WORSHIP WARS?!? - Season 2 Episode 3

Guys, welcome back to the podcast, the Point Taken Christian

podcast, the podcast where we make, where we take spiritual questions and

chat it up.

Guys, my name is Hunter.

Love being in this podcast, having a great time.

To my right, this of course is brother Andrew, built by God,

Cook.

Welcome shoulder, everybody.

I appreciate you joining us again for the Point Taken podcast.

And to his behind, and there's no sugar in it.

Obviously we have the lovely, the much loved, the famous, world famous Finnegan, pants

-less Finnegan, pants -less Finnegan.

We will not be putting pants in the budget anytime soon.

And to my left, guys, you know him, you love him.

You want some more of him.

This is Pastor Josiah Shipley.

Hello everybody.

Are you happy to be here?

I'm happy to be here, Andrew.

Guys, we're all happy to be here.

Today's going to be a really cool episode.

Another wolf shirt.

That's actually a returning wolf shirt.

That's right.

Because it says wolves, even though there's only one.

Yeah.

All right.

Go ahead.

I dare not wear the mask one again.

Please do.

Wear the mask one again, dude.

That was so sad.

Finnegan, you need to wear the mask one next time.

We would never do that to Finnegan, I'm sorry.

Finnegan didn't have a face, so he couldn't see what he's wearing.

Don't say that.

That bothers him.

I'm sorry.

You said that.

Honestly, I'm coming to his defense.

I'm coming to his defense, because had he had a face and seen that shirt, he would not have been happy.

Does he like cry from here?

And it falls out of his fingers?

No.

Well, we're talking about worship today.

Today is all about worship.

What's good?

What isn't good?

Guys, worship is a hot topic.

Worship wars.

Worship wars.

Churches worship will drive people to and from churches like, you

know, a sale on chicken.

Churches chicken.

I quit.

I'm done.

Dude, nuts.

Well done, man.

Right?

I was just like, that didn't click.

I had to explain the joke real quick.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's all right.

Yeah, so drives a bunch of different questions when it comes to worshiping and singing songs.

Churches chicken.

All right.

I'm ready.

Let's go.

I mean, we've had people leave this church because of worship.

We've had...

Well, I don't think we've really attracted anybody.

No.

They thought they left because of worship.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean...

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Y 'all's music minister doesn't seem like he knows what he's talking about.

Yeah.

He looks like he has bad taste in wolf shirts sometimes.

It's a good thing it's not me.

Yeah, man.

It's a point of contention because a lot of people judge a church based on music.

You know what I'm saying?

And that's not really the measure of a church, but really the music, that's not really the

point of it.

The point of worship music isn't to measure the validity of a church or...

To go to a rock concert.

Right.

Or even to go to an old fashioned...

Yeah.

Do you know how hard that is to sing?

Like really good.

It's really hard.

I'm just used to Monty Python.

Yeah.

That's all I...

I make up most of the syllables that I sing when I do it too.

Man, you're...

I hope our camera can pick up.

I did smack my forehead.

That is a shiner if I've ever seen one.

That's commitment.

That's commitment.

Nick, can you...

I wanted it to pick up here.

Like where's our roaming camera?

We need to get that.

Oh, he's in there.

That roaming camera over there.

Why is it roaming if he's sitting in a chair?

He's lazy.

He's bad at his job.

He said this is going to be like the trial run.

The trial run?

Wait a minute.

Are you...

There he is now.

He's getting all...

Oh my goodness gracious.

He's getting all the angles now.

He's going to walk back and forth for the next hour and 20 minutes?

100%.

Well, I don't know about a whole hour and 20 minutes, but...

Let's keep going back and forth.

He has to...

So I guess first things first, guys, and this one's going to be quick, but I just wanted to ask our

resident worship leader, minister man, what

is worship?

What's the point of worship?

Worship is an outpouring of praise and adoration to the Lord, to

Yahweh specifically, not to any other type of God.

I've heard the statement, and I do actually love this idea,

you are what you worship.

So worship is a sacrifice.

One of the Psalms says we bring the sacrifice of praise, or bring the sacrifice of praise.

Of course, and it's a song, yeah.

So when you are worshiping, it is a separation

of everything around you to an outpour of praise and adoration to the Father.

You can do that through singing.

You can do that through prayer.

You can do that through studying.

So what's the issue that people have, if that's all it is with the specific songs that we use?

Well, music is subjective.

There's not a lot of objectivity with music.

It's funny.

I was on the way here, I was listening to a comment, a reaction from the guy who wrote the song

to, of a reactor reacting to the song.

I lost track about, on reactor.

So the guy who wrote the song was watching a reaction to someone listening to a song.

Okay.

Okay.

So it's like, if I was watching, if I was...

That is what YouTube is, by the way.

He's taking more of his time to write more songs.

He's reacting to reactions to reactions.

That's every YouTube channel I know, anyway.

Yeah, everybody's reacting to reactions.

But one thing that the comment, the guy who was reacting to the song...

Yeah, the guy who wrote it.

No.

The guy who was watching the song.

Yeah.

Watching the music video.

Being watched by the guy who wrote it.

So what he was saying...

I know.

What he was saying was, is he was putting emphasis on his view of what the song was,

while the guy who wrote the song was saying, well, I didn't actually write it for anything like

that.

I just wrote it because I thought it was cool.

So music is very subjective to the person.

You pour whatever you're going through into it.

Now where we fall into a problem with that is when you take what is

supposed to be a song of praise and adoration, is supposed to be a song that lifts up

or sings about attributes of the Father, sings about the life -changing and life

-fulfilling promise of the Holy Spirit, the death and resurrection of the Son.

When you take that and you change the meaning of it to everything is about

what he did for me and how good it is for me that this happened, versus saying, thank you for the

wondrous works that you've done, that you've put out.

So when it becomes me -centered, while you can still be saying, Jesus saved me, Jesus saved me,

me, me, me, me, me, me is the, it's almost that Jesus takes a backseat to the idea of me.

Well, Jesus saved me from my sin, which is good.

That's great.

That's what we want.

But then you start saying, and look what all I've done with this, that, and the other.

Well, where'd Jesus go?

I'm not talking about Jesus anymore.

You're talking about what Jesus did.

Okay, cool.

But now they're doing it, but now I'm doing all of it.

Where's the, where's the, where is it at?

So and of course you have within that, so personal preference comes into the idea of

music is subjective.

So I'm not a big proponent of rap music.

I know a lot of my friends are.

That's cool.

I don't like it.

They do.

I don't necessarily think that it is the best type of worship music.

I would not be able to sing along.

I believe in congregational singing, and if a rapper were to go up on stage and rap, even if he was rapping

a book of the Bible, it'd be kind of neat to be honest, but I wouldn't be able to sing along or

anything because I can't congregation, we can't all worship together.

It is a performance versus a non, a non -performer.

I'm watching you.

I'm listening to you.

Congregational singing.

So that's your only issue when it comes to like hip hop or rap, is it, it's harder to...

In the context of worship music.

In the context of worship.

Yeah.

I have other problems with that, but...

So if like Lecrae came and sang...

Well, Lecrae...

Well I mean, okay, 2008 Lecrae.

It's not my personal taste.

I would not be able to enjoy it or do it, like to, to enjoy that type of a concert because

it's just not, I don't like that kind of music.

So there's my subjectivity.

See, I'm not immune to it either.

As a worship leader, I am that, hear me when I say these words, I am not immune to this.

But is it acceptable?

Is it acceptable in a worship setting?

I don't believe so, no.

Ah, okay.

So go, because I was wondering, is it, if it's just subjective or if it's also the objective, like...

Oh, is there an objectivity to it?

You can't worship to it.

Some people can.

I can't.

I don't see how you can, unless you like memorize the words.

I don't, I can't.

I mean, that's the same thing with most songs.

You either read it off or memorize it, right?

Not necessarily.

What do you mean?

It depends on how it's written.

Music can be written to where it is very easily picked up.

Okay.

So, for instance, children's hymns, stuff that we all, Jesus loves me, this, I know you can pick up on that.

Once you, once you kind of start to hear, even the most unmusically, unmusical person can pick up on certain types of tunes.

Amazing Grace is one.

It's not children's, but you can pick it up, amazing grace, how sweet, you've either heard it through repetition or you,

the tune, I'm not talking about the words, the tune you've heard through repetition, you can hum it, that kind of stuff.

But at the same time, it's easier to pick up.

Like it's, as an easy tune to pick up, you can, you can hum, it's an earworm, if y 'all haven't heard that tune.

It's an earworm.

Versus, someone's talking really fast like this, and then like putting a whole bunch of different words, and then a little inflection, cool rhythms, where it's like,

all of this is going too, you know, that kind of thing.

That's hard.

That's complex rhythm.

So I'm looking at the music theory side of it.

It's very hard, it's very complex.

It's very much like rhythmically driven, speaking specifically of rap now.

Very rhythmically driven.

It's very much like a snare drum.

A snare drum has no pitch.

It does have a pitch, but it's very obscure.

So this, say that back to me right now.

Ba -da -da -ba -ba -ba.

Okay, he's musically trained.

Say it back to me.

Do it again.

No.

That was a boy.

Well, I mean, I can say what he just said.

Ba -da -da -ba -ba -ba.

Okay, now do this.

That was pretty good.

That wasn't a real rhythm.

There's no way.

He went, so I'll beat right there, he said.

There's no way.

No, that wasn't time.

Maybe we can play it back to me.

Yeah, we'll play it back.

I'm pretty sure I just got like 80 % right there.

So that's what I'm saying in the context of rap music.

Now, if you have something like this, where you're going and you're, when someone's singing, my

favorite is, because we had this happen the other day at a school, when someone gets up there

and sings a familiar tune.

So if I were to sing, amazing grace, yeah, how

sweet the sound.

I can't follow that.

There's too much.

That's 100 % true.

That's too much wiggling.

Like, I can't do that.

We'll do that with the national anthem sometimes.

They sure do.

Yeah, good point.

And you're like, when they're singing it, and you go to the next part, but they're still on the same

verse, the same word, because they're just stretching it out to do vocal roles.

And you're just like, hey, bro, first of all, if I'd have known about that vocal role, maybe.

Maybe.

Maybe.

But I didn't know.

And you knew that I didn't know.

And you're still doing it.

And see, that's not to change subjects, but the national anthem is a good example, I think,

of a...

So the national anthem is to do what?

It is supposed to inspire and to get us all rallied around the same cause as Americans.

However, one of the things that has become popular is exactly that.

It is now a vocal performance.

Now it was written, back when it was written, it was written to be challenging, because not everyone should sing the national anthem.

That was the intention behind it.

Not everyone should be able to sing this.

So it was only...

I didn't know that.

That's cool.

Yeah.

It's pretty interesting history, how it came about.

And there's like six other verses.

But what it comes...

Yeah.

I didn't know that.

I didn't know that.

What it comes to is, he wrote it specifically to make it challenging.

So when you hear someone sing it badly, it's hard.

I mean, that's just what it is.

But we've taken it from, okay, this is something we should all strive to learn how to sing.

We're Americans, we should learn how to sing this song.

To, okay, every big sporting event, we have the national anthem to sing.

Okay, you can listen to it.

If not, everybody stands up, everybody observes a moment of silence, if you will.

And they may sing it, they may not.

It's really hard to follow that person if they're doing all the vocal roles, if they're doing all the arpeggios and stuff inside of the

music.

You tend to notice everybody stops singing and just starts to listen at that point.

Right.

Because what the heck are you supposed to do?

If that's what you're wanting to do with the national anthem, that's great.

Make it a performance.

But if you want to turn into what it actually was intended to be, which is a rally call for all Americans, then we should all be able to

sing it.

And I think that logic can be applied.

If anything, the logic for that should be pulled over from the Christian side of saying worship music,

hymns, songs, hymns, spiritual songs, whatever it may be, should have the same exact focus.

We all come together, we center on the same idea, and we sing together as we unify.

That was a very well -structured argument, because I was not with

you until that point.

Now I understand a lot more what you're saying.

So you're saying that there's a certain necessity of ease of, I

don't know, mass availability or

congregational joining in.

Like it has to be easy, or at least to a certain degree, like everybody to both learn it and

to sing it.

Yeah.

And that's why modern, I do believe why modern Christian, so CCM music

only sticks to, and you hear this joke all the time, well, all you got to do is learn four chords and you learn every song in the CCM handbook.

Yeah, it's true.

Because those four chords, whatever they may be, whether it be C, F, G, and D, E minor,

for those who do music, if it's just those four chords, you can make a song out of that.

Easy peasy.

Everyone's going to recognize, oh, okay, I know where the next, it's very predictable where the next chord's going to go, because everything has a

progression.

Chords have progressions, they want to go certain directions.

Right.

And you pick a melody that fits on those, but you don't make it very elaborate.

You make it maybe three to five notes.

Yeah.

That's very easy to pick up, especially if all you're doing is a verse, a chorus, and if you're

having a good day, a bridge, to connect, quote unquote, this is what they, this is, I love

doing this part.

So a verse, you know, sing a verse about something that's leading to the chorus.

It all leads to the chorus.

The chorus is the hook.

Yeah.

Then they need it to go longer, so they're like, well, this was another idea I had from another song.

Why don't we stick that in there to actually flush it out?

That's a new chorus.

We're not going to call it a new chorus.

It's going to be a bridge that connects the chorus to the chorus again.

Right.

So it's like, man, you say it another way of saying the same thing.

So yeah.

That's why it should be easy.

Personally, I love bridges, so Andrew and I have very, we have very different opinions on these things.

But I always respect your, what you're saying, though, because, but my thing, my question is,

I think there's a difference when it comes to worship music and its viability.

You have worship music on a Sunday morning, like put yourself in the shoes of the worship minister,

worship leader, music minister, whatever you say.

Put on Andrew's shoes.

And you'd say, is this song okay to pick?

Versus, there it is.

Versus singing along in the car on the radio, like, am I actually, like, is this cool to

worship to?

Like, what is, like, is this an actual good worship song?

So are you saying that all the songs need to be easily learned,

easily singable and all that stuff for both of those circumstances or just for when you're picking songs for

Sunday morning?

Well, I'm going to say that that is a huge indicator, at

least for corporate worship.

Individual worship is a matter of the heart.

So if I'm driving in the car and a song comes on, oh man, I love this song,

and I sing along to it, I have to be careful because if it's a song that is

specifically written to be a worship song, I need to be able to say, am I

singing this for the mere enjoyment that I like singing this song?

Or am I singing this because I want to worship?

I want to put myself in the mindset of worshiping.

So to answer your original question, which if you'll please restate it, the one you just said, say that again.

The one I just said.

So the ease of learning it and the ease of singing it, is that necessary just for picking Sunday morning

songs, or is it necessary for both worshiping to songs in private and for picking them as a music minister?

I'm going to say that it's definitely, the pendulum swings heavier towards picking

for corporate worship.

For individual worship, I think it's more on the individual than it is

for me.

Like I can't obviously, I'm not going to pop in your car while you're driving to work and say, hey, this isn't a worship song.

That's not him.

And then jump out of the car in the middle of traffic.

I'm not going to do that.

Some people may think I do that.

I can definitely see that stopping at a red light like on Highway 64 and just seeing him running up to the

car.

He's like, what is this garbage?

I'd be in much better shape.

Maybe I should just do that.

But no.

So as a music minister, yes.

Ease of singing is definitely something I think of and definitely want to put into play.

But individually, I mean, I have to examine myself where I

am at that moment.

How do I interpret, how do I take this song and do I apply it to worshiping or do I apply it to, I just want

to sing it because it's fun.

And I think that self -examination is necessary both for when you're in your car or by yourself or whatever and or in

corporate, I can't speak.

Corporate worship.

Church's chicken.

Church's chicken.

Yeah, you have to have that self -evaluation just like, what am I doing this for?

Like, am I doing this because it's fun?

Am I doing this because, you know, this is what everybody else is doing?

Am I doing this because I enjoy the music?

Because if it becomes because I enjoy the music, the second you don't enjoy the music, you're no longer going to do

anything and you're just going to complain and cry.

And quite honestly, there's times for everybody where a song is going to play and it's like, that's not my cup of tea.

But if you can't worship God during that song, then you have switched your

perspective from I'm doing this to worship God to I'm doing this to

relate to the music.

And that's cool.

Relating to the music is not an issue.

Relating to the music is awesome.

Relating to music is what, I mean, God made music.

Music is a language.

Music is like to provoke a reaction.

That's the entire point.

And when we sing it to God, it is to provoke a reaction.

Just not from us.

Not to mention God sings.

Right.

He does it in his own self.

So that's what I'm saying is that, man, when you enjoy music for you, that's awesome.

And you can feel that emotion and you can be led to do these things and you can pour whatever you're dealing with into those songs,

worship or not, however.

But when you worship, that's part of the sacrifice is worship is anything you do in obedience to God.

And that's what I tell the youth when I ask them, what's worship?

I'll say anything you do in obedience to God.

Praise is when you do it with music.

Right.

Well, if worship is anything I do in obedience to God, then being obedient to God is to sacrifice

my own self.

Right.

He said to take up your cross and follow me daily.

And if loving is sacrifice, I'm trying to show God love.

Then instead of letting my own self be affected by this music, I am trying to drive that affection towards him.

And I'm trying to do that for him.

So when I say, well, this song kind of sucks, that might be true subjectively, or

even objectively if it's just a terrible song, but it's not really about how you feel about it in that

moment.

Right.

It's about because your priority has to be, I am trying to do this to please God.

Right.

And in that, as a music minister, we'd want to pick something that

is good and that we want because that we think it's good and we think sounds good.

And the lyrics are in line with what is true and what is upbringing.

But at the end of the day, you can't let a bad melody

stop you from praising God.

To kind of jump on the point you made about emotionally getting into,

I wanted to swing over to Pastor Sia.

I'm ready.

SOG.

You want to do a plug about SOG real quick before we, before I ask you your question?

Ask the question, then I'll do the plug and answer the question at the same time.

So in SOG, you fight for the mic.

That is, that's the whole purpose of the fight, is you get the microphone and you get to spread the gospel to people that

may or may not have ever heard it or want to hear it.

When you're gearing up, when you're walking out to, for your fight, do they have music playing?

Yes.

Typically it's music that the person who's walking out has picked.

So that gets them emotionally prepared to fight.

So I guess my question is, is can a Christian song, a Christian worship song, do that

for a person if they let it?

Yes.

In what context?

For ready for a fight or ready for...

There's, that's what I'm, yeah, that's what I'm going for.

I'm just going off the emotion aspect of things.

Yeah, I would say, there's a lot I could say there.

First off, yes, SOG, Soldiers of God MMA is the MMA ministry we do at

this church where we train young men and women, make smart sharks, train them

to, well, some of them are the re just to get in shape, some are there for the camaraderie, some are there for self -discipline, some are there to train

to fight.

And we've got a fight for, I can't remember if it's June or July, but we have a fight coming up where

one of our young guys is going to have his first fight.

And I used to do that for a while.

I would say that, and if I could jump on what you were saying earlier,

what Hunter just said is worship, it's not just singing.

Worship is that what you do in obedience to God.

With that being said, emotions have zero to do with that.

They can be a by -product, like they can be a by -product of obedience, okay?

But not the cause or resource of it.

So anyone who's hoping for that emotional feeling that doesn't come while you're worshiping,

worship is obedience even if you don't feel like it.

In fact, I would say that's probably a bigger sign that you're obeying, is if you don't feel like it and do it anyway.

As far as when you said, can a Christian song, I would push back and ask, what do we

mean by a Christian song?

I have a definition of that.

Does that mean a Christian wrote a song?

Does that mean the lyrics are in line with Christian doctrine?

For example, there are a lot of songs that play on the radio that

I love.

Doesn't mean I love every line in that song, but I'm not going to let the one line, unless it is

heretical, deter me from listening to that song.

I can think of an example right now.

I bet it's going to be in this list already.

Well, you know what?

Then I'm not going to do that because I'll let you do that.

But, you know, Paul said, some preach Christ out of rivalry, not

sincerely, seeking to cause me anxiety in my imprisonment.

But what does it matter?

Just that in every way, if Christ is being proclaimed, then I'll rejoice.

So long as the actual Christ is being proclaimed, and there's probably the kicker right there.

So long as the actual Christ is being proclaimed.

When it comes to walkout songs, I did a lot of songs, and yeah, it's more

for emotionally getting you ready for a fight.

That's more of the purpose of it.

That should not be the same tool Andrew or any worship leader uses for choosing corporate worship

on Sunday mornings and what gets people emotionally charged to make a decision.

That's a load of crap.

That should not be the...

That's two separate things.

If you're viewing those the same things, let's just tell you something about you as a music minister.

Thank God we have music leaders and Brother Andrew here, but do not do that because it is not about the

emotional charge up to make a decision for God.

That's what a walkout song is for.

That's not what worship is for.

So can a song get you emotionally charged up for that?

Sure.

But if that's the case, if that's the case, then using it for a

different purpose than what we should be using Sunday mornings for.

Yeah.

And I'll say back when I first started, that was my gauge was

how was the feeling in the room when we were done.

As I have grown and as I have learned more, I'm just going to

use...

I've learned more than I used to back when I first started.

The worship time, which we have assigned on a Sunday

morning.

Yeah.

And Matt, even that phraseology, like I like here that we call it praise and worship because the

entire service should be worship.

If worship is obeying God, the entire service, including the offering, including the fellowship,

that's a command of God, including the invitational.

Including the study of his word during the sermon.

If you can't worship learning his word, then you're not learning his word.

That's why Andrew calls it praise and worship because we're specifically talking about with the mouth praise, right?

Like you said earlier.

I didn't mean to...

No, you're fine.

But that's what something I appreciate about Andrew is he doesn't try to

rile it up with emotions.

And just because motivational speakers do the same thing, and some of them call themselves

pastors and preachers, listen, the greatest sermon ever preached, the sermon on the

mountain was preached by the greatest preacher to ever exist, Jesus Christ.

At the end of that sermon, zero people got saved.

Greatest preacher, greatest sermon, zero conversions.

Not because it says people were astonished.

That's all it says.

Not because it was not a good sermon, but because a good sermon is not determined by the outcome of...

Peter gets up a few years later and says, you're all a bunch of godless scum, you

crucified the source of life, repent now or be damned.

And then Pentecost, 3 ,000 people get saved, right?

I mean, because it's a working of the spirit, not of emotions.

Right.

So back to relegate.

So most, at least in America, we have relegated our

services to two and a half hours on a Sunday morning.

And then if you're lucky, you have a Sunday night service.

And we've relegated it to that.

So what my new goal as the minister here is, is I want

you as a congregation member, as a family member, to walk away with

a song that may help you remember scripture.

That's why...

You pair it with scripture.

Pair it with scripture.

We always pair it with scripture.

Like we read Romans or Isaiah before we, yeah.

And then the last song, I will intersperse with Thanksgiving in my heart.

I will intersperse with praise.

That's scripture.

That's the psalm.

And if you can walk out saying, he has made me glad, just remember that throughout the week when you're having the

roughest week and you go, ah, I will intersperse with thanksgiving.

I need to do better about saying where it is.

I think it's Psalm 95, I'm probably wrong.

But that's my new goal, is scripture should always

be the cornerstone of how you worship, what songs you worship with.

Like this morning, we read Ephesians 1, it says that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened.

And then we sing, open the eyes of my heart, Lord.

I love that.

All right.

Well, let's go on to this question.

Let's get some specific examples, bro.

Oh, yeah.

So the question was, how do we decide when worship music is okay to sing to?

And for this, I've prepared...

Don't you love.

We're already classifying it as worship music.

It could be that or it could...

It could be anything.

I have prepared a little game for the guys.

Let's go, man.

What we're going to do is...

Come on, man.

Let's go.

I hope we don't agree.

Death will come swiftly.

I'm excited.

I certainly hope that we don't agree.

We're not going to.

Because I want some...

And your point will not be taken because yours is going to suck.

All right, let's go.

Whatever it is.

I have lyrics printed here on these papers.

I'm going to read some of them.

Some of them, I have the whole song.

Some of them, I have just the controversial parts.

Is he about to read the whole song?

No.

No.

It's just poetry.

Yeah, it's just poetry at that point.

It's like Edgar Allan Poe.

This first song...

And should we say this?

Let me preface it with this.

Because the first question you kind of answered, but we didn't really say is, should we listen to worship by non -Christians?

That's the first little thing that I had down here.

And when you said the Bible verse, it was the answer to the question that I had.

My B, bro.

Yeah.

No, no.

You were doing well.

Is that Paul said, it doesn't really matter how it's getting out there, just that it's getting

out there.

I do love how Paul was getting chided by the gospel.

Like people were preaching a gospel that was contrary to the actual gospel, and they're doing it in spite of, like

to spite him.

Yeah.

Well, there's two different.

It's the gospel.

There's when they preach the real gospel, but they have a hard heart.

They have a hard heart.

But they're preaching the real gospel.

He goes, you know what?

They're preaching the real gospel.

Cool.

Hey, thanks, bro.

But then when they preach the wrong gospel, he says in Galatians 1, and do not pardon my

language because it's in the Bible, he says, let them be damned.

So there's the line is what's coming out of their mouth.

The real gospel or a fake one.

I'm sorry.

I just, I have this middle image of some guy going, Jesus loves you.

I just, I can't get that out of my head.

So great in his teeth, just angry, like Jesus loves you so much, he died for you.

You suck.

He was resurrected on the third day.

He has ascended and he's Lord.

Now what are you going to do about it?

I'm going to sit here and be upset about it.

I like that idea.

I don't feel like that's a very common thing to happen.

Well, you said chided and I was like, oh, well that means they're doing it in spite of him.

But with all that in mind, you know, my initial reaction when a

obvious non -Christian sings a Christian song has stopped, has

stopped being, oh, what the heck?

And just not listening.

It has now been, well, instead of looking at the person singing it, let's see what they're singing.

Right?

So, Nicki Minaj, our first example.

She is part of a worship song with Tasha Cobbs and Nicki Minaj

features on it.

It's called I'm Getting Ready.

And this time I am going to read the whole feature.

Just Nicki Minaj's part.

And what are we supposed, are we supposed to respond?

Yeah.

Once I'm done reading it.

When are we responding?

We're responding.

Here are the parameters.

Is this a worship song that you would sing on a Sunday?

Is it a worship song that you would sing by yourself?

Is it a worship song at all?

Okay.

Okay.

And wait until you're done to say anything.

And I want an answer for all three.

Got it.

Okay.

I'm ready.

Of course, if it's an answer to no to three, it'll be an answer to no to one and two also.

It's possible.

No, no.

No.

Oh, wait.

To three.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think we need to switch it.

Is it a worship song at all?

And then the other two.

And then the other two.

Okay.

Up top.

Five fingers.

I'll put in a sound effect there.

All right.

Please do.

So, sorry.

I'm going to try and get through this.

Yo.

Ayo.

Oh, no.

All right.

That doesn't disqualify it yet.

I know.

That was Psalm 151.

I know.

Especially after.

That's a Spanish word.

Psalm 151.

Like, I.

By the way, for you that don't know, there's no Psalm 151.

All right.

Go.

All right.

Beach house vibes, maneuver the jet ski.

This is a worship song.

Hold on.

Whoa.

Beach house vibes, maneuver the jet ski.

Cuz, cuz, I serve the God that parted the Red Sea.

Bars.

Bars.

Multimillion dollars commercials for Pepsi.

From food stamps to more ice than Gretzky.

Okay.

All right.

Hold on.

We're not even halfway done.

Oh, no.

I'm just.

We're dropping them.

I'm putting it in my.

I'm trying to visualize the words.

Listen, Andrew.

I don't got to talk.

The Lord defends me.

I watch them all fall for going against me.

Cuz me and all my angels shot the devil up.

Which, honestly, that's a huge dub for humanity.

It's like, thank you, first of all, to you and all your homies.

Cuz devil was not a good dude.

While you was trying to pull me down, I leveled up.

I leveled up twice.

I leveled up three times.

He tapped him and told him, she's mine.

So, even when I cried, I knew I'd be fine.

Prepare for a miracle blessing in these times.

Now, praise him.

Raise him.

Name it.

Claim it.

Every tongue that rises up against me, shame it.

I breathed success in and out of my lungs.

I got the power of life and death coming out of my tongue.

You got to move a little bit with that.

Say it again.

Saying it's all.

It's about.

Now, somebody raise it.

Which, that didn't really make sense.

But, none of it did.

What is the question for all that?

Is that a worship song?

No.

You can go ahead and move it.

No.

But, hang on.

Let me see that.

Well, because I was initially asked.

I was like, hey.

Not even close.

Hey, is it cool that Nicki Minaj, you know, she does this feature on a worship song.

And, immediately, I thought, you know.

And, this is where I was actually incorrect.

Even though I was proven topically correct, the reason I was correct was incorrect.

I said, heck no, it's not right.

Because, she is not even close to saved.

Like, she's not even around.

Like, she's particularly, like, everything that's not saved is what she loves.

Well, I was like, okay.

Let's listen to the song.

Let's see what they're saying.

And, boy.

Boy, when she opened up with Beach House vibes.

Okay.

She said, multi -million dollars for Pepsi.

I said, how many times does she say me?

Can you count it?

Yeah.

Can you count how many times she says me?

And, then, she brags about what she has, what she does.

And, then, they said, every tongue that rises against me, shame it.

Because, it says, God does this, God does this.

Yeah, like, raise them, praise them, do all this.

But, any tongue that rises against me, shame it.

Right.

And, he's like, bro, like, what?

Like, right now, you're talking, like, God is your superpower.

Like, your alter ego that comes out and beats everybody up.

Like, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, you know.

You have your super powered guy.

So, her, ten times.

A reference of a deity is.

That's so true.

A reference of a deity.

I love how he says that.

When he gets salty about music.

Oh, man, it is so fun.

Four.

It's four.

Four of a deity.

Now, the reason I say a deity is because Jesus is not explicit.

Jesus, God, Yahweh, Holy Spirit, none of those are explicitly referenced.

So, I could be talking about Baal.

I could be talking about any Buddhism.

Well, the God described in that passage is not found in the Bible.

Correct.

Yeah.

Okay, so, I have some questions.

Sure.

Number one, what on this earth is Beach House vibes?

That's what I need to figure out first.

I want to understand.

She's partying.

She's having a good time.

That's the part you're asking about?

Because her burdens.

Hold on.

Hold on.

Hold on.

I'm actually about to explain this to you.

Explain it.

Her burdens have been lifted.

Is that number one?

She's been enlightened.

She's chilling now.

Because she's on Beach House.

But, not physically.

Although, she might have been.

I don't know.

Spiritually.

Emotionally.

She's on a beach.

She's at the beach.

So, she is in.

She's at the Beach House.

She's getting vibes.

Those are the vibes.

Okay.

As if she were.

Okay.

Because she's so relaxed.

Now, I just want to preface this.

Whenever I do get hot about this kind of stuff or get, what did you say, salty about it.

Yeah, you get a little salty about it.

When I get salty about stuff.

I don't just get mad and then not do anything about it.

I want to actually try to understand.

So, let me.

I'm going to androize this for just a second.

So, Beach House.

Feeling good.

Feeling good.

Yeah.

Because I have a jet ski.

I serve the God.

Okay.

The part of the Red Sea.

The part of the Red Sea.

Okay.

Now, that is the most specific thing.

That is the most.

So, otherwise she's saying.

Keep going.

Abraham's God.

Okay.

Here we go.

Multi -million dollar commercials for Pepsi.

So, that means she's praising, at least this is what I'm trying to understand.

She's praising God for the multi -million dollars that she's made from Pepsi.

No.

Actually, go to the next line.

I think that's what it's referencing.

Then, she's talking about where she came from.

She was on food stamps and then she has more ice.

Ice than Gretzky.

She bought an ice machine?

Now, stop.

Because you know better.

Yeah, I know.

Okay.

So, that's jewelry.

I don't know who Gretzky is.

He's a hockey player.

Wayne Gretzky.

Hockey player.

Hockey.

Ice.

Yeah.

Oh, I don't care.

Okay.

I don't.

Oh, I don't care.

This is Salty Music Andrew.

Best.

Top.

Top.

Three.

My answer was no.

So, we can move on to the next one.

Top three versions of Andrew.

Built by God Andrew.

The Punches.

Josiah in the Face.

Pandrew.

Pandrew.

Which is the.

Then Salty Music Andrew.

Those are top three.

Not in that order.

Okay.

Don't.

I don't gotta.

Oh my goodness.

I don't gotta talk.

The Lord defends me.

So, there should be a comma there.

Okay.

The Lord does not defend her.

The Lord does not defend you.

Read Micah.

The Lord will not defend her.

I watched them all fall for going against me.

That's kind of like David, but not really even close.

Cause.

Because.

Cause.

Cause.

Because.

Because.

Because me and all my angels shot the Devil up.

Alright, so, let's let's end it there.

Because we gotta move on.

Because we gotta move on.

Because we could continue with that for a long time.

Okay, but she said she shot the devil up and that's.

That's interesting.

That's the best part about it.

My question is, what angels?

The ones that followed the devil down?

We don't even...

We don't need that question.

I'm wondering what angels, because I don't know what angels would.

You know cuz God planned to shoot the devil up.

Jesus will be killing him in Revelation.

So right right at the ornamented.

Yeah, but I mean, I appreciate the work that she's done.

In the meantime.

Yeah, I don't know if he has to heal or.

She popped him in the knee.

We're gonna get we're gonna get we're gonna get.

Comments in here saying y 'all are just a whole bunch of hypocritical people.

Make it fun.

Oh, no, that's we just actually believe the bottom.

Yeah, I am a hater when it comes to that now.

I'll be a hundred percent honest I'm a hater when it comes to that but darn it.

That was fun.

That was fun.

It was fun.

She sure did shoot the devil up and Nicki Minaj.

We thank you.

You know what, you know, don't say at least there's not at least of that crap at least it's over we can move on.

That's good, okay.

Now this one this one's gonna be a little bit different.

This one is a song called you say by Lauren Degel Boy.

I think it's Lauren Degel, right?

Yeah, this is right up my alley.

Okay, so you're kind of salt bitterness.

I'm excited.

Remember treat this with the same amount of saltiness as that.

There's gonna be a difference.

But all right, hold on.

Hold on.

Don't don't kind of don't try and calm down a saltiness.

It's the best part of my day.

All right, so listen to this remember our Rules here is is

it a worship song?

Would you pick it to sing on a Sunday morning and or would you sing it alone?

Other way around.

Worship song alone.

Sunday morning.

Sure.

I don't care.

Yeah, I don't care in what order so long as is it a worship song first?

Okay, I Keep finding voices in my mind that say I'm not enough.

Every single lie that tells me I will never measure up.

I am more than just a sum of every high and every low.

Remind me once again, just who I am because I need to know.

Oh, whoa.

You say I am loved when I can't feel a thing.

You say I am strong when I think I am weak and you say I am held when I'm falling short.

And when I don't belong, oh you say I'm yours.

I believe I believe what you say of me.

I believe.

And I won't read the rest because the rest is basically The same thing.

I read the chorus real quick.

You say I'm loved when I can't feel a thing.

Oh, that was the course.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Doesn't you say Yeah, okay, I'm not gonna do the same thing.

Okay, you're not gonna do the same thing.

So I want to start with pastor Josiah on this one and let the salt just like build on that side of the table.

So, let me just reiterate the question is not Would I reword a thing or two?

The question is that's not the question.

The question I mean that can be a topic but the question is is it a worship song?

Okay first question.

Yes, okay.

Do you want to?

Defend that answer or move on to the second both.

The second one is would I listen that song and praise God for it?

Okay, right?

Yeah, yes, and I do.

That one's actually on my phone.

Okay, and three if you were the music minister, would that be a good song to pick.

Probably not?

Okay probably not.

There are.

There are just better options.

Yeah, I mean, I mean there's just there's just better option even by that writer.

There's just yeah better options to sing corporately as we are all supposed to be on one mind thinking about God.

There are just better options.

So no, probably not for number three for the first two.

Yeah, and that's the only reason is that there are better options.

No, that's not necessarily wrong or bad.

No, it's because there's a line on that song.

Can I see the other line.

It's not the part you just read.

It's um.

Mm -hmm.

See like this is to me the most worshiping Lines

of a song is right here.

What's it say?

In you.

I find my worth in you.

I find my identity.

In other words.

Yeah in and of myself.

I am nothing.

It's only in you, right?

Taking all I have laying it at your feet.

You'll have every failure.

God you'll have every victory.

The reason why I would probably not do it on a Sunday morning it's because

There are yes.

The only answer is there are way better options and that is not even though that serves a purpose.

I Don't think it would meet the needs of our congregation in explaining and describing who God is and what he does.

Okay, but yes, I into worship song and I would I would listen to it personally respect.

All right, the salt mines.

Okay, so first so let's let's structure it.

First question, is it a worship song.

No, okay.

Second and I knew that answer.

I knew I'd know very much his opinion on this song.

We did because when when I this is this is fun.

Because when I was first starting out as a worship minister and leader and stuff.

That song was just like brand -new right?

Well, actually I'd probably been doing it for a little while but I hadn't done it, you know in

Big church or whatever and so I I went up to him and I was just like what do you think of this song?

Because everybody loved that song and I wasn't really thinking Correctly because I still knew ish and

he was just like and he and I'm gonna let you say your reasoning.

But I know very much his opinion on it.

I took his opinion on it because I ended up he didn't say point taken to my opinion.

So I agree with I agree at least partially.

All right, go ahead.

Okay, is it a worship song?

No.

Do I think an individual person could worship to it potentially?

Let him let him let him finish it can be usually they can be mutually exclusive worship for corporate.

Absolutely not.

Here's my reasoning one I can replace you with anybody.

Mama says I am loved when I can't feel a thing.

Okay, that's a hundred percent.

Mom can say it mom can say I'm strong and You say I am hell is there us.

Is there any part in that?

Song where you feel like it wouldn't make sense to replace your God.

That's it.

Okay one line out of this entire song.

I can say okay.

However, I will caveat that by saying this the reason I say that an individual could

is because their focus is not on Anything other than you being God?

Okay, you being Galway.

I have problems when things are super vague like this.

This is the definition of the word vague.

Okay, there is no explicit Jesus.

There is no explicit Holy Spirit.

God is mentioned one time in this four to five minute long song.

Hence why it was put on the more than just Christian radio.

Which at first I thought was a dub.

I thought that was a win.

I said, oh cool Christian song but then when you made that point I was like How they're not thinking of it in the same lens

as I am and see there's the thing about Separating the artist from the art and I try my best to do that.

But when you see the path that this particular writer has gone down I'm

sorry.

It this is not a Christian song.

There you go.

I Love it, and I love it every time and the amount I love it never

diminishes or dwindles like it's one of the most consistent loves is

All right, it's me dogging on a little.

Yeah, and when I and when I had asked Andrew, you know as just a

budding music guy I was like, hey, you know, here's my set list or whatever for this upcoming Sunday.

He says you have you say on here I said I sure do everybody loves that song people are gonna enjoy it seeing

it.

It's just like Yeah, but like how many times does it say I?

And it said instead of God or whatever.

So it's like the entire thing is you say I am loved when I can't feel a thing.

So like when you read these and for every you there's two eyes.

You say I am loved when I can't feel a thing you say I am strong when I think I am weak.

That's three and you say I am held when I am falling short and when I don't belong.

Oh, you say I am yours that is and I believe I bet it's a great Caleb song positive encouraging

Kayla for sure.

Perfect because it has nothing to do with God.

It's all about you say this, but it's actually this.

That's a motivational speech that's a Joel Steen speech right there.

And so that's why I say I agree with him partially and that I would say it is a worship song.

I would say I would not choose it.

For Sunday morning service, but I do believe people can worship to it and I believe

that it's more about your like how yeah your mindset because if my

mindset is Understanding that this song the way it was written has a lot of

me focus me focus me focus.

But you say okay, it doesn't really matter exactly how these lyrics are written out canonical, you know.

It's more about how you're trying to say it.

Okay, then that's a whole different thing.

So I wouldn't sing it on a Sunday morning.

But I can definitely worship God to this because it's more about focusing on the you instead of the I

sure it's more about folk, but Looking at it through the salt salt glass

islands I I have been a little poison to it because I've been saying just like all I can see is

I I Am loved I can't feel a thing.

I am strong.

I am weak.

I am held when I'm falling short.

However the message to the song.

What's trying to be conveyed?

I think it's super cool.

And so I think it's totally a great Caleb song.

It's great totally a great Caleb song great.

Is it a Sunday morning song now, but I would still say that it's worship song.

I would too I would disagree.

That's okay points not taken because I.

You couldn't be consistent with that Position about I because you'd have to

throw some of the Psalms out in the Bible because some of the Psalms Lord I feel this my

enemies sure after me, but I'll.

Fight your point on this.

You give David credit cuz he's David.

No, I'm not even give a day of credit cuz David who does he always turn back to God?

Right that didn't.

They had one line.

Yeah.

Explicitly did not go back.

But I mean, but that's that's just the point when he was talking about corporate worship.

It needs to be no it has to be this and these without any of that I have that has changed my whole mindset on corporate

worship in that.

Oh.

This needs to be God.

I need to be talking to God.

Yeah, I just I can't imagine myself shifting your Opinion on something.

I never thought I'd you've changed my mind before is it because I'm

Unhumble.

No, have I been too prideful?

No, it's just it's it's more me than anything.

Okay.

Yeah, it's not you.

You have a lot of wisdom to give.

Okay I've sent my friends to you for advice you have I sure have and I never

heard from them.

So they took it.

Oh, they did really?

Yeah.

Okay, then they told me about said how'd it go?

And he said well, he said this and this and this.

Oh, yeah.

See, you have a lot of wisdom to get something.

I guess self -deprecation in this room.

No, thank you.

Just like that song.

Let's talk about this song.

What's this?

All right, we ready for this one.

We don't know you.

Well, I Got ready for it.

This song is called.

So will I oh Yeah, and I'm not gonna sing this whole song.

I mean read this whole song.

I don't know.

I'm ready prep for this one.

I'm not gonna read this.

I need to reread it because I haven't heard I'm ready prep, but this is I don't know Second verse or maybe third

verse it depends on how they split the first part up as.

You speak you're gonna be surprised in my answer on this one.

Is that right?

Oh.

We might disagree, okay, and as you speak a hundred billion creatures catch your breath.

Evolving in the pursuit of what you said.

Oh, no, if it all reveals your nature, so will I.

I Can see your heart and everything you say every painted sky a canvas of your grace.

If creation still obeys you so why?

That last line is beautiful.

Oh, yeah, that's incredible.

But the first line and as you speak a hundred billion creatures catch your breath.

Evolving in pursuit of what you said.

Yeah.

It is down here.

Yeah, this is one of the songs I had in mind earlier when I said Yeah, so I'm

gonna have to add a fourth category to answer this one.

Okay, I'm ready to hear it.

This is one of the most listened to songs that I listen to.

Yeah, like we you know when they do like every December or whatever.

Yeah, the playback.

Yeah.

If everything exists to lift you high then so I now think about that sentence now I don't care if the

people who saying this believe that that is a true sentence, correct?

Everything exists to lift him high.

Yeah, and I mean everything.

Yep.

Yeah, everything exists to him if the wind goes where you send it.

So why.

Yeah if the rocks crowd and so on so I at the sum of all of our praises still fall shy.

Then we'll sing it again a hundred million times, you know, in other words it is.

Lyrically, it's an incredibly made to worship then.

So why if the mountains bow down in reverence to you and so I've yeah.

Right, and so like that into the mic is true.

So written by a cult without a doubt.

So.

This one is tougher and here's why.

Is the question what I tell someone else to listen to the song the answer would be no, right.

Is the question is the question that I make sure when there are

immature Christians in the room and this song is playing to make sure I Outspokenly speak out against that

specific line right there.

They're evolving in pursuit of what.

No they're obeying what he said, they're not evolving in pursuit.

If the question is if I am on my way to work.

Uh, well, I skipped to the end of this song those last eight lines in order to get my mind ready

To obey God no matter what comes forward.

The answer is yes.

Yeah, does that make sense?

I mean, there's there's there's my thing.

In other words, I am uninterested in the cult that wrote this and they're You know bullcrap beliefs about

how God created the world and they say he created it and then they change it at the end.

Yeah, but if you're asking me if those English words right there Are God

edifying at the bottom right here.

The answer is yes.

The stars were made to worship everything exists to lift them high.

So the answer is would this be played on Sunday morning?

Absolutely not unless we change those words, correct.

That's literally what I change those words then absolutely because the rest of the song is spot -on.

I still haven't played that song.

Yeah, I have written like three different lines to replace that.

Let me let me go one more.

Knowing who this is.

Would I go to that to that school or that concert?

No, correct.

Yeah, right we could get into that land.

Answer.

That is no.

What I want.

And you're a hunter saying this on Sunday morning.

So if I'm the pastor and they come to me say can I sing the Sunday morning?

I would say if those words are changed then yes, there's.

We actually might be on the same page here, but that would be that would be my thing.

Other than that that doesn't mean I wonder.

I was wondering what you thought I would disagree with on that.

No, I thought I thought you might be surprised about me listening to it, but tell me.

No, I already knew because I don't want an immature Christian thinking that that is biblical.

Correct, right?

That's the thing.

Yeah, but if it's gonna make somebody stumble I mean, that's if eating meat makes your brother stumbled and

right me to meet all four girls.

So I don't that's how I would answer that one.

If that's changed sure, but again.

That's separating it from the cult I know is attached to it.

All right, hold on real quick skim this

Worship song.

For the most part.

Yes, that's what I'm saying for the most part.

There's a re statement of the creation story.

Yeah.

Basically, that's what this song is meant to be.

The lines in question.

There's two fallacies with it.

One a hundred billion creatures.

Catch your breath.

He only breathed in the two creatures and then the second one is evolving.

God did not use evolution.

Oh, yeah, and in Crete, absolutely.

He did not by the way.

Yeah, there there is one more line in that song and I want to show the difference just to show that we're not being partial.

Okay, good that line right there.

Is heretical which one.

The evolving in pursuit of what you said, all right.

Yeah, the last line of the song I don't agree with but it's not intentionally heretical.

So it says something like he died for us and he would again a hundred million times.

No, no, he won't it.

Because he wouldn't need to please tell me that one's coming.

No, it's that.

No, that's that.

The one that that I just got a mental image of is how do we reckless love coming?

Oh, yeah.

To from so so like that's not true.

He would not a hundred million times.

That's the intention of the song.

I know still is not to say That he's needed to die.

But that's that's one I'm like, oh we could do without that.

I'll give you another example.

Like a rose trampled on the ground.

He took the fall and thought of me above all.

Well, that's not true.

He didn't think about you above Everything and everyone like I can't think of the name of the

song but Yeah, he

took the phone that's not Would tell me to would that make me tell everyone don't ever listen that no.

That's just not accurate.

Yeah, the intention is still right.

He was doing it for our sake.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

It's just when The me centric stuff and there's a point I'll give you an older

one.

That's to me centric.

I think Andrew and I've talked on this one.

That's way too me centric for me and He walks with me and he talks with me and he tells me on his

own and the joy we share as we tear there.

None other will ever know.

Yeah.

Okay, so only you can know the peace of God.

Literally just you bro.

Oh, I don't know the name of that writer.

Oh, no, but he could not have.

I just I can't think in my heart that he actually meant to convey that.

But I don't know what else you're trying to convey.

Well, it might be that nobody that doesn't walk and talk with God.

I'm to the garden alone.

Yeah. Yeah.

All it was Randy Travis version.

Oh to the garden.

All right, let's move to the next one so we can get through a couple more.

Okay, so this one is called a ready or not.

Okay, this one was shared by an old podcast friend.

Cecil, all right.

You ready?

Listen to this.

There's no place like his presence.

There's no time like the now.

Okay, every one two or three of us count him in here and now.

He welcomes the bro.

Okay, two or three gathered.

I just realized what he's trying to say.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, he welcomes the broken.

He's all right with your past.

He's not mad at any one of us, okay, but he waits with open arms.

Says come are you ready?

Are you ready?

We started?

All right, that's how it always is.

That's completely false.

He's all right with your past.

He's not mad at any one.

Okay, I can take the salt if you want this time.

Go take the salt.

That's a load of bull if he if he loved you and was all right with your past.

He wouldn't have bled for it.

It's he he died for it because he loved you enough to change you not to leave you where you're at.

And that's that's that's and he he's not just mad.

He is razzle stray fury.

Yeah, he's enraged against and he's going to destroy the world with fire.

He in other words, okay, let me let me try this way.

Hmm.

If who all right if Ava spills milk.

And I say hey, baby, it's not that big of a deal.

Did I show her mercy.

Not really cuz it didn't really matter.

She didn't do anything if Ava.

If Rachel tells her to do something and she says screw you mom.

And she did and I say hey, baby, it's not that big of a deal.

Wrath is.

What makes mercy so merciful.

Right justice if it if there was no justice.

Then we want to never view it as mercy.

He is enraged.

He abhors sin.

That's why it's so beautiful.

He shows mercy.

Yeah, that's that's hogwash.

Go ahead Andrew.

Yeah, I was just.

That's the one thing everybody seems to forget about.

He's did that one.

Yeah, yeah, that seems to be the one thing every single modern Christian forgets is

there is a Penalty and something has to be paid for

justice is God's justice is simply putting things back

the way they should be.

Equal scales equal scales.

If you believe that God loves and he does loves you.

But doesn't care about what you've done in the past or doesn't care what you're doing.

You don't know how much he loves you.

Because he the point is that he forgives you.

No, that's the thing people keep thinking.

Oh, well, God's toleration versus forgiveness.

He's more loving than that.

He's forgiving right giving because he hates sin.

And that does not mean just because he forgives you does not mean that you are free from the consequences of your sin.

David.

David had him.

We talked about it.

David raped a woman potentially and murdered somebody and killed someone like I said, not potentially and not

allegedly.

Season one season one.

And what did God do?

He turned both his sons against him had one son killed the other son and then killed the new child.

Yep.

Sure, dude, because that was just and it doesn't mean he didn't forgive him.

It means there's consequences to sin, right?

He even said I forgive you but this is what's about to happen, right?

Yeah.

Yep.

Tough luck.

Kill like that's literally what it was.

All right, they're ready or not.

No, and no and you know, we heard ready or not.

But that's a season I got we heard that song at passion 2020 corporate world.

That was your first problem.

That was corporate worship.

That song was it sure was.

We were in Mercedes -Benz Stadium.

All right, and we said we were saying we said mm -hmm.

Listen let your eyes go up a little bit like.

Speakers that were there and I'm sure their eyes probably went up when they saw that song.

So this one is one that Andrew and I disagree with.

That means I go first cuz I don't know which side either y 'all are.

Okay, that's fine.

All right.

This song is called reckless love.

Oh You ready before I spoke a word you were singing over me.

You have been so so good to me before I took a breath.

You breathed your life in me.

You have been so so kind to me.

Oh the overwhelming never -ending reckless love of God.

Oh, it chases me down fight.

So I'm found leaves the 99.

I couldn't earn it.

I don't deserve it still you give yourself away.

Or the overwhelming never -ending reckless love of God.

Yeah, it's not actually yay, but it just rhymes better.

Um.

So the controversial part is should we call God's love reckless?

No.

Um, no, but okay, I do know this song.

Every other lyric of a song is spot -on.

So the word reckless is just odd because it doesn't flow with the song.

Before I spoke a word you were singing over me.

That's definitely 317.

He mentioned earlier.

That's that's the Bible.

Yeah, he breathed his life before I took a breath.

You breathed your life into me, right?

Yeah I mean, so that's not just a creation and that's how we get saved.

Before we ever took a breath he Chased me down.

John 10 leaves a 99.

Yeah, Good Shepherd get all that.

The point that the red it's like the point the rest of the words are trying to say is that it's not reckless.

It's purposeful so it's kind of like I Don't understand why

you would choose That word that doesn't flow with the rest of the song if.

So let's start over.

Okay, I do know this song and I love most of the lyrics of this song.

This one might sound goofy when I sing this song I changed that word to myself.

Reckless.

Yeah, I do.

I changed.

I changed the word to myself.

I don't say the word reckless there I say it doesn't rhyme, but I say purposeful.

It's not guys starting camera, oh, yeah, but I don't care.

I'm in the car by myself.

So I answered one question.

What's what actually it's answers to so far.

You do believe it's the worship song.

Well, no, I can't make that determination you said end of it you said in the car.

So you would say this is an individual worship?

So yeah, the title of the song has to change though because I don't even like the title of the song.

Which is the same thing as the chorus, right?

Which is why I don't yeah, it's.

That is not true.

That's what I'm trying to say.

It's not true to say God's love is reckless.

He's in total control of it.

So it's not reckless.

It's just not true if if you now someone could take out a thesaurus

and spend 40 minutes telling you what the writer actually means by the word reckless if we wanted to and

Every other line of the song points to him meaning something other than the word reckless so

What I'm not going to turn that song off because of one word, but I'm also not gonna

Have other people think that that's how God's love is.

It's just totally reckless now I'll try to be the most gracious.

I can be to that writer and I'll pull out my Thesaurus, can you say but you're probably gonna look for a

dictionary.

Yeah.

Yeah, let me try dictionary and thesaurus.

Thesaurus dictionary is the definition.

Yes source of the synonyms, right?

Correct.

Yes.

Okay and antonyms.

So I'm using the yeah thesaurus.

Yeah, okay.

To an outside observer a shepherd who leaves 99 sheep to go find one would be

reckless.

That's one of the lines of a song.

There's no wall.

You won't Tear down and door you won't kick open or whatever Coming after me,

right?

That's what that's the bridge of us all.

I love bridges.

Yeah.

Thank you.

It's a chorus, but That would that would seem reckless.

So maybe what the writer means is and I would agree with this the amount of

love God has for his children that he will Scale anything to get to them Could seem reckless

to an outside perspective for an almighty God to care that much about one of his creatures.

So if I was trying to be most gracious, I would say that's what he means by that I would still use a different word if I were to write

the song, but I have no problem listening that song again I don't say that word because that there's there's

me Andrew.

Okay worship.

Is it a worship song.

It's definitely written to be one.

You gotta get closer.

It's definitely written to be one.

I would say yes, it is the worship song.

Individual.

Sure corporate now.

Reckless is a dumb word.

I'll agree with pastor site on that one.

Also the bridge I don't like because there's no what is it.

The mountain you want?

I'm messing it up.

There's no wall.

You won't kick now lie.

You won't tear down coming after me.

Okay, why you don't tear down?

Okay, I can see that one.

But okay, he doesn't have to kick down a door.

He doesn't have to destroy a mountain to get to you.

All he has to do is call you.

Look at Samuel.

Hey Samuel.

Oh, I'm gonna run to Eli.

Hey, buddy.

I didn't call you.

Goes to sleep.

All God has to do is call you.

There's no need for him to break a mountain.

There's he can Lazarus.

It's a mountain.

You won't climb Lazarus.

Do you mean there's not a point in him climbing a mountain?

There's no point in him climbing out.

There's no point in him kicking down a door.

He can just make the walls disappear like He's God.

There is no Right, so there's no point in dying either all that like and I like

the song.

There's a good metal version of this that's reformed and I heard that.

I mean, I would just say to that argument if if he didn't need to do all that and he could just make

anything happen Then he didn't need to die.

Oh good.

That's for the next time when we do our Q &A.

Okay, that was the question.

He.

Yeah, why don't you just stop it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Why didn't you just stop it?

Why didn't you just stop this the the serpent in the garden, right?

But I had to say well, that's even though I'd go a different route with that.

But what I'm saying is, you know, and let me say this because I'm on a different wavelength than both of

you.

Yeah, go ahead.

From the perspective of Jesus Reckless love is an accurate word in that

Reckless is not caring of the consequence.

Other words He literally died because of it because of his love.

He died He he bore a bunch of crap and made the ultimate

sacrifice because of love.

So while it might not be the best word, well, I think it's what we're saying.

I'd say it's accurate.

So I'd say I would still sing that you Sunday morning.

Would you call it a carefree love?

No.

All right.

You would not.

What do you mean by carefree?

Okay, but that's what I mean.

What do you mean by reckless?

We have to I mean by reckless as in it ended up hurting him.

But like the Consequence was his death.

Okay, I understand that.

Yeah, I would just call that love.

In other words All love true.

Love is caring about the other person more than yourself.

When I hear reckless, maybe this is just me.

I hear purposeless.

Like me breaking that lamp.

That was reckless, right?

Right like if I okay I'll say okay, and I understand that and I agree with that in

Context so it's overwhelming.

It's never -ending.

He says reckless love and the next line it chases me down fights till I'm found Leaves the 99.

Yeah, and I like in that context it would be reckless in that they're making the point that God.

So let's use let me say this.

Let me say this Josiah is it?

Okay if I sing this Sunday morning, here's what I would say.

Yes so long as Before you strum your guitar you say hey guys, we're about to sing

this song reckless love like you have done before and like you have done before and

What I mean by that is Thanks, like you've done that before.

Mm -hmm when you've and you've done that before.

Yeah, I would say absolutely like your little intro of I do not mean.

Yeah, not mean let me define my term.

I do not mean that God was just.

Out there doing willy -nilly and Didn't care.

What.

In other words.

I don't mean this then.

I would say yes because you've set the tone correctly and that and that's the.

That's the thing.

There's a I definitely want to do this one day on the podcast.

There's a video we watched at RCA for for It was a chapel service.

It was this video of I won't go into it the whole thing because I really would love us to sit down and watch it but it was this video of a

Father and his son and the father was a train worker he was the guy who raised and lowered the bridge

like older before they had automation and basically the kids looking at all these people trying to figure stuff out

and then the they go to work the dad's up on the tower the kids playing on the somewhere

and The dad doesn't see the train come is full of people and there's people on this train who are like Shooting up heroin

who are having premarital sex like all kinds of sinful things are happening on this train.

Well, the kid sees the train Looks at the train Sees his dad's not paying attention to the train and it starts to

try to save the people by doing the the switch.

Well, then the father sees the train looks down and the kid falls into the water the father then has to pick

do I save my son or do I save the train and The whole thing is an allegory for God and it's

like no, that's not how that happened.

He didn't make the choice between oh Jesus died my only son or I have to save the rightful.

It was purposeful, right?

So that's where I fall into this because if you were to say reckless Jesus already knew what was

gonna happen, right?

There's no recklessness to it.

This is just what is supposed to happen.

There is a plan in place that we have to do.

There's no recklessness to this from the human perspective.

Absolutely.

It's reckless because What's the verse?

Scarcely would one man die for someone especially if they're justified In dying for them.

No, that's not what this is.

That's reckless.

Yes, I get that but from God's perspective It's just okay.

That's what had to happen.

It's more on a line of not self -preserving and see that's why I would be totally because I do

love that song.

I would be totally okay, as long as that is explained on the get.

Hmm on the front end, you know, like I have to do that.

Sometimes when I read older songs I don't want people to think when it says he quickened me.

That means he made me go faster, right?

Right, you know, I know that so sometimes you have to do that.

If that happened then I'd be totally fine with that.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, we have more we don't have time for more but what we're gonna do is we're gonna bring this back.

We're gonna continue next time.

We bring it elbow.

Yeah.

All right next time we come back We're gonna start open up with a listener question and his camera

person is about the song.

It might get loud.

We'll finish our game and if you have any songs that you think fit the description.

For this song for this game.

Are you saying the name of the song?

Yeah, it might get.

Oh, yeah if you have any songs you think might fit the description for this game might uh.

Be interesting to hear about.

Let us know in the comments or email us right here at listen point taken at gmail .com.

Let us know any songs.

Let us know any questions you might have as we will bring it up on the podcast guys.

If you like what you saw like comment subscribe.

Uh, but until next time.

Deuces.