own mind, your own memory.
01:27:34: And that just fuels the addiction even more. We're going to go to a break right now, our final break.
01:27:45: It's going to be briefer than the last one. But one question I have from an anonymous listener in Pennsylvania is, can you tell us about the phenomenon of female porn addiction, and how is it different than male addiction?
01:27:59: And you could go to that when we return from our final break. Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back with Chris Crotz and more of our discussion on breaking the chains of addiction to pornography right after these messages from our sponsors.
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01:33:26: Now we're back to the final 25 minutes or so with our guest today, Chris Crotz. We have been discussing preventing and breaking the chains of pornography addiction.
01:33:36: And if you'd like to join us, do so now or forever hold your peace, because we're running out of time. If you have a question, send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:33:44: chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
01:33:55: And before the break, Chris, as you know, we had an anonymous listener in Pennsylvania who wanted to know more about the phenomenon of female addiction to porn, which seems like it's a mind -blowing thing, because for a very long time, pornography addiction or the sin of viewing pornography has been viewed almost exclusively as a male sin.
01:34:22: And there may have been some truth to that, perhaps even a lot of truth to that, but the times are changing, as they say.
01:34:29: If you could tell us something about this. Yeah, I think one of the reasons why we're seeing a big shift in this is the over -sexualization of our nation that we're under right now is, you know,
01:34:45: I heard about this when I was a kid of, like, you know, look what these girls are wearing these days, and can you believe the filth that's on TV?
01:34:53: And now that I'm an adult, I look back at that and say, oh, that was nothing. Look at what we have nowadays. And it's just this mindset that our culture is in.
01:35:03: But as far as the addiction goes, really, much of it is the same. As far as the intimacy disorder, all of these things, if there is one thing that was different,
01:35:17: Chris, it would have to be that the way that God made women, and I'm not saying all women are this way, but generally speaking, women crave relationship.
01:35:30: They go after the relationship. That's what they want. You ask any woman, you know, what do they want out of their marriage?
01:35:37: They want the relationship part of it the most. You know, having someone to talk to, to spend the days with, to experience life through.
01:35:46: Whereas, you know, you talk to a guy on his wedding day, and I can tell you one thing that he's looking forward to, and it has nothing to do with any of that.
01:35:56: But I think if one thing is different about the addiction for women, it has to do with the relationship part, is they're seeing the relationship, and it can come in many different forms, either viewing pornography, reading romance novels.
01:36:15: There is a new wave of romance novels that are really just pornography in literary form, things like Fifty Shades of Grey, and there seems like there's a new, it's almost, it's praised in Hollywood and in pop culture of, you know, wow, look at this book and how amazing it is, but really what it is is pornography.
01:36:37: It's somehow in a more acceptable form of pornography, but that's what it is.
01:36:43: But included in there is how these women get hooked by it, is because they play on the relationship aspect of it, of, you know, look at all these dangerous things that these two are doing, but it's in, you know, viewing through the lens of relationship.
01:37:00: And again, I'll talk about another drug that our brains produce, and that is oxytocin.
01:37:07: Now, this affects male addicts as well, but I would, I would think that it would affect female addicts just that much more, because what oxytocin is, is it's the love drug.
01:37:19: It's what our brains release when we feel human connectedness, and for some reason, when we view pornography, our brains release that, and so it's this really interesting phenomenon where what is happening is, is you can start falling in love with porn, because you're feeling that human connectedness through it, and because of that, you start falling in love with these videos, and you have this deep level of romantic intimacy that, that's what sex is, is the deepest form of intimacy that you can go to with a person, and when you get a taste of that, it can be very addicting, especially if you don't, if you aren't experiencing that level of connectedness in other areas of your life, then you're going to crave it that much more.
01:38:17: So you're saying that the, the romantic aspect of this is what's drawing in women in greater numbers, is that what you mean?
01:38:23: I think so. I, and you know, I hate to, you know, paint things with such a broad stroke, because people are different, and everyone's background is different.
01:38:35: They're, you know, it depends on, you know, what they're struggling with, with abandonment, abuse, and shame, but, but if I had to put my finger on it,
01:38:44: I think it would have to be that, is the, the human connectedness, the relationship part of it, the romance, is what a lot of women want, and they can have all of that by viewing videos online, or reading these romance novels.
01:39:00: And I have heard, and again, we're going to like clinical terminology, and all that kind of thing, but I have heard that women are less visual when it comes to sexual things, and of course, not every person is the same, not every woman is the same, but I've found it interesting, and I don't know if you can document this or not,
01:39:21: I'm sure that Playgirl magazine could document it, but I heard somewhere that the vast majority of those subscribing to Playgirl, I don't even know if it exists anymore, but they were homosexual men, not women buying this magazine.
01:39:39: Oh, interesting, I never heard that. Okay, because that, that goes along with the whole visual aspect of...
01:39:45: That would make sense, that would make sense as to why then they're, the people that are actually buying the magazine wasn't women, it would, it would be homosexual men who are very stimulated visually, instead of relationally, like we just talked about.
01:40:01: Now, one of the things that kind of slipped away from us, that I asked you about before the break, was what steps do you recommend?
01:40:09: I know that each person may be different, like for instance, going back to my personal addiction that has been thankfully broken by the mercy and grace of God in regard to drunkenness, there are all different kinds of drunks or former drunks.
01:40:30: Some people who are delivered from this, they might not ever even be able to walk into an
01:40:38: Applebee's again, because there's a bar in there. They might not ever be able to sit and enjoy a meal with other people who are enjoying a glass of wine.
01:40:50: You could go on and on and on. Thankfully, I have gone into Applebee's and many other restaurants that have bars, sometimes with a table right next to the bar.
01:41:02: And I don't even, for a second, start to salivate thinking about that booze over there. I could just look over there and say, look at the pretty colored bottles, and it doesn't go any further than that.
01:41:14: And I, and believe me, I know he who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. I know that I have to be careful about this and not view it as something
01:41:23: I can boast of and be 100 % confident about.
01:41:30: But when it comes to this particular sin that you're talking about, I'm assuming some people might not ever be able to go to the beach again, or might not even be able to pick up,
01:41:41: I don't, do they have Sears or JC Penney's catalogs anymore? I don't know. I have no idea.
01:41:47: But he is a lot younger than I am. That's been one in my house, and I don't think ever, actually.
01:41:54: But I mean, obviously, even online, when you, people could even look at women's lingerie.
01:42:00: Yeah, walking through the department store. Right, right. So tell us about that. What practical counsel do you have in regard to staying away from something that's going to send you on the slippery slope back into pornography use?
01:42:15: Well, that is one thing that we kind of cover and track, and it's, people are different, right?
01:42:25: I've dealt with people that all, the only thing they needed to do was get into group and tell their story.
01:42:32: And for some reason, that was enough for them. They just needed to get that off of their chest and they're able to move on.
01:42:40: And it's never a temptation for them again. And it's, it's incredible to me.
01:42:45: Now, again, you know, there's a level of honesty there. Are they, I mean, are they being honest with themselves and honest with us?
01:42:52: I don't know. All I know is what they tell me. But, but then I've also,
01:42:57: I also have guys in our groups that they know that this is a lifelong struggle, that it is never going to come to a time where I'm not going to be tempted by this.
01:43:10: So as far as, you know, practical steps, at least from my personal experience, there was a time in my life when
01:43:19: I was first getting started with this, where I couldn't go to the gym. The gym was too much temptation for me.
01:43:25: I could not go to the beach. It was too much temptation for me. And I've, I've then and since refused to have certain apps on my phone or to have certain types of phones, for some people they choose, all right,
01:43:40: I cannot have a smartphone anymore because the temptation is just too great. But what
01:43:45: I found personally, as the, the more I remove myself and the longer that I've gone in group and confessing sin and really being vigilant about where I'm going, where my eyes are wandering,
01:44:01: I can go to the gym now and be fine. Now that doesn't mean like you're saying, it doesn't mean
01:44:06: I can boast about that and strut around saying, look at me, I'm not affected by any of this because I know again, from my personal experience, as soon as I do that, that's when
01:44:16: I have a bad day. And so staying vigilant, knowing that I need to be careful of where my eyes are wandering, what situations
01:44:23: I'm putting myself in definitely help. But I mean, so much of this, it's so, you know, individual that it's, it's hard to say, well, you know, you know, this is how long you're going to be in this situation.
01:44:38: And, you know, once you move on from here, then this is what your life is going to look like. Because I've dealt with, uh, single guys, married guys, guys that are dealing with same sex attraction, uh, and not just, you know, the, the typical pornography addiction.
01:44:54: And it's, it's all different. It's saying it's the same on, on some levels, as far as, you know, what we need to do in group, what it's different as to how that person lives their everyday life, because people are different.
01:45:09: They're in different situations. They're in different countries and areas of our, our country and things are going to be different.
01:45:16: And so that is one of the beautiful things about group is that we were able to address individuals in a, in their circumstance and talk about what's going on and how we can help.
01:45:33: We have a listener, uh, in Clifton, New Jersey and Joey in Clifton says, dear
01:45:41: Chris, thanks for all you are trying to do to help Christians gain victory over the temptations they face.
01:45:48: I heard what you said about the peculiar challenge it has faced because of the nature of dopamine.
01:45:57: And I can't even pronounce this other word, Nora. Okay. I agree with what you said, but just want to share two comments for balance.
01:46:09: One is that God can use those same exact chemicals in response to him when we rightly see and know him.
01:46:19: And for those married also in response to one spouse and these in a more good and powerful way than to pornographic imagery.
01:46:28: So whether singled or married, the fact that an image was once there is by no means a defeat, it can be overcome second.
01:46:40: And more importantly, we must always remember that God's spirit is resident in the believer.
01:46:46: The spirit of God, my phone falling off the console here, the spirit of God in us can enable us to overcome such things that attack us.
01:46:58: This is why Paul can say in first Corinthians chapter six, verse 11, such were some of you in response to these sins that the world thinks are so addictive and enslaving.
01:47:10: This is not to say that there is no struggle, but we can walk in newness of life as Romans chapter six, verse four, keep pressing on brother.
01:47:19: Do you have any, there wasn't no real question there, but if you could comment on his comments, um,
01:47:25: I would have to agree that his first thing, his first comment about, um, how, you know, these, uh, these drugs that our brain produces, uh, can absolutely have a, a positive side to them.
01:47:39: I mean, God created our brains to function in a certain way and they have a purpose there.
01:47:45: And so, but what a lot of times has happened is that Satan, the world has hijacked that as a system to distract us or to, um, point us in the wrong direction.
01:48:00: But he's right in the sense that if you're using it for its intended purpose, it is a beautiful thing.
01:48:07: Sex is a beautiful thing seen in the right lens and used correctly.
01:48:13: I mean, God created it for a purpose and not just to, uh, produce children, but also for a husband and wife to enjoy each other.
01:48:23: And those drugs that our body produces, you think about the adrenaline, it should be exciting.
01:48:29: Uh, the, the oxytocin right of the human connectedness, you go to the deepest level intimacy with someone and you should feel connected to them.
01:48:37: You should have that relationship and the, the drugs that God put in our brains and have them produced only help with that.
01:48:45: The problem is that when we hijack those and use them, uh, to fulfill our own selfish needs of,
01:48:54: I want to feel good right now. And so I'm going to use pornography as a vehicle in order to get there.
01:49:00: Um, and I forgot his second part because I was babbling so much. He said, well, let me go back to what he said here.
01:49:09: Um, and in the meantime, I will repeat our email address. It is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
01:49:15: Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own and remember you can remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
01:49:27: Uh, if you're talking about the last part of, he said, he said, uh, uh,
01:49:33: Paul can say in first Corinthians chapter six, verse 11, some such were some of you in response to these sins that the world thinks are so addictive and enslaving.
01:49:44: This is not to say that there is no struggle, but we can walk in newness of life as in Romans chapter six, verse four.
01:49:50: Uh, I think I could be wrong. And Joey, if you want to clarify with another email,
01:49:56: I think what he may be saying is something that I am personally in agreement with Joey and Clifton, New Jersey.
01:50:03: One of the problems I have with a, a, and a, and recovery therapy is the idea that I have to forever identify myself as an addict.
01:50:16: Uh, like alcoholics will say, you must always say that you are an alcoholic. In fact, you, the whole thing with Alcoholics Anonymous, you could be sober for 80 years and get up with your
01:50:27: Walker and say, my name is Bill and I'm an alcoholic. Uh, I don't believe that we should do that.
01:50:34: It's, it's the same way in regard to all sins. If somebody committed the sin of adultery, either before or after they were a
01:50:42: Christian and they repented of that, uh, they, their, their marriage was restored, their membership in the church was restored, et cetera, et cetera.
01:50:49: I don't think that the person has to walk around and say, hi, I'm Bill and I'm an adulterer. You know? Uh, I think that's probably what
01:50:56: Joey meant by that is that, uh, there is hope in Christ who can certainly deliver us.
01:51:02: That doesn't mean that you will have a hundred percent freedom from temptation on this earth and so on.
01:51:08: I think this, a lot of this is, uh, also, uh, going on in opposition to what
01:51:15: Joey is saying in the realm of homosexuality, uh, you will have even Christians, uh, relegating people as being a part of a people group known as homosexuals, as if they wave the white flag and say, you're, you're always going to be a homosexual rather than referring to it as an activity that is damning and evil.
01:51:40: Uh, they're referring to it as a people group, almost as if you're Italian, you're black, you're
01:51:46: Asian, you're homosexual. And the most that a Christian can hope for is being a chaste homosexual.
01:51:54: And I, I reject that completely. I believe that there is deliverance through the blood of Christ.
01:52:00: Well, the scripture that he referenced, homosexuals were in that list. That's right. Some of you were.
01:52:05: Such were some of And, uh, I would have to agree with Joey, right? Joey was his name.
01:52:10: Yes. Joey from Clifton, New Jersey. My memory is terrible. Um, but, uh, absolutely.
01:52:16: Um, that I've seen, uh, through this ministry, uh, marriages restored people thinking, um, and I should include this before we end.
01:52:28: Uh, my wife is also involved in this ministry with me because what I've found through the years is that I might have a husband or more likely a wife coming to me saying my husband needs help and I might get him the help.
01:52:43: And then on the sidelines, you have this wife who has been completely destroyed by this revelation, this, you know, the sin that she had no idea about.
01:52:54: And some researchers even found that the symptoms of PTSD have been found in wives of porn addicts because it is so jarring and so, uh, shocking to their life that they now they have triggers as well.
01:53:10: Um, and so my wife is involved in this, uh, ministry with me. If you're a wife out there listening to this, please go onto the website and, um, you can find help on there for you.
01:53:22: If you have questions, uh, my email address is on there as well, that if you want to get in with my wife, please, uh, by all means do so.
01:53:29: And Joey in Clifton, New Jersey says, you got me right, Chris. So thank you,
01:53:35: Joey. And, uh, I guess we have time for one more. We have, uh,
01:53:42: Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who's asks, how does all this discussion of pornography when you meet in your groups, uh, be prevented from entering into the very sin that you're discussing?
01:53:54: You know, you could, you could actually, if you're sitting around talking about pornography and your addiction to it, that could lead to, uh, and in fact, one of the things that I dislike about AA meetings and NA meetings is the romanticizing of the abuse of the drug.
01:54:11: You will have contests, not that they would be officially called contests, but what seemed to be contests with people getting up and saying, well, you think you were addicted to alcohol and drugs.
01:54:20: Let me tell you my story. And there's an old, this, this, uh, titillating stories of things going on that might actually say to somebody,
01:54:28: Hey, you know, I need a drink right now. But anyway, I know, I know exactly what you're talking about. And, um, it's almost this, uh, one upmanship, right.
01:54:37: Of, uh, let me tell you, let me tell you a story about a time that I was drunk. Um, however, in group, this has never been an issue.
01:54:47: Um, typically because we kind of have an understanding, this isn't a formal rule, but it's an understanding of, okay, if you say you messed up this week, we don't need any more details beyond that of, all right, this is, uh, this is what happened.
01:55:04: Uh, this is how many times I messed up and we get the picture. Uh, as soon as you start going into details, you know,
01:55:10: I was looking at, you know, this actress and she had this color hair. We, we stay away from all of that.
01:55:17: Um, and as far as I know from the guys that I, uh, I counsel on these, uh, accountability meetings, um, hasn't been an issue.
01:55:27: And I think part of it is because it's kind of hard to, um, start fantasizing when you're actively in a group trying to prevent the action that, uh, that you you're wanting to fantasize about.
01:55:39: Typically groups, um, go in a fashion, either you are excited for someone because they were able to stay clean for a week, um, or you're broken alongside with them for having failed and trying to come up with new strategies or, or, you know, doing whatever you can to make sure that this doesn't happen again.
01:56:03: And it's, it's a process. And, uh, but I haven't found that that to be a problem or an issue.
01:56:10: I mean, don't you think that, uh, if somebody says, Hey, I failed again, don't you believe that you have to say to them, all right, sorry, but you got to get rid of your computer.
01:56:18: I mean, I mean, if somebody keeps saying, Hey, it's been six weeks, but I fell again, they got to really remove those things from their lives that keeps making them stumble.
01:56:28: Well, part of the problem, Chris, is we live in 2018 and, um, the old, you know, uh, well,
01:56:37: I'm just going to go destroy my computer. It isn't, it isn't an option for most people because everyone needs their computers to do work.
01:56:46: And really I kind of view that as, um, you're, you're dealing with the symptom of a problem.
01:56:55: You're not dealing with the actual problem by smashing the computer or getting rid of it. And so we do institute some, uh, we have some software.
01:57:03: We, uh, we require our people to, uh, put on their phones, put on their computers.
01:57:09: So if they do try to access pornography that the group then knows about it, um, because, because of that fact that almost everybody needs a computer today in order to survive.
01:57:20: Well, don't forget about the overcome conference from 10 AM to 2 30 PM on May 5th.
01:57:27: What day of the week is that? That's a Saturday, Saturday, May 5th, Cinco de Mayo. And, uh, it's an interesting connection there.
01:57:34: And if you want more information, you can go to Carlisle C O F C .org
01:57:41: Carlisle C O F C .org or go to when
01:57:47: I am weak .org when I am weak .org, which is the website for overcome.
01:57:52: Uh, in a minute, do you have any summary of what you want, want most etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today?
01:57:59: Um, I guess I'd say this is, uh, that if you are out there and you're struggling, um, you know, we didn't have any, very many people emailing in questions for us.
01:58:12: And I understand that. I get that. I talk about, uh, pornography all the time and it's easy for me because this is what
01:58:18: I do. I'm a preacher. I talk about weird stuff all the time. It's my job,
01:58:25: Chris. Um, I talk about the things nobody wants to talk about. Um, if you are out there and you're struggling, there is hope.
01:58:33: And as much as you might believe that there isn't and that this is just your way of life and this is just what, what you've been given and there is no hope out there.
01:58:41: Let me tell you that there is, there absolutely is hope to get out of this.
01:58:47: Even in the worst of situations, if your wife doesn't know, if you've lied to her over and over and over again, there is freedom from that sin.
01:58:57: And the reason why we choose, we chose the name for our website is when I am weak is because it's going from, uh, second
01:59:03: Corinthians, uh, 12 and verse 10, uh, for when I am weak, then I am strong because that in, in that verse is the answer.
01:59:12: When we try to beat this thing of our own strength, that's when we fail.
01:59:17: It's when we hand it over and we say, I'm, I'm allowing myself to be weak, allowing people to see who
01:59:23: I really am, that we find the true answer. That's wheniamweak .org. Thank you so much,
01:59:29: Chris Crotz. Uh, I look forward to seeing you again at my, uh, one of my next, uh,
01:59:34: Iron Trip and Zion events. And hopefully you'll be taking photographs again. I want to thank everybody who listened to the program, especially those who wrote in, uh, make a note to stay tuned tomorrow, tune in tomorrow,
01:59:45: I should say for Sam Frost, who is going to be discussing breaking the chains of addiction to alcoholism.
01:59:51: And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.