Is God's Law Unjust, Unfair, and Past?

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Free men. I would say if the authorities didn't want us involved in the public square, they ought not to have crucified

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Jesus in the public square. Use humanistic principles. Well, I would say the same idea. I would say that. Same answer.

00:17

I would say what's the problem with stardust bumping into stardust? In the cosmic picture? None. There's no problem.

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Oh, right. In the cosmic picture, it won't matter. No, Mr.

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President, you are not protecting reproductive freedom. You are authorizing the destruction of freedom for one million little human beings every year.

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I'm sorry, my friends, but I am tired of seeing Jesus presented as a weak beggar.

00:58

He is a powerful savior, and the gospel is not a suggestion, it is a command.

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I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living God, but I believe there's only one way that that can happen through Jesus Christ, and the gospel is about repenting of sin, not celebrating it.

01:25

An amazing adventure.

01:31

We will explore the spiritual abyss. You have not experienced this before.

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Event. Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.

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I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them, for truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

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Therefore, whoever, whoever, see there it is, guys, it's happening already, relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same, be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

02:22

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. This is the gospel heard around the world.

02:27

Glad you guys joined us. You can get more at ApologiaStudios .com. That's A -P -O -L -O -G -I -A -Studios .com.

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I'm trying my best just to form sentences right now. I have a couple days of just difficulty and no sleep.

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If I start saying really strange things, just give me a nudge. Just throw something at me.

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Hey, you're not speaking about the same thing anymore. Sign up for all access.

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When you do, you guys make everything we do possible. We have so much planned. We just had a meeting yesterday with the team. I'm very, very excited about 2023.

03:47

We have a lot coming to bless you, to bless your church, teaching ministry, on the street evangelism, all kinds of great stuff happening with End Abortion Now.

03:55

By the way, if you haven't signed your church up for End Abortion Now yet to get free training and free resources to come and join the about 900 churches, to go out to the abortion clinics, to preach the gospel, to save lives, then go to EndAbortionNow .com.

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It is totally free for your church to get equipped and get training and resources. We want to be no burden on your church.

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We want to help raise your church up to be a part of the thousands upon thousands of lives that have been spared at the abortion clinics.

04:24

But big news, here's the big news. It was good two months ago. It was good six months ago in terms of our plans for 2023 and the legislators we were talking to.

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You just need to know, and we just had this conversation yesterday, that I think that it feels like there's a bit of a stall in the area of the issue of Christians focused on abolishing or ending the injustice of abortion because I think many of us have thought, okay,

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Roe is out of the way, and so, okay, we're good. We've accomplished this monster's out of the way. That's not true. We're just at the start line in many respects because now this big monster's out of the way, we can start doing the real work because it's not an excuse any longer.

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And so we have so much more we have to do, and so we need your help. But the good news is, again, months ago we were like, hey, there's some great stuff happening for 2023.

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We've got legislators already that are committed, that love the Lord, and they're putting these bills in to say, hey, equal protection for all humans from conception in my state.

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We have eight now, eight states. Next legislative session we have eight states to include. Georgia, we've got – boy, that was a bit hard for me today.

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Alabama, Mississippi, Arizona. Idaho. We are helping with Idaho. That's right.

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We've got one in Idaho now. Scott Herndon in Idaho is going to be putting one in Idaho. We're going to support that bill.

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That's not actually a bill that we've put in, but that's a bill we're supporting. We've got South Dakota happening. We've got –

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Did you say Louisiana? Did I say Louisiana? I don't know if I did. So Louisiana, we have a lot. Georgia, a lot.

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I think we do have Arkansas now too. Do we really? Oh, crazy. And Texas again. Oh, yeah. Okay, so maybe that's nine or ten now.

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I'm not counting those. Okay. So all that to say, big things are happening.

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It's 2023. It's going to be, I think, our most difficult year yet with the work that we're doing for End Abortion Now, which means that we need you to join us financially.

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So go to endabortionnow .com to partner with us financially because although we are lean and mean as a ministry, and we don't have anywhere near the dollars as the pro -life establishment and all the tens of millions that they bring in, we accomplish a lot by God's grace and in His power.

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We accomplish a lot through a very lean and mean ministry of Apologia Church, but we need you to support us because it –

06:46

I think last year, let's go ahead and announce stuff. Last year, we probably spent $100 ,000 on the bill in Louisiana and the work we had to do to get that bill into Louisiana and to fight with that bill, and it was unprecedented what took place, and they talked about it all over the national media.

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It was a big, big moment for the church and, honestly, a huge success in terms of planting a seed that did some real damage, and it's growing now into fruition.

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And so, by the way, many of the bills that are happening now in 2023 for ending abortion in terms of equal protection and abolition are happening as a result of what happened in Louisiana.

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Inspiring other legislators, it can be done. Okay, that's the direction we have to go. That's what faithfulness and consistency is.

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So, all that to say, go to endabortionnow .com, give there, sign up there, and on to you.

07:35

Thank you. It actually worked. You did it. I was able to communicate. Okay. Okay. So, do you know what today is?

07:41

Guess what day it is. It's a decade. Oh, I thought you were going to say it's hump day. It's – we're past hump day. Oh, okay. So, you don't even know what day it is.

07:46

I was going to say Thursday. It's a decade, bro. Is it officially 10 years? Apologia Radio, 10 years.

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10 years. Whoop. It's a decade. The streamers.

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I would've thought I'd come in more prepared like, you know, yeah. Yeah, 10 years. We should have like someone dancing in the background, you know.

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We brought in a special guest. Yeah, that's right. Welcome to our 10 -year anniversary. That's what I was here for.

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It's a decade. I came just for this. Yep. So, yeah. It's exciting. You ready to leap into today?

08:17

Yeah. Quickly, I was going to say you probably – if you caught on at the beginning, we have a brothers at uh

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Armored Republic. They are sponsoring us. We're partnering with them. We're very thankful for them. I actually have on our

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Armored Republic Apology Radio mashup t -shirt today which is pretty cool and you can find that at shop .apologystudios

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.com to get some of those and then we're also excited to be partnering with New Saint Andrews and we

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I'm going to let this man right here do the do the spiel for New Saint Andrews.

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You want to spiel? Give me a spiel. New Saint Andrews College, Moscow, Idaho. Graduating leaders who shape culture under the lordship of Jesus Christ.

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Check us out at NSA .edu. That was sweet and to the point. Very Presbyterian. Ben Merkle, our good friend,

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Ben Merkle. Um I don't even know how many times you've been on. It's been several.

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A few times. It's been a few times. Yeah. Yeah. I checked my punch card but. We've spent time together and you know, done life together and eating together and and uh we love

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Ben and his family and all those guys up in Moscow and gals. Um and so Ben happened to be here right now and so I think it'd be good to say okay so I want to just at the outset say this.

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Um when we're dealing, we're going to deal with some conceptual stuff right now in terms of people making claims about you know what this particular position believes.

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They made some errors. Um we're going to deal with some issues that I think conceptually are very very important for us to to get rooted in scripture and a biblical framework in or on and the reason being is

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I think much of the uh of the collapse that we see around us in Western civilization, Western culture, much of you know

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Christendom that's sort of you know um the the you know it's still there but it's it much of it is sort of in you know rebel and we need to rebuild and and conquer again.

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Um this conceptual area of the law of God and justice and just how do you apply the principles of sola scriptura to everyday life is very very important.

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I was saying to Ben before we came on the show today you know we've never had in church history like a major reformation moment where like back to the

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Bible moment in terms of the church you know largely thinking about it and getting into scraps over the issue on the law of God specifically in terms of um it's abiding relevance today and like how how do you apply that general equity because like you'll have like the

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Westminster divines will say uh you know the general equity of the law but like being able to like really explicate that so that everyone understands what do we mean by general equity of the law and how does that apply in principle to all of society to my family uh to the church to the state all those things we need to do that so this particular discussion like we

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I was saying to the guys we we love Doreen like I love her testimony

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I absolutely love her as I've had I spent time with her she's wonderful I don't know Pastor John personally and I didn't really know about you know the show

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Theocast and things like that um but this is a good little moment for us to continue to interact with um and I'm going to say we're always very cautious about like what kind of scraps do we get into what kind of like conversations do we want to get into is it something that's going to bring division in the body that's just totally unnecessary or is it a conversation actually is very valuable and it could be transform transformative um and let me just say because Ben's here it's all about to say leading into this when you talk about conceptually getting this right according to scripture the authority of Christ the law word of God God's principles of justice and wisdom righteousness in the world around us and you have a perspective of the future when you get it right and you have a perspective of the future of Christ is ruling and reigning now and he's putting all of his enemies under his feet it does change the way you live it does

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I mean it really does one of the first thing people say is like I'll go around the country and say hey Pastor Jeff you know really because of your sermon on post -millennialism

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I listened I went to those verses it challenged me and like it's I'm post -mill now and I always say the same thing right

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I would say praise God let's get to work and the response is generally the same they're like yeah that's the thing that's most affected me it's like now looking at my life going what should

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I be doing like I'm here and we're here for the long haul like how can I bring this under the rule of Christ and and how can

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I be faithful in all areas and so that brings me to Ben Ben is from Moscow and um he um is with New St.

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Andrews and president of New St. Andrews and New St. Andrews is just a rigorous rigorous education um

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Christian education that sees it's holistic it's like everything it's like it's how to think like a

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Christian how to reason like a Christian how to work like a Christian and it's in every area of life but NSA is just a part of like this movement of the church in the town of Moscow with Christchurch you've got

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Canon Press where you're publishing materials and you're a media platform you've got um you've got all the businesses that are owned by believers and members of Christchurch that are doing it to the glory of God and like I was

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I've said many times if you go to Main Street yeah like the best places to eat with the best products and that the funnest places to be at are like owned by members of it is really striking how much of a

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Christian economy is there and it's moving into just it's not just like one business it's just a whole wide variety all kind of looking to do business but do life together all to the glory of God and looking to his word to figure out how we ought to do this right and I think it's very striking to see that overflow into a culture yeah and I think that's that and it's funny because if you listen to the person who's not with Christchurch in Moscow or you know

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University of Idaho like right you know it's like you've got people understand when you're there people understand there's there's like a tension at points between two completely foreign or different cultures yeah yeah if you if you move to Moscow right now guaranteed within your first week of moving

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Moscow somebody's going to give you a literal list like like this happens there's a list and it's all the people that own businesses they're connected to Christchurch they'll tell you this is the list of places you can't go

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I'm like I'm not exaggerating this is a metaphorical like you will be handed a list you'll be told don't shop in these places really but what's often said is and it's unfortunate because some of these are the best places you know like it's actually really kind of like going in there but yeah that's yeah yeah yeah no it's it's

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OK so I'm trying to bring this together in terms of like why have a discussion you know I don't really know

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Pastor John and I know Doreen but why have this discussion like you know are we going to create disunity here that doesn't need to be you know doesn't need to be there you know is this just any offer issues that we just need to ignore and just move along and I want to say no the practical issues here are very relevant and the principled issues here are very relevant and I think about what's happening in Moscow and how the mindset of the rule and reign of Christ over all things in every area of life the view to the future that says we have a duty to spend this gold that God has given to us not bury it right and we have to make sure he has a return when he comes back yeah you know we look look what

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I built for you and our aim is to bring the gospel into every area of life and to bring every area of life under the authority of Christ so it's not just government right we're no absolutely

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I mean I think that Deuteronomy 6 you get that great image of you know scripture as frontlets to your eyes as something that that is right here and is right here on your hand that basically the idea that you're supposed to teach your children to see the world and to see all that they set their hands to through the lens of scripture and through the instruction of scripture the problem is if you say no scripture doesn't speak to those things then you've leave people with no there's no application there's no instruction there's nothing like that and I think that's the real concern is the truncating of where where does scripture speak and what does it speak to I think a biblical view is what everywhere it's it's it's speaking to everything and I'd be really concerned about a view that starts to say no scripture doesn't instruct a government how it ought to act

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I think that's that's very concerning yeah it's really concerning yeah it is in terms of you have this this this word from God this revelation of God that's so comprehensive right it doesn't tell us everything about everything right right not all knowledge in the universe is in this revelation yeah you can't you can't be simplistic is it we don't have an instruction manual for everything you could possibly set your hand to in scripture well we have our godly principles that wisdom has to apply and translate to each situation but you can't set you so you can say look it's a broad principle that I have to apply with wisdom but that's different than saying it doesn't apply to this at all it doesn't it's not relevant to this at all that's right and so that's the issue of like the comprehensive nature of scripture where you know like when

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I feel the same way when I hear someone today you know typical Western you know evangelical or professing Christian sort of treat the issue of like government of like well

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God has nothing to say to that or the issue of like the the relationship between you know with with public education and those sorts of things and like education education is neutral we can do education without Jesus and it's just like wait wait wait wait wait wait this is not good yeah and I think that's that's why we would want to address like a conversation like this because a conversation like this not only misrepresented the position itself it just showed ignorance about what the

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Theonomist would would teach but it also it impacts us in dramatic ways because it takes

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Christians when you say you know don't believe in the victory of Christ in history like it's just going to get worse and we're just this is going to hell in a hand basket don't worry and you say don't don't worry about thinking about how

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God's word and wisdom and his law would apply to you know magistrates that God calls his deacon like don't worry about that like Jesus isn't worried about that right it pulls

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Christians out of the fight yeah and I would say you know why is it and I'll end with this and give it to you and then we'll go to the video but I want to lay some foundation here why is it that we still have laws on the books in Texas in much much of New England in Idaho across the nation we still have laws on the books that call basiality like a crime you know homosexuality a crime polygamy a crime it's still on the books like why where'd how about how'd that get there right like you know

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I'm saying like yeah you know like today we go everything's collapsing is darkness and they're you know gender bending and they're destroying marriage and everything else like oh my goodness what are we going to do whatever we going to do and it's like you know it's weird those

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Christians in the past seem to understand that like you do need to have God's standards and principles yeah yeah like here right yeah

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I was I was struck in the video the the seem to be saying that the Ten Commandments are the only piece of the law that has continuing relevance or application now so can

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I marry my sister you know you it's not in the Ten Commandments I don't think can we have sex with animals in a new covenant yeah new covenant right there's just a whole host of things that actually scripture unpacks for us and we do have you know the glory of the law of God being written on your heart so we do have natural revelation there's a lot of God written in your heart there's a lot of people who implicitly know and then think that because I implicitly know doesn't

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I don't need scripture to say it but the problem is the more and more twisted you get that that natural revelation gets more and more blurry so you know

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Calvin describes the scripture like the the corrective lenses that go on to your eyesight so we can all see with our natural eyes with natural revelation we have a an initial kind of rough guest about morality but because of the fall we're we're confused and everything is blurry so scripture comes on and makes it clear but I think the further we get away from our

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Christian heritage the blurrier our eyesight is and that means the more powerful of a prescription we need we cannot rely just on what is implicit in people's intuition we need scripture to directly address it and it's probably true that there are times when you didn't need a

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Bible verse to tell you not to do that you didn't need a Bible verse to tell you can't have sex with animals but now it's getting to the point where you might actually need a

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Bible verse yeah you need you need that kind of explicit instruction oh yeah that's a good good illustration and and I said last week you know scripture does teach and it's funny that you have to get this conceptually from scripture to be certain about it that there's natural revelation and natural law yeah and that so or general revelation and then there's special revelation like we understand because scripture tells us here's how

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God made the world here's what they know here's what they're doing with that knowledge and this is what the revelation of God is and it's the honest us it's breathed out by God it's profitable so like we understand that like God gives us these two books general revelation and special revelation

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God says he does like it's clear in scripture there's general revelation there's special revelation the problem is because of human sin and corruption and rebellion and suppression of truth a lot of this natural revelation this general revelation gets muddy and outright rejected because of sin if you have any doubt about that I just would encourage you to just walk down the streets of like I don't know downtown

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Seattle and tell me if you see any men that are dressed like women or things you know they're they're taking the revelation of God what they clearly know and they're saying no

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I don't want him I don't want to know that and the point is is if God gives us both books general and special then they're not going to contradict each other because they're both from God they're the same they're from the same creator the same one that's given the revelation general and special and so the point is is that if you've got two books from the same

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God general revelation and special revelation they're not going to contradict one another because they're from the same

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God so you have to use the light of special revelation to be that corrective lens to be that light that really shines into general revelation because you've got general revelation according to scripture being suppressed by the rebel and so yeah general revelation does give you good things but the problem is sin and rebellion that always blurs it and says no thanks

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I don't want it so special revelation is that word from God that speaks right back into that general revelation and says no you know you know that you're guilty and you know this is evil and I have certainty because it's special yes

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I was just I was just gonna say before we get into this because I know there was an individual that was upset because of some things that we said last week but apparently he pastor

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John John is is a millennial so he did mention to kingdom theology which

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I think we'll get into today so we may not have I think I said probably would say certain things so he's a millennial but that doesn't change the point

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I was trying to make so I just want to clarify he's actually a millennial yeah that doesn't that doesn't change the point I was yeah there was a video that actually mischaracterized what we did last week it said like we we had an embarrassing critique of theocast which was we'd never even brought up yeah yeah we don't know

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I didn't know I didn't know Pastor John represented theocast yeah and he was theocast we thought we were we were talking to John and Doreen yeah so that in itself was kind of misrepresentation yeah no we didn't talk to theocast we said hey

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John is talking to Doreen let's engage with what they say we didn't know he represented he was theocast yeah didn't know that theocast personified yeah exactly all right let's get into it so this is we did some last week we're gonna do something this is what we said that it gets worse we didn't mean that to insult the brother by any means we meant it gets worse in terms of the mischaracterizations get worse and this isn't helpful ultimately so that's that's what we were saying so here we go and we want to try to provide some beneficial conversations surrounding the errors that are made here authorities to open to be obedient to be ready for every good work and to speak evil of no one and to avoid quarreling and to be gentle and show perfect courtesy to all people well it would be one thing we could be confused if you just kind of said it in one area of the

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Bible but he says it in multiple areas of the Bible even in Ephesians he talks about praying for our leaders right so if we are supposed to be taking the law and overturning governments with the law that doesn't work well if Paul is telling us to obey them so he should have saying infiltrate them he should say take over and implement this and so this this is an important element when when you look at the situation happening in the first century with the

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Apostles generally and of course the Christians at the same time just everyday Christians who were being persecuted by Rome being destroyed by roaming slaughtered by Rome you know being tied up to stakes and ratcheted pitch and lit on fire and you know

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Nero situation where he's eating Christians and just some foul stuff going on with Nero and his life was disgusting but the we mentioned last week the reason the early

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Christians were in so much trouble with Rome wasn't because Rome was this pagan Empire that just didn't like this additional addendum oh there's

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Jesus character like they didn't that's not their problem Rome's pagan you can worship whatever you please the problem was actually that those early

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Christians were making statements that were treasonous and put them in direct violation of Roman principles and that is that Caesar is

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Lord he's he's the ultimate you must yield to the Emperor as ultimate and the early Christians are saying actually no

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Jesus is Lord above Caesar and that's one thing they can't have they can't have they can't have two ultimates at war in Rome you can't have

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Caesar and his ultimacy versus this Jesus character and his ultimacy and that's what the early

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Christians were saying and that's by the way with why they were killed they were killed because they wouldn't bow to the ultimacy of Caesar Kaiser Curia Caesar is

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Lord and so actually the situation is much worse than is expressed here because actually

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Paul was instigating controversy with the Roman government in the first century that's why he was killed mm -hmm because he claimed that there was another

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King one Jesus that's why Peter and that's why the Apostles are slaughtered by Rome that's why the early

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Christians are killed by Rome because they actually were making statements that put them into direct conflict with the

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Roman government of their day and you know furthermore you you do have examples just in a

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New Testament itself of the early Apostles actually saying to rulers and authorities in their day you know

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I know you're telling me you know they're giving me like a command don't preach in his name anymore but I'm telling you

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I must obey God rather than men now if those Christians can make that statement in that time and they're being commanded by civil authorities not to not to speak anymore in Christ's name and they can actually say

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I gotta obey God rather than men what's that obey God rather than men part look like is there some objective revelation or standard somewhere that told the

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Apostles what they were supposed to stand on in terms of obeying God rather than men because that's in a

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New Testament too that's in the book of Acts where they're commanded you do this they're saying I can't do that why because God said here

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I got to obey him over your word what revelation was that same revelation that Paul refers to Timothy with the one that was the honest us all scripture profitable for instruction training and righteousness godliness do you think that counts for the government too especially and I'll shut up here when someone says you know

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I don't know if we're supposed to be overturning governments with the law first of all that is a complete misrepresentation of the theonomic position

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I I know every theonomic person I've ever read or listened to has never expressed the theonomic position in that way whatsoever and a matter of fact they take pains to say that is exactly what we're not saying so that's why

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I said this is an embarrassing critique of the law of God because I don't know anybody that said that and I dare I I defy you to find

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Bonson saying the critics of R .J. Rush Dooney saying it how about Douglas Wilson he's a he's a modern writer on the law of God and justice

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I dare you to find him saying and I dare you to find in the Puritans saying something like that no it's gospel centered it's because the gospel itself but be that as it may we talk about like bringing the authority of Christ into conflict with the culture

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I think it was God in Psalm chapter 2 the father that says to the son ask of me

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I'll give you the nations for your inheritance the very ends of the earth for your possession but then he actually says to the rulers and kings of the earth to obey the son or they'll perish so actually it's the father who says to the rulers of this world to obey his son or they're gonna perish it's not just Christians that are called to do it to say hey repent and turn to Christ trusting him for salvation and forgiveness obey

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Jesus it's not just Christians it's the father saying to the nations the Kings and saying you're gonna obey my son or you're gonna perish

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I just quickly I was gonna say I mean that's what's going on China right now China China that's why the

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Christians are in trouble there that's why they had to go underground because they're saying Jesus is Lord and frankly this sort of mentality

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I think has led to Christians and our culture becoming way too comfortable and you know and we start to just let things go let things slide here and there all it's not a big deal and then one day which we're quickly headed that direction we're gonna be in that position where we're in trouble for saying

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Jesus is Lord absolutely yeah I mean it's on to clearly prophesize that which which we see in the

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Gospels is claimed to be being fulfilled in the coming of Christ and we get that order kiss the

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Sun unless he'd be angry you're gonna all get smoked if you don't kiss the Sun and then Jesus last words to us are to go out and disciple the nation yeah this is a command in the

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Great Commission to have national impact I think that when one other confusion in the way he's applying it here is he's conflating two things that you need to distinguish between so the commit we do have a command to submit to the civil magistrate even if the civil magistrate is not a born -again

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Christian so if I'm driving down the road and I see the siren lights in my rearview mirror and I I know how fast

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I was going I need to pull over because I'm gonna submit to the civil magistrate and which I fully grant that we ought to in those instances submit but there is a there is a difference between instruction given to your present situation with an ungodly ruler over you how you're supposed to respond to his direct commands to you

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I think that if it's one that you can follow without violating your conscience you ought to submit to the magistrate if he's requiring something of you that violates your conscience if he's telling you must bow down to Caesar then you have to say too bad

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I'm not doing it so so I do think we have a we have we have an obligation that scripture gives us to be good and faithful subjects to our government but that's not the same thing as saying what we should be working for in that government or if you are that civil magistrate how ought you to be behaving so so comparatively or take some other sort of similar situations we have we have commands in scripture for how a slave is supposed to treat his owner and yet we're hoping for that institution of slavery to die we're hoping for that to go away you have commands to a woman who's married to an ungodly husband there's a certain conduct that she's supposed to have a godly and submissive conduct that will hopefully evangelize him but that no way is telling us and we think it's really great that she has this ungodly husband or we have it's really great that he has this slave master so so yeah we have an ungodly government and where there's a certain way we're supposed to behave but part of part of the goal or the teleology of that kind of behavior is to win that magistrate over and win him to Christ so that his actions are actually those of a man that kisses the

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Sun yeah you missed it I love the Ben Merkel translation of Psalm 2 was basically kiss the

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Sun or get smoked that's the

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Hebrew nosh nosh kubar pend yet enough kiss the Sun lest you get smoked yeah that's good

33:15

I love it so and just to give you I think an example and by the way we're not the standard here it's just a fresher in mind because we'd actually just drop this we we brought our whole church to the

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Phoenix City Council this is just a short clip we brought our entire church I encourage you go to Apologia Studios on YouTube it's here and we're gonna be dropping these over the next couple of weeks it was amazing

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I mean Apologia Church filled that place up and just went up one after the other and preached the gospel to the

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City Council and go watch them I mean there's not one person in there doesn't talk about Christ called a repentance faith in Christ eternal life

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I mean it's all there in our testimony to the legislators and we were demanding they obey God and establish justice and for the sake of the pre -born and we told me there's gonna be a day of judgment where they're gonna be judged for their actions that's

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Christian witness to the legislature and what's it saying it's saying these are God's standards this is

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God's law you have to obey Jesus and repent and believe in Christ so I'll give you just an example of like what what a gospel centered theonomic laced message to the legislature might look like and there's numerous of these up on our channel thank you mayor and members of the council my name is

34:32

Reverend Jeff Durbin I'm an opposition today and I'm a pastor of Apologia Church and the head of end abortion now and I'm a resident in the city of Phoenix by God's grace we're the organization that has actually put in the bills of abolition and criminalization across the

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United States of America including Louisiana Texas Arizona Pennsylvania Colorado and there's more coming we also filed the amicus brief in the

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Dobbs case that defeated Roe just an observation it's an incontrovertible fact that what's in the womb is human from conception that is not under dispute that's not debated somebody making that claim is about 50 years behind the science there's an incontrovertible fact that what's in the womb is human from the moment of conception and all humans deserve equal protection when the

35:18

Christian abolitionists fought to criminalize slavery based upon the Christian scriptures and Christian worldview they had to contend with rulers and powerful white people who just couldn't let it go they fought those rulers to dehumanize our black brothers and sisters and not offer them equal protection under the law the same thing that you're attempting to do today dehumanize the pre -born and offer them no protection history has already judged those evil people in the same way future generations will judge you and more importantly there is a day of judgment in which you'll be judged for this injustice today can you just imagine friends and fellow residents when slavery was abolished and criminalized rulers such as yourselves calling a special session to legislate or resolve to ignore reports of people beating or owning our black brothers and sisters the law doesn't work in their favor so they suggest simply ignoring it scripture says those who hate me love death nothing could be clearer than that today

36:22

I call on you to repent turn to Christ and establish justice and equal protection for these innocent pre -born human beings thank you for your time so just wanted to give an example of a practical example what does it look like when you hold the perspective of the law of God as a revelation of God's character and he defines what is just what is righteous what is holy when you hold to that perspective and like that's abiding and relevant today when you hold to the perspective that Christ has all authority in heaven and on earth today and he's the ruler of the kings of the earth today king of kings today

36:59

Lord of Lords today and you actually start saying okay I'm gonna put legs on that like what does it mean for Jesus today to be the king over the kings of the earth and the

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Lord over the Lords of the earth like if it's not if it's if you allow it to become more than a pithy slogan and say what does it actually look like we hope that these videos are an example of like well what does it look like when you bring the

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Christian gospel into conflict with the world and all of its systems not just here in this issue of abortion but even in the area of education like education too like how do you bring the

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Christian worldview and the authority of Christ and the truthfulness of God's Word into the area of education where you're raising little heroes up and filling out their worldview in the way that they see the world like how do you do that so that's what it that's what we mean you don't see us going in there with swords and knives and military might and saying yeah y 'all gonna obey

37:55

Jesus now or get smoked you know you know it's not how it looks like people people come to Christ everywhere because of the grace of God the illumination of the

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Holy Spirit and faith in Christ that's how people come to Jesus but you know

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I think and this is this is where I'll shut up I always find it mind -boggling that's like you'll hear people saying like we need to bring the gospel everywhere it's all about the gospel it's all about the gospel like we don't need to the government stuff it's like so the government anybody involved in the government is off -limits from the claims of Christ you know that's

38:27

I'm saying like it seems like such a like a almost like built up like a noble thing like we're about the gospel like we wouldn't want to impose like God's rules out there on like government like that's that's none of our business really we don't really have anything to do with that like we're about the gospel and preaching faith in Christ it's like so they don't get the gospel over there like they don't get the claims of Christ there and the call to repentance there like so they get abandoned from like to all

38:57

Christian truth is like not relevant to them because they're in this weird realm of government and Jesus has nothing to say about law or morality also just just in terms of effective angel evangelism historically it actually worked the reverse

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I know at least when the gospel came to pagan Anglo -Saxon England the strategy was and I think this is true much much of Europe the strategy was always you go and you preach you locate the king you locate the chief you locate the prince you preach the gospel to him he converts and then the gospel is spread throughout his kingdom but they always went for the king first and and on that strategy the

39:36

West was Christianized it's strange now that we've abandoned that strategy and we don't seem to have a yeah we don't need to call them you don't see new nations come yeah we don't need to call them to repentance of faith say

39:47

I mean same thing happened in Hawaii yeah yeah the kingdom the kingdom of Hawaii within 20 years you know they have like literally the

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Hawaiian Constitution saying no law of the Hawaiian Kingdom will be at variance with the laws of Jehovah God that's kind of specific

40:01

God that's within 20 years of missionary work is that's exactly right like you know they go to they go to the very top and say you you need to come to Christ right you need to trust in Jesus and that's exactly right and then it just moves on down the tribe well this is where the two -kingdom theology comes in and why it's dangerous because it makes us clear distinction where it's like Christ has no authority over the civil realm he's not concerned with that exactly yeah so yeah and it does it removes the light of God's Word and the light of Christ from that realm and boy are we feeling it today mm -hmm we're feeling it bad well

40:36

I think I think the other thing moving down a little more practical is one of the dangers of that is you get that two -kingdom theology and you start to get a two -kingdom life where where you have a more and more compartmentalized kind of faith where faith is something that's expressed on Sunday morning but nine -to -five at work you have a career that requires that it feels like I have a career that requires

40:57

I'd be a certain kind of man which is rude abrupt abrasive combative and you're this kind of person all all the time at work or in traffic when you're driving but your

41:08

Christianity doesn't apply to that because you've put it in this one little corner and I think then you start to slide down into all kinds of other sins because you've restricted the law of God in your own heart it's not holding you back anymore yeah very powerful yeah so let's take a look at we're filling this out so much hopefully that's a benefit like we're letting a little bit of talk

41:31

I'm trying to give you as much as we possibly can because it's an important subject and by we're not gonna do all of this but we think it's a good conversation to have and we'll let him talk a little more here goes back to the argument of Matthew 28 where it says go into all the world make disciples teaching the nation's you don't hear

41:47

Paul standing up against two Roman governments telling them you need to be underneath God's law you just don't see that really that's it again it's interesting to Caesar yeah right it's it is so interesting that if you read the book of Acts you see something very very different in terms of how

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Paul is interacting with the world how he appeals to scripture as foundational and ultimate the things that he's saying that got him in so much trouble with Rome like what what the

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Jews were using against him and what like same thing with Jesus and like appealing to Rome this is a this is an important conversation to have because we forget that the basic Christian confession of Christ having all authority in heaven and on earth and having he's

42:36

Lord over Caesar like that's what got them in trouble so like this whole idea of like he's not you know he's not speaking to government officials sort of a thing and like you know making appeals so you gotta obey

42:49

God's law here's the question I hear I think the simplest way I can put it you have to forgive me cuz I'm exhausted but here's the simplest way

42:55

I can put it if the early Christians are slaughtered and killed and martyred because of their confession that Christ is

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Lord what about that confession that Christ is Lord was so offensive to Caesar it was that Caesar had to obey

43:12

Jesus yeah exactly okay obey Jesus in what like in to what degree do we did did

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Paul and the early Christians die for that confession like to what degree does Caesar have to obey

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Jesus like completely and everything you think that like you think Paul was saying Caesar just half like just half of what

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Jesus wants from you like if you could just give Jesus that like no they were saying Jesus is ultimate he has all authority and like you must obey

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Jesus we'll be good citizens will be good Roman citizens but we will not recognize the ultimacy of Caesar over Jesus like whatever

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Christ commands that is an opposition to Caesar we will obey

43:54

Christ over Caesar every time and that was that's what was so offensive so I would say like you can fill this out a little more but I would say at a real basic level that argument is very easy to take down the early

44:05

Christians were killed for their confession that Christ is Lord over Caesar which meant that it was

44:11

Christ's law over Caesars law and what was the law that Christ promoted well clearly he wasn't an opposition to Moses yeah so I was just thinking of Acts 26 when

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Paul shows up before Agrippa and Festus you know it's pretty clear that he's going to go straight to the

44:29

Kings to the leaders and tell them you yourself must be saved and you have to govern like this as well yeah

44:35

I mean it's kind of it's right there I mean you also I mean we could do this for days but I think on the last one did you read

44:41

Colossians yeah question one Colossians chapter 1 he pulled it up while I pull something over here real fast you read again

44:49

Colossians chapter 1 in terms of how far -reaching did the Apostle Paul think this was gonna go this

44:57

Christian message the claims and authority of Jesus when we think about what

45:03

Paul himself actually said either no I was in the wrong on the problem so I think

45:10

I was accidentally in the commentary and while they were here I got it sorry apologize in first Corinthians sorry

45:17

Colossians 1 15 he's the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation for by him all things were created in heaven and on earth visible and visible whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things were created through him and what for him every institution everything in creation through him and for him and he is before all things and in him all things hold together and he is ahead of the body the church he has the beginning the first born from the dead then in everything he might be preeminent for in him all the fullness of God was polite pleased to dwell and through him to reconcile to himself all things whether on earth or in heaven making peace by the blood of his cross and so you can continue reading here this is

46:05

I think one of my favorite sections of scripture like Colossians 1 2 & 3 is just amazing but that the picture that Paul and the

46:13

Apostles had the portrait they had of like the kingdom of Christ his reign and his authority very different than we're used to today hearing about today in terms of we compartmentalize the

46:22

Christian message in the Christian faith we privatized the Bible and what's ecclesiastical let's

46:28

Joe say said we ecclesiastical the Bible yes we've ecclesiastical the Bible we've basically made the

46:33

Bible the church book like it's for the church it's between that like those walls that's where it belongs it doesn't belong out in the public square and culture and society like the the authoritative claims of Christ really end at the church door that's how we see it today we've ecclesiastical the

46:50

Bible and that is just certainly not the message of the New Testament itself or the Old Testament promises of his kingdom so not only of Paul but of anyone you go read the whole book of Acts all of the disciples you don't ever see them doing that and so I think it's ever see them like pressing the crown rights of Jesus Christ against the governing authorities how about when they when they get take a beating for Jesus and they're commanded not to preach in his name which law are they appealing to when they reject the laws of men when they say we must obey

47:21

God rather than men yeah when they say we must obey God's law over man's law what were they appealing to the stipulated law of God the revelation of God so this whole idea of like they never like press the crown rights of Christ and like the law of God versus their governing authorities it's like you don't get six chapters into the book before you start seeing that in the book of Acts or even

47:44

John the Baptist John the Baptist confronted his day it's not lawful for you to have your brother's wife yeah and yeah

47:52

I mean you can know you can spend days doing this but it's just that the claim is not it's not true it's not true to say

47:59

I maybe we've misinterpreted the purposes of the law I think it's a gross misinterpretation now what did

48:09

I say before it's always healthy to say what why is someone doing this do you and I like to see babies murdered no oh no no

48:17

I've been pro -life actually before I was saved I was pro - life yeah that's it's horrible right I don't like to see crime

48:23

I don't like to see men and women mistreated I don't like all of those things are horrible so okay quick thing by what standard do you call those things horrible so here you have a person who's attempting to denigrate the idea maybe that's too strong of a word okay he's dissing the idea of the law of God's abiding relevance today in New Covenant time and in our lives today's he's dissing that idea like we don't want that but then he has to stop himself because he loves

48:51

Jesus and he's a brother in the Lord and he can't help it he I don't have to I don't like to see this evil go on in the world around me all the crime of murder and people mistreating others and here's the question

49:01

Pastor John by what standard do you know yeah making a very strong legal determination and rooting it in a implicit mutual kind of dislike of something like we all sort of dislike that and therefore we're gonna make that a law that's a really scary thing to base your law you'd like to hope that this is based on an objective but objective standard but you got to be able to cite where that standards coming from yes something transcendent yeah like if you don't have a law above the king the king will become the law right you don't have a law above your legislature there your legislature will become the law if you don't have a law above the community then the community will become the law they'll define it for themselves and so that's you know what you get the concept that's come through church history thank

49:48

God those guys did this doctrinal developments through history and scripture and all the rest

49:54

Lex Rex exactly right like the law is King what they were referring to there was the transcendent nature of the law it transcends

50:02

Kings it transcends time it transcends location it's transcendent it's

50:07

God's law it comes from his own mouth and so yeah that's the key issue is like you're not gonna get any common agreement ultimately in a sinful world because it's gonna break down at some point like for example you can find common agreement at certain points in time in terms of like let's just use our own our own experience

50:26

I'll just say this one thing common agreement that say like there is a perverse form of human sexuality and it looks like this and there's

50:34

PSA commercials done about it in the 50s of like you know men with men women with women like there was a certain point where like there was a consensus like yeah you can't do that by the way where that consensus come from kind of an evangelized culture a culture that had impacted been impacted by the biblical worldview but in the 50s you've got

50:52

PSA public service announcements about the homosexual but look it only took a generation and now the consensus is sort of like it's the other direction yeah because they're not appealing to a transcendent law above them they're not going to Moses they're not going to Leviticus they don't want to listen to it they won't go to Paul or Moses they're just like no we've decided we feel like this is right this is good we're not gonna appeal to anything above us or below us we're actually gonna point directly at ourselves we're not gonna even try to appeal above we're gonna say no it's me me me me me me and so that's the that's the problem with this pursuit yeah you know

51:26

I want the law of God I know the law of God is good but yeah you have

51:31

Christians who are saying like we live in a nation and we're just doing horrendous things and you know

51:36

I think homosexuality is prison and yeah it's sex on the side of marriage is prison it's all horrible right it's all horrible stuff and so it's intriguing when someone says but it's

51:45

God's purpose and God's mission that the law which we love that the law govern the nations and so every nation should basically be a

51:55

Christian nation that's governed by God that okay so I'm gonna try to go as quickly as possible we gotta end quickly

52:04

I would say that a person making that claim shows and I don't mean this offensively ignorance ignore ing ignorance the text from the

52:15

Old Testament Revelation that clearly speak to what the Messiah's mission in the world was so for example you've got of course salvation forgiveness for the nations you've got the knowledge of God covering the earth like the waters cover the sea you do have all those passages from the

52:29

Old Testament you have Psalm 110 1 the most popular verse in a New Testament from the old that he must reign until he's put all of his enemies under his feet as a footstool for his feet and that's where Christ that look

52:40

Paul says in first Corinthians 15 that's where Jesus is now he's on the Davidic throne reigning today putting all of his enemies under his feet but this whole idea of like you know we don't expect like the nations to love

52:51

God's law and to promote God's law like that's that's just we just don't see that the well you know

52:57

I'm sorry the Old Testament makes a pretty abundantly clear you can start in Genesis 49 10 the

53:03

Shiloh who is coming the one who is coming to him is gonna be the obedience of the nations what were they gonna obey again like they're gonna obey

53:11

Jesus but but like what and you can continue to go down the line in where you know Psalm 2 you know the

53:16

Father says obey the Son who gets smoked Psalm chapter 2 that's beautiful but you also have

53:23

Isaiah chapter 2 the reign of the Messiah was gonna have all the nations drawn up to God's mountain and then it says the

53:29

Torah like the law the Torah God's law was gonna go forth from the people of God so like the law is literally a constituent element of the kingdom of the

53:41

Messiah in history and by the way if if our brother here is a mill then he would agree with Post Mills that the kingdom of God has arrived in history yeah it has arrived in history it's it's ongoing right

53:56

Post Mill and I'm they'll agree with that like the Christ brought the Messianic Kingdom has promised on time Post Mill I'm ill we're brothers in that in that respect but it's question of like well what happens now well like so we got to deal with the verses

54:07

Isaiah chapter 2 says the law of God goes forth from the people of God what is it the Torah or how about Isaiah 42

54:13

Isaiah 42 says that the Messiah this Messianic figure is gonna come into the world he's gonna be gentle lowly you know no burning you know faintly burning wick you know that that passage but then it says he will faithfully bring forth justice on the earth and the coastlands wait for his

54:29

Torah isn't it amazing that the promises the Messiah's kingdom actually have salvation forgiveness life and then justice law all that like it's it's it's it's a constituent element of the whole thing it's comprehensive it's the whole world it's every area of life that's what the

54:47

Jews were expecting because that's what the text says and you can go on for days here in terms of like the promise was that the new covenant itself would come with the blessings of the law of God and if you say like you know yeah but it's internalized now yeah and that law that's internalized is still objectively revealed by God that's a key thing so it says now it's in your heart yeah which law right like the revelation of God it's still an objective law like I saw a cultist yesterday

55:19

I saw Sean McCraney you know abandoned abandoned every meaningful essential part of the Christian faith

55:24

I saw him say like no now we have in a new covenant he says we got the law of God on our hearts so now in the new covenant that this is all subjective and I thought what

55:34

I was like like you know like you sort of like pull over the the cop car like pull them and like hold on pull over pull over actually

55:43

Jeremiah 31 31 says it's on your heart the law definite article is going to be on your heart which means that it is most certainly not subjective because it's the law which was the revelation of God on the hearts of human beings sorry that's right

55:59

I mean it's again we mentioned his last week but it's part of the Great Commission like what what is it all that he has commanded what does that mean just some of the law you know no

56:12

I mean it's all in and it goes again back to why are the coastlands waiting for the law the idea is the gospel starts and and goes forth right until all the coastlands have been touched by the law and and the gospel and so like there they go hand in hand it's connected

56:28

I think part of it is we we don't spend any time actually reading our Old Testament we don't spend any time reading the law so we come up with these gross characterizations mischaracterizations of what it is and so anytime law comes up and I think you see that in some of this there's this idea that it immediately means external non -spirit given human effort to be a certain kind of good yeah rather than what scripture describes is law is describing the character of God and what the love of God looks like and one of things

57:00

I think is really striking is evangelicals if we read our Old Testament at all we tend to read the

57:06

Psalms because it's very sort of passionate emotional devotional language but when

57:12

David is writing in the Psalms and he'll be talking about his love for the Word of God what's the word that David had it's the it's the

57:19

Pentateuch I mean he had the law and he had this deep understanding this real devotion to to the law and an understanding this was describing the love of God the righteousness of God and how beautiful it was when that then is exhibited in your own life in the way you love

57:36

God and the way you love your neighbor the law that the first tablet of the law commanding how you love God right and the second describing how you love your neighbor it's love because God is love but that's what the law is describing for us that's right that's so good yeah and the end and then the rest of the law becomes it even further as explication of what it looks like to love

57:54

God and love neighbor in terms of the principle of the preservation of life wherever it is the parapet around the roof of the house you know how do you love your neighbor preserve their life yeah you know how do you love their neighbor don't move your boundary marker like don't take their property don't steal like that like don't steal like like to what degree like don't move that over like it's theirs don't don't inch it should inch its way over you know you've even got like Jesus said like all the law and the prophets are built upon love for God love for neighbor and that means like every part of it is to some degree is love

58:27

God love neighbor how is that there I mean you've got stuff in God's law that has to do with like collateral proper use of collateral down payments we're doing that this this

58:41

Sunday like a sermon from the Proverbs going into the by the way I can't preach from the

58:47

Proverbs and explain the wisdom of God from the Proverbs without actually going to God's law yeah because there's stuff that like Solomon says in Proverbs you'll see it and you'll be like I don't know what in the world that means and then you go oh wait if I actually appealed to the law that was given

59:03

I understand how like Solomon's applying this principle of wisdom in terms of usury or the issue of like co -signing and becoming you know standing up and saying you know

59:15

I'll take I'll take responsibility for the debt if they don't do it anyway like I don't know where I was going with that but the law of God is good

59:22

I'm losing my mind now so okay hey you know Luke we'll continue this conversation because it's just really really good that the the mischaracterizations get worse there's there's more face plans in terms of like that's not what we believe and I don't know anybody that teaches that so there's there's those moments but it gets

59:44

I think a little better in terms of like you begin to discover some of the traditions that like say Doreen our sister that we love

59:50

Doreen she has a tradition a way that she sees particular text yeah and so when someone says like hey you know the world's gonna you know the gospel the

59:59

Great Commission is actually going to be accomplished yeah and she's like well wait a second like you know there's gonna be wars and rumors of wars and there's gonna be famines and pestilence and play it's gonna get worse everyone hang on and I'm sitting over here going yeah

01:00:12

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and Mark 13 Jesus says all that's gonna happen before they all died yeah they all died and isn't interesting like early

01:00:21

Christian fathers and apologists were appealing to the very text she's saying our future to us they were saying that best proof

01:00:27

Jesus is Messiah because it actually happened already like we're like oh like we got to unpack this it's like what what traditions are we bringing to the text and and this all final

01:00:36

I'll end on this even to this degree of like not just what eschatological traditions but what traditions surrounding our view of the law yeah are we bringing to this conversation right now

01:00:46

I think it's important to address and we'll do some more sweet do you have anything you want to say you want to add no this was really good and hopeful

01:00:52

I know a lot of people were blessed by last week so good keep it going Ben we love you man and we love all you're doing it's beautiful and and I'd like to give you this last moment here tell everyone what you want to know about NSA where to go what to do definitely check us out and to say dot edu follow us on Twitter Instagram Facebook we're putting out a lot of really good media it's a lot of interesting stuff to follow

01:01:18

I would particularly relevant to this conversation NSA last year founded the Hale Institute of law and policy directed by Jeff Schaefer and if you go and look at the

01:01:27

Hale Institute you will see some profoundly insightful wrestling with what it looks like to actually articulate the vision that we're talking about Jeff is a brilliant mind and doing really good work here and there's hopefully increasingly good material coming out on that on that web page actually brother check that out thanks man yeah thanks for having me here again uh hopefully we'll see you in Moscow sometime soon yeah yeah get on up there it's always good to go to Moscow Ben's actually about to record some

01:01:51

Academy I know Academy for apology all access and all access all access partners we want to bless you you make everything we do possible for the thousands of people that are coming to Christ out of Mormonism the babies that are being saved whatever it is it's only happening because we have partners just like you making all this possible and we want to bless you so we got plans like for next year to make it a real blessing to be a part of all access so we've got

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