BAPTISM SEMINAR (Session 2) The Meaning And Mode Of Baptism

All right. Well, let's pray and let's begin our time on the meaning and the mode of baptism father.

Thank you so much for the opportunity that it is to be able to discuss such wonderful and beautiful truths that are so applicable to your church

Lord, I thank you so much for the foundation that our brother David provided on covenant theology and how that is not an esoteric conversation for the ivory tower theologians, but that is something that's

Bind your Bible together and it's something that we as your people can can come to understand who you are through the covenants

Lord, we thank you for that foundation Lord. I pray that what is spoken here today would be clear

Even though it's going to be a lot and Lord I thank you for the technology that we have to be able to record these

So that we can reference them at another time Lord. We love you, and we thank you it is in Christ's name. We pray

Amen Now I'm gonna admit just right off the front that we cannot cover everything and you're gonna be thankful for that Imagine kind of a

Kayaking trip recently Graham and I went on a kayaking trip and we were in the Merrimack River And all of a sudden over to the left -hand side of the river

We see this this little twig sticking up out of the water and my my obvious Conclusion to that was that the twig was not surfboarding on the

Merrimack River That there's something underneath it. That's holding it up So as we go over to the twig

We see that it's connected to a branch and then deeper down still barely able to be seen is this trunk of a tree?

That's underneath the water that's holding this whole edifice up Now the reason that that is so important is because that's kind of like what baptism is

When you when you want to study and David made this point very clear when you want to study the love of God What one thing you could do is you could go to a topical

Bible or go to Bible Gateway calm and just type in love And and look at every Bible passage about God's love and then take out a notebook and start scribbling furiously

Notes about God's love and the attributes of God's love and how it applies to us and you could you could come up with the theology

Just by going at that topic directly But not so with baptism Baptism if you go at it directly,

I think you miss the trunk of the tree That's under the water and that trunk is absolutely essential for why that twig is sticking out of the water

If you're a Baptist and I've been a Baptist almost all of my life so I'm speaking now as someone who is has seen the trunk of the tree and I hope to show you the trunk of the tree that twig does not stand up there on its own and That's what

I hope to show you In this talk. My aim is to go over what the meaning and the mode of baptism is now we could be here all day

Talking about the meaning of baptism I struggled Mightily this outline has been revised about six times this week and we could have talked about how baptism is eschatological

Baptism is new creational baptism is judgment baptism is different for the Old Testament and for John and for Jesus and for the disciples

We could have went into so much amazing detail But what I want us to do is just we're not going to talk about the trunk today.

We're gonna talk about the branch We're gonna talk about a middle -of -the -road view to give you an idea of what baptism is now.

We're gonna start with mode What is mode? the mode of baptism is how you administer baptism if you're a

Southern Baptist Convention Baptist and you'll say that immersion is the only way that you can baptize someone rightly but what

I'm gonna argue today is that there's three ways in the Bible to baptize someone rightly an Immersion is not even primary

So that's what we're gonna do that's what we're going to tackle in the way that we're going to do it is we're gonna look under the surface of the

Water and we're gonna look at some language to begin with the Greek language the

Bible Was not written in King James English Although some people in North Carolina where I grew up would say

Jesus loved us so much that he gave us the King James Bible Okay, well if it's good enough for Jesus But the

Bible was written in Greek the New Testament was written in Greek the Old Testament was written in Hebrew Now the word for baptism in Greek is a is a very complicated word.

It's baptizo Sounds a lot like baptism, doesn't it? That's because that we get our English word from the

Greek Baptizo does not mean immersion Baptizo means to wash

Baptizo means to dip and I want to show you that Now if you're wanting to buy a book that's really expensive and will tell you all the definitions of the

Greek words in the Bible a Greek English lexicon known as BDAG is the best book that you could buy.

It's a dictionary of Greek words in English That book says that baptizo

Means this primary definition to wash ceremonially for the purpose of purification

Nothing about immersion in there at all. It means to wash ceremonially for the purpose of purification the second definition because you know in Definitions we have primary definitions and secondary definitions.

The secondary definition is to use water For the right or in a right for the purpose of renewing or establishing a relationship with God to plunge to dip to baptize

The third meaning and that's the only meanings I'm going to share with you is these three is baptism identifies us with something

Now that's not primary. That's not even secondary That's the third level meaning and I'll share a verse with you where this comes out first Corinthians Where Paul says you were baptized into Moses?

Paul is not saying that they happened upon a lake named Moses and they just so happened to be baptized in Moses's Lake No baptism in that sense.

It's the third level meaning of what it means that in their baptism. They're Identified with Moses just as in our baptism.

We are identified with Jesus Christ. So what I want us to understand is That this word has a rich tradition

The New Testament does not invent baptism when John the Baptist baptizes people in the

Jordan River He's not doing something new. He's doing something very old And there's a rich language tradition

So let's look at some examples of this the LXX, which is the Hebrew Old Testament in Greek.

It's called the Septuagint It's because 70 Jewish scholars got together and translated the

Bible from Hebrew into Greek So the Greek Old Testament says this in 2nd Kings chapter 5 verse 14 so he that's

Naaman if you remember the story Naaman was had leprosy and Elijah told him to go and wash in the

Jordan River Elisha told him to wash in the Jordan River seven times and then he would be

Healed so this is what it says So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the

Jordan According to the word of the man of God and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean that word in the

Old -testament Greek edition is baptized We could read it like this.

So he went down and baptized himself seven times Now if you're a Baptist you and I'm sorry,

I'm picking on Baptist again. I used to be one I've got a Baptist on my shirts Charles Spurgeon. I love him But if you're a

Baptist you have to believe that Naaman grabbed his pastor and he went down to the Jordan River and he said

I want you to baptize me and he baptized him in the name of The Father Son of the Holy Spirit and he immersed him and he did that seven times in a row and you're like that I don't think that's what that means

It's because the word doesn't mean immersion the words mean wash. He was dipped

He washed himself seven times seven being the number of God's perfection so that he was fully and totally

Restored through washing. That's what that word means Now there's another example of this

There's four examples of this word in the Old Testament, which that proves the point that this is not a new concept

It was in the Old Testament But there's also an example in the Apocrypha now if you grew up Catholic, you'll know what the

Apocrypha is It's the weird books that nobody knows what to do with that. They put inside the Bible All they are is

Jewish literature They're Jewish books that Christians especially Protestant Christians would say these are not the

Bible They're interesting. They're well worth reading, but they're not Scripture So in one of those books called the book of Judith the word baptized is used this way so Hellopher knees think

I'm pronouncing that right Commanded his guards not to hinder her and she remained in the camp three days and she went out each night to the valley of Bethulia and bathed in the spring

Now this passage is not saying that every night she went out and baptized herself Or every night she went out and immersed herself.

This is the first meaning of baptism. This is not the sacred Meaning of being baptized for a relationship with God this word means washed

So she went out and washed herself every night for three straight nights in a row. That's what the word primarily means

Now what about the Hebrew Bible? We talked about the Greek Old Testament Well, what about the

Hebrew Old Testament? well, it turns out that the word for baptized baptizo in the

Greek is tabal in the Hebrew and tabal Shows up in that passage that we just talked about a second ago where Naaman was baptized or washed seven times

You can read it like this. So he went down and tabal himself seven times in the

Jordan Now this word interestingly shows up 16 times in the

Old Testament and goes all the way back to the covenant of Moses Which shows that baptism is not a new idea to the

Christian It's been there ever since the beginning. I'll read you a few examples. Genesis 37 31.

This is before Moses so they took Joseph's tunic and They slaughtered a male goat and they baptized the tunic in the blood.

They tabal the tunic in the blood They dipped the tunic in the blood Again, this is not a word that means immersion.

This is a word that means dipped or bathed Leviticus 4 6 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle some of the blood

Seven times before the Lord in front of the veil of the sanctuary So again here we have an instance of this word that's used as baptism.

That means dip Sprinkle pour. Do you see what I'm saying? Immersion is not required for the word baptism.

Let's do a couple more examples Joshua 3 15 and When those who carried the ark came into the

Jordan and the feet of the priests carrying the ark were dipped in The edge of the water for the

Jordan overflows its banks and all the days of harvest so The priests who were carrying the

Ark of the Covenant did not baptize their ankles in the way that we tend to understand baptism

Dipped their feet in the water and that's an acceptable meaning for this term tabal

The final one I'll share with you is Ruth 2 14 At mealtime Boaz said to her come here

That you may eat the bread and dip your piece of bread in the vinegar So she sat beside the

Reapers and he served her roasted grain and she ate and was satisfied and had some left

So she took the bread dipped it in the vinegar just like the word baptism means tip.

It means wash It doesn't necessarily mean immersion now

I Do want to tell you that immersion is an acceptable way to do baptism, but it's not the only way and The reason that's not the only way is because the word itself doesn't require that we read it that way just as we've just shown but tradition

Also doesn't require that we view it that way So if we look at the Jewish tradition you had the Pharisees right who took the

Old Testament law the six hundred and thirteen Commands and then they turned them into thousands of different commands

You can you can walk so far on the Sabbath, but you can walk no further You can you cannot heal a man on the

Sabbath like Jesus did they called that a Sabbath violation? But you can pull your sheep or your goat if out of a pit if it falls into the pit they created these traditions

Well in Luke 11 37 through 39, we see one of the traditions that they've created now this is what it says now when

Jesus had spoken a Pharisee asked him to have lunch with him and he went in and reclined at the table and When the

Pharisee saw it, he was surprised that Jesus had not first baptized his hands before the meal that word is

Baptiste Oh But he said to him now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and the platter but inside you're full of robbery and wickedness

The Pharisees were not confused about what Jesus is doing. They they didn't say Jesus Why don't you go to the

Jordan River and baptize yourself before lunch? That would have been crazy. They wouldn't have said that they said why don't you wash your hands

Jesus? Because the Pharisees thought that if you didn't wash your hands in a ceremonial way, then your whole body was unclean.

Jesus is saying You're the ones who are full of robbery and dead men's bones So this word is not immersion.

It means to dip to wash. That's what it means Another funny example is in Mark 7 1 through 4 the

Pharisees and Some of the scribes gathered around him and when they had come from Jerusalem and had seen

That some of the disciples were eating their bread with impure hands. Thank you mark for explaining what this means.

He says that is unwashed For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they carefully wash their hands thus

Observing the tradition of the elders. It's what we just talked about and when they came from the marketplace they do not eat unless they baptize so themselves and There are many other things which they have received in order to observe such as baptize owing their cups and their pitchers and their copper pots

Now you can imagine a Southern Baptist Convention Potluck meal after after you know a meeting or something and they say guys.

Wait a minute. We didn't baptize the forks We didn't baptize the plates. What about the copper pots?

The word Baptiste so doesn't mean take it out to the river and immerse it or put it in the portable

Porta baptismal that that you can buy it means to wash them So the word itself does not require that we have a particular mode it does require that we wash

Ceremonially to restore relationship with God and I'll explain a little bit about that now. I want to address a few objections

We're gonna have a whole section on addressing objections, but I want to address a few Mostly because these are the ones that I would level at other people before What about the baptism of Jesus?

You say well You know you're talking about you don't have to immerse someone what Jesus was immersed the

Bible says he went down into the water and he came back up out of the water sure sounds like an immersion and Just like the

King James Bible if it's good enough for Jesus. It's it's good enough for me, right? Well, that might not be what that word means there

Because see here's how baptism worked when John was doing it John was doing something that was that was already done in the

Old Testament where the people of God Went through the Jordan River as a way of entering into the promises of God to be the people of God in the land that God had given them and When they when their foot hit the water

You remember the water split in two just like the Red Sea and they walked across on dry land

So what you have here is John through great symbolism in covenantal metaphor he's saying we are preparing ourselves to Welcome God back into the nation

We are preparing ourselves to be the people of God who are going to recross the Jordan River and and go back to our roots

Go back to our history back past all the unfaithfulness that we've done Against our God and we're going to do this ceremony in preparation for the

Messiah to come So what they would do is the Israelites would go around Israel into the country of Jordan and then they would walk back through the

Jordan River Back into Israel, which is exactly what their ancestors did in the book of Joshua So what you have is

John the Baptist is already in the water Jesus goes outside the borders of Israel and he comes to the bank of the

Jordan River and he looks out at John the Baptist Now the only way that Jesus gets into the water is if he goes down into the water.

I think that makes sense Jesus is standing on the shore and he goes down into the water

He walked step -by -step down the shore into the water He walks out to John the Baptist and it doesn't tell us how

John the Baptist actually baptized him It doesn't say that he sprinkled him. It doesn't say that he poured water over his head

It just says Jesus went down into the water and then he came back out now Maybe you're saying okay

Kendall. You're just playing word games. Well, let's look at another one I think this is a better even a better example

Acts 8 36 through 39 as They went along. This is Philip in the Ethiopian eunuch

As they went along the road they came to some water and the eunuch said look water what prevents me from being baptized and Philip said if you believe with all your heart you may and he answered and said

I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God And he ordered the chariot to stop and that both went down into the water both went down into the water

Did you catch that? Philip as well as the eunuch Luke is reiterating.

They both went down into the water and he baptized him and When they came up out of the water the

Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away and the eunuch no longer saw him But he went on his way Rejoicing now if baptism absolutely always means immersion

Then they were both immersed Here's what happened Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch both went into the water and they locked arms and they baptized themselves

They both went under the water. It says that they both went down into the water Now think back in your church history.

I've been a Christian I've been a part of the visible church, which means I've been to church went to church wasn't a

Christian all of those years But I've been a part of the visible church my whole life 35 38 years You can't find an example that I know of and it'd be comical if you did of a pastor

Baptizing himself along with the person who's being baptized where they lock arms and they say, all right, brother

It's a southern this way. We would say back there. All right, brother Let's do it. And then they they both fall back in the water that that's not the way that works

The pastor would take the person and dunk them in the water and pull them back up This says that both went down into the water, which means that Something different than immersion is happening here the something different is is that they were standing on the shore and they had to go down into the water and Once he baptized the

Ethiopian eunuch, which we're not even told how that happened Once he baptizes the

Ethiopian eunuch. They both come out of the water It doesn't mean that their head went down under the water and their head came back up.

It means that their body Moved from the shore into the water. That's what that means Now, why is this important?

Well, we want to understand the Bible rightly We don't want to have views where we say that the only proper mode of baptism is immersion when it can't be testified in the scriptures but we also

I Think there's there's a part of this where we have to understand what baptism means

So we're talking about the mode now wants to transfer to the meaning of baptism Now if you believe in immersion immersion is a wonderful way to baptize someone

I don't want to say that it's not and it has rich symbolism for what it means Colossians 2 12 says

Having been buried with him in baptism in which you were also raised up with him through faith in the working of God Who raised him from the dead our

Baptist brothers who we love dearly will say see Baptism means we go down into the grave and we come back up out of the grave.

That's immersion They didn't have graves like we have grace today You know, we think about burying someone six feet deep.

They didn't bury people six feet deep In fact, they put them on an elevated platform While their body was decaying and then afterwards they would put them in an ossuary still in an elevated position

So the idea is not immersion, but there is meaning there. The idea is not talking about how you

Administer the baptism is talking about what its significance is theological significance baptism through immersion means that we die to our sin then we go down into the grave with Jesus and we raise to life in Christ and our sin and the power of sin and the punishment for sin is

Buried in the grave with Jesus in the baptism as our brother David said so eloquently

Symbolizes it's the physical reality that symbolizes the spiritual truth So immersion has great

Theological significance and there you see it in Colossians 2 But what about the other modes of baptism, there's two other modes that churches normally use one is sprinkling where someone will dip their fingers in the water and they will sprinkle and that seems very

Catholic II like Growing up as a Baptist that always seemed like something a Catholic would do so I had a natural aversion to it

But this actually shows up in the Bible So for instance, remember I told you that the Hebrew word for the

Greek word baptizo is tabal. Well, here's another example Then he took the book this is

Moses of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people and they said all that the

Lord has spoken we will do and We will be obedient. So they're binding themselves to the

Covenant so Moses took the blood and Sprinkled it on all the people that have been a fun day to be a church

Guys, we're gonna we're gonna bind you into the Covenant But he sprinkled on all the people and said behold the blood of the

Covenant which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words so what we see is that a

Fine way to baptize someone is to sprinkle and it also has theological significance

Baptism by immersion symbolizes that you've died to your sin and that you've risen a new life baptism through sprinkling symbolizes purification

Every time you see Sprinkling happening in the Old Testament. You're talking about purification The high priest will go into the

Holy of Holies once a year and he'll sprinkle blood on the altar seven times because this is a pure and holy place to be

This language gets picked up in the prophets Ezekiel says that when the Messiah comes How many of you have heard the verse he will turn your heart of stone into our flesh.

I mean you've heard that verse Yeah, did you read one verse before it where it said he will sprinkle clean water on you and make you clean the

Messiah Is sprinkling water on his people purifying them of their sins.

That's what sprinkling images baptism by immersion images going down into your going to dying to sin and rising to life baptism by sprinkling

Talks about purification of sin. It's a great metaphor What about pouring that's the third way that we see that the

Bible talks about acceptable modes of baptism Now this one's a little bit more theological.

Maybe that's the reason why I love it the Old Testament God is the one who hovers over the chaotic waters of creation.

Do you know that? Genesis 1 the Spirit of God hovers over the face of the waters Okay, what about in the flood?

God is hovering over the waters through this theophanic dove Okay What about the

Red Sea God is hovering over the waters where the water separate water from dry land It's almost like creation is being undone and recreated for the people of Israel because in the original creation water and dry land

Separated in the Red Sea water and dry land separated again and God hovered over the waters

His breath is what separated the waters. So you got God hovering again What happens when

Jesus is baptized? Says the Spirit of God descends and hovers over him from above Spirit of God comes and is poured out on Christ in a special way in his baptism

What about New Testament Christians When the Holy Spirit comes upon them the

Holy Spirit comes upon them from above hovers over them and tongues of fire John the

Baptist says I baptize you with water But one is coming after me. He's gonna baptize you in the Spirit and with fire the same spirit that hovered over the waters of creation

It's the same spirit that hovers over you It's an unbelievable truth It's fulfilled to the

Jewish people acts 238 therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God and Having received from the

Father the promise of the Holy Spirit. He has poured forth This which you both see in here.

It's also to the Gentiles acts 10 to 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed

Because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on Gentiles. Also Romans 5 5 hope does not disappoint

Because the love of God has been poured out Within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us when

John says I baptize you with water but Jesus is gonna baptize you in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit comes from above and It's poured out on you and the love of God comes from above and it's poured out on you

It's an acceptable mode of baptism To have water poured over you Symbolizing the spiritual reality that God has done in Christ now

Does that mean that every single person who has water poured out over their head is a Christian? No, there's many people who will get wet for Jesus.

That's it But so brother David pointed out

The sign and the things signified are different some Will be truly saved

Some will get wet for Jesus We know this is true intuitively When we talk about how many

Christians are in the world and Christians get kind of nervous. They're like well They say that there's two billion, but I don't know maybe

Maybe a million. Maybe maybe ten million. Maybe maybe maybe half We don't know because we intuitively know that some will walk up to Jesus on the final day and say

Lord Lord Didn't we do many miracles in your name and he will say depart from me. I Never knew you we know intuitively that everyone who goes to church on Sunday is not saved

The visible church is what David was teaching us is all the people who come under the the canopy of the church those are the people who raise their hand and say

I'm a Christian the Invisible church are all those who are truly on that truly belief and believe in Christ and are truly inheritors of the covenant

Some will get wet for Jesus Some will have the Spirit of God poured out on them.

And that's why we baptize with pouring That's why we're going to I can't say that we have because we have it 24 hours, that'll be true

But that's why we're gonna baptize by pouring because pouring symbolizes the outpouring of God upon the people of God making them new

So you have three modes. Let's recap for a second. I don't even know what time I was I was gonna bring a stopwatch up here just to guard me, but oh,

I don't know Thank you, brother. This is why this is why I struggle so much a time.

Nobody holds me accountable You have three modes of baptism Yep immersion which symbolizes death to your sin

Resurrection in Christ you have sprinkling which symbolizes purification in the blood of Christ your sins have been wiped away and you've been made new pouring

Symbolizes the outpouring of the Spirit of God on the believer which makes them a new creation

I love all of those Pouring is going to be the one that we most normally do with the

Shepherd's Church now Let's Let's see

Just make sure I'm getting everything Let's let's differentiate for a second about the difference between spiritual baptism and physical baptism

In the Bible you have two kinds of circumcisions and you have two kinds of baptisms

You have a physical circumcision Where men went were not men where men would come and they would be

Circumcised if they were adults and they were converting to Judaism, they would be circumcised just like Abraham But if they were already

Jews, they would be circumcised as infants on the eighth day That's a physical circumcision where the foreskin was cut off and thrown away that's a physical circumcision but yet the

Bible and Moses Specifically says I wish that you were actually circumcised in your heart.

It's a spiritual circumcision It says this in Deuteronomy 36 Moreover the

Lord your God will circumcise your heart in the heart of your descendants To love the Lord your

God with all of your heart with all of your soul so that you may live So some people got cut for God some people

Actually knew him and it affected their hearts and it changed everything about them

So we see in the Old Testament, there's two signs of the Covenant. There's the physical sign that everybody got

There's the spiritual sign that only those who truly believed received

The same is true in the New Testament the entire church Must get the sign of the

Covenant and because the sign of the Covenant now applies to more than just men

It applies to women It had to grow you think about it this way in the

Old Testament a Sacrifice could be offered for your sins But that always pointed to Christ a better sacrifice needed to come so that sacrifice needed to grow

You think about the priesthood the priesthood would go in and would serve the people on behalf of God But yet that priesthood wasn't enough

The priesthood needed to grow we needed a new and better priest the king under the Davidic Covenant Could not keep the people of God from falling into idolatry and even himself from sacrificing his own children to the idols

We see that all over the Old Testament We needed a better King the temple where we go and worship

God one place on earth where we go and worship God and yet Now all of us are walking talking temples.

We've been made temples of the Holy God So however many Christians are truly are on earth. That's how many temples now exist and we need more

Do you see that the temple had to grow? The sign had to grow the priest had to grow the prophet had to every part of the

Old Testament needed to grow up Into the Covenant that Christ was bringing So baptism or so circumcision no longer was a sign

That carried enough weight It says in the New Testament Christ Circumcised us on the cross

That's a fascinating phrase to say that he circumcised us on the cross. He ripped out our flesh and He nailed it to the cross

That sign has been completed as a brother David said What hasn't been completed is that we need a sign for the

Covenant? We had Moses as our administrator before we had Abraham as our administrator before now.

Jesus is the administrator What's the sign of Jesus's Covenant? It's not circumcision It's baptism

Baptism is the sign of the New Testament Covenant and just like baptism all along was applied to the heads of the household and their families

Now baptism applies not just to believing adults, but to their children. So we're getting a little bit ahead of ourself

But that's we're tying all these thoughts together Colossians 2 11 through 12 says it like this

And in him you were also circumcised With a circumcision made without hands in the removal of the body of the flesh of by the circumcision of Christ Christ was cut off from his people just like circumcision and he was nailed to a cross just like the foreskin of the man was thrown out of the city and As he was cut for us and removed for us

He also removed our sin and removed our stain and removed our wickedness nailing it to the cross again, as we said those themes are consistent throughout the

Bible and Because those themes apply so consistently we can understand Circumcision is no longer a sign for the

Christian but baptism is so baptism is The New Testament sign that's the first thing in this page.

I wanted to show you I'm going to go back and talk about Purification from sin acts to 22 16 says

Now, why do you delay? Get up and be baptized and wash away your sins calling on his name

This is such an important verse for you to understand And if you don't have the categories that I just told you about before you're not gonna understand this verse

You're gonna say wait a minute. My pastor said baptism does not wash away my sins baptism does not

Save me So what is Luke talking about in this passage? Well, if you don't have the categories of physical baptism and spiritual baptism

You're gonna get mixed up on this passage and you're gonna say well I guess baptism really does save me like the

Catholics have taught me. No, it doesn't Your baptism in water symbolizes your baptism into Jesus There's two baptisms

You are brought down into the water or you were sprinkled or you were poured But the real Truer fuller baptism is the one that Christ brings when he baptizes you according to the

Holy Spirit if you were truly in Christ Your baptism in water doesn't save you

Christ baptism in the Spirit is what saves you that water Baptism is a sign that points to it for instance

If I were to ask you is God gonna flood the earth again, you would say no he made a promise

I would say to you, okay What do you have to be outside looking for a rainbow to make sure that that promise is true and you would say no

I talked to my son Graham the other day. He said I've never seen a rainbow. I said Graham You're eight years old.

Of course, you've seen a rainbow. He's like I don't believe I've ever seen one in person and I was like, well, let me ask you a question

Does that mean that God's gonna flood the earth just because you haven't seen one? He said no his promise is still true

I said exactly right His promise is still true so the sign and the thing signified are different the baptism in water

Signifies what God is going to do like take like our friend David said God is the one who is acting upon us

He's the one who's saving us We respond to him in baptism. We have a sign that points to the spiritual baptism, but they're not the same entire thing

Our baptism signifies what God has done for us in Christ Now if you think about it

Bible says that God saved us before the foundation of the world, right? Well, you can't get baptized before that you weren't there

The Bible says that 2 ,000 years ago on a cross we were baptized into his death burial and resurrection.

You can't get before that you live 2 ,000 years late So why would God require you?

To wait until you can make a credible profession of faith if he's already if you are truly in Christ saved you

If he's already truly in Christ baptized you According to the Spirit on the cross now.

He hasn't applied the Spirit to you yet But it says in a real way in a spiritual way you have been baptized into Christ My point is is that God is always the author of your salvation

God is not waiting on you to have the right magic formula and say

I believe that Jesus came and he died for my sins and let me make sure I remember that the fall happened and let me make sure that I Have this theological category and if you just say all the right words then bing bing bing the spirit comes down Everyone around you believes that you're a true

Christian and then you can get baptized No, that makes you the object of baptism.

Not God We get baptized not because we're faithful We get baptized because God is faithful and God is the one who has

Been working in every part of our life to bring us to faith The sign points to what

God has done Not the other way around. Okay, I think

I'm probably going to have to move a little bit ahead This would work so much better if I had them in one two three instead of one three two order

Just realized that that happened all these colors probably ruined my thought process

All right baptism also symbolizes Let's see

We've talked about that Okay, identification with Christ.

We're on part three now So of all the things that baptism means one of the most important ones is that we are identified with Christ Just like I said earlier to you that in the

Old Covenant you were baptized into Moses When the New Covenant you're baptized into Jesus First Corinthians 10 1 through 4 says for I do not want you to be unaware brethren that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea and All ate the same spiritual food and drink the same spiritual drink for they were all drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them and that rock was

Christ these people Walked down into the

Red Sea it parted for them and Paul calls that a baptism Now how many of those people were actually immersed in water?

None of them? They walked down on dry land. The water was to their left and to their right at best.

They were sprinkled by some mist The point is not in this passage

That they were immersed or that they had a particular mode. The point is that they were looking forward to Jesus The sign pointed to Christ and Christ is the one that we were going to be identified with another thing that I would point out is that it wasn't just the men who this applied to Men and women walked on dry land through the water men women and children walked in dry land across the water

So if you think about it, all of them were baptized into Moses which pointed to Christ So why would we say after all of this rich theology and tradition?

That all beautifully pointed to Jesus Now the Covenant has gotten more restrictive as a

Christian It applied to men women and children in the Old Testament, but now it just applies if you make a credible profession of faith

That's not what it's saying it's saying that the whole family of Israel which was families of families of families were baptized into Moses in Preparation for the day when we would be identified with Christ Fathers and mothers identified with Jesus Baptizing their children pointing to the fact that they are also in a special way made holy through being a part of the

Covenant So baptism means being identified with Jesus Baptism also means union with Jesus or union with Christ First Corinthians 12 13 says for by one spirit.

We were all baptized into one body Whether Jew or Greek or whether slave or free and we were all made to drink of one spirit

So here we have another passage that is telling us again What baptism means baptism symbolizes that we are not just identified with Jesus.

We are in Christ. We are in unity with Christ We talked about the two circumcisions and the two baptisms now

I want us to To close our time By talking about why all of this matters so far what we've learned is that there's a covenant framework to all of Scripture and That covenant framework ties all of these things together

That God is the principal actor in faith. And if God is not the one who acts then none of us would be saved

God from the very beginning when Adam fell Had a plan and a purpose for his creation

He didn't throw them away he made a new covenant with a with Noah and after human beings fell into sin again

He had a new covenant with Abraham and he purchased a family for himself That would bless the entire world and when that family fell into all kinds of sin and misery and ruin

He brought them up out of Egypt out of their idolatry and out of their slavery and he made them his people By baptizing them in the

Red Sea pointing forward to what he was going to do all along with Christ You ever heard the story of Hansel and Gretel?

Where the the two walk through the woods and they leave little breadcrumbs along the way so that they can find their way back the breadcrumbs of Jesus Christ are all over the

Old Testament pointing to what he's going to do and All of these things that we've been talking about point towards him

The continuity is there and when we get to the New Testament, all we want to be is be is be consistent

We want to say that this promise has always been for God's people. It's always been for families and As we baptize at this church

We want to do it in such a way that honors the entire Bible I'm going to close back going back to the metaphor that I began with We can look at the twig and say that twig is just a twig

Or we can look at that and say that there's an entire tree trunk underneath it If we look at the

New Testament and we see that gosh There's no verses in the New Testament that say baptize your infants.

Thou shalt baptize your infants Then we have the twig but if we see the

Covenant underneath it if we see the consistency underneath it if we see the God of the Covenant is being consistent in Old Testament New Testament in every part of the

Bible if we see the meaning of the words if We see how all of these promises apply to families.

I think the only biblical position that we could adopt is Covenant baptisms where we baptize those who convert to Christianity and profess faith in Jesus Christ and we baptize them as adults and if families have children

We recognize that God has a special plan and purpose even for them He set them apart in a special way and we baptize them as well.

Now. There's so much more that we could say Maybe I'll sneak in one more thought I was talking to a friend of mine and this is what

Convinced him and this friend is especially cantankerous. So this is possibly a good argument or maybe it's not

I think for him it was I Said brother Do you believe in the sovereignty of God?

And he said Of course I do He makes his whole life about the sovereignty of God.

He said, of course, I believe in the sovereignty of God I said, okay, do you believe in human responsibility? And he said yeah,

I Said okay Well, which one's more important if you had to prioritize one of them God's sovereignty or human responsibility meaning if I choose something

I can violate God's sovereignty or if God chooses something he can violate my agency now I know these things work together, but I'm just asking which one would you prioritize and he said

God's sovereignty, of course and I said brother if You believe that God has done everything to save you

Then why do you believe that it's up to you to make a credible profession to take the sign of the Covenant? The sign of the

Covenant's for you sign of the Covenant's for your children. I'll take questions now

Calvin you do me a favor and put the question slide up just because It's the very next one. Yeah Because now we're in question mode and I want that to be consistent

All right, Oh Derek's gonna get the microphone for us or Matt All right.

So questions. I know that was a lot. I spoke really quickly What what things would you like to know more about I Wasn't that clear?

Well, thank you, brother Got a question up here. Awesome It's not a question, but I think

I need to meet with you one -on -one As I have too many Well, if you have some now we can talk now, but we also meet one -on -one as well.

I Don't even know where to begin, you know for me to learn. I don't learn well sitting in a group in College I did two years and said yeah, that's enough

So this is just a little bit overwhelming but I I do struggle with After being baptized

Jesus came up immediately I to me that's up and Out of the water not up on the shoreline

Mm -hmm Yeah, I'm open I'm you know, I'm not like gonna go home and say

I don't believe anything Kendall just said but and the other thing is with Philip Let's see

And they both went down into the water. I for me that just means

We put our feet in the water what happened after that? I don't Right now. I don't believe they're both

Right immersed themselves That's just I'm saying the same argument for both of those that in the same way they went down into the water the two together is the same way

Jesus went down into the water and subsequently up out of the water but even if you hold to Immersion is primary because Jesus was immersed it doesn't really change the the point that all three are biblically attested and What we would say is all three are sufficient ways to baptize a person

You can be baptized by immersion or you can be baptized by pouring or by sprinkling and all of those are valid So whether that or that particular argument is convincing and there's some grammar in those

Statements that that can kind of tip it one way to the other but whether that particular arguments convincing

All three methods are valid methods to baptize And and I think you know as Catholic I think it was poured not sprinkled but oh

That was just my non Catholic. I'm thinking I mean, I don't remember You know a big

Catholic family that's pretty much what they've done, but my own baptism came

Like I tried to read the Bible For years on my own even as a Catholic. I would pick it up and have no clue what

I was reading Until I was baptized and it was like the next day.

I understood it. So and I was immersed I you know, I think those are the things that Make it hard to think

You know Jesus was buried He was immersed when he was buried and then he rose and I think

I've got that in there somewhere Yeah, does that make sense it does and and if again if the method of baptizing and the one that you see is immersion that's okay, like I don't think that when he goes down into his grave that that baptism is is even primarily speaking about immersion at that point

Although I think that a lot of people will use that as as the primary meaning of that text The meaning of that text is that he kills and then buries

The power of sin over our lives and the penalty of sin over our lives so that when he rises with us

The punishment that we deserve has already been it's already been totally killed now

I had another point as well on that But I lost it.

If I remember it, I'll bring it back up if I could actually add to that too

I think that you know, oftentimes we will You know our interpretation of these texts will come with certain presuppositions that we have certain images

We have in our minds of how these events played out because as we're reading we're we're kind of creating Images in our minds of these things and in the day and age we live in where movies and TV obviously add to that, right?

But I would say that I think what Kendall you and you maybe you can speak to this too really your effort was to undermine the necessity of that interpretation more than Display that it had to have not been immersion, right?

But to say that, you know by the definition of the word baptizo You know, maybe our understanding of it or our assumption that the word must mean immerse

You know, that is really what you specifically you were challenging to say that this is not so much about being submerged underwater

But to be washed Ceremonially before God, that's right You got another question over here

So I Just want to tell you I really appreciate the the what you guys are presenting here is

I see it as being very It's very inclusive and it it is biblically based here.

It's this is not based off of We we need to follow immersion because we're not

Catholics That's something or we don't we don't baptize children or infants because that's what the

Catholics do or we're not Baptists anymore so We're not going to follow that thing.

We're going to start doing pouring a lot a lot of these theological based arguments

Really? I they they are they're divisive and they do tend to separate

So I appreciate it. I think what I'm hearing from you is is that you know, all these are acceptable.

That's what you said so now moving forward practically How do you how would you deal with somebody that says no,

I'm an immersion guy it's got to be immersion So that pouring thing or dunking the baby up front?

That's not I'm not I'm not gonna fit in that little bowl there So, how do you deal?

How do you practically deal with something like that? Would you would you sit there and you would you work to correct them or would you say?

All right, we're going to the river How would you do that? Yeah That's a great question

I think that those things because one of the things that we want to do is the church is baptized members and children of Members so that conversations already come up before we get to that point

There's no spontaneous baptisms where we're inviting people up and then we have this awkward moment where we're oh, no

You know, what do we do? Like everybody get in the van. We're going to the river, you know We we've had those conversations beforehand and my goal in that moment as a pastor would just be to to have the conversation that that That baptism by immersion is not a required mode of baptism baptism by immersion would be a complicated mode of baptism for us in this building and in this church and baptism by immersion

I think At least according to the confessions and David can answer this better than I can because he's much more well -versed in the

Westminster But theologically even the baptism by pouring is It's probably the preferred method and David you could probably speak more into that if you wouldn't mind

We could take this up later if you have more questions on it, but the Westminster divines I think very wisely did not make any particular mode of baptism

Necessary that is all three modes are considered valid baptism but for reasons that were mentioned in part

It's generally thought to be preferred to have the water from above because it matches up with spirit baptism

The Old Testament passages pointed the New Covenant like Ezekiel talking about I will sprinkle you with clean water and so on But as a practical matter

None of those are mandatory Theologically and there would all be considered valid modes within the reformed tradition

So a small follow -up question is is those of us that did the best we could with our

Baptist upbringing How do you how do you view? people who've had Experienced past baptisms then and and how would you how would you advise somebody like that?

Who just isn't sure where they where they stand, right? It's a great question.

I'll tell you personally speaking. I was baptized as a ten -year -old in my swimming pool The pastor had a special service at my house

And he was a Methodist pastor. So I would never at this point and go to a Methodist Church based off where they're at but I feel no need to be rebaptized because the baptism is not about the quality of the church and it's not about the

Faithfulness of the pastor and it's not about even the faithfulness of the church where it was administered. It's about the faithfulness of God So in my baptism,

God was faithful and I would not rebaptize me And you know even my son

Zeland You know as an example, he was baptized in a word of faith mega church when we were, you know, brand -new believers

I wouldn't rebaptize Zealand because God is the one who's faithful in his baptism. Not me or not the church you know because if we think about it, we can split hairs all day long and We can make every church seem unfaithful

There's parts of the Shepherds Church that we need to repent of and we don't even know about it yet. So God is faithful.

That's what I would say So what I'm getting here is

At least I'm getting the mode. The mode isn't what's important here. That's right.

It's the The baptism and it's not how it's

Delivered to you how the water is sprinkled on you because that's not what cleans you It's what is in you in Christ you in Christ So I'm saying this right

I think more so for me is The family, you know now children that's even more so not so much the mode because However, you know, however, you come to Christ.

However Christ comes to you and however you decide to be baptized But it's more important that you just Get baptized as soon as you believe because I think and I remember having discussions with Scott on this we wait sometimes

Oh, well, it's too cold. So we got to wait until Springtime to get baptized till summertime.

We can only do it up in the Northeast during the summer I have I make up on today and I can't I can't get in the pool, you know

I've heard like that and then people put it off and they wait eight months to get baptized and maybe that eight months they

Whatever they you know But it I think he said go get baptized as soon as you believe go and get baptized.

That's one thing I think the thing I struggle with most which I'm understanding more today is the family bringing the children along and have them because I Was baptized as a

Catholic before, you know when I was a baby I actually had my kids because I left the hospital and didn't baptize them for six months

So I had the priest, um, you know say something over them and blessed them before we left the hospital

But then I became a Christian in a Presbyterian Church who does not, you know, recognize my

Catholic baptism But I had to take a public confession of faith interesting that the Presbyterian Church you were at did not recognize your no they did

Oh, they recognize it. So I didn't have to get baptized. Okay, but I did have to do a public confession of faith

And with my children with me So I you know thinking back now today that brought me back to that and then as a

Baptist I got baptized in 2013. So I think I'm covered with baptism But yeah, so I I think

I'm understanding more or Agreeing more of it doesn't matter the mode

If I had to summarize everything into a single statement baptism signifies the faithfulness of God that he's faithful to save his people and The way he normally works is he saves us through our families.

So now this it's not what you asked, but I'll add this in This understanding this really gives us as parents a pretty heavy burden to say that You know

Paul I so appreciated what you said earlier where you said that you you walked with your kids through Devotionals and you read them the scriptures and you prayed with them.

That's exactly right And that's a that's a perfect example of what we ought to do as parents when we baptize our children we're we're proclaiming over them that God is faithful and that God is good and That that God will save his people if it turns out that I'm gonna baptize

Sorry pastor Jerick's gonna baptize Jackson tomorrow but if Jackson my youngest turns out not to be a believer then

God is still good and God is still faithful and God is Still going to save his people We're baptizing

Children and adults at this church in a declaration that God is faithful and that God will work out his people

Better than we can so that's what I would say to summarize everything down. Yeah.

Thank you for that man. That was a That was a miraculous sprint to the finish there

Man, I was really good So you might you may have already touched on it, but um, so regarding Abraham and okay so you regarding Abraham and his two sons in the initially in the beginning had more sons, but so Ishmael Ishmael, right he applied, you know, the covenant sign, you know of circumcision and then

So it's kind of crazy how that he was the one the first child to receive that that sign and then because I see in your notes and he says

Isaac was a future believing member and He received a circumcision in this infancy. So it's kind of like Kind of speak to the fact that Like we shouldn't really be thinking about whether our child is gonna be obviously that that needs to be a concern

We need to be praying fasting You know doing all the things we can possibly to bring our you know children to faith and all that stuff but then also it's kind of like Like you notice that he didn't like stop and say but he's not really believing, you know he's not really, you know, like can you kind of speak to that like what like that Misgivings should not should not deter our obedience.

That's right to applying the sign. Yeah. Yeah, that's good And and chica you've hit the nail kind of on the head is what baptism has become in the modern evangelical world

Is that that we have to evaluate a person and make sure that they're faithful enough and they know enough and they can say enough

To get baptized we're treating we're treating them like they have to earn their way into God's good graces through some sort of performance

And and that they can only get God's covenantal sign if they perform and that's not at all

What God commanded Abraham to do God commanded Abraham who was an adult who repented and who by faith believed the gospel

It says that and in Galatians and that all of us who are children or who believe the gospel are now children of Abraham Well, Abraham was commanded by God to baptize your entire home.

So the prescription There's two ways of viewing the Bible every text of the Bible. Some passages are prescriptive

Which means that they command us to do certain things some passages are descriptive telling us that this is what was done

The prescription in that passage is baptized your household or sorry circumcised your household what we tend to do if we don't follow that line of thinking cheeky is that we will only

We will treat everybody as if they're Abraham and that they have to They have to believe and profess faith before they can receive the sign of the

Covenant Abraham stands in our place as our as our federal or as our covenant head and All of the people in Abraham received the sign

Infant and adult so we can't treat everyone like they're the covenant head. We already have one of those that's

Christ and now because of that we receive the benefits the blessings the provisions and the obligations of that covenant from our youngest days up until our oldest so That's a good question.

I hope I answered that Any other questions? All right.

I see a little hand over there, but I don't know if he's messing with me You already summarized

Kendall, but if I could maybe just even add to that You know the the the mode of baptism

You know, it's it's important, right? But it's you know, and we have preferred preferred modes of pouring or sprinkling according to the confession, but it's not a

An issue that we would that we would deem to delegitimize a baptism essentially, right? And so I think from that we look at the meaning as being the far more important thing

What exactly is being signified through this? Sign and seal of the covenant of grace that God's given to the church

And so I think because of what we understand baptism to mean that's where we connect this to David's first talk, right?

It's When we understand baptisms meaning of God's sign and seal, you know his mark upon his people

It is a logical step to take that Therefore so sign and seal of God's covenant of grace

Those who are members of the covenant which David covered believers and their children Would take that mark upon themselves or God really putting it upon them.

So right. Yeah, very helpful Let me add just one more thing to that too because I'm gonna play off what Donna just said a second ago

I think it was it was really there's really smart and perceptive There should be nothing that Unnecessarily prohibits us or precludes us or keeps us from getting baptized

So if I'm understanding rightly, I think the framers of the Westminster Confession and others

Just made the logical assumption to say well and they didn't say this but I think this is what they meant

Well, what if the river is frozen? You know You have to wait until the spring to get baptized or what if what if you live in Lowell and there's there's needles on The shore of the

Merrimack River, which is absolutely true Or you know, what about this or what about that or what about this?

What about that that mode of baptism should not be a hindrance to you becoming baptized and and because we have three biblical

Model or three biblical modes that are well attested in Scripture The easiest one of the easiest to do is pouring and it's an acceptable mode and we can do it any time

So I think that's one thing I would add to yeah, and we also know that you know

The thief on the cross wasn't baptized. So it's not required for salvation. But to your point we should obey the

Lord by getting baptized Yeah, so I just wanted to maybe add and you can correct me if I get this wrong, but I think part of some people's

Getting hung up on and get confused at times of what you just discussed

Is that oh, well, I was baptized as an infant Well, were your parents

Christian were you were you're in a family of believers or were you just Non -believing family that happened to be

Catholic, but not actually Christian and then you got baptized And then you thought you were good sort of speak.

Yeah. Yeah, so like I don't want to get too nitpicky But like that's a very common thing and then some people become believers after that and Think they might be covered, but they're not

Yeah, it's a great question Justin and and I will admit that I've been a Presbyterian about three months and not even affiliated to anybody so I'm I But I would say this 1st

Corinthians 714 is our brother David shared that because of one believing parent That child has looked at differently than the rest of the world now

Does that apply to two unbelieving parents who for religious tradition or for? Hey, we're in New England.

So we're automatically Catholic just like if you're in North Carolina You're automatically Baptist and we're just gonna do this as a part of our traditions and ceremonies

I would say and this is me speaking not the Lord and and you know Maybe not even the majority of the reformed tradition although like I'd like to say that that maybe there's some agreement there, but that sign applies to the children of at least one believing parent and If that's not the case, then

I think it's strong Reason for you to consider. Hey, was it a legitimate baptism now?

I'm I'm learning and I'm growing in this area and you know, even in the the ways that I've communicated this with others.

I've said That the Catholic baptism is hard for me the majority of the reformed tradition accepts a

Catholic baptism knowing that that there's some things that are that are going on and There that aren't that we would say are not biblical

I struggle with the Catholic baptism for that reason and I struggle in that situation of children of no believing parents for the same reason as in 1st

Corinthians 7 14 But I would defer to my brother David on this question because I think he could offer some really good insight as well.

I Want to encourage you to think about it this way because this is Going to be the most helpful to you, even though it sounds really simple

Baptism means what Jesus says it means It doesn't mean what the priest who baptized you thought it meant

It doesn't mean what your parents thought they were doing and so on Your parents may have brought you to be baptized because they thought you were innocent rather than a sinner

It needs to be saved and they thought this is a beautiful family tradition That is not what baptism means

And so if you were baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit Using the words of institution in water

Then in fact you were baptized and so I would consider that a Christian baptism

No matter what the relationship of the church how messed up it was now.

Is that what we want? No So for example, you would not tell someone go get baptized in a

Catholic Church You would not tell unbelieving parents to have their children baptized right, but if you were baptized under those conditions, which we might say are bad conditions

Praise be to God God is faithful. That's right. And his promise that has been sealed to you.

He's brought to fruition by bringing you to true faith That's right. And that's why as a pastor whenever I meet with this issue

I challenge the person to think through what their baptism means and And just as David said

God is faithful. That's right. Yeah, I think I would even add to that to David's point right that there's a

At the end of the day If someone has been baptized under the the words of institution Father Son and Holy Spirit baptized in that name then the faithfulness of the the church the the baptizer or the parents is

Is is not of most important in that situation. It's God's faithfulness and I you know at the same time

This is something that we don't want to have happen, right? So there are implications of how do you guard against that as a church, right?

I grew up in this area and grew up in a nominally Catholic family was baptized in a You know when

I was a baby You know, you know, but we didn't we weren't church attenders, right? So the Catholic but the

Catholic Church's Practice is very much you live locally to this church. You can be back like your family doesn't have to be members here

You just come and let us know and we'll baptize your baby How do we as a church guard against that as Kendall mentioned, you know, very very briefly before you know

We're not gonna make it a practice here where you know, someone who lives down the street Here's that we do, you know infant baptisms and they don't like the

Catholic Church because of you know other reasons, you know socially culturally whatever things going on Within the

Catholic Church over the past, you know, 30 40 years But they want their child to be baptized. So they come here and say hey, well you baptize my child

We would say no we baptize the children of members of this church and it's not even to say hey

You're not a believer So we can't baptize your child because they're not a member of the Covenant but it's just that this is a safeguard that we can set up in order to prevent situations like with you know,

Thousands millions of people who've been baptized in the Catholic Church, but never didn't grow up going to church We're not part of a covenant community

I'm just gonna go to cheeky first because he put his hand up and then I'll come back to you Matt Yeah to kind of throw out something as well, um, so we're talking about Trinitarian baptisms, right?

So what about what about non -trinitarian baptisms like a Mormonism? Certain calls like, you know,

Jehovah witnesses and yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're not Christians. So Is it possible for there to be

Christians in the Catholic Church? Absolutely Is it maybe they're not Christians because of Catholic doctrine, maybe they're

Christians in spite of it, but they're Trinitarian That is an essential doctrine of the faith that if you do not believe in the

Trinity You are not a Christian the Mormon Mormons who believe the doctrine of Mormonism are not

Christians so I I Would say that I would not accept a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness baptism in the same way that I wouldn't accept an

Islamic You know ritual washing ceremony That's what

I would say So, I think this is gonna be an easy question for you.

But this is a true story in it Usually it's not when you know, well, yeah So this is a true story

David get ready in small group Many years ago. We had a young lady who said she had this tremendous guilty feeling of driving while during an extreme rainstorm hitting a puddle and Just completely drenching the people that were on the sidewalk and she asked for advice

What can I do? I've just drenched these people. I wanted them to know I didn't do it on purpose and that I'm a

Christian and so my advice to her was roll down your window and say I Baptize you in the name of the

Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit Was that good advice?

I'm so glad we recorded that question You know, that's about as good not quite as good as the eschatology question you asked in my living room that one time

We'll leave for another time. No, that was not good advice, but but but all in good fun, right? All right.