EFCA Censoring Pastor for Opposing Covid Regs? & SBC Cooperation Board

Technical Difficulties and the Podcast’s Opening Remarks

We're live now on the conversations that matter podcast. Some people are telling me in the chat. I haven't even said a word yet and People are saying that YouTube is already For those streaming on YouTube flagging this video for misinformation so I'm not sure what that would be about maybe a certain virus That could be which I don't really plan to get into details on but I guess it was in one of my tags or something.

And so they've decided they're going to preemptively warn all of you Well, welcome to I guess a very dangerous podcast with views that you're not supposed to hear according to YouTube. We'll get through it though.

We will survive and we're in this together, right? We you heard that for years and I still believe it. I still believe that we're in this together, so Anyway, this is a little bit of an informal podcast.

I did not announce this I Was just thinking about the fact that I only did one podcast so far this week and there's a reason for that I've been pretty busy with a bunch of things some some medical things and then.

And don't worry. I'm okay. I'm everyone everyone's okay. There's no Problems that are life-threatening or anything like that, but but I spent some time this week on the road and in doctor's offices and In the time I did have to be at home I wanted to spend really thinking about some speeches that I'm gonna be giving and One of them I mean you could say I got carried away, but I've been I think it's important.

I've been researching classical liberalism and trying to understand it better and Brushing up on this week. I was reading some Old philosophers like John Locke and it's Enlightenment philosophers really Thomas Hobbes Jean Jacques Rousseau and Under trying to understand What changes took place?

What transitioned us from a? more medieval society a more Christian civilization really to the society that we exist in today and And this is of course something I had opinions on before last week, but I think that I'm Gaining a better grasp of of how secularization took place and what its implications are and how that's affected us deeply very deeply in ways that uh, Are are surprising so i'm i'm writing right now A speech to give at the jesus and politics conference, which i'll have more information for you on.

Not not too long. I've not really said much about it because Uh the retreat or the the men's conference I should say Is right around the corner it's actually next week and so i'm going to be giving a speech there as well but uh This is literally your last chance like if you want to come to the men's conference october 21st through the 24th In speculator new york, uh, like later today.

I am sending in the the rooming lists and Letting them know how many people were coming and all of that. We're arranging the schedule. So You have to do it like now. Um, you can email me I probably the best way to contact me would be info at truth scripts .com.

It'll it'll make its way to me if you have any questions, but but this is the last chance. So anyway um, I did let people know that i'm going to take questions today any questions you have, uh, so Um, but let me just finish up real quick the classical liberal thing.

So i've been looking into this and and you know, basically this kind of notion I suppose that We ought to have A set of neutral societies that protect someone's right to choose because that is the primary I would say the individual is the primary building block of society.

Not really the family the individual and the power of the individual to choose. And give consent is what gives any validity to human associations including civil government and. And so that idea I think has made its way very very deep.

And it is ideological and it does lead to some of the same things that we saw actually in soviet countries Through a different route. Uh, it's not entirely the same. I'm not saying they're exactly parallel but they both come from this root of enlightenment rationalism and They do lead to uh, ironically, this is the weird part, right?

Valuing individual freedom actually leads to bigger government. And I have to define that carefully. It's it's not individual freedom in the sense that Individuals are endowed with certain rights. I do think that is the case.

And that was um part of the the pre-existing understanding that christians had before the enlightenment that there were certain things that were within the jurisdiction of Individuals as but they were attached to responsibilities as they had responsibilities before god to do the good and um, and of course Uh now though that has been Twisted to take away the element of responsibility and it's really just individuals can do anything they can pursue any vice and as long as it's On a personal level then it's perfectly fine and I uncovered today I was looking at a number of people if I if I told you their names you would recognize them I don't want to give away the speech but Uh big conservative names and some evangelical names that said things that frankly if you if you listen to them.

They're shocking that they would say them but they come to to conclusions about allowing certain moral evils and maybe even defending them and their free exercise of them at least because they value this neutral public square and so.

Has that been successful? That's the that's the question. I don't even think consent can can save kids from groomers at this point I mean, I think it's been a failed project uh for the most part so i'll take a few questions before I get into really uh I I have two or three topics depending on how much time we have that we can talk about today uh regarding uh, the evangelical free church regarding the southern baptist convention and then I was going to show you.

If you haven't seen already There's a little video that apple just put out there that I think is is funny in a way it's sad. It's scary in a way too, but it it's uh, it's interesting. So let me take some questions though.

G3, Christian Nationalism, and the Limits of Denominational Cooperation

Um, We have uh scott scott crawford, uh saying can you speak? To why the g3 guys are still going after stephen wolf Uh and matthew fletcher. What's g3? Okay so I have two questions, uh. So yeah, g3 is a ministry, it's an organization, uh designed or With a mission of assisting local churches and hopefully i'm not getting anything wrong in that i'm being General enough hopefully to encapsulate all the things that they do.

And they would claim to be reformed. I think they're they're baptist, uh, if i'm not mistaken on. Not saying they don't have presbyterians ever speak there or anglicans, I don't think they do though, I think it is primarily baptist, but Uh be that as it may, uh I'll answer scott's question sort of um I think there's going to be more conversations about this next week for everyone who's listening uh this there has been attempts made through back channels to Um rectify at least get conversations going to.

Maybe solve this issue and and uh, all I can say at this point is that so far I don't think any of these attempts have been successful. And we're going on now a few months really and because of that I think that some things are going to be um, I I think there's implications to that I I think that When you have a strained relationship think about it on a personal level.

Let's let's say you have a strained relationship and. Someone who you would consider to be a friend. Uh, and and perhaps they're a christian as well like you consider them a brother or sister in christ, but they they keep misrepresenting you or they keep saying things that you know aren't true or malicious or you know, whatever the case may be and.

And they and they have a public platform. They're broadcasting this publicly. Let's say and they're saying this about you and you try to come to them uh as a friend and. Then their reaction is that they they don't want to treat you though in that way and the relationship you thought you had isn't really the relationship that.

They think that you have with them. And and I think that that's uh, everyone has situations like that in their lives. I view this in a similar fashion, right? If you can kind of Get the all the static out of the way and you know and on accounts that that say things and uh, you know that are sometimes a little off the wall or um just uh I don't know some of the more ridiculous and silly arguments because so many of them have been silly in this whole.

Uh, I guess I would frame it as a g3 versed proto. It's not even christian nationalists proto christian nationalists. It includes people that don't even take the label. I would say that um. If you try to take those things away at the end of the day.

What you seem to have is a Hesitation and that's a mild term probably more likely would be an unwillingness to really approach this whole disagreement on an equal footing on a footing where you're both viewing the other party as brothers and sisters in christ where It with the intention of working out differences or at least clarifying disagreements.

Uh, and and since these things have been made public letting the public know where these disagreements are. So so iron can sharpens iron that that has failed in my opinion, and I think the time is very short.

The g3 conference is what the end of next week. I think time is very short um because you know if if they do have which i'm assuming they're going to they have a pre-conference that's uh, I guess going to be addressing some of these things if they do say some of the things that um Many are are thinking they're going to say I think that the damage at that point is just permanent so um, if any of you I mean last-ditch efforts if any of you know anyone that works for for g3 and.

And i'm talking about specifically people like josh bice scott anneal people. I've reached out to uh, virgil walker. Um, I I would say owen strand too. I mean he speaks for them and and he's definitely been part of this.

I I would any of those guys, you know, if you're close to any of them, I would just plead with them at this point. To uh to try to I guess offer an olive branch of some kind to at least let the other side know that there is a humility there that wants to understand What the objections and misunderstandings are?

And and that's really all I have to say about that for now. I know that's a whole minefield to get into. Um, but You know some some other questions. Uh, let's see here. Someone asked me if i've listened to bill roach's talk on christian nationalism.

I didn't know it was out bill actually had Privately, uh texted me and said he would send it to me. So this is the first time hearing I did not know that. Um, he hasn't texted me. So I I now I know um, I I am looking forward to hopefully listening to that at some point um I I I did see I think this was maybe what a month or two ago bill had uh, Put out something and most of you probably don't know who this is.

He has been on the podcast before though and and You know as far as I know, we're friends. I think we're friends, but bill, uh Bill and I have known each other for a few years now. He was a professor at southeastern in philosophy.

An adjunct professor at one time and so and because I went to southeastern we had a commonality there. And we were both opposed to the social justice. Stuff that was happening there and Um, anyway, uh bill had posted something if I if memory serves me correctly, this was maybe two months ago on uh I think Saying that there was a hegelian element to christian nationalism which You know it it's post-modern.

It's hegelian. There's all these things that are being kind of thrown out there and um I guess I have a natural skepticism a little bit when someone starts throwing those terms out there and And they're not easily explained and so I asked him to Explain that like I am open.

I want to understand what you're saying. Uh, I mean some books i've been reading have been showing that or Talking about how classical liberalism is actually hegelian or there's a hegelian element to it.

Uh,. And and of course marxism cert marks was certainly influenced by hegel. But you know, I don't know hegelianism is is uh, hegelian philosophy is also broad. It's not like there's one thing I mean most of the time I think when people say that they're talking about the uh you know thesis antithesis synthesis and the Dialectic and stuff but but I didn't know exactly what he meant.

So I asked him about it and he said hey, uh I'm gonna be releasing this and when I release it i'll let you know so that's the last i've heard about it and I do look forward to it, but uh Some people are saying that hegel's based.

Okay, maybe you know some of hegel I was I actually read a book on hegel not long ago because I wanted to understand hegel better I mean I took philosophy so I I had to Do understand him a little bit, but I read a book, uh on him and um, the book was actually making the argument in one section that some of the accusations hegel gets for Inspiring authoritarian regimes and so forth is actually not a correct reading of hegel and so uh.

So so maybe we'll wade into that at some point, um, it's an it's an interesting field. But uh, it's easy to get lost in the weeds I suppose um. Let's see other questions here. Uh. Yeah, craig chambers, uh who has been on the podcast says good afternoon brother saw the efca title.

Uh joining in. Yeah, i'm gonna briefly talk about it. It's not going to be very long. I'm going to briefly talk about the the evangelical free church. Um, all right. Well, I think that's it for the The questions.

Authority, Respect, and When Leaders Lose Credibility

Oh, wait, there's one more. What is this? Okay, john. What's the nice profile pic by the way? Uh das Vandever john, what's the the balance between honoring the landmarks ie authority figures and institutions?

But also recognizing when they failed ie jenna ellis's continual appeal to the constitution. Um, yeah, that's a big question. I I guess I would say that Landmarks i'm not I'm assuming you just mean kind of like hierarchy so authority structures that were once in place that we once trusted that once had some authority and uh.

And and some of them still do but we recognize that they've failed us and that we don't trust them anymore. I think I don't know if they're a balance is even the word. I mean, it's it's again I like to break things down to a smaller level.

Uh to make them more understandable so I think that Let's put it in this context. Let's say you attend a church and there's someone let's say there's a pastor there. We'll make it an authority figure who really does have legitimate authority or life.

Jenna ellis has no authority over my life, but let's say it's someone who actually does. And they've been preaching, you know fairly solid at least you respect them. Let's say, you know little disagreements, but for the most part, you know, you're on you're in agreement.

And you feel comfortable submitting to them and then you know one day they start going off the deep end. They start saying things that you know aren't true. Uh, they become belligerent when you try to confront them about it or even ask questions about it.

And and then there's a pattern of that happening and Um, I think at that point there's a natural thing that takes place you lose respect and once you lose respect. For someone it's uh, it takes time to get that back right it takes repentance.

It takes a course correction that you can clearly see that this person is not off the deep end anymore and so Um, I I have a hard time writing people off forever. I don't think we should ever really do that but I do I'll put it this way.

I never really listened to jenna ellis's. I think she has a podcast. I never listened to that anyway. But if I did and I I did know who she was at least I have for a few years um right now, I don't think I would be listening to it if I had been and it's just because it's it's it's not that.

You can't disagree with someone and still value their opinion. I'm not saying that but it's it's more. Whatever basis for respect that had been there is kind of eroded at this point because of her online interaction some of you might not even know what i'm speaking of i'm assuming the person who asked the question does but Uh, she's been acting in ways that are just uh Hard to make sense of i'll put it that way wild accusations Against people even and friends of mine to be quite honest and um, i've uh, I think I engaged with her once where I She she was um taking aim at the idea of blasphemy laws.

Which by the way, we already have I mean if you that's really in a way what a hate crime is. It's why you can't say certain words or there's certain symbols that if you desecrate them, there's a stiffer penalty.

We have blasphemy laws um, we have protected classes that shall not be uh Disrespected in any way and they have the legal force to prevent you from saying something that could be construed as disrespectful, right?

So so this is just the way it is and Um, I I think that's probably an inescapable Feature of any civil society. There's going to be a a god of that society or something they worship that uh Provides the rationale for the the society to function.

And once you attack that underlying rationale, you're attacking the basis for society itself and it's destabilizing and uh, it promotes disrespectable laws and that kind of thing and so blasphemy laws were Just part and parcel to the founding of the united states.

They were just included in Everywhere. I mean it was just it was ubiquitous um, the founders of this country and I'm speaking of those who framed the constitution. I mean, they didn't really see a conflict existing between the local and state Blue laws blasphemy laws that they lived under sabbath breaking laws and The freedom of conscience that uh, many of them held to and the bill of rights and those kinds of things they didn't see a conflict there, but Today we do and part of part of the reason I think is the classical liberalism I I talked about at the beginning of this it is just made.

Uh, it is marched more progressively in an egalitarian direction so, uh, you know with that said, uh, I had I think jenna was going after maybe it was steven or someone for I think it was cj angle actually she was really viciously going after him and he wants to replace he wants to take I think it was Have a civil war and replace the constitution and all these things which um, I don't think is true but I just posted Or retweeted it and put a picture of george, washington and then george washington's There was actually twice in 1770 5 and 1776 george, washington ordered his army.

And there was punishments involved that they did not heed this this order to Not blaspheme and to also attend church services. And so I just asked whether or not, you know, george washington was a tyrant because she was calling I guess it was cj angle a tyrant.

So, I mean i'm trying to ask questions. I'm sure you know, that's the only way I had them dealing with this. But but I think that there's enough out there at this point to say. All right. Let's find better leaders.

If if we're going to listen to commentary and if we're going to Follow it And put someone out there in the public sphere to represent us. Then it's probably not going to be someone like that. We we want someone who's going to be accurate and faithful to what they're analyzing and And has the correct I guess system of Values and understanding to be able to evaluate those things.

So that's a long-winded answer. I suppose I could have probably said that in a shorter way, but hopefully that helps I I realize that means we have a vacuum right now and I don't know what to say about that other than We need to pray we need to just pray.

There's so many I tweeted out this morning. There are so many Just leadership courses and Leadership programs and degrees in leadership and so few leaders and it's a very sad thing to me. Okay, so and I think that's it for questions for now, let's get into some stuff.

How's that let's get into some stuff. Um. Where should we start? I I guess we'll start with efca maybe uh since um. Oh, and by the way, if I didn't mention it overcoming evil conference .com if you're a last minute, you know.

You want to sign up last minute? Um. Efca and socialjustice .wordpress .com. Efca and socialjustice .wordpress .com. Is the website this is uh. An article and it's very long. I'm not going to read this whole thing.

EFCA Censuring a Pastor Over COVID-19 Church Closures

But uh, I was tipped off to this because uh. One of the pastors actually who writes for truth script is in the efca or was I should say was in the efca uh, and um, he sent this to me and he Just like we had seen pastor clear Recently being censored by the evangelical free church for his anti-social justice views now we see pastor david whitney also being censored so his Basically, his ordination is being called into question is my understanding of how this works.

And it's on a different stand. It's on it's because not not social justice, but because of covet stuff which is probably why you saw a Warning on this video because that dreaded word is going to be in it.

But he starts it off. Um. The story sequentially of what happened to him by saying back in november of 2020. My cluster in the efca east met by zoom. I assume that means the cluster is probably a group of pastors in that region.

He said during the session each pastor was asked how his church was doing during the pandemic. I replied that we had not shut down in person worship during this time. And he gave his reasons for that.

My statements he said seems to upset and anger several pastors in our cluster. I didn't know it at the time, but three pastors began investigating my sermons and demanding a meeting just before christmas.

The timing did not work for me. So we ultimately met on zoom prior to the meeting. I asked one of the pastors guy knee bone for a list of questions. They would be asking so he could prepare. He never got a list.

Um pastor knee bone, uh I'm, hoping i'm saying the name's right Keens and ridel right ridel. We've actually we have talked about him. He is very woke from the clips that we've seen. He interrogated me for two and a half hours.

And they were very aggressive in their attacks on many things which I said in the sermon they had listened to pastor Keens said that he would be horrified if anyone in his congregation ever listened to any of my sermons.

Pastor knee bone spoke of how they were spending a great deal of time and effort studying and learning from critical race theory. He and others started and they believe I was a christian nationalist and that such a stance was unacceptable in the efca.

I'll just take a quick break here. One thing you you have to understand I I need to emphasize this point more and more is that that term christian nationalism that is being condemned so strongly by members of evangelical Organizations.

Is Yes, it's it's being appropriated by certain people for uh protestant Reformed political thinking paleo conservative ends the theonomic ends. It depends on the person who's appropriating it but that that that is a catch-all term that People in the world just throw at any christian who thinks that they should be Vocal about their faith in public.

I mean that pretty much makes you a christian nationalist in the minds of Of those people so I think it's just you know, and here you you see it being parroted by unfortunately evangelical leaders. Needless to say I was astonished beyond measure.

I could not even conceive a fellow efca pastors doing this to another efc pastor so he so he was I think a lot of pastors are like this just kind of Hit upside the head and and this is a pastor who my understanding has been an efca pastor for something like 40 years so this is someone who's been there for decades and They're and some of these guys are young.

Younger than him i'm sure and uh, which which is you know, it's not like they don't have legitimacy because they're young but You would think that there would be a respect and a seniority that they wouldn't be aggressively going after someone like this in the first meeting.

Um fast forward to september 2022 John nesbitt of the efca east contacted me regarding the necessity of meeting with him and apollo freer or Frary i'm not sure how you say his name regarding my credentialing in advance of the Boms meeting a few days later.

He apologized for so short a notice for the meeting admitted that he had put off this meeting. Which he knew needed to be done. I cleared my schedule to be able to Meet the time crunch that they were under.

I asked him for a list of questions That I would be asked in this meeting. He gave me the generalities. So Um, he goes on and he said apollo did not provide any questions. Though in the meeting he read from a list of 11 questions he had regarding christian nationalism it would have been.

It would have met the biblical standards of justice to have given me these 11 questions in advance as he clearly Had a list he was reading from. Uh in this zoom meeting on september 13th John said that the district office had received complaints about cornerstone.

That's the church. He pastors regarding its adherence to the church constitution. I asked for the names of those who had made the complaints both. John and apollo refused to give those names. Claiming it was not right to give me those names and john was uncertain.

If it was two or three people and would not clarify if it was men or women and stated he did not know if they Were or were not members of cornerstone this refusal does not meet the biblical standards of justice so procedural.

Procedurally this this whole thing is a mess. And this is a common story that I get from many pastors and just members and leaders in various denominations and christian organizations. That this happens quite frequently.

That the even the rules sometimes agreed upon in their constitution are not followed now. He says that The accusations which john received he said were in the constitution. I suppose that means the constitution of the efca if i'm not mistaken the specifics of those allegations I only know from the issues john raised regarding having one elder.

At this point in time and not holding a congregational meeting in 2021. There are other accusations. I have not been made aware of them. So he's saying, you know. As far as he knows I I suppose there's only one accusation.

Uh or two. I suppose, okay. So as to the second accusation our constitution does not require that there be multiple elders. It provides a process by which elders can be sought and nominated. Let's see here uh.

Okay. Okay. Well paulo launched into his questions about christian nationalism asked if he could give me a definition of the term. Okay, so he goes into the specifics of this. Um paulo said my answers indicated I was a christian nationalist.

So they have this. This list of you know. What makes you a christian national is probably like a paul miller thing or something and and then they they apply that and say. Well, this makes you a christian nationalist.

Uh. And and and that's a bad thing. That's a boogeyman. You're you're a bad guy. And this all started, uh from the looks of things with his refusal to shut down the church during covet. So that put him on the uh, the list that put him on the the unnotice.

John sent a list of documents. He required to further answer the accusations against me. Let's see. Um. Again, he's not revealing some of the accusers. I'm going to skip ahead here. Because this is very long if you want to see more of it you can go to efca and social justice.

Word wordpress .com. If you're in the efca and I would recommend if you're in the efca read this whole thing. Uh, at least if if you are somewhat Involved in the efca. I think that's important. Um, anyways this this gets.

I guess, uh. This gets brought up. I'm trying to find the exact section here. He he has thorough detail, which is good. You need thorough detail in situations like this because and recording things probably is is also a plus in situations like this um but This has gone to the national board.

So this is this is past the efca east and now um the national board and um. And he the claim here. This is very similar to the sbc's problem. The claim here is that in in Bringing this to the national board.

Uh, this is inverting the structure to form something more akin to the episcopal denomination and not a congregational polity. So you have uh now a national board getting involved in this more local matter, but they are.

Uh. And I think the efca is similar to the sbc and that they believe in the autonomy of local church. So you have the national board now? Um essentially Putting on notice a pastor and threatening to remove his ordination.

Because of this issue that started with not shutting his church down during covet. And so he responds he is Taking a stand he says there was only one issue of not fulfilling our church's constitution.

So it was the church's constitution. I was wrong not the constitution of the efca with the church's constitution. And that is that we were not able to hold a congregational meeting in 2021. Due to the inability to obtain a quorum during the pandemic.

This is a time when the large number of churches had closed themselves to any and all. In person worship the broad brush smear that we are not in compliance is not accurate. So they're the accusation is that they violated their own constitution by um, I suppose shutting down and the interesting thing about all of this is that uh.

This is a local church constitution and you have a national board now. Trying to impose but trying to apply the rules of the local fellowship and and police them now, uh. He says to suspend or otherwise remove my ordination would be a further to further violate the biblical standards of justice.

So so he is bringing it back to the bible at every turn in this whole thing um. The charges again here Is what greg strand sent as the charges you willingly and knowingly failed to comply by providing the necessary information for the efca east district to determine Whether the leadership of the cornerstone efc is following the church constitution and bylaws as accused.

It's a little bit technical there but um. That's the gist of it. So, uh, i'm not going to spend more time on it. But if people have questions About that, I would just suggest going to uh, the website.

Let's see if anyone's weighing in on this who knows more. Uh, craig chambers says the real issue is the efca has bent left and conservative pastors are being dealt with falsely and and that's what I and so and trellis says sounds like ryan turnip see it again who's in the efca i'm, sorry the not the efca, uh in the um Missouri synod lutheran church, missouri synod so, um.

So this is something that's happening cross denominationally. The guns are only pointed in one direction, right? You have actual heretics actual false teachers actual problems. But they're not being addressed instead.

The guns are pointed at the more conservative members conservative pastors conservative churches. And and this of course reflects the opinions of those who are in control on these denominations. They are Their managerial elites who have an allegiance to the liberal order not to the Oaths that they've taken or did i'm going to just say it or jesus christ or to primarily or to uh, the members of their churches and the pastors that they um assist and and so forth.

So this is the problem that's going on and there aren't easy solutions for it because You need men of character to be able to fill those roles and the question is Do those men of character exist and if they do and I believe they do I I have to sit to think that there are men of character out there.

There may be less of them, but I think they are out there. But are they then disqualified at early stages from Climbing those ladders to get into those positions. Um, that's another problem in a major one.

So what what's the solution to that, uh, it's going to be depending on where you are. But on a macro level, I mean there isn't much of a solution I I think for churches that have just gone this direction.

I mean, I think it the the goose is cooked so to speak. Uh, I mean you you could you could try what they're doing the sbc which is you know, let's let's rally every year. Let's try to get a bigger group to come out.

Let's out vote, but but it hasn't been very successful so far and. And I I don't have any faith that it will be to be quite honest with you. Um, There there's small successes you could point to perhaps but they're not going to be Enough to turn the whole denomination around which is what you need.

The SBC Cooperation Committee and the Fight Over Female Pastors

All right, well, let's talk about the sbc here. Um. On that depressing note, right. You could you could always start new organizations, right, but there's no structure that's going to full proof. Prevent this kind of corruption from happening.

Uh care men of character you need virtue you need virtue. Um, so so train virtuous men lead virtue. Follow the lead of virtuous men. Uh, there's not a whole lot of them. All right. So bart barber the president of the southern baptist convention.

Uh, this is in the biblical recorder. Um, he has appointed members to a cooperation group. Here's the story addressing things We have never done before in the history of the southern baptist convention will permeate discussions of those who will present a report Next june that could reassert or redefine what constitutes a church to be in friendly cooperation with the sbc.

These declarations that churches are not in friendly cooperation and these appeals in response to those declarations represent a change in the fundamental Processes by which we cooperate with with one another he said bart barber.

The 20 member cooperation group came about from a motion in 2023. Uh that in new orleans that placed the group's formation in bart barber's hands. Jared wellum pastor of tate springs baptist church in arlington, texas will serve.

As the chair other members include and it goes through a list and I recognize some of these names others. I don't. Um, of course, jonathan leeman is there you have. Uh, juan sanchez there who the funny thing is that jonathan leeman and juan sanchez are like the conservatives in this group.

I i'm pretty sure which which that if that's true. That would that that definitely gives you an indication as to how. Probably slanted left this group is uh, trevin wax. Uh gospel coalition guys in this group.

Um, richard land, that's interesting. Richard land is in this group. Um Donna gains, okay the wife of steve gains. Uh who he's he's kind of woke. Yeah, i'm willing to say that. Um. So so this is the group that that he's appointed it's people that bart barber thinks are good for this particular role and if you remember the whole issue was uh, it was sparked by The law amendment the mike law amendment to basically say that churches that are not in friendly cooperation with the southern baptist convention uh.

You know essentially. Oh, i'm sorry. I'm not showing you guys the article. Hold on. Here's the article. There you go biblical recorder um. That that if a church has a woman pastor or women pastors. They are not in friendly cooperation because that contradicts baptist faith and message and there have already been there's a precedent for this.