March 30, 2020 Show with Rev. Geoff Thomas on “Singing in the Church”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 30th day of March 2020.

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You know, the only thing better than having Reverend Jeff Thomas on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is having him on two days in a row, and we are going to be interviewing

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Reverend Thomas, God willing, today, March 30th, and tomorrow, Tuesday, March 31st.

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And I am so thrilled to have him back. He is one of my favorite guests of all time, as well as one of my favorite preachers of all time.

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He is, or should I say, was, the pastor at Alfred Place Baptist Church of Aberystwyth, Wales, for over half a century.

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And he is well known to Banner of Truth supporters for being a prolific writer and wonderful conference speaker.

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And he is going to be speaking today on the theme,

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Singing in the Church, and God willing, tomorrow, he is going to be speaking on the theme, Real Evangelism.

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But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Reverend Jeff Thomas. Thank you very much,

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Chris. It's a privilege and honor that you should ask me and say such nice things about me.

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You don't know me. Well, I know you well enough. And I know that you're an excellent guest and an excellent preacher.

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And why don't you, for the sake of our listeners who are discovering you for the first time, why don't you let our listeners know about Alfred Place Baptist Church in Aberystwyth, Wales, where you served as the under -shepherd, the pastor, for half a century.

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And now, after your retirement, your grandson is pastoring there. Yeah. Yes, that's right.

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And it was possible to tune in and watch him. As you know, there are no services in the

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United Kingdom these days. On Sundays, we can't gather together. We have to keep a yard apart from everyone else.

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And so we can watch him preaching online. And he's a fine preacher.

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He does well. And he's raising three little boys in the same parsonage where I raised three little girls.

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That was 50 years. And one of those little girls is his mother. And I had, yeah,

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I cut my teeth and learned my trade. And I have many regrets, of course, and many blessings to thank

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God for. I suppose the greatest blessing was the number of men who went into the ministry, about 32.

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Somebody called it at an induction service recently that it's a conveyor belt into the ministry of students.

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I had my own little seminary there, my own log cabin in Aberystwyth. And those men are preaching the gospel all over the world.

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I suppose the most famous in America is Derrick Thomas. Oh, yeah.

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He was with me in the months for a year, and then he became a Presbyterian.

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That's a shame, isn't it? He was one of the pastors in Mississippi for a while, correct?

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First Presbyterian in Jackson, Mississippi? That's right, yes. He went there, and then it's

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South Carolina that he is now, isn't it? In Thornwell's old pulpit.

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Yes, I've interviewed him a number of times and always find it a joy. Yes, yes, yes.

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Well, if anybody wants to find out more about Alfred Place Baptist Church, especially if you live in the

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Aberystwyth, Wales area, or if you're going to be vacationing there, or you have family, friends, and loved ones there,

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I know that we have listeners not only in Wales generally, but we do have listeners in Aberystwyth.

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So if you'd like to find out more about that church, go to alfredplacechurch .org .uk.

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alfredplacechurch .org .uk. We have a big conference every August, but this year it's had to be canceled.

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So it'll be strange. All the family get together. Next year it's going to be the second week of August, as usual, and Sinclair Ferguson is the main speaker that week.

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That's a good time for Americans to come across, because we find such profit from Sinclair's ministry.

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Yes, and I'm sure every regenerate person does, who has the privilege of ever hearing him.

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He is absolutely extraordinary. Not only with his gifts behind the pulpit, like you, but also in his writing.

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Sometimes the two don't go hand -in -hand, but with both you and Sinclair, they definitely do.

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Oh, come on now, you flatterer. Believe me,

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I wouldn't have had you on two days in a row if I was only flattering you. Why don't you also tell our listeners, who may be unfamiliar with Banner of Truth, something about that ministry, since you have written for them and you also speak quite often at their conferences.

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Yes, well, it's been going on for 65 years. Ian Murray, the great gift to the

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Church, the great biographer, the man with insight, who combines a number of strands, confessional

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Christianity, a belief in revival, a belief in the local church, a longing to God, through prayer, that God would come and bless and revive the work.

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The great biographer, there was Boswell to Johnson, and he was that in his role to Dr.

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Lloyd -Jones and wrote those two magnificent biographies of Dr.

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Martin Lloyd -Jones. So Ian Murray is a wonderful gift and he's been my mentor and I've learned so much from him.

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And he's gathered a group of men around him, and though now he's in his mid to late 80s, he's still writing, and the men that he has invited to continue the editorial and the book choosing of work of the

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Banner of Truth, they continue the same high standards and the same high beliefs, and that has had an enormous influence over the last 60 to 70 years.

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Amen. Well, one thing that is good to know about Banner of Truth and another one of my favorite publishers,

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Solid Ground Christian Books, is that you know that whatever you buy from them will certainly be theologically sound and you're never going to pick up something that is aberrant or anything like that.

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And unfortunately you can't say that necessarily about all Reformed publishers, because there are men who identify themselves as Reformed today who have strayed into,

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I think, sometimes aberrant and bizarre teaching, but we thank God that there are still faithful, trustworthy men writing for Banner of Truth and Solid Ground Christian Books and Reformation Heritage Books and some other fine publishers.

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Banneroftruth .org is the website for Banner of Truth for those of you who want to look up that information.

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Well, the theme that you wanted to speak on for our first interview of our two -day interview with you, or two days' worth of interviews,

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I should say, with you, is singing in the church, singing in the church.

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Singing in the church is something that is not only beautiful and glorious and wonderful, but it's also something that sadly is a topic of division, of great division and even hostility in the body of Christ.

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The church is even split over how and what one sings in the church.

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There's not, to my knowledge, any church that doesn't believe in singing at all. There have been in history people who were opposed to singing, strangely, even though it's a clear command in the

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New Testament. But why did you want to pick this subject in particular? Well, I have been involved as a pastor in a university town with an intervarsity group at a local university, and their method of praise and singing, and my own congregation then, which is quite different in its use of a fine hymn book, something like the

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Trinity Hymnal, Grace Hymns, and the contrast and the questions people ask, why have you gone down a certain route in your choice of hymns and hymnody and not done this other way which is so very popular?

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And I've been to a number of fraternals recently in which we've talked about it together, and I put some thoughts together.

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And so I thought it would be useful to rehearse these things and to listen to any questions that come in and try to answer them.

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So that's why, Chris. Why do you think that singing is so very important?

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Many of us who perhaps have less than spectacular voices, when we're in the worship service, sometimes we just mumble those hymns and songs quietly.

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Sometimes we're sitting near someone that we wish was doing that.

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But then, of course, you have those who are gifted, belting out these beautiful hymns and just adding to the whole atmosphere of the worship.

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But to those of our listeners who might think that singing is a more trivial matter, and that would probably be a minority today because there are many churches in the modern age that dominate their worship services with singing and perhaps taps to an excess where they leave far less time for the actual sermon, the preaching of the

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Word. But why is this such an important thing? Well, of course, you have one of the biggest books in the

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Scriptures, the Book of Psalms, which is all to do with the communication personally, individually, to Almighty God.

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You have the example of the Lord Jesus Christ who, after preaching the greatest sermon and praying the greatest prayer, goes out from the upper room with his disciples and they sing a psalm together.

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He and their voices blend together. And then Paul talks about singing in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs as one of the marks of being filled with the

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Holy Spirit. Islam has no singing.

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Hinduism has no singing at all.

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I did not realize either of those things. I guess in Islam, I'm assuming, there must be one person at least who sings at some point because you have those famous recordings that we've all heard of somebody chanting or singing in Arabic over a microphone or a loudspeaker,

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I should say. Yes, that's right, calling the faithful to prayer from the minaret.

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Yes, but not all the men and women and the children together are all singing as we do.

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That's unique. It's like our prayer meetings. A girl who came out of Islam and came to know

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Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior, one of the things that struck her most when she was invited to a group of praying

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Christians, she'd never heard anyone pray like that. It was totally moving and convicting that they knew

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God and could speak to Him instead of reciting the prayers at certain times of the day that they repeat.

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Singing is there. The picture that you have in Heaven in the book of Revelation, you have again the praise and the instruments that they play to accompany their singing in Heaven.

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There is a biblical foundation for it.

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And then you have the early church. They sang psalms and chanted their psalms right through to the

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Reformation. And then Luther wrote hymns like A Mighty Fortress is

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Our God. There's the hymn of Calvin that we sing about the sure

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Redeemer that Jesus Christ is. And the Puritan period then, hymns began to be written and Keech and Watts developed those things.

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And they were quickly taken up by the church. And the 18th century was a great period where you had the most fabulous, inspired poets who had such a grasp of cadence and vocabulary and balance and picture and full of pathos, like Charles Wesley and Isaac Watts and Toplady.

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And that became then the foundation on which hymnody developed and went round the world.

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Now, one text that is very interesting, a lot of people might gloss over this and not realize that there is something a little different in this text that refers to singing.

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But I'm speaking of Ephesians 5, verse 19. Most of the translations, not all, but most, including the

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New American Standard Bible, including the King James Version and the

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New King James Version, and the New International Version, most with few exceptions, render the wording of this as speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the

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Lord. Speaking to one another. It doesn't say, although some of the translations say sing or singing, but most of them say speaking to one another.

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Is there something significant about saying it that way? And also, the thing that's interesting is that although we rightly view our worship as having an audience of one, meaning

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God, at the same time, while we are worshipping God, this text says that we are speaking to one another.

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Yes. It's corporate.

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Certainly, that's the emphasis, addressing one another, maybe the best way.

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That's the ESV rendering of it. Is that so? Yes, addressing one another in these, well, the exclusive psalms in this way, that is three categories of psalms.

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We love to sing the psalms, but do not feel you can restrict it in that way to then three kinds of psalms.

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But we testify to one another in the presence of God. As we speak to God, we are also conscious that we are part of this worshipping group and that we are affirming the

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Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures.

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We are affirming how sweet the name of Jesus sounds in a believer's ear.

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We are saying that's my testimony. I want you to know, you talked about listening to people around you singing and there is something about an old saint who takes his glasses off and he knows the words inside out and he just sings from his heart.

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Amen. So I think there is so much there in the whole history of hymnody and I tried in my years in Aberystwyth to teach the congregation 400 hymns that we sang so that 8 a

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Sunday for 50 Sundays so that we rarely repeated a hymn and they grew to love them and to sing them and we found new tunes.

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You know the British hymn books have just got the words and so it's very easy to introduce then some of the modern hymns and some

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Welsh hymns that aren't so well known except to us in Wales and to bring them in.

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I did that. But over the last 40 years there's been this shift now and a number of factors.

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There's been a desire to attract youth and appeal to youth. What do young people like to sing?

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And that's been a very important question for some people and not for me. And then there have been

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Pentecostal influences the kinds of singing that you see on religious television and the baby boomer factor then of young people alienated new converts,

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Jesus people and church growth concerns then emphasizing the importance of numerical growth and so that the music should be alluring and attractive to those people.

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And that came into America and into Britain and it was allied to Afro -American emphases and the wonderful jazz and harmonies that they have brought into world music.

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And then there have been British hymn writers too that have written well and we've added their tunes and Hail Song in Australia then a very different type of hymnody they've brought in and all these factors have certainly come in and so you have the kind of hymn singing that is seen today and its hallmark is contemporary language and a focus on worshippers' feelings.

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It is essentially the music of the affections and there are the appeals in it to diverse groups there's the appeal to the musically talented you say

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Chris you're not amongst that group but there are people and oh come and sing come and bring your instruments with you and that appeals to them and then oh to the lonely and to the teenagers of course not so much to theological professors or bank managers or the police but to those groups people focus on them not so much to old people and that has had an enormous influence then in the diversity and the newness of much

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Christian hymn singing so that extended periods of a church service are given over to music and that becomes a common feature almost half the time that many worshippers gather together is spent in singing and there are physical actions then that often accompany the songs

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Hansa raised and it tends to be a relaxed time of enthusiastic informality which is led from the front and that's encouraged and that is the sort of norm that people expect when they go to conferences you have it now in the famous Keswick convention in England you have two committees there and one committee then they look after the pulpit and they choose the speakers and then another committee they're in charge of the music and the singing and each one is very cautious about the other we won't criticize you if you don't criticize us they are saying in effect to one another and so you have this contrast between a very good, fine preaching ministries and then this kind of modern singing with the bongo drums and the bass guitars and the worship leaders because of course sophisticated provision of electronic technology has come in when

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I went to Russia that was one of the striking features we went to some of the small churches there maybe there would be 25 people and we would be a visiting group and the group that I went with of Russians they brought in all this equipment microphones and loudspeakers and amplifiers and spent half an hour fitting it all up just to speak to and lead to 25 people because it is so ingrained in them now that all that equipment is absolutely essential for the modern praise of God wow it's interesting because of the

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Russian the disappearance of the hymn book a hymn book is a very wonderful thing it's divided up in its various sections you have the triune majesty of God and then you have the morning hymns and the evening hymns and then you go on to the personal work of Christ and His arrival in the world

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Christmastime and then His life and His sufferings and His resurrection and 200 hymns and then you go on to the

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Holy Spirit I remember Dr. Lloyd -Jones in a discussion on this at a conference in Wales and he picked up a hymn book and he said how many hymns are here on the

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Holy Spirit and he said oh 28 and how many hymns are there on Jesus Christ and he counted up oh 190 just about right he said just correct to have that sort of emphasis in our praise on the

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Lord Jesus Christ and then it goes on then of course the Lord's Day and then the the work of the church and baptism the

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Lord's Supper and then sanctification adoption union with Christ the second coming of Christ the eternal state and you have a little systematic theology in a hymn book and when we don't have any hymn books any longer when a person doesn't refer to them and read them in personal times of devotion it seems to me you are losing a lot because hymns bring our affections to the great doctrines of the faith just like Bunyan in Pilgrim's Progress through wonderful personalities brought our feelings to the great truths that are found in the

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Westminster and the 1689 Confession and the Heidelberg Catechism hymns just can elevate our hearts and bring a certain warmth the response after a sermon is sung of an appropriate hymn when you preach from the cross and then you sing together one of the greatest of all hymns when

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I survey the wondrous cross it's a fitting climax to that act of worship let's say if you disagree with your own pastor over something about singing and music in the church or perhaps you're even a pastor and you disagree with your fellow elders or your congregation or your denomination over this subject in some way we would understand that you would want to remain anonymous but if it's a general question please give us at least your first name, city and state and country of residence and by the way it is interesting before I go to the break that you were saying that when you visited

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Russia they had all this elaborate equipment they were setting up when in Russia where Russian Orthodoxy dominates they have a strictly a cappella in Russia and it's interesting that the modern church

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I don't know if it's a conscious rebellion against that or I wonder but my question for you before we go to the break that you can answer when we return to the break is could you please list some basic elements even though our hymnody is very diverse and should be in fact even the psalms are diverse can you give us some basic elements that every good song of praise to our

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Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ should contain a minimal number of basic elements that should be present and you can answer that when we come back from our first break and don't go away we'll be right back with Reverend Jeff Thomas and singing in the church right after these messages from our sponsors

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Yes, true We are now back from our break obviously and we are now entering into the next segment of our interview and before the break as you may remember

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Reverend Thomas I asked you what would be some basic elements that should exist in every

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Song of Praise to Christ even though we have great diversity and should have great diversity in our singing because even the

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Psalms the God -breathed song book in the Old Testament even those Psalms are very diverse so obviously our modern hymns of praise should be no less diverse but if you could tell us what the commonality should be

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Right Well there's a two -fold purpose the big picture the two -fold purpose of singing is one to glorify

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God and two to edify one another those aspects should structure our whole approach to the hymns that we sing the hymns that we judge by the biblical nature of their words and then whether the music enhances and serves what the hymn is saying so that would be the basic structure and then the elements of adoration of God confession of our sins to Him Jesus has told us we have to pray and we say forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors and then thanksgiving for all the blessings there should be always hymns of thanksgiving present when all thy mercies oh my

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God my rising soul surveys transported with a view I'm lost in wonder love and praise and then there should be then a yearning and a longing a longing to know

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God better to serve Him better to view the future with hope and anticipation and the form of such hymns then is important and the accompaniment should just be that it should bring a new tune to us

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I remember once on a Monday morning in Westminster Seminary in 1962

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I was walking down the corridor and who came walking towards me but Professor John Murray and he stopped how are you

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Mr. Thomas he said that's always how he referred to me Mr. Thomas how are you he said you're a

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Welshman aren't you I said yes and you love singing Welshmen love singing yes do you know he said

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I learned a new tune yesterday oh I did enjoy it and with his quavering old voice standing in the corridor he sung a metrical psalm to me to a tune he'd learned the day before it showed for me his humility and his sense of praise and the reality the way he entered into worship and his openness to discover then new melodies to express the great old truths of the of the gospel and so those would be the the elements acts a adoration c confession t thanksgiving s supplication the familiar outline of prayer and that should be the basis of our praise hymns should be characterized by a measure of assurance that we do believe the promises that God makes to the very chief of sinners who trusts in the

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Savior if our trust if our faith in him is as thin as a spider's thread

46:13

Chris if that faith is joined to Jesus Christ that can't be broken that will take us across the lake of fire that will take us across the bottomless pit that will present us faultless before him in in that great day and so assurance and confidence in the mercy of God to sinners that should be there and that comes to us then through the person and work of Jesus Christ and our way to fill our our way hymnology and the great hymns they'll all be centered they'll be trinitarian there'll be a verse like many of them are on the

47:09

Father then the Son and then the Holy Spirit we are unashamedly trinitarian in our in our doxology and there also will be an element of confession oh what poor

47:27

Christians we are we feel after many years of following him and serving him that we are just beginning just beginning to become

47:39

Christians and just beginning to realize the great cost of our redemption and what the

47:48

Savior did to achieve that and so a great hymn like Hallelujah what a

47:56

Savior lifted up was he to die it is finished was his cry now in heaven exalted high

48:04

Hallelujah what a Savior hymns that focus on the glorious accomplishments and achievements of Jesus Christ that we are saved not by our accomplishments not by what we've done we are not singing on Sundays somewhere in my youth or childhood

48:27

I must have done something good that's okay for the sound of music and Maria there we are not singing that we're singing it's all because of what he did it's all because of Christ that we are what we are that we've come so far that we're not in the flames of hell shrieking in agony but we're in church we're surrounded by the people we want to spend eternity with and we're singing the praises of the

48:58

Christ who's brought us there and has kept us goodness and mercy have followed us all the days of our lives and we'll dwell in the house of the

49:07

Lord forever and that note of assurance should accompany the triune doxological emphases of all great hymns and we will often sing make this poor self grow less and less let's love him more let's serve him more let's give more and more take my life and let it be consecrated

49:42

Lord to thee those are the characteristics of of all true hymns we have a question from Christopher in Suffolk County Long Island New York he asks have you ever heard of the

49:57

Gadsby hymnal that's G -A -D as in David S -B -Y I encountered it a number of years ago at a bible conference and noticed that they began to adopt it and used it for at least several years in a row

50:11

I thoroughly enjoyed it and found the hymns rich with the doctrines of sovereign grace

50:17

I was wondering if you are aware of this hymnal and if you appreciate it as much as I do this is obviously the hymnal by the 18th and 19th century

50:28

English Baptist pastor William Gadsby yes that's right there's a wonderful biography of him that my friend

50:35

Ben Ramsbottom has written and it's just it's extraordinary that with his high

50:43

Calvinism that he had such success in his evangelism because he loved

50:54

Jesus Christ and preached about Jesus Christ and hemmed in sinners so that their only hope was in entrusting themselves to the

51:06

Son of God Jesus Christ for time and eternity and that was the driving force of this most eloquent of preachers and the hymn book of course is used in the gospel standard denomination of Baptist to this day and my hymn book which is now out of print that we used for 45 years in grace hymns selected many of the greatest of those hymns it is most interesting and useful and it should accompany our devotions say we had value vision and we can read a prayer that the battle of truth is brought out in that book and then we should have

52:02

Gatsby's hymnal or Trinity hymnal or Christian hymns and they are in the same theocentric tradition of fine experiential hymnody and you mentioned before grace hymns as well fine poetry yes and you before mentioned grace hymns as well that's the hymnal of Grace Community Church in California where John MacArthur serves as a pastor right right yeah

52:40

Philip Webb who was a professional opera singer helped develop that hymnal and well thank you very much for that excellent question

52:54

Christopher you have a great name and I am also from originally from Suffolk County Long Island New York keep listening to the program and keep spreading the word about it on Long Island and everywhere else that you may happen to have contact we're going to our middle break right now our midway break which is longer than other breaks so we ask of you to be patient because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

53:20

FM in Lake City Florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they by FCC regulations have to localize

53:28

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54:19

chrisarnson at gmail .com don't go away we're going to be right back after these messages from James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough you know

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I'm so delighted I discovered Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding no radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but I'll give it a shot

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For more details on Post Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding go to PTLBibleRebinding .com

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Chris Sorensen host of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio here I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years his name is

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Dan Buttafuoco Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind

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Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself recently he wrote a book titled

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Consider the Evidence for the Bible Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword

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Dan also has a master's degree in theology Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states he represents many

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Christians in serious injury matters all over the country Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer he wrote the test for the

56:46

National Board of Trial Advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states in Illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the states history in New York his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal if you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state

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I recommend that you call Dan consultations are free there is no fee unless you win

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Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com

57:35

that's chrisarnson at gmail .com the coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life bringing so many uncertainties when will it end why do disasters like this happen how do we deal with anxiety fear and the like well join us each

57:58

Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host Chris Arnson and Pastor Joe Jacowicz as they explore

58:05

God's word for answers to this and other of life's related issues tune in at firstloveradio .org

58:14

that's firstloveradio .org each Friday at 1pm

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01:10:17

Before we return to Reverend Jeff Thomas, the pastor emeritus of Alfred Place Baptist Church in Aberystwyth, Wales, where he served as the undershepherd for over half a century, before we return to our discussion on singing in the church,

01:10:36

I just have a couple of announcements to make. First of all, until we hear otherwise, as far as we know, we are still going to be having the next spring

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to 2 p .m. And God willing, we are still having as our guest speaker for the very first time

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God willing, if there is no ban on public gatherings over 10 people in May, or should

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I say specifically May 29th. So I hope that all of you who are men in ministry leadership and are able to get to Carlisle, Pennsylvania on May 29th,

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I hope that you register for this free event, where not only will you hear Dr. Mbewe preach for free, you will also be fed a sumptuous meal by the

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Bible -believing church, wherever it is that you live, and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, you are living in rebellion against God.

01:16:07

There is no such thing as a lone wolf, maverick Christian in the New Testament who is not under the authority of local elders in a local

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Bible -believing church, who just floats around from church to church, visiting churches, or going to no church at all, thinking that all they need is their own brain and the

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Bible alone in the woods or something. This is not a biblical concept, and you're living in rebellion against God if you're not at least prayerfully looking for a

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Bible -believing church. And if you need help finding one, I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world, including

01:16:43

Alfred Place Baptist Church in Aberystwyth, Wales. I have helped people in our audience from all over the planet find churches near them that they have visited and joined.

01:16:53

Sometimes they have visited these churches while they were on vacation, and sometimes they have referred these churches to friends, family, and loved ones who are without a church home wherever it is they live.

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So please, if you need help finding a church, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:17:11

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Reverend Jeff Thomas about singing in the church, and that email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:17:27

Reverend Thomas, what do you think about something that I said earlier?

01:17:34

There are churches that I believe elevate the role of singing too highly in the corporate worship because they wind up shaving down very often the time allotted to the actual preaching of the

01:17:53

Word of God, which I believe is the most important element of the gathered corporate worship.

01:18:00

Do you agree with me on that, that we have to be careful as much as singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs is commanded and as glorious and vital as it is that we can overdo it?

01:18:16

Yes, I'm with you 100 % on that.

01:18:23

I think there is an important place for singing.

01:18:35

There is a biblical ground for it. But at the same time, for 45 minutes a congregation should be standing and singing.

01:18:51

The edge has gone off. They are weary then by the time you get up and start to preach.

01:19:00

I had a friend of mine, and he's very blunt and straightforward, and he's a wonderfully gifted man and very much in demand.

01:19:12

So he would go along now to, say, an intervarsity group or a campus crusade group at a university, and he'd look for the leader, and he'd say,

01:19:22

Right, you can have three, he said. You can have three hymns.

01:19:30

You can have two hymns and a reading. You can have a hymn, a reading, and a prayer.

01:19:35

You can have three, and then I'm up on my feet, and I'm preaching. I've got so much to do.

01:19:44

I can't sit here for 45 minutes and listen to you singing.

01:19:51

After three, I'm preaching, and then after I go, you can stay and sing as long as you want to.

01:20:01

You can just have three, he says. And I think that's very interesting.

01:20:07

We say three, don't we? After a third hymn, then we'll preach the word.

01:20:14

It'll be a hymn that we'll lead. We'll sing a hymn, Break thou the bread of life, dear

01:20:20

Lord, to me, As thou didst break the loaves beside the sea. We'll sing a hymn in preparation for the word that we're going to hear, and we'll also have a reading and a prayer and the notices.

01:20:33

We'll have those things, but then we'll preach. So after half an hour, we're up on our feet.

01:20:38

But this business of extensive hymnody, and then after we've preached, handing the service back over to what are called worship leaders, who then comment on what they've heard, and then we'll sing, and then they'll say, we'll repeat it, and we'll repeat it.

01:21:05

And the meeting still goes on, I'm afraid. I feel that that is an abuse of hymnody.

01:21:16

And I was in a famous church, which has now gone from the wonderful foundations that were laid for over 30 years by the famous minister that was there, and now it's gone over to a lot of singing.

01:21:34

And two middle -aged men came in to that church, and I noticed them, and they didn't sing any of the hymns, and they were looking around all the time, and they didn't stay.

01:21:47

After about 20 minutes, they went out. They lost them. There was nothing done to group them and minister to those men, and that was so very sad.

01:22:06

We need to show the congregation that sun worship is not the main means by which saved sinners experience

01:22:17

God. They experience Him when Jesus Christ's beauty and glorious achievements and His teaching and His presence there with them and His willingness to save them, when that is presented to them, that is what

01:22:45

God always blesses, because the Holy Spirit loves to exalt

01:22:53

Jesus Christ by the sanctification of Christians and the saving of the lost.

01:23:01

And it's not by singing. You might have a good thing and enjoy it, but you may not enjoy singing.

01:23:09

But what you do need is to hear of the love of God in Jesus Christ.

01:23:18

Amen. We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who asks,

01:23:24

I know that this is not a hard and fast biblical rule, but I find great wisdom in the churches that I have attended who have, after a very compelling, heart -searching message, refrained from having a final hymn sung after the sermon.

01:23:45

Yeah. So you agree with that as well? Well, I remember when Professor Jay Adams came to our church in Aberystwyth and he preached, or as fine a message as I've heard a man preach, and he didn't want a hymn at the end.

01:24:09

He wanted the power of that word to remain there. He was afraid it might be dissipated by people being led away from the word that he had nailed to their consciences.

01:24:29

So, yeah, when you preach in the open air, you don't sing.

01:24:39

You preach and you're standing there in your naked helplessness.

01:24:46

I remember there was one occasion when I was standing on the promenade. The sea behind me, a few seagulls, people walking up and down, and I had such a help in preaching the word of God.

01:24:59

I felt a saving power here tonight. After I finished,

01:25:06

I prayed that God would, a brief prayer of blessing. A year later, I was in the

01:25:12

Dudley Convention in the Midlands, and a man came on to me and introduced himself to me and spoke about the message

01:25:19

I'd just preached. He said, you know, two weeks ago, I was preaching in a church not far away, and I met a young woman there.

01:25:28

She said, oh, she'd only been a Christian a year. I said, oh, when were you converted? She said, well, it was very strange.

01:25:35

I was in Aberystwyth, and I was walking along the promenade, and I saw a group of people, and the man was preaching.

01:25:42

And I listened, and I was converted that night. And I've always put those two events.

01:25:51

Praise God. There was no singing at the end. We left them with a

01:25:58

Christ who was willing to accept and receive a sinner who came to him, just as she was.

01:26:08

So, yes, I think you can have some flexibility there, and it isn't necessary for the service always to end, but many times a hymn can fittingly be the expression of response.

01:26:32

You can sing, take my life and let it be consecrated, because you are moved by what you've heard of Jesus Christ, and that articulates.

01:26:41

I heard the voice of Jesus say, come unto me and rest. Lay down, thou weary one, lay down thy head upon my...

01:26:48

I came to Jesus as I was, weary and worn and sad, found in him a dwelling place, and he has made me glad.

01:26:56

And that is, again, such a fitting response to the invitation of the gospel.

01:27:02

So, let's be flexible about those things. Amen. And we're going to go to our final break.

01:27:08

It's going to be much more brief than the last break. So, if you have a question that you want to ask of Reverend Jeff Thomas, do it quickly, because we're going to be over before you know it.

01:27:19

He is returning tomorrow to discuss another topic, real evangelism.

01:27:25

But if you want to ask a question about singing in the church, please send in a question immediately to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:27:35

Don't go away. We'll be right back with the final segment of our interview with Jeff Thomas right after these messages from our sponsors.

01:27:44

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

01:28:06

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

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New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

01:28:25

Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

01:28:30

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

01:28:37

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:28:44

That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:28:51

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:29:10

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Joe Bianchi, president of Calvi Press Publishing in Greenville, South Carolina, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jake Korn of Switzerland Community Church in Switzerland, Florida, and the

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01:31:02

The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life, bringing so many uncertainties.

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When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen? How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like?

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Well, join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron, with your host,

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Chris Arnzen, and Pastor Joe Jakowitz, as they explore God's Word for answers to this and other of life's related issues.

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Tune in at firstloveradio .org. That's firstloveradio .org.

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Each Friday at 1 p .m. Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern. That's Iron Sharpens Iron on firstloveradio .org.

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Fridays, 1 p .m. Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern, to hear what the Bible has to say about pandemics and how we should respond.

01:31:58

Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

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His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

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Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled

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Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

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Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

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He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

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He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. Currently, his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more and in approximately 10 different states.

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Dan Bonifuco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

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Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. This is

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Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:34:12

Lord Jesus Christ. And, of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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Listening to Christian radio can be a big gamble spiritually.

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01:36:33

Lynnbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lynnbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

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Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

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It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

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We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

01:37:01

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lynnbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

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Call Lynnbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit

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LynnbrookBaptist .org That's LynnbrookBaptist .org Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with about a half hour left is

01:37:28

Reverend Jeff Thomas who was pastor of Alfred Place Baptist Church in Everest with Wales for over half a century.

01:37:36

He is also very well known amongst Banner of Truth supporters as being a prolific writer and a frequent conference speaker for their conferences and the conferences of other faithfully reformed ministries.

01:37:51

And if you want to join us on the air with a question about singing in the church please do so immediately, we're running out of time.

01:38:00

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com is the email address and we have a listener that we haven't heard from in a while somebody who has been a frequent contributor to the program with questions that have always edified and enlightened and added much to the conversation.

01:38:17

We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland listening and Murray says,

01:38:24

After 30 years in the pathway as a believer I still feel awkward about hymns directed to the

01:38:31

Holy Spirit rather than just being about the Holy Spirit. What advice would

01:38:37

Jeff Thomas be able to give please? And he says, Just a quick note regarding Gadsby's hymns

01:38:43

I believe it includes the beautiful hymn Immortal Honours Rest on Jesus Head a hymn very dear to my heart and I would assume to Jeff Thomas too.

01:38:55

Yes indeed, oh I love that hymn of course Gadsby wrote that hymn and yes

01:39:00

I know it off by heart I can close my hymn book and take my glasses off and sing it with joy when that's announced.

01:39:11

I was visiting my daughter and preaching for her in her church and I had chosen it and the organist said to me

01:39:18

Three weeks running we've been asked to sing this hymn. So it's been rediscovered and sung mightily.

01:39:29

Now, hymns to the Holy Spirit I remember another

01:39:36

Murray, Professor John Murray and him saying that talking about communion with God you know there's the great

01:39:47

John Owen treaties communion with the Father and communion with the

01:39:54

Son and communion with the Holy Spirit that is you address them about particular aspects of the economy of redemption that they are more committed to than the other members the incarnation, that's the work of Christ the atonement on the cross and you speak to the

01:40:20

Lord Jesus and you express your thanks and worship for his dying love and the

01:40:27

Holy Spirit then yes you talk to him about his regeneration that he should come into your heart and life sometimes the sewers here in London are cluttered with the most awful stuff great bunks of it imagine us saying to the

01:40:51

Queen and Prince Philip and Prince Charles get your galoshes on and put your salweser on and here's a shovel and we'll get you down into the sewers to clean out all the rubbish of course we'd never do that there are men that do it and they do it properly and they do it well but I'm wanting to say the

01:41:18

Holy Spirit comes into our hearts that are far more foul than the effluent that clogs

01:41:28

London's sewers and he comes into these dark stinking hearts of ours and he takes up his residence his home there and he sanctifies and he purifies and he washes continually constantly and when we speak to the

01:41:49

Holy Spirit we tell him how awed we are at his pity and mercy that he should come into our lives and set up his home there in our hearts where every imagination is only evil continually and so I'm happy to sing a hymn to the

01:42:15

Holy Spirit to praise him and thank him I'm happy to speak

01:42:21

I do not believe that all prayer should be to the

01:42:28

Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit but I think that's a general pattern but when you pray to the members of the

01:42:43

Godhead you have communion with them individually read John Owen's wonderful work on this and that will help you to be more liberated in addressing

01:42:58

God in that way By the way, can you be more specific about what

01:43:04

John Owen wrote in regard to this subject because this is a fascinating subject because the scriptures seem very silent about approaching the

01:43:15

Holy Spirit alone without including the other members of the Godhead of course we would always in some way include the other members of the

01:43:22

Godhead but sometimes someone might especially in a charismatic or Pentecostal service address the

01:43:30

Holy Spirit alone in a song of praise or prayer and so on Yes I would feel in public prayer on the

01:43:47

Lord's Day it would be unacceptable that you would begin by addressing the

01:43:56

Holy Spirit you would speak to God wouldn't you and you would address Father, Son and Holy Spirit and then you would think about the work that they've done and you would try not to make it a summary of a book of systematic theology but that there would be your heart would be touched and moved but you would be conscious of the unending access you have to the indwelling

01:44:27

Holy Spirit and you would thank him for his willingness to come into such a wretched heart and life as yours and you would confess to him that you had grieved him too often that you had quenched his work within you and you would say sorry to him and you would communicate him to a person and no it can be abused but I think the persons of the

01:45:04

Godhead have distinctive roles the

01:45:09

Father alone sends the Son and sends the Holy Spirit the Savior alone enters the

01:45:17

Virgin's womb and makes atonement and tastes death the

01:45:22

Holy Spirit then comes ascent by the Father and Son and comes into our lives and quickens us and gives us a new birth and we are right to respond to them in that way

01:45:40

I wish I knew more of Owen to respond to you

01:45:47

Chris with that lovely question of yours but we can say we know these wonderful booksellers that you're talking about on the show who will be able to advise you how to get hold of Owen on communion with God Amen and don't forget solid -ground -books .com

01:46:08

and also cvbbs .com we have oh by the way

01:46:13

Murray thank you so much for joining our conversation again after a fairly long absence if I'm not mistaken and we look forward to hearing from you more frequently during the program and please keep spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in Kinross, Scotland and the

01:46:33

UK and beyond we have Johnny in Queens, New York who says some in our congregation are rather passive during the worship singing but are excited when a choir or a soloist is performing how can we encourage our brethren to focus on the worshiping of God and not just be moved when entertained oh what a good question yes oh

01:47:01

I it grieves me to look down from the pulpit and see individuals their lips are closed and all around them there are people singing and and they are not singing it speaks of a coldness of heart it testifies to an unregenerate soul we have to encourage them in every way

01:47:30

God accepts lisping, stammering tongues God accepts a croaky voice and someone who can't keep it tuned whereas then someone who sings like Pavarotti or Kiriya Takenawa and and can make the hairs on the back of your head stand on edge well what is that if they don't know the

01:48:03

Lord and if it's a performance you know that with regards to a preacher any hint of someone who is acting and is not reflecting the the the heart that is totally genuine is speaking words of truth then you think ah, he's putting it on this is an act and he's lost and you've lost him and if you're being slick and just rehearsing well known stories so let's be very very careful we don't become the actor and that the stirring music that a choir can sing you know you can be greatly stirred when

01:49:11

I was at a conference with you Chris in December in New York Foundations Conference to hear a performance of the

01:49:22

Messiah all those biblical words are always touched and moved by the gravity and passion and beauty of the melody and how allied to the words of Scripture it was and when it came to the

01:49:44

Alleluia Chorus the congregation stood as one man and we were singing in our hearts

01:49:54

King of Kings and Lord of Lords forever forever and he shall reign forever and ever hallelujah it was incredibly moving and I can just see how people were touched just by the beauty of the music and the grandeur of the performance those wonderful sopranos that were there that night and we had a bass singer well he looked like a heavyweight boxing champion the way he moved as he sang those hymns those words were very very moving but well a lisping stammering tongue will be a fragrance in heaven if it reflects a heart that's been renewed and a life that's been transformed by redeeming grace

01:50:53

Amen we have Cynthia from Findlay, Ohio who says may

01:51:02

I just mention that sometimes people do not sing because they are so overcome with emotion sometimes it is just hard to keep back the sobbing yeah yeah that can happen sometimes you are you're full up and singing a hymn after God has helped me to to preach a message

01:51:31

I I move my lips and I whisper the words but I haven't got the the power and the strength to sing them aloud after a few verses it comes back to me um one hymn, modern hymn that's touched me greatly is the power of the cross and I love to hear a congregation singing that that hymn because it was new to me a year or two ago when

01:52:07

I first heard it and learned it I was very stirred and yep that's true exactly what you say some hymns are so filled with the pathos of redeeming love that you are lost in wonder, love and praise amen, in fact the very first time

01:52:31

I heard a hymn in fact it was in New York City at a bible conference before the throne of God above, it was probably 11 or 12 years ago

01:52:44

I first heard that song sung, I began weeping uncontrollably and could not even sing along with these words and I just want to share the words of that hymn with the listeners before the throne of God above I have a strong and perfect plea a great high priest whose name is love whoever lives and pleads for me my name is graven on his hands, my name is written on his heart,

01:53:14

I know that while in heaven he stands no tongue can bid me thence depart when

01:53:21

Satan tempts me to despair and tells me of the guilt within, upward I look and see him there who made an end of all my sin, because the sinless savior died my sinful soul is counted free, for God the just is satisfied to look on him and pardon me, behold him there the risen lamb, the perfect spotless righteousness the great unchangeable

01:53:46

I am the king of glory and of grace one with himself I cannot die, my soul is purchased by his blood, my life is hid with Christ on high with Christ my savior and my

01:53:59

God, one with himself I cannot die, my soul is purchased by his blood, my life is hid with Christ on high, with Christ my savior and my

01:54:07

God that is such a beautiful and glorious and awesome hymn written a hundred years ago by Charlie Leader born in 1841 so and then that tune that so perfectly matches it has helped to elevate it and given it to a new generation all over the world, so wherever I go that hymn is loved and sung from the heart oh is it not, what a shame well it's there was a time in my life when

01:55:26

I had been raised in a denomination which was rather weak and insipid and I went to camp,

01:55:37

I'd been converted with a shallow understanding of all that Jesus was and what he had done, just a glimpse that I'd been forgiven because of the

01:55:50

Lamb of God and I I was in camp and the officers were speaking and they were speaking about somebody they called the doctor and that they they were students and young men and they were not the kind of men that are generally respectful and speak in words of awe, but they talked of this man and oh

01:56:18

I wanted to know more who was this man and a month later I noticed on the

01:56:24

Saturday night paper that Dr. Martyn Lloyd -Jones for that was the man, was preaching at the ordination service of a new

01:56:32

Presbyterian minister in town, so I got the train to Cardiff and I walked down Cathedral Road and I saw their memorial hall and I went in and was struck, every seat was taken, the men had suits and ties, the women wore hats and we sang we sang

01:56:52

Wesley we sang Top Lady we sang a great hymn, a debtor to mercy alone, of covenant mercy

01:57:01

I sing, nor fear with thy righteousness on my personal offering to bring, the wrath of a sin -hating

01:57:09

God with me can have nothing to do, my Saviour's obedience and blood, hide all my transgressions from view,

01:57:19

I was introduced to Top Lady and that great hymn, one day a congregation will gather in Aberystwyth to say goodbye,

01:57:30

I won't be there, my body will be there but I won't be there we'll sing the great hymns that I have chosen and that will be the ultimate hymn of praise, a debtor to mercy alone that is what

01:57:47

I'll say if God asks me why should I let you into my heaven and I'll say

01:57:55

Jesus, mercy Jesus mercy that is the only thing

01:58:03

I can say, the only grounds for my entry is because of God's mercy through Jesus Christ, my

01:58:10

Lord and that great hymn then sums up so powerfully all that great hymnody can do to stir and motivate and strengthen a

01:58:34

Christian's response to the gospel, we're hearing Billy Graham in 1954 in Wembley Stadium being very stirred,

01:58:44

Billy preaching in the power of the Holy Spirit in those days and he preached on I am the way and the truth and the life and 10 of us went back on the tube across London we sang blessed assurance and how great thou art on that trip to everybody in that compartment our response to a knowledge of Jesus Christ as our

01:59:11

Lord and Savior Amen, and folks, don't forget that the website for Alfred Place Baptist Church in Aberystwyth, Wales is alfredplacechurch .org

01:59:22

.uk alfredplacechurch .org .uk alfredplacechurch .org

01:59:27

.uk and the ministry of Banner of Truth for whom our guest writes and speaks banneroftruth .org

01:59:36

banneroftruth .org we look forward Reverend Thomas to you joining us again tomorrow on the subject

01:59:45

Real Evangelism Yes and I want to thank everybody who wrote in today and all who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater