Warren/Piper, Peter Lumpkins, Corey the Anti-Christian Apologist, and More

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic here is

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James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon back at our

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Thursday afternoon time slot Which now for those of you in the East Coast do the fact that you've fiddled with your clocks is now sort of an evening time slot

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But that's okay here in sunny Phoenix, Arizona, it is still very sunny and actually nice and warm today getting up into the 80s and That means it's not gonna be long before it's gonna be 105 and then 110 a lot of fun stuff

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But that's the way that it works. I Sort of teased everybody on the last program that never got around to discussing it

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So I thought I would not tease any longer and get right to Any brief comments

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I'm going to make in regards to the John Piper Rick Warren controversy. Yes, indeed

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I haven't said a word You've seen nothing on the blog the night that Dr.

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Piper was explaining his Selection of Rick Warren to be at the Desiring God conference. You did not see me

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Twittering Away, some people absolutely lost their minds that night they felt like the world had come to a complete end and you know the gospel had been lost everything else and it's like Calm down folks, you know as Doug Wilson put it so we don't need to be breathing into paper bags about this

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You don't need to need to stay calm First of all these big conferences some people live and die by them.

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You've never seen me at one Not only do I not get invited to them, but I don't go to them either not because I have anything against them

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I just have time for them and so It's sort of like well someone speaks one of those.

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That's just oh, it's just so huge and I like, you know It's conference for crying out loud we're not talking

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About anything more than than that now having said all that was I'm amongst the many who were surprised.

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Well, of course I I Personally, however Have not made it a part of my ministry to be concerning myself very much about Rick Warren.

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I mean I I can't avoid seeing the guy I was just looking on on my blog and Back in July July 10th of last year.

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I did specifically criticize Rick Warren but all I did was I posted a

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YouTube video of His comments at ISNA that is the

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Islamic Society of North America, he was invited to speak at ISNA last last summer and All I did they posted the video and I had the title this is not what

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I would have said had I spoken at ISNA That's all I said Because I think it was just a given That if I had had the opportunity of addressing an entire room full of Muslims in that context

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I would have you know said something about the gospel maybe Presented something along those lines

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So, you know, I've I've made brief comments about you know not saying prayers at the

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Coronation of Ahab and things like that, but I just really haven't spent the time that would be necessary to be able to document

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What I'm talking about. So thankfully Thankfully someone else did all that for me

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That is I have a clip to play for you here and I agree with this guy

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Let's listen to what he has to say about this particular issue But let me just say because you really haven't asked me what

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I thought about this yet And so let me let me just give you my opinion. Sure. I think I think it's a bad decision that John Piper made

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I love John Piper people often ask me who I listen to besides John MacArthur Piper is the first Preacher I want to hear a first living preacher.

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I want to hear on it On any text after John MacArthur, I love him and I and I love what he's written

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I I've never heard him preach anything that I shy away from but he does sometimes make these decisions that That I can't explain and I don't want to even have to try to defend so I wouldn't defend this

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I think it's the wrong thing I think it's the wrong decision and I think what you're hearing is a lot of confusion that's caused by what's really a bad decision on John Piper's part and I trust him to To You know to try to keep things as straight as possible in the conference itself

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But I do think it's demonstrable that over the long haul and and over time people will regard this as Piper's endorsement of Rick Warren and and the idea is it you know, he certainly doesn't agree with nobody thinks he agrees with everything

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Rick Warren does But I think the message it's sending is that Warren's approach to ministry really isn't that bad.

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It isn't that dangerous and I think frankly that that nullifies the whole message of Together for the gospel and some of these other movements where we've said look, you know

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But the thing that the church today the evangelical movement today needs to get back to is the gospel.

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We need to proclaim it Fully and unapologetically and in its purity and without watering it down without playing games with it without trying to change the message to get rid of the stumbling block that's inherent in the gospel and Rick Warren would be the poster boy for the opposite approach so yeah,

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I do think it confuses things badly and and I'm sorry Piper's doing it, but But having said that I just watched a video by Doug Wilson where he says

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He doesn't think we all need to start breathing into paper bags over it and I agree with that as well I think what we need to do is be

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Be clear and consistent in what we say about the gospel I still think it's important to be respectful and and not insulting to to John Piper for those who agree who disagree with the decision he's making and So I see that falling apart on all sides.

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And so I'm troubled by both sides in this controversy, frankly Mm -hmm.

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So that of course was Phil Johnson the director of grace to you John MacArthur's media ministry

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Phil and I have spoken in many conferences together smaller conferences together and Obviously, he knows

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John Piper a lot better than I do and those were his comments on Chris Arnzen's iron sharpens iron

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Program from just a few days ago, and he was pretty straightforward there He feels that as he had said earlier in the program

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That it's not that Rick Warren teaches specific items of heresy

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The problem with Rick Warren is what he doesn't say. It's not what he does say. It's what he doesn't say it is an imbalanced presentation of the gospel

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One that is not challenging. It is not complete It does not a call for the kind of radical transformation of life and worldview

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That would be so offensive in our culture today and as a result the the entire methodology of ministry that flows from it is

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Is fundamentally flawed he did say something I had never heard this and I haven't taken the time to check this out

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But but he said that he had seen some evidence that that Saddleback remains the largest church 85 ,000 members.

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I don't know how that even works You know, I mean I was in a church that had 20 ,000 members one time and the the what in every situation what happens is small churches develop within the larger church because there is no way that one man or one group of men can pastor 85 ,000 people and So the pastor becomes the guy you listen to talking on Sunday morning, but you never have any interaction with him

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You might run into him in the hallway once but there can be nothing nothing personal there and So little churches develop and of course in the big church

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I was in they knew what that was that they recognized as a danger and so every year

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You'd rip them apart those those small churches that had developed in the Bible study classes

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Where you had a master teacher and that that guy basically became the pastor to the people They would transfer everybody break them all up break up all the friendships all that because they were concerned about that happening and Which made most people very very upset and very unhappy Anyway, 85 ,000 be added.

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I can't imagine But be that as it may the whole concept of ministry Where you have in essence gospel light now, that's

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LITE not LICHT For those of you who are reading some the old Puritans or something Now I I did listen to John Piper's explanation of why he invited me he wants to know what makes him tick

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Well that you could do that over dinner I don't think you need to expose everybody comes to your big major conference to somebody to find out what makes them tick

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But he said he was sitting on a on a on a platform with him and they were talking and That he was 17 volumes into reading

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Jonathan Edwards all the Yale Volumes of Jonathan Edwards. Well, if that's the case, that's pretty impressive

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But of course the big question that everyone is raised because of that is yeah But if you're reading

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Jonathan Edwards, why is there so little evidence of Jonathan Edwards preaching of the gospel in your ministry?

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That's the point I mean, it's one thing to read these guys, but then to be to have that over there in your theological realm

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But then when it comes to actual ministry There's this massive gulf of fixed between the two so so that what's over there can't come over here and vice -versa

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Sounds familiar Luke 16 That's what causes everybody to sit back and go. What is why why would you why would you do this?

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And Phil's concern is as he expressed it There is that no matter what people are gonna look at this and go.

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Hey if Rick Warren can be invited to Desiring God then that must mean that the the mechanisms that he uses in ministry just aren't that seriously bad and That from from Phil's perspective that's a complete undermining of Together for the

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Gospel which constantly is emphasizing the necessity of preaching the entirety of the gospel all the gospel and living in light of it and so there's there is the concerns that have been

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Been expressed and You know, I but again John Piper gets to decide who he invites to a conference and you know people are all up in arms and I I just You know,

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I've heard lots and lots of stories about about stuff that John Piper has done in the past he he he he takes on the mantle of a prophet and He's not afraid to tell you what he thinks

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Most most people are aware of the fact that he's very straightforward. It comes to for example, you know

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Criticizing his hosts who have him in to speak if they put him in too nice of a hotel, for example that's just John Piper, that's what you get and He's gonna mix things up and he's gonna he's gonna challenge you

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But in this case Was there really any need for this type of you know to wake people up?

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Bring Rick Warren and is there some hope I've read a bunch of people going Well, I hope what this means is it maybe

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Rick Warren has seen the light and he's gonna start moving toward a more biblical and sound and complete pattern of ministry

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Well, I would like to think that Be wonderful if that big huge church would all of a sudden become sound and what it was doing

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But let me tell you something what happens to big huge churches when all of a sudden the leadership tries to become sound what they're doing

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They no longer remain big huge churches all of a sudden all the people that go there because the

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Entertainment and because it's of the ease of access and all the programs and everything else the church actually starts focusing on being the church rather than your your local one -stop shop for lattes and salving of the conscience well, there's always another church down the road, especially in Southern, California and And so who knows

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I would love to think that as well, but that's not even what John Piper said So lots of issues that have been raised and I just would like to very strongly recommend to folks

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Do not do not do not do not Base your faith and your commitment to the gospel and anything else upon any individual man

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We like to think amongst the reform folks that we don't have that That kind of superstar mentality that they have in other realms of evangelicalism.

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Yes, we do There's no question we do there are there there are the big superstars and people will spend money and flock to the big conferences to hear the big superstars and When they fall

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Or when you discover that they have feet of clay like everybody else so they put their pants on one one leg at a time all of a sudden

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Must not really be anything to any of this, you know And and the grumbling begins and so on and so forth do not place your trust in the arm of the flesh all of us who anybody who has the opportunity to Speak to large audiences and I've spoken to large audiences not that kind of large audience very often

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I think they're scared of having people like me speak in those contexts. We're not quite sure what he's gonna say but Anybody who has that opportunity

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Has an accountability before God they're gonna be judged by God before their Lord. They stand or fall but look This idea of Superstars and people that are somehow more important than anybody else.

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It's just it's just not a biblical concept at all and It leads to all sorts of problems.

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So avoid it at at all at all costs. So there's just a few comments

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Thanks to Phil Johnson for taking the time to be on iron sharpens iron It's seven seven seven five three three, three, four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one or Skype a dividing dotline

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Is the number I didn't even bring up a tweet deck here, but I'll do that right now. So that's a Dr.

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Oakley 1689 if you are on Twitter, I did also want to address another issue

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I I've got admit that's what I ran into yesterday on The web was one of the most amazing

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Examples of cheap -shot artistry I have ever encountered in my ministerial years

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It is one thing for us to constantly be dealing with An attack from a

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Mormon or Jehovah's Witness or an atheist, you know I mentioned that one of the reasons

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I shut down comments on my videos is because I I put up one video That criticized

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Richard Dawkins Richard Dawkins is worshiped By atheists all over the world.

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He is he's their Messiah It's scary to see atheists more fervent in their worship of Richard Dawkins than many

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Christians are of Jesus and I had one video up and I I don't like profane language.

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I don't like foul language. I Have scripts set up in our chat channel you try even off -color stuff and you can get you find yourself all of a sudden sitting outside the chat channels that I've been inside the chat channel and and So I didn't like having to delete all these things.

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So I just turned the comments off on that one Well, I started going over to all my other videos and leaving their nasty vile stuff the atheist would and so I just turned comments off on everything and So We're accustomed to that we're accustomed to expecting we've we've had a had a

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Muslim that has come in recently To chat channel. We tried to deal with him.

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There is just no He's not listening to a word. We're saying he's not dealing with any of the documentation provided eventually becomes a distraction.

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So remove it well, he's been sneaking in and and You know avoiding the bands and PMing people, okay,

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I understand that unregenerate people act like unregenerate people Pagans live up to their job title.

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There's no question about that. Okay, no, no, no worries But when it comes to people who profess to be

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Christians, that's that's where I just Sit here at times and shake my head for example, why have

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I even Wasted the time and the opinion opinion of some people Discussing the issue of Eric and Cantor at Liberty University Well, it's simple

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Eric and Cantor claims to be a Christian a Christian leader a president of a theological seminary

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And as such we need to have certain standards we need to call for certain standards on the parts of those who stand in those positions and Especially who train young people in regards to ministry and there needs to be some honesty if you're gonna claim

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All these things I've done this I've done this I debated this person. I did that person Well, you might want to actually be true and the more we dig into Eric and Cantor story the less and less we find that is true and So that's a problem.

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That's an issue and we need to be consistent about these things Well one of Eric and Cantor's and by the way,

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I just mentioned it those of you that saw I Mentioned once again that good old

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Lou Rugg, Lou Ruggiero I don't think his books out yet He kept saying it was gonna be out last year and then who knows when it's gonna come out it

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I don't know what the delay is But Lou Rugg is is letting everybody know that his books gonna destroy

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Calvinism. It's just gonna wipe us off It's Any you know, the scary thing is

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I think Lou really does believe that that's that's what's frightening about it Is these folks believe their own press?

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but You know who wrote the the forward? for lose book

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Eric and Cantor I Just find that so rich That that Eric and Cantor be the one who writes the forward for for Lou Ruggs book

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I think that's just May 24th. Is that was supposed to be coming out Bartimaeus says it's May 24th

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I saw it was supposed to be December of last year and everything else Fellow in Australia said his book is late because his

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Xerox is broken that's possibility too. But anyway Shouldn't I shouldn't read stuff in the channel live.

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That's that's that's a little dangerous. But anyhow One of Eric and Cantor's defenders is a fellow by the name of Peter Lumpkins a

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Southern Baptist and Some of you have seen some of the amazing things that Peter Lumpkins has said in the past but what he posted yesterday

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Absolutely left me Speechless it left me speechless because if You're going to try to completely misrepresent somebody lie about someone

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Don't do it with videos that are actually still posted The I had posted a 20 minute long video

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Quite some time ago on August 29th 2008 in fact Responding to Jerry Vines and his sermon on John 316 and I had addressed the issue of the the difficult subject of the love of God and I sort of wonder if Peter Lumpkins is going to post anything about DA Carson who wrote a book on that title and said made the very same things

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I did in my video but I probably wouldn't do that, but I Put this video up 20 minutes long and right at the beginning

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I said that this is a difficult subject to address. It's a dangerous subject to address as well because of people's traditions and So I run the risk of being misunderstood.

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I run the risk of a false accusation, etc, etc Well, if you go on the blog and I'm gonna play it here

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Peter Lumpkins takes the first 90 seconds and He edits it not not the voice.

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You can still hear exactly what I said But he puts something on the screen and so I'm gonna play it I'm gonna tell you what's on the screen when it when it pops up.

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Here's here's here's the section from from the video that he posted Recently, dr.

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Jerry Vines spoke at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and he spoke on the subject of John 316 now it is interesting that there is going to be a conference on John 316

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Coming up in a few months. I'm not sure if there was a direct connection between the topic and that upcoming conference, but he spoke about the love of God and There was much to agree with in regards to what dr.

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Vines said About the love of God and John chapter 3 verse 16

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But I would like to take issue with and hopefully expand upon Some of the key issues that separate

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Reformed believers and their understanding of the love of God and now let us stop right here

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Now on the screen you we have preaching on the love of God is Dot dot dot in those ways, but preaching on the love of God is now.

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What am I saying? I Want to expand upon I've agreed with much of what he said

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But I want to talk about what Reformed believers believe on these issues

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Okay, but now we have Preaching on the love of God is dot dot dot on the presentation that dr.

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Vines made This is a dangerous subject to address Only in the sense now as soon as I said, this is a dangerous subject to address it changes to Big Red a dangerous subject to preach and So he puts up this whole blog about how

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I say Since he of course continues to libel and slander me and call me a hyper

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Calvinist, which is the line He knows it's a lie, but he just keeps going on with it. Anyways That I say that it is dangerous to preach the love of God and He does let it go on for a few more seconds here that there is a tremendous amount of emotion involved

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And if we say it properly a lot of tradition involved with traditional understandings of the love of God Very frequently then now up on the screen.

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It says suggesting it dangerous to preach on the love of God must rank among the most absurd assertions one may encounter from internet

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Calvinists and Of course as any rational person knows I never said anything even like that I was talking about the video

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I was making and the danger inherent in discussing this particular subject because of people's traditions

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Then he fades it out at that point thankfully the video is still on YouTube He didn't link to it

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So anybody could watch it of course because if they did they would know the rest of what I said only reformed believers are accused of being unloving and Unkind and in some way denying the the true love of God What I'd like to try to communicate in making some comments on John 316 is that the true backdrop

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That makes the love of God absolutely amazing to us is

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Not man's traditions or man's emotions or what? feels

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Very strong to mankind but instead what's makes the love of God so glorious that throughout eternity

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We will praise him for it is the backdrop of his sovereign majestic Kingly holiness, so I go on from there remember.

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This is a 19 minute and 24 second video so I go on from there to say the love of God the reason that the love of God is so amazing and Hence we can preach it is

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Because if you have a biblical understanding the love of God Over against the background of his holiness you see it for what it really is that was the whole point

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No rational person no honest person Could even begin to suggest

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That I was saying that we should not preach the love of God or that it's Dangerous to preach the love of God all

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I was saying is we need to preach the love of God as the Bible presents it So what does Peter Lumpkins do?

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I don't know if he was expecting that people wouldn't look I guess he was expecting that I Don't know why he would put different words on the screen than what

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I was actually saying He is admitted. He did but he says he got the gist of it, right? I Think this is the cheapest shot.

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I've ever seen I it is absolutely amazing to me that anyone would attempt this When the videos are right there

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Just I mean talk about the setup talk about the easiest refutation that has ever been offered it is right there just Unbelievable, I don't know anybody who knows

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Peter Lumpkins, but if you do and by the way Malcolm Yarnell had then Repeated Lumpkins false assertions, and I'm hoping that Malcolm Yarnell has now realized that he's been duped by by Peter Lumpkins and It's great to be able to offer evidence though, isn't it it's

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It's sort of like around here. We we keep track of everything we keep we keep emails and we keep chat room logs and Who was it what was that situation just recently

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Someone's accusing me of Having said something. Oh, it was

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Tony Byrne. It was Tony Byrne remember and It was Lumpkins that repeated it.

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That's right You would think he would have you was he would have think he would have gotten the clue the first time We knocked one out of the park with him as the as the subject of it but again,

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I If someone could show me the slightest concern on his part for truthfulness and honesty

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I'd like to see it, but I haven't I haven't seen it I've seen lots of evidence that he just simply doesn't care.

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So there you go All right, so let's get to our Let's go ahead and take our break real quick.

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And then we'll be back with Corey and Mike right after this incorporating the most recent research and solid biblical truth

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Or more than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together They are standing shoulder -to -shoulder against social evils

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And welcome back to the dividing line, let's go to our phone callers and let's talk with Corey hello,

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Corey. How are you? Yes, I can

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He's one of your followers He put me up to this that he wants me to call in to face you because he gets all his

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Knowledge, I guess you and some other people at some other website

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When you speak about the book of John and when John says that God is love

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Then when you look in the book of Corinthians, and it says that love has no memory of wrongdoing

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So does that mean that we can say it all we want because God forgives everybody and everybody's going to heaven well

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First of all, that is an amazing use of Scripture to tie things together. They're completely different contexts first of all secondly

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God does not forgive everyone forgiveness is found only in and through Jesus Christ and faith in his name and Thirdly clearly not everyone's going to heaven because the

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Bible says that there are those who abide in the wrath of God. So I Say that because the

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Bible says that do you believe the Bible? The Bible Is that That's exactly that's not

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Okay Cory there's something called exegesis. It is where you actually handle the

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Word of God Properly in a way that allows you to understand what its original authors intended it to say and that means

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And that involves looking at the original languages and the original context and honoring the text

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So that you can actually say this is what they meant. Not. This is just what

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I want them to say and your presentation Demonstrated that you don't engage in meaningful exegesis of even a historical text whether you believe it's the

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Word of God or not I don't know that you do But you you can't just simply take a text and throw a few things together and say aha

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I mean I could take any any email you've written Pull a sentence from here a sentence from there and turn you into Anything I want to that's that's just absurd.

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That's that's not how people reason. That's not how you do any type of honest Discussion of anything is it?

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Okay. So what are all -knowing God? stood up there and Make the book so confusing that we had to give people like you that got to go and learn to read

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Aramaic and Hebrews And all this and that so that they can read the book to other people

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The book the book the book isn't confusing sir It is only those people who have a reason to turn it into something that is confusing as you seem to do

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That are confused that are confusing about I've known

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I've known a lot of people. I've known I've known a lot of people who have fully understood the message of God's Word Because they honored it and actually wanted to know what it was saying and allowed the authors to speak of themselves

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Who never learned a word of Greek? or Hebrew, but it is extremely helpful in the proclamation the word because obviously

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English didn't exist when the Bible was written. We are living in a world where the language we use came into existence after that document was written and it is a simple matter of Honesty and factuality and logic and rationality

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That if you're going to do in -depth study of an ancient text in any university You would need to learn about its context its background and things like that Which is why

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God also gave us a church where people are able to do that And then we regularly instruct others that have not had the opportunities.

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We've had In those very things I do that every Sunday morning. In fact Okay, you understand there's no logic in a

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Bible, where is there any logic? Well, that's

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That's such a basic statement that that that is so broad that how in the world could

36:54

I even begin to respond to it? There's there's I find the biblical presentation of the Creator and his purposes in creation and his purposes in Jesus Christ to be eminently logical to be the very definition of Logic and in fact,

37:09

I would challenge you that without the Christian God You can't even tell me what logic is to begin with without contradicting yourself at some point

37:15

But that's not even what you're talking about. You you're you're you're making some kind of other wild accusation here

37:23

No, I'm not. Okay. So have you studied the medic before the original religion?

37:30

the what Semitic Science I have no idea what you're talking about Okay It's the original religion from Africa.

37:44

Well, you can the original religion from Africa Yes, well, you can look on the walls of days and see the stories that were taken from their

37:55

Story and made into the story of Jesus. Oh Really you mean the

38:02

Egyptians or something like that? Which which of the many alleged sources of the life of story of Jesus?

38:08

Are you talking about? Well, serious, maybe? Cory Cory, first of all,

38:16

I've looked at every possible one that I've been able to find alleged source and find these to be

38:22

So grossly bogus. It's almost laughable, but I'm not gonna laugh But I just want to point out the illogic and what you just said

38:31

How can there be all these different sources for the same story given how different the religions were?

38:38

Are you seriously suggesting that the Apostles sitting there in first century

38:44

Judea? took religions from Africa and Egypt and Babylon and Greece and Italy and and maybe the

38:52

Hindus and and they just put them all in a big old pot and stirred it up and said here The Jews will believe this and create the story of Jesus.

39:00

Is that what you're really suggesting? It's forced upon people. I mean it's forced upon people

39:06

Yeah, just like when you watch Fox News and you see all these idiots out here in a tea party And you see how

39:12

Glenn Beck and all of them sit up there and say something and then the rest of the people will run with them

39:18

Believe it. Okay Okay Okay Cory Cory Cory Cory, whoa.

39:24

Whoa. Whoa, we've got to have some rationality here on the program You just went off Glenn Beck and tea partiers without even addressing my question.

39:33

How on earth could someone? How on earth can you say that anyone was forced to believe in Christianity?

39:45

when Christianity was a persecuted religion until 313 AD And people died to believe in it

39:56

What do you mean it's not true it's a historical fact the Edict of Toleration 313

40:02

Emperor Constantine made a religio licita You're not aware of these things

40:07

What about the tea set up there and made the Bible at?

40:13

And Cory Cory, yo,

40:18

Cory Cory hello, Cory Hello, Cory, Cory Constantine had nothing to do with the books of the

40:28

Bible the Council of Nicaea Had nothing to do with the books the

40:33

Bible you cannot provide me one scintilla of Historical evidence that the

40:40

Council of Nicaea had anything to do with the canon of Scripture whatsoever

40:45

It's a myth. It is Name me a single church historian who's published anything

41:00

Who says that the Council of Nicaea had anything to do with the canon of Scripture name me one?

41:09

That's because sir you are wrong, okay, you are simply document ably historically wrong

41:16

Constantine did not have anything to do with the canon the Council of Nicaea had nothing to do with the canon

41:22

And I wrote a paper on that subject which is available if you'd like to read it called What really happened at the

41:28

Council of Nicaea? I would suggest you take a look at it I watched her video about it, and it just seems like you you just always

41:37

Debate you say anybody with a rational mind, but you try to make everybody well Cory if you if you would give us some rational

41:45

Arguments, maybe we could respond to your rational arguments, but so far Nothing Okay for Excuse me hello

42:03

Cory omnipresent Yeah, you you really think that someone during Jesus ministry said he was omnipresent Did he take on flesh

42:20

Okay the father I've Defended the doctrine of the

42:29

Trinity against Muslims Jehovah's Witnesses and many many others sir, okay? Jesus is part of the father.

42:37

He's not part of the father sir. He's not part of the father The father the father the son and the spirit together

42:46

Share in fullness the one being that is God. He is not quote part of the father end quote

42:57

What I Just said that the three persons share the one being that is

43:17

God yes Jesus gave his life

43:31

Voluntarily as he himself said no one takes my life from me. I give it of my own accord

43:40

Yes, it does Majority of folks listening today, not only does it make sense to them

43:47

But what they're also demonstrating seeing is that you're very very confused and have gotten hold of a lot of really bad information

44:01

And I know when I die I'm going to heaven I've got nothing to lose That's like playing the lottery and having to win a number.

44:08

What's this does that make? I don't get that if you'll that's fatal masochistic. It has absolutely nothing to do sir with going to heaven

44:16

It has to do with giving your life a ransom for many so that okay.

44:21

Thank you very much Cory I think we invested more than sufficient time in demonstrating that that that Cory Is not quite really being honest with Well, in fact that wasn't what you had put on the screen at all as to what you want to talk about It was like often into the non -ln very very quickly, but Yes, but let me make it clear

44:48

He's a realist is that what he said it was a realist you I asked him Are you is this from are you are you one this are you he's

44:55

I'm a realist a realist I mean He doesn't like Glenn Beck and he doesn't like the tea party.

45:01

We did that and he says I'm a realist and I said so He says I believe in a guy a god.

45:09

Okay. All right, we've we've we've done it. Let's talk with Mike in Wisconsin Hi, Mike.

45:14

Hey, dr. White. How you doing? Recovering from last call I just wanted to thank you and Encourage you just you have been

45:29

God has used you mightily in Helping me grow as a

45:36

Christian Theologically and I just wanted to call and just thank you very much

45:42

I mean, you don't know how much you've helped. I mean over the years Soon. Well, first of all

45:48

Mike Mike you're making me feel very old here all this I Soon after I became a

46:00

Christian somewhere around was like 16 somewhere on there soon after I came to the

46:05

Calvinistic, um, you know doctrines of grace Through Potter's freedom and Read that many times actually.

46:15

Um, I could go on and on. I basically I just wanted to thank you and and Just from the lesser to the greater

46:22

Well, Mike that's obvious I find that extremely encouraging and we were a small ministry and when we hear from folks it is it is always

46:34

Reason to continue to press on it's also reason to continue to take some lumps that you take when you address some of the issues that you do because Hopefully one of the things that you have seen

46:46

Over the years as you have listened to the dividing line or follow the debates is

46:51

I am I absolutely am committed to the necessity of being consistent in my handling of Scripture and consistent in what

47:01

I speak on and I I just I really hope that that's something we communicate clearly especially to young men and women who are making decisions about the rest of your lives

47:13

Having that foundation and being committed to truth is just Absolutely vital and I hope that comes across Absolutely.

47:21

That's one of the things that I've noticed. I mean and you said that you know that you you try to be consistent and Definitely, it definitely comes through in your actions

47:30

And then you're debating and so forth. I wanted to say something to about Tom. I just I noticed a

47:38

Evangelistic element and you're debating that I really appreciate that. It's not just this academic

47:45

You know arguing all this, you know abstract stuff and and all this historical stuff that that is there and it's very scholarly

47:52

But just the evangelistic element like for example in one of the debates you did with a

47:58

Muslim He said you're borrowing his air Okay, and that is you know, just the power of a proclamation of the truth because really there is no debate

48:07

You know when it comes down to it I mean, you know, I mean and and just the proclamation of the gospel the gospel is the power of God and the salvation

48:14

You know, it's just just proclaiming his truth. Well, just don't just don't just don't let any of my critics who?

48:21

Are constantly saying that I I don't preach the gospel. Don't let them know about that So that we can keep doing that but obviously that is something that I do seek to do

48:31

Especially when I have those in the audience that hold the position I'm debating is to try to bring the truth of God to bear upon them not not not in the way that I'm Cheapening the debate by saying okay.

48:46

I've got you here. So now I'm just gonna preach at you No, I want to to be honest about doing the debate in the subject

48:53

But if there is a way to make a presentation to to bring that truth home

48:58

So they're not just walking out of the place with oh, well, that was interesting dialogue But no, you have to do something with what you've heard this evening

49:06

Yeah, that's that's something that I've attempted to do and I'm glad at least someone has noticed So Absolutely, just you know,

49:16

God is using you mightily and you know in people's lives that you don't even know about well I appreciate that just be encouraging that Thank You Mike Keep walking firm in the

49:26

Lord, and I appreciate the encouragement. Thank you, sir You're all right. God bless. Bye -bye 877 -753 -334 -1

49:35

Let's talk with it is very encouraging. Is that how I hope you get encouraged by that to mr

49:40

Pierce because they couldn't be listening to me if you weren't sitting there with that silly grin on your face Pushing the right buttons and sometimes the wrong buttons do and we have we hit you

49:51

We have fun Hopefully no one You know, you know It's amazing is is

49:56

I honestly think there's so many people out there who? believe the lie that I take myself so super seriously and I guess they must not listen to this program realize how many times we we skewer ourselves and and everything else

50:09

It's just they don't know It's amazing how many people are willing to believe lies about me who do not know me personally who call themselves

50:15

Christians I've never understood that I try to at least hold off judging someone until I have some grounds upon which to do it

50:22

And I guess I'm weird in that or something. Let's talk with Steve in Virginia. Hi, Steve I'm learning that ever since we got this new comrec stack.

50:32

I have to double -click to get people on the air That's what I'm learning So I can honestly say

50:37

I'm impressed by the patience you are demonstrate not only in your debate but in the incredibly unique people that God puts on the

50:46

The incredibly unique people and I like that that was a very nice way of putting it

50:55

Six -point Calvinist Hardcore Trinitarian Looked at psalm 110 for the longest time didn't really understand it.

51:03

Then the last couple weeks I started delving back into it. I listened to your debate on The radio show and Britain there.

51:13

Uh -huh any buzzer? Yes my question and it might be a little lengthy But just kind of hear me out and then please expound on if I'm misunderstanding something.

51:22

Okay, the way I Understand it is basically based off Jesus question and response to the

51:30

Pharisees and Matthew 22 is that their silence is affirming the deity of Christ because in Christ question we

51:39

What's the effect of I don't know if my scripture in front of me if he's his son? How can he be his

51:45

Lord if Messiah was mentor implied? It would seem that the Pharisees will have said always

51:50

David's Lord because he's Messiah and Messiah will be superior to David I get the impression that Christ question is basically affirming his deity and his response and their silence and non -response is affirming

52:04

His deity my correct incorrect, or I'll let you run with it from there. Well a couple things

52:11

For the benefit of the audience real quick and if if Stevens Question on line one is is relevant enough.

52:20

We can go a little long if we need to I want I don't want to leave Steve. We have a Steven and a Steve. I don't want to leave Steve hang here.

52:26

So Let me let folks know what the what the background is here So so they're not lost if they did not hear the unbelievable radio program we did with Anthony buzzard

52:35

Anthony buzzard argues and has argued a number of times and I've played his comments here on the program

52:41

That when it says the Lord says to my Lord, that's Yahweh says to To Adonai now the

52:48

Hebrew text says Adonai which is the way it's been Val pointed by the later

52:53

Masoretic scribes and His argument is Adonai is always merely a human being

53:00

Now as I pointed out that Val pointing comes at a later point in time At least 700 years after the time of Christ when that Val pointing is inserted and obviously 700 years after Christ the

53:11

Jews have been rejecting the Messiah ship of Christ for a long long time and What I didn't get to in the debate because I was really trying to get him to explain his position rather fully is that we do have instances in the

53:26

Psalms where Adonai My where were that very phrase my

53:32

Lord is Translated by the exact same Greek words as we have in the Greek Septuagint and in the rendering in The Gospels as well, and so I'm hoping to debate

53:44

Anthony buzzard on that subject in the future We have a church in Atlanta that I think would be willing to host that so I'm hoping that that will

53:52

Take place sometime in the future now as to You're getting into Psalm 110 here and and Jesus's use of this in the

54:00

New Testament The Pharisees refused the scribes of Pharisees refused to answer Jesus's use of this because he asks them

54:07

How can the Messiah Be David's Lord his

54:12

Adonai it isn't relevant really to the answer that question whether you have

54:20

The Masoretic Val pointing or any anything else the point is that David refers to the

54:29

Messiah as his courios and this Clearly indicates that the

54:35

Messiah is superior to the very head of his lineage

54:41

Now in Jewish thought that would that could never be the possibility that the offspring is always lesser

54:49

Than the founder of that line, especially in a in a royal line and so to admit

54:55

That this is a messianic text which in the intertestamental period was seen as a nerd as a messianic text

55:02

There were there's evidence of that to admit that David could refer to his offspring as my lord

55:16

Indicated that there was something about the Messiah that is that is cannot be limited by the the less than full views of the

55:28

Messiah As a political Redeemer that the Jews had had embraced I wouldn't say that the mere

55:36

Argument there proves the deity of Christ who proves the deity of Christ is the rest of the verse Sit at my right hand so I make your enemies the footstool for your feet

55:45

It's not just Jesus is saying how he can he call him Lord but it goes beyond that to the recognition that this is one who has been seated at the very right hand of power and That that the father is

55:59

Subjecting his enemies to him and of course Hebrews then expands out upon all of this goes into the rest of psalm 110 and Especially points out that verse 4 you're a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek That this is tied together with what the

56:17

Messiah will accomplish I have a feeling that when Jesus opened the minds of the disciples in Luke 24 and in the

56:27

Conversations they had during that time period That this would have been one of those things that Jesus would have explained the testimony of the

56:33

Old Testament scriptures To his Messiah ship and to the fact that Messiah remember what's said in Luke 24 the

56:40

Messiah had to suffer and die It was necessary to suffer and die and I think we see that coming together in this hundred and ten psalm

56:47

That we have there. So the the deity of Christ is is found in his exalted status

56:54

He sits at the right hand of power. He is a priest forever after the order Melchizedek human beings just simply can't do that There has to be something divine about this person and Jesus then fulfills that in in his

57:08

Incarnation and his ministry in the New Testament Does that help? Well, hopefully we'll get to find out

57:24

Thank you, Steve, all right. Thanks for calling. God bless. Bye. Bye. Take care. All right

57:30

Talk about a range of calls today No kidding, and there was one more and I I need to kind of do a shout out to a brother here

57:38

Steven who just called and he had an excellent question and that is he'd like you to explain the difference between Clark Ian and ventrillion apologetics and I did tell him that it was a little late in the program for that but I just realized there is a very quick answer to that and that is

57:56

That one of them probably wouldn't wait until seven minutes before the end of the program to make that call

58:01

So, you know, there you go, brother yeah, and and I I will confess

58:07

I'm not a Clark Ian and And he said a lot of things that may if I had hair would made it make it fall out.

58:15

But Maybe we could address that. Maybe I know someone who probably does have enough expertise in that area to address that Maybe we can get him on the program at some point to to talk about that subject

58:27

But thanks for everybody for calling for those of you who are complaining that I had Cory on too long

58:33

I just think it is it's important to be able to demonstrate that when the enemies of the gospel

58:39

Are given an opportunity They just don't have much there They they they just don't and Of course, there are folks like Robert Price that are gonna keep me busy for hours trying to demonstrate the same thing just about a month from now, but Pray for that encounter.

58:57

We'll be back again next week Lord willing here on Tuesday not Thursday travel Thursday But we're back next

59:02

Tuesday on the dividing line. See you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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