December 20, 2016 Show with Tim J. R. Trumper on “When History Teaches Us Nothing: The Recent Reformed Sonship Debate in Context”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 20th day of December 2016 and before I introduce my guest and topic for the day,

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I want to remind you about the upcoming Roman Catholic versus Protestant debate to be held,

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God willing, Friday, January 13th, 7 p .m. at the historic

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Carlisle Theater, the 900 -seat Carlisle Theater dating back to the 20th century which has been restored to its original beauty and grandeur.

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This theater will be the home of the first annual, God willing, great debate here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, picking up on a series of debates

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I began in New York back in 1996 and the very first debate that I held in Long Island, New York in 1996 had an identical topic as the one that we are launching here in Carlisle, Mary, Sinless Queen of Heaven or Sinner Saved by Grace.

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The debaters are Roman Catholic apologist Robertson Jenis who is the founder of Catholic Apologetics International and former television host on EWTN and the

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Reformed Baptist opponent that he will be debating at this event is

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Dr. Tony Costa who is professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Canada and the tickets to this event are $5 and that's just because we have a lot of costs that need to be covered and if you want more details on this event please email me at thegreatdebatecarlisle at gmail .com

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that's the great debate carlisle c -a -r -l -i -s -l -e at gmail .com

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you can also email me at the email address that we normally use for our questions from our audience for our guests during the live broadcasts that's chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and please put the word debate in the subject line and of course you could also use that today for questions for our guests and also the day before that event thursday january 12th 11 a .m

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to 2 p .m we're having the next iron sharpens iron pastor's luncheon this is for men in the ministry only you don't necessarily have to be a pastor you could be a deacon an elder or a leader in a parachurch organization and we cannot accommodate the wives at this event this is a men's luncheon absolutely free of charge at the historic carlisle vault also in carlisle pennsylvania and a bank dating back to the early 20th century that has been transformed into a gorgeous catering hall here in town and this is going to include a sumptuous gourmet meal and every pastor is going to be getting a heavy sack filled with books brand new books donated from nearly every single major christian publisher in the united states and the united kingdom they do this every year so each pastor leaves with close to 40 books between 30 and 40 books each of these publishers donate 100 copies of a specific title that i select for the pastors and this is all i keep reminding you free of charge if you're interested in that please email me at chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com and put luncheon in the subject line so we hope that you join us for those events but today i'm so delighted to have on the program for the very first time dr tim jr trumper senior minister of the historic seventh reform church of grand rapids michigan many folks listening may recall a previous pastor there dr john r dewitt also known as dick dewitt uh well i am delighted to have the current pastor there on the program today and he is also a blogger at from his fullness .com

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that's from his fullness .com and we are going to be discussing a very controversial issue that is raging in theologically reformed and calvinistic circles these days uh the the title of our theme of our program today which is also the title of a book by dr trumper is when history teaches us nothing nothing the recent reformed sonship debate in context but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron dr tim jr trumper oh thank you chris thank you very much for the welcome and the uh invitation to speak with you this afternoon it's uh it's an important subject and i look forward to the time with you yes and i have had uh folks from both sides of this debate on the program although i have not done a two -hour treatment of this subject so i'm looking forward to this uh interview today but before we even go into that subject i want to know more about you about your upbringing uh as a young man uh as a child even uh in your home in wales and what kind of religious background that was if any and what providential things the lord brought about in your life that drew you to himself and saved you oh well thank you it's a wonderful privilege to be able to speak about god's grace in my life and the older i get the more where i am of the need of that grace um i grew up in in wales in the southwest corner of wales a beautiful county called pembrokeshire uh it's known as little england beyond wales because uh the people there speak english as a first language rather than welsh my father was a minister his name was peter trumper and he was a minister there in the presbyterian church of wales at least at the beginning of his ministry and prior to that he'd been a professional actor and the lord wonderfully saved him out of his atheism and he left the acting profession he'd made a few films by that time and he felt called to go into the ministry and faithfully served there in in wales and my mother stood by him and i was the third of four children they had i made a false profession of faith when i was eight i did so because i was struggling with what the bible means when it talks about belief and i thought well i believe everything in the bible so hey i must be a christian and i came to realize by the time i was 15 that there were different constituent elements to the whole notion of saving faith knowledge conviction and trust i had the knowledge but i didn't have the conviction and the trust until i was in my teenage years and so i came to the conclusion that at eight years of age i'd not been converted and thankfully by the grace of god came to the knowledge of jesus christ at the age of 15 and i remember very well my father coming to me after one sunday morning um service saying well i praise god that 25 of my children know the lord but i have to say that when i look at the 25 and i of course was the 25 i have my doubts and i saw that as of the lord to say well actually i i'm not a believer i uh i i don't know my sins forgiven and that freed me then to go on to seek the lord and to come through to that uh a real and genuine sense of the forgiveness of sins when i was 15 years of age and was the church that you were saved in by god's grace a theologically reformed congregation or was it a lot of people i know are saved uh in other uh atmospheres theologically but eventually come to the reformed faith but what was the case with you well actually um my father was a very evangelical very reformed but he was the first evangelical reformed minister in his congregation for 90 years and so he wrote a book about his uh his ministry there a remarkable period between 1962 through 1970 called as far as the bethany and he was the first english speaking minister in the presbyterian church of wales to secede from the denomination and martin lloyd jones on one occasion was asked where one of his congregants in london ought to go to church on holiday in wales and lloyd jones i can't repeat his accent but he said well there's a man by the name of trump trump trumpet and by all accounts he's busy blowing it yeah he he sent his congregants to my father my father had him preach um in the area and also as a very young minister just two two weeks into his ministry was invited by lloyd jones to devotions at one of his services in the area and so my father was very much um for the truth on fire for the truth the whole of his life and he he passed away in july 2015 and we miss him dearly now you are currently uh well first but even before i go into the seventh reform church which has a very fascinating background itself uh but uh how uh did you know that you were receiving a call from god to enter into the pastoral ministry and what eventually led you to come to america well i can assure you that wanting to be a minister as a son of a minister was about the last thing i wanted to do left to myself and i received no pressure from my parents to enter into the ministry um i remember on one occasion during my teenage years my father um saying to that he believed the lord would eventually call me into the ministry um but frankly i i didn't want to be uh um let me say this socially outstanding there in britain and uh so i went to university there in the university of wales and studied politics and it was there while i was uh in the lecture halls of the university listening to our political lecturers that the burden for truth i think that's really what hooked me towards the ministry was the burden for truth um to hear the political lecturers really uh ridicule the views of a previous generation and i thought well this is rather futile because the next generation is going to really uh ridicule theirs in some way or to some degree and i compared what i was hearing in the lecture halls with um what i was hearing in the church i went to uh as a student called ebony's a baptist church there in swansea and the minister was preaching through john's gospel at the time and i was just compelled by the wonderful truths of john's gospel and felt my heart yearning to uh to shout these truths from the housetop and yet as i came to the end of the degree and i was studying for my finals i was questioning how much i really wanted people to be saved and i would read people like spurgeon who would say well unless you've led you know two souls to the lord or whatever you're not being called to the ministry and that convicted me and so i uh i left university went back to north wales when my father had then gone previously gone as a minister from from south wales and i was before too long asked to preach in the church and i knew beforehand that i was going to be preached i was going to be invited to preach because i i sensed that the lord was putting that on the hearts of different people and i felt well if i go to preach this is the passage god has laid on me but as i walked down from the house to the church to preach a sort of flatness came over me and uh i pleaded with the lord not to forsake me as i as i went to preach this first evangelistic sermon so to speak and uh a lady was converted that night jenny mitchell and she's still going on with the lord and i came home to my father and mother i was living at home after university and my father by that time was homebound with multiple sclerosis and he said well how did the service go and my face was sort of white and pale and i said well jenny mitchell was converted and um and he uh he just gave some facial recognition of that and then the next morning i went into him in his study and brought him in a cup of tea i was in my early 20s and gave him a cup of tea and said he said to me well close the door a minute and there i was standing next to his desk he was at his desk and i was standing next to him and he dressed me down in a very blunt way and said to me don't you ever dare doubt again that you were called to preach and i thought well i've uh as a little boy i've stood at that desk many times being dressed down for this or that but never because someone was converted under a sermon i preached but my father knew me well and he knew that i needed that to go forward with confidence and to go to the free church of scotland college in edinburgh where i went now called edinburgh theological seminary and i never looked back after that uh ministry is difficult it's a privilege but it's difficult and that sense of calling has held me throughout and i praise god for that just out of curiosity do you know the man that was my pastor until very recently returning to the uk david campbell yes i know david yes david was in the free church of scotland yes before me right in the seminary yeah yeah and uh eventually he uh had a certain conviction of reform baptist theology and ecclesiology uh but uh now what was it that brought you here to the united states was it a direct call from seventh reform church in grand rapids michigan or was it something before that no i was in i was invited to teach at westminster seminary and uh taught there for several years i taught doctrine of god and doctrine of uh salvation and co -taught the doctrine of the church and several um doctoral electives including one on the theology of adoption so so i was invited to come and um seventh reform church is the uh well was the first church first body first anything to endow a chair at westminster seminary and while i was there um i was invited to speak at seventh and would speak to donors on a saturday night then then uh minister the word on the sunday and uh things changed in my life things changed in the life of the congregation and in 2006 i was i was 2007 i was invited to come as pastor now that church that congregation has a very interesting history because it was one of the last holdouts uh to remain in the reformed church in america that was very strongly conservative and strongly calvinist and confessionally reformed uh in a real way in a practice in practice uh more than just on paper and i know that that is that there was a point in time when the seventh reform church parted company with the rca if you could tell us about that well we the church is 126 years of age now and uh last year for the uh quaff quise centennial the 125th anniversary we published a book called gathered at the cross celebrating god's grace the seventh reformed church uh 1890 through 2015 and uh it depends who you ask um some would say that seventh reformed church was put out of the the denomination and others would say they left but dr de witt kindly wrote one of the chapters for that book and he he felt he owed it to the congregation to to give um an explanation of of what had happened and i'm not enough on an authority on what had happened but uh um i don't think circumstances since 1995 have enticed the uh the church to try and rejoin the reformed church in america so we've we've carried on and the denominational question still comes back as a discussion point from time to time but so we've not been able to resolve that however the church has remained very loyal to the theology of the continental reform faith and um in some ways is is still more reformed church in america than than the vast majority of churches that are in the reformed church yes yes that is very true and of course i do know i do know some rca men uh and i'm sure there are a lot more than i know who are biblically faithful and who are confessionally reformed and really mean it yeah in fact a friend of mine pastor yc tan on long island i don't know if you know him he is a pastor of uh the new hope reform church in new height park long island new york which is an rca church and there are i'm sure others but it is not known denominationally uh as something uh as a denomination that is firmly committed to calvinism anymore but it did have its roots in the dutch reformed church that uh has a very rich history of of strong uh commitment to the the uh the bible and also the reformed confessions of history the three forms of unity and so on yes and in many ways some form churches has moved on from that uh we certainly don't exist to uh to criticize brothers who remain in the denomination we've got our hands full uh trying to reach the lost around our community and that's our primary responsibility is also having the privilege of ministering through the radio um further afield so god god bless those who are endeavoring to serve faithfully within the reformed church in america well i'm going to give our uh email address again for anyone who would like to join us on the air with a question for dr trumper it is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the usa and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter such as if your own pastor has a belief that you disagree with or something like that we would obviously want you to remain anonymous in such cases but uh when it comes to this sonship debate what is the background of this debate and why is it arisen amongst reformed brothers in christ well i i think that it's it goes back into history and i'm not surprised that this debate has has in some senses come up again um i'm going to speak this afternoon about uh about this book that i wrote way back now in 2008 when history teaches us nothing but that's only a part of of uh the research that i've been involved with for 25 years and so if i may say a little bit about the historical background definitely um well if you look at the reformed tradition the reformed tradition has done more than other um traditions of theology with the doctrine of adoption now that's not necessarily to say too much because the doctrine has been quite consistently neglected in the history of the church and i've tried to outline some of that in articles and different places uh but if you think of the reformed tradition i mean there are two pillars i'm not saying that these are the only pillars but two main pillars or sources to which we can go with regard to the doctrine and one is calvin calvin until recently uh his his thoughts on adoption were largely hidden within his writings but i've worked hard with regard to my doctoral dissertation to show an outline of of of what he's written on the doctrine and that that is found in the phd and historical study of the doctrine of adoption in the calvinistic tradition so that's one one source calvin and then the other source historical source main source is the westminster standards which um we've often said contain the first confession to have a chapter on the doctrine of adoption maybe not the first creedal or catechetical document in the history of the church to to have a section on adoption because craig's catechism in 1581 also has some sections but after the westminster assembly in the mid 17th century the doctrine of adoption seems to have gone off the boil and i i think the reasons for that are various so for instance uh during the time of the uh reformation of course the two great debates were on the doctrine of justification and the doctrine of the lord's supper but if we stick with the doctrine of justification obviously the reformers were trying hard to understand the doctrine according to the scripture and also to preach and teach that doctrine but then when the puritans followed up they were to a large degree intent on safeguarding the advances of the reformation and so instead of going on and developing the theme of of adoption more than they did we can come back to that because that's a bit of a debated subject there were certain happenings going on in england and scotland for instance which i think puts the reform tradition on the back foot and so i can mention for instance the development of rationalism and the weariness with the intense theological rivalry of the 16th century and then developments in science and philosophy and an emphasis on the natural over the supernatural and then there was the uh the growth of uh the popularity of deism which was only really checked by the evangelical revivals of the 18th century and then there was uh arianism and sicilianism uh denials of the deity of christ and then there was arminianism and neonomianism john goodwin and arminian on the one hand and richard baxter neonomian on the other and then there was the whole by the time you come into the late 18th century the enlightenment and romanticism with its emphasis on experience and then the whole issue of industrialization in the 19th century and so by the time you got to the early 19th century the formal theology of the reformed faith had differed from the everyday theology of those who espoused it so for instance in the westminster confession of faith you've got chapter 12 of adoption in the larger catechism you've got question 74 of adoption and the shorter catechism question 34 but the doctrine of adoption plus the fatherhood of god really seemed over that period from 1650 say to 1830 to have fallen off the radar so that by the time you get to the early 19th century you've got men like thomas erskine of lynn latham in in scotland and john mcleod campbell in scotland who begin protesting for the restoration of what we might call paternal grace the grace of god the father erskine went from being a calvinist to a universalist within about 17 years as he pushed the fatherhood of god more and more in that direction and mcleod campbell was deposed from the church of scotland in 1831 and then went on in 1856 to write a book the nature of the atonement and so that spawned the whole movement of victorian liberalism but instead of the evangelical presbyterians or conservative reform discerning the kernel of truth in their protest namely the lopsidedness of the everyday working theology of the reform faith they of course put mcleod campbell out the church they basically ignored thomas erskine of lynn latham because this defensive mindset had developed and they could not see beyond that so then when this debate over sonship arose with jack miller at the turn of the millennium really i saw in that debate really a reliving of the protest that john mcleod campbell had made in the early 19th century and the fact that it had come up again albeit in a different guise was evidence that it was not dealt with the first time so in the book when history teaches us nothing i trace out certain commonalities between what mcleod campbell and thomas erskine were trying to do what jack miller was trying to do through world harvest mission in fact this is a perfect time to go to a break and we'll pick up where you left off and in fact we already have tyler and mastic beach long island waiting to have a question his question asked and answered by you uh thank you tyler for being patient we'll get to you as soon as possible when we return from the break god willing if anybody would like to join tyler from mastic beach long island new york with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com but don't go away we are going to be right back after these messages hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor chris arnzen here and i can't wait to head down to atlanta georgia and here's my friend dr james white to tell you why hi i'm james white of alpha and omega ministries i hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by pastor josh vice and praise mill baptist church at the georgia international convention center in atlanta january 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the protestant reformation i'll be joined by paul washer steve lawson d .a

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carson vody balkan conrad and bayway phil johnson rosaria butterfield todd freal and a host of other speakers who are dedicated to the pillars of what g3 stands for gospel grace and glory for more details go to g3 conference .com

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that's g3 conference .com thanks james make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there charles haddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio i am chris arns and host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of rc sproles book relationship between church and state i rely on world because i trust the reporting i gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter i believe you'll also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community this trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on -scene reporting from world radio and the fully shareable content of world digital simply visit wmg .org

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forward slash iron sharpens today welcome back this is chris arns and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is dr tim jr trumper senior minister of seventh reform church in grand rapids michigan and a blogger at from his fullness dot com we are discussing his book when history teaches us nothing the recent reformed sonship debate in context if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com by the way i forgot to ask you since you are from wales originally dr trumper i had on my program very recently mark johnston minister of the bethel presbyterian church in cardiff wales are you familiar with uh mark johnston oh yes yeah very much so oh great i just wanted to check with you and that i really had a nice time uh interviewing him good uh we we have uh tyler and mastic beach long island new york who is asking something that you already touched on he says is it true that miller's view of sonship is often associated with antinomianism and perhaps you could even define antinomianism i know that it means anti -law and i know that christians use that term differently at times and sometimes i think that they misuse it but if you could uh explain exactly what that means and also answer tyler's question of course well i i guess antinomianism can take on different forms depending on on um on the person or the viewpoint um but basically it's a lopsided view of uh the christian life which accents grace to the expense of uh perhaps what we might call the third use of the law so um i think what we want to say as believers is that uh the law does have a function in christian living and um that gives us a structure to our freedom for our freedom as a freedom um from sin not a freedom to sin and uh um i would see it as very much along those lines but um you know these terms in regular conversation can be banded around and um that was one of the reasons why i wrote the book because uh i felt all the all the microphones were a couple of sets of hands and uh um the um the debate needed to be evened out a bit especially set in the context so actually actually um i haven't got so much into the case as to whether jack miller and will harvest mission were antinomian but i just felt that uh there were sufficient loopholes in the arguments of those more inclined to make that case that uh um certain arguments ought to be made that might give a better uh context in which the discussion could be could be held well guess what tyler you have won a free copy of our guest's book when history teaches us nothing the recent reform debate the recent reform sonship debate in context that's compliments of our guest dr tim jr trumper and seventh reform church of grand rapids michigan and also that will be shipped to you absolutely free of charge by cumberland bible book service cvbbs .com

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and they sponsor our program and have been faithfully shipping out the winners in our audience all the bibles and books and dvds and cds that they win by submitting questions to our guests so thank you very much for contributing to today's program tyler and mastic beach new york yeah if i may just jump in there a minute chris and just say that yeah the third the third chapter the rejection of sonship goes into more detail with the with the questions about about the uh the uh concerns that were raised about the sonship course okay great and we have cj from lindenhurst long island new york who wants to know if this sonship debate you are referring to has any connection at all with the current trinity debate that is swirling amongst reformed christians that involves economic subordinationism a view of the father -son relationship in the trinity that seems to have sparked some heat amongst fellow calvinists not not that i know of um cj um you know one one concerns the godhead and the trinity the other very much concerns the christian life and what it means to be sanctified whether we're sanctified by faith or um so i i see those debates as as very as very different but i i do know from the one debate in which i've been involved uh that context is is very important and it's it's it's uh it's helpful to know history it's helpful to know theology and above all it's helpful to know the scriptures and with so many of our reformed debates i think a little less heat might actually give us a little more light yeah and being sinners that we are uh that is something that is easier said than done yeah yeah sure uh one of the things that i have said to folks when they uh uh sometimes in a mocking fashion will uh condemn the reformed community for our constant infighting let alone the condemnation they see us pronouncing upon people outside of our community but they uh they will often say that we uh are more involved in that kind of thing than anybody else i don't think that that is necessarily true but what i have said is since reformed people have a reputation i think a very well deserved reputation in a good sense for being meticulous about truth about doctrine about what our lord has breathed out in his inerrant word that reformed people have a tendency to be more careful and meticulous about these things and that combined with the fact that we are sinners saved by grace that means that's very often more often that we than we care to admit or like uh we will uh take that meticulous nature and abuse it at times wouldn't you say that that's true yeah i i i'm not arguing that we be uh less meticulous about the truth but we could do with being more uh generous with regard to grace i mean we follow the lord jesus christ he was full of grace and truth amen if he's if he's our model then we ought to be growing not only in our understanding but also in our uh in our reflection of the lord jesus christ and um as one of my professors once said to me uh as his own uh journey was unfolding uh it's not that i care less about truth but it's that i care more about love amen and uh thank you very much much cj from lindenhurst long island new york please give us your full mailing address so we can have a free copy of this book when history teaches us nothing by dr tim jr trumper uh that you should god willing receive in the mail probably shortly after christmas sometime chris may i may i just comment on the on the title of the book in light of what we just said oh yeah definitely well um my former colleague uh claire davis has been uh very complimentary about the book um is down in writing somewhere saying that the the book title is weird claire has a way with words but i i ought to explain it because when i when i say when history teaches us nothing i'm not thinking of individuals knowing nothing about history um but you'll find on the frontispiece of the book a quote from martin lloyd jones in which he talks about the german philosopher hegel and hegel coming up with the famous saying history teaches us that history teaches us nothing and lloyd jones in a certain lecture that he gave can we learn from history he says my contention is that the christian should learn from history that because he is a christian it is his duty to do so and he must rouse himself to do so but just want to say that in light of the call for us to be uh seeking grace as well as truth that the title is not meant to be caustic it's uh it's a it's a play off that uh quote from martin lloyd jones yes when it comes to weird titles i think that perhaps that one is neck and neck with peter jones's book one or two which is a long time to think that one up but a very good book i might might add by peter jones um uh the uh well if you could really uh in detail as much as you can uh considering this is we've only got an hour and 15 minutes left explain the two extreme opposite ends of this debate uh as far as those that are within the pale of biblical christianity or who are considered genuinely historically reformed and so on well like i said my my book is somewhat different in the sense that i haven't got into the nitty gritty of uh uh you know the doctrine of sanctification uh my concern has been that the whole debate was uh talked about in an a contextual way and if you take the context out then people speak past each other and this is not the only debate in which this is happening right now um so i felt that if you put the doctrine of adoption and the theological history of the doctrine of adoption as the context of the debate then whether you have gone through the sonship course or whether you have not um we have a responsibility as a community specifically the reform community to look at the very least for the kernel of truth in in what uh in what jack miller was saying and so in the dedication of the book i've dedicated it to a number of the apostle paul john calvin john mcleod campbell and jack miller and what i've said of jack miller is who's scratched around where an increasing number of us have been itching and so obviously you've got those who were concerned about the course because they felt if i can speak in broad strokes that it wasn't doing enough justice to uh the third use of the law if i may put it that way and the whole notion of responsibility and duty and was in fact a lopsided presentation of grace so almost like privilege without without responsibility and the criticisms i felt were coming near to responsibility without privilege and so if you inject into the debates the history of the doctrine of adoption and calvin's point that the whole of our sanctification is worked out in the concept or in the context the atmosphere of sonship then the two sides could come could come and at least listen to each other now if you could because keep in mind that we have listeners although i believe that most of my listeners would be those who are familiar with our vocabulary and are members of reformed churches and so on that is not always the case i have listeners that are muslim at on occasion i have listeners that are armenian uh evangelicals i have listeners that are roman catholic i have listeners that are agnostic and atheist and i have listeners uh that are none of the above perhaps in groups that we would call cults we and we have listeners that just are not affiliated with any church and perhaps are just uh searching and so on um but if you could explain explain a summary of what the doctrine of adoption is well that's a one that's a wonderful question and we talk a lot about being justified by faith alone maybe the day will come once adoption has been retrieved recovered whatever the word you want to use when we'll be talking as much about adoption by faith alone and the heart of the doctrine of adoption really the way in which paul uses the term adoption and uses on five occasions but he uses it in such a way that it covers the entirety of the history of redemption but the real critical text the central text what we may call in latin the locus classicus of the doctrine of adoption is found in galatians four and i'll just read that to you for a moment and then make a few comments on it where paul writes in a way very very relevant to our christmas season but when the fullness of the time had come god sent forth his son born of woman born under the law to redeem those who are under the law so that we might receive adoption of sons because you are sons god has sent forth the spirit of his son into our hearts crying abba father so you're no longer a slave but a son and if a son then an heir through god so let me just put it like this whether we're from a religious background like like the jews of old or whether we're from a pagan background like the the gentiles of old uh this is good news what john calvin called the good news of adoption for for any and for all christ has come he's been united to us in our humanity he's made of woman made under the law so under the law he works out a perfect righteousness for us that we cannot work out for ourselves and he goes to the cross and there he pays the ransom price for our redemption or our freedom so you've got the work of christ who dies for us on our behalf upon the cross paying through his own shed blood uh the ransom price we cannot pay for ourselves but then you've also got reference here by the apostle paul to the ministry of the holy spirit who works in us and when we receive the adoption that's the faith we do nothing to earn it we simply receive it we bring our empty hands to receive adoption as much as we bring our empty hands to receive justification when we receive adoption of sons of faith we are united to the lord jesus christ so we become sons of god in the sun and by being in the sun we can now call god our father and it is the holy spirit who puts the name father god's name father on our lips and so paul says because you are son god has sent the spirit of his son into our hearts crying abba father that's not a confidence that's assurance of god's love and because you are sons you are no longer enslaved but you are is um through god so that's really the crux of it it's receiving a relationship with god and life in that relationship lived out throughout the course of our lives now how would this debate differ and on the flip side be similar to the lordship salvation controversy that became very much a focal point of the christian media especially amongst christian authors uh in the 1980s uh when john macarthur a dispensationalist he was not quite a full -blown calvinist at the time but he was heading there uh when john macarthur wrote the gospel according to jesus and the many if not most of the reformed community applauded and fell in love with this book and heavily promoted it and you had a very negative reaction to many others who are dispensationalists from dallas theological seminary people like charles ryrie and zane hodges and even charles stanley uh wrote things in opposition and the knee -jerk reaction of a lot of these dispensationalists was that lordship salvation was teaching a repackaged roman catholicism when it came to justification and obviously since i have read and re -read dr macarthur's book that nothing could be farther from the truth uh so if you could i don't know since this was a controversy primarily raging here in the united states i don't know how familiar are with it but if you could uh let us know how similar and how different this current controversy may be to that well i don't think there's any direct link between the two um but obviously there seems to be an ongoing pattern here of knowing how to relate privilege and responsibility in the christian life yeah yes perhaps i failed to announce or explain to our listeners that the lordship controversy that uh really it existed prior to the 80s but it really got a lot of attention from folks and actually split churches and so on because those who espoused what is called lordship salvation which actually started that phrase as a as a derogatory term by dispensationalists who disagreed with dr macarthur's views but but those who espoused dr macarthur's views lovingly embraced the term uh basically dr macarthur was saying that the gospel necessitates and requires repentance as a vital element and that those who are truly born again will bear fruit they will repent they will bear fruit they will not be perfect they can never attain they can never achieve sinlessness in this life but they will certainly have lives marked by godliness and repentance whereas the many in the dispensationalist camp confused that with the roman catholic concept of meritorious works and made false charges in my opinion that this was as i said earlier repackaged romanism uh but i'm sorry but i interrupted you because i wanted to make it clear since i didn't really explain my terms before well i'm not sure how i could explain that in terms of adoption but to explain it in terms of repentance and faith i mean they are distinct but they are inseparable right um we're not saved because of our faith we're saved on the occasion upon which we believe amen in the lord jesus christ we're not saved because of our repentance but we are saved on the occasion of us turning to god amen um act 20 verses uh verse 21 you know paul going from house to house this is the text actually that's on my father's grave uh preaching repentance toward god and faith toward the lord jesus christ and some sometimes in the new testament what you have is uh of this response to the gospel spoken of in terms of faith but repentance is understood and sometimes of repentance when faith is understood and there are a few occasions when the two things are brought together uh i love the um the saying of professor murray you know we we talk of and rightly talk of a believing repentance and a penitent faith and that when we when we trust ourselves to the lord jesus we are not parceling out the lord jesus saying well in faith i take him as my savior but because i'm not repentant i'm not going to take him as my lord no you believe in the person of the lord jesus christ and the person you believe in is not only savior but lord and then that has knock -on effects as to how we live out the christian life and and that's what i mean by these debates being tangentially connected by how we understand the privilege of grace on the one hand and the responsibility of obedience on the other and we are going to get to pastor sterling vander workers question from greensboro north carolina when we return from our next station break if you would like to join pastor sterling with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old usa don't go away we'll be right back with dr tim jr trumper right after these messages from our i'm chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio and here's one of my favorite guests todd friel to tell you about a conference he and i are going to hello this is todd friel host of wretched radio and wretched tv and occasional guest on chris's show iron criticizing i think i think that's what it's called hoping that you can join chris and me at the g3 conference in atlanta my new home town it is going to be a bang up conference called the g3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the protestant reformation with paul washer steve lawson d .a

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carson vody bachum conrad and bayway phil johnson james white and a bunch of other people we hope to see you there learn more at g3 conference .com

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eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com

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eastern time is the segment that you can be assured of solid biblical christian programming from pastor bill shishko of the orthodox presbyterian church if you just tuned us in we have as our guest today for the full two hours with one hour to go dr tim jr trumper senior minister of seventh reform church in grand rapids michigan and blogger at from his fullness dot com we're discussing his book when history teaches us nothing the recent reformed sonship debate in context and we have a pastor sterling vanderwerker from greensboro north carolina who asks i've got to admit that i am not familiar with the controversy could the author state the two primary sides of the disagreement and if possible note at least one well -known pastor who would hold the opposing positions well thank you pastor sterling uh yeah in some senses this um this debate uh i don't know if it's still raging world harvest mission i think has done um some work to um interact or respond to the criticisms that were made they brought out uh um another manual called gospel transformation and in the eight years since i published this book i've not really followed up things since then and they've gone on to change their their name to surge um i've not ever had a formal response from them about the book although i thought to do them a service by by defending them in some senses from unfair uh criticism although to be totally transparent i've not done the course myself those who criticized the course would include dr j adams former colleague of jack miller and then i also interacted with an article by chad van dickson called the sonship program for revival which was published in the westminster theological journal and then terry johnson minister in savannah georgia asking whether uh the sonship course was an adequate psychology of experience and that was on the presbyterian church in america website but i i set out to write the book in order that the two sides if you have jack miller on the one hand although he passed away in 1996 and um j adams chad van dickson and terry johnson on the other if you if you if you see those as want of a better term the two main parties i tried to write the book in such a way that whatever remaining differences there might be about the biblical teaching of sanctification they may at least see that uh when you put the whole discussion in its historical context that you may be able on the basis of a greater unity to discuss the actual issues pertaining to the details well thank you pastor sterling and you have also won a free copy of the book when history teaches us nothing the recent reformed sonship debate in context by dr tim jr trumper and please give us your full mailing address so we can have compliments of dr trumper and the cumberland valley bible book service who will be mailing that to you free of charge and we thank todd and patty jennings at cvbbs .com

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that's cumberland valley bible book service cvbbs .com for their faithful support of iron sharpens iron and uh one note to our listener david in ada ohio since pastor sterling vanderworker pretty much asked the same question you did why don't you submit another question uh other than the one that you have submitted to us we would be happy to submit that question to dr trumper as soon as you send it thank you david in ada ohio um we uh let's see we have uh pj in bridge city texas who has a question and i am enlarging it i'm enlarging the font on his email because it is microscopic okay his question is what is the different what is the difference between the topic of sonship you speak of in galatians versus the topic of faithful sonship in the book of hebrews oh that's a that's a wonderful question it brings me to uh to different aspects of the research in which i've been involved over these 25 years one the one branch of the reef resource research has led to the production of the dissertation which is historical theology and the other branch of the resource research has had to do with biblical studies studies in the whole notion of metaphor or model and then the one particular model of biblical theology we call redemptive history so one of the things i've been i've been arguing is that paul alone of all the authors of scripture and the new testament in particular uses the sole term for adoption quiet as here is the compound term coming from two words quios meaning son and ceasir from the verb to say me which means to place so adoption is the placing of a son within what paul calls in ephesians 219 the household of god and i've been arguing then that speaks of a distinctively structured model as we call it what we might say are a robust metaphor within scripture and so we need to understand the apostle paul on his own terms and when you do that and you look at the five uses of quiesus here beginning with ephesians 1 4 through 5 which talks about us being predestined unto adoption and then romans 9 4 the first of six privileges israel had under the old covenant and then you go to galatians 4 and we dealt with that earlier receiving the adoption and then romans 8 15 and 16 no longer having the spirit of bondage again to fear or slavery again to fear but the spirit of adoption and then romans 8 22 and 23 awaiting the redemption of the body the adoption that's those five uses of quizzes here are five markers along this uh wonderful strand of redemptive history from the first things to the last things and what i'm arguing is that when you take hold of those five terms you have a distinctive and coherently structured model and one of the things that's happened in systematic theology which i feel has done a better justice to the divineness of scripture than the humanness of scripture with its different authors in the new testament i feel that uh systematic theology has run together too quickly run together um the what we call filial or familial terminology of the new testament and so what i want to do is sort of separate out these authors so that we can understand their particular perspective on the filial relationship that the believer has to god of course there's a certain difficulty with hebrews because you immediately enter the question as to who wrote the letter to hebrews but my my concern is to deal with hebrews initially at least on its own the pauline writings on their own the johannine writings on their own in which the model is not adoption it's it's the new birth and you get some of that also also in peter so uh you know the author of hebrews certainly says some very relevant things especially with regard to hebrews chapter two that's in the gospels fear of death is taken away because christ becomes one of us in our humanity he breaks the enslavement to the fear of death and then of course in hebrews chapter 12 the whole discussion about chastisement and chastisement being an indication of our authentic sonship to god but initially at least i would deal with those those differently and give due respect to the authorial diversity or at least the contextual diversity of the different books of the new testament and i would try and understand the author of hebrews on his own terms before making comparisons or contrasts with what the apostle paul has to say given the the readership that he has well thank you pj in bridge city texas and you have also won a free copy of the book we are discussing today when history teaches us nothing the recent reform sonship debate in context by our guest dr tim jr trumper so keep your eye open for an envelope or a package that says cv bbs .com

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on the label that's cv for cumberland valley bbs for bible book service dot com uh thank you uh not only uh to seventh reform church and dr trumper for supplying these books but thank you to cumberland valley bible book service for shipping them out and uh we have uh a listener in white plains new york rj we went from pj to rj and uh rj wants to know if this current this controversy has anything to do with the hyper grace movement i have heard about that seems to be primarily existing and dividing brethren in the pca denomination well again i i'm not sure that uh there's a direct connection but i i come back to this wrestling that's evidently going on between the the privileges we have as a believer and the responsibilities of obedience we have as a believer and when if i may speak to this in more general ways in terms of what what dawned on me when i was trying to put together as a treatment of calvin's understanding of adoption what what came to my mind was the way in which calvin balanced on the one hand our lord's delight in his father he always did those things which delighted his father and yet on the other hand he was procuring a perfect righteousness for us by living under the law and so whichever debate we talk about whether it be the hyper grace movement in the pca and i'm not in the pca so i i'm cautious to speak about you know that that's uh a debate and discussion there whatever we think about these things i think there's a balance to be had here on the one hand if you just focus on the law then then and the law becomes an end in itself then of course grace becomes overshadowed but if you only focus upon love without any structure for the expression of our love then grace can be abused in the way in which it's way in which it's held and so i think theologically and biblically there's much ground to be had by looking at the lord jesus christ who on the one hand always pleased his father and yet did so by keeping the law and also historically speaking by going to somebody like calvin who on the one hand talks about the third use of the law but sets it in the context of the example of christ in keeping the law in order to please his father so calvin sought to balance these these two things and he thought then to speak of the christian life in terms of delighting to do the will of the father through obedience so it's not a dry arid beautiful obedience without the delight but nor is it an empty rhetoric of delight which is missing the concrete acts of obedience whether of commission of or of omission and i think whatever the debate whether it be the sonship debate or whether it be that debate in the pca looking at church history and ultimately looking to the lord jesus christ is is our way to to cut through some of these things well thank you rj in white plains new york and we will send you out a free copy of this book when history teaches us nothing by our guest dr tim jr trumper as our way of saying thanks to for you or to you for providing that question today and please make sure we have your full mailing address in white plains new york and that will be shipped out to you again by cvbbs .com

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and we thank dr trumper and seventh reform church for supplying the books we have arnie in perry county pennsylvania who asks are any of those involved in this controversy that you speak of espousing the extreme easy believism that was known amongst dispensationalists who were opposed to the lordship salvation made popular by john macarthur in the 1980s some of these men although fundamentalists seem to be teaching that is if one were to recite a prayer at an altar call that no matter how wretchedly and satanically they lived the rest of their lives and no matter how long they lived in rebellion they would still enter to heaven after their death because of this profession of faith are there any of that extreme sort involved in this controversy that you are describing i don't think so but my guess is that the critics of the sonship discipleship course are afraid of an imbalance within what was i can't speak for now what was the sonship discipleship course and so they are wanting to critique especially the the phrase sanctification by faith and saying that there is more to sanctification by faith and in that sense i have to say they are true i mean we are sanctified by truth too we are sanctified by the lord's blessing of our obedience to the law of god we are sanctified by the fellowship of believers and so they want to make sure that in the endeavor that jack miller had to get away from uh the jadedness of of duty a duty taken in isolation that we don't go from one extreme to another extreme that's that's how i tend to understand the debate thank you arnie and perry county you have also won a free copy of the book when history teaches us nothing the recent reformed a bit reform sonship debate in context um tell us a bit more detail about this actual course and what is involved in the the this course itself well well you know i i hesitate to do so one because the world harvest mission i think has um has responded to the criticisms received uh through the work many years ago now of somebody like neil williams um and so i i think i would prefer to leave it to them to speak about these things i've not been concerned so much with um the details of the course but um the way in which sonship was being spoken about i i felt if i'm going to be balanced myself and reflect upon it that there was a bit too much anecdotal theology a bit too much soundbite theology and maybe not enough exegesis especially in the realm of talking about orphanhood the context of adoption in the language of the apostle paul the writings of the apostle paul is very much slavery we adopted our sons from slavery not orphanhood and i felt that there was a confusion between uh what jesus says for instance in john 14 18 i will not leave you as orphans i will come again to you and what james says in his letter about true religion being care of the orphans there's a confusion of that with what paul says about us being slaves and i think this is quite often the case with the popular treatments of adoption that it is adoption from orphanhood when the apostle paul is speaking about adoption from um you know being an outworking of our redemption from slavery right well is this an attempt to soften the fact that those outside of christ are children of the devil that the the devil is the father of those outside of the christian faith until those which are elect are drawn out of that category they're rescued from it no i i've not i've not sensed that it's an attempt to soften that but i think at a popular level it's been an attempt to encourage believers to sense the love of god the father for us i mean it's an admirable desire we should all want to know more of the love of god the father and the idea then that we're not cosmic orphans but we're adopted we're received we are accepted into the family of god and so no matter what happens to us we are united to christ we are within the family we need not feel like cosmic orphans i i think that's more that's more the idea behind it but then also um there is the whole adoption movement and i have friends in this movement and i'm very respectful of this movement i think they're doing a tremendous work with regards to uh the adopting of children but i think it's been an attempt to work out a theology which encourages the church to adopt young children uh and i want to say well the bible certainly encourages care of the adoption through through care of the orphans through james 1 27 and also other passages in scripture we have enough evidence in society today of enslavement whether it be through drug addiction or whatever other addiction there is to to have plenty to work with as a practical context out of which we can we can apply the teaching of adoption in a way that's faithful to the context of adoption within the scriptures well david in ada ohio wrote another question that's that no one else has submitted uh he says as i understand adoption it is completely one -sided i .e

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god adopted us the same as we are saved by god it is one of our benefits from god holy by grace without our doing the point being made is about being in christ thus we are sons by adoption through union with him am i in the ballpark on this oh very much so that's that's what i was saying earlier that uh because uh we have focused so much on justification to the um to the oversight really of adoption in many ways we are very familiar come reformation day of speaking about justification through faith alone and i think it's entirely as permissible to speak about our adoption through faith alone in fact i've preached at least one or two sermons with that title and going back to what we saw in galatians 4 i think that's a very powerful uh depiction of the freeness of our adoption when when paul talks there about us receiving the adoption why does he say about receiving the adoption because receiving the adoption is the only thing we can do with it do and i think that's a beautiful truth you know you go to ephesians 1 we are predestined to adoption and the word for predestination there is pre -horizoning that we have been pre -horizon to adoption from before the foundation of the world a blessing that comes from god the father through jesus christ by the spirit israel was chosen out of all the nations of the earth and the first privileged poor lists in romans 9 4 they were adopted we've mentioned galatians 4 and and on you go and then the publication of our adoption at the end of the age romans 8 22 through 23 the redemption of the body we don't redeem our own bodies from the grave it's something that jesus christ will do when he comes in power and glory so from beginning to end adoption is grace right the way through and unto glory well uh david you have won the final copy of the book that we have been given away i don't mean the final copy in all of the world i mean the final copy that we have to give away uh to our winning listeners uh of the the book when history teaches us nothing the recent reform sonship debate in context by dr tim jr trumper compliments of dr trumper and seventh reform church of grand rapids michigan and also that will be shipped out to you free of charge by cvbbs .com

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cumberland valley bible book service cv as in cumberland valley bbs revival book service .com

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and we thank cvbbs for sponsoring and shipping out all of the listeners their free bibles books and other gifts uh for those submitting questions to our guests on iron sharpens iron and we are going to our final break now if anybody else would like to join us on the air this is your last opportunity we have about a half hour left in the program and our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside of the good old usa uh don't go away we are going to be back god willing very soon with dr trumper hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

01:27:42

eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor iron sharpens iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving south central pennsylvania solid rock remodeling is focused on discovering understanding and exceeding your expectations they deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results solid rock remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath remodeling decks porches windows and doors roof and siding and more for a clear detailed professional estimate call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time call solid rock remodeling at 717 -697 -1981 717 -697 -1981 or visit solidrockremodeling .com

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that's solidrockremodeling .com solid rock remodeling bringing new life to your home linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

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hcbible .org call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689 harvey cedars where christ finds people and changes lives paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man if i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ hi i'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church we are a reformed baptist church and we to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in nofolk massachusetts we strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostle's priority it must not be ours either we believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love if you live near nofolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org

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that's providence baptist church ma .org or even on sermonaudio .com providence baptist church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio welcome back this is chris arns and if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes in the next half hour to come our guest has been and will continue to be dr tim jr trumper senior minister of seventh reform church of grand rapids michigan and blogger at from his fullness dot com we have been discussing and will continue to discuss when history teaches us nothing the recent reform sonship debate in context a title of one of dr trumper's books and by the way before i forget to i want to give the website for seventh reform church it's the number seven with the th after it ref as in abbreviation for reformed .org

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seventh ref .org and once again the term or the word seventh is spelled with the numeral seven not the word and uh we have uh all the way in kinross scotland we have murray in kinross scotland who says you mentioned that jack miller had most likely reacted against extremes when arriving at what critics feared was unqualified sanctification by faith but did jack miller also misrepresent or overlook any key scriptures to arrive at his position well uh i'm very familiar with murray he's been a great blessing to me oh over many years really yeah he's uh he's uh really encouraged the research and i'm so thankful that murray sent in a question um well uh so far as i remember the uh the context i and the folk at world harvest michigan correct me if i'm misstating this but i think that he was responding to missionaries coming back from the mission field who felt jaded and burned out maybe because they put uh there was a lopsided emphasis on duty as opposed to to grace um my my uh look into this debate suggests that jack miller in some sense was doing very little different from what have done for for a long time and that is to conflate to bring together to mix as it were the filial or familial language of the new testament so with a context of great emphasis upon the divinity of scripture and the unity of scripture there's been an endeavor i think unconsciously so to make the system of theology neat and so instead of dealing with each author of the new testament on his own terms according to the model that he himself is using or models there has been an endeavor to or practice of running together the language of the new testament which has muddied the clarity of the picture of adoption that we have in paul or indeed for example the picture of the new birth that we have especially in john so i don't see for myself from what i've read i don't see anything heretical in uh jack miller's perspective or indeed that of world harvest mission i see a reaction and an endeavor to do greater justice to the fatherhood of god and greater justice to uh the grace of god in the gospel and the grace of god in the christian life and those who have come against jack miller want to rebuke him for that but in some senses they are reacting out of the context in which there has already been a lopsidedness wherein the fatherhood of god and the adoption of sons has not been given its due so in this popular theology i feel exegesis has become a bit the victim and it's more along the lines of of improving our exegesis and improving our understanding of how the language of scripture functions than it is about setting up heresy trials or whatever well thank you very much murray and kindle raw scotland and please keep spreading the word about iron sharpens iron radio all over the uk we really appreciate it whenever you contribute to the program with a great question for our guests and our email address once again is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com uh let's see we have bb in cumberland county pennsylvania who wants to know how are the controversies amongst brothers in christ different in general in the uk where you are originally from than what you have experienced here in the united states is there any difference of emphasis in those controversies in the uk as opposed to here in america well that's that's a good question bb it's been 17 years since i've lived in the united kingdom although i'm back there quite frequently and of course in that time you know the social media and everything has taken off and we're we're participants together on both sides atlantic and the english -speaking world and so i think they're very much the same but i think in the reformed world as we mentioned earlier whether in britain or or in the united states we need to choose our battles more carefully and we need to keep our discussions within proportion to the to the details which are actually under under debate so probably others living in the uk could speak more to that than i can at this point thank you bb and keep listening and spreading the word here in carlisle and cumberland county pennsylvania i really want to make sure before we run out of time we have 20 minutes left but i want to give you uh at least five minutes where you have the floor interrupted to really summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this subject before we take any more listener questions well thank you thank you very much um i guess i could answer that at several levels uh historically um i would hope that we can begin to move beyond the recognition that adoption is neglected that has become a truism basically every book that comes out on adoption and things have changed so much in the 25 years since i've been researching this subject talks about the neglect of adoption i've been trying to piece together the theological history of adoption so that we have a very clear picture of the way that neglect has unfolded the influences upon it but i think now we need to say you know this is a really rich truth that we need to run with uh theologically and practically another thing that i would hope to come out of it is in terms of a better understanding of how the language of scripture actually works john framers made the point that the uh the understanding of religious language and by that i understand it to mean the language of scripture is one of the major themes which has not really been adequately addressed in the discipline of systematic theology and then um a third thing also in the realm of how um redemptive history impacts our understanding of and also feel for the truth of scripture that it's not simply me and my salvation that we are part of this wonderful meta -narrative as we call it this history this glorious story of god's redemption of his people because in the western world we're very individualistic and we need to balance the i with the we and an emphasis upon the household of god and brothers and sisters in christ helps us do that and then of course uh at a at a personal level and a spiritual level it's i find it truly grieving to to think that there are countless numbers of reformed christians if we just leave it with reformed christians who are unable to come to the lord's table because they they feel not worthy to come and when you look at galatians four and you look at romans eight the spirit in galatians four crying out it's a cry of liberation abba father and then in romans eight the spirit having taught us how to pray abba father we then are the ones who cry abba father and to see a greater assurance of god's love and a greater assurance of our salvation so that we can come and truly celebrate the gospel when we come to the lord's table and put away this uh uriah heap mentality um woe is me yes woe is me but we have a wonderful christ who has shed his blood for us he's our elder brother and god the father has given us wonderful assurances in the new testament that he loves us and that there is nothing in life or in death which can separate us from his love and then of course there are practical outworkings in terms of unity if we really understand that we're brothers and sisters together in the lord jesus christ how that could transform the way in which we relate to each other and on and on it goes the practical ramifications of this teaching now this would probably not be the the main problem or most prevalent problem in modern broad evangelicalism but it is a problem that exists probably especially amongst calvinists and even some of our fundamentalist brethren and that would be morbid introspectivism there you cut you already touched on this but there is a great danger in being morbidly introspective constantly retreating back into uh terrifying and depressing thoughts of our own wickedness that can very often even paralyze people and leave them immobile and fruitless in a sense where they are not living out their christian lives the way they should be because they're they've almost made themselves hermits in their own torment in their mind you have any comment on that well i think this again i i'm a big believer in that if something's of god if something's of the scripture if something's of the holy spirit then it's balanced and i don't mean by balance mediocre i mean trying to hold different things together and so from a pastoral perspective you have different sorts of people and even from personal perspective some of us are introspective and of course the uh the quote by uh robert maria mccain comes to mind for every one look at self take 10 looks at christ and that's the sort of counsel you give to the person who's introspective and say to them instead of looking at yourself day in day out why don't you just leave it until you come to communion and there's a preparatory week or whatever and examine yourself as we're called to do so before we come to the table but then there are others of us who are extraspective who love the theme of the grace of god but perhaps could do with examining ourselves a little bit more often so to bring those two extremes together i think adoption helps us do that because we are united as sons in the sun and therefore when we come to god and call upon him as father we remember that the prayer abba father was uttered by the lord jesus christ in the garden of gethsemane and it was not uh it may well have meant daddy but it wasn't daddy as we mean it today it was uh the son coming to the father knowing that he was loved and yet set in his mind to be obedient to the father and go to the cross so i'd like to i'd like to see both those things both those things addressed in my own life as well as in the lives of those who my servants the community that we represent we excuse me uh let's see we have uh joseph in suffolk county long island new york who says i am aware that you chris are a reformed baptist and your guest is a presbyterian and i mean no disrespect towards presbyterians or pato baptists but i was wondering what your guests thoughts are on the danger that exists amongst pato baptists where they assume their children are regenerate and do not view them as a mission field well thank you very much joseph that's that's a good question i i want to say for myself that i i don't assume that um i am hotly opposed to what we might call presumptive regeneration and i believe and practice this when i preach at an infant baptism of the need to stress the responsibilities of the covenant as well as the privileges of the covenant and certainly having made a false profession of faith at the age of eight years of age i am very well aware and very concerned about the possibility of people just assuming or presuming they are they are christian because from the standpoint of my theology they have been baptized into the visible church the covenant community of god's people and so i would want to stress very much stress the importance of a covenant child believing upon the name of the lord jesus christ for themselves and not relying upon the standing of the parents one parent or two parents or the standing of a sibling and i i am happy to be a pedo -baptist but i also recognize the responsibility i have as a minister of the gospel to speak into the community in which i minister about the dangers of that presumption and yet to do so in such a way as to point people to christ so that they really are found in christ well thank you very much joseph and guess what since you are a first -time questioner on iron sharpens iron you are getting a free new american standard bible compliments of the publishers of the nasb shipped out to you by cumberland valley bible book service cv bbs .com

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and this is a gorgeous edition of the nasb as a cross embossed on the cover and it is a very handy size it's not too big uh that you might find it not practical to carry with you for visitations and it's also not too small where the the print is very tiny so you can't read it it's a very perfect size i think for carrying around in a coat pocket perhaps or a briefcase or even a woman's purse or pocketbook and i hope that you have much use out of this this bible thank you so much for for contributing to the show through your question and also for listening to iron sharpens iron radio and that also reminds me that there are multitudes of baptists and baptistic christians who really act in the same way in areas where they have dominated for centuries like for instance in the bible belt of the united states and in the deep south there are many southern christians who lament that their brethren down there are assuming that their children are born again just because they're from a long line of baptists or pentecostals or whatever the denomination might be and they automatically have their children at 12 or 13 baptized as believers but the belief they are expressing uh is very spurious to say to say the least so this is this is not something that pedo baptist necessarily cornered the market on no no sure sure but uh but i i want to say you know on the back of the practical applications of adoption that uh i have uh many many wonderful uh baptist friends i look forward to sharing eternity with them and so thankful for for them and for their testimony and also um another application which i should have mentioned um of course uh the racial divide with it within our country um you know when we cry abba hope at air or abba father it's an international prayer um aramaic and greek which is representative representative of the unity of god's people the middle wall of partition being broken down between jews and gentiles in christ and if that middle wall is broken down between jews and gentiles in christ then it can be broken down between baptists and presbyterians it can be broken down between um you know different races within america and the household of god beginning to reflect the heaven to which we're headed amen and i can say uh uh very affectionately that our brother uh dr joel beaky at the puritan reform theological seminary although he is a pedo baptist has a very uh similar view if not identical view to yours regarding the necessity of viewing children as a mission field even if they are the children of christians yeah exactly exactly um we have one more question from david and ada ohio who emailed us earlier how does using the word familial expand our understanding of adoption well i think it's it's an outworking of adoption there's uh there's the adoptive act whereby the father of adopts us and then there's the adoptive state and i think both the act and the state are incorporated within that term and that's why i'm i'm an opponent of uh the change of the translation to something like the full rights of sonship in galatians 4 or romans 8 it's the word familial is one of the great outworkings of adoption because if we are adopted in christ and united to him in his sonship we are also in communion fellowship united to the entirety of the household of god and the household of god that's the language of ephesians 2 19 and it's it's so clear in the new testament that we have wonderful instructions as to how we are to relate to one another as those who are of the family of god so i think the family is the correlative idea of of adoption whereas when you're dealing with the model of the new birth in john the correlative idea is the kingdom being born into the kingdom but paul speaks about being adopted into the family or that or the household so there there are so many ramifications for uh church life arising from adoption and i think that's one of the benefits of recovering or retrieving adoption would be uh what it says about the church of jesus christ well i really uh want you to say your farewell uh to our listeners uh for now that is of course we want you to come back in the future and come back often in fact you have a book on politics that i want to discuss with you if you could give a brief teaser to whet the appetite of our listeners about that well uh maybe i was uh brave or just stupid to have written a book uh i just moved to america and unlike in britain you have to make a political choice to figure out where you're going to get your news at night and i was wrestling with this whole notion and then of course wrestling with what do i do as a preacher here in america especially someone who doesn't get the vote what do what do i say what can i say or what can i not say from a pulpit about politics and of course having a first degree in politics this this was an interest to me and so i looked at the apolitical view that you basically just preach the gospel and deal with matters of holiness and i thought that seemed too narrow and then i looked at the party political view and i thought well that seems too worldly and so i came up with this middle ground perspective what i call the biblical political view and that's the exposition of the scripture to all of life and deal with the issues throughout the year so that you're not in a rush coming up to the election cycle although the election cycle is pretty perennial in america um and and can can speak to the issues on an ongoing basis rather than just in a panic coming up to the election and do it arising from the consecutive exposition of the word and that's that's at the heart of the book appealing for the churches to engage politics as the subtitle says yet without compromise great well i'd love to interview you on that soon even though the election that we just the major election that we just had here in the united states is over four years is going to fly by like a bullet and uh the next time we're uh having a presidential race i'd like to have that interview ready in the archive to promote so if you could remain on the line when the show's over so i can schedule our next interview if you wouldn't mind that yeah sure can i just say can i just say chris how much uh a blessing it's been to be with you and uh thank you and thank the listeners i really appreciate that and that the feeling is definitely mutual uh or should i say the belief and the firm fact of that is certainly mutually accepted and uh the seventh reform church website is the number seven t h r e f dot org that's seventh spelled with the numeral seven and not the word seventh r e f dot org and don't forget about the blog from his fullness .com

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from his fullness .com and don't forget please mark your calendars for thursday the 12th of january if you are a man in ministry leadership the iron sharpens iron pastor's luncheon is coming up at the carlisle vault in carlisle pennsylvania absolutely free of charge 11 a .m

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to 2 p .m on thursday january 12th featuring our guest speaker dr tony costa of toronto baptist seminary then the following night is the next great debate that iron sharpens iron is orchestrating between dr tony costa and roman catholic theologian robertson jenis founder of catholic apologetics international the theme will be mary sinless queen of heaven or sit or sinner saved by grace at the carlisle theater another historic establishment here in carlisle dating back to the early 20th century gorgeous facility restored to its original beauty and grandeur we hope that you attend it seats 900 and we would love to pack that place out please make a trip from wherever you live to attend that event i know already we have people coming from as far away as virginia to this great debate chris arnzen at gmail .com