Beth Moore Open Letter on Homosexuality, Then A "Choice" Radio Free Geneva!

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00:13

pre -Geneva excited Well You know how it is anyway didn't want to get everybody going with that And then completely switch topics for the beginning of the program

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And so I wanted to deal with I need to deal with a a breaking story right now

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I I hate to use that terminology because if you watch Fox News or CNN or any of the others

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Everything's always breaking. There's something breaking every moment but in this situation

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There is a developing story that came out Within the past couple of days an open letter was sent to Beth Moore by a number of women

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Bible teachers Specifically asking her to clarify her position on the subject of homosexuality

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We live in a day where this is an absolute dividing line. It is a an issue that is being used to divide churches and Anyone knows that over the past decade

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The list is long of those who have completely altered their position on the subject of Homosexuality how it is viewed in Scripture We all know about the revoice conference last year the one coming up this year what's going on the

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PCA the very No, no offense intended or double entendre, but limp -wristed response of the

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PCA to the revoice Conference the fact that's demonstrated that there is a

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Really leftward thrust within the PCA today We see names of people

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Jen hat maker was a name that only a few years ago became very much associated when she shifted and and so many people are shifting in regards to homosexuality gay marriage

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All of these these issues It's not like a whole new raft of arguments have been presented there haven't been

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This is cultural capitulation This is a demonstration of the fact that when the society comes against the

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Christian worldview at certain places that People who at one point adopted a perspective because it was sort of generally

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Accepted to do that within the church all sudden the society hits it and they don't have any foundation there

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And so they collapse and they adopt a new perspective. This is happening all around us and so with that in mind to ask

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Beth Moore who has over seven hundred and fifty thousand followers on Twitter Who clearly has a huge audience as a

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Bible teacher but within more least was once considered more of the conservative realm

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To ask her to clarify her position seems rather obvious and acceptable so the questions in light of her

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Relationship with individuals who have changed their views the questions seem

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Rather straightforward Dr. Albert Muller has said there's no place for any of us to hide now he said that mainly within the

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Community and the culture demanding of Christians. This is an inter ecclesia

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Ecclesiology ecclesiastical question here This is Christians asking a

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Christian. Where do you stand on this? Because she's very quick to talk about racism and you know, she's pictures of her paddling around with Kyle James Howard and so on and so forth

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Very just quick to speak on issues like that and she was just at the SBC talking about the sexual abuse stuff.

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So Why would there be even the slightest resistance? Well since that letter has been written all

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The on social media you you're just being mean to Beth and so on and so forth

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In fact just a few moments ago literally 13 minutes ago John Stark lead pastor of Apostles Uptown in Manhattan, New York Tweeted me 14 minutes now

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James I know you may have justified in your mind for why you and others have

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Obsessively gone after Beth more like this, but at some point you will have to give an account for this kind of stuff Well, what is this kind of stuff?

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Here was my tweet ready folks This is the obsession that I've had by the way. This is the first time

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I've talked about her Yeah. Yeah, I haven't I've been leaving that to others primarily.

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I've got plenty on my plate with other things I just I've been watching it developing but To say that I've been obsessive about this

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Brother John you want to find any of the programs I've done on this subject. Good luck cuz

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Really Wow But here's here's the obsessive tweet folks ready

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Well, maybe Beth Moore will feel it proper to clarify and respond question mark link to the letter

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Who's obsessing here John? I think it's you Not me

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But yeah, that's from John Stark and what this is is about is

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I was very surprised that and Where'd it go?

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Oh goodness. Oh No, that's not it Maybe I saved it someplace.

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I don't know. I Thought I had it in one of these sections, but this is what happens when you've got too many things here

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Dr. Michael Byrd a well -known New Testament scholar Responded to Justin Peters and Specifically said she shouldn't respond.

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This is a trap like Admiral Akbar No matter what she does. She's gonna get in trouble and it's like I'm really really really surprised.

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I Mean, here's here's here's the questions You Tell me how

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Obsessive or mean or nasty these questions are okay. This is what we're being told that we are we're being called misogynists for daring to ask a

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Female Bible teacher that many people have put her name up as a future president of the

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Southern Baptist Convention Daring to ask these questions ready folks.

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These are terrible tried I hope you're sitting down if you're driving you might need to slow down a little bit

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Hopefully you've got some that automatic lane correction stuff going on your car. You ready? Okay, quote with these factors in mind and knowing that millions of people follow your teachings.

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We would like to ask you number one Do you believe homosexuality is inherently sinful?

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Number two, do you believe that the practice of the homosexual lifestyle is compatible with Holy Christian living?

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Number three, do you believe a person who dies as a practicing homosexual but professes to be a

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Christian will inherit eternal life? Number four, do you believe same -sex attraction is in and of itself an inherently sinful unnatural and disordered desire?

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That must be mortified and number five Why have you been so silent on this subject in light of your desire to teach the

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Word of God? There they are Um Proper questions in our day

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Yeah, you'd think I Mean anyone today in leadership. I mean

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I can understand why people who want to be Culturally acceptable

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Will try to avoid these questions like the plague Because we know what the culture says, but these these are

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Christian women Susan Heck, Debbie Lynn Kespert, Michelle Leslie, Martha Peace, Elizabeth Prada, Amy Spreeman and I've been told that there's someplace else where you can like sign on to there's something like that that there have been oh here

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Okay, there's there's there's This one has a hundred and thirty nine more names attached to it and So women

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Attached to it. At least it looks like it looks like they're all in anyway, so How can we avoid

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Answering questions. How can someone pretend to be a Bible teacher and Dr.

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Byrd, you're a New Testament scholar. You know what Paul said in 1st Corinthians 6, you know the origin of Arsinoe case, you know that that goes back to the

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Septuagint in in Leviticus 18 and 20 Certainly, you you know the creation normative element of Romans 1 that leads to Paul's discussion of both lesbianism and male homosexuality

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I Mean how how can this be an Admiral Akbar thing?

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Have we become so? Much a slave of the culture that the worst thing you could possibly ever do is to answer direct biblical questions that that might

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Marginalize you in the culture folks. We are going to be marginalized in this culture if we say

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Jesus is Lord That's where we are so here's this open letter and What I see are people running interference interference for Beth Moore so that she can simply ignore a direct question

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I can answer all these questions. Dr. Dr. Byrd. Can you? Pastor John from Manhattan.

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Can you? Will you? Openly directly. I already have everybody knows wrote a book on this long time ago stand behind it

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Didn't abandon the subject last year Pretty straightforward, but I can

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Why can't you folks This issue needs to be addressed the questions are valid given

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Beth Moore's Association with look if someone asked me what's your views on? The charismatic gifts in light of your friendship with Michael Brown.

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Well again, everybody knows we've debated it But if I hadn't

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I'd answer the question so if you're Bopping around with Jonathan Merritt if you're

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Doing what you're doing with with Jen hat maker Is aren't the questions valid?

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They're obviously about painfully valid So folks stop stop running interference

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This isn't obsession. This isn't attack. This is hey This is a vitally important issue.

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It's defining What we are going to decide is a hill to die on in the church today and if you can't define sin

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You got no hills left You have no hills to die on So this is important stuff and I think it needs to be addressed

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And so I wanted to address that let you know what the questions were direct you to This letter you can find it fairly easily online

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And I think a lot of people should be asking the question

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Beth Moore, will you stand up and be counted and all of you folks running interference for it?

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Will you sit down and shut up? Because this is well or stand up and be counted answer the questions yourself

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Be straightforward about it How can I don't I can I even begin to conceive of the lack of transparency that is inherent?

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Amongst those that are trying to say oh, no, no, no, no, don't answer questions like that. No, no, no

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You're a what a what teacher again? You're either gonna be a Bible teacher or a society teacher you can't be both you can't be both

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So so there you go Hopefully that will be

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Something we will be able to discuss the answers to in the not too distant future

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And hopefully they will be clear And we can hope they will be biblical that would be a really really really good thing, so I Was reading from website here, by the way when

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I read the letter Michelle Leslie That's Michelle with two L's Leslie calm and that's where you can find that That letter so with that.

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Are you ready? Mr. Pierce? You are ready Let's do it Constantly hear people that are

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Calvinist harp on it These keep repeating it and they repeat it so much you start to think it's a biblical truth

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Jesus stands outside the tomb of Lazarus. He says Lazarus come out and that's what I said. I can't

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I'm dead That's not what he did Lazarus came out to me to tell me a dead person can respond to the command of Christ Well, I can talk over your head like that I know the

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Hebrew the Greek I've done theology you can tell I know Do you really believe that it parallels the method of exegesis that we utilize to demonstrate those other things?

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Um, no Some new

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Calvinists even pastors very openly smoke pipes and cigars just as they drink beer and wine

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Even Jesus cannot override your unbelief

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A self -righteous legalistic deceived jerk And you need to realize that he's drawn from Predeterminism now, he's speaking of some kind of middle knowledge that God now has to I deny and Categorically deny middle don't beg the question that would demand me to force you to embrace it

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You're not always talking about necessarily God choosing something for no apparent reason But you're choosing that meat because it's a favorable meat.

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There's a reason to have that the choice of that meat And now from our underground bunker deep beneath the faculty cafeteria in New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary Safe from all those moderate

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Calvinist Dave hunt fans and those who have read and reread George Bryson's book. We are radio

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Broadcasting the truth about God's freedom to say for his own eternal glory Well, there you go you expected that You will be some people will be a little bit disappointed though because of what it replaced replaced read my book

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It replaced the last quote from the original so, you know once a while We'll just have to run the run the original just to remind everybody even though sadly with the passage of time

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Most people will go Ergun who standing on what who is that? No idea what's going on?

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Got it. Got to keep it got to keep it got to keep it fresh cuz eating eating raw eating a spoiled meats

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Not a good thing. So we got All the memes the memes over the past few hours have been

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I've been great Welcome to radio free Geneva You know why we're here on the last program

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Just see Twitter eject John hit the eject button Yes, there you go

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Yes choice memes definitely. Um on the last fighting line We had eight

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Topics we did eight Topics on the last of I know which may be a record

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But one of them one of them got things going and Ironically it was only part of the topic

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What I mean by that is we addressed just briefly before the program started someone again got me in trouble by linking me to an amazing clip from Layton flowers and I was going to be addressing something in regards to Roman Catholicism synergism

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Etc, etc and So I played it is 44 seconds long and it was about choice meats

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And what we're gonna play it don't worry but just to remind you it was about Layton flowers

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Doing what Layton flowers does? You have the concept of God's election in Scripture, but Layton doesn't believe

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That God actually freely unconditionally chooses anyone He doesn't have a divine decree

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He Just has this great calling type thing But that mankind is able outside outside of God independently of God to do things

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That are completely autonomous that they're completely they completely originate in man and And So what he does is he's trying to respond to R .C.

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Sproul. That is a mismatch of monumental proportions right there and so he

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Tries to take the concept of election and choice on God's part and say well, you know that that word choice

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You know We assume it means to choose someone but you know, like when you go into the grocery store you go to the choice meats

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Now That's utterly invalid because it's based on English not upon Greek or Hebrew or anything.

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It's it's a specious argument it's just one another one of the thousands of analogies that Layton flowers throws out to twist the scriptures to get around what the scriptures are saying and It's fallacious on its face.

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It fails on every level If he were if he were taking honestly if he were taking a a

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Undergraduate level Hermeneutics Rex Jesus class. He should be failed right then and there

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Unfortunately, he's probably teaching those down there in Texas, which says something in of itself. So it was just it was just bad

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But what's interesting is I then made the connection to and we read This fellow that because of flowers stuff had started thinking about Synergism had been led toward Roman Catholicism.

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Thankfully. God was merciful to him kept him from going that direction, but that stuff got ignored instead only

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Within I don't know may have you know, 12 hours 24 hours. I forget when when I first saw it you start seeing responses from Layton flowers bad form

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Accusing me of misrepresenting him first there was an article was posted then and it obviously in at least one hour long video was posted and There it started and he and I ended up going back and forth and back and forth and he accused me of Misrepresenting him that it was out of context.

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That's not what I was saying. So I got the video and I found the section and I started listening and It was perfectly in context smack dab in context.

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This man can change the meaning of any word that he encounters Now context isn't what he was saying in the video.

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No, no, no. No, it's a much wider context You see that we don't we can't we can't worry about the fact that in the video

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That's what he was saying because if you take into consideration this over here and that over there Then it's not in that context

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So Yeah, all right, hopefully You don't have video, huh?

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That is not a good thing. You you you have to have video We should have tested that obviously beforehand.

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So Here is here is the video so let's let's listen to it, okay let's listen to it and Let's let's hear what the

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Actual Context was. All right. This is this is his video.

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We didn't make this. We didn't edit this This is what Layton Flowers put out there under no pressure

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Here's here's the section as the reform view is Called unconditional election meaning by this that there is no foreseen action or condition

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Met by us that induces God to decide to save us but that election rests upon God's Sovereign decision to save whomsoever.

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He is pleased to say Okay, and that can get a little confusing because we could also say that God can save whomever he chooses to save Okay, the question is is he saving people for no apparent reason or is he saving people?

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For a reason in other words is there is besides besides some secret hidden counsel that we can't possibly know about some

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Unconditional, you know reason that is not there In other words, the the Calvinist often said we just don't know what the reason is

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Therefore can you say with certainty there is no reason based upon our choices or our decisions independently of God that that would

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Cause him to show favor to one person over another You know when we ask about election, we're talking about Namely God having favor on somebody he him choosing somebody over someone else matter of fact whenever we use the word choice

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A lot of times we're thinking of kind of the verb form of it Like I made a choice between these options But if you go into the the grocery store later today and you go to the the choice meat section

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The word choice there is used more as an adjective it's it's describing the type of meat

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It's the type of meat that had that is favorable over the other lesser favorable meat And so when you talk about something that is choice, you're not always talking about necessarily

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God choosing something for no apparent reason But you're choosing that meat because it's a favorable meat

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There's a reason to have that the choice of that meat. And so the question becomes Really in this debate is

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Does God really favor some people over others and and let's just look at that question, okay?

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So does God favor? Certain persons over others.

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So was there a consistency here? What was RC talking about? It's on this it's on the little green board

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Unconditional election. Okay, so let's let's let's go back And and let's let's let's let him

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Speak for himself here. What what was RC talking about Armenia as the reform view is called unconditional election

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Meaning by this that there is no foreseen action or condition met by us

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That induces God to decide to save us But that election okay, so there's there's nothing

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We don't do anything that induces God to save us

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That's that's RC's assertion. That is the reform. There is there is no condition that we fulfill

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All right upon God's Sovereign decision to save whomsoever.

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He is pleased to say Okay to save whomsoever. He is pleased to say it is

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God's Choice Unconditional election that is what

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RC Sproul was addressing, right? So can we assume?

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Can we assume that Leighton Flowers is actually responding to what RC Sproul said? Can we assume that?

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I mean if Leighton wants to go, nah, I was just playing it for the fun It was just a nice background stuff, you know gave me a chance to take a drink of water, you know

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No, obviously he wants people to think that he's responding to the great

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RC Sproul So you would think he's responding to what RC Sproul actually said

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Which is about God's? choice and His assertion that God's choice is not based upon man's actions

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Okay so far so good Why do I have to belabor that because we're dealing with Leighton Flowers and Because Leighton Flowers can change the meaning of any word.

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He wants to even when they're his own words in his own video That's what he's done here accusing me of misrepresenting him when the context of his own words is

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Exactly what I said it was without a doubt Okay Anybody that can do that.

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You've got to establish every single I don't expect him to believe this I don't expect him to he's gonna leave that article up He's gonna be quoting from it three years from now.

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I Realized this is what you're dealing with with Leighton Flowers that's just Look at his look at his videos.

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Look how many I mean the the description that is given is former

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Calvinistic professor Explaining why Calvinism is not biblical. That's former

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Calvinist professor explains why Calvinism not biblical. That's that's the actual title to his video page and I'm on that video page all over the place all over the place

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Okay, so that's what RC is talking about. Let's listen Carefully and that can get a little confusing because we could also say that God can save whomever he chooses to save Okay, the question is is he said how how

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I would be really interested in knowing how that works Can God save anyone he chooses to save how

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Is he not dependent in Leighton Flowers perspective? upon the autonomous free will act of the man

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Does not God desire to save everyone is not God trying to save everyone So, how can you say

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God can save whoever he wants? How would that how would that work? I would like to see how that would how that would function

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In people for no apparent reason or is he saving people? for a reason, okay now this very very important and pull that down for just a second because I have

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I Took the time There it is and let me go there.

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Oh, I don't like that That takes over Unfortunately Take that out and if that's big enough to focus in on it

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That would be good. Okay, I took the time To transcribe this whole thing

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Whatever the question is Is he saving people for no apparent reason or is he saving people for a reason stop right there?

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This man claims to have once been a Calvinist. I have been contacted by at least half a dozen people a

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Couple of which worked for him during this period of time Who has said no way no way

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I knew him then He wasn't a Calvinist he was no way

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I Hope that's the case. I really hope that because if he really was then he is guilty of Constant misrepresentation of his former belief constant every single video.

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It's that bad No Calvinist believes that God is saving people for no apparent reason

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What we're saying is God is saving not saving people based upon their actions their fulfillment of any conditions or anything else

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He has a reason it is to the praise of his glorious grace

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And that's the greatest reason or ever has been that's greater than any human reason it could be given But it's just constant with him just constant.

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He can't get away with it get away from it because He has one understanding of Calvinism.

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It's an errant one. It's wrong But that's what he's refuted and that's all he can refute.

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He can't refute the real thing. So he refutes a straw man There you go. So is he saving people for no apparent reason or is he saving people for a reason in other words?

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besides some secret hidden counsel that we can't possibly know about see this is

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This is Consistent throughout flowers material is that he rejects the existence of God's decree

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I don't know how God creates without a decree. I don't know what gives consistency

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I don't know what basis he grounds God's future knowledge without that decree

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That's one of the maddening things about trying to deal with latent flowers and why I try to avoid dealing with latent flowers

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If you listened to his encounter with Chris date on unbelievable That was the thing that was so maddening is

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That he doesn't take a stance Well, you know mullet ism, you know, and in fact,

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I'm I am convinced that if the Baptist faith and message of the

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Southern Mass Convention Did not preclude open theism if it allowed if it left the door open for open theism the consistent

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Theology Especially his assertion that man in his autonomy can create actions

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Independently from God that is so in perfect harmony with open theism.

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I Am convinced if it were not if it would not result in his losing his job He'd be an open theist that would be

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I he doesn't believe it's heretical. He obviously Has warm feelings toward open theism, but I think he knows in his heart of hearts, man

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I wish I could be an open theist Well, maybe you will be someday but the point is

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He doesn't say Well, it could be simple foreknowledge. It could be this it could be that it could be who knows, you know

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He doesn't take a position. So it's easy for him to attack someone who isn't taking a position because he hasn't taken one so we're standing over here on this hill that we have defined and we say this is important and He rushes the hill and you fight him off and then he runs off to another hill and then you try to attack him over There runs off to another hill.

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You can't fight an opponent like that Because he won't take a position on this very issue

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So it's real easy to say. Oh, no. No, no, you you can't say that. Oh, no, you can't say it You're wrong about this. You're it's real easy to do that when you are not yourself having the

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Integrity to put a stake down and say here's what it is Here's what the

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Bible's teaching that is Maddening, but it's part of the process of dealing with this quote -unquote traditionalism

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So hidden counts that we can't possibly know about some unconditional reason that is not there

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Okay, in other words the Calvinist will often say we just don't know what the reason is to the praise of his glorious grace the

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Glorification of the triune God if you were a Calvinist, you know this But you are so focused

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Layton upon Humanizing all of this. It's all on the human level. There can't be a divine level above your great intellects understanding

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It's all given on the human level you see so The Calvinist will say we just don't know what the reason is.

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In other words, it's not a human reason It's not a creaturely reason. It's not a reason that is that is

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Identifiable on the nice little simple plane of creatures But if you had been a

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Calvinist if you had had any knowledge of what you believed Then you would have known that the much higher reason deeper more lasting

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Valid reason is the decision of father son and spirit to glorify themselves and redemption of a particular people through the

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Incarnation the outpouring of the Holy Spirit of God. We have a Trinitarian gospel. You have a human gospel very much human gospel

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All focused on man not upon God's purposes He continues therefore

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Can you say with certainty? There is no reason based upon our what's the next word folks choices our

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Choices. See I had people running around yesterday. Well Jesus is the choice chosen person and and we're choice in him and see you're misrepresenting him

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This is what he said folks every single one of you running around in Twitter yesterday with your hair on fire

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You're misrepresenting laying flowers. Look at his words. I kept saying to all of you Would you just read the transcript?

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I took the time to type it out. Would you read it? Not a one would nope.

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Nope. No, you're just you're just a mean terrible horrible arrogant nasty person Therefore can you say with certainty there is no reason based upon our

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Choices or our Decisions and please note the next phrase

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Independently of God Independently of God this is the flowers we are autonomous creatures we can create

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Realities and decisions unknown to God again, how does God know the future? How does

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God know the future in this system? This is the very essence of open theism

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That the free creature can independently of God act in such a way and that's why

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God can't know He would make the perfect Open theist and I think the only reason he is not

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I would love to see where his latent flowers put out a video on the errors open theism

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Is that out there anybody could someone look can someone look at the at the Soteriology one -on -one thing is there is there is there

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I'd love to see the video on the errors of open theism From latent flowers perspective because foundationally he's right there with them.

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He's right there with them Independently of God so our choices our decisions

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Independently of God listen that would cause him to Show favor to one person over another

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Those are his words. They are not my words. They are not my interpretation of his words.

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They are his words that is the context of the choice meets analogy and He created it and he did so In response to R .C.

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Sproul who specifically was saying it is God's choice not man's choice.

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It's Unconditional election. It's God's freedom and he's saying it's man's freedom It's our choices independently of God that cause

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God to show favor to one person over another Those are his words.

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That's the context this debate is done Every accusation he made has just been proven to be an absolute bold -faced lie

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All you got to do is stop the tape long enough to type the words out and put them on the screen stunning

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It's right there How can you? Pure documentation

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Any of you can sit there say oh you're misrepresenting him. You aren't living in this world. What color is the sky in your world?

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You are not dealing with things honestly or truthfully or rationally There's no way to have a conversation with someone who faced with this evidence go no

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So one more time our Choices our

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Decisions independently of God that would cause him to show favor to one person over another

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You know when we ask about elections, so he's Unconditional election choices.

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He's conflating them When we ask about election we are talking about mainly

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God having favor on somebody him choosing somebody over someone else

41:18

So he's putting choice Election favor. He's conflating all of them matter of fact whenever we use the word choice a

41:30

Lot of times we are thinking of the kind of kind of the verb form of it

41:37

Well, let's stop right there Yeah, this is why

41:43

We challenge flowers exegetically and he answers with analogies

41:50

Because he doesn't do exegesis. He didn't do exegesis in the debate on Romans 9 He doesn't do exegesis at all when he was on Unbelievable with Chris date date would present scriptures.

42:02

He'd present stories He'd give a scripture and then tell a story He doesn't do exegesis.

42:09

It ain't his thing So here's the problem

42:15

The only meaningful way to talk about terms like election Choice and favor is from the inspired words of Scripture Not from your analogies in English 2 ,000 years later, but that's what he's doing

42:33

That's what he does right here Do we hear anything about? Kaleo Do we hear anything about the the substantival forms?

42:45

Do we go into Ephesians 1 or Romans 8 and 9? When when when Paul says

42:50

I endure all things the sake of the elect the chosen Do we have any do we go in there and look at those terms in the original languages so as to have some idea

43:00

No No instead, but you know a lot of times we are thinking kind of the verb form of it

43:07

Like I made a choice between these options But if you go into the grocery store later today

43:16

Now folks, I didn't force latent flowers To come up with the choice meats analogy.

43:25

I had nothing to do with it He's gonna have to live with it.

43:31

He's stuck with it. The memes themselves are so good and I am going to Arby's after I get done here because they've got the meats.

43:41

I mean, I'm gonna take a picture I'm gonna take a picture of my double roast beef sandwich.

43:47

I'm gonna do it for two reasons Because they've got the meats because yesterday Jeff Durbin said

43:52

Arby's is of Satan There is now division in the leadership of apology at church

43:59

Over this very issue of Arby's Jeff. You're just wrong I have challenged Jeff to a public debate on The issue of the godliness or a satanic origin of Arby's and I'm going to prove my point today by going to Arby's but I Didn't force him to do this.

44:16

I didn't there. I had nothing to do about him deciding, you know If you go into the grocery store later today and you go to the choice meat section

44:28

The word choice there is used more of an adjective. It's describing the type of meat

44:35

It's the type of meat that is favorable over the other less favorable meat now

44:45

Would you stop laughing in there? I'm trying trying to be serious Well, not really.

44:51

I was earlier, but I just had to let the blood pressure drop a little bit It is stunning that someone with a doctorate who teaches in a

45:06

Christian school Would make an analogy like this and not recognize the utter impropriety of Not only switching verbs and nouns to adjectives

45:17

But pretending that doing this in English is a valid way of handling the

45:23

Bible Okay There's no there's there's no defense of this There's none.

45:29

It's just it's absurd If you're taking a basic level Graduate level undergraduate level hermeneutics class.

45:37

Yeah red mark right through that one But this is Professor Flowers who's making that kind of error and it is an error plain and simple but I'm not the one

45:51

I didn't put anything. I didn't put a gun to his head and say you need to say That the type of meat that is favorable over the other less favorable meat.

46:01

I didn't make him say those words And now he wants it. Well, that doesn't mean

46:08

Really though that God shows favor based upon us being better meat

46:17

Okay Well, let's see what he went on. And so when you talk about something that is choice

46:25

Notice now the description rather than verb. It's moved away. See God doesn't do anything

46:31

God is controlled by man Man makes choices man becomes choice by his choice and that then

46:41

Means that God responds to man's Actions, so when you talk about something that is choice, you are not always talking about necessarily

46:51

God See, he's still thinking God here. He's still thinking election. The context has not changed

46:58

Not always talking about necessarily God choosing something for no apparent reason that is

47:04

God would never do anything based upon his own will his own perfect desire to accomplish his own glorification his

47:13

God doesn't have that but You're choosing that meat because it's a favorable meat

47:22

So we're in the context of the choice of people here

47:30

There's a reason to have the choice of that meat because it's better than the other meat

47:38

So the question becomes really in this debate. I Think there's only one really

47:44

I think I may have typed that wrong. Sorry The question becomes in this debate really in this debate does

47:52

God really favor some people over others Are they choice meat

48:01

Now he might want to say oh, no, no. No, I didn't mean why don't you just come straight out and say wow

48:06

That's that entire analogy stunk I Stunk it up and you

48:14

Caught me I withdraw it that would have been the easy thing to do. But no you had to double down.

48:21

Oh You took it out of context didn't take anything out of context late and just proved it to any

48:29

Semi unbiased person now. I know there are people out there they're watching this and I don't like how he's talking and he's saying mean things and and anybody who is

48:39

Emote controlled by their emotions and that's a large portion of people today

48:44

I get it and if they're the people you're going for they're all yours Because they're not gonna like anything

48:50

I have to say anyways but any Honest hearted person who is rational in their thought that looks at the facts and goes you said this you said this you said

49:03

This yep, that's what you said. There was no misrepresentation period end of discussion. It's done done

49:10

It's all there is to it. You can say well over here. I said and in this video over there. I says Then why'd you say this?

49:18

This is the context these are your words, these are your words now

49:27

As I mentioned it really bothers me that Layton flowers does not take a position on the key issues

49:42

That would allow for an examination of the consistency of his own theology that was illustrated in the encounter with Chris Tate on unbelievable and That allows him then to Emphasize this amazing idea that Mankind autonomously brings about these things that are unknown to God.

50:07

They they they're they're not under God's control. They don't come from God How God can know them then he must say that God can know them.

50:15

So they're not really independent from God. I Mean Layton can any person make a decision that God does not know?

50:23

That God did not know from eternity How then can that be independent of God? But he becomes very offended

50:39

When you raise the reality that it sounds like what he is saying is

50:47

That mankind has the ability in and of himself to make the kind of Decisions and actions that will bring about his own salvation apart from Anything God would do someone sent me this clip and I was amazed

51:11

Here is a Clip, this is a fairly recent. This is a fairly recent interview

51:20

Layton is interviewing Roger Olson the Armenian Armenian. I Mean he is the essence of Armenian Roger Olson will not stay with him

51:34

He goes beyond Olson listen to this exchange between Roger Olson and Layton flowers and realize

51:46

That Roger Olson is the more reformed of the two here that says everything doesn't it?

51:54

They won't agree on this but Olson Demands there has to be they'll call it prevenient grace.

52:02

There has to be divine initiative Who in church history argued against the absolute priority of divine?

52:13

Initiative being first his name was Pelagius There's a reason

52:22

Layton There's a reason Why we say this and you illustrated it right here

52:31

Okay, here we go So you're you're saying my what I just said makes it a tactical right and Yeah, I think that in polemics and theological polemics tactical Things are are sometimes helpful to establish some common ground and to say well look we agree about this, right?

52:54

Here's where we really disagree and since Arminius did say it I'm just saying to Calvinists don't say that classical

53:03

Arminianism is semi -plagian Because here's what Arminius said right now whether it was right or not is another question

53:10

I'm just arguing from historical theology that they're wrong when they say

53:15

Arminianism is semi -plagian ism Now what whether they're wrong when they say the traditional

53:20

Baptist view that you're describing as semi -plagian I'm not going to jump in and defend

53:27

You know the traditional Southern Baptist view as you've expressed it because that's not quite what

53:32

I understand Arminianism to believe I'll let you and the guys you mentioned defend yourselves and I think it would be helpful in this

53:43

What's the right word I don't want to use any kind of violent language, but in this debate Yeah in this debate it would be helpful if we all non -Calvinist lined up kind of together and said look we agree with you that the natural fallen person is incapable of making a faith decision apart from a special work of the

54:07

Holy Spirit freeing their will to say yes And that comes through the gospel preached and taught and communicated to them

54:16

And if we all lined up and said that then this whole accusation of semi -plagianism might just die away, and I wish it would

54:24

Yeah, and I don't like the term semi -plagianism because I think it is kind of the boogeyman

54:29

And it thwarts a good discussion, and I can understand the desire to just avoid that discussion altogether

54:36

But but in my opinion it concedes too much And I do think that well the fact that semi -plagianism didn't begin until Beza And at least the terminology of semi -plagianism didn't begin until Beza in the 15 you know what 1566 or something like that I think that's from David Allen's article on why

54:56

Calvinism I mean why the traditional statement cannot be Semi -plagianism which I have at sociology 101 for those who are interested in getting to the nuances of that he does go

55:04

Through that really in detail to explain that the the issues that they are discussing originally between Pelagius and Augustine Do not really pertain to our our nuanced differences even in this discussion

55:19

And he explains very clearly why that is with references to original sources But the reason

55:25

I push back on that is to be able to say you know I think we should be able to stand together to be able to say that That that we need the gospel that the gospel is the power of God into salvation not that the gospel plus some

55:39

Supernatural extra work that has to happen is is the power of God into salvation and and that's that's again

55:46

It may be a nuance in the way we do it I just think that when it comes to other issues of discussion that may be a tactical side for me

55:54

Is that there's other tactical issues that when you when you concede that point for example when you said?

56:01

That the person has to be freed Okay, so so a person could be freed and then not saved what are they being you know what

56:09

I mean So in other words, they can be preveniently graced And and made alive or quickened or freed to some degree

56:17

But still but still refuse the gospel and be lost so they can they can be freed and still bound at the same time

56:26

Well, they can be freed and say no And that's the essence of free will

56:32

But that they have the option to say no to God's offer of free grace But they also have the option of saying yes, right and without prevenient grace they really don't have that choice

56:46

But no, I don't know this is yeah this getting into the weeds.

56:51

I think Guess I would just push to say that if somebody's in bondage

56:57

They can still admit they're in bondage without being freed from the bondage like an alcoholic for example an alcoholic and still be addicted to alcohol and say

57:04

I am addicted to alcohol and I need to be checked into a rehab facility and submit to that without being Freed from the addiction first and in the same way.

57:12

I think that we can be still in bondage to sin But have the capacity to admit or confess yeah, we're

57:18

I'm in bondage to sin, and I need I need a Savior I need help and and therefore to be regenerated

57:24

Through faith not you know pre -faith regeneration, which I know you you also reject the concept of pre -faith regeneration

57:31

But it seems as if there's some kind of regenerative work at least or at least a portion of regenerative work

57:38

That's happening on the Armenian structure That's that to me the tactical problem

57:44

I guess is where I'm getting at is that seems to make it more tactically difficult to argue against you know

57:50

Sproul and others version of preview, you know this pre -faith regeneration this effectual work of God that you know has to happen in order for somebody to believe the gospel and That that's difficult for me at least to get over Okay Okay Look did you hear did you listen to that?

58:14

Did you hear that that that's that's extremely helpful. It was there was there something you wanted to I Just thought it was really interesting that they were appealing to I guess we'll call it dead people's anonymous

58:29

You know you talked about it's not like it's a a or something like that They still can make and it's like okay, so dead we're back to the moral neutral ground right prevenient grace

58:38

But then as far as the choices go we're still you know People aren't actually all that Dead no of course in with no

58:48

You know we're back to you know the he uses the AA analogy, and I'm like well actually dead people's analogy

58:54

Well see the thing is we we can agree with light and flowers The not only is there just no biblical basis for the concept at all of prevenient grace.

59:05

It's just not there It is the cellophane tape of Arminianism And if you've ever tried to hold something together with cellophane tape it doesn't hold together very long and certainly not under much pressure

59:18

So I he's right that it doesn't make any sense

59:25

To have someone partially freed partially regenerated whatever by some

59:31

Prevenient grace concept that that doesn't make any sense, but what's Layton's?

59:37

Why is Layton saying that? Because he is denying that there needs to be any

59:46

Exertion of divine power to make it possible for mankind to savingly believe

59:59

Never mind that Jesus said you're not able to no no no no no no no no we're gonna run someplace to the Old Testament Find someplace where somebody did something good, and that's good enough.

01:00:07

We don't have to worry about Jesus Explication of any of that stuff But once again

01:00:13

Who's the guy in? History that argued that we have this capacity in and of ourselves without the necessity of Grace, I'm all we need grace because we need the

01:00:28

Gospels of grace What he just argued you just listen to it is

01:00:34

He's arguing against Olson Because Olson is saying there needs to be prevenient grace prevenient grace doesn't save But it brings a person to a position where they can make that choice

01:00:48

He's saying we don't need to be brought to a position. We can just always make that choice Who said that in history?

01:00:56

Give you a hint his name starts with a P and ends with an aegis. I just play him folks.

01:01:07

I Just play him. Thanks to the individual on Facebook And sent me that clip because I Late nights want you to understand something you're watching this you're recording this you're gonna do three and a half four hours ten hours by the time we get done of responses

01:01:25

Repeating the same old errors over and over and over and over and over again, and I will not be listening

01:01:31

I Have seven other topics to be dealing with like I did on the last program, and they're far more important I Do not listen to your stuff.

01:01:43

The only reason I knew about any of this stuff is because other people do and They send me links

01:01:50

You do you do live? responses When we're talking of when

01:01:56

Jeff and I are doing almost anything like with the Andy Stanley and stuff like that you are Obsessed with this.

01:02:02

This is your you are so angry but it's an Absolutely accurate description one string banjo.

01:02:10

This is your thing. This is what you live for and Your response will demonstrate that your response will demonstrate that but Let's finish this up fact number one

01:02:26

No misrepresentation Context spot -on from Sprawl through the setup through the analogy to the conclusion spot -on exact No question about it

01:02:46

The words have been put on the screen. You've listened in with your own ears. There is absolutely no reason to Even waste a moment with any argument that your words were not clear

01:03:00

They were clear you may be embarrassed by them very much so I would be you should be

01:03:07

The error you made of conflating choice in English over against the original languages on obvious basic level mistakes

01:03:17

You're a professor sir There's no excuse for it. None now

01:03:23

One last thing he started we started talking on Twitter the night before last

01:03:33

And He was saying well, we need to house. We need to get Michael Brown involved to Reconciliation and all the rest of stuff and I'm just like Right.

01:03:44

Okay, so you put out an article accusing me of misrepresentation. I didn't misrepresent you

01:03:49

Here's the facts and now I somehow need to been get involved in reconciliation with you.

01:03:55

You're I'm one of the major I mean probably

01:04:02

Sproul MacArthur Piper myself you take those four and let's throw Jeff Durbin in for the fun of it.

01:04:08

You take those five That's 90 % of what you produce in Soteriology 101

01:04:14

Okay You are not 90 % of what

01:04:19

I do You are not 3 % of what I do. So not even not even going there.

01:04:27

So I had been thinking and I've mentioned this to a few people

01:04:33

I had been thinking about What I had been thinking about a debate

01:04:49

In Dallas and So I posted the following tweet tweet

01:04:56

But you are right We do need to talk but we need to talk about a desire

01:05:01

I have had for a few months to set up a debate with you in Dallas Here's what

01:05:08

I wrote Romans 8 28 through 34 you and I no notes no

01:05:15

English texts Greek only exegesis only 30 -minute openings

01:05:21

March 2020 what say you That's what I tweeted now why in the world would

01:05:28

I do that? It's a specific text There has already been tremendous criticism of The last debate because one of us provide exegesis and the other one did not

01:05:43

I said no notes, you know why? Because I remember sitting here. I was sitting over well from your perspective

01:05:50

Would be that side but from my perspective I was on the left side of the podium.

01:05:55

Okay from the speakers perspective and You got up there and You had your opening presentation in those

01:06:08

Cello type things, you know, it wasn't the type thing you put through the machine, but you know what

01:06:14

I mean? so you had your whole presentation laid out and You had your rebuttal laid out and you had your questions laid out and you had your closing laid out

01:06:26

That ain't much of an interactive debate when you've got it all written out beforehand I had nothing but a

01:06:36

Greek text Well, I had an English text there for the Old Testament stuff I don't think I had a

01:06:41

Hebrew up there with me at that point, but I had no notes. I Just went through Romans 9.

01:06:47

That's what we were supposed to be doing. And so when I said no notes What I'm saying is get away from all the pre -programmed stuff deal with the text then

01:07:00

I said Greek only no English text and His response was I don't know Greek that well

01:07:06

Well, then don't write articles where you pretend to redefine pro -egno for us straight up refutation

01:07:17

There are people taking seriously because you're a professor you see so since you're a professor and you tell people that pro -egno means that God knew the

01:07:24

Jews in the old days. He just knew about him That's not what pro -egno means there and it would collapse on cross -examination and you know it, you know it pro -egno

01:07:39

Greek only, exegesis only, 30 -minute openings because remember what remember what the excuse was last time? Well, you only had 20 minutes

01:07:45

You can't go through Romans 9 in 20 minutes. I did So Romans 8, 28 -34

01:07:53

That's that's a much shorter section 30 minutes plenty of time He laughed it off Laughed it off.

01:08:01

Like oh, that's not even serious Okay. Well, let's let's debate total inability.

01:08:07

He already did that. Remember? That's what the last debate was. You changed the topic You don't want to do exegesis because you can't

01:08:15

It's all there is to it It's all there is to it so Am I understanding the looks of the mirror it looks at the window there that he actually called?

01:08:25

You wanted to come on? Okay, just to be clear. I think somebody punked him.

01:08:31

You think somebody what? So I think someone punked him He said that somebody had just texted him saying that we were inviting his call.

01:08:38

Oh So, you know, I'm like no, we're just about to wrap up the show. We're not so that's why he was calling

01:08:45

Sorry about that Leighton. I have no earthy idea Well, you got the text so you

01:08:52

I would I Would talk to that person and say what are you thinking?

01:08:58

What are you thinking? Whoever that was shame on you shame on you

01:09:05

Grow up Wow amazing. So there you go Boy I don't know where that came from.

01:09:15

That's disturbing very disturbing They're not look at Twitter for a while.

01:09:21

Anyways, there you go folks I'd still like to see something happen.

01:09:29

I actually in a later Tweet said, okay, if you're not willing to do that Maybe dr.

01:09:35

Pritchett would be willing to do that But I still think it needs to be in those parameters. I think people want to hear an actually exegetical debate and So when

01:09:50

I say Just bring the original language text. How else could you then do the debate?

01:09:55

It would have to be exegetically based All that other stuff that keeps getting in the way run off to something over here this guy there.

01:10:03

No, let's just deal with the text. I Maybe it's just my audience. Maybe this isn't your audience.

01:10:09

Maybe that's my why you might not want to do this But my audience wants to hear that They want to see that they want to hear that They want to hear the two sides going directly at it on the only meaningful and long -lasting basis for making a decision the original languages of the text itself

01:10:29

There you go We'll see if anything ever comes of of that Whoo, there's radio free

01:10:38

Geneva for today. Today is Thursday. So next week looks

01:10:45

Pretty normal actually For about I think there's a even may even be a week after that.

01:10:50

I'm not sure maybe not anyways July's coming and I'll be doing programs from Colorado Once July comes along, but thanks for watching the program today.