December 12, 2018 Show with Dr. William Webster & Rev. David T. King on “The Lie of Rome that Sola Scriptura Was Invented by the Reformers”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 12th day of

December 2018.

And I am so delighted to have, for the very first time together

on an interview, I've interviewed both of these brothers in Christ and friends before, but

separately, and this is the first time that they have ever been interviewed at the same time anywhere.

And I'm speaking of my friends Dr. William Webster and Reverend David T. King.

Dr. William Webster is pastor of Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington.

He is the founder of Christian Resources and an author of a number of books, including the Banner of

Truth titles, The Church of Rome at the Bar of History, and Salvation, the Bible and

Roman Catholicism.

And also joining us is Reverend David T. King, who is an ordained minister having served in the

Presbyterian Church in America known as the OPCA and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church known as the OPC.

And he is the co -author with Dr. William Webster of the three -volume work, Holy Scripture, the

Ground and Pillar of Our Faith.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome both of you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. William Webster and

Reverend David T. King.

Thank you, Chris.

Yes, Chris, good to be with you.

Thank you.

And David, I don't mean any slight against our brother William Webster, but since it's been so long, I am

especially glad that you're on the show today because it's been quite a number of years, in fact, that the last time you

were on the program, I was still broadcasting out of Long Island, New York on WNYG Radio.

So it's been quite a while and it's just such a joy to have you back on the show.

Dr. William Webster, please tell our listeners about Grace

Bible Church of Battleground, Washington.

Grace Bible Church has been

in existence

from the beginning.

To give people some idea of

community, it's a

small...

Praise God.

And tell us about Christian Resources.

Oh, Christian Resources is a ministry I started probably about 20 years ago.

It's an online...

It

deals with...

It is...

In life and health...

Amen.

And my brother and

friend,

Reverend

David.

King, the issue of Roman Catholicism has been a great burden

to you and also to your friend and brother, or mutual friend and brother, Dr. Bill Webster.

Can you tell us why the Church of Rome has such a burden on

your heart to actually lead you to the point where you did intensive research

along with Bill Webster to dig into the Church Fathers and into Church

history, to join him on this monumental project that has been in print quite

a number of years now, Holy Scripture,.

The Ground and Pillar of Our Faith.

Well, years ago, Bill and

I, the

truth of

soul

ascended in

study, their

view was

and their views were, and so we began to study.

It became very

odd that the view of the early churches...

Yes, many Roman Catholic apologists, and I think.

Many that know better, give this view that the

Roman Catholic Church has been a monolith and has not really changed at all

since they claim Jesus founded their church and appointed Peter as their first

pope, allegedly.

And they basically say that many of the teachings of

the Protestant Reformation and even held today by heirs of the Reformation are inventions

of the reformers, that these are novel ideas that had no place in history prior to the 16th

century.

And that is why, in fact, we are titling our discussion today, The Lie of Rome, that

Sola Scriptura was invented by the reformers.

But Bill Webster, this is a myth that the reformers

invented Sola Scriptura, and in fact, if you could define Sola Scriptura for

us right now.

Basically,

the

uninspired

revelation.

And

the issue then

is that it

is

script,

it's the ultimate authority.

There's an account

that we need to have,

and in that sense then, everything else

comes

toward

it

is a

revelation.

And first of all, I want to make sure that our listeners understand something about the title of

our show today, The Lie of Rome, that Sola Scriptura was invented by the reformers.

And what I have meant by this is not that every Roman Catholic

who wrongly repeats the standard line of the

Church of Rome, that the reformers invented Sola Scriptura.

I'm not saying that all of these people who are Roman Catholics are consciously lying

about this.

I believe many are, but I believe that there are also multitudes that

are saying this out of ignorance.

They're saying this because they've been wrongly taught themselves.

They are just parroting what they have been taught, and they have been parroting what their mentors in the

faith, men like Scott Hahn and many other, Patrick

Madrid, and you could go on and on, the folks over there at Catholic Answers, they're repeating

what these folks have said.

And so, when I say the Lie of Rome, that is basically just intending to

convey the idea that the Church of Rome continues to

declare a false, a very false and slanderous

idea that those of us who believe that the scriptures are our sole

infallible and inerrant authority, are not believing something that is more

ancient than the Reformation, and we are, in their minds, believing something that is not even biblical.

And this, we would say, is a lie, whether the folks telling

this story, if you will, are consciously repeating something that they know

to be false, or whether they are just naively repeating it.

Obviously, the two main issues that are brought up by Roman Catholics in regard to Sola Scriptura

are that the Church never believed it before the Reformation, and the

Bible itself does not teach it.

David T. King, if you could respond to those claims of the Church.

Of Rome.

Myself, were you asking me, Chris?

Yeah, to start with, sure.

Okay, well, let me just say first of all that when Calvin

wrote his

Preface

to the

Spenance, Calvin

indicated to

put it

mildly would turn to our side.

Calvin was a student of the early Church.

He recognized that the early Church had a

strong test material, and

he wanted me to...

Well, that is claimed by Roman Catholics.

That we as Protestants hold up the Bible so high, and yet they

will say this idea of Sola Scriptura is not even in this Bible that we claim to be

our sole, infallible, and inerrant authority.

Yes, well, it's very clear that

the

Bible

does

not in

any test

be the one

from spoken

orally, and

he was not speaking.

It became very clear he was not speaking of traditions that were awaiting some kind of future

development.

He was talking about something that

the Thessalonians already knew to be the tradition of the Apostles, and

it was eventually inscripturated.

But the basic traditions to which Paul was referring in that passage, as he makes clear,

and they had already been delivered

in them and behold to them.

So these were things that had already been identified for the believers of the Thessalonian Church.

They weren't tradition in the Roman sense that were awaiting future development.

When you study the early Church, the Church in the East

never, in

the cases where the churches of the East did appeal to the West, they appealed to the

West only because they wanted to have the West on their side in a dispute

against other churches in the East, not because they saw

adjudicating authority, but rather because the Church of Rome was the only

church in the West

behind them in any dispute that they had with other churches.

But when you read people, it.

Became very clear.

Now earlier in the scripture, in 2nd Timothy chapter

3, we have, starting in verse 16, all

scripture is inspired by God, or God -breathed, and profitable for teaching,

for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be

adequate, equipped for every good work.

And I think that that last phrase there, in verse 17, is

very pivotal to the discussion because there is no way that the Bible

would teach things that the Roman Catholic Church

participates in and teaches themselves that are unique to them.

There's no way that the Bible would aid a Christian in

coming to the belief that they are to venerate Mary and the saints, that they are

to venerate statues and relics, that they are

to worship the hosts at the Mass, or even the

concept of the Mass.

There are many things that Roman Catholics do that the scriptures do not

teach, that you cannot train someone using the scriptures as this text is teaching

to enable them to do every good work, and if those things are good works,

those things would not be falling under that category using the Bible.

I mean, am I right?

Do you understand what I'm saying here?

Bill?

Yes, all scripture...

Oh, I'm sorry.

No, go ahead, Dave.

Go ahead, Dave.

Well, all scriptures is God -breathed, is what...

And he was speaking to Timothy in this letter.

He encouraged Timothy to continue in those things

from whom he had learned them, that is, from a godly grandmother and a godly mother, and they had

taught him from childhood the holy scriptures.

And Paul states very forthright here, and he says to Timothy

that the scriptures are able, they possess the power, he said, to make you wise

for self -faith that is in Christ.

When Timothy was just a child, all he had was the Old Testament, and surely

if the Old Testament's

and how much more the New Testament...

There is no...

Scripture knows no competing authority,.

No rival authority.

And, Bill, what I was trying to convey in my sloppy way is

obviously that when Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is

teaching Timothy that the scriptures are adequate

to train up disciples in every good work.

And if the Roman Catholic believes venerating Mary and the saints and statues

and icons and relics, if the Church of Rome believes those are good works, they

cannot fall under the category of God -breathed truth,.

Can they?

No, and let me use Mary as an

example,

since it

is non -existent, it is not there.

Jerusalem, writing in 3, you

learn, and he is catechizing, those

who have professed faith in Christ, who are coming into the faith, and the holy

scriptures concerning the Virgin receive not the testimony.

Anything that is taught about that

cannot be validated from scripture is to be utterly rejected as a teaching from man

and not God.

The whole issue of what the Reformers were trying to do is bring the Church back to

authority of scripture.

What you find in the Roman Catholic tradition is exactly what happens

today.

Exactly the same thing has happened with the Roman Catholic Church.

It has not made dogma until 19...

That is a teaching

that you find nowhere in scripture,

nowhere in tradition.

It is utterly contradictory,

contradictory

to that particular doctrine

of co -mediatrix

and subversion.

The teaching of the Assumption of Mary did not

originate with the Church, it originated with Gnosticism and

Gnostic writing called the Church

in a forged way, where a particular church father in the

6th thought that

it was

that

writing,

and

now it is, you always run

into

the ultimate

in the Jewish people, and

it is

what we need

to return to.

Now going back to 2nd Timothy 3 .17, we

cannot obviously then consider these things that you were just addressing

about Mary that are not found in the Bible and multitudes of other things that the Church of Rome teaches that are not in

the Bible, we cannot consider them, and Roman Catholics should not consider them, good works.

If the sufficient to equip us for every good work, and

these things are nowhere to be found in the pages of the Bible, they cannot be categorized, these novel things

that the Church of Rome teaches,.

They cannot be categorized as good works, correct?

To be a sanctified man or woman, you have to walk in obedience to the Word, not

in practice...

And David, you said you.

Sounded like you were going to say something, and if you could hold on to your thought, because we're going to go to a break right now, and if

anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen

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We are now back with our two guests today, Dr. William Webster

and Rev. David T. King.

Together they are co -authors of the three -volume set, Holy Scripture, the Ground and

Pillar of Our Faith, which contains over 900 pages, I believe, of information

proving and documenting that the concept of sola scriptura, that the

scriptures alone are the sole infallible and inerrant authority for the church,

that the church fathers believed in this, and this is not a novelty or an

invention of the 16th century reformation.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z

-e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and

private matter.

We do have a number of people already waiting to have their questions asked and answered, but I wanted David T. King to

continue the train of thought that he had that he.

Wanted to bring up right before we went to the break.

Yes, thank you, Chris.

A few minutes ago, Bill made reference to

Edward

Younger, who he stated in that book

categorically that every doctrine must be based

even, you know, and

then I'd also like to note

that you have other led

by patristic

theology to consider that there's

a sense, an

authentic

express

by Rome, they're not

made note in speaking

of the 12th to what

he called the patristic conception.

Just wanted to point out that that the reformers were not novel.

Yeah, we're not the

reformers.

Basically saying to the Roman Catholic apologists of their day, we

have not departed from the patristic treasure

trove or the church fathers that we claim to have great

insight into the Bible in many areas.

You, as the Church of Rome, have departed from it.

It's not like the goal of the Reformation was to invent new things or

even to start a new church.

Weren't they appealing very often to the fact that the patristic evidence

that they both claimed as their own, both to the Church of Rome and the Protestants, that the

weight of the patristic evidence was on the side of the Reformation?

Bill?

Which one?

Do you want?

Yeah, yeah.

The weight, that's absolutely certain, the weight of the patristic evidence

said that it is illegitimate,

unlawful to interpret scripture in

any way contrary to the

overall one teaching of the Reformation,

that the

authority,

but because of that, lives and

when you find in dealing with

heritage, it

always came,

any dogma that you taught had to be ratified and verified and demonstrated

by the Word of God.

In fact, Thomas Aquinas

is the measure of faith.

He made the statement in the Middle Ages, the

12th and 13th alone.

That is a

biblical...

Now, before I go to the listeners who have.

Written questions, I just wanted to have you clarify a couple of things about

your three volume, your massive three volume, monumental work,

Holy Scripture, the Ground and Pillar of our Faith.

First of all, in fact, David, I guess you could pick up, this

title is not what the scriptures say.

They say that the Holy Scriptures are the ground and I'm sorry, that the Holy

Scriptures are the...

Going back to this quote, this is a patristic quote.

This is not a quote.

From the scriptures.

It's a patristic quote from Irenaeus.

Right.

Yes.

And how would you respond.

To somebody who is saying that this is a twisting of what the Bible actually teaches?

Bill, did you.

Want to go or did you want...

Go ahead, David.

It's... Irenaeus,

and again, even the great Anglican

scholar R .P .C. Hanson's scripture alone

to be his source that we can know nothing.

And you find this repeatedly again and again.

There are certain things that Irenaeus says in terms that had come down to him by way of tradition

that surely was, that could not have been taken from scripture.

He thought that scripture, that Christ had lived to be 50 years of

age.

And he makes mention of that, that Christ must have been crucified shortly before he was 50.

And he takes that from when Jesus was

questioned.

And even that was not true, but

Irenaeus thought that he was being faithful to the principle of scripture when he dated the age

of Christ at that age.

So Irenaeus, the

Holy Scripture.

And what I meant to say was that in 1 Timothy 3 .15, it says, the church

of the living God is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

That's what I was intending to say, that there are Catholics who might say, hey, wait a minute, this title is

not even what the Bible teaches, because it's saying that the scripture is a ground and pillar of our faith, whereas the

Bible says the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, if you could comment on that.

And perhaps, Bill, you could pick up on that one.

Yeah, let me try.

Go ahead, Bill.

No, go ahead.

No, you go ahead.

Sorry about that.

Paul is simply saying there is responsibility of the church to hold up the truth,

to preach the truth, the originator of truth.

Truth originates with God.

The responsibility of the church is to hold up the revelation that God has

given to us of himself, of his mind and his will.

Go ahead, Bill.

I'm sure Bill...

No, I wish you could say it might be helpful to...

He makes a statement from those through

who come down,

which they did at one time proclaim in public, and by that he means orally.

And at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to saying, is

that, yeah,

we all agree that the apostles preached

the will in nature.

The will of God really was inscripturated in the New

Testament.

And what he's saying, that oral,

it is what they have written.

How do we know what they preach

to tell us on

that issue?

The issue is, it

is a revelation.

What he's saying

is that the

only revelation we possess is

authority over us, which we believe

that in the way he dealt with the Gnostics in his writings.

Because Woberman brings this out.

He says, for Irenaeus to appeal to revelatory truth, that is, anything that you can

say apart from...

Because that's the argument, the authority of

the Word of God

needed if you were going to...

Teaching of the insufficient

supplementing the full revelation of God is

not a teaching from the early church.

It is a Gnostic teaching.

It originates with...

And I wanted to say that, as you know, one of the most frequently

made accusations against Protestants in regard to the patristics

is that whenever it seems that quotations from the church fathers are made that

support uniquely Protestant teachings, that they are being taken out of context.

And is this not one of the reasons that the Holy Scripture, the ground and pillar of our faith,

is over 900 pages long and in three volumes?

Because of the fact that you wanted to make clear that these citations that you were

including in these volumes were not taken out of context.

They're not taken out of context,

fathers.

And very few people read church fathers.

So it's easy to make that claim.

We go to great lengths

to try to give

theologians

the theology that they held to

it.

As David

just quoted from George Tabard, he's a Roman Catholic, he's saying,

he's Conger State.

If you know the church fathers and their writings, the only conclusion you can come to is that

this is a basic fundamental principle.

They did not believe

in nature.

Now, correct me if

I'm wrong, but I

seem to have a memory that some of the.

Patristic evidence that you include in these three volumes were things, writings

that were translated into English for the first time.

Am I correct in remembering it that way?

Yeah, I'm up for that.

Go ahead, David.

Bill hired the number of men at Notre

to translate some, particularly some medieval scholars that had never been

translated.

In the

very beginning, you know, the Church of the East had the very

authority of the

Apocrypha.

And I looked at that in three,

the canon of the Jews,.

And from

the Old Testament, it

had never been done

previously.

You can go back to when

Jerome

rejected

that, and

he knew

what

the Jewish

writings, what

Athanasius taught, you never would appeal to them as an authority.

Jerome on, what

I looked at in the medieval church was, what

was the

view of the

Apocrypha as being canonical?

The Glossa Ordinae

in the Middle Ages for the training of theologians, it makes

the commentary

a number

of theologians of the Middle Ages.

I had their works translated.

We're going to

our midway break right now.

The.

Midway break is a longer than normal break, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in

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And please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the USA and only remain

anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And by the way, Bill, I am going to be forwarding to you right now an email that we received already

from Pastor Josh Fryman of the New Testament Baptist Church of Larimore, North Dakota,

and you'll be able to have time to look over that question during the break because it is specifically

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But we're going to be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

James White here, co -founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries and occasional guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Hello, I'm Dr. Gary Kimbrell, senior pastor at Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi, and I'm hoping that many of you

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Transcribed by https://otter .ai.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in, our two guests today are Dr. Bill Webster and Rev. David T. King.

We are discussing the very provocative theme, The Lie of Rome, that Sola

Scriptura was an invention of the Reformers.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Bill Webster and David King, our email address is chrisarnzen at

gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Before I return to our discussion, I just have a few very important announcements.

First of all, cvbbs .com, that's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,

who supports Iron Trip and Zion Radio, has a Christmas sale going on where they are taking 10 off

everything in their inventory.

Also, if you purchase a minimum of $50 worth of merchandise, and you mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Trip

and Zion Radio, you will receive the book Always Reforming by David Engelsma absolutely

free of charge.

Please always remember to mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Trip and Zion Radio whenever you order at

cvbbs .com.

That's cvbbs .com.

And of course, remember that if you prefer ordering by phone and actually speaking to a

live voice, you can call cvbbs .com Monday through Friday between

10 a .m. and 4 30 p .m. Eastern Time at their toll

-free number 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231.

Also, we have the Iron Trip and Zion Radio pastor's luncheon coming up that I hope

all men in ministry leadership who hear this will attend.

Whether you live locally or need to take a train, plane, or automobile, we would love to see you there.

It's absolutely free of charge.

It's being held Thursday, January 3rd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and

Rescue Banquet Hall here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's being sponsored by our friends at BatteryDepot .com, LinbrookBaptist .org, and

NASBible .com, the publishers of the New American Standard Bible.

And not only will you be fed physically with food for free,

compliments of our friends at Firehouse Subs, but you will also be fed spiritually with

what I have no doubt will be a powerful message by my dear friend Dr. Tony Costa,

professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

Dr. Costa has spoken at the luncheon before and he is returning and I'm so

thrilled about that.

He is going to be speaking on the theme, The Meaninglessness of Life and the Destruction of Western

Society Without God.

Not only will you be getting the free message by Dr. Costa and the lunch that I mentioned, but

also nearly every single major Christian publisher in the United States and the United Kingdom has donated

books that will be given away to every person attending.

I'm talking about two at least heavy sacks of books.

I select a title from each publisher and they donate a hundred copies of each of

those titles so that every man attending can have a copy each of those

titles.

And since there's quite a number of publishers doing this in the United States and the United Kingdom, there

are at least two heavy sacks of books that you'll be going home with absolutely free of charge and there

is nothing for sale at

the only the intention of blessing men in the ministry with a time of good

food, rest, relaxation, fun, fellowship, hearing a meaningful message that

will benefit their lives in ministry and also to make new friends that they may have

never met before.

This was the design of my late wife Julie in the 1990s and we have been continuing this

tradition of hers after she has gone home to glory with Christ.

If you want to attend this and you are a man in ministry leadership this is not for the ladies.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com and put pastor's luncheon

in the subject line.

Then immediately following that there is an event that Dr. Tony Costa will be speaking at here in this area

that is open for everyone men women and children whether you are a Christian or not

Dr. Costa will be speaking on the theme contending for the faith the church in a post -modern world

that's going to be at the Enola First Church of God in Enola Pennsylvania where my dear friend Pastor George

Jensen is the pastor.

That's going to be held Friday January 4th through Sunday January 6th.

This is also free of charge and if you would like to attend this event you can go to

enolacog .com that's e n o l a c o g dot

com or you can call 717 -732 -4253 717

-732 -4253 which is the number of the Enola First Church of God in Enola Pennsylvania.

If you'd like to email me as well for more details you could just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put

Tony Costa conference in the subject line or something similar.

I look forward to seeing as many of you as possible at that conference from Friday January

4th through Sunday January 6th.

Then later on in the month I am going to be God willing for the third year in a row

attending the G3 conference in Atlanta Georgia more specifically College Park

Georgia.

I love this conference and it has proven to be extremely beneficial to me personally and also the Iron

Trip and Zion Radio Manning and Exhibitors booth there.

The G3 stands for Gospel Grace and Glory in case you're wondering and they have a very long roster

of speakers there from Thursday January 17th through Saturday January 19th.

The speakers include Dr. James R. White, John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson, Vody Baucom,

Mark Dever, Conrad M. Bayway, Phil Johnson, we have Todd

Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen J. Nichols the president of Reformation Bible College the college founded

by the late R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries and many more are on that very long roster.

If you'd like to attend go to g3conference .com g3conference .com you can also register for an

exhibitors booth if you'd like to join me there and man your own exhibitors booth if you have a business a

church a parachurch ministry or special event that you want to promote in that crowd of between four

and five thousand people that they are expecting there that's g3conference .com g3conference .com by

the way they only have room for 10 more exhibitors booths so if you would like to to man your own booth

I would jump on that opportunity very quickly.

Then even further into the month of January the Deep South

Founders Conference is being held.

This is going to be my first time manning an exhibitors booth at the Deep South Founders Conference at Bethlehem

Baptist Church in Laurel Mississippi.

In fact it's my very first time ever in Mississippi God willing and that's going to be on the theme of sanctification

and the speakers include Rusty Reed, Gerald Henderson, Jason Goodwin, Bobby Crenshaw,

and Dr. Conrad Mbewe, pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia, Africa and Chancellor of African

Christian University.

If you'd like to attend this event from January 24th through the 26th in Laurel

Mississippi go to deepsouthfounders .com deepsouthfounders .com.

Last but not least if you love Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio and you don't want our show to disappear from the airwaves please go

to ironsherpanzironradio .com click support then click click to donate now.

You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing so you could also mail in a check the old

-fashioned way if you prefer that to the address that will appear on your screen when you click

support at ironsherpanzironradio .com.

Please as always as I try to remember to remind you never siphon money away from your regular giving to

your local church where you are a member in order to give to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

Never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

Those two things are commands of God supporting your church and home.

Supporting my show is not a command of God.

But if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands of God then please

if you love the show you don't want it to go away go to ironsherpanzironradio .com click support then click click to donate now.

If you are without a church home and you're not perfectly looking for one you are living in rebellion against God so please rectify

that situation I can help you find a good church.

I help people who are listening in the Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio audience quite

frequently finding a church home near them all over the world.

So if you would if you need help send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put I need a church

home in the subject line.

If you want to advertise with us send an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

And we would love to help you launch an ad campaign as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe.

You don't have to believe identically with me but you need to be promoting something that is compatible with what I believe.

And I would love to help you launch that campaign because we really do need the advertising dollars.

In fact we are in urgent need of your donations and advertising dollars right now because we are in some uh

pretty frightening financial uh times right now so please help us out as much

as you can.

And also uh you could send in an email with a question to our guests Bill Webster and David T King to

chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail .com and uh we'll start

uh with you Bill Webster.

Uh you probably have the question in front of you since I forwarded it to you.

But uh Pastor Josh Fryman of New Testament Baptist Church of Laramore North

Dakota says Mr. Webster thank you for the work put into.

Must Jesus be Lord to be Savior.

It has proven to be a help to many including myself also what is a way you recommend

defending Sola Scriptura while also making clear the truth that the spirit is

necessary.

For instance the Pharisees had scripture and facts but not the truth.

Excellent questions.

And we'll start with you Bill.

And we can have David also jump

on

that

as well.

Authority

validated the actual scriptures.

These were male theology based on tradition

where they were like they did not know

the truth.

Nicodemus you are the

teacher of Israel you are

be the pen of.

You do not have the spirit of.

Part of the issue why the scriptures are given is to

teach fundamental truth of the gospel.

Is one major issue that

is that the

reformation that

what is

the major message

authority that has been given to us.

How do I know him.

If I know him I have the spirit of God.

Sola Scriptura is simply the foundation.

It is saying what I need to know

about how to know and

then how

to

mean that

all talking about

the sufficient I need to live

here to God.

I am told.

Why do I say that.

Because how

to walk

with the

Lord.

You may be

perfect and complete lacking in nothing.

And what the the conclusion drawn from that was said scripture itself is not

God working.

And I know that because

scripture teaches me that all I need is

scripture and

the foundation for my entire life.

And David uh

isn't this one of the things the specific thing.

That Pastor Josh Fryman asked about the necessity of the spirit isn't

this one of the things that separates reformed theology and reformed Christianity

from not only Pelagianism but semi Pelagianism and Arminianism.

Of course you would have many of the latter two categories claiming that the spirit would be

necessary but it seems to contradict what they teach about every human being

having the innate potential to understand the gospel and Bible and

respond to it savingly.

So therefore obviously you can't have the Holy Spirit equally

in a in a way that is other than impotent

drawing men to himself and saving him because of the fact that you have many people who

are being given Bibles that they read uh they're they're hearing sermons

they're reading tracks they are even brilliant geniuses and seminaries who are lost.

Uh.

But we as reformed Christians believe that it is the it is necessary to be regenerate first by the

miracle of the Holy Spirit to even savingly come to Christ.

Am I not correct here.

Yes that's right.

The apostle Paul.

Teaches us in Romans 8 7 that the carnal mind is enmity with God.

It is that what can it be.

Paul states the the

carnal

mind if we

read reformers like John Calvin.

Calvin always emphasize uh the connection of word and spirit word and

spirit.

He never separated the two.

He said the two go together.

You read someone in the early church like uh well for instance Basil of Caesarea

he's writing to a

to a widow insulation of the holy

scriptures.

He said you stand in need neither of my assistance nor of that of

anybody else to help you comprehend your duty.

You have the all -sufficient counsel and guidance of the Holy Spirit

to lead you to what is right.

In other words there's the combination of word and spirit word and spirit

even in Basil of Caesarea.

And it seems to us today that constantly when uh Rome

emphasizes that private interpretation of scripture or

an honest examination of scripture by an individual is wrong.

Rome is constantly trying to place itself but between the Christian and holy

scripture the Roman Magisterium the teaching office of the church.

They're constantly placing that uh between the Christian uh

even in the Council of Trent.

Uh they forbid that the the Bibles should be translated in the vulgar of the

people.

Uh they didn't want to give people over and over

again you see the necessity of the work of the Holy Spirit and opening our

eyes to the truth of God that's been revealed in holy scripture.

And Bill's correct about what he said about that past the Roman apologist

that is studying that in James.

One seems to be unconscious that his source for that discipline

norming the.

Very discipline.

And guess what uh Pastor Josh Fryman you have won by virtue of your question being sent today

you have won the book Salvation the Bible and Roman Catholicism.

Compliments of our friends at Banner of Truth located right here in Carlisle Pennsylvania the American

headquarters anyway who have donated copies of this book by our friend Dr. William

Webster.

To those who write in questions and thank you so much for the excellent questions that you submitted please give us

your full mailing address in Laramore North Dakota so that cvbbs .com Cumberland Valley

Bible Book Service can ship this book out to you again.

Compliments of our friends at the Banner of Truth.

And if you could Dr. Bill Webster tell our listeners in summary form something about Salvation the Bible

and Roman Catholicism published by Banner of Truth.

When I was first

uh the evangelical and I

initially uh because of my background found myself uh

because of my newfound faith and wondering about where you know

my own tradition and what I had been raised in and how.

As I began to research and

I should have

done that the

and it was uh in my Bible school that I attended I had to write a a

thesis paper in the

Bible.

I ended up submitting that to Banner

printed that and published

prior to begin to do more

research and to become more

involved in praise God.

Well we're going to our final break right now.

It's.

Going to be much more brief than the last one.

Uh if you have any questions please send them in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com is our address chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Before I go to the break I will read a question to you and you could answer it when we return.

Both of you can answer it.

Uh we have uh pastor Jeffrey Waddington of the Knox Orthodox

Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne Pennsylvania who asks which

pronouncements of the pope are ex cathedra.

That will be uh the question for both of you and you'll have time to think about that.

In fact when we come back if you could define that that would be helpful.

Uh don't go away.

God willing we're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back this is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in we have been interviewing Bill Webster

and David T King on the issue that is a very provocative issue of

an issue that professing Christians disagree on and it is something

that we believe is of the utmost importance in this day and age of rampant unbiblical

ecumenism and the issue is the lie of Rome that sola scriptura was invented

by the reformers.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own do so immediately because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com chrisarnzen at gmail .com and before

the break I read the question that was provided for us by Pastor Jeffrey

Waddington of Knox Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Lansdowne Pennsylvania.

What pronouncements of the Pope are ex cathedra or ex cathedra and if you could start David T King and then we'll have

Bill Webster chime in as well.

I suppose the first way of response is Chris.

There are very few that are actually...

And actually start off with the definition of ex cathedra or ex cathedra.

The Pope has to be speaking from the chair on an official teaching

of the he has to be you know speaking officially

as the teacher of all christian

cathedra that there are very few

statements of the

comment on that.

By the way I've never had the editor of

one of the editors I've got

an article any day now.

Oh great.

But the

thing about it is is that the Pope rarely makes any kind of statement

like that and Bill would probably be bested.

I'd like to say one thing if I could before we get off the air today Chris about the genesis of our work.

The genesis of our books really was born out of

Bill and myself.

We were simply going to sit down

and author a book together but sometime as

we began to study it in our study took I think we

spent about six and a half

years in

reading scripture and in the history of the church particularly in

the history of the church.

And actually not that the length of any work is a comment on the

truth of it but actually our book together I think was over 1200 pages ended up being three

volumes but originally our proposal was a very modest one.

We were just going to write it was because the research the research we put into it

just produced this enormous amount of

all of it.

In fact I remember when the three volume set first came out.

For quite a while I think even years at least a handful of years there was

no Roman Catholic response to it.

Has there been any meaningful response at all to this book since it came out?

I'm not I'm not really I was going to say I'm not

I'm not aware of any

engaged

edited by

Robertson.

So going

back to ex

cathedra

very often you

will

hear Roman Catholics.

Use the argument of ex cathedra declarations as a

defense to steer the conversation away

from the importance of some statements and encyclicals.

And things that popes have said and written that they would even agree are utterly ridiculous

especially when we have a pope as liberal as Pope Francis.

Or I shouldn't say we have a pope they have they have a pope as liberal as Pope Pope Francis.

And you have many of the conservative and traditionalist Catholics who don't even bring them up in public because they're so

embarrassed but they'll say well it doesn't really matter because he hasn't said anything crazy.

Ex cathedra if you could comment.

On that Bill?

Well that term ex cathedra was dogmatized in the

19th

century

in 1860 the

basic he

teaches on

anything related to

the

teaching that

was that he

is.

You

have

to impose a later dogma on the teachings of the bishops of Rome.

And there are very very few statements that are given by

bishops of Rome throughout the history of the

encyclopedia would say that the declaration

of Boniface VIII

salvation and he said it is necessary for every human creature to be

another would be Pius IX in 1854 when he defined the

doctrine of the immaculate conception.

Another would be in 1950 when Pius XII

defined the dogma of to my

knowledge to my knowledge at least

there's

yeah I could

see where

roaming uh

that he's not done that

anything that he is a bishop.

Nonetheless this

discerning given the fact was never

embraced by out the middle ages.

This was never a doctrine.

And the eastern church obviously even.

And you have

heroes of the church of Rome church fathers.

And giants of their religion that would have been

executed if those some of those dogmas existed

when they were alive.

But obviously they use that to defend the reputation of these

men who who disagreed with many of the dogmas that came about in later centuries.

They say well it wasn't excath it wasn't declared ex cathedra or ex cathedra when they were alive so they have a

pass.

I mean it's really kind of absurd isn't it.

Again the definition.

You're not going to find the definition in the early church.

It is interesting

three constant that

condemnation in terms of

they don't use the

term ex cathedra but all of the principles

that define what that may

ship of Rome

they named him by name in his official

that he gave

language cannot be missed.

They said that satanorious

and a number

and

they used

so you can take the

principle.

You're not going to find an explicit define

until the night.

By the way dr waddington you have also won a free copy of the book that we are giving away compliments

of banner of truth salvation the bible and roman catholicism.

Please give us your full mailing address so that cvbbs .com can ship that out to you.

We have gordy in mechanicsburg pennsylvania.

How much do you think the leaders in the roman catholic church rely on their parishioners ignorance of the

scriptures to maintain their integrity or is there an increasing interest to try to read the

scriptures for oneself in say the last 10 years.

Yeah well I was in catholic school after vatican ii so

allegedly we were being encouraged to read the scriptures.

We were all required to buy good news for modern man the catholic edition and we had them

in our desks but we very rarely ever were instructed by the nuns to open them up.

But anyway if you could comment on gordy's question

david if you could start.

How much do you think the leaders in the roman catholic church rely on their parishioners ignorance of the scriptures to.

Maintain their integrity.

I think by and large.

I think by and large.

They rely a great

time to gain even any

time you try to bring up scripture with them.

Of course the responses in other words it's not the interpretation

of the magisterium so i'm i'm not so

sure indicate the reading the scripture and so

long as throughout my years i've met very few

members of the roman community.

Thank

you gory.

You've also won a free copy of the book salvation the bible and roman catholicism compliments

of our friends at the banner of truth.

We have uh mary in cork ireland and i have to enlarge

mary's question because the font on the email is microscopic.

All right.

Let's see here.

Uh i'm not sure if this was covered but i was.

I wonder would one of your guests help me to understand the scripture about the queen of heaven

in jeremiah chapter 7 verse 18 and jeremiah chapter 44 verses 17 through 25.

As i know they give the title to the virgin mary in the roman.

Catholic church.

Uh bill if you could start david all right.

David well you know jeremiah.

There he's.

Michelle.

I mean there's no support of that

in jeremiah jeremiah comes out against that.

Uh bill do you have anything to add in.

Well in the book of revelation

in chapter 12 standing of that

you go

beyond what scripture

teaches about mary.

You get into

these

trees almost demonized.

I mean uh deified.

Some of the deified the the descriptions that are given her and later in the middle ages

basically

is a mediatrix

and

unhistorical.

Again it we

are

out of

time.

And i definitely want the two of you to come back quickly.

If you are willing to be our guest to continue this very deep subject i will send you a calendar

of available dates after we are off the air.

So i hope you genuinely uh are interested as much as i am to return.

I want to thank um we have a listener cody in

albany oregon who is a first -time questioner.

I'm sorry we don't have time to read your question and have it answered.

But we will try to bring that up uh during our next interview god willing with bill webster

and david t king we are going to send you a free copy of the book that we have been discussing

uh salvation the bible and roman catholicism compliments of banner of truth.

We're also going to be sending you a new new american standard bible.

Since you are a first -time questioner uh well i know that uh.

Christian resources can be found at christiantruth

.com christiantruth .com.

And if you want to get in contact with bill webster or david king just go to that website.

I want to thank you both for being our guest today.

Please uh hold on so i could give you a proper goodbye off the air.

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write.

And i want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is

a.