July 31, 2023 Show with Jerry Johnson on “Christonomy: How Do We Demonstrate Our Love of Christ?”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this last day of July, July 31st, 2023.

And I first of all want to thank all of my Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners who are faithful, loyal prayer warriors for me, my family, and this program.

I just received a call moments before the show started from my brother,

Andy, in the hospital whom many of you have been praying for. He recently developed pneumonia, had a kidney infection, and there was a very urgently needed procedure that needed to be done to drain very toxic urine out of his system.

And that was just accomplished, and it must have been very successful because he was strong enough to call me himself and ask that I bring him chili when this program is over.

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Andy, who is 75, and pray that he returns to his nursing home soon and is well taken care of.

I will keep you updated as to his health progress even after today. But I'm thrilled to have as a returning guest a very dear friend and a very generous supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jerry Johnson.

He is a Reformed Christian apologist, a documentarian, and producer of the successful DVD series

Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism. Today we're going to be discussing

Christonomy, how do we demonstrate our love for Christ. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jerry Johnson.

Thank you, Brother Chris. Good to be here, sir. And how many years ago was it that the

Amazing Grace DVD series on the history and theology of Calvinism was launched?

In November, it'll be 19 years. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah, that's funny.

I have time flies when you're having fun. Yeah, I can remember when it first came out.

Chris. Yes, can you hear me? Yeah, I did want to correct you on one thing. There's no such thing as a happy Monday.

Well, you just reminded me of that song, I don't like Mondays.

I don't like Mondays. No, I don't like Mondays. I will confess.

Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. I hate Mondays. I believe that song was the

Boomtown Rats, if I'm not mistaken. But anyway, I don't know if you have coined this phrase.

I don't believe I had ever heard of it until you suggested we discuss it. And the term

I'm speaking about, or the word I'm speaking about, is Christonomy. Actually, after Googling it,

I saw it twice being used either by the individuals themselves or their biographers.

But one was in relationship to Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and I can't remember right now the other one.

But tell us about this phrase that you wanted to use to highlight today's interview,

Christonomy. All right. Well, let me give you a little background on it.

And I don't want to pick on dispensationalists. I think your listening audience knows that I am not a dispensationalist.

And over the course of many years, I had people tell me, especially dispensationalists, they don't follow the law of God.

They follow the law of Christ, which is the law of love. And I would ask them to define that, and they never could define it.

What is the law of love? How do you do it? And it seems to me like what they are saying is that they are confusing love with sentimentality.

Like you see two puppies playing in the grass, and that's love. And love is really more of an action, if you will.

It is not getting gooey feelings when you see two puppies playing.

And I like puppies playing. But that is not love. That is sentimentality.

And a lot of people have that the wrong way. They think that love is, they've reduced it to be a sentimentality or an emotion.

And that was something that always bothered me. I did this lecture series called

The Death of Death and the Death of Love. And that was, of course, a takeoff from, what is it?

John Owen's Death of Death and the Death of Christ. And a lot of people have reduced love to this emotion or this feeling.

I'm not against emotions or feelings. It's just that we've got to remember love is not an emotion.

It is a state of mind. And so that is something Paul could say while he was in prison.

He had the joy of the Lord. Was he happy about being in prison? I doubt it.

But we need to define what is love. And while I was reading through the scriptures,

I came across this idea that in order to fulfill the law of love, which actually

Romans 13 .10 says, that we're supposed to love one another.

He who loves another fulfills the law of Christ. Or it actually says, has fulfilled the law.

But Christ is the one speaking of scripture. So I thought about this long and hard.

Because I asked a guy one time who said he wasn't under the law of God.

He was under the law of love, the law of Christ. And I asked him, can you take the name of the

Lord in vain and not really worry about it, not worry about the consequences or anything?

And he said to me, well, I theoretically could. And I said, okay, go ahead and do it.

Don't make it theoretical. Just do it. Take the law, the Lord's name in vain.

And he wouldn't do it, praise the Lord. But anyway, that got me thinking on this.

And that got me thinking about what I call Christonomy, which is the law of Christ.

It's the law of love. But how do you really express the law of Christ, the law of love?

And I kept going back thinking, man, how does one do that?

How does one talk about the law of love? I already mentioned

Romans chapter 13, verse 10. And, of course, the only way to do that is to go back to Christ's statement.

And one place I have it pulled up is Matthew 27 or 22, 37.

Jesus said unto him, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.

This is the first and great commandment. And the second is likened to it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

On these two commandments hang all of the law and the prophets. Now, I was thinking that Christ sums up the law of God with those two commandments, love

God and love your neighbor. How do you do that? That was the question that was bothering me.

Go ahead. I was just going to say, so love is more than just a noun, as you stated earlier, a state of mind.

It's also a verb. It's an action verb. It is an action.

And so what did Christ always go back to? He went back to the moral law as found in the

Ten Commandments. And if you look at it, the first four are our duties to God.

The second six, the second tablet, are our duties to man. And that is the way we show our love to God and we show our love to our fellow man.

We do not have any other gods before God.

God is it. That is the way we do it. The second one is, oh, man,

I'm having a senior moment here. I know the Ten Commandments, but all of a sudden

I'm having, like I said, a senior moment. Well, I want to remind our listeners that our dear brother

Jerry suffered a massive stroke, and it wasn't all that long ago that he has returned to Iron Troupe and Zion Radio as a guest because of a gradual progress of improvement health -wise, and that would include memory and so on.

I just wanted to mention that to our audience in case they're wondering. And I know that you are in no way embarrassed by that.

In fact, we actually did a program on your situation.

Yeah, but, brother, I will tell you this. The senior moment has nothing to do with the stroke.

It is just a senior moment. So which of the commandments are you looking for?

I've got it. The second commandment is thou shall not make any graven image.

So really what the first commandment is, we don't have any false gods before him.

He is the only God. The second one is we do not reduce

God to anything made with our hands, whether it's mental, whether it's physical.

I could say corporeal and incorporeal. The third commandment is remember the

Sabbath day, or is that the fourth commandment? That's the fourth commandment. The third commandment is we don't take any of the titles in the scriptures and use them in a way outside of their context.

Taking the Lord's name in vain. Say it again, brother, I'm sorry. Taking the Lord's name in vain.

Yes, taking the Lord's name in vain. And being flippant with it, or even vulgar. Yeah, that could be anything.

I mean, whether you say the big one or,

I mean, just anything. If you use Lord as an expression, that is not appropriate.

The fourth commandment is the Sabbath day. We have to remember that God created the universe in six days, and on the seventh day he rested.

And I think that that is the way we show love towards God, is remember his commandments.

Then when we talk about our love towards our fellow man, we have to remember that God put people in authority over us.

Even if we work by ourselves or work for ourselves, there are still policemen, there are still mayors, there are still our pastor, our elders.

We need to give them their proper respect. We don't kill our neighbor, we don't steal from them, we don't covet, we don't bear false witness, anything like that.

That is the way we show our love for our fellow man.

Now, remember, not only does it have thou shalt not, the implication is the opposite.

And that is the action. How do we show our love for God and our love for our fellow man?

So we do the opposite. If we don't murder our neighbor, we actually, that is something, the positive,

I was thinking of murder. So if we're not bearing false witness against our neighbor, we tell the truth about our neighbor.

That is the way. If we don't covet and we don't envy, then the way we practice the positive, if you will, is we praise our neighbor when

God has given them something. And really, that is how we fulfill the law of love, the law of Christ.

And that is what I call Christonomy. That's a good word for it.

And just to give a little caveat, obviously there are dispensationalists who would agree with a lot of what you said, because John MacArthur, for example, one of the reasons he wrote the

Gospel according to Jesus was because of the very things that you just mentioned, that the teaching of the law had completely fallen out of favor with multitudes of Christians.

And I know that Dr. MacArthur is not a Sabbatarian, but he does believe that nine of the

Ten Commandments are still applicable and will always be applicable in the church.

Right. Now, before we run down too many rabbit trails, let me say this.

John MacArthur's book, what did you call it? The Gospel According to Jesus. Gospel According to Jesus.

That was like a breath of fresh air. Right. I mean, I can remember

I read that book probably 25, 30 years ago. Yeah. And I can remember because really in the circles

I was running at the time, there was a lot of that and I couldn't make a jive with Scripture.

And I read that book and I thought, man, this finally, somebody gets it.

Because I will tell you this, there was a Puritan and I don't know if I remember his name, but he used to say, the law is not the gospel, but henceforth the gospel is not lawless.

And I could remember reading that quote and thinking, man, that is so good.

That is so true. The law is not the gospel, but the gospel is not lawless.

Amen. So, we do need to fulfill the law of love. And again, we don't need to reduce love to some type of emotion or sentimentality.

We need to understand that it is an action. We actually, if we do one that says, thou shalt not, the implication is that we do something different, thou shalt.

Yes. Just as in Paul's commands to husbands, that we are to love our wives as Christ loved the church.

There was a specific way that we are to love. Now, I would say this, because I often chide men who believe that, you know, they always like to quote the passage that says wives should submit to their husbands.

And that is true. But husbands have a tendency to think that that means, oh, honey, if you're out in a park and somebody attacks you,

I would give my life for you. That is theoretical love. All right.

That is not what the Bible means. The Bible means actually putting her needs above your own.

So, that is hard to do. I will admit it. I have not always done it.

I wish I had. But that is not all you are called to do is theoretically lay down your life.

It is a service that you lay down your life. You do it in everything.

And, I mean, that's why we hold a door open for a woman. We pull out her chair.

We open her car door. Things like that, because we want to be servants.

Amen. And when we pull out her chair, we have to make sure she sits down on the chair. Thank the

Lord I have never pulled it out too far. Because I'm sure

I would hear about that. And, obviously, you know, this is the kind of thing where people will take their errant theology and they will force it into their belief system.

They will isagit the scriptures. And they will define love in a way that they would never accept for themselves.

For instance, if their spouse, although saying that she loved him, was constantly committing serial adultery, unrepentantly, and she refused to say anything kind to him, she refused to cook for him, she refused to do anything to keep the house in order, everyone, including that husband, would say, this woman doesn't love me.

Go ahead. No, I was going to say that that is a fruit of the love. Those things don't make the woman the wife, but they are an evidence that the wife loves him.

Right. Yeah. And I would say that is correct. You know, and, unfortunately, men expect their wives to love them, but a lot of times we don't love them back, not the way the

Bible tells us to love them. And the Bible tells us the best way to love them is to be a servant leader.

Amen. Well, let's go to our first commercial break. If anybody has a question for Jerry Johnson on Christonomy, how do we demonstrate our love for Christ?

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That's royaldiadem .com. Mention Chris Arns and Divine Trap and Zion Radio. We're now back with Jerry Johnson, and we are discussing

Christonomy. How do we demonstrate our love of Christ? And, Jerry, I don't know if you completed the first portion of what you had to say, but we do have an anonymous listener with a question.

Let me know if you want me to move on to the listener. Let me say this one thing. I've got to tell you this story.

So you remember when George Roy Moore was a circuit court judge, and he had the

Ten Commandments hanging in his courthouse? Yes. Yes, I do. And there was a big brouhaha.

People were all over the place. It was kind of like a circus. And the local news crew was going around interviewing people, and there was this one guy there, and what he said was so profound.

I want to share it with people. But the news crew, the lady asked him, so what do you think about all of this?

And the guy said, you know, I don't understand why these

Christians are so upset because they want to remove the Ten Commandments from a courtroom wall they removed them from the church wall years ago, and they didn't say a thing.

And I was like, wow, God still speaks out of the mouth of a jackass. But he was right.

He was right. Obviously, he could have been. I don't know who this person was.

He could have been a Christian. He could have been using sarcasm to rebuke the church that he was a part of.

Yeah, that is possible. But the idea I got was he really didn't have a dog in the fight.

Right. But I thought that was so profound. Because really, the church had,

I mean, there are a lot of them that they never talk about the Ten Commandments. And really, the

Ten Commandments, the purpose of them, I really believe, although I do believe they reflect

God's holy character, I also, I'm going to slaughter Spurgeon's quote, but Spurgeon said the

Ten Commandments are like the looking glass that make you know that you need a savior.

And really, the Westminster Confession Atticism and the Baptist Confession of 1689 say the same thing.

And when we take God's commandments out of the equation, we take out one of the biggest tools for showing people that they need a savior and they need a

Lord. And by the way, not to get too much into the Lordship controversy, it was years ago

I did a search of it. And I got to remember, you know how many times

Christ is called Savior in the New Testament. It was like 26 times.

Do you know how many times it was called Lord in the New Testament? It was over 1 ,000 times.

And it was dark. I mean, the image itself, the comparison was astronomical.

So I often tell people that the Bible calls us to make

Jesus Lord. And when we do, then he becomes our savior.

And that is what we've really got to remember. I know a lot of times people are saying, make

Jesus your savior. No, make him your Lord. He needs to be

Lord of your life. If you don't have Jesus as Lord, you don't have him as Savior.

And, in fact, he is your Lord, whether you make him one or not, because he'll be the

Lord that saves you or the Lord that casts you into the lake of fire. And remember the passage, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is

Savior? No, that Jesus Christ is Lord. Amen.

All right. Go ahead and read that question, brother. Okay. The anonymous listener says,

I'm remaining anonymous because I am in the middle of an intense battle in love with a very precious loved one of mine who believes that she can love

Jesus Christ without any connection to the church. I have reminded her of what our

Lord Jesus said to Simon Peter when he kept repeating the question to Simon Peter, Do you love me?

And the answers kept coming back to Jesus, Of course I do. Jesus did not give any kind of a mushy, gushy, sentimental response.

He commanded Peter to tend my lambs, and he also said shepherd my sheep or feed my sheep and tend my sheep.

These were activities that he was to do to demonstrate his love for Christ.

So my point is, is that isn't how we treat our brothers and sisters in Christ and even how we love the church itself a reflection of how we love

Christ? Yes, that's an excellent question or comment or both. And that also,

I think, is connected with Saul on the road to Damascus.

He was struck blind, and Saul was wondering why, and Jesus said,

Why do you persecute me? Even though Saul was persecuting the church. Right. But anyway, pick up where I left off there.

Yeah, I would say, now first let me comment. You probably saw a post on Facebook I did recently where I contrast the

God that reality is or heaven is a reality.

The same book says hell is a reality. The same book that talks about the wrath of God.

Oh, I'm sorry. The love of God also talks about the wrath of God. The book that talks about the mercy of God also talks about the justice of God.

The thing I find really amazing is how many people on Facebook, even though they know somebody that lived like the devil all their life and they died, they're always in heaven.

Have you ever noticed that? Right. And the thing that gets me is nobody believes they're in hell or they're going to go to hell or that their loved ones are in hell.

I remember when I was very young in my Christian walk, I had this preacher, old guy, said to me, said if we really love people, we will tell them about hell.

That's right. Now, you know, the thing is, the thing that, like I said, that always amazes me is nobody believes they're going to go there.

Nobody believes their loved ones are there. How many times do I read, oh, hello to my daughter in heaven, and,

I mean, she had three children by three different men, was never married, and I don't know her spiritual state.

She never went to church, never did anything for the body of Christ, which is the church, and, of course, she's now in heaven, according to this person or the son that overdosed on drugs, you know, and I tell my wife it amazes me how many times

I see that. Now, I would not go out of my way to tell them that their loved one is in hell because I don't know, but I will tell them this.

If they have never received Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, then

I can't give them any type of hope that their loved one is in heaven.

I will not do it. And, in fact, I think that it's also the time is most well spent by directing the mourning person over their own future and eternal destiny.

Yes, I would agree. I would agree, and that is one of the things.

A few years ago, I preached a sermon from a guy who had overdosed, and that's what

I told his family. I really did the funeral service more on their need to repent and make

Jesus their Lord and Savior than I talked about him, and I knew, I mean, we had counseled together many times.

He had a drug problem, and there were many times he would come into my office and I would talk with him about it, and, brother,

I could tell you, he knew a lot of the scriptures. He had read the Puritans, and why did it not click?

I don't know. Do I know he's in hell? No, I don't. Do I know he's in heaven?

No, I don't. But I will tell you this one thing that Dr. Kennedy said to me in the

Amazing Grace documentary. When I was interviewing him, he said, I'm going to try not to slaughter his words.

He said, nobody in hell, let me think how he said it.

Everybody in hell deserves to be there, and nobody in heaven deserves to be there.

Let me take it back. Nobody in hell should be surprised that they're there, and nobody in heaven deserves to be there.

So I hope I said it right that time. Yes, you did. So, but really the thing that always amazes me, nobody believes they're going to hell, and I believe that is a trick of the devil, if you will.

He wants to make everybody think they're going to heaven, and that way nobody has to make

Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior, and I will admit, my church is not the perfect church.

They do a lot of things wrong according to my view. You know, but the thing is, they are the body of Christ, and I love them for that.

And I may be the wrong one. I don't know. But we're talking about, you know, very minor things.

We all agree on the major things. But that is one of the things that we need to remember.

We have to love the body of Christ. We want to be gathered together with them. I would say, is it possible to be a

Christian and never go to church? Well, the thief on the cross never went to church.

I don't know if he went to the synagogue, but he never went to church. So theoretically, it's possible.

But you better be nailed to a cross is the reason you cannot go, because salvation is in the body of Christ, and it is through Christ our

Lord. Hallelujah. And isn't it amazing how even the

Church of Rome typically will say at a funeral or wake about the departed loved one?

Now, I've got to announce a caveat. I think that purgatory is a lie from the pit of hell.

It's one of the most darkest or most dark, I should say, heresies, because it is an absolute mockery of the finished work of Christ.

But because of the fact of sentimentalism and most priests wanting to be more concerned over the feelings of the family and the people gathered than they are over their never -dying souls, they will speak of this departed loved one as if they are in heaven, and you're wondering, wait a minute,

I thought you people believed in purgatory. Not only are you not talking about the possibility of hell, you're not even talking about your own theological teaching about purgatory, and you're saying that this person is in heaven, and the priest very often doesn't even know the person who's died, just like the people that they marry.

So I just thought I'd throw that in there, because I hear it over and over and over again when I attend funerals and wakes.

Well, see, my belief is that the Church of Rome, what they're doing is, if you're a

Roman Catholic, then you're going to go to heaven just because you're a

Roman Catholic. You might have to spend some time in purgatory to work out your venial sins, but everybody can work them out, because all

Roman Catholics are going to go to purgatory first. Jesus died for your mortal sins, but the venial sins, you've got to pay for those in purgatory.

And I would agree with you. That is an affront to Christ. Oh, it certainly is.

We have to experience punishment ourselves to add to the insufficient punishing that our

Lord received as the Father poured out His wrath upon Him, and the whole concept of a genuine perpetuation of sin is really lost and contradicted in this nonsense about purgatory.

By the way, if you ever use the term Christonomy, you owe me $5 each time you use it.

So I will tell you this, I will tell you this, because a lot of people will ask me, is that a play on Greg Bonson's Theonomy?

And, you know, there was a time I kind of flirted with Theonomy.

I liked Bonson, he's a great guy. I actually never met him, so I should make that clear.

But I will tell you, one of the things that I really loved

Theonomists for was their high view of Scripture. But as I read

Theonomy and Christian Ethics probably 20 -something years ago, and I could remember thinking, all right, this is good, this is where I am.

And then I started reading a bunch of articles that Bonson did after Theonomy and Christian Ethics, and he seemed to really backpedal a lot.

And I thought that was odd. Bonson ended up really undermining everything that he said

Theonomists held to. So that's why I ultimately came up with the idea of Christonomy.

I don't know anybody who calls themselves a Theonomist today. Do you?

Actually, I do, especially in regard to the revival of it amongst some younger

Christians. In fact, it's interesting. When I first became a Christian, for years, the only

Theonomists I had ever heard of were Pato Baptists, especially Presbyterian.

And there was a few, very few... In fact, when I was a young Christian, the only

Reformed Baptist Theonomist that I knew of was William O. Einwechter, a pastor here in Pennsylvania who wrote articles for Rush Dooney's magazine,

The Calsinon Report. But now there is an explosion of popularity for Theonomy amongst

Reformed Baptists. I hear more about Reformed Baptists being Theonomists today than Pato Baptists. Now, I'm going to tell you a little story here.

R .J. Rush Dooney didn't know me from a hole in the wall. But years ago,

I'm going to tell you something he said to me that was very profound. By the way, I think you said

O .J. Rush Dooney is R .J. What did

I say? I thought you said O .J., but maybe you're thinking... No, R .J., R .J. Okay, I'm sorry.

R, R, R. Anyway, I was at a conference one time down in Tampa, Florida where R .J.

Rush Dooney was speaking. And at lunchtime, I grabbed...

They were serving blimpy sandwiches for lunch, and I grabbed a blimpy sandwich and potato chips and a

Diet Coke, and I sat down outside on these picnic tables, and who sat down right across from me was

R .J. Rush Dooney. Wow. And so it was an excellent opportunity to pick his brain.

He was really a small man. Now, I'm 6 '4". I mean, he had to be 5 '4".

And we sat down, and he said to me during the course of our conversation, he said this.

He said, young man, and I was young at the time, so he said, young man, remember this.

The greatest paradigm shifts in a culture never came about as a result of a majority, but it came about as a result of a minority who refused to compromise their beliefs.

And I thought that was very, very good. Amen. Yes, I knew

Dr. Rush Dooney not as a close friend, but he was a client of mine on WMCA Radio.

He was one of the hosts of the program that I created called The Voice of Sovereign Grace, which had five different hosts a week, and he was one of them.

And I can recall when I was first trying to convince the

Calcedon Foundation to sponsor a part of this show, his initial response to me was, well,

I've been speaking to people whose opinion I highly trust, and they say that you should be paying me.

And I said to him, I said to him, Dr. Rush Dooney, that may be true, but it just doesn't work that way in the real world.

But he wound up sponsoring one night a week of the show. But we have to go to a commercial break or a midway break.

Please be patient with us, folks, because the middle break is the longer break in the show. And because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, they are required by the FCC to air their own public service announcements in the middle of our show, which is the way that they localize geographically the show to Lake City, Florida, where they are located.

And we, on the other hand, simultaneously air our globally heard commercials. So please use this time wisely.

Write down as much of the information, contact information for our advertisers as you possibly can, so you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, or at least respond to them by saying, thank you for sponsoring

Iron Trip and Zion Radio. When you can't use money, please respond to them by at least thanking them.

And that should go a long way to convince them that their money is well spent, because we absolutely, positively need our advertisers to exist.

There is not nearly enough donations coming into Iron Trip and Zion Radio to keep us on the air.

So please thank our advertisers and also send in your questions to my guest, Jerry Johnson, Chris Orensen at gmail .com.

Chris Orensen at gmail .com. We'll be right back. Please don't go away. Is gay

Christian a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's Church? So come join us for the 6th

Future of Christendom Conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the gospel at war in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the

Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits. Head to futureofchristendom .org.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Orensen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Chris Orensen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Orensen while you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3 -I -S -I -R for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland, who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.

One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the

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Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity. For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit

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or call 678 -954 -7831, that's 678 -954 -7831.

If you visit, have them Joe O 'Reilly, Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener, and Mattai in County Kildare, Ireland, send you.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

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I'm Pastor Chuck White of the Greenville Presbyterian Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina, and the NASB is my

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Getting a driver's license. Running a cash register. Flipping burgers. Passing sixth grade.

Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

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God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Iron Sharpens Iron If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of Scripture as the written Word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of Biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

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You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

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Before I return to my guest Jerry Johnson in our conversation about Christonomy, how do we demonstrate our love of Christ, I have some important announcements to make.

Folks, if you really love this show, we're talking about how to demonstrate love today.

If you really love this show, we are in urgent need of your financial support. In fact,

I was recently dismayed, let down, when two prospects for advertising that I had high hopes for sponsoring this program declined my proposals for advertising and I was really counting on them too much,

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So, please, if you love this show, go to IonSharpen'sIonRadio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now, and please be as generous as you possibly can.

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So send me an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. Always remember, as much as I need your donations,

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Please never do that. Don't give your own church where you remember less money than you ordinarily do in order to bless us.

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Also, don't forget about the three -day Bible conference, including a debate featuring

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Friday, Saturday, Sunday, September 15th, 16th, and 17th. The theme is The Gospel at War, and the debate will be held on Saturday, September 16th, starting at 3 .30

p .m. Dr. White will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, and the theme is

Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a

Member of Christ's Church? Dr. White will obviously be denying that thesis or opposing it, while Dr.

Gregory Coles will be affirming it. He identifies himself as a gay Christian.

So, if you want to get the best price on registering for this three -day event, including the debate, go to www .futureofchristenedom

.com www .futureofchristenedom .com www .futureofchristenedom

.com and I have to make sure that I got the last part right, I always mix up com and org, I'm sorry.

www .futureofchristendom .org www .futureofchristendom .org is where you register for the three -day conference and debate and do so as quickly as possible so you get the best price.

Last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, doctrinally solid, theologically sound church, no matter where you live on the planet

Earth, I may be able to help you find a church sometimes, even within a few minutes from where you live, as I've done for many listeners in this

Iron Sherpins Iron Radio audience all over the globe. So if you're in that predicament of not being a member of a biblically sound church, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put Audiena Church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Jerry Johnson, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Jerry, is there something that you'd like to finish or complete saying before we move on to any listener questions?

Yeah, brother, one thing I did want to tell you, I wanted to tell you a story that happened probably 10, 12 years ago.

It is kind of humorous. Now, I'm not a stupid man. That was a line from that movie.

Oh, man. Anyway, I'm not a stupid man.

One time I was over and I will just tell you, y 'all know who

Gary North is. Yes. Gary North thought I was the greatest thing since I spread.

Do you know who John Robbins was? Yes. John Robbins thought

I was the greatest thing since I spread. And they were polar opposites. They were polar opposite. I told my wife,

I must be doing something wrong. I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread.

But I was over at Gary North's house one time. And Gary North was known, bless his heart, to blow up, belittle people.

And I figured the best way to avoid that was not to say anything. So I would just sit.

And I wouldn't say a thing. But Gary North, we were in his living room one time.

And I wouldn't say anything. And he looked at me and he said, So why do you believe that the theonomy movement self imploded?

And I was like, Oh, no, I don't want to say anything. Because this guy's gonna jump all over me.

But I said, Dr. North, I really think part of the problem was, you guys never showed love and toleration for opposing views.

And I said, whenever anybody had a question, or an opposing view, you would pounce all over them, like a pack of wolves.

And I thought I was gonna get thrown out of this house. He looked at me and he said,

You know what, you're probably right. Wow. And he should not have added the word probably.

Because if anything, Gary North was known for as being very unnecessarily caustic.

I mean, I had two friends that asked him sincere questions. And he blew up at him.

Yeah, I believe he blew up at me once over the phone. Did he really? Yeah, he would do that.

He would do that off the cup. And I was sitting there thinking this guy's gonna throw me out of this house for saying that.

But he just looked at me and said, You're probably right. And I was like, I'm not saying anything else.

I'm gonna leave it there. Because I don't want this guy to blow up at me. Buddy, he blew up at Eric Holmberg one time.

Well, that Eric needs to be blown up because he'd be converted to Eastern Orthodoxy. Yeah, you know what?

This was back around. Eric had done an excellent video called life's camera blasphemy.

Wow. And he sent it to Gary North and Gary North. He wrote like two pages of why it was the most stupid video.

I want to send it to him. No, there's no way.

But anyway, yeah, I haven't talked to Eric in probably about a year now.

So he has never said anything to me about joining the

Greek Orthodox Church. But anyway, I did want to tell your listeners this, if I haven't told them already.

The amazing grace documentary is free on YouTube. All you have to do is type in amazing grace, the history and theology of Calvinism, and you can watch it on YouTube.

And that is part of the reason I sold the ministry, really the email list.

I sold it back in 2013 and closed up Nicene Council because you could really watch it online for free.

And I thought, man, we've really run our course with this. And but anyway, if anybody wants to watch it, just punch it in the

YouTube amazing grace, the history and theology of Calvinism, and it should come right up, and you can watch it there for free.

Yes, and just overlook the fact that the host, Eric Holmberg, converted to Eastern Orthodoxy very tragically.

I'm not trying to be mean to Eric, but I believe that is an act of apostasy.

And the content of the documentary should not be diminished in its importance in your minds because it is the best presentation of Calvinism I have ever seen and heard, and I keep hearing that from everybody who actually saw the documentary.

Yeah, now I would say this, brother. If you notice, I think my name's only in two places on it as a senior writer, and I didn't want to be interviewed for it because I didn't want it to be about me.

And I would say it transcends whoever wrote it and whoever narrated it, you know.

But I will also tell you this, Eric was not much of an Calvinist at the time that we wrote it.

Really? Yeah, he wasn't. He eventually became one. But according to you, he's apostatized to that.

I've had a couple of people ask me about Greek Orthodoxy. I've read a couple of books on it.

I've read a couple of books by proponents of it. And what I would tell people is

Eastern or Greek Orthodoxy has all the earmarks of the

Galatian heresy. Unfortunately, they never had a reformation to set them straight.

And that is what I would say about it. Yes, and in fact, let me take this opportunity to plug an excellent new documentary on Eastern Orthodoxy by Jason Wallace.

Jason Wallace is the pastor of Christ Church, Christ Presbyterian Church, which is an

Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Magna, Utah, in the heart of Mormon land.

And Jason Wallace has really created some excellent documentaries. You being a documentary, documentarian yourself,

Jerry, would love his documentaries. I did some voiceovers for several of them.

What is it called, brother? The Failure of Eastern Orthodoxy.

Is it on YouTube? Yes, it is. All right. I will look it up.

The Failure of Eastern Orthodoxy. Eastern Orthodoxy. All right.

The Failure of Eastern Orthodoxy. I'll give it a look tonight. Oh, it is excellent. And there is a lot of research that he lovingly, painstakingly, meticulously poured into this because, as you may know,

Eastern Orthodoxy is relatively an unknown religion to most

Protestants, even Protestant apologists who may be expert on Roman Catholicism. Yeah, I would tell you

I don't know much about it. But this will be an eye -opener, and I hope it opens the eyes as well as the minds, ears, and hearts of Eastern Orthodox individuals and brings them to the true gospel of Jesus Christ of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

It is clearly an idolatrous religion and a works righteousness religion and is even in some ways more heretical than Roman Catholicism.

Yeah, I would agree. Like I said, I read some books by the proponents of it.

And let me ask you this. This is an honest question I'm asking you. So I would love to hear your opinion, brother.

But one of the things I noticed that they always do is they always quote the church fathers as if they're never wrong.

Right. And as if they always agreed with them, which they did not. Right. Right.

And one thing I said to a priest, I guess, of a

Greek Orthodox church, I said to him, I said, would you accept the translation of somebody that had maybe been a

Christian for a day? And he said, of course not.

And I said, even though I think a lot of the early church fathers were really good on a lot of things they said,

I see the church as a child. It's growing up over the years.

And I would think that, you know, being removed from the scriptures or I'm sorry, not removed from the scriptures, being removed older in the timeline that the church has a better interpretation today because a lot of things are tried and true.

You know? Yes. You understand what I'm saying? Like, for instance, apologists today, many of them, not all of them, there are some apologists who are horrible, obviously, but there are apologists like Dr.

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, for instance, who knows a lot more about the

Greek and Hebrew languages than many of the church fathers. Correct. Correct. And especially when it comes to Hebrew, obviously many of the

Greek fathers knew Greek, but as far as the

Hebrew language and also who have just had the benefit of standing on the shoulders of giants of theology after major issues and heresies were disputed and debated over and so on.

So, I agree with you. By the way,

I did want to tell your listeners, during my lunchtime, I do a lot of walking and I listen to a sermon.

I heard an excellent sermon. It's on YouTube by Dr. Tom Askell today.

Oh, I love Tom. Yeah. So, I thought that was a really great sermon he did.

So, if you get a chance to look it up, he did it at the Founders Conference a few years ago.

It might have been last year. But anyway, I thought it was great. Look that up and listen to that.

Tom did a really excellent job. Amen. I'm sure he did because he does an excellent job every time

I've seen or heard or read him. Yeah.

And I saw his documentary, By What Standard? Yeah. That is another good one.

Yes, it is. And he also responded to, in a negative fashion, critiquing

Ted Cruz who really went way overboard condemning

Uganda for its anti -homosexual laws. And he, Ted Cruz, was also basing some of his vehement opposition to a misunderstanding, to begin with, on what the laws were.

And Tom went through painstakingly with a reporter who was a homosexual sitting in Tom's study interviewing him.

Really? He very remarkably and wonderfully expounded the truth and did a very careful and balanced job on approaching this issue.

Yeah. I've interviewed Tom many times and I look forward to having him back on the program.

Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm sorry. No, no. You go first and then

I'll read it. I didn't really have anything to say, brother. I was just going to make a comment.

Go ahead and say what you were going to say. Okay. Well, we do have another anonymous listener who says,

Isn't there a tension and dispute and divide between Bible -believing evangelical

Protestants and Roman Catholics on the issue of love? The Roman Catholic view of justification, from what

I understand, is faith working through love is what justifies us.

Whereas the Reformers, who I believe were faithful to the Bible, said that it was faith alone.

Obviously, the working through love was a fruit, but the Church of Rome believes it is an actual causing agent of justification.

Isn't this a world of difference from the Biblical and Reformed view? That is a very good question, and I have to tell you,

I don't know. I would have to examine it. You know, when it comes to justification,

I mean, there was an aspect where Christ loved his elect, and that's why he died.

He actually, I would take it further and say he loved his father. So, yeah,

I don't know if I would say it's working through love. I don't know if I wouldn't.

I would have to examine it. Well, I think it's just like sanctification and good works.

These things do not help a Christian to become justified and add to the finished work of Christ.

They are evidences. They're necessary evidences. Yeah, I would agree with that.

Right. So, there seems to be a lot of confusion at times between sanctification, justification, glorification.

Actually, Christ's works seems to make us justified, and the way we're going to be justified is

Christ is sanctifying us. How is he doing that? I really don't know.

I mean, I wish I did, but I don't. But if you read 1 Corinthians 6, 9, it says,

But such were some of you, but you are sanctified, you are justified. And it puts sanctified first, you know, and that has always thrown me off.

But we've got to remember, even though we are being sanctified, it is

Christ who is sanctifying us. It is all him, and he is the one that is justifying us also.

So, whatever that's worth, I don't know if that answers the question, but that's the best one

I've got now. I'll listen to other ones, I promise. Yeah, and obviously, as 1

Corinthians 13, which features the passage that vast majority of people, whether they're really

Christians or not, will use at weddings. Well, I don't know if it's the vast majority of people that use it, but many, many people who could be nominal

Christians or what have you, will use the passage, but it is speaking a very clear truth that no matter what we say or do, if we are devoid of love, it means nothing, it means our faith is false, and so on.

Right. I've heard that passage in 1

Corinthians, the chapter of love, I've heard it taken out of context and twisted and obliterated, where it actually means nothing.

That's right. But we've got to remember, it means what God says it means.

Amen. Well, we have to go to our final break. If you have a question for my guest,

Jerry Johnson, I would suggest that you send it to us immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with what your pastors teach over something we are addressing today, and you would obviously not wish to draw attention to your identity, or you're a pastor yourself, and you disagree with your fellow elders, or it could be anything that resembles that kind of a conflict that would compel you to remain anonymous.

We understand that, and we will grant your request to remain anonymous. But if you're just asking a general question, please give us your first name at least.

City and state and country of residence, we'll be right back with Jerry Johnson after these messages. Don't go away. The Mid -Atlantic

Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity, the debate topic,

Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? So come join us for the sixth

Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the

Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. It's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Chris Arnzen and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

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Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We're devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

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We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

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This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

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Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show at any time day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the

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London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening. If you love

Iron Sharpens Iron radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing 6th grade.

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That's liyfc .org. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And please make note, folks, that the new website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church of Flemington, New Jersey is gcbc -nj .org.

gcbc -nj .org. Disregard the website in the commercial. That is the new website that I just mentioned, gcbc -nj .org.

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I want to thank Dan Buttafuoco for his extreme generosity to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and for sponsoring this show.

And I just want to give a final reminder to our listeners. Please, folks, we need your help more than ever.

We need your financial support more than ever, either through advertising or through donations. Go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com

and click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. Please be generous as you can.

We really need your help, or if you're going to advertise, send me an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

Jerry Johnson, I would like you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about our topic,

Christonomy. Well, one thing, let me say this. If you go to YouTube, type in NiceneCouncil .com.

No doubt, NiceneCouncil .com. And there is a video in the first season that I did on Christonomy.

And it's only like seven minutes long. Maybe seven minutes and a few seconds.

But what I would like, because the one thing that I guess kind of harps on me is so many people do not consider the moral law of God as found in the

Ten Commandments. And that is something, when we talk about the law of Christ, the law of love, we're talking about the

Ten Commandments. And we need to remember those, and we do need to try to institute those in our lives, in our families' lives, and in our communities' lives, and ultimately,

I believe, in our nation's lives. So that is something I would like for the listener really to do, is to go to that NiceneCouncil .com

and listen to that video. And I really believe that we need to start instituting that in our lives and not just have a sentimental love, but a love towards God that is an action that we do and we don't.

So that is what I would say. If you want to add anything to that, Chris, go ahead.

Well, I think that we who are Reformed Christians should take seriously that we have a stereotype that is very frequently associated with us that we are unloving, that we are elitists theologically who do nothing but snub and turn up our noses at and look down upon and condemn those who disagree with us on anything, although that is very often a broad brushing and a slander of those who are not

Reformed. They are not entirely wrong. This is a phenomenon that definitely exists, and it even exists among Reformed people against other

Reformed people that do not agree with them completely on every jot and tittle. This is something that we really need to examine ourselves over as individuals and as churches and even denominations and pray to the

Lord to reveal these things to us if they exist so that we may more successfully, by God's grace, repent of these things.

And I think that is a very serious issue. But, Jerry, you always have an open door here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I always love interviewing you, and I look forward to your return, and I hope that you return frequently and soon.

And I want to thank all of our listeners today for listening in, especially those who took the time to write.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. Please mark down in your calendar to tune into our program tomorrow.

We have a first -time guest, Raymond Ibrahim, and he's going to be discussing his book

Defenders of the West, the Christian Heroes Who Stood Against Islam, a very controversial book and topic that divides

Christians. It even divides Reformed Christians. And I'm speaking specifically of the Crusades, and we have to know with intelligence and wisdom and careful study how we place these things in history, as whether they are to be rejected or revered.

And I am not even certain where I stand on it yet. I just received Raymond's book, have not yet read it, and have not yet heard what he has to say.

We have very strong theological differences, but I think it's a valuable topic. So I hope to hear from you with your questions tomorrow on Iron Trip and Zion Radio.