Ignatius of Antioch: Who Reads Him in Context? (#3)

Ignatius on Docetism and the Reality of Christ’s Suffering

It says, not as certain unbelievers say, that he suffered in appearance only. It is they who exist in appearance only. There is another very, very, very, very, very, very, very important point. This idea of appearance only.

Remember what I said earlier? The Dosetics told stories. Jesus only seemed to suffer. He didn't really suffer because he didn't have a physical body to suffer with. Now, he says it, not as certain unbelievers say.

So he's talking about unbelievers, he's talking about their enemies, and he says that he suffered in appearance only. It is they who exist in appearance only. Indeed, their fate will be determined by what they think.

They will become disembodied and demonic.

Wow.

What he's saying is these individuals, these individuals are not, these are not people who are not in the church. They are condemned. This belief, this teaching is absolutely opposite to the Christian faith.

Okay.

If I keep going like this, we're not even going to finish today. So I've got to stop expanding upon every point. By the way, this is just how the classes go. I mean, this is, that's why I really love that class, is we just sit around and we get to do all this for more than just an hour.

Anyway, section three, for I know and believe that he was in the flesh even after the resurrection. See the point there? See the point there? For I know and believe that he was in the flesh, incarnation, 1 John chapter 2, 1 John chapter 3, 1 John chapter 4, 1 John chapter 1, 1 John chapter 1, that which we've touched, seen, felt, et cetera, et cetera.

He was in the flesh even after the resurrection. And when he, notice those people say, ah, see the resurrection, it's all spiritual. And when he came to Peter and those with him, he said to them, take hold of me, handle me and see that I am not a, now here's, I would love to expand on this.

We talked about in class. I am not a disembodied demon. And the term in the Greek is daimonion. In Luke, it is pneuma. And it's not unclean pneuma in Luke. There is a, there is a comment at the bottom of the page here in Holmes's edition, compare Luke 24, 39, the now lost gospel according to the Hebrews and the teaching or possibly preaching of Peter are reported to have contained the same or a very similar saying.

And that's interesting. Where did it come from? I don't know. Was this the source that then led to the others, vice versa? I don't know. But that would be the first thing that I would, I would question is probably what Ignatius has referenced to here or has received here is he seems to know Matthew, but possibly.

Not Luke.

And if he had Luke, then he'd have the correction to that. As far as the source is available to him, that takes us into all the discussions of, of the early church and the canon of scripture and the development of scripture over time in the sense of what, what books were available in what areas.

And again, this is, this is why you take classes when they're offered on such subjects like this because you have more time to do it. I continue on. And immediately they touched him and believe being close to unite with his flesh and blood.

Okay.

Stop right there. What's he talking about? He's talking about the resurrection. He's talking about what we would identify as, as the, those post resurrection appearances when Jesus enters into the room and notice what he says.

And immediately they touched him and bleed being close to unite with his flesh and blood. Nothing about Eucharist here, nothing about transubstantiation, nothing at all. If they're associated with this flesh and blood, what he's talking about is the reality of his physical existence.

He was truly raised from the dead, right?

Okay.

Just reading it here. If you can come up with something else, let me know, but we're just reading it here for this reason. They too despised death. Indeed, they proved to be greater than death. And after his resurrection, he ate and drank with them like one who is composed of flesh, although spiritually he was united with the father.

What's he talking about? It's you say, okay, we've got it already. Yeah, well I know, but we need to keep the theme going here all the way through so that we can hear exactly what Ignatius is saying. We're getting close.

We're getting close. Number four. Now I am advising you of these things, dear friends, knowing that you're of the same mind, but I am guarding you in advance against wild beasts in human form, men whom you must not only not welcome, but if possible, not even meet.

Nevertheless, do pray for them if somehow they might repent, difficult though it may.

Be.

Now he's talking about false teachers. He's talking about people who are going around and he is, he, these individuals are teaching these things. He's saying, do not welcome them. Do not meet them. Do not bring them into your fellowship whatsoever.

He says, Jesus, but Jesus Christ, our true life has power over this. Isn't it nice to know that Christians have always believed even when facing false teaching, even when facing the horrible result of false teaching, seeing people give in to false teaching, that in the midst of that, he says, but Jesus Christ, our true life has power over this.

Isn't that what we all say? The Lord is still in control. For if these things were done by our Lord in appearance only, then I am in chains in appearance only. I love that. If all this stuff that Jesus did, the suffering, everything, it demonstrated his true physicality was just simply a ruse.

It was just simply an appearance only then, Hey, you know what? These chains that I'm wearing, I'm being dragged to Rome to die. They're an appearance only to doesn't really help me much.

Does it?

Because I still can't get out of them. Even if I think they're an appearance only, why moreover, have I surrendered myself to death, to fire, to sword, to beasts, but in any case near the sword means near to God with the beast means with God only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ that I may suffer together with him.

I endure everything because he himself who is perfect man empowers me. So again, he's on his way to his own martyrdom. He knows what's going to happen to him. He cannot help but have that come out in what he is saying.

Ignatius, the Prophets, and the Gospel Against False Teachers

Section five, certain people ignorantly deny him or rather have been denied by him, which is interesting for their advocates of death rather than the truth. You're not politically correct in dealing with heresy, is he?

He's we might, we might learn something from, from how he handles things. Neither the prophecies nor the law of Moses have persuaded them. In other words, scriptural exhortation and demonstration of the physical nature of the movement of the incarnation, resurrection of Christ, not persuaded them, nor thus far the gospel, nor our own individual suffering for they sit, they think the same thing about.

Us.

Boy, isn't that the parallel? Isn't that what happens today? Certainly is for what good does it do me if someone praises me, but blasphemes my Lord by not confessing that he was clothed in flesh. I don't know how much clearer that can get.

I mean, even if someone says, well, you know, I like the work you do as such and such over there, but you know, I don't believe in the resurrection of Christ. That doesn't do me any good. That doesn't do me any good at all.

And that's what he's referring to here is even when people say, oh man, you know, Ignatius, he's, he's obviously a very faithful man. He's suffered many things, but I don't believe that Jesus Christ came to flesh.

Well, you're still the antichrist despite what you said about me is what he's saying.

Here.

Anyone who does not acknowledge this thereby denies him completely and is clothed in a.

Corpse.

Who is he talking about? The ascetic false teachers deny that Jesus Christ really came to flesh given, uh, that they are unbelievers, a pista. It did not seem worthwhile to me to record their names indeed.

Far be it from me even to remember them until such time as they changed their mind, regard the passion, which is our resurrection. And so he say, I'm not even, I'm not even gonna name names. I mean, I could give you names, these false teachers, but I am not going to record their names unless they repent.

Now, those are the first five sections. We've read every word of the epistle to the Smyrnians. I did not find anything. I didn't spend a lot of time, but I went to those two websites, the two major apologetics websites, the two major publications.

I didn't see any of what I just mentioned to you on those websites. I did see mentions of the aesthetics, but it was all in a quotation from J and D Kelly. Um, but nothing about the constant hammering away flesh and blood, flesh and blood, flesh and blood, and all the discussion of how we've been united to Christ, flesh and blood with no hint of Aristotelian categories of accidents and, and substance and transubstantiation and a term that wouldn't be coined for another 900 years or more, none of that up to this.

Point.

Have we had to bring in anything outside of the context of what he's talking about to understand what he's saying?

No.

Other than understanding that the aesthetics denied the physical incarnation of Jesus Christ and said he suffered an appearance only. And we've been able to pick that up from the text. I mean, if we hadn't known that externally, we still would have figured it out from what was being said here.

That is the entire preceding context of the quotation that Tim Staples uses and is found in all of these, you know, I mean, how many times we heard converts, I just look at Ignatius. Well now we get to the section where it comes from section six of the epistle to the Smyrnians.