Moral Relativity

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, but we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here's our host, Pastor Mike Avendroth.

Bob Evans, Twitter, and the Setup for a Moral Discussion

Welcome to No Compromise Radio. My name's Mike Avendroth with Steve Cooley. I'm trying to recover from what Steve just said off air. Howdy, y 'all. Steve, when you're in the South, do you go to Bob Evans or anything?

Listen, listen, let me tell you,.

We didn't talk about this. I've been to one Bob Evans, this is true. Last fall, my wife and I went to the Midwest to see her family, and we're hungry. We're looking for a restaurant, and I just go, let's just, because we've got this GPS in the car that will find restaurants.

And so, we say, you know, nearest restaurant. And Bob Evans comes up and I go, isn't that some kind of steak place or something? You know, my wife goes, I don't really know. So, we go into Bob Evans, unaware, unaware that they prepare 97 of their food in a microwave and then bring it out to you.

There's hate going all around, come on.

It was abominable. Seriously. Abominable. I've had better food at truck stops.

Well, maybe it was a frozen sausage biscuit gravy or something. I don't even remember what it was.

I've tried to block it out of my mind, but thanks to you bringing it up, we had to talk about it.

Steve, I have to admit, and I know some of our listeners in the South are probably not gonna believe this, but I don't know if I've ever eaten at a Bob Evans, maybe one time. One ping and one ping only, that's about it.

Just because they're not around here. Well, they're not that far away. You can find them in New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, all over the place, because for the rest of the trip, while we were driving, you know, we'd see Bob Evans and I would start shaking so violently, I could hardly control the car.

Well, this morning on No Compromise Radio, we'd like to introduce our new sponsor. We usually don't take sponsors, but we have Bob Evans now, our new corporate sponsor. Well, that's great.

It's good to have Bob Evans on board. It's one of the restaurants in the United States.

Steve, I don't know why people do Twitter stuff, but they do, and I don't know why they post strange things on there. They do. But No Compromise Radio posted this strange tweet. Uh-oh. Not that long ago.

Teresa of Avila said, "'I know by frequent experience "'that there is nothing which puts the devils to flight "'like holy water.'".

Yeah. Yeah, you know, I usually, once or twice a year, I'll make the trip to Lourdes and yeah, I just can't. Well, you know what? They have that special deal here,.

Especially in Roman Catholic New England, where you get the, it's like buy one, get one free. If you pay for Lourdes, you get Medjugorje for nothing. Yeah, if you've ever been to Fenway,.

You know when the Red Sox win, they play that song, Holy Water. Oh, wait, it's Dirty Water. Oh, well, nevermind.

That's probably why I don't go to Fenway that often.

Well, I love that Holy Water. Oh, it's, yeah. See, that'd be perfect.

Well, one of the other Twitters, Twitter folks then said, Josh said, "'Oh, hey, one of Tim Keller's favorites to quote.'". Really? Yeah, so I don't have any documentation for that, but I think he probably does quote him.

Yeah. Her.

That's right, her. As far as we know, Teresa is still a female name so far, but it certainly could change.

What Moral Relativity Means and Why It Matters

Steve, tell me what, not the theory of relativity is, but tell me what moral relativity is, and why does it matter? How would you describe it in your own terms?

How would I describe moral relativity? Well, that there is no inherent right or wrong, that everything is just kind of, it's right or wrong based on what you believe is right or wrong. It's kind of the judges, every man did what was right in his own eyes kind of thinking.

So what is morally repugnant to you might be just perfectly fine for me, and you need to let me have my way about it. So it doesn't really matter what you think, what matters is what I think.

Kind of have only one word for that, right? Forget you.

I have one word for that, forget you.

So how about factoring in a democracy or a group of people in terms of, well, the majority votes this now as true or good or holy or upright, does that have anything to do with it?

Absolutely nothing, because everybody in America could agree on a particular subject, except for one person, and that person has the right to their own opinion. I mean, the only exception to that is if it, and this is something that's gonna go by the board, just watch this, but the only exception to that is if it hurts someone else, if it causes someone else harm, then it's wrong.

Most people would agree on that, but I'm telling you the day is coming where that's gonna go by the board, and you say, well, how's that? Well, because I think the day is coming where pedophilia will no longer be seen as morally repugnant or horrifying or whatever word you wanna attach to it, but it will be somewhat understandable.

It'll be something, it'll be no more a moral illness or a mental defect than homosexuality or transgenderism.

God's Immutability, Absolute Morality, and the Christian Response

Steve, I've been going through Malachi, and Malachi 3 .6 says, "'For I, the Lord, Yahweh, do not change.'". And then fascinatingly, he says, "'Therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed. "'I made promises to you, a variety of promises, "'stemming from the Abrahamic covenant, "'and so I'm not gonna consume you Israelites, "'because I don't change, I don't vacillate, "'I don't go back on my word, I'm not fickle.'".

And isn't that the main reason we believe in absolute morality? In other words, since God doesn't change, His laws don't change, His person doesn't change, His promises don't change, He keeps His promises, then whatever He says, that doesn't change either in terms of it's holy, Nussert's standard of law as an extension of His righteousness.

Petey. Yeah, I mean, He set the standard, and so whatever He said, you know, I mean, His design for mankind, for men and women, is not variable. You know, it's not going to alter over time. I mean, what's the number one argument against biblical morality?

Well, that was written thousands of years ago by people who didn't have all the sophistication that we now have. So why can't we live like animals? Petey. Steve, there's some book,.

Slaves, Women, and Homosexuals, remember that came out, and it was the trajectory hermeneutic where God was kind of evolving, and so back 2 ,000 years ago, 3 ,500 years ago, He had certain views, but now if you follow the graph in the XY chart, He's grown some, He's grown up.

Petey And they would know that because they did a series of interviews with God, wherein He revealed He was evolving on certain issues, right?

Or wait, is that a politician? Petey. Yeah, Webb wrote that book, by the way. I was squinting and I could see across the studio here to that particular book. Well, Gallup, Steve, came out with a poll on moral issues and how Americans are changing their view of some of these.

Petey And when I want to know the truth, I go to Gallup. Petey Yeah, Gallup. What's the difference between Gallup and Barna?

Does one own the other? Petey. Gallup's faster. Petey. Now, okay, here's a question. I just want to picture this in my mind's eye for a minute. Have you ever been on a horse and were either galloping or sprinting on a horse?

Petey. Doubtful.

I mean, I'm trying to recall. I've blacked out so much of my childhood. I think I, I think I, I mean, you're laughing, but it is true. I mean, I see pictures now of me as a child and I'm going, you know, pictures I haven't seen for a while and I'm going, I guess I did take that picture.

I just have no idea. I'm sure I rode a horse a time or two, but not, not very often. A certain, certainly not at a Gallup. I, you know, it's just, I didn't grow up in the wild west.

Petey. I also read Titus chapter one, where it talks about in the hope of eternal life, which God who never lies. And so we have to think about God and who he is, his person, his work as never changing in terms of his essence and nature.

From our perspective, maybe it'll seem like his actions with men change. But when we come to this Gallup poll, right at the top, Steve, comparing 2001 to 2015, how moral acceptability has decreased over time.

What would be another word for that? It's, I don't even know, it doesn't matter. Morally acceptable, gay or lesbian relations. That's what's changed the most. So 40 of the people in 2001 said gay and lesbian relations, morally acceptable.

Four, four out of 10. Now 6 .3 out of 10, a change of 23 points. On a scale of 100. So 63%.

Yeah. I just, I just, well, I mean, this is what happens. It's, our society has become so saturated with images of sexuality of every kind. You know, it's really seems like what is off limits? Seriously, what is off limits?

You can't, there's nothing that is imaginable, I think, you know, that sexually that someone hasn't tried to promote as acceptable. And so when you live in that kind of culture, you live without God, you live in a society where biblical morality is scoffed at.

Well, I think all these things kind of come together and you wind up with a change in how people view what is and what is not moral. It's perfectly acceptable. I mean, how many Christians live together now?

You know, before they get so-called Christians, how many Christians live together before they get married? You know, because they, well, it's saving money for our wedding or, you know, whatever kind of story they want to tell themselves, you know.

Steve, doesn't it kind of go back to Tozer and Pink and Spurgeon when they talk about the attributes of God. And if you just think about who God is and all his attributes, it just helps you understand culture and other people and these shifts.

And it helps you not buy into this slide where things that used to be evil are now good and things that used to be good are now evil.

Well, I think just thinking and pondering about the attributes of God helps you in a number of ways. You know, if you think about this, the way that God forgives, do I forgive that way? No. So what's the challenge?

The challenge is for me to improve my forgiveness. If we think about all that God has done for us, we live our lives differently, we think differently. Now, if we think about God's immovable nature, that he has defined certain things and he doesn't change, well, if we think, well, he's just an ogre, he's just a rule giver, he's just this, he's just that.

But if we alternatively think the God who loved me, who has forgiven all my sins, says this is the way things are to be, well, then that changes our mindset. You know, it's kind of like, it really is like a father saying to his children, don't touch that hot stove, it's bad for you.

Don't walk out in front of cars, it's bad for you. You know, we can then do those things, right, as kids, but we're going to pay the consequence. And when we violate God's law, there is, there are consequences.

The Doctrine of Immutability and God's Wisdom in Creation

Steve, thinking about the doctrine of immutability, if I was teaching kids, I would say, remember that old show, Teenage... Mutinous. Yeah, they change. And so God doesn't change. And maybe we apply this doctrine of immutability to other attributes, like wise.

Okay, was God wise when he designed the world and he created it in six days and the ecosystem and precipitation and ocean and fresh water and all these things? And you just go, the wisdom of God. I mean, how smart is God to create the world and gravity and everything else?

And putting the tilt of the axis of the planet in just such a, you know, yeah.

The sun's the exact distance away so we don't either burn or freeze. The wisdom of God. Aren't we lucky? I know, but these days, well, God isn't so wise and he's preventing people from flourishing in human relationships because he wants couples to be a man and woman before they're married.

But God's wisdom never changes. He's immutable.

You know what, if we just change our behavior, God will catch on. Or have enough votes.

Or enough money. I mean, can't you just see, this is the Tower of Babel kind of, hey, we are going to tell you how to run this universe.

Yeah, yeah. Let us just explain to you, God, how things are gonna be from now on.

Idolatry, Compromise, and the Christian Need to Stand for Truth

Steve, directly related is the Christian's response to this shift in moral relativity and moral standards and moral acceptability. I think the biggest problem with Christians is gonna be idolatry. And here's what I mean by that.

We will want people's acceptance. We will want the world's acceptance so much, we will make it an idol, that we're gonna cave in on certain issues because we want the world not to reject all of it. I mean, come on, let's just give up gay marriage issue.

I mean, Jesus never talked about homosexuality and so let's kind of give in. Because otherwise, they're gonna bar us from the table of discussion and we don't want that. And it all stems from, I think, idolatry.

Pete. Well, and you're exactly right. This is the mistake that Christians have made over and over and over again throughout history. You really only have to look maybe about a hundred or so years ago, you know, as the fundamentalist movement was kind of reaching its zenith in terms of power, but also struggling and splitting and fracturing in many ways.

And they came to realize that in order to be acceptable, in order to get more people to listen to them, they were gonna have to go back into the academy. You know, and seek higher education, all these kinds of things.

And that's what ultimately led to their downfall was once you start seeking approval of the world, you're done, stick a fork in you. You know, and does that mean, now just let me say this, that does not mean that, you know, as fundamentalists like maybe the Westboro Baptist or that miscarriage of Christianity and fundamentalism, we're not unloving.

It's just, we have to stand for the truth. We can't compromise. There can be no compromise. May I say that? Petey I think that's trademarked. Petey With error or, you know, with the world, but we have to present the truth in a loving way, but that does not mean watering down the truth.

It means that we don't wanna be the source of offense. The gospel can be the offense. The word of God can be the offense, but we as people don't wanna be, we don't wanna be name callers or anything like that, but we have to tell the truth.

1 John 5 and the Problem of Clever Facsimiles

Petey Steve, one of the best verses for idolatry, the resistance of idolatry is found in 1 John 5, the last verse. And you know, sometimes you close out epistles, love and grace and peace and blessings.

Steve Give my greetings or the saints with me, you know, greet all of you in the Lord.

Petey Yeah, grace and peace to you. And so John, oh, I think he was the apostle of love. Some have called him, right? Steve Love. Petey He ends his final comments in 1 John, in chapter five. Dear children, be on guard against all clever facsimiles.

And I just read to you from the message, the message Bible, clever facsimile. So see, we're so nice to be edified with the message on occasion. Steve A message moment. Petey So Erin Benziger, who hosts a Quipping Eve show and has that Do Not Be Surprised website, she, I think she tweeted a while ago that she was in some dentist office or I don't know, RMV, DMV or something.

Steve They're all the same, painful, right? Long lines, painful.

Petey Yeah. Get your car towed, you're at the parking lot thing. What's that Philadelphia parking show? Are they, there's some parking lot show, they fill it. Steve I don't know, but it sounds fascinating.

Petey Anyway, she said she heard the magic, this magic moment. Who sings at the Drifters? Steve This magic moment. Petey And she thought of the message moment on No Compromise Radio and I thought, another indoctrinated listener.

Changing the minds and hearts of our listeners, one radio show hostess at the time. Okay, on the Gallup poll for social issues, May 26, 2015, second to the gay marriage issue, having a baby outside of marriage went from 45 morally acceptable in 2001 to 61%.

In other words, a 16 change. It is now morally acceptable to have a baby outside of marriage. Here's what I'm happy about, Steve.

I'm just happy they'd have the baby. Steve Yeah, exactly. And I mean, that topic, I mean, that's about 12 shows right there because first of all, 12 is a perfect number. But secondly, there are so many issues involved in that.

You know, I mean, yeah, I mean, there's poverty, there are all kinds of things that go along with that. But it doesn't surprise me because I think, you know, what I would say is instead of moral issues, morally acceptable, which are issues that, or which are events that would bring shame upon somebody?

You know, that's what really is going on in our society. Shame as, not just as a word, but as a concept is leaving. I mean, there's just no such thing anymore.

Steve Would have been interesting if Gallup would have talked about street preachers, evangelism, proselytization, and how that's becoming morally unacceptable now to have anybody tell you you're a sinner and here's who Jesus is.

Polygamy, Doctor-Assisted Suicide, and the Collapse of Shame

Steve, I found this one fascinating. This isn't number three on the list of change, but it's down the aisle a little bit and it's polygamy. And you have more than one spouse. It used to be 7 morally acceptable in 2001.

Now it's 16%, more than doubled, a change of nine percentage points. Now then we're not up in the 20s yet, but you know what?

We will be. Oh, absolutely. I mean, these things, it is, it's not a slippery slope, it's a landslide. Let's just be honest, you know, or an avalanche. The snow's up on the mountain and it's coming down.

You know, there's just, there's absolutely no way to stop it, you know, apart from some massive, you know, spiritual awakening. Unless the Holy Spirit really moves in a mighty way and saves millions of people, you know, our country and our society are on the downgrade.

Avalanche.

Avalanche. Steve, we become so morally and socially liberal with these things. Isn't there a direct tie into, there's a famine in the land for the word of God. And once the word of God goes out, just as we started the show or last show, everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

Yeah, when people,.

I mean, when you can go to church and you don't even hear the word taught, then what is happening in our churches is going to reflect what eventually is going to be happening in our society. If people don't hear the word, don't obey the word, don't have any sense of what the word is in the church, then certainly they're not going to in the society.

But you know, when you're talking about moral avalanches, which I think is a good phrase, you know, I hear people, unbelievers, but commentators about society, discussing the rapidity with which the opinion, public opinion on homosexual marriage changed.

And, you know, I mean, it's like overnight. Well, actually what happened was as people began to discover that nobody really cared, you know, then it was okay to let go from the inside what was already there anyway.

You know, your revulsion at the idea that God would put any limitations on anyone could now be freely expressed.

Steve, I'm still thinking about that word. Moral avalanche. I think that needs to be a book title or something. Moral avalanche.

Well, I mean, we are at the bottom, the base of the hill and the snow is coming. Don't even think that we're going to stop it because we're not.

The Gallup poll, social issues, shifting on key moral issues also reveals, Steve, something that is, I think, wicked. 2001, 49 of the people thought that doctor-assisted suicide was morally acceptable.

Now it's up another seven points. Doctor-assisted suicide. How is this related to moral plight and avalanche?

Well, it all is. First of all, because in Genesis, God described man as an image bearer. And now, you know, whereas doctors used to say, first, do no harm. Now, you know, part of the do no harm is to destroy that God bearing or that image bearer of God, you know, to snuff out his life or her life.

I was just looking at this article the other day about people who are intentionally mutilating themselves because they see themselves as, they have a vision in their head of themselves that's different than their physical body.

So they mutilate, cut off a body part or something else, you know, so that they can now live it. They intentionally do that to themselves. And you just think there are people who live with great affliction, great suffering their whole lives, some would call handicaps, and these people are doing it intentionally to themselves.

What kind of madness is this?

And why can't we call it madness? Steve, I used to love Christian Smith's moniker of modern evangelicals, that we were more like moralistic, therapeutic deists. But now with all this moralism slide, so many evangelicals have probably bought into this thinking that Gallup talks about.

I think he's going to have to shorten his moniker. We're just going to be therapeutic deists.

Pete. And deists at best. I mean, the truth is, if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you have to believe in all that scripture says. And it would condemn homosexual marriage. It would condemn polygamy.

It would condemn all these things you say. Well, how does it condemn polygamy? It describes it. Yes, it describes it, but it doesn't proscribe it. It doesn't tell you to do it. And we need to, it doesn't prescribe it.

We need to be about what the word of God is about.

Back to the Bible. I think that'd be a good radio show title. A great radio show title. Mike Apendross, Steve Cooley, info at nocompromisedradio .com. Thanks for listening.

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