2 Baptist Bros Discuss DIE HARD and Baptism

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YourCalvinist Reviews: Wonka (2023) ***SPOILER FREE***

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What happens when two Baptist bros get together? Well, they argue about diehard and baptism. What else we're about to start conversations with a

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Calvinist So stay tuned Welcome back to conversations with a

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Calvinist My name is T Foskey and I am a Calvinist and I'm joined today by my friend

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Eric Yeager Eric Thank you for being with me on the show today. What's going on, man? Good morning.

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How are you? I'm doing well, and I want to kind of explain to people how we came to know one another

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Very recently. I did a baptism debate With the redeemed zoomer or I'm sorry.

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He doesn't like me to say the he's redeemed zoomer He's he's very cool. Very very very no definite article man.

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That's right. No definite article. He's like Batman not the Batman So anyway redeemed zoomer and I did a debate.

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I think it went pretty well But in preparation for that debate, I had watched your debate that you did was was it in Utah?

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It was up just outside of Salt Lake at Apologia, Utah. Yep. Awesome. Awesome, and you're at Apologia Church in Arizona Yep, and Mesa.

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Yep. Okay, cool. And that's the one the main like that's that's Jeff Durbin James White That is yes.

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Yeah, that's the main campus. Yep, and you have it's its own autonomous church. But yes, it's its main

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Yeah, well, that's what I meant. It's it's when people think of Apologia Church They think about Jeff and they think about James and I just figured you know

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We'd have a wide range of Baptists and some of them here, you know, they might have just thought it's a satellite campus or something

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Oh, I got you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you you're not Big Eva. So no And you have a you do have an interesting relationship with dr.

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White I Do have a very interesting relationship with dr. White So I am blessed and highly favored to be married to his daughter summer.

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That's cool Yeah, it's you know, we might have time to get into sharing a few funny stories

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We've talked about here, but I'll leave that up to up to you good sir. Yeah well, we'll get to that but I I just wanted people to know it when when

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I Connected with you. It was really it was because of your baptism debate. I had I had interviewed dr

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White back in Tullahoma and he mentioned he was driving to watch your debate after that Right.

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Oh, I saw your debate. I thought it was great. I actually used some of your some of the strategy that you took because y 'all discussed more the subject of covenant children and what what

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Constitutes the New Covenant, which I thought was awesome. And so I I messaged you we began to talk

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I even sent you my notes beforehand asking your thoughts. So so I was very appreciative It was a you did a great job.

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By the way, I really enjoyed it I haven't gotten back to you on that yet, but I yeah, I enjoyed it I was smart the the a deaf a redeemed zoomer do a great job as well

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Very smart young man. He is and it was his first debate. I was glad to get to do it I'm hoping to debate him on the subject of evolution because he he is theistic evolution

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And obviously that's a big big deal. And and I consider him a friend

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I you know, I and I think he's one of the few people that I could have a Conversation and a debate about that where it wouldn't go off the rails

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I think we could actually discuss major major things and not get too crazy. Well, I look forward to you reading

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Genesis 1 Exactly where are you getting this from this?

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Yeah, so that ought to be fun So I and and since you mentioned it I will ask my wife when we were talking about it about this this she said ask him what it's like to be

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James White's Son -in -law and I again I did You know that that is an interesting question

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I'm sure you have a unique place in the in the in the world as as being related to him and You told me a story about how you first met.

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I thought that might be fun. Yeah, so How is it? It's great. It truly is great

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The man that you see online is the man that he is in person. He's not always doing polemics at the dinner table, but Same same guy very consistent he has just about the biggest heart of any man that I know, but I worked

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I grew up in Vegas and I worked on the strip as Most people in Vegas do so I've come in contact with all kinds of celebrities

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In particular I worked at the Las Vegas Hilton Which had this whole Star Trek theme going on downstairs and I am a big time

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Trekkie Which was brownie points when I wanted to marry dr.

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White's daughter But anyway, so I all that to say I was never nervous around famous people

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Except that I from the moment I became a Christian about 12 years ago. I was turned on to dr.

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why pretty early and He's the one I was nervous to meet out of all the famous people.

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I'd met I was like this guy I can't possibly meet this guy. I wouldn't know what to say, which turns out is true so When I started dating his daughter

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I was doing some very cordial email correspondence with him I came down to Arizona to meet him and we sat at a

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Red Robin Having dinner him myself the rest of his family. I sat to his right.

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He was on my left. I sat in complete Silence, I didn't look at him. I didn't say a word

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I don't know if I even acknowledged his existence and I think he's used to that. He could tell that I was nervous So and I don't think he remembers this

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But about 45 minutes into the meal or so. He just looks over at me silently Reaches over and strokes my beard

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Takes his hand away and goes back to eating his pasta with marinara sauce I definitely did not have the opportunity to say anything to him after that To this day

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He pretty much established his dominance as the patriarch of the of the of the extended family at that point

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But no, he's a good man. Very good man. His wife is amazing. I love him dearly

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Amen. Amen. Well, that's a great relationship to have with your in -laws and I know I've told this story on the show before but Just very quickly

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I have a awkward James White story when when I first met him very first time I met him was when he debated John Shelby Spong and I did my best to try to sidle up to him like during the

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During the the breaks and stuff. I would just go and stand close so I could hear him talk and at one point

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He said I'm hungry and I said I'll go get you some food and he said we'll go to McDonald's get me a cheeseburger So I brought him back to cheeseburger.

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He gave me his room number So I go to his hotel room and he's and he invites me in and I didn't get food for me.

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I got food for him So now I'm sitting there awkwardly not eating watching him eat a cheeseburger in the most awkward way possible

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And he's just he's being gracious, but I know he wants me to leave but I don't want to leave Because I'm with one of my heroes

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I'm like, I don't know but I ended up leaving but it was just I told him that story until the home and he thought

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It was he's like, I don't remember that I said, I promise you it happened because I went home and told everybody that I watched

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James White. It is sure Yep, heavy breathing and all just This is awkward 26 year old because that's about how old

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I was Yeah Well, brother, we are gonna talk about One of the most divisive subjects in in the holiday season and no, we're not going to debate

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Christmas trees We're not going to debate whether or not we should tell our kids about Santa and we're certainly not going to debate whether or not We should use wine and communion because those are the big debates going on right now

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But what we are going to talk about is whether or not die hard is a Christmas movie and just in case people aren't looking

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At this if you were listening to this, I just held up the die -hard Christmas book Which was given to me by a church member.

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So this is actually the story set to the Which was the night before Christmas, but it's the die -hard story set to so so I am a

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I'm a die -hard die -hard Christmas fan and recently you

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Were you have the temerity? No, no, no the tenacity to post on your

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Facebook page that not only is die -hard not a Christmas movie But you said and I quote quote a good because it's true.

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Yeah, you said it's not even a good movie No, sir, and and and while I thought we were friends and you know, we had had this great baptism conversation

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And and I thought we'd really connected on us on a cerebral level. You hurt my soul when you say

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You know the wounds of a friend Somebody had to cut it to you.

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I understand listen if you remember before the year 1985 you have a real fond

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Spot in your heart for a lot of good movies Goonies, right? Well, you can see behind me all my all my posters whole list of amazing movies and the fact that a man of your caliber

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Would insult himself frankly enough to enjoy such a terrible screen adaptation of a classic

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American novel Is just a shame a lot of people don't even know that it is a classic

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American novel so that's very good reference and and and Did you know that?

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Who was it? Was it Fred Astaire who was first given the opportunity to play the part because he had played

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The novel was a novelization of a series of books and he had played the part and a detective

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Yeah, and so they and and it's like it was it Fred Astaire or I thought it was Frank Frank Sinatra, it was

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Frank Sinatra. I'm sorry. Can you imagine Frank Sinatra as John McClane? You know, it might have been a

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Christmas movie. Oh Yeah Okay. All right. So since you and I both are obviously

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I don't know if we'd call a season debaters But we've both been in public debate. We have we have both done this in front of audiences

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And and and we both understand the rules of debate. I decided not to bring a moderator

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I think we can be honest with one another and moderate ourselves. We are going to do just like a regular debate

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I'm gonna give you an opening statement. I'm gonna have an opening statement We're going to have a short rebuttal and then we're gonna have cross -examination and then we'll have a one -sentence

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Closing statement. We'll just say this is our you know, whatever that is so I am because you are my guest and and and we really don't

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I guess the thesis is Die hard is a Christmas movie and pot and I'm taking the positive Normally the positive goes first, but because you are the guest if you want to go first, you can go first or I'll go first I will

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I'm gonna I will cut you off right at the heels before you make the few fragile points that you have to support

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This okay insertion. All right, so you're gonna go first. All right, I will gladly go first my friend, please

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Yippee -ki -yay, my friend. Yippee -ki -yay. Yippee -ki -yay you got your opening statement and Take it away.

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All right So on the question of is diehard a Christmas movie brothers and sisters absolutely

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Unequivocally No, no And I present three reasons number one as you already referenced

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Keith, it's not even a good movie Yes. Yes. Yes.

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Yes. It has redeeming qualities. I loved I loved that Carl Winslow Left New York after his police gig and Ghostbusters I love that he had a time had time for another

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New York cop in LA But but it's no wonder that Carl relocated to Chicago after killing a kid

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That's not a very Christmassy theme. That'll really slow down the advancement of the career but fundamentally

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For something to be a Christmas movie The plot has to actually revolve around Christmas It's just an action movie brother with Christmas references sprinkled throughout like a

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Presbyterian dream number two IMBD, I don't know if you're familiar with them.

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Check them out They know what they're talking about. IMBD not only lists diehard as an action movie

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But it is somehow recognized as the greatest action movie of the 80s

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I don't know how that's possible given how terrible it is. Nevertheless There it is on the top of their list action not

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Christmas Now now some will tout the fact that Bruce Willis himself stated emphatically that diehard is not a

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Christmas movie They'll also mention that the director took a neutral stance by saying that it was not intended to be a

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Christmas movie As evidenced by the way by the fact that it was released in July Not November something that has only been done legitimately one time by a

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Christmas movie Which was Miracle on 34th Street and even that release was not done during the

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Christmas season for purely financial reasons Now these claims right these true claims that these claims are countered by radical

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Christmas diehard enthusiasts by citing writers of the script who state that diehard is indeed a

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Christmas movie So balancing all of these statements from those involved we still don't have a conclusion some would say no

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It's not some would say yes. Absolutely and others are neutral on the topic

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So this is where it is truly vital to go to the original source diehard was a screen

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Adaptation of a classic American novel by Roderick Thorpe and let me assure you

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Mr. Thorpe did not write a Christmas novel but As I was suffering through the agony of Bruce Willis's high -rise

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Rambo sequences I was comforted by the title of Roderick Thorpe's original title for the story nothing lasts forever and Although it felt like an eternity

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Between Bruce Willis making cute little fists with his toes And when he finally chucked professor

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Snape out of a building right in between there all of that Yuck in between after all of the terrible dialogue and and ridiculous shuffling through air ducts

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Roderick Thorpe's words rang true to my soul Nothing lasts forever and thank

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God because I couldn't have endured another moment of that movie Last point and this is by the way, listen up.

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Okay, hold on to your seat pal even if even if you were somehow able to show if you're able to prove that diehard is a

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Christmas movie The only Jesus that diehard is celebrating is the

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Mormon Jesus and honestly I don't think that's a position you want to adopt as a good

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Baptist I'm willing to bet that the vulgar nature of this flick has you watching it on vid angel

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Condensing a movie with a runtime of two hours and 12 tediously long minutes down to around 37 minutes

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Which come on that can't even properly be called a movie. That's just a short episode of the a -team

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Moreover seen as vid angel is run by Mormons or at least it was

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You can't call anything. They put out Christian in any Meaningful sense of that term and where there is no

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Christ my friend there is no real Christmas God is a God of truth

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Beauty and goodness this movie fails on all three It does not express anything even artistically that is true or points to truth

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Every point of this film is ridiculous. A man might squeeze his toes into a little fist.

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Sure Okay, this probably happens but let's be honest no man is ever going to admit it let alone recommend it to a strange man next to him on an airplane a

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Full -grown man of 200 plus pounds could never crawl through ductwork and survive

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It's not gonna happen and most importantly What are the chances that a

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New York cop could really defeat a wizard in one -on -one combat? Hmm?

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As to beauty the only beautiful thing about this movie is that it ended and Regard regarding goodness.

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Well, the movie is not only not a Christmas movie, but as I stated at the beginning It's not even a good movie according to every meaningful metric

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Diehard fails to even approach category categorization as a

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Christmas movie Thank you Okay, I have to I'm laughing so I had to mute myself

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I was laughing that the whole time you're talking not just because you oh and you're drinking. I'll just grape juice.

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I Said we weren't gonna have that conversation. No debates. No. No, this is just what

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Baptists drink People don't know that's like a huge thing on Twitter right now is the is the debate over and Whether whether it's effeminate to have

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Welch's grape juice for communion, so All right. Well, that was awesome.

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I love the fact. I love how much effort you put into it Unfortunately, it was futile, but we'll see

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This is this is going to be my my argument and and I did unfortunately

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I didn't time yours I do think mine will be a little shorter But but we'll see if I go if I go longer and you want an extra minute.

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You're welcome to have it I don't want to be I don't want to be unfair as I said a preemptively Seed my additional time, sir.

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Okay. All right, so Let I would okay. I'm gonna begin. I'll bring myself up as the the main person here so when we discuss the question of is diehard a

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Christmas movie we have to begin by saying that the the very concept of a

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Christmas movie is itself somewhat nebulous and hard to actually grab a hold of because the the arena of Christmas movies that that which that which classifies or qualifies as Christmas movies and universally accepted

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Christmas movies is such a wide and diverse group that it's it's it's a difficult thing even to be able to Come at and say for certain and I don't want to make this a rebuttal.

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I want to make this an opening statement So I'm gonna try not to address things that Eric said in his opening statement

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I do appreciate how much effort he put into it But here are three things that I think are required for a movie to be

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Considered a Christmas movie and we're going to talk about why other movies would qualify in these three requirements and because other movies fit these

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Qualifications diehard would have to fall into this category The first is that it is set at Christmas The second is that it makes references overt references to Christmas and the third is that it is themed around The holiday spirit the

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Christmas spirit. And so let's begin by asking the question. Is this movie set at Christmas?

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Well, obviously it's set at Christmas The very first thing we see is a man who is traveling to be with his family at Christmas They've been separated because of a job situation.

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And so he's traveling. He's carrying a Christmas present There's Christmas music playing the very first thing that we see in the film

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Is this this or is the setting and the setting is Christmas and and there are other movies?

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That are considered Christmas classics Which have nothing to do with Christmas except the fact that they are set at Christmas that for instance

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It's a wonderful life is set at Christmas Nothing else in the film really is forcing Christmas except that it's set at Christmas as well as home alone home alone is is

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Undeniably a Christmas film and why is it a Christmas film? Well, it's a Christmas home because it's set at Christmas So the first thing the setting is there it's set at Christmas And so it meets the first qualification of a

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Christmas movie The second qualification is the references to Christmas now I I didn't do this research myself

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But I did find this research online and I I can put the link in the description if someone wants to know where I got

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This information but here here the the the overt references to Christmas and diehard there are 119

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Christmas trees seen in the movie diehard. There are 15 other Christmas decorations

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Whether it be lights or tinsel or things like that. There are 12 Christmas carols that are either sung hummed or Whistled because at one point it's

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Carl Winslow Whistling a Christmas carol. Yes, and I say Carl Winslow to Which is the police officer played by Reginald Bell Johnson?

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there are 13 uses of the word Christmas and There are four other just uncategorized

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References to Christmas and one of my favorite lines of the film is when the the character played by Clarence Gerriard who also played in Walker Texas Ranger, he was

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Ranger Trivet and and in this movie He was Theo which is my son's name and he said

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Theo said we're gonna need a miracle to get through the seventh lock and The great

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Alan Rickman who I who who who must stand as a paragon of ultimate?

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acting chops and he said it's Christmas It's the season of miracles so he even references

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Christmas as the the reason why he feels like this is gonna work because it's the season of miracles and then finally the subject of the theme

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Of Christmas spirit and this is where I think we may get into really a hard back -and -forth in the cross -examination of this debate because Eric had mentioned just and again,

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I'm not I'm not rebutting this but it's not the spirit of the movie the spirit of the movie is altruism self -sacrifice love of neighbor and Reconciliation.

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These are all things that go with the Advent Christmas holiday Holiday theme

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Advent is about hope love joy and peace all four of those things are the are the are the principles that this movie is based on in the

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Conversations between Reginald Bell Johnson and and and and John McClane. I know I'm saying I forget his name in the movie

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Al Powell is his name. He's a police officer and how he's telling him to have hope don't give up We're all rooting for you.

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We're praying for you We want you to survive and then when they see each other at the end, they talk about their kids playing together

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This is a movie about self -sacrifice love of neighbor reconciliation. All of these things are the themes of the movie

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And I know that some people would say this can't be a Christmas movie because it has bad language Well, if that's the case then neither can

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Christmas vacation or Christmas story because both of those movies have terrible language It's some people would say it can't be a

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Christmas movie because it has violence Well Ralphie beat Scott Farkas almost to death.

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So don't tell me it can't be a Christmas movie It has some violence in it and they say it doesn't feel like Christmas.

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Well feelings are subjective and and appeals to authority are a Logical fallacy so I don't care what the writers say and I don't care what

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Bruce Willis says Because those are appeals to authority and I'm not concerned about that I'm concerned with objective truth and if home alone counts if Christmas story counts then diehard must count because well, it really is home alone

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For adults, so that is my argument that diehard is a Christmas movie

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You did your best sir So, I don't know what what you're thinking on timing here.

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Well, let's do a rip. Let's let's do our rebuttal statement So you heard what I said, I wrote down some of what you said

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I'll give you as much time as you want to rebut and then I'll try to match that time by whatever so You mentioned in your in your statement there that the concept of a

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Christmas movie is nebulous I'm gonna agree with you on this. There are all sorts of Christmas movies legitimate

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Christmas movies, which What what you might not even think are

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Christmas movies and vice versa right movies that aren't overtly outward Christian or Christmasy That you could properly call a

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Christmas movie You gave a couple good examples by the way You said number one in this nebulous arena of self feelings and which however you define what a

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Christmas movie is You said number one what binds it together is that it's set at Christmas Two overt references to Christmas and three that it has themes that that surround the holiday spirit

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Yep. Now Home Alone The whole theme is

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Christian and there's I mean Kevin goes to church he's got old man

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Marley with the Injuries on his hands who comes in as this formerly scary father figure that he's terrified of But after he goes to church after he prays to God He appears to himself as this man with wounds on his hands that comes and saves saves

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Kevin from the enemy saves Saves Kevin from death at the hands of the evil one

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How if you could like of course Home Alone is a Christmas movie. That's not it's nothing nebulous about Home Alone.

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So that one Duh, it's a Christmas movie. You mentioned a couple others. It's a wonderful life

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Listen with that cast it has to be a Christmas movie. All right You said that there's a few and I just wrote down to that in Diehard, there's 19

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Christmas trees and there's 15 scenes with tinsel for example

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Listen, if that's your if this is the standard you're using I want you to be consistent here Okay, because as somebody has said inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument

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If Christmas trees and tinsel make for a Christmas movie my friend

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You would have to admit that Twilight is a Christmas movie Twilight is set in a pine forest and the vampires themselves sparkle like tinsel

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Nobody in their right mind would say that Twilight is a Christmas movie and honestly, nobody would even say it's a good movie.

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It's not There's no redeeming stuff there Now the theme of this movie

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It's not Reconciliation you brought you brought up his family. Yeah, come on his family He's a it's a last ditch effort to save his wife who took a watch as a sign of this covenant to her company that She was making money for she wanted to be the career woman and big old

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John had to come in and save the day Okay, but what's he say? What was he saving the day from? Right, that's what this was the movie wasn't about reconciliation reconciliation was thrown in there

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This was about a bunch of Eastern Europeans with terrible mind you German accents terrorizing a poor company

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Shaking them down for money. They're thieves Okay language and violence you brought up don't disqualify a movie as a

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Christmas movie I agree with that actually God because he makes back to my opening statement because he makes things that are good and beautiful And true right

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God only makes things that are good and beautiful and true. He doesn't make anything else Yeah, we can have art that has

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Language in it that we wouldn't necessarily agree with and we can still see these themes and say hey This is at least pointing to something that is good and beautiful and true

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Listen a grown man Clenching his tiny little feet into a bloody fist for comfort

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That's a borders. That's a little creepy if anything dared to you It's a little weird people

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Unfortunately, I won't even go into it. Some people like that and that's strange Appeals to authority

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We all make appeals to authority my friend and mind you I didn't appeal to the authority of Bruce Willis I mentioned that he said it's not a

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Christmas movie. I didn't appeal to the screenwriter. I didn't appeal to anyone else Who did I appeal to I appealed to the ultimate author of this thing the the original author.

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Mr. Thorpe, right? That if you're gonna say we can't appeal to authority if we can't appeal to the actual author of a work

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Then you can't appeal to the Bible at all my friend It is a very appeal to authority that makes the book the

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Bible Relevant and we can go to it and we can know this is the author's intent and this is what he meant if you go

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To the book. Mr. Thorpe good service. This is not a Christmas story

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Of course, we appeal to authority. We all appeal to authority The question is which authority we appeal to and I would

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I would give to you I'd present to you my friend We must appeal to the original source. Oh There was a lot there and It but per the rules of debate.

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I am supposed to respond to your original statement This is supposed to be my rebuttal to that So I'm not supposed to bring in your your rebuttal in my rebuttal, but it's gonna be it's huh?

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I I'll allow it a little bit go for it. Okay, I was Trying to step because I know at some point, you know, we're gonna have some debate fanatics who watch this and they'll give us a hard So when

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I want to be fair, all right, so I have I wrote the whole time you were talking people saw me I was back and forth.

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I was I was writing down a couple things Right away. I just want to I want to say that your reference to Carl Winslow That's a chef's kiss because I love it the fact that that's how he was in Ghostbusters.

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You mentioned that that's great So I'm commending you for having an encyclopedic knowledge of pop culture

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Which is what what will certainly make us fast friends and I appreciate it, but you are still very very wrong and I want to just reference a few areas that that that you have

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Missed the missed the point here. You said the movie is not about reconciliation but the movie is all about reconciliation because even though we have this scenario where the

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The bad guys are coming in they're taking over the the the Nakatomo Plaza and all this thing is happening

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That is actually the the parallel between the two relationship issues which are going on between John and his wife at the beginning and the end the at the beginning

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They're estranged at the beginning. They are separated the beginning. They are they he's gonna go to her house

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He's not they're not even gonna sleep in the same bed She had I have a guest room made up for you, right? So they're not even in a situation where they're in a intimate marriage relationship, but at the end they are

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Embracing kissing in the back of the limousine as they drive away Argyle carries them away So there is this theme of reconciliation that's throughout the film

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And so I I would I would contest that that is certainly true secondly, you mentioned that that we are supporting the

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Mormon Jesus and and and I Have to tell you you're incorrect You're not incorrect about vid angel

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But you're incorrect about me because I actually get my movies from a company called. Holy moly media

32:33

Holy moly media produces DVDs that are edited. They edit out language sexual content and Grotesque violence any type of overt violence and the movie was still feature -length

32:45

It was like I always tell people it's like watching it on TBS or TBN if you watch it on TV They cut out the bad things or they might replace a word, you know, like yippee -ki -yay becomes hippie by day

32:57

Ricky Martin You know, it's like something, you know something different So the the the the people at holy moly media,

33:03

I've actually had conversations with them. I've done a video about their company So it I'm not supporting

33:09

Mormonism. I'm not supporting Mormons. And so I Rebut your assertion on that But I do agree that vid angel is a

33:18

Mormon company so those who use vid angel That they may have to take that into consideration You said he had

33:26

Looking at the story of Kevin from home alone because this is really one of the best arguments I think from a logistical perspective is the argument of home alone and diehard being the same movie just in two different Settings because again you have reconciliation at the beginning

33:42

Kevin is estranged from his family at the end He is reconciled to his mother specifically who's sort of in that place of that person that he's has to reconcile with and in the center you have the wet bandits

33:51

Who are the bad guys? Well and diehard you have the John McClane and his and his wife and in the center You have the

33:56

Eastern European Terrorists led by the greatest of all European terrorists ever and how dare you say he has a bad accent

34:03

Alan Rickman is the man how just just sir anyway, so but in in home alone

34:09

You mentioned Injuries to the hands of of the of the man and how he represents a

34:15

Savior figure John McClane gets injuries to his feet He's literally bleeding out of his feet and he saves his wife who represents the bride of Christ So don't tell me it doesn't have a

34:26

Christmas theme a Christian theme because there's salvation there's there's there's there's reconciliation and from a man who's bleeding and and Standing for his bride.

34:37

So and and and I would agree the fists with the toes thing. It's a little weird So I'll give you that one and I don't know it is.

34:45

It's very Very Tarantino esque so I will I will concede that fists with the toes is

34:51

Weird and the guy who said it looked a little too excited to be talking about it. So that's my rebuttal

34:58

Lovely Do we go into cross -examination at this point or how are we doing with this?

35:06

Yeah, millennialists. Oh, yes. Hey, thank you. Thank you for the for the reference and that debates coming up for people who don't know

35:12

I'm gonna be debating Spencer Smith on the subject of the rapture and I hope it's as fun as this

35:19

Because Spencer Spencer's a pretty pretty serious guy, but he's been he's been having fun with me We have a we have a phone call planned for this afternoon.

35:26

We're gonna talk about the debate So it is happening and you know what? I have just on a brief side note if you're wrong on the whole rapture thing

35:34

I'm sure you're willing to change your mind midair, right? Yeah Yeah, if if Jesus takes us out today,

35:42

I'm gonna be like yay All right. So yeah, so cross -examination.

35:47

Why don't we do it this way? Why don't we why don't we instead of like three minutes in three Minutes, why don't you ask a question? I'll ask a question

35:53

And that'll be a little different than normal so you get to go first you can ask me your first question how strongly

36:03

But by the by the terms that you set right when you're talking about Christmas trees and tinsel

36:09

How would you rule out? Something such as Twilight using that standard as a

36:16

Christmas movie Very good question. That was in your rebuttal So I didn't mention it in my rebuttal but that I wanted to get to that because Twilight even though it has certain vestiges of Christmas such as again glitter

36:30

Glitter by itself doesn't make a Christmas movie tinsel by itself wouldn't make a Christmas movie

36:35

Even a Christmas card on a table or something in a movie wouldn't make it a Christmas movie It's it's the it's the it's overt references to Christmas And this is where like like Rambo the original the original

36:48

Rambo movie I jokingly say it's a Christmas movie, but the only references to Christmas are a

36:54

Christmas tree Christmas lights and the weather and so I don't I don't push for that as much because it never mentions

37:02

Christmas in the movie as As a reason for anything that's happening and on the cold weather is part of it

37:08

So so I I I do have a line I do think there's a there's a line that makes something more objective in regard to a

37:15

Christmas movie. So so I would say they're Just those just glitter and tinsel and and weird vampires doesn't make something a

37:24

Christmas movie All right. So my first question for you as I said, we're gonna go back and forth is

37:30

What would be the fundamental difference? From the movie home alone and the movie diehard

37:37

What would be your fundamental difference to say this one is Christmas? This one is not and you can't and I want to clarify that and simply say

37:47

Leaving out and I know I can't I can't tell you how to answer But I would say leave out the fact that you might not like one movie just objectively.

37:54

What's the difference? so Objectively and I am NOT one I do not believe that truth and beauty and goodness are subjective things

38:03

They're rooted in the very very much so objective God and his creation, right?

38:08

So it does come down to truth and beauty and goodness The the as I pointed out in my opening statement the truth the truth of The Truth of a 200 -something pound man crawling.

38:26

There's all kinds of stuff in there, right of a 200 -something pound man crawling through ductwork It's not gonna happen.

38:32

Now. Could I see a couple of wet bandits slipping on some cars?

38:37

Sure, you know slipping down some stairs. Sure It's just more true, but it really comes down to the issue of beauty and goodness

38:46

Home alone, like I said home alone is a beautiful movie. It is overtly a

38:52

Christian movie It's it goes to church as Kevin goes to church in his time of need.

38:57

He expressly calls upon God for help Somebody shows up as a as a

39:03

Savior figure to rescue him. There's no type of calling upon God There's references to maybe a

39:11

Christians or a civic holiday and a cultural reference to Christmas with some hats and drinking and a

39:17

Bunch of cocaine and in diehard, right, but it's just a big civic party That's all it is

39:23

It's not actually rooted and the truth and beauty of what actually sits as the foundation of Christmas Which is

39:30

Christ home alone on the other and really does He's in a problem and he doesn't go to his own strength or his own his self and try to pull himself up by his boot

39:40

Straps, it's only after appealing to God for help that Kevin is actually able to accomplish anything meaningful

39:47

That's not true with with diehard. He does it all on his own It is it is Rambo in an office building.

39:55

I just love the fact that before we go to the next question I just love the fact of how serious we're taking this.

40:00

I just don't know I don't know if anybody appreciates how much this is a real I know we're being we're having fun with it.

40:07

But like we're like we're treating this like a real debate I will let everybody in on a secret.

40:12

I Have watched the movie once and I really didn't enjoy it. I Think that's so brilliant.

40:19

I just love the fact that you know a lot about it for somebody who has only seen it once Okay, all right, so I don't know how many other questions you have

40:28

I have only have one or two So I'll let you ask the next question. Um I Let's go to the the language and the violence issue, right?

40:44

Okay I actually I was aware that you didn't use vid angel. I saw that other video yours

40:50

Holy moly media, I think is what it's called. It's a terrible name, but no, they do a good job

40:56

Hey, they should be they should sponsor your channel because this is a lot of a lot of time that they're getting here today

41:02

But it's a holy moly media makes Christian They're explicitly Christian.

41:07

I'm assuming by the name Is there a line here as far as How what type of content right?

41:15

Let's say let's say in theory have it an explicitly Christian story.

41:21

Let's say you have the passion of the Christ take out the second commandment issue all that right?

41:26

But you have the passion of the Christ. This is just explicitly a Christian Story from the Bible, but they update it with modern language like Romeo and Juliet in the hood, right?

41:36

And it's filled with now all sorts of Explicit unnecessary vulgarity

41:45

And unnecessary Violence, would you say that even that explicitly

41:51

Christian story has now been polluted and tainted? To is it is it possible?

41:57

Here's the explicit question. Is it possible that that pollution and tainting of unfilthy unwholesome stuff

42:04

Can actually Bring what would otherwise be a Christmas movie down to the level of it's no longer a

42:10

Christmas movie okay, I think I I think I understand the general nature of the question and and and I'll I want to give two answers because I think one is a personal preference answer and I think two is more on the subject of Objective there are

42:29

Christmas movies that are in that are intended to be Christmas that are not Wholesome like there's movies a bad well bad

42:37

Santa, but I was thinking like there's I think there's a movie called Black Christmas Which is like a Christmas like a Christmas horror movie

42:43

And so I I would I would never watch that. I would never show that to my family

42:48

I would never enjoy that but I would still say it's a Christmas movie because it's it's it's using it's meeting those three criteria

42:55

Right said at Christmas. It's you know, even the Christmas themes that are mistreated in it It's still focused on this idea of Christmas, right?

43:02

And so I would still I would still qualify it from an objective standpoint, even though I would say I don't want anything to do

43:07

With that. I don't I don't like there's a movie where where I've never seen it, but the the the wrestler

43:15

Oh Goodness, what was his name? Big strong wrestler like one of the biggest strongest guys ever He played

43:20

Santa and he was just like Santa lost his mind and started killing people. It was like crazy It wasn't the rock but it was one of those big wrestlers

43:31

Goldberg Goldberg played played Santa and and and I didn't I saw the preview for it I was like, this is the craziest thing

43:36

I've ever seen. I would never want to see this but that is still a Technically a

43:42

Christmas movie. So it qualifies When it comes to diehard, I do have a soft spot for diehard because I Grew up watching it and this is where it comes back to personal.

43:52

I grew up watching it at my grandmother's house It came on Saturday afternoons and it came on with all the censoring

43:57

So I never knew that there was a lot of bad language I never knew that you know There was so much blood and everything because I never

44:03

I never saw that and when I grew up and you know those things You know, like I saw it for real.

44:09

I was almost like I didn't enjoy it. I want it I want it that's why I like holy moly media because it provides me a way to enjoy something from my even even

44:17

Christmas vacation and this is Where I think like like nobody debates whether Christmas vacation is a

44:22

Christmas movie But is it a movie you can enjoy with your your family? I had to get the edited version because my kids

44:27

I don't want my kids to hear Clark Griswold doing his 10 -minute rant about his boss and calling him all those very ugly names including some

44:37

You know, I mean he says the f -word several times and so it's like I yeah

44:42

I mean great movie, but I have to have the edited version to enjoy it. So that's the subjective part I can enjoy the movie but I'm gonna enjoy it without having to hear cousin

44:50

Eddie say the The the thing is full and you know, if you know the movie, you know, I'm talking about but he said, you know The the bad word is is full.

44:58

This is the scuba lawn. Yes So so that's that's that's my two answer is a great question, but that's where I think yes

45:07

There are some movies that I certainly could never enjoy. There's still Christmas movies, but they're bad and then here's why

45:12

I can enjoy these All right my and this can be our if you have another question or not we can begin to draw because we've been

45:20

I think we Beat this pretty but last last one for me on the subject of that If that is a standard that we're holding and saying okay, we can't because it has this this

45:33

Scatological language. I think that's the right way of saying it Do you do you think

45:40

Christmas vacation is a Christmas movie? Yes, or no, and you and you can explain why or not

45:47

So here's I think where we're not far apart in age, but we are different generations

45:53

You're I think by you. Are you Gen X? You're yeah, I'm Jenna I'm not and I really do think that some of this is a

46:01

Generational divide and I think that as much as you might want to think you're being objective in this

46:07

I really do think the nostalgia is playing a huge part in here because with Christmas vacation

46:14

I'm 37. You're you're 43 years older than me, right? in that time frame right there between Whatever.

46:23

It was 19 1980 and 1986 Is when all these movies were coming out you grew up with them

46:32

Yeah, I'll tell you the same thing with Christmas vacation. I've seen it once and I was about eight years old.

46:37

Oh, man Yeah alone is what I grew up with right? And so maybe Nostalgia now for home alone

46:45

But but that comes back to right there that would even prove that this is just there's so much subjectivity in this that to act as if Act as if there's really some type of objective standard that we could use on this movie is a little bit funny

47:03

But I know I would say I've seen the movie once I couldn't tell you anything about it

47:08

Other than I think there's a moose glass in it, so I don't know I Love you.

47:15

I just love that that you said there's a moose glass. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you Well, that's the right reference that I get it.

47:21

Yes Yes That's but that's from the first vacation when they went to Wally world where?

47:26

Marty moose is the character instead of Mickey Mouse they go to what because they they wanted to use Disney World But Disney wouldn't let him use it in the movie

47:33

So they created Wally world perfect, which is a which is a obviously a fake, you know

47:38

Walt Disney Wally Roy Wally world and it was the moose Marty moose Yeah, so I just to answer that.

47:44

Yeah. Sure. I guess it's a Christmas movie. But what do I know? I've only seen the thing once and I was a kid. So I don't know

47:50

All right, so we're ending the debate I'm gonna let you have your final sentence and you can

47:56

Appeal to your side of the audience and then we're gonna let people vote in the comments they can vote whether or not you think

48:02

Eric took me to task and proved that diehard is not a Christmas movie or You can say that I was right and that's why there's been a book written about it and I'm gonna and by the way

48:12

I love your shirt. I don't think I mentioned it but you have now I have a machine gun, which is from the movie Appreciate that that connection

48:21

All right. So just a quick Closing statement on this. Excuse me. I don't want to skew the voting one second

48:29

Mmm yummy nothing like that grape juice closing statement

48:36

It really does come down to a few simple facts If we admit that there is objective beauty and there is objective truth and there is objective goodness

48:46

By what standard are we determined that which is objectively good and true and beautiful?

48:53

Are we using the standard of nostalgic videos from when we were a child?

48:58

Are we using the standard that was set forth by Christ? If we use the standard that is set forth by Christ and we look at the themes of diehard, right

49:08

We might be able to say that the the topic of this debate isn't is it a good movie? I disagree I don't think it's good.

49:13

I was really bored. That doesn't even matter. Right? I am BB. I will appeal to their authority

49:19

They say it is the best Action movie of the 80s

49:25

But what they don't say is that it is even in the list of Christmas movies It's not a

49:31

Christmas movie by an objective standard that is used far and wide It's not a

49:36

Christmas movie. Is it a good movie? I'd say no. It's an action movie that is set at Christmas.

49:44

I conclude Well, thank you Eric for your conclusion, and I will also conclude my argument by simply saying that I think that One thing that we have agreed and I think we both would agree on today is that this certainly does come down to some nostalgic

50:04

Realities, but you mentioned an objective truth. So I will I will make this an objective truth

50:12

Oftentimes we are able to better judge beauty and Value of something by whether or not it stands the test of time

50:21

And so when we say objective by looking at something objectively has this film stood the test of time

50:28

It is still one of the highest watched films and You know when it's always watched according to statistics.

50:36

It's always watched in November in December That's when people that's when the the ratings go up.

50:42

So Objectively people see it as a Christmas film and they're keeping it alive

50:48

Because it is objectively a good movie so a good Christmas movie

50:53

So that's my final word on the subject Bravo, sir. All right. Bravo to you.

50:59

We'll clap for each other And what's funny is we did 40 50 minutes on something that doesn't matter

51:05

I mean, come on if we if we have to be online debating anything I would rather it be this than all of the garbage that people are bickering over Over on the internet now, but with that in mind

51:19

We're about to talk about some of that garbage that people are bickering about online Yes And I did want because I have you and of course we rarely get we've never done this before and we rarely get to really

51:28

Chat, we don't live near each other or anything. And when we do talk, it's only on Facebook I recently had an issue come up that I wanted to at least get your thoughts on And I want to I want to preface this by saying we're gonna make a hard right turn and everything from here on out is

51:41

Gonna be a little more serious This show is gonna go on for a little while longer and if you're leaving us now please if you liked what you saw like and subscribe but I encourage you to stay because this parts gonna be more valuable than the part that was before and Keep in mind that you know, this channel does funny and it does serious and that's what

51:59

I hope I hope you come for the funny and stay for the serious So that's that's part of what we're doing. But what what the issue is is that the subject of baptism?

52:09

Is something that Eric and I have discussed at length because we've both done debates on the subject of baptism and one of the issues that we often have to deal with as Baptists is how we qualify or or how we understand

52:27

Baptisms that are not done in accord with our understanding of how baptism is supposed to be done

52:33

So the first thing I want to ask Eric to do as a man who's debated baptism Who's obviously studied this subject at length?

52:40

can you give us in a in a you know condensed version the difference between our understanding of baptism and the understanding of a

52:49

Presbyterian baptism and the reason why I'm speaking of Presbyterian specifically because When we get to Lutheran and Roman Catholic and others

52:56

There's a vast difference but our understanding of baptism and Presbyterian understanding of baptism isn't as vast as people might understand it's really deals with who's in the

53:06

Covenant But I'm gonna give it to you for a few minutes and just sort of Outline that and then that that'll bring up the question that we're gonna discuss

53:12

Yeah So it really and you know this can be hard in a few minutes and I'm sure that there'll be Baptists on here that are gonna want me to say more and Clarify and and the other way

53:22

Presbyterians, but just broadly speaking, especially for those who aren't familiar This this really does come down to I would argue

53:30

This is why I did the debate on the topic that I did I think this comes down to our understanding of God's covenants and it comes down to Ultimately, who is it that is part of the covenant of grace and who is it?

53:43

That is not a part of the covenant of grace where we and the Presbyterians are

53:49

So in unity right and why we can call each other brother and why we can do ministry with one another

53:55

Etc is because if you were to stack up and I'm just going to use these two as examples There are variations

54:00

But if you were to look at the London Baptist confession of faith the 1689 and the Westminster put them side by side

54:07

There's actually a tabular comparison available online from Prognosco It's good.

54:13

You can look at everything That's the same between the Westminster the Savoy and the 1689 and you can look explicitly at what is different on the issue of baptism

54:24

Which bleeds into the issue of the Lord's Supper the question of who is in the

54:29

Covenant is Ultimately going to be determinative of who receives the sign of baptism, right?

54:35

The Presbyterian is going to can make an argument I Would argue from what they would say is good and necessary Consequences and I'm going to try to be fair here.

54:45

I would disagree and I think that there's explicit Teachings in the scriptures that that would not allow for their conclusions.

54:51

However, we don't need to debate that Their baptism is still symbolizing the very same thing that our baptism is symbolizing

55:00

They don't believe that it's the application of the water that actually saves they don't believe that it's the water itself

55:06

That actually regenerates a person neither do we it's the work of the Spirit it's the work of the

55:12

Spirit alone and this water is a sign and a seal of Membership within the

55:17

New Covenant right membership within this administration of the Covenant of Grace and the

55:22

Presbyterian is going to argue and say Hey, just like we see in the Old Testament over and over and over again

55:30

The the Covenant of Grace they would argue which I would disagree on that but they would argue the

55:35

Covenant of Grace is always made With a house without it's a household type of covenant, right and and the children were included in all of those previous administrations of the

55:46

Covenant of Grace God nowhere explicitly removes children from an administration of the

55:53

Covenant of Grace, therefore we are ought to still include our children in What would be the visible church and they wouldn't say that this means that they're part of the invisible church or not

56:04

This is simply saying they're part of the covenant community. They're part of the visible church. That's that and this this

56:11

The baptism itself is an initiatory sign of that and it will not necessarily at the time of administration

56:19

Conferred grace upon the elect right now the Baptists on the other hand and there's gonna be a couple differences here

56:25

I think you and I are actually pretty close but in short

56:31

We would say no a child is not a member of the Covenant of Grace by virtue of their relationship with a believing parent

56:42

The New Covenant really is New it really is different.

56:47

It's not simply a different administration of something that happened before It's new it has a new high priest a better high priest that is actually able to intercede in the heavenly

56:57

Tabernacle for all of its members and Jeremiah and Hebrews both say here's what the

57:03

New Covenant is. The New Covenant is Essentially the forgiveness of sins, right?

57:09

You have Jesus Christ as your federal head. He is your representative He is your intercessor that can only properly be said of those who have regenerate who have regenerated hearts to those who have been given the gift of regeneration and Exercise that God -given faith reaching out and grasping

57:28

Christ and his promises We would say that's who's in the New Covenant because those who are in the New Covenant receive

57:33

Forgiveness of sins and the way that we as fallible humans recognize who it is that has actually been brought into that covenant by Christ and his

57:43

Spirit is we Recognize that not by understanding if they're regenerate It's by profession

57:50

Has this person professed with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord has their pattern of life

57:56

Actually shown a pattern of repentance. We as humans at this point now have a reasonable

58:05

Reason to believe that this person on account of what has happened in their life the supernatural change

58:11

That's only a result of the Holy Spirit and therefore we administer the sign of baptism to them

58:18

Because it's only those who actually have regeneration that properly should That that are properly in the

58:26

New Covenant and it's only them therefore that should receive the sign of the New Covenant I can boil that down to something simpler if you want, but I think that's the shortest fairest

58:37

No, I I think you're right I think the way you explained it was very good and I would definitely agree also that the the distinction

58:46

Between the Presbyterian and the Baptist and it is is or not not distinction rather but the what brings us together is both seeing it as a sign of of God's work rather than Something that caught a causal thing like when

59:03

I when I did my discussion with the Lutherans I had I had a group of Lutherans on And they said no we believe in baptismal regeneration.

59:10

We believe that baptism is causal. It's it's a Effectuous and even with my debate with the with redeem zoomer

59:17

He he sort of tried to take a middle road there where you know where he sort of take it took a position which some

59:24

Presbyterians take and that is that It has the power to produce

59:30

Regeneration and therefore we give it because it you know We don't know when regeneration is gonna happen, but it it could happen then it could happen later and it's independent of the time

59:38

But it's effectuous and that was one of the things he brought up for me is how how do you believe it's effectuous or do

59:44

You believe it's effectuous and we say well, it's effectuous as a sign, but not as a not as a causal agent and where where the issue arises and Has come up with me recently and I'm almost hesitant to mention this because I don't want to make this something that creates a controversy

01:00:02

Especially with my channel or people that listen to me, but the question was brought up to me. Does your church accept

01:00:10

People who have not been baptized as a believer and I said our church requires for membership for a person to have been baptized as a believer and I had asked you that you know if you

01:00:22

What where you stand on that and you said you had been in a church previously that held that so you understood that position

01:00:28

I'm sorry to put I don't know if that's okay to mention. I hope Okay, great so um

01:00:36

So that that's kind of where I I wanted to bring this up is how do we see the baptism of infants as Baptists do we see it as sinful do we see it as simply a wrong administration or how do we?

01:00:54

Because that's the question was asked me. Well, well if you if you accept Presbyterians as brothers, but you're not accepting their baptism

01:01:02

How are you accepting them as brothers and and my answer and I'm gonna let you answer as well but my answer was that I Be we see there the administration of baptism is in error

01:01:14

But we're not saying that they are in damnable error or any kind of damnable heresy we simply see that administration of baptism as as incorrect and so Would you would you add to that or would you have thoughts if somebody asked you that question?

01:01:29

What would your thoughts be on that? Yeah, so Let's say the hard part. It shouldn't be a hard part, but let's say the hard part first, right?

01:01:37

Okay, if we're gonna be honest Baptists and we're gonna be honest Presbyterians both of us believe that the other is in sin

01:01:44

This doesn't mean we don't love you guys or that you don't love us But anytime you exploit you go against what the scriptures say

01:01:52

You're you're in sin and and and can I just I hate to interrupt you RC Sproul said that RC Sproul said that in his conversation with John MacArthur He said one of us is wrong and therefore one of us would see the other as in sin

01:02:06

So so this is you're not saying anything that somebody should if somebody hears that and begins to light up the comments and say oh

01:02:12

Eric said this or Keith said this We we all understand this. We're saying the other is wrong. And when you're wrong about theology, it's there's sin involved.

01:02:20

Yeah, okay but With with all that in mind, you know, there's a difference

01:02:27

But because as I mentioned a minute ago the gospel and the Christ and the

01:02:32

God that is being presented by the Presbyterian by the OPC Church a mile up the street from my house here is the very same

01:02:39

Gospel and the very same Christ and the very same God that is being presented at Apologia We have the same message of restoration with God, right?

01:02:48

We're therefore we are both true churches But this isn't a new debate, right?

01:02:54

A lot of people can get online In the 21st century and think wow, I've stumbled upon something entirely new how you haven't thought of this.

01:03:02

That's not the case This is this this was going on 350 years ago There was this open communion debate which we can define those terms if necessary in short the question that was going on 350 years ago between Who wrote

01:03:17

Pilgrim's Progress? John Bunyan and Spillsbury came in there and William Kiffin was involved in this debate stalwarts of Historic Baptist theology, especially in the

01:03:34

Reformed world. This debate was going on between them Hey, who do we accept into our church?

01:03:41

Who do we accept into communion into fellowship? Who is it that's actually allowed to get this Bunyan would say?

01:03:48

Yeah, no, it's it's it's faith that actually forms the church, right?

01:03:54

The substance is faith But the way that the church is formed is by profession of faith and that is what it was and because of this

01:04:00

John Bunyan Had open communion He would allow those who were baptized as infants or those who were not baptized at all

01:04:06

To come to the Lord's table and to take part of all of those downstream benefits of being part of a local assembly

01:04:13

William Kiffin came in against John Bunyan William Kiffin was like no

01:04:19

Like we see all over the pages of scripture that you're baptized first and then you see

01:04:25

Then you're admitted to fellowship and you're admitted to the Lord's Supper And this was this there were these two sides here, right?

01:04:35

Kiffin would say it was baptism that actually forms the church and therefore you have to have a proper administration

01:04:41

And you have to have it done according to biblically, right? You can't be doing this wrong Well that brings up all kinds of potential

01:04:50

Problems, how do you avoid at that point every time somebody transfers membership? You don't know if the very tippity -top crown of their head was actually fully immersed or not, right?

01:05:00

Is that a valid baptism if the water only came up to the middle of their forehead? I think any reasonable person would say yes, that's a valid baptism.

01:05:07

Hey, they missed the top of the head. It's alright But if we're gonna say that we would also have to ask the question why then is pouring or sprinkling

01:05:15

Not an acceptable form of baptism if you don't actually have to have this done it perfectly For it to be valid and counted as a sign of fellowship with other believers

01:05:26

Why then would we not allow for those who are sprinkled or different modes?

01:05:31

And why wouldn't we allowed for that for that and this debate was raging then Spillsbury came in with this rather controversial

01:05:37

But I think this is the answer that we need he came in with with this mediating view Which was he said that we have to recognize that the elements of worship that baptism the

01:05:48

Lord's Supper all of and Regenerating faith all this belongs to God and it belongs to him proper

01:05:53

It's his and he knows who this is. It belongs to him and we need to seek to obey him however

01:05:59

The administration and the mode of how this happens belongs properly to the local church and the local church's

01:06:06

Constitution Therefore because of this we can recognize that the substance if it would of what is happening and what is being

01:06:13

Represented and either of these baptisms is the very same Substance and the very same promise of the very same

01:06:20

Savior very same grace faith Etc is being represented by both of these One of them was done properly those who are immersed all the way to the top of their head the other

01:06:30

We would have to recognize is an error however Human error does not negate what

01:06:37

God is actually saying in his baptism Baptism is not simply a person's profession of faith.

01:06:44

It is that but it is also God's promise that You know, here's what's involved in the

01:06:51

New Covenant You're a member of that people do this wrongly people Error in this and some people err so much that their church stops even being a church

01:07:00

I don't think that either of us would say that's true Of the OPC Church up the street if they're preaching what their confession says, we would say they're brothers

01:07:10

Okay, so there I think there does have to be this median thing where we recognize we're both seeking faithfulness to the scriptures we both want to apply what it says, but Your baptism that you performed over there represented the very same thing that ours does

01:07:24

Both of us recognize that the person that was being baptized at that time may very well have not been regenerate when they were baptized

01:07:31

However, here they are now at my Baptist Church They've been baptized with the gospel over them with water

01:07:37

Maybe a little less water than we'd prefer and they're actually professing a true and living faith in Jesus Christ Why they've they've had all these elements even though they were applied

01:07:49

Inappropriately, they've had all of them. Therefore we ought to accept it. That was Spillsbury's argument. I think that's where that's where I land.

01:07:55

I know that's not necessarily where you then but that's where I land I think that's the good middle spot that avoids these ditches that are inevitable on either side of the road

01:08:05

Yeah, and this is where a lot of people may may I think take issue with with us and and when

01:08:12

I say us I mean our particular church. We are a Baptist Church as I know you are and our our our position is that we have two requirements for membership the requirement for membership is that a person must make a

01:08:30

Profession of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and that they must be baptized as a believer and that's that's what our

01:08:36

Constitution Reads and says and as of yet, we have not had an issue where that has been a problem

01:08:43

We have not had an issue where someone has come in and said, you know, I was baptized as an infant I wasn't yet a believer therefore

01:08:49

This you know, but it could happen and certainly I mean could happen this Sunday We may have somebody come in and and I was asked the question.

01:08:57

How would we handle that? That was the That was what made me, you know began our conversation about the subject

01:09:04

And when the person asked me how we would handle that I said, well, there's there's a few things to consider one is that we we do have a conviction on this issue and our conviction is that that there is a

01:09:16

Proper and an improper mode of baptism and like you said, I'm not saying that the church down the road isn't

01:09:23

Christian I'm not saying the church down the road isn't my faithful brother in Christ I mean we love our

01:09:28

Presbyterian brothers and sisters and I have some that are so close to me my wife and and the wife of a local

01:09:34

Presbyterian pastor are Are so close. They they have become almost best friends They talk every day and and so that's actually increased my relationship with him

01:09:42

And so we love each other and and I and I and I support him and he supports me

01:09:49

But on this issue, this is certainly an issue of disagreement and and like you said, it's an issue of sin and that's where that's where it becomes the issue for me is from a

01:10:00

For it sounds like I think we're being too harsh or too too too mean but we're saying no this is where we we stand and this is where we are and There's nothing that would keep a person from being a in our church.

01:10:15

There's nothing that would even keep a person from communion With us because our communion is is open to all believers

01:10:21

We we we invite people even guests who are believers. We practice a fenced table, but not closed

01:10:29

It's not only for members. So you would allow a visiting Presbyterian faithful couple

01:10:35

That's not under discipline to come and receive the Lord's Supper at your church Yes, we have and we do that But we do that regularly because we know we have we have visit

01:10:44

Presbyterian to visit with us Ever since the ministry is sort of grown online. We've had a lot more visitors a lot of people come in Hey Calvinist, you know

01:10:52

They kind of know me now from the silly videos the denominational videos But people will visit now who maybe wouldn't have visited before because they know who we are where it is for us is membership opens doors for things like service in The diaconate and service in the the the eldership and things like that and that's where we don't want there to be confusion

01:11:12

It's it's more in regard to membership not participation in the table not participation in worship

01:11:17

But when you become a member opening the door for other areas Which we would limit to people who would hold those same convictions.

01:11:25

So so that's kind of where the the line is for us So if you're speaking to your

01:11:31

Presbyterian friend, right who was sprinkled Even immersed they aren't against immersion, but that's they were baptized actually

01:11:38

Actually, can I say something about that before because what you just said is important to me um recently a friend of mine who was a

01:11:44

Presbyterian and he's a pca pastor i've had him on the show and He said that they actually are opposed to immersion

01:11:51

He said they will allow it but they but it is not the method that god has intended Which I thought was amazing.

01:11:58

I I mean i'm just saying I heard him say that I was like really So you're opposed to it. He said he's a pastor

01:12:04

Yeah, he's a very well I will lean on his expertise, but I could have sworn as I was looking over the westminster

01:12:11

That it said that baptism does not need to be by immersion but it can also be performed by sprinkling or pouring meaning that it's recognizing all three, but Yeah, I have to find

01:12:21

Pastor wants to correct me. I'll just take it. Uh, and and I could be wrong, but I know he said it he could be wrong obviously, but I I'll try to find that quote and send it to you when we get off camera because I was taken aback by it because it was it wasn't just saying that believers baptism was wrong

01:12:37

It was saying the mode was incorrect and the correct mode is pouring not Not immersion, which

01:12:43

I thought was amazing, but I know that's not what we're talking about. Okay, so finish your thought I guess i'm just like what would you say?

01:12:51

That the member at the presbyterian church around the corner Who was baptized?

01:12:58

as an infant Would you even qualify that as a christian baptism one?

01:13:05

And if not, then what were they what type of baptism was it? And what were they baptized into?

01:13:10

Okay, this is the heart of the question This is really and this was the question that the person who asked me was bringing up and they said well

01:13:17

Do you believe it's valid? I said I don't believe it's correct Uh, but but when we talk about the word valid that has that has a historic meaning

01:13:26

And i'm i'm not willing to invalidate Millions of people who have been baptized by immersion and invalidate their faith

01:13:35

But I am willing to say that that their their baptism was not in accordance with scripture

01:13:41

And so I have to I I do believe that I believe it's not in accordance with scripture I I believe god can still work in their lives

01:13:47

I still god god can still regenerate them and and and and god's gonna like you said he's gonna work that out in the end

01:13:53

But when they asked me do you believe my baptism was correct? I would have to say no. I don't like the word valid because And I know you

01:14:02

I know you're not trying to load a word for me. I'm just saying from my perspective I i'm i'm a little hesitant to say invalid

01:14:09

Because that almost sounds like i'm saying not christian. I'm not i'm saying this method this mode.

01:14:15

Um, and it would be It's not in the same category, but a similar category

01:14:21

Would be uh an issue of of of the lord's table if the lord's table is mistreated

01:14:27

I I have to say that if I if I believe it's not being done properly And I could say

01:14:33

I don't think you're doing it properly, but i'm not saying you're not a christian And i'm and so so that's where that that that's where this is a really a hard and again i'm opening myself up to plenty of uh to scrutiny from people and I know

01:14:46

I have a lot of Presbyterian people who listen to this who may get angry and i'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or say

01:14:51

I don't love them I do I appreciate them. I love them. I'm more concerned with membership because if I were to go to a

01:14:58

Presbyterian church if I were to submit to membership in a presbyterian church, they wouldn't force me to baptize my children

01:15:04

But there would be an expectation that i'm going to submit to them as the leaders of the church There's going to be an expectation of that and if I chose not to baptize my children

01:15:14

I think they would want a good reason why yeah I think they should because they would think you're in sin

01:15:20

That's right. They would think I was wrong and and and for us it's the same thing. I would say I think you're wrong

01:15:26

That you haven't been baptized since you came to faith in christ So how do we deal with that?

01:15:31

We either you can be baptized according to our Understanding or not and then that comes to the issue of membership at that point because again our what our constitution says and I'm willing to sit here for as long as you need brother.

01:15:47

Um, but I know you probably gotta go No, I really don't I was just I was looking at the time I'm surprised we've been at it this long, but I can keep going as long as you want.

01:15:54

Um any well anyways I I think to act as if that Uh that debate in the 17th century solved anything or everything.

01:16:06

I think it helped it would be sure would be foolhardy, right? We have to be aware Of our traditions, right?

01:16:12

We have to evaluate those traditions according to the scriptures, which I think all of us uh

01:16:18

Are going to say we're doing and we want to do that and we want to be corrected by the scriptures if our tradition is wrong

01:16:23

But the the baptist stream took a couple turns as well. The 1689 itself doesn't explicitly

01:16:31

I would argue doesn't explicitly say that uh

01:16:36

An infant baptism is invalid because it was a sprinkling or something, right?

01:16:42

Uh, they would say that it's not proper that the due administration Is for those who have confessed faith professed faith in the lord

01:16:50

Jesus christ and not destroyed that by the way that they're living and that they were immersed In water in the triune name of god, right?

01:16:57

They would say that's the way it needs to be done appropriately and that's the only proper recipients, right?

01:17:02

Which I would argue leaves open that well someone can still receive the real thing Improperly, right?

01:17:09

Someone can still put a wedding ring on their finger, even though they're not really married Uh, but it's still a ring uh

01:17:16

Now when we look there's that stream But you can also look at like the baptist faith and message stream or the new hampshire confession stream which make a stricter definition they define baptism as Full immersion of water of those who profess faith in jesus christ is a christian baptism

01:17:35

You know if you start with the definition that here's what a christian baptism is It is a full immersion of water of one who professes faith in the lord.

01:17:43

Jesus christ then anything other than that Would not be a christian baptism that circles us right back around to the problem of two of the average southern baptist getting baptized like 2 .7

01:17:55

times in their life because Have one at 13 and they have one at 24 and then maybe they err and come back half the time, uh, like No, it was a real baptism.

01:18:05

You you fell into sin and you repented praise god. You don't need to be baptized again uh

01:18:13

So I I just I guess what i'm calling for here is regardless of where we stand at on this in charity

01:18:20

I think all of us involved in this need to at least go to the scriptures evaluate our traditions We might not even be aware of where they came from but let's look historically because it probably came from one of those

01:18:30

Uh, where did where did your tradition come from? And are you already starting with a definition that would exclude?

01:18:37

Anything else is even being considered a baptism Yeah, and what's funny is I love the phrase improper but not invalid.

01:18:44

I I may I may uh, Because that's what I was trying to say Is is i'm not invalidating millions of baptisms.

01:18:52

I am saying they were improperly right Administered and so that that's helpful. Um, and and and I think i've said it that way before but you you clarified it reminded me um, but here here's here's another like Maybe maybe kind of put a bow on this when we when we think about that question of improper you mentioned

01:19:11

Several times in your conversation about whether or not they were sprinkled or poured or immersed That's not even my concern

01:19:18

And and I know and I know as a baptist people might think it is like oh He he just cares whether the water came to here the water came to here, right?

01:19:25

That's not it It's the it's the it's the recipient It's not the because the didache and i'm a huge fan of the didache.

01:19:32

I teach on it a lot I I know it's not scripture, but I talk about hey, here's here's an early source, right?

01:19:38

And the didache says we're gonna we're gonna baptize and in living water If it's available, but if it's not we'll we'll you know in still water and we want it to be cold

01:19:47

You know like like so like they had all these modes and they said but if that's not available we can pour

01:19:54

Three times once in the name of the father and the son the holy spirit so I understand the the modes as not being the the focus as much as the

01:20:04

Recipient as much as the the person receiving it and as I said I hope that people listening to this hear me when

01:20:10

I say I am not in any way saying my my my brethren are not My brethren, you know that my brethren the presbyterian church or whatever i'm saying for our particular

01:20:19

Church, and and I think this has been consistent in baptist churches That's why I brought up the fact that you you were in a baptist church that that that did this.

01:20:26

Um, Consistently historically baptists. It's kind of what defined us We defined ourselves by being baptized as believers the first and I know we're not anabaptists

01:20:38

So please what i'm about to say could get me kicked out of all reform conversations, but The anabaptists they poured

01:20:47

But they poured on believers that the first the first person to be baptized if I remember correctly

01:20:52

It was I think maybe it's conrad grables, but it was one of the it was one of the early anabaptists They poured water

01:20:59

Because that was what they that was their understanding of baptism But it was it was him receiving it as a believer.

01:21:04

That was what made it different. It wasn't the mode It was the recipient and so You know that that that and again,

01:21:12

I know we're not anabaptists I know the 1689 and the 1644 which is the one we hold to explicitly, you know, we're not 44 is even a little stronger

01:21:20

I think on this point But it is because because it was the first baptist confession to sort of make that break. We are not them

01:21:26

And I get that so man, I love this conversation. And like I said, we could go on all day

01:21:32

I'm, just thankful that you were willing to come on today and spend an hour and a half with me and and and you're you're you're a brother and you're an educated brother and i'm so thankful for that and i'm thankful for to be able to just Pick your brain and let people hear us talk because this is how godly people should talk about this

01:21:52

This is how the conversation goes with my brother in christ Who is a presbyterian we've sat in his office and had these very conversations and we love each other beforehand

01:22:00

We love each other after if we disagree We we we still watch each other's kids and we still you know what

01:22:06

I mean like his kids took karate from me, you know There's this whole relationship that we're able to have even in disagreement.

01:22:12

We're not trying to drown each other. Yeah Yeah, not yet Right, but but and that's what

01:22:18

I what I point to I said, you know My our baptist ancestors fought a battle for something and some of them died for this battle

01:22:27

And so and so there's still something worth standing for and i'm not saying you're not i'm saying

01:22:33

I think we all are as baptists We're standing we're saying there's something here worth Standing for and that's what we believe is the truth of what the scripture says

01:22:42

So i'll give you a final thought and then we're going to begin to draw up to a close. Yeah, so I I guess if I just on this not the diehard topic, but on this topic, right?

01:22:52

Um, I think oftentimes we can banty about this term of you know charity When really what someone is trying to that this isn't you but when so what someone's trying to do is get around the scriptures, right?

01:23:03

Love is love man. Just do what you want to do. No, we have to have a a Strong that has to be our standard we go to the scriptures and charity looks like Applying that scripture faithfully to another person for their good to the glory of god.

01:23:16

That is what is truly charitable but I don't think that it ought to if somebody's accepted by christ

01:23:26

I can't see a good reason why I would not and now i'm not an elder you have to deal with this

01:23:32

I don't i'm not a deacon. I don't have to deal with this you do I can Go off on all kinds of thoughts that are really great in my brain and they mean nothing to anyone's real world experience yours does

01:23:43

And so that's a heavy weight that you bear in doing this and wanting to do so faithfully before god

01:23:48

But but I would have a hard time barring somebody from fellowship

01:23:54

Who is accepted? By christ and has been covered by the by the blood of christ. I don't think that the fact that they that They received something that is true yet Invalidly ought to be a bar to christian fellowship uh, and I don't think it ought to be a bar to That if they're good christian people

01:24:19

And they come to your church knowing what your church teaches and they agree to submit to the authorities at that church

01:24:25

And they agree to not cause contention over this and they agree to sit And learn and be helpful and serve in the ways that they can serve which would essentially be everything that's not teaching uh

01:24:36

Why not? Why couldn't they be a deacon a deacon's job is not to teach a deacon's job is to serve and an opc person can do

01:24:43

That just as well as a baptist now when it comes to teaching obviously That would be a different issue because in order to teach at this church

01:24:52

The church's constitution says you have to believe these things you don't but Come to the lord come to the people of the lord.

01:25:00

Enjoy fellowship with one another don't be contentious or divisive And let's grow together in christ and he'll sort it out

01:25:08

Yep, and like I said, it's it's uh, it's definitely not an easy not an easy topic It's something that and and every every session of elders or group of elders, whatever they call themselves

01:25:18

I don't know what you guys your your elders call Have to have to Come to conclusions stand on their convictions and be willing to have those real world conversations

01:25:27

Like you just said and they are they are very uh, very difficult sometimes but by god's grace

01:25:33

Uh, he's building his church and uh, and we know that it won't fail so yep. Amen trust that well eric

01:25:40

Thanks again, man. Again. I appreciate you, uh taking time away from your family. I know today's your day off So I hope you still have a good day to spend with them and I hope they enjoy seeing you uh, take me to task about die hard I I Yeah, I know where my wife stands and uh,

01:25:56

I wouldn't let my kids watch that filth so Oh, well, there you go. Well, I yeah, there you go

01:26:01

Well, my brother thank you again for giving me the time this morning i'm gonna be i'm gonna post this a little while and we'll

01:26:06

Be able to share it and we'll see if people agree with us or disagree with us on that topic so thanks again, is there anything you want to point people to uh, you

01:26:15

Anything that you do or want people to see or anything? Okay. All right. No, don't watch conversations with the calvinist

01:26:23

All right. Well, thank you Well guys, thanks again for being a part of conversation with the calvinist today. I want to again remind you that we have our

01:26:31

Youtube pages you can get to simply by going to calvinistpodcast .com You can send us emails at calvinistpodcast at gmail .com

01:26:37

And if you have a question that you would like for me to address on a future episode send it to that email or You can send it to me through twitter at your calvinist

01:26:46

I want to thank you again for listening to conversations with the calvinist My name is keith foskey and i've been your calvinist.