WORSHIP WARS?!? - Season 2 Episode 3

Guys, welcome back to the podcast, the Point Taken Christian podcast, the podcast where we make, where we take spiritual questions and chat it up.

Guys, my name is Hunter. Love being in this podcast, having a great time. To my right, this of course is brother

Andrew Built by God Cook. Welcome shoulder, everybody.

I appreciate you joining us again for the Point Taken podcast. And to his behind, and there's no sugar in it.

Obviously we have the lovely, the much loved, the famous, world famous Finnegan.

Pantsless Finnegan. Pantsless Finnegan. We will not be putting pants in the budget anytime soon.

And to my left, guys, you know him, you love him. You want some more of him. This is

Pastor Josiah Shipley. Hello everybody. Are you happy to be here?

I'm happy to be here, Andrew. Guys, we're all happy to be here. Today's going to be a really cool episode. Another wolf shirt.

That's actually a returning wolf shirt. That's right. Because it says wolves, even though there's only one. Yeah. All right. Go ahead. I dare not wear the mask one again.

Please do. Wear the mask one again, dude. That was so sad. Finnegan, you need to wear the mask one next time.

We would never do that to Finnegan. I'm sorry. Finnegan didn't have a face, so he couldn't see what he's wearing.

Don't say that. That bothers me. I'm sorry. You said that. Honestly, I'm coming to his defense. I'm coming to his defense, because had he had a face and seen that shirt, he would not have been happy.

Does he, like, cry from here? And it falls out of his fingers? No. Well, we're talking about worship today.

Today is all about worship. What's good? What isn't good? Guys, worship is a hot topic.

Worship wars. Worship wars. Worship wars. Worship will drive people to and from churches like, you know, a sale on chicken.

Church's chicken. I quit. I'm done.

Dude, nuts. Well done, man. Right? I was just like, that didn't click.

I had to explain the joke real quick. Yeah. Yeah, that's all right. Yeah. So drives a bunch of different questions when it comes to worshiping and singing songs.

Church's chicken. All right. I'm ready. Let's go. I mean, we've had people leave this church because of worship.

We've had... Well, I don't think we've really attracted anybody. No. They thought they left because of worship.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean... I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

Y 'all's music minister doesn't seem like he knows what he's talking about. Yeah. He looks like he has bad taste in wolf shirts sometimes.

No. That's a good thing. It's not me. Yeah, man. It's a point of contention because a lot of people judge a church based on music.

You know what I'm saying? And that's not really the measure of a church, but really the music, that's not really the point of it.

The point of worship music isn't to measure the validity of a church or...

To go to a rock concert. Right. Or even to go to an old fashioned...

Yeah. You know how hard that is to sing?

Like, really good. It's really hard to sing. I'm just used to Monty Python. Yeah. That's all I... I make up most of the syllables that I sing when

I do it, too. Man, you're... I hope our camera can pick up. I did smack my forehead.

That is a shiner if I've ever seen one. That's commitment to the podcast. That's commitment. Can you...

I didn't... I wanted it to pick up here. Like, where's our roaming camera? We need to get that roaming camera over there.

Oh, he's in there. Why is it roaming if he's sitting in a chair? He's lazy. He's bad at his job.

He said this is going to be like the trial run. The trial run? Wait a minute. Are you... There he is now. He's getting...

Oh, yeah. He's getting all the angles now. He's going to walk back and forth for the next hour and 20 minutes? 100%.

Well, I don't know about a whole hour and 20 minutes, but... Let's keep going back and forth. He has to... So, I guess first things first, guys, and this one's going to be quick, but I just wanted to ask our resident worship leader, minister man, what is worship?

What's the point of worship? Worship is an outpouring of praise and adoration to the

Lord, to Yahweh specifically, not to any other type of God. I've heard the statement, and I do actually love this idea, worship, you are what you worship.

So, worship is a sacrifice. One of the Psalms says, we bring the sacrifice of praise, or bring the sacrifice of praise.

Of course, and it's a song, yeah. So, when you are worshiping, it is a separation of everything around you to an outpour of praise and adoration to the

Father. You can do that through singing. You can do that through prayer. You can do that through studying.

So what's the issue that people have, if that's all it is, with the specific songs that we use?

Well, music is subjective. There's not a lot of objectivity with music.

It's funny. I was on the way here, I was listening to a comment, a reaction from the guy who wrote the song to, of a reactor reacting to the song.

I lost track about the on -reactor. So the guy who wrote the song was watching a reaction to someone listening to a song.

Okay. Okay. So it's like, if I was watching, if I was... That is what YouTube is.

He needs more of his time to write more songs. He's reacting to reactions to reactions.

That's every YouTube channel. Yeah. Everybody's reacting to reactions. But one thing that the comment, the guy who was reacting to the song.

Yeah. The guy who wrote it. No. The guy who was watching the song.

Yeah. Being watched by the guy who wrote it. Yeah. So what he was saying was... I know. What he was saying was, is he was putting emphasis on his view of what the song was, while the guy who wrote the song was saying, well,

I didn't actually write it for anything like that. I just wrote it because I thought it was cool. So music is very subjective to the person.

You pour whatever you're going through into it. Now where we fall into a problem with that is when you take what is supposed to be a song of praise and adoration is supposed to be a song that lifts up or sings about attributes of the

Father, sings about the life -changing and life -fulfilling promise of the

Holy Spirit, the death and resurrection of the Son. When you take that and you change the meaning of it to everything is about what he did for me and how good it is for me that this happened versus saying, thank you for the wondrous works that you've done, that you've put out.

So when it becomes me -centered, while you can still be saying, Jesus saved me, Jesus saved me, me, me, me, me, me, me is the...

it's almost that Jesus takes a backseat to the idea of me. Well, Jesus saved me from my sin, which is good.

That's great. That's what we want. But then you start saying, and look what all I've done with this, that, and the other.

Well, where'd Jesus go? I'm not talking about Jesus anymore. You're talking about what Jesus did. Okay, cool. Yeah. But now they're doing it, but now

I'm doing all of it. Where's the, where's the, where is it at? So and of course you have within that.

So personal preference comes into the idea of music as subjective. So I'm not a big proponent of rap music.

I know a lot of my friends are. That's cool. I don't like it. They do. Um, I don't necessarily think that it is the best type of worship music.

I would not be able to sing along. I believe in congregational singing and if a rapper were to go up on stage and rap, even if he was rapping a book of the

Bible, it'd be kind of neat to be honest, but I wouldn't be able to sing along or anything because I can't congregation, we can't all worship together.

It is a performance versus a non, a non -performer. I'm watching you.

I'm listening to you. Congregational singing. So that's your only issue when it comes to like hip hop or rap is it, it's harder to.

In the context of worship music. In the context of worship. Yeah. I have other problems with that, but.

So if like Lecrae came and sang. Well, Lecrae.

Well I mean, okay, 2008 Lecrae. It's not my personal taste.

I would not be able to enjoy it or do it like to, to enjoy that type of a concert because it's just not,

I don't like that kind of music. So there's my subjectivity. See, I'm not immune to it either. As a worship leader,

I am, hear me when I say these words, I am not immune to this. But is it acceptable?

Is it acceptable in a worship setting? I don't believe so, no. Ah, okay. So go, cause

I was wondering, is it, if it's just subjective or if it's also the objective like. Oh, is there an objectivity to it?

You can't worship to it. Some people can. I can't. I don't see how you can unless you like memorize the words.

I don't, I can't. I mean, that's the same thing with most songs. You either read it off or memorize it, right? Not necessarily.

What do you mean? It depends on how it's written. Music can be written to where it is very easily picked up.

Okay. So for instance, children's hymns, stuff that we all, Jesus loves me, this,

I know you can pick up on that. Once you, once you kind of start to hear, even the most unmusically, unmusical person can pick up on certain types of tunes.

Amazing Grace is one. It's not children's, but you can pick it up, amazing grace, how sweet, you've either heard it through repetition or you, the tune,

I'm not talking about the words, the tune you've heard through repetition, you can hum it, that kind of stuff. But at the same time, it's easier to pick up.

Like it's as an easy tune to pick up. You can, you can hum, it's an earworm, if y 'all ever heard that, it's an earworm versus someone talking really fast like this and then like putting a whole bunch of different words and then a little inflection and then cool rhythms where it's like all of this is going to, you know, that kind of thing.

That's hard. That's complex rhythm. So I'm looking at the music theory side of it. It's very hard, it's very complex.

It's very much like rhythmically driven, speaking specifically of rap now, very rhythmically driven.

It's very much like a snare drum. A snare drum has no pitch. It does have a pitch, but it's very obscure.

So this, say that back to me right now, okay, he's musically trained.

Say it back to me. Do it again. No. That was the point. Well, I mean,

I can say what he just said, okay, now do this. Yeah, that's pretty good. That one?

There's no way. He went so off beat right there. There's no way. No, that wasn't the time. Maybe we can play it back to me.

Yeah, we'll play it back. But anyway. I'm pretty sure I just got like 80 % right there. So that's what I'm saying in the context of rap music.

Now, if you have something like this, where you're going and you're, when someone's singing, my favorite, my favorite is, because we had this happen the other day at a school, when someone gets up there and sings a familiar tune.

And it's a familiar tune. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

First of all, if I'd have known about that vocal role, maybe. Maybe, maybe. But I didn't know, and you knew that I didn't know, and you're still doing it.

And see, that's, that's, not to change subjects, but The National Anthem is a good example,

I think, of a, so The National Anthem is to do what? It is supposed to inspire and to get us all rallied around the same cause as Americans.

However, one of the things that has become popular is exactly that. It is now a vocal performance.

Now it was written, back when it was written, it was written to be challenging because not everyone should sing the national anthem.

That was the intention behind it. Not everyone should be able to sing this. So it was only - I didn't know that, that's cool. Yeah, it's pretty interesting history how it came about.

And there's like six other verses. But what it comes to, yeah, I didn't know about that for a minute.

I didn't know that. What it comes to is he wrote it specifically to make it challenging. So when you hear someone sing it badly, it's hard.

I mean, that's just what it is. But we've taken it from, okay, this is something we should all strive to learn how to sing.

We're Americans, we should learn how to sing this song. To, okay, every big sporting event, we have the national anthem to sing.

Okay, you can listen to it. If not, everybody stands up. Everybody, you know, observes a moment of silence, if you will. And they may sing it, they may not.

It's really hard to follow that person if they're doing all the vocal roles, if they're doing all the arpeggios and stuff inside of the music.

You tend to notice everybody stops singing and just starts to listen at that point. Right. What the heck are you supposed to do?

If that's what you're wanting to do with the national anthem, that's great. Make it a performance. But if you want to turn into what it actually was intended to be, which is a rally call for all

Americans, then we should all be able to sing it. So, and I think that logic can be applied.

If anything, the logic for that should be pulled over from the Christian side of saying worship music, hymns, songs, hymns, spiritual songs, whatever it may be, should have the same exact focus.

We all come together, we center on the same idea, and we sing together as we unify.

That was a very well -structured argument because I was not with you until that point.

Now I understand a lot more what you're saying. So you're saying that there's a certain necessity of ease of,

I don't know, mass availability or congregational joining in, like it has to be easy or at least to a certain degree, like everybody to both learn it and to sing it.

Yeah, and that's why modern, I do believe why modern Christian, so CCM music only sticks to, and you hear this joke all the time.

Well, all you gotta do is learn four chords and you learn every song in the CCM handbook. Yeah, it's true. Because those four chords, whatever they may be, whether it be

C, F, G, and E minor, for those who do music, if it's just those four chords, you can make a song out of that, easy peasy.

Everyone's gonna recognize, oh, okay, I know where the next, it's very predictable where the next chord's gonna go because everything has a progression.

Chords have progressions, they wanna go certain directions. And you pick a melody that fits on those, but you don't make it very elaborate.

You make it maybe three to five notes. That's very easy to pick up, especially if all you're doing is a verse, a chorus.

And if you're having a good day, a bridge, to connect, quote, unquote, this is what they, this is,

I love doing this part. So verse, sing a verse about something that's leading to the chorus.

It all leads to the chorus. The chorus is the hook. Then they need it to go longer. So they're like, well, this was another idea

I had from another song. Why don't we stick that in there to actually flush it out? That's a new chorus. We're not gonna call it a new chorus.

It's gonna be a bridge that connects the chorus to the chorus again. So it's like saying another way of saying the same thing.

So, yeah. That's why it should be easy. Personally, I love bridges, so. Andrew and I have very, we have very different opinions on these things, but I always respect your, what you're saying, though.

Because, but my thing, my question is, I think there's a difference when it comes to worship music and its viability.

You have worship music on a Sunday morning. Like, put yourself in the shoes of the worship minister.

Worship leader, music minister, what did you say? Yeah, put on Andrew's shoes. And you'd say, is this song okay to pick?

Versus, there it is. Put it on for him. Versus singing along in the car on the radio.

Like, am I actually, like, is this cool to worship to? Like, what is, like, is this an actual good worship song?

So are you saying that all of the songs need to be easily learned, easily singable, and all that stuff for both of those circumstances, or just for when you're picking songs for Sunday morning?

Well, I'm gonna say that that is a huge indicator, at least for corporate worship.

Individual worship is a matter of the heart. So if I'm driving in the car, and a song comes on, like, oh man,

I love this song, and I sing along to it, I have to be careful, because if it's a song that is specifically written to be a worship song,

I need to be able to say, am I singing this for the mere enjoyment that I like singing this song, or am

I singing this because I wanna worship? I want to put myself in the mindset of worshiping. So to answer your original question, which if you'll please restate it, the one you just said, say that again.

The one I just said, so the ease of learning it and the ease of singing it, is that necessary just for picking

Sunday morning songs, or is it necessary for both worshiping to songs in private and for picking them as a music minister?

I'm gonna say that it's definitely, the pendulum swings heavier towards picking for corporate worship.

For individual worship, I think it's more on the individual than it is for me.

Like, I can't, obviously, I'm not gonna pop in your car while you're driving to work and say, hey, this isn't a worship song. That's not him.

And then jump out of the car in the middle of traffic. I'm not gonna do that. Some people may think

I do that. You see it? Yeah, I can definitely see that stopping at a red light, like on Highway 64 and just seeing him running up to the car.

Just like, what is this garbage? Turn it off. I'd be in much better shape. Maybe I should just do that. But no, so as a music minister, yes.

Ease of singing is definitely something I think of and definitely wanna put into play.

But individually, I mean, I have to examine myself where I am at that moment.

Okay. How do I interpret, how do I take this song and do I apply it to worshiping or do

I apply it to, I just wanna sing it because it's fun. And I think that self -examination is necessary both for when you're in your car or by yourself or whatever and during corporate,

I can't speak. Corporate worship. Church's chicken. Church's chicken.

Yeah, you have to have that self -evaluation. Just like, what am I doing this for? Like, am I doing this because it's fun?

Am I doing this because this is what everybody else is doing? Am I doing this because I enjoy the music? Because if it becomes because I enjoy the music, the second you don't enjoy the music, you're no longer gonna do anything and you're just gonna complain and cry.

And quite honestly, there's times for everybody where a song is gonna play and it's like, that's not my cup of tea.

But if you can't worship God during that song, then you have switched your perspective from I'm doing this to worship

God to I'm doing this to relate to the music. And that's cool.

Relating to the music is not an issue. Relating to the music is awesome. Relating to music is what, I mean, God made music.

Music is a language. Music is like to provoke a reaction. That's the entire point.

And when we sing it to God, it is to provoke a reaction. Just not from us.

Not to mention God sings. Right, he does it in his own self. So that's what I'm saying is that, man, when you enjoy music for you, that's awesome.

And you can feel that emotion and you can be led to do these things and you can pour whatever you're dealing with into those songs, worship or not, however.

But when you worship, that's part of the sacrifice is worship is anything you do in obedience to God. And that's what

I tell the youth when I ask them, what's worship? I'll say anything you do in obedience to God. Praise is when you do it with music, right?

Well, if worship is anything I do in obedience to God, then being obedient to God is to sacrifice my own self.

Right, he said to take up your cross and follow me daily. And if loving is sacrifice, I'm trying to show God love.

Then instead of letting my own self be affected by this music, I am trying to drive that affection towards him.

And I'm trying to do that for him. So when I say, well, this song kind of sucks, that might be true subjectively, or even objectively if it's just a terrible song, but it's not really about how you feel about it in that moment, right?

It's about because your priority has to be, I am trying to do this to please

God, right? And in that, as a music minister, we'd want to pick something that is good and that we want because that we think it's good and that we think sounds good.

And the lyrics are in line with what is true and what is upbringing, right?

But at the end of the day, you can't let a bad melody stop you from praising

God. To kind of jump on the point you made about emotionally getting into,

I wanted to swing over to Pastor Sia. I'm ready. SOG.

You want to do a plug about SOG real quick before I ask you your question? Ask the question, then I'll do the plug and answer the question at the same time.

Okay, so in SOG, you fight for the mic. That's the whole purpose of the fight, is you get the microphone and you get to spread the gospel to people that may or may not have ever heard it or want to hear it.

When you're gearing up, when you're walking out for your fight, do they have music playing?

Yes. Typically it's music that the person who's walking out has picked. Oh, yeah. So that gets them emotionally prepared to fight.

Yes. So I guess my question is, can a Christian song, a

Christian worship song, do that for a person if they let it? Yes.

In what context? Ready for a fight or ready for? There's, that's what I'm, yeah, that's what

I'm going for. Okay. I'm just going off the emotion aspect of things. Yeah, I would say, there's a lot

I could say there. First off, yes, SOG, Soldiers' God MMA is the MMA ministry we do at this church where we train young men and women, make smart sharks, train them to, well, some of them are there just to get in shape, some are there for the camaraderie, some are there for self -discipline, some are there to train to fight.

And we've got a fight for, I can't remember if it's June or July, but we have a fight coming up where one of our young guys is going to have his first fight.

And I used to do that for a while. I would say that, and if I could jump on what you were saying earlier.

Yeah. What Hunter just said is worship, it's not just singing. Worship is that what you do in obedience to God.

With that being said, emotions have zero to do with that.

They can be a by -product of obedience, but not the cause or resource of it.

So anyone who's hoping for that emotional feeling that doesn't come while you're worshiping, worship is obedience even if you don't feel like it.

In fact, I would say that's probably a bigger sign that you're obeying is if you don't feel like it and do it anyway.

As far as when you said, can a Christian song, I would push back and ask, what do we mean by a

Christian song? I have a definition of that. Does that mean a Christian wrote a song? Does that mean the lyrics are in line with Christian doctrine?

For example, there are a lot of songs that play on the radio that I love.

Doesn't mean I love every line in that song, but I'm not going to let the one line, unless it is heretical, deter me from listening to that song.

I can think of an example right now. I bet it's going to be in this list already.

Well, you know what, then I'm not going to do that because I'll let you do that. But Paul said, some preach

Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely, seeking to cause me anxiety in my imprisonment. But what does it matter?

Just that in every way, if Christ is being proclaimed, then I'll rejoice. So long as the actual

Christ is being proclaimed, and there's probably the kicker right there. So long as the actual Christ is being proclaimed.

When it comes to walkout songs, I did a lot of songs.

And yeah, it's more for emotionally getting you ready for a fight. That's more of the purpose of it.

That should not be the same tool Andrew or any worship leader uses for choosing corporate worship on Sunday mornings on what gets people emotionally charged to make a decision.

That's a load of crap. That should not be the, that's two separate things. If you're viewing those the same things, that should tell you something about you as a music minister.

Thank God we have music leaders and brother Andrew here, but do not do that. Because it is not about the emotional charge up to make a decision for God.

That's what a walkout song is for. That's not what worship is for. So can a song get you emotionally charged up for that?

Sure. But if that's the case, if that's the case, then using it for a different purpose than what we should be using

Sunday mornings for. Yeah. And I'll say back when I first started, that was my gauge was how was the feeling in the room when we were done?

As I have grown and as I have learned more, I'm just gonna use,

I've learned more than I used to back when I first started. The worship time, which we have assigned on a

Sunday morning. Yeah, and Matt, even that phraseology, like I like here that we call it praise and worship because the entire service should be worship.

If worship is obeying God, the entire service, including the offering, including the fellowship, that's a command of God, including the invitational.

Including the study of his word during the sermon. If you can't worship learning his word, then you're not learning his word.

That's why Andrew calls it praise and worship because we're specifically talking about with the mouth praise, right?

Like you said earlier, I didn't mean to. No, you're fine. But that's what something

I appreciate about Andrew is he doesn't try to rile it up with emotions and just because motivational speakers do the same thing and some of them call themselves pastors and preachers.

Listen, the greatest sermon ever preached, the Sermon on the

Mountain, was preached by the greatest preacher to ever exist, Jesus Christ. At the end of that sermon, zero people got saved.

Greatest preacher, greatest sermon, zero conversions. It says people were astonished, that's all it says.

Not because it was not a good sermon, but because a good sermon is not determined by the outcome of Peter gets up,

Peter gets up a few years later and says, you're all a bunch of godless scum, you crucified the source of life, repent now or be damned.

And then Pentecost, 3 ,000 people get saved, right? So that,

I mean, that's, cause it's a working of the spirit, not of emotions. Right. So back to relegate.

So most, at least in America, we have relegated our services to what, two and a half hours on a

Sunday morning. And then if you're lucky, you have a Sunday night service. And we've relegated it to that.

So what my new goal as the minister here is I want you as a congregation member, as a family member to walk away with a song that may help you remember scripture.

That's why - Pair it with scripture. We always pair it with scripture.

Like we read Romans or Isaiah before we, yeah. And then the last song, I will enter his gates with thanksgiving in my heart.

I will enter his courts with praise. That's scripture. That's the Psalm. And if you can walk out saying, he has made me glad.

Just remember that throughout the week when you're having the roughest week and you go, ah, I will enter his courts with thanksgiving.

I need to do better about saying where it is. I think it's Psalm 95. I'm probably wrong, but that's my new goal is scripture should always be the cornerstone of how you worship, what songs you worship with.

Like this morning, we read Ephesians one. It says that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened. And then we sing open the eyes of my heart,

Lord. Or, you know, I love that. Yeah. All right. Well, let's go on to this question.

Let's get some specific examples, bro. Oh yeah. So the question was, how do we decide when worship music is okay to sing to?

And for this, I've prepared. Don't you love we're already classifying it as worship music. It could be that or it could, yeah.

It could be anything. I have prepared a little game for the guys. Let's go, man.

What we're going to do. Come on, man, let's go. I have printed here. I hope we don't agree. Death will come swiftly. I'm excited.

I certainly hope that we don't agree. We're not going to. Because I want some. And your point will not be taken because yours is going to suck.

All right, let's go. Whatever it is. I have lyrics printed here on these papers. I'm going to read some of them.

Some of them, I have the whole song. Some of them, I have just the controversial parts.

Is he about to read the whole song? No, no. It's just poetry. Yeah, it's just poetry at that point.

But this first song, and should we say this? Let me preface it with this.

Because the first question you kind of answered, but we didn't really say is, should we listen to worship by non -Christians?

That's the first little thing that I had down here. And when you said the Bible verse, it was the answer to the question that I had.

My B, bro. Yeah, no, no, you were doing well. Is that Paul said it doesn't really matter how it's getting out there, just that it's getting out there.

I didn't love how Paul was getting chided by the gospel. Like, people were preaching a gospel that was contrary to the actual gospel, and they're doing it in spite of, like, to spite him.

Yeah, well, there's two different. It's the gospel. There's when they preach the real gospel, but they have a hard heart.

They have a hard heart, but they're preaching the real gospel. He goes, you know what? They're preaching the real gospel. Hey, thanks, bro. But then, when they preach the wrong gospel, he says in Galatians 1, and do not pardon my language, because it's in the

Bible, he says, let them be damned. Yeah. So there's the line. It's what's coming out of their mouth.

The real gospel or a fake one. I'm sorry, I just, I have this middle image of some guy going, Jesus loves you.

I just, I can't get that out of my head. So great in his teeth, just angry, like,

Jesus loves you so much, he died for you. You suck. He was resurrected on the third day.

He has ascended, and he's Lord. Now, what are you going to do about it? I'm going to sit here and be upset about it.

I like that idea. I don't feel like that's a very common thing to happen.

No, well, you said, chided, and I was like, oh, well, that means they're doing it in spite of him.

Okay. But with all that in mind, you know, my initial reaction when a obvious non -Christian sings a

Christian song. Go ahead and say the example. Has stopped, has stopped being, oh, what the heck, and just not listening.

It is now then, well, instead of looking at the person singing it, let's see what they're singing, right?

So Nicki Minaj. There we go. Our first example. She is part of a worship song with Tasha Cobbs and Nicki Minaj features on it.

It's called, I'm Getting Ready. And this time I am going to read the whole feature. Just, just Nicki Minaj's part.

And what are we supposed, are we supposed to respond? Yeah, once I'm done reading it. Once you're done, what are we responding?

We're responding, here are the parameters. Is this a worship song that you would sing on a

Sunday? Is it a worship song that you would sing by yourself? Is it a worship song at all?

Okay. And wait until you're done to say anything. Yeah, and I want an answer for all three. Got it. Okay, I'm ready.

Of course, if it's an answer to no to three, it'll be an answer to no to one and two also, right? It's possible. No, no, no.

Oh wait, to three, yeah. Yeah. I think we need to switch it. Is it a worship song at all? And then the other two.

And then the other two. Okay. Cool. Fingers. I'll put in a sound effect there. All right.

So, I'm sorry, I'm going to try and get to this. Yo, Ayo. That doesn't disqualify it yet.

I know. That was Psalm 151. I know, especially after. That's a Spanish word. Psalm 151.

By the way, for you that don't know, there's no Psalm 151. All right, go. All right,

Beach House Vibes, Maneuver the Jet Ski. This is a worship song, hold on.

Beach House Vibes, Maneuver the Jet Ski. Cause, cause, I serve the God that parted the

Red Sea. Bars, bars. Multi -million dollars commercials for Pepsi. From food stamps to more ice than Gretzky.

Okay. Hold on, we're not even halfway done. Oh no, I'm just. We're dropping them. I'm putting it in my,

I'm trying to visualize the words. Listen, Andrew, I don't gotta talk, the Lord defends me. I watch them all fall for going against me.

Cause me and all my angels shot the devil up. Which, honestly, that's a huge dub for humanity.

It's like, thank you, first of all, to you and all your homies. Cause devil was not a good dude.

While you was trying to pull me down, I leveled up. I leveled up twice. I leveled up three times.

He tapped him and told him, she's mine. So even when I cried, I knew

I'd be fine. Prepare for a miracle blessing in these times. Now praise him, raise him, name it, claim it.

Every tongue that rises up against me, shame it. I breathe success in and out of my lungs.

I got the power of life and death coming out of my tongue. You gotta move a little bit with that.

Say it again, saying it's all, it's about, now somebody raise it. Which, that didn't really make sense, but none of it did.

What was the question for all that? Is that a worship song? No, but you can go ahead and move it, no.

But hang on, let me see that. Well, because I was initially asked, I was like, hey, hey, is it cool that Nicki Minaj, you know, she does this feature on a worship song and immediately

I thought, you know, and this is where I was actually incorrect. Even though I was proven topically correct, the reason

I was correct was incorrect. I said, heck no, it's not right because she is not even close to saved.

Like she's not even around it. Like she's particularly like everything that's not saved is what she loves.

Well, I was like, okay, let's listen to the song. Let's see what they're saying.

And boy, boy, when she opened up with beach house vibes, she said multi -million dollars for Pepsi.

I said, how many times does she say me? Can you count it? Can you count how many times she says me?

And then she brags about what she has, what she does. And then they said, every tongue that rises against me, shame it because it says,

God does this, God does this. Yeah, like raise them, praise them, do all this. But any tongue that rises against me, shame it.

And he's like, bro, like what? Like right now you're talking like God is your superpower, like your alter ego that comes out and beats everybody up.

Like JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, you know, they have the, you have your super powered guy.

So her 10 times a reference of a deity is.

That's so true, a reference of a deity. I love how he says that.

When he gets salty about music. Oh man, it is so fun. Four, it's four, four of a deity.

Now, the reason I say a deity is because Jesus is not explicit, Jesus, God, Yahweh, Holy Spirit, none of those are explicitly referenced.

So I could be talking about Baal, I could be talking about any Buddhism. The God described in that passage is not found in the

Bible, so. Correct. Yeah, okay, so I have some questions. Sure. Number one, what on this earth is

Beach House vibes? That's what I need to figure out first. I want to understand. She's partying, she's having a good time.

Because her burdens, hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm actually about to explain this to you. Her burdens have been lifted.

Is that? She's been enlightened, she's chilling now because she's on Beach House, but not physically, although she might have been,

I don't know. Spiritually, emotionally, she's at the beach.

So she's at the Beach House, she's getting vibes. Those are the vibes, as if she were, because she's so relaxed.

Now, I just want to preface this. Whenever I do get hot about this kind of stuff or get, what did you say, salty about it?

When I get salty about stuff, I don't just get mad and then not do anything about it. I want to actually try to understand.

So let me, I'm going to androize this for just a second. So, Beach House, feeling good, feeling good, because I have a jet ski.

I serve the God, okay? The part of the Red Sea. So that is the most specific thing you can say.

Right, except, so otherwise she's saying Abraham's God. Okay, here we go.

Multi -million dollar commercials for Pepsi. So that means she's praising, at least this is what

I'm trying to understand. She's praising God for the multi -million dollars that she's made from Pepsi.

No, actually, go to the next line. I think that's what it's referencing. Then she's talking about where she came from. She was on food stamps and then she has more ice.

Ice than Gretzky. She bought an ice machine? Now stop, because you know better. Yeah, I know. All right, okay, so that's jewelry.

I don't know who Gretzky is. He's a hockey player. Wayne Gretzky. Hockey player, hockey, ice, yeah. Oh, I don't care.

Okay, I don't. I don't know the reason. Oh, I don't care. This is

Salty Music Andrew. Best for top, top three. My answer was no, so we can move on to the next one.

Top three versions of Andrew. Built by God Andrew. The Punch is Josiah in the

Face. Pandrew. Pandrew, then Salty Music Andrew. Those are top three, not in that order.

Okay, I don't gotta. Oh my goodness. I don't gotta talk, the

Lord defends me. So there should be a comma there. Okay. The Lord does not defend her. The Lord does not defend you.

Read Micah, the Lord will not defend her. I watched them all fall for going against me. That's kind of like David, but not really even close.

Cause, because. Cause, cause. Because me and all my angels shot the devil up.

Okay, all right, so let's end it there. Because we gotta move on and the answer is no.

Because we could continue with that for a long time. Okay. But she said she shot the devil up, and that's.

That's interesting. That's the best part about it. My question is what angels, the ones that followed the devil down? We don't need that question.

I'm wondering what angels, because I don't know what angels would, you know, cause God planned to shoot the devil up.

Also, Jesus will be killing him in Revelation, so. Right, right, or throwing him in, yeah. But I mean,

I appreciate the work that she's done in the meantime. You know, I don't know if he has to heal or. She said, she popped him in the kneecap.

He said, stop moving. We're gonna get, we're gonna get, we're gonna get comments in here saying, y 'all are just a whole bunch of hypocritical people making fun of that.

No, we just, we just actually believe the Bible. Yeah, I am a hater when it comes to that. Now, I'll be a hundred percent honest.

I'm a hater when it comes to that, but darn it, that was fun. That was funny. That was fun. She sure did shoot the devil up, and Nicki Minaj, we thank you.

Hey, you know what, you know what? Don't say at least. There's no at least to that crap. At least it's over and we can move on.

Oh! That's good, okay. Now this one, this one's gonna be a little bit different.

This one is a song called You Say by Lauren Daigle. Oh boy. I think it's Lauren Daigle, right?

Yay, this is right up my alley. Okay, so. You're coming to salt and bitterness. I'm excited.

If you treat this with the same amount of salt and bitterness as that. There's gonna be a difference. But all right, hold on, hold on.

Don't try and calm down to saltiness, because it's the best part of my day. All right, so listen to this.

Remember our rules here is, is it a worship song? Would you pick it to sing on a

Sunday morning? And or would you sing it alone? Other way around.

Worship song, alone, Sunday morning. Sure, I don't care. I don't care in what order, so long as it's a worship song.

Okay, I keep finding voices in my mind that say I'm not enough. Every single lie that tells me

I will never measure up. I am more than just the sum of every high and every low. Remind me once again just who

I am, because I need to know. Oh, whoa. You say I am loved when

I can't feel a thing. You say I am strong when I think I am weak. And you say I am held when

I am falling short. And when I don't belong, oh, you say I am yours. I believe, I believe what you say of me,

I believe. And I won't read the rest, because the rest is basically the same thing.

Read the chorus real quick. You say I am loved when I can't feel a thing. Oh, that was the chorus, okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. You say I am loved. Can I see that for just a minute? Yeah. Okay. I'm not gonna do the same thing.

Okay, you're not gonna do the same thing. So I want to start with Pastor Josiah on this one and let the salt just like build on that side of the table.

So let me just reiterate. The question is not, would I reword a thing or two?

The question is, that's not the question. The question is - Well, I mean, that can be a topic, but the question is, is it a worship song?

Okay. First question. Yes. Okay. Do you want to defend that answer or move on to the second?

Both. The second one is, would I listen to that song and praise God for it? Right? Yeah.

Yes, and I do. That one's actually on my phone. Okay. And three, if you were the music minister, would that be a good song to pick?

Probably not. Okay. Probably not. There are just better options.

Yeah. I mean, there's just better options, even by that writer. There's just better options to sing corporately as we are all supposed to be on one mind thinking about God.

There are just better options. So, no, probably not for number three. For the first two, yeah. And that's the only reason is that there are better options.

That's not necessarily wrong or bad. I'm just asking. Because there's a line in that song. Can I see the other line?

It's not the part you just read. See, like, this is, to me, the most worshiping lines of a song is right here.

What's it say? In you I find my worth, in you I find my identity. In other words, in and of myself,

I am nothing. It's only in you, right? Taking all I have, laying it at your feet, you'll have every failure,

God, you'll have every victory. The reason why I would probably not do it on a

Sunday morning is because there are, yes, the only answer is there are way better options, and that is not, even though that serves a purpose,

I don't think it would meet the needs of our congregation in explaining and describing who God is and what he does.

But yes, I think it's a worship song, and I would listen to it personally. Respect. All right, the salt mines have been opened.

Okay, so first, so let's structure it. First question, is it a worship song?

No. Okay, second, and I knew that answer. I knew, I know very much his opinion on this song specifically.

Y 'all already talked about this one without me? We did, because when I, this is fun, because when I was first starting out as a worship minister and leader and stuff, that song was just like brand new, right?

Well, actually, I'd probably been doing it for a little while, but I hadn't done it in big church or whatever.

And so I went up to him and I was just like, what do you think of this song? Because everybody loved that song. And I wasn't really thinking correctly, because I still knew -ish.

And he was just like, and I'm gonna let you say your reasoning, but I know very much his opinion on it, and I took his opinion on it, because I ended up agreeing.

He didn't say point taken in my opinion, so we'll see. I agree with, I agree at least partially.

All right, go ahead. Okay, is it a worship song? No. Do I think an individual person could worship to it, potentially,

I guess? No. No, they can. They can be mutually exclusive. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Let him finish his -

All right, go ahead. They can be mutually exclusive. Worship for corporate, absolutely not. All right.

Here's my reasoning. One, I can replace you with anybody. Mama says

I am loved when I can't feel a thing. Okay, cool. That's 100 % true. Mom can say it. Mom can say

I'm strong, and you say I am hell, Is there any part in that song where you feel like it wouldn't make sense to replace it?

You'll have every failure, God? You'll have every victory? That's it. Okay. One line out of this entire song, I can say

Christian. Okay. However, I will caveat that by saying this. The reason

I say that an individual could is because their focus is not on anything other than you being

God. Okay. You being Galway. I have problems when things are super vague, like this.

This is the definition of the word vague. Okay. There is no explicit Jesus. There is no explicit

Holy Spirit. God is mentioned one time in this four to five minute long song. Hence why it was put on more than just Christian radio.

Which at first I thought was a dub. I thought that was a win. I said, oh, cool, Christian song. But then when you made that point,

I was like, oh, they're not thinking of it in the same lens as I am. And see, there's a thing about separating the artist from the art.

And I try my best to do that. But when you see the path that this particular writer has gone down,

I'm sorry, this is not a Christian song. There you go. I love it.

And I love it every time. And the amount I love it never diminishes or dwindles.

Like it's one of the most consistent loves. All right. It's me dogging on Oprah Dangle.

And well, yeah. And when I had asked Andrew, you know, as just a budding music guy,

I was like, hey, you know, here's my set list or whatever for this upcoming Sunday. He says, you have you say on here.

I said, I sure do. Everybody loves that song. People are going to enjoy seeing it. He's just like, yeah, but like how many times does it say

I? And it said instead of God or whatever. And so it's like the entire thing is you say,

I am loved when I can't feel a thing. So like you read these and for every you, there's two I's.

You say, I am loved when I can't feel a thing. You say, I am strong when I think

I am weak. That's three. And you say, I am held when I am falling short. And when

I don't belong, oh, you say, I am yours. And I believe, I believe. That is a great K -Love song.

Positive, encouraging K -Love. For sure. Perfect. Because it has nothing to do with God. It's all about you say this, but it's actually this.

That's a motivational speech. That's a Joel Steen speech right there. And so that's why I say I agree with him partially in that I would say it is a worship song.

I would say I would not choose it for Sunday morning service, but I do believe people can worship to it.

And I believe that it's more about your, like how, yeah, your mindset.

Because if my mindset is understanding that this song, the way it was written has a lot of me focus, me focus, me focus.

But you say, okay, it doesn't really matter exactly how these lyrics are written out canonically.

It's more about how you're trying to say it. Then that's a whole different thing.

So I wouldn't sing it on a Sunday morning, but I can definitely worship God to this because it's more about focusing on the you instead of the

I. Sure. It's more about, but looking at it through the salt glass island,

I have been a little poisoned to it because I've been saying just like, all I can see is I. I am loved.

I can't feel a thing. I am strong. I am weak. I am held when I'm falling short. However, the message to the song, what's trying to be conveyed,

I think is super cool. And so I think it's totally a great Caleb song. It's a great

Caleb song. It's totally a great Caleb song. Great Caleb song. Is it a Sunday morning song? No, but I would still say that it's a worship song.

I would too. I would disagree, but that's okay. Point's not taken because I'm still right, but whatever, it's fine. Now, you know that you couldn't be consistent with that position about I, because you'd have to throw some of the

Psalms out in the Bible because some of the Psalms, Lord, I feel this, my enemies are after me.

But I'll fight your point on this. You give David credit because he's

David. No, I'm not even giving David credit because he's David. Who does he always turn back to? God. Right, that didn't.

They had one line, yeah. They explicitly did not go back. But that's just the point when he was talking about corporate worship, it needs to be this, it needs to be that, it needs to be that.

That has changed my whole mindset on corporate worship in that, oh, this needs to be

God -centric. I need to be talking to God. I just, I can't imagine myself shifting your opinion on something.

Really? I never thought I could do that. You've changed my mind before. Is it because I'm unhumble?

No. Have I been too prideful? No, it's just, it's more me than anything else. Yeah, it's not you.

You have a lot of wisdom to give. Okay. I value your opinion. I've sent my friends to you for advice.

You have? I sure have. And I never heard from them, so. They took it. They did? Really? Yeah. Oh, okay.

Then they told me about it, I said, how'd it go? And he said, well, he said this and this and this. Oh. Yeah. See, you have a lot of wisdom to give.

I guess. Self -deprecation in this room? No, thank you. Never. Just like that song. Let's talk about this song.

What's this one? All right, we ready for this one? We don't know, you haven't said it yet. Well, get ready for it.

This song is called, So Will I. Oh, yeah. And I'm not gonna sing this whole song.

I mean, read this whole song. I hope not. I'm already prepped for this one. I'm not gonna read this whole song. See, I need to reread it, because I haven't heard it before.

I'm already prepped for this one. But this is, I don't know, second verse or maybe third verse. It depends on how they split the first part up.

As you speak. You're gonna be surprised at my answer on this one. Is that right? Oh, we might disagree.

Okay. And as you speak, a hundred billion creatures catch your breath, evolving in the pursuit of what you said.

Oh, no. If it all reveals your nature, so will I. I can see your heart in everything you say, every painted sky, a canvas of your grace.

If creation still obeys you, so will I. That last line is beautiful. Oh, yeah, that's incredible.

But the first line, and as you speak, a hundred billion creatures catch your breath, evolving in pursuit of what you said.

It is down here. Yeah, this is one of the songs I had in mind earlier when I said, yeah.

So I'm gonna have to add a fourth category to answer this one. Okay, I'm ready to hear it. This is one of the most listened to songs that I listened to.

Yeah. Like, you know when they do like every December or whatever? Yeah, the playbacks, the recap. Yeah, if everything exists to lift you high, then so will

I. Now think about that sentence. Now, I don't care if the people who sang this believe that. That is a true sentence. Correct.

Everything exists to lift him high. Yeah. And I mean everything. Yep, yeah. Everything exists to him.

If the wind goes where you send it, so will I. Yeah. If the rocks cry out in silence, so will

I. If the psalm of all of our praises still falls shy, then we'll sing it again a hundred million times.

You know, in other words, it is, if the star - It's a beautifully beautiful song. If the stars were made to worship, then so will

I. If the mountains bow down in reverence to you, then so will I. If the ocean - Written by a cult. Right, and so like -

Say that into the mic, it's true. So - Written by a cult. Without a doubt. Without a doubt.

So, this one is tougher and here's why. Is the question, would

I tell someone else to listen to the song? The answer would be no. Right. Is the question, is the question that I make sure when there are immature

Christians in the room and this song is playing, to make sure I outspokenly speak out against that specific line right there.

They're evolving in pursuit of what - No, they're obeying what he said. They're not evolving in pursuit. If the question is, if I am on my way to work, while I skip to the end of the song, those last eight lines, in order to get my mind ready to obey

God no matter what comes forward, the answer is yes. Yeah. Does that make sense? I mean, there's my thing.

In other words, I am uninterested in the cult that wrote this and their bull crap beliefs about how

God created the world and then they say he created it and then they change it at the end. But if you're asking me if those

English words right there are God edifying at the bottom right here, the answer is yes.

The stars were made to worship. Everything exists to lift them high. So the answer is, would this be played on Sunday morning?

Absolutely not, unless we change those words. Correct. And that's literally what

I've done. If we change those words, then absolutely, because the rest of the song is spot on. I still haven't played that song yet, but I have written like three different lines to replace that.

Now let me go one more. Knowing who this is, would

I go to that school or that concert? No. Correct. Right, we could get into that later.

The answer to that is no. Would I want Andrew or Hunter singing this on Sunday morning?

So if I'm the pastor and they come to me and say, can I sing this Sunday morning? I would say, if those words are changed, then yes.

We actually might be on the same page here, but that would be my thing. Other than that, that doesn't need to come up.

I was wondering what you thought I would disagree with on that. No, I thought you might be surprised about me listening to it, but telling someone else.

No, I already knew it was on your playlist. And I don't want an immature Christian thinking that that is biblical.

Correct. Right, that's the thing. If it's gonna make somebody stumble. I mean, that's, yeah.

If eating meat makes your brother stumble, then don't eat the meat. Right, eat meat all for yourselves. So, I don't, that's how

I would answer that one. If that's changed, sure. But again, that's separating it from the cult

I know is attached to it. All right, hold on.

Let me real quick skim this. Worship song, for the most part, yes.

That's what I'm saying, for the most part. There's a restatement of the creation story, basically.

That's what this song is meant to be. The lines in question, there's two fallacies with it.

One, a hundred billion creatures catch your breath. He only breathed in the two creatures. And then the second one is evolving.

God did not use evolution. Oh, yeah, absolutely he did not, by the way.

There is one more line in that song, and I wanna show the difference just to show that we're not being partial. Okay, go ahead.

That line right there is heretical. Which one? The evolving in pursuit of what you said all that stuff, right?

The last line of the song, I don't agree with, but it's not intentionally heretical. So it says something like, he died for us, and he would again a hundred billion times.

Well, no, he wouldn't. Because he wouldn't need to. Please tell me that one's coming. No, it's that song.

No, that's that song. The one that I just got a mental image of is Reckless Love coming?

Oh, yeah, it's two from now on. So, like, that's not true.

He would not a hundred million times. The intention of the song, I know, is not to say that he's needed to die a bunch.

I know that. Yeah, no, no, no, no. But that's one I'm like, oh, we could do without that. I'll give you another example.

Like a rose trampled on the ground, he took the fall and thought of me above all. Well, that's not true. He didn't think about you above everything and everyone.

Like, I can't think of the name of the song, but. Above All. Oh, is that it?

Above all power. Yeah, he took the fall. That's not true. Love that song. Would, oh, me too.

Would that make me tell everyone, don't ever listen to that? No. No. That's just not accurate.

Yeah, because the intention is still, you know, he was doing it for our sake. Yeah, of course. It's just.

When we talk about the me -centric stuff, and there's a point, I'll give you an older one that's too me -centric.

I think Andrew and I have talked about this one. That's way too me -centric for me. And he walks with me, and he talks with me, and he tells me my

Amazon, and the joy we share as we tear there, none other will ever know. Yeah. Okay, so only you can know the peace of God.

Literally just you, bro. Only you. I don't know the name of that writer. Oh, no.

But he could not have. I just, I can't think in my heart that he actually meant to convey that, but I don't know what else you're trying to convey.

Well, it might be that nobody that doesn't walk and talk with God. I'll come to the garden alone. Yeah, yeah.

I'll come, all I know is Randy Travis version. Oh, to the garden alone. All right, let's move to the next one so we can get through a couple more, okay?

So this one is called Ready or Not. Okay, this one was shared by an old podcast friend,

Cecil. All right, you ready? Listen to this. There's no place like his presence.

There's no time like the now. Okay. Every one, two, or three of us count him in here and now.

He welcomes the broken. Or two or three gathered. I just realized what he's trying to say. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he welcomes the broken.

He's all right with your past. He's not mad at any one of us. Okay. But he waits with open arms.

Okay, all right. Says, come, are you ready? Are you ready? All right, we started all right. That's how it always is, man.

That's completely false. Here, I'll give you the salt if you want. He's all right with your past. He's not mad at any one of us.

Okay, I can take the salt if you want this time. Go. Take the salt. Yeah, that's a loaded bull. If he loved you and was all right with your past, he wouldn't have bled for it.

He died for it because he loved you enough to change you, not to leave you where you're at. And that's, that's, that's.

And he, he's not just mad. He is restful. A stray fury.

Yeah, he's enraged against sin. He's going to destroy the world with fire. He, he, in other words.

Okay, let me, let me try it this way. If who?

All right. If Ava spills milk and I say, hey baby, it's not that big of a deal.

Did I show her mercy? Not really. Cause it didn't really matter. Cause she didn't do anything bad. If Ava, if Rachel tells her to do something and she says, screw you mom.

She did. And I say, hey baby, it's not that big of a deal. Wrath is what makes mercy so merciful.

Right. Justice. If it, if there was no justice, then we wouldn't ever view it as mercy.

He is enraged. He abhors sin. That's why it's so beautiful.

He shows mercy. Yeah. That's, that's hogwash. Go ahead, Andrew. Yeah. I was just, that's the one thing everybody seems to forget about.

Cease did that one? Yeah. That seems to be the one thing every single modern Christian forgets is there is a penalty and something has to be paid for.

Justice is God's justice is simply putting things back the way they should be.

Equal scales. Equal scales. If you believe that God loves, and he does, loves you, but doesn't care about what you've done in the past or doesn't care what you're doing currently.

Then you don't know how much he loves you. Right, right. Because he loves you. The point is that he forgives you.

No. That's the thing people keep thinking. Oh, well God's tolerant. Toleration versus forgiveness. He is not tolerant. He's more loving than that.

He's forgiving. Right. He's forgiving because he hates sin. And that does not mean, just because he forgives you does not mean that you are free from the consequences of your sin.

Look at David. Look at David. David had a, we talked about it. David raped a woman, potentially.

He murdered somebody. And killed someone. Like I said, potentially. And not inadvertently. Allegedly. See season one?

See season one. And what did God do? He turned both his sons against him.

Had one son kill the other son and then killed the new child. Yep. Sure did. Because that was just.

And it doesn't mean he didn't forgive him. It means there's consequences to sin. Right, he even said, I forgive you, but this is what's about to happen to you.

Yeah. Tough luck, kill. Like that's literally what it was. All right then, ready or not.

No, no, and no. And you know, we heard. Ready or not, but that song's not on top. We heard that song at Passion 2020

Corporate Worship. That was your first problem. That was Corporate Worship. That song was? It sure was. We were in Mercedes Benz Stadium.

All right, next topic. And we said, we were singing, we said, Mm -hmm. We said, let your eyes go up a little bit like.

That doesn't sound right. I know some of the speakers that were there and I'm sure their eyes probably went up when they saw that song.

So this one is one that Andrew and I disagree with. That means I go first because I don't know which side either of y 'all are on.

Okay, that's fine. All right. This song is called Reckless Love. You ready? Before I spoke a word, you were singing over me.

You have been so, so good to me. Before I took a breath, you breathed your life in me. You have been so, so kind to me.

Oh, the overwhelming, never -ending, reckless love of God. Oh, it chases me down, fights till I'm found, leaves the 99.

I couldn't earn it. I don't deserve it. Still, you give yourself away. Oh, the overwhelming, never -ending, reckless love of God.

Yay. And it's not actually yay, but it just rhymes better. So the controversial part is, should we call

God's love reckless? No. No. But, okay,

I do know this song. Every other lyric of a song is spot on.

So the word reckless is just odd because it doesn't flow with the song. Before I spoke a word, you were singing over me.

That's Zephaniah 317. He mentioned it earlier. That's the Bible. He breathed his life. Before I took a breath, you breathed your life into me.

Right? Yeah. I mean, so that's not just a creation, and that's how we get saved.

Before we ever took a breath, he chased me down, John 10, leaves the 99.

Yeah, Good Shepherd, get all that. The point that the rest, it's like the point the rest of the words are trying to say is that it's not reckless, it's purposeful.

So it's kind of like, I don't understand why you would choose that word that doesn't flow with the rest of the song.

So let's start over. Okay, I do know this song, and I love most of the lyrics of this song.

This one might sound goofy. When I sing this song, I change that word to myself. Reckless?

Yeah, I do. I change the word to myself. I don't say the word reckless there. I say, it doesn't rhyme, but I say purposeful.

It's not in camera. Oh yeah, but okay, I'm in the car by myself. I answered one question.

Actually, it's answers two so far. You do believe it's a worship song. Well, no,

I can't make that determination. You said in the car, so you would say this is an individual worship song.

Yeah, the title of the song has to change though, because I don't even like the title of the song. Which is the same thing as the chorus. Right, which is why

I don't, yeah, that is not true. That's what I'm trying to say. It's not true to say

God's love is reckless. He's in total control of it, so it's not reckless. That's just not true. If you, now someone could take out a thesaurus and spend 40 minutes telling you what the writer actually means by the word reckless, if we wanted to.

And every other line in the song points to him meaning something other than the word reckless. So, what,

I'm not going to turn that song off because of one word, but I'm also not gonna have other people think that that's how

God's love is. It's just totally reckless. Now, I'll try to be the most gracious I can be to that writer, and I'll pull out my, is that a word?

Can you say that? But you're probably gonna look for a dictionary. Yeah, let me try. Dictionary and thesaurus.

Thesaurus, dictionary is the definition. Yes, yes. Thesaurus are the synonyms, right? Correct, yes. Okay. And antonyms.

So I'm using the, yeah. Thesaurus. Yeah. Okay. To an outside observer, a shepherd who leaves 99 sheep to go find one would be reckless.

That's one of the lines of a song. There's no wall you won't tear down and door you won't kick open or whatever coming after me, right?

And that's the bridge of a song. I love bridges of songs. Yeah, thank you. Me too. But that would seem reckless.

So, maybe what the writer means is, and I would agree with this, the amount of love

God has for his children that he will scale anything to get to them could seem reckless to an outside perspective for an almighty

God to care that much about one of his creatures. So if I was trying to be most gracious, I would say that's what he means by that.

I would still use a different word if I were to write the song, but I have no problem listening to that song. Again, I don't say that word because there's me.

Andrew? Okay, worship, is it a worship song?

It's definitely written to be one. You gotta get closer. It's definitely written to be one. I would say, yes, it is a worship song.

Individual, sure. Corporate, no. Reckless is a dumb word.

I'll agree with Pastor Cy on that one. Also, the bridge, I don't like because there's no, what is it?

Mountain you won't - I'm messing it up. There's no wall you won't kick down, lie you won't tear down coming after me.

Okay, lie you don't tear down. Okay, I can see that one, but okay. He doesn't have to kick down a door.

He doesn't have to destroy a mountain to get to you. All he has to do is call you. Look at Samuel.

Hey, Samuel. Oh, I'm gonna run to Eli. Hey, buddy. I didn't call you.

He goes to sleep. That's three times. All God has to do is call you. There's no need for him to break a mountain.

He can. Lazarus, come here. There's a mountain you won't climb up. Lazarus, get up and come to me. So you mean there's not a point in him climbing a mountain?

There's no point in him climbing a mountain. There's no point in him kicking down a door. He can just make the walls disappear. Like, he's

God. There is no - I see his point. Right, so there's no point in him dying either.

There's no point in all that. And I like the song. There's a good metal version of this that's reformed.

I've heard that. I mean, I would just say to that argument, if he didn't need to do all that and he could just make anything happen, then he didn't need to die.

Oh, good. That's for the next time when we do our Q &A. Okay.

Oh, that was the question that his student asked. Yeah. Why didn't he just stop it? Yeah, why didn't he just stop it? Why didn't he just stop the serpent in the garden?

Right, but I had to say, well, that's even a, I'd go a different route with that. But what I'm saying is, you know, and let me say this, because I'm on a different wavelength than both of you.

Yeah, go ahead. Uh, from the perspective of Jesus, reckless love is an accurate word.

In that reckless is not caring of the consequence. Other words, he literally died because of it.

Because of his love, he died. He bore a bunch of crap and made the ultimate sacrifice because of love.

So while it might not be the best word. Well, I think it's what we're saying. I'd say it's accurate.

So I'd say I would still sing that on Sunday morning. Would you call it a carefree love? No. All right.

You would not call it carefree. What do you mean by carefree? Okay, but that's what I mean. What do you mean by reckless?

We have to. I mean by reckless as in it ended up hurting him. But like the consequence was his death.

Okay, I understand that. Yeah. I would just call that love. In other words, all love, true love is caring about the other person more than yourself.

When I hear reckless, maybe this is just me, I hear purposeless.

Like me breaking that lamp. That was reckless. Right, right. Okay, and I understand that.

And I agree with that in context. So it's overwhelming, it's never ending.

He says reckless love and the next line, it chases me down, fights till I'm found, leaves the 99.

Yeah, and I agree. So like in that context, it would be reckless in that they're making the point that God pursues.

Let me say this. Let me say this. Josiah, is it okay if I sing this

Sunday morning? Here's what I would say. Yes, so long as before you strum your guitar, you say, hey guys, we're about to sing this song,

Reckless Love. Like you have done before, and like you have done before, and what

I mean by that is X. Like you've done that before, and you've done that before.

Then I would say absolutely. Like your little intro of, I do not mean, I do not mean.

Let me define my term. I do not mean that God was just out there doing willy nilly and didn't care what.

In other words, I don't mean this. Then I would say yes, because you've set the tone correctly. And that's the thing.

There's a, I definitely want to do this one day on the podcast. There's a video we watched at RCA for, it was a chapel service, and it was this video of,

I won't go into it, the whole thing, because I really would love us to sit down and watch it, but it was this video of a father and his son, and the father was a train worker.

He was the guy who raised and lowered the bridge, like older, before they had automation, and basically the kid's looking at all these people trying to figure stuff out, and then they go to work.

The dad's up in the tower. The kid's playing somewhere, and the dad doesn't see the train coming.

It's full of people, and there's people on this train who are like shooting up heroin, who are having premarital sex, like all kinds of sinful things are happening on this train.

Well, the kid sees the train, looks at the train, sees his dad's not paying attention to the train, and starts to try to save the people by doing the switch.

Well, then the father sees the train, looks down, and the kid falls into the water. The father then has to pick, do

I save my son, or do I save the train? And the whole thing is an allegory for God, and it's like, no, that's not how that happened.

He didn't make the choice between, oh, I either have to let Jesus die, my only son, or I have to save the train full of people.

It was purposeful. It's purposeful, so that's where I fall into this, because if you were to say reckless,

Jesus already knew what was gonna happen. There's no recklessness to it. This is just what is supposed to happen.

There is a plan in place that we have to do. There's no recklessness to this. From the human perspective, absolutely it's reckless, because, what's the verse?

Scarcely would one man die for someone, especially if they're justified in dying for them.

No, that's not what this is. That's reckless, yes, I get that, but from God's perspective, it's just, okay, that's what had to happen.

It's more on a line of not self -preserving. That's why I would be totally, because I do love that song,

I would be totally okay, as long as that is explained on the get, on the front end.

I have to do that sometimes when I read older songs. I don't want people to think when it says he quickened me, that means he made me go faster.

So sometimes you have to do that. If that happened, then I'd be totally fine with that. Well, we have more.

We don't have time for more, but what we're gonna do is we're gonna bring this back. We're gonna continue next time we.

Let's bring it elbow. Yeah, all right. Next time we come back, we're gonna start opening up with a listener question, and his question is about the song,

It Might Get Loud. We'll finish our game, and if you have any songs that you think fit the description for this song, for this game.

Are you saying the name of the song? Yeah, It Might Get Loud. Hey, finish your announcement. Sorry. Oh, yeah, thanks.

If you have any songs that you think might fit the description for this game, might be interesting to hear about, let us know in the comments, or email us right here at listenpointtaken at gmail .com.

Let us know any songs. Let us know any questions you might have, as we will bring it up on the podcast.

Guys, if you like what you saw, like, comment, subscribe, but until next time.