Predestination and Election (White vs Barber)

The Debate Format and Opening Prayer

Dr. James White, whom many of you know from the debates and conferences on Long Island, he is a minister at the Phoenix Reform Baptist Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and the author of many books, and one of which I'm hoping that you all, whatever side you're on, I hope many of you will sign up on this sheet that I'm going to put on the piano, and during breaks you can give your name, address, and phone number, and please print legibly so we can understand what you're writing there.

This book is Dr. White's latest book, which is on the theme that we're debating tonight, The Potter's Freedom, and this was written in response to a book by Norman Geisler, Chosen but Free, and if you're interested in this topic, and I hope you'll be even more interested in it after this debate is through, you can sign up and find out how to get the book later.

On.

And, ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to introduce you to my dear friend, Dr. James White. Our next debater is Paul Barber, who is a minister at the Northborough Church of Christ in Northborough, Massachusetts, and he is going to be, obviously, since this is a debate, taking the opposite side of the issue, and let me let you know what the thesis is for the debate.

Dr. James White is going to be defending Calvinistic predestination, and to define that, that God has chosen a fixed number of souls out of the masses of lost humanity before the foundation of the world to receive the gift of salvation, and this choice on the part of God was made completely apart from his having foreseen any future belief or action on the part of those who were chosen.

And Paul Barber will oppose that thesis that Dr. White is defending. The opening remarks are going to be 25 minutes each, and then after the opening remarks by each debater, there will be seven-minute rebuttals, then we're going to take a 10-minute break, and then we're going to go into cross-examinations where each of the debaters questions the other for 15 minutes each, and then we're going to have five-minute final statements from each of the debaters.

And now I'd like to, before this begins, I'd like to have us all bow in a word of prayer. Father in heaven, your word is so precious, your word is so glorious, and your word contains the only way that we may be saved.

Lord, we ask of you tonight to not let the presuppositions of traditions of men cloud our thinking, but let us be open to only the pure biblical truth that you have offered. We ask of you, Lord, that true Christians in this room may be strengthened and edified in their faith, and that those who are not, anyone who is lost, who is in here today, that they may come, even before this night is over, they may become a true disciple of Jesus Christ and bow the knee to you and receive everlasting life by your grace.

We love you, Lord, and we just ask of you to bless this evening and let everything be pleasing in your sight and glorifying to your name. And we pray in the name of your son, Jesus Christ, amen. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, first we're going to hear a 25-minute opening statement from Dr. James White in defense of Calvinistic predestination.

James White on Divine Election, John 6, Romans 8, and Romans 9

It is good to be with you this evening. I would like to start off by saying that it was my understanding that both of us were going to be having some sort of a presentation, so I don't want anyone to think like I am taking unfair advantage by utilization of my little old computer here.

But since we do have so much to discuss and the topic is so important, I think it will be useful to be able to look at the scriptures, and I hope you brought your Bible with you. The problem is, in a debate where you only have 25 minutes, which is considerably less period of time than most of us spend in a sermon, it's very difficult to really summarize the information.

It would be very difficult for you to be following along with your Bible, but we'll do the best that we possibly can. I think the first thing that we need to understand is what it is we're debating, and I have on the screen the words of the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith in regards to this issue.

By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace, others being left to act in their sin, to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.

These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained are particularly and unchangeably designed and their number so certain and definite that it cannot be either increased or diminished. Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purposes, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature, as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.

And so the assertion is that God has an elect people, that is a specific people, that election is personal, it's not merely a class, but that election is unto salvation and that it involves specific individuals, and that it is not based upon God looking into the future and seeing what a person is going to do, that they are going to believe in him, instead it is based upon the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will alone.

Now I believe most of us would agree that election is either the great safeguard of the sovereign freedom of the glorious God, Jehovah, or if it is untrue, it is a tremendous blasphemy against God's name and character.

I don't believe that there is any middle ground when we speak of this issue of election unto divine grace. Now this should be a biblical debate, because I believe in these doctrines because the Bible teaches them, not because of some tradition that I was raised with or anything along those.

Lines.

The Bible speaks of election, predestination, it speaks of the elect, those God has chosen, et cetera, et cetera. So the question is not whether the Bible teaches election, but what the Bible means when it teaches the doctrine of election.

Now I believe the constant desire of man is to limit the freedom of God and safeguard the freedom of the creature. That is, it is the bent of the religions of men to attempt to in some way cause God to become our servant and we become the sovereigns over him so that he is only allowed to do that which we allow him to do in our lives.

Therefore I believe every possible explanation of God's eternal election and predestination has been offered at some point in time by someone. We must therefore, I believe, submit our feelings, no matter what your feelings might be, no matter what your traditions might be, your emotions, whatever it is, they must be submitted to the overriding authority of the scriptures, the word of God.

Now I believe that the person who believes in sola scriptura, that is the scripture alone is the rule of faith for Christians, and believes in tota scriptura, that is we must believe all of scripture, such a person must believe in divine election.

I believe that election is the only consistent exegetical conclusion that one can come to based upon the study of the text of scripture itself. I believe divine election is taught throughout the pages of scripture.

God's utter freedom and sovereignty is expressed many times, for example in these words from Psalm 135 .6, whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and in earth and in the seas and in all deeps. In Psalm 115 .3, but our God is in the heavens, he does whatever he pleases.

In Isaiah 14 .27, for the Lord of hosts has planned it, and who can frustrate it? And as for his stretched out hand, who can turn it back? In Daniel chapter 4, even a pagan king recognizes as he speaks of the most high when he praised and honored him, he says, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion.

His kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but he does according to his will in the hosts of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth, that's us, and no one can ward off his hand or say to him, what have you done?

God is sovereign in the affairs of men, as Isaiah recorded it, woe to the one who quarrels with his maker, an earthenware vessel, that's us, among the vessels of earth. Will the clay say to the potter, what are you doing?

Or the thing you are making say he has no hands, obviously that cannot possibly take place. Instead, the God who is the foundation of divine election is the God who works all things after the counsel of his will, Ephesians chapter 1, verse 11 says.

Now, because of all of this, the question is, does the Bible teach us the doctrine of election? And here we turn to specific passages of scripture that teach the doctrine of election without possibility of refutation, but given the constraints of time, we can only look at a few of them.

We'll look at three sections, and we'll look at them as closely as time will allow us to do so. The first, if you'll turn your Bibles, is in John chapter 6, verses 36 through 45, or you can just read the text on the screen if you would like.

John chapter 6, Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not hunger, and he who believes in me will never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me, and yet do not believe.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent.

Me.

This is the will of him who sent me, that of all that he has given me, I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in him will have eternal life, and I myself will raise him up on the last day.

The Jews begin to grumble, and Jesus continues by saying, no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. Now, let's look very closely at the passage.

First of all, verses 35 -36 establish the context of Jesus' words. Why do these surface followers of Jesus truly not believe? They see Jesus, but they don't really believe in Jesus. Why is that? Well, that's what Jesus is going to explain in these words.

He says that all that the Father gives the Son will come to the Son. That is a divine promise. There is a specific body of people who are given by the Father to the Son, and every single one of those people will come to the Son.

He does not say most will. He does not say we'll do our best to get a majority to come. He says all that the Father gives me will come to me. That is the power of God in bringing about the salvation of his elect people.

Please notice something. The giving of a people by the Father to the Son precedes and determines their coming to Christ. In other words, all that the Father gives me will come to me, not the Father will give me whoever he foresees will come to me.

The giving precedes and determines the coming. The act of faith on the part of the individual believer is the result of his being given by the Father to the Son, not the other way around. That is the only way to safeguard the absolute glory of God and salvation.

Also, please notice that this consideration alone renders the God looks into the future and sees who will believe argument unbiblical, because it turns the order of salvation seen in this passage and in many other passages, as we'll see if time allows, completely upside.

Down.

Jesus teaches that it is the Father's will that he lose none of those that are given to him. This is election and the security of the believer together. Christ is able to save his people and his people perfectly.

Otherwise, the words make no sense. How can the Father's will for the Son be that he lose none of those that are given to him if he lacks the ability to save them? Obviously, he has the ability to save them and to save them perfectly.

Next, we notice that the one looking on Jesus in verse 40 and believing must be, in this given context, one of those given by the Father to the Son, one of the elect. The election of that person determines their looking and believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

In John 6, verse 44, where Jesus says, no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, teaches the inability of man to come to Christ outside of the divine drawing, or as John 6, verse 65 puts it, the divine enablement of the Father to believe and to come to the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Father draws the elect to the Son. Those drawn by the Father to the Son are identical to those who are given to the Son in John 6, verse 37. Those that the Father gives to the Son, the Father then draws to the Son.

Why is this? Because only those who are given by the Father to the Son come, and those who are drawn come. That coming in faith, coming to Christ, all the Father gives me will come to me. If you're drawn by the Father, you will come to the Son.

Hence, they are the same individuals, and, and this is very important, often missed in John 6, verse 44, all who are drawn are also raised up. All who are drawn in John 6, verse 44 are also raised up.

Now, this refutes the common allegation that all men are drawn by God to the Son. Unless we are universalists, that is, we believe that everyone's going to be saved, then this passage cannot bear such a meaning.

The hymn of, unless the Father draws him, up at the last day. If you're drawn by the Father to the Son, then you have been given by the Father to the Son, and the Son will save that person perfectly and raise him up at the last day, and that is why glory for salvation belongs to God and to God alone.

Now, some take us over to John 12, 32 at this point, even though it's a completely different context, where Jesus speaks of being lifted up on the cross and drawing all men to himself, and say, see, this refutes this interpretation.

But instead, if you look at John 12, you discover that there Jesus is responding to the coming of Greeks, Gentiles, who are seeking him. Remember, they came to Philip and said, we would like to see Jesus.

In John 12, 32, Jesus speaks of drawing all kinds of men, Jews or Greeks, to himself. Since the cross actually repels the lost, we are told in the New Testament, is foolishness to Greeks, stumbling block to Jews.

It is obvious the cross does not draw all men, but Christ does draw all of his elect people, whether Jew or Gentile, to himself. Now, as time is unfortunately very fleeting, we look at Romans chapter 8, very quickly, verses 28 through 34, where we read from the pen of the apostle Paul, and we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to his purpose.

For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his son so that he would be the firstborn among many brethren. And these whom he predestined, he also called. And these whom he called, he also justified.

And these whom he justified, he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things, Paul asks. If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare his own son, but delivered him over for us all, how will he not also with him freely give us all things?

And who is the us? Verse 33 tells us. Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies, who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is he who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

Now, the golden chain of redemption is laid out here in Romans 8, 28 through 30. Those who are foreknown, and we will see what foreknown means in just a moment, are the ones who are predestined. Those who are predestined, the exact same group, are those who are called, the effectual call of the gospel.

Those who receive that effectual call, those are the ones who are justified. So much for justification by works. Those who are justified are the ones who will be glorified. Every action, and these are all verbs, these are all things God does, God foreknows, God predestines, God calls, God justifies, God glorifies.

There is no place in this golden chain of redemption where man contributes something to his own salvation. It is God who saves the sinner. Every action is a divine action, and every action has the exact same group in mind.

He doesn't foreknow one group and predestine a different group and call a different group and then have a mixed group that are justified. They're all the same elect of God. Now, doesn't foreknown mean that God simply looked into the future and saw who would believe so that men have a free and autonomous will and God is simply looking into the future and he says, oh, I see that John Smith is going to believe in me, so I will elect him unto salvation.

No, it does not mean that, and the word does not bear that meaning. And let me explain why. The word for to foreknow is a verb. It's describing an action of God. It's something God does. God actively foreknows persons, not actions.

It is commonly said, well, God has foreknowledge, which means he passively takes in knowledge of future events. How he has this knowledge of future events is frequently not discussed. I would submit to you that yes, God does know all future events because he decreed them.

He is the creator of all things, including time itself and all the actions in time. But that's not what the word here means. There's a philosophical use of the word foreknowledge, but that's not what the Greek term progenosko means.

It is only used three times in the New Testament with God as the subject. In other words, God's the one doing the action. It is used here in Romans 8 where it's the elect people who are foreknown, in Romans 11 -2 where it is Israel that is foreknown, another people, and 1 Peter 1 -20 where it is Christ who is foreknown.

Now, what does that tell us about the word? That it's personal. And when we look at the Old Testament, it's used the Hebrew term yada to know. There is a personal element of knowledge and knowing that we find there as well.

For example, in Jeremiah 1 -5, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. And look at the parallel term. And before you were born, I consecrated you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nation. These are all personal things.

Exodus 33, the Lord says to Moses, I will also do this thing of which you have spoken, for you have found favor in my sight, and I have known you by name. Well, it's not like God doesn't know everybody by name.

In the sense of having the data in his mind, there is something personal in the fact that he has chosen Moses for a personal relationship with himself. Look at Amos 3 -2. You only have I chosen, the New American Standard says.

But literally, it's the Hebrew word to know. In talking to the people of Israel, you only have I known among all the families of the.

Earth.

But so clear is this idea of choosing. The New American Standard translates it that way. God chose to know or enter into relationship with the elect from eternity past. All those he foreknew he predestined, called, justified, and glorified.

Salvation is holy of the Lord. So when we hear, who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies. Who is the one who condemns? When we read these words, we can see that God saves his elect perfectly.

No one can bring a charge against God's elect.

Why?

For God the Father has given the Son in their place, in their behalf. And the Son ever lives to make intercession for them and to plead his perfect sacrifice in their place. There is no condemnation for them because of the perfection of the work of God in their behalf.

Now, this is the context of the biblical teaching of election found in Romans 9. And these words are self-explanatory. And not only this, but there is Rebecca also when she conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac.

For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to his choice, his election would stand, not because of works, but because of him who calls, it was said to her, the older will serve the younger.

The choice of God is made before the twins have done anything upon which some type of choice could be made in regards to their actions. Before they do anything, God has already made his divine choice.

Just as it is written, Jacob I love, but Esau I hated. What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? I ask you, if anything wells up within you that says, oh, this is unjust, then realize you're taking the part of the objector to the apostle.

What does that mean? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be, Paul says. For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

So then, it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. The scripture says to Pharaoh, for this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.

So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires. Salvation is of the Lord. You will say to me then, why does he still find fault for who resists his will? On the contrary, who are you, oh man, who answers back to God?

The thing molded will not say to the molder, why did you make me like this, will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And he did so to make known the riches of his glory upon the vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he also called, remember Romans 8, who are those who are called?

Those who are predestined, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. Now, I only have about two and a half minutes left, and I don't think that would be a sufficient amount of time to look at Ephesians chapter 1, 1 Timothy chapter 1, or any of the many, many other places where the scriptures plainly teach the truth of divine election of a specific people.

So let me simply summarize on the basis of what we've seen so far in the scriptures. God is the one who saves. God as the sovereign king does not owe salvation to anyone. The wonder of divine election is not that God chooses to save some.

The wonder is that he chooses to save any. We know our own unworthiness. We know our own hearts. And we know that it was God who sought us. We were not seeking God. Romans 3, 11 says there is no God seeker.

We were dead in our transgression. It makes no more sense to say that Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb on the basis of something Lazarus was doing in the tomb than it is to say that we ourselves did something that drew God's electing grace to us.

Divine election is a fact of revelation. It is the only way to understand John chapter 6. The Lord Jesus felt that it was proper to teach this doctrine while standing in the synagogue in Capernaum to explain why it was that he had all these surface followers who came after him and they wanted to see more from him.

They wanted to receive more miracles and get more food, but they did not have true discipleship.

Why?

Why didn't they believe? Jesus' explanation was they did not believe because they were not given by the Father to the Son and drawn by the Father to the Son. That was his explanation of surface followers and why there are people who only follow for a little while and then don't continue.

It's a divine truth. It's a scriptural truth for which the Christian heart must rejoice.

Why?

Because it's found right here in the pages of Scripture. Thank you very much.

Paul Barber on Foreknowledge, Free Will, and the Elect as a Group

Now we're going to hear a 25-minute opening statement opposing the Calvinistic interpretation of predestination by Paul Barber.

You know, it's interesting when you talk about foreknowledge because foreknowledge is oftentimes connected with predestination, but realize that foreknowledge does not necessarily mean predetermination, fixity.

For instance, you can take Amos 3 .2, Romans 11 .2 that clearly states that God foreknew Israel, and if you're going to make that predetermination that that means God has clearly determined that they will be his people, why do you find so many of that class of people.

Lost?

Unless somehow after death you're going to give them a second chance, which Hebrews 9 .27 makes it very clear that there is a point that then the man wants to die and then the.

Judgment.

Now God foreknew Israel, but that doesn't mean that all of Israel was necessarily saved. He only saved a remnant, and we'll discuss that passage a little more later. The truth of the matter is God does foreknow all things, but that's not the real issue.

Now when you think about God foreknowing all things, realize that God is above and beyond time. When He said, I am, He was meaning I am the eternal one. Jesus used that in John chapter 8. Before Abraham was, I am.

There was no was, no will be, simply now I am in all time at once. In that position above and beyond time, we have to ask ourselves the question, we know that God can know everything.

That's very clear.

The question is, does God decree everything? Now, if you have God decreeing everything, then you have God be the author of some incredible wickedness. If you have God decree everything, you have God creating Satan to be exactly who he is.

If you have God decreeing everything, you have God creating and decreeing sin. And James 1, 13 through 15 tells us that's an impossibility. So what's the other option? The other option is that God does have decrees, but that doesn't mean that He fixes every single variable.

He doesn't need to. Do you understand that? With all foreknowledge, God is above and beyond time. He can see everything at once. He can cognitively recognize every single contingency possible. Having cognitively realized every single contingency possible, it is very easy for Him to decree and to cause to come into being certain events without removing the freedom of other beings making choices.

Because He knows the choices they will make. You say, well, how is that possible? It doesn't matter that you know how it's possible or not, just accept that God has that foreknowledge. God knows the choices that you will make, but that doesn't mean that God decrees the choices you will make.

If I decide to eat a steak and then I decide that it's unhealthy for me to eat a steak, God knew which choice I would make. He understood the contingencies and He understood the outcomes, but that doesn't mean that He decreed them.

A good example of this is the cross. We're told in Acts chapter 2 that when Peter said that the Romans and the Jews crucified Jesus that it was by the predetermined plan of God. Did God cause the Romans to do what they do?

Did He cause the Jews to do what they did? No, He simply foreknew what choices they would make and it was very easy for Him to manipulate the situation to bring into being the crucifixion of His son so that sins would be forgiven.

But that doesn't mean He's the author of evil and wickedness. Others had free choice. Judas is the same illustration. In John 6 verse 70, Jesus made it very clear that He chose Judas knowing that he was a devil.

That's why Jesus chose Judas. But Jesus didn't cause Judas to be that way. He didn't determine that Judas would be that way. He simply, through the Old Testament prophecies, predicted that the close friend would betray and then knowing the character of Judas and knowing the choices that Judas would make, He used the choices of Judas to bring into being the fulfillment of prophecy.

But Judas still had free will and made those choices. When we look at predestination, we basically have to ask ourselves the question, not does God know everything, but has God decreed everything? That's the real question.

And especially, has God decreed certain men unto salvation and certain men unto damnation? That implies that man has no choice, which makes the Bible an incredible fallacy. Because from the beginning pages to the end pages, God makes it very clear to man that you have a choice.

Make sure you make the right one. You can go to almost every single page in the Bible and man is called to make a choice. In Genesis 4, God told Cain, if you do well, if you do well, notice that, the contingency, will your countenance not be lifted up?

And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door and its desire is for you, but you must master it. What a farce if Cain didn't have that opportunity. What a cruelty for God to say, Cain sins at the door.

Cain, you must master it knowing that he had no choice and being unwilling to help him.

To have a choice.

There's a better option and a more scriptural option. You want to recognize the predestination refers to a select group, not select individuals. Yeah, I know there are certain individuals that are predestined to play certain roles.

Jeremiah 1 .5, you notice that God predestined him to be a prophet. That doesn't mean that God caused him to be saved. The Apostle Paul in Galatians 1 .15 and 16, God predestined for him to preach the gospel.

But that doesn't mean that God necessarily forced him. Even if he did, notice something in the case of Paul. Notice that Paul was a special example in that same passage in Galatians 1 .15 and 16. He said, I took no counsel from flesh and blood.

So if we are the same as Paul and we are predestined like Paul was, then let us take no counsel of flesh and blood. You see, the predestination wasn't about personal salvation. It was about the apostleship.

And Romans 1 .1 will tell you that, that he was set apart for the apostleship, the exact same words. And also notice in the case of Paul that God didn't work a miracle in his heart. God gave him the simple testimony of a resurrection appearance.

That's what saved Paul. And I'm not saying he didn't have a special opportunity, but God knew that he had an honest heart. That's why the Pharisees in their hardness saw so many wonders saying and still rejected Christ.

But Paul, Saul said he did everything in clear conscience. And 1 Timothy 1 .13 tells us that that is why he was shown mercy. He says it in his own words. So what is predestination? Well, God does predestinate some individuals to a particular role like Pharaoh, to the role of being the Pharaoh that would resist Moses.

But notice that Pharaoh hardened his own heart six times before God ever did. God predestined Jacob to the role of receiving the birthright. But that doesn't mean that Esau was necessarily lost. It wasn't about personal salvation.

What is predestination about then? 1 Peter 5 .13, Peter says, She who is in Babylon chosen together with you sends you greetings and so does my son Mark. She who is in Babylon chosen.

That's the church.

In fact, if you go to 2 John 1 and 2 John 13, the same thing applies.

It's the church.

I want to take you back to that Romans 8 passage. Romans 8 .29 and 30. Notice that there is never, ever, ever one single indication in that passage that this is about anything other than God deciding that there would be a group.