May 12, 2023 Show with Joshua Schooping on “Disillusioned: Why I Left the Eastern Orthodox Priesthood & Church”

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May 15, 2023

May 12, 2023 Joshua Schooping, pastor of the Christian & Missionary Alliance Church of Russellville, AR, who will address: “DISILLUSIONED: WHY I LEFT the EASTERN ORTHODOX PRIESTHOOD & CHURCH”

00:02: Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father
00:08: James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister
00:13: George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron.
00:21: This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:57: And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:11: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:16: Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:22: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 12th day of May, 2023.
01:30: I am so thrilled, and that is an understatement, to have as a first -time guest today a former
01:39: Eastern Orthodox priest, who today is a theologically reformed
01:45: Protestant and pastor of an evangelical church. His name is Joshua Schuping, pastor of the
01:52: Christian and Missionary Alliance Church of Russellville, Arkansas. And we're going to be discussing his book today,
01:59: Disillusioned, Why I Left the Eastern Orthodox Priesthood and Church.
02:05: It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Joshua Schuping.
02:15: Are you there, brother? Yes, sir. Chris, thank you so much for having me on your show, for inviting me on.
02:21: I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to share. Oh, I am absolutely thrilled that you're on the program.
02:27: The last time I discussed Eastern Orthodoxy on my program was on April 13, 2018, when
02:36: I had Dr. Jack D. Kinnear on the program, who is one of the very few
02:43: Protestant experts on Eastern Orthodoxy. And we conducted an interview on Eastern Orthodoxy, what separates it from Rome and the
02:53: Reformation. And Dr. Kinnear actually earned a doctorate at St.
03:00: Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary. I believe that's the same seminary where you were educated, am
03:05: I right? Yes. Yeah, I went there at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary.
03:12: And I wanted to do a follow -up interview with Dr. Kinnear. I didn't even know until after the interview was over that he was battling cancer at the time.
03:23: I believe he is cancer -free now. He is alive and well. And after the show was over, when
03:33: I asked him to come back for a part two, he said, brother, that interview totally exhausted me because of the fact that I'm battling cancer.
03:43: And I don't see me coming back on in the near future. I'm just totally wiped out and debilitated right now.
03:51: So I felt very bad about that. I didn't even realize that he was suffering with cancer at the time of the interview.
03:57: But I'm so thrilled that in God's providence, I discovered you because, as you know, this is something, for some reason, is a subject that very few
04:10: Protestants are familiar enough with that they could speak with any kind of authority in a public forum.
04:20: And before I even get into other questions, is there a reason for that that you're aware of?
04:26: A lot of it has to do maybe in an academic sense with the access to materials translated from Greek patristic sources or Russian sources.
04:40: So in some sense, there's only slowly been building enough material for people to be able to review responsibly a wide swath of Eastern Orthodox theological positions.
04:54: Another is that it's very mysterious in the sense that it somewhat thinks, according to it, a non -Western kind of way of thinking in some ways.
05:05: It can be more comfortable in mystical kinds of conceptions. It has a very deep history, which naturally will give people pause.
05:17: People might speak out of turn by only having studied either a more recent document or studying a more ancient document, but not necessarily knowing the historical development of theology in the
05:28: East, not to mention the whole political side of the Eastern Roman Empire and Byzantium that also has a lot less scholarship devoted to it that people typically have access to.
05:39: So I think there's probably multiple good reasons why people might feel hesitant to address
05:46: Eastern Orthodox topics. Well, before I forget to mention this, and I hopefully will remember to repeat it later on, but of course, after this live program is over, look up in the
06:00: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio archive at ironsharpensironradio .com, type in the search engine
06:06: KNER, K -I -N -S -N -N -E -R, and you will see a link for my interview from April 13th of 2018 with Dr.
06:18: Jack D. Kinnear, who was at the time a professor at the Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and we did the interview, as I mentioned, on Eastern Orthodoxy, what separates it from Rome and the
06:33: Reformation, but also you're going to have a treasure trove, a great wealth of information provided for you with our mutual very dear friend,
06:45: Dr. Tony Costa, who conducted three interviews with my guest,
06:53: Joshua Shooping, on his YouTube channel. So if you go to the YouTube website, type in the search engine
07:01: Toronto Apologetics, just like Toronto Canada, because Dr. Tony Costa is professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Toronto, Canada.
07:13: So if you type in Toronto Apologetics and you add to it Shooping, S -C -H -O -O -P as in Peter, I -N -G, you will see the interviews that Dr.
07:25: Costa conducted with Joshua Shooping, my guest today, and they are rich with content and information that you will want to hear.
07:36: But before I get into your testimony, we have a tradition here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony.
07:52: In this case, the whole program is really on that, but with much more information that we will seek to provide our listeners with on the religion of Eastern Orthodoxy that you have left.
08:08: But before I go into that, tell us about the
08:13: Christian and Missionary Alliance Church of Russellville, Arkansas. Oh, yeah.
08:18: The Christian and Missionary Alliance is a movement within Christendom, within the evangelical world that started a little over or about a hundred years ago with a gentleman named
08:29: A .B. Simpson, who was a Presbyterian pastor who wanted to kind of minister and evangelize to the lost and downtrodden in the
08:39: New York area, New York City area, I believe. And it became a little bit of a conflict with his pastoring of the local congregation where he was in the
08:49: Presbyterian church, and what he felt was a call to minister to those who hadn't really heard the gospel, maybe coming off the docks, you know, homeless people searching and in need of the gospel.
09:01: And so he ended up stepping away from his ministry in the Presbyterian church to start evangelizing and ministering both to people locally to help give them the gospel, but to also prepare people for missions work.
09:15: And so that kind of started the Christian side of it and the missionary side of it, eventually joined to become the
09:20: Christian and Missionary Alliance. A .W. Tozer also became a member of the
09:27: Christian and Missionary Alliance. A special focus is the deeper life. You know, what does it mean to walk out the life in Christ or Christ's life in us?
09:38: How can we walk more faithfully in that? And so that kind of spread to become an enormous global movement that worked together non -denominationally or worked together with other denominations to try to share, spread and encourage people in the gospel.
09:54: And so someone came and founded a church here in Russellville, Arkansas, a good while ago, and it's been here ever since.
10:05: And, you know, I was called from northeastern Pennsylvania where I was ministering to come down here and serve in the
10:12: Christian and Missionary Alliance, Russellville. Praise God. Well, the website for that congregation is
10:18: RUSS—an abbreviation for Russellville— RUSSCMA .org.
10:25: That's RUSSCMA .org. And God willing, I will repeat that toward the end of the program.
10:32: It's interesting to note that my guest is theologically reformed, and yet the
10:38: Christian and Missionary Alliance denomination, from what I understand, is predominantly not reformed.
10:46: I don't know if they would identify themselves predominantly as Arminian pastors in that denomination.
10:53: Many who are not of the reformed branch of Christendom do not like to associate with the title
11:03: Arminian, but my guest today is one of those who are among a minority in the
11:11: CMA who is reformed and, in fact, the pastor of the local
11:17: Christian and Missionary Alliance Church here in the same town where I'm broadcasting right now, the
11:24: Carlisle Alliance Church, the pastor there who's been there, I think, just about two years now, maybe less.
11:33: David Monreal, who has become a friend of mine, he is also theologically reformed. So I've got to introduce you two guys.
11:40: Okay, yeah. A .B. Simpson, with his Presbyterian background, his affirmation of real presence in the
11:49: Eucharist, things like that, really made it feel like a good, comfortable place to be.
11:54: But in terms of its quote -unquote non -denominational -ish sort of stream or emphasis,
12:00: I think kind of comes out of what I might call a meta -critique of denominationalism in the early 1900s, where it seemed like there might have been a lot of infighting when it seemed like maybe there could be more cooperation.
12:14: And so I kind of felt like there was a real friendliness to that reformed side of things, but at the same time giving people freedom and space to be able to work out some of these finer details in a biblical way, because there's too many faithful people like a
12:29: John Wesley. Even Charles Spurgeon would have praised John Wesley.
12:34: So they thought, well, we might as well try to find a way to organize ourselves so that both a Charles Spurgeon and a
12:39: John Wesley could labor side by side. And so it seemed like a safe place to land coming out of the
12:45: Eastern Church. Yeah, in fact, George Whitefield, as you likely know, a contemporary of John Wesley, they were friends, but Whitefield was a thoroughgoing
12:57: Calvinist, and obviously Wesley was not. And they had very heated exchanges.
13:06: And I'm probably revealing my bias here, but I don't think I am allowing a bias to warp my understanding of the relationship between the two.
13:17: But it seems to me that Whitefield was the more warm and compassionate and patient of the two in his rhetoric than Wesley was.
13:29: Wesley was more sharp and hard and severe in his criticisms of Whitefield than vice versa.
13:41: But Whitefield requested that Wesley preach at his funeral when he died.
13:47: And sure enough, John Wesley did. So that shows you the kind of friends and brothers they were who took their theological differences extremely seriously, but at the same time recognized that those issues did not destroy a unity in Christ because of what they shared in common in their beliefs about the gospel and our
14:12: Savior. That's what brotherly love is for, right? That's right.
14:17: Brothers push against each other. That's right. Well, I'm going to tell our listeners right now to please go to your
14:25: Gmail account or whatever email service you use, or pick up your cell phone or however you communicate with your family, friends, and loved ones.
14:36: If they are Eastern Orthodox, if they're dabbling in Eastern Orthodoxy, and even if they are
14:44: Roman Catholic or dabbling in converting to Roman Catholicism from Protestantism, there is a lot in common, even though there are significant differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.
14:56: But I would contact those people and tell them to tune in to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio right now at ironsharpensironradio .com.
15:05: And that's where we live stream globally. Of course, if you are living in Lake City, Florida, you can hear us at 90 .1
15:14: FM on Grace Life Radio. But have your family, friends, and loved ones listen to this conversation, especially if they are in Eastern Orthodoxy or contemplating converting to it.
15:27: And if you have a question for Joshua Shuping, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
15:33: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state and country of residence.
15:40: So let's start, Joshua, in the home in which you were raised and the theological atmosphere of that home.
15:51: Oh, yes. My dad was a son of a minister. So he was a
15:57: PK. So my grandfather, who passed away before I was ever born, he was a
16:02: United Brethren minister before they joined the United and helped to form the United Methodists.
16:09: So my dad would avoid church religiously. He would joke he was not a man of faith, a very good father, a man of integrity, but not a churchman.
16:21: My mom was a searcher. She looked for faith her whole life and had me baptized in the
16:28: Methodist Church when I was a young boy around 11, 12 years old. Would this have been a liberal Methodist congregation or a more biblically faithful one?
16:37: Well, I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference at the time, and this would have been in the early 90s before a lot of this happened.
16:48: And some of the pieces that I can put together is that it would have been more theologically conservative.
16:55: So thank God for that, but I don't know if that congregation is still following a biblical way or not.
17:03: But at the time, you know, I'm in Sunday school. I'm coloring pictures of Noah's Ark with the happy, smiling animals and things like that.
17:13: So I had a very, very rudimentary introduction to Christianity.
17:19: By the time I'm in middle school and high school, all of my best friends or pretty much all of my best friends are all
17:25: Christians. And so I'm attending church with them. I'm going to youth group at a neighborhood local church.
17:32: I believe it was a Grace Brethren Church and also went to Young Life a lot during high school, went to a camp.
17:40: But I was never a believer at the time. I was really shared. People shared with me the love of Jesus.
17:47: But in terms of, like, getting kind of deeper into theology, there were very few answers, few and far between.
17:55: And so it kind of left me with nowhere mentally to anchor into the
18:00: Christian faith. And so by the time I'm getting into my late teens, early 20s,
18:05: I'm drifting off. There was probably only two or three years that I didn't attend church, but I was drifting off into Eastern philosophy and theology and studying those sorts of things.
18:17: And so it wasn't until my wife and I in my late 20s, both of our late 20s, and our son was on the way that God really started moving kind of mightily in my life.
18:30: And he put a Reformed Baptist evangelist in my way. Yeah, we were both at a used bookstore, a great used bookstore in Fern Park, Florida, Bright Light Books.
18:42: If anyone is in Florida, I highly recommend going to Bright Light Books, the best used Christian book selection that I've really ever been at.
18:49: They have a whole wall of books that are just theology and then a whole wall of books that are just New Testament and Old Testament commentaries.
18:58: You know, a whole section of Christian living, a whole large bookcase just on missions or on evangelism, just a tremendous used bookstore, very sweet people.
19:08: So I have a book problem. I don't know if anybody can tell by the books that I sometimes have behind me.
19:14: Only you and I see each other. This is an audio -only interview. So if anyone checks out any of the interviews that I've done where you can see what's behind me,
19:23: I definitely have a book problem. So I would frequent this bookstore regularly.
19:31: And next to me, I have a handful of books in my hand. A gentleman standing next to me has a handful of books in his hand.
19:38: We start talking. What you got? What you got? And he ends up kind of walking through something similar, approximating
19:47: Ray Comfort's kind of good person test. I grew up in and around church.
19:53: I'm able to name several of the Ten Commandments, but he was able to apply it to me, to my conscience in a way.
19:59: And God really started working together with his word there. And we started attending the
20:06: Reformed Baptist Church there with him as God's just kind of unlocking the truth of who he is in a very real way, very lively way to my conscience.
20:18: But because of my background, I still was having a hard time kind of connecting in terms of some of the theology.
20:26: And so I start reading. Well, let me research more of history. Let me research more of theology. I have a
20:33: B .A. in humanities in a history department from Rollins College in Florida, Winter Park, Florida.
20:40: Great school. And so let me start looking into the history of the church, the history of this, the history of that.
20:46: And somehow I start coming across Eastern Orthodox apologetic materials, instructional materials like famous ones written by Callistos Ware called the
20:56: Orthodox Church. And I'm starting to read through the history. And so now I'm starting to get into the middle of some of the disputes between East and West, between the churches.
21:08: And I was absolutely unprepared to really understand the development of the historical arguments coming from the late
21:17: Middle Ages into the Reformation era all the way up into a present day.
21:23: In this case, it would have been a Reformed Baptist expression of the church. Those arguments are so technical.
21:30: I really do believe that they require a lot of deep study, a lot of having a very neutral mind to be able to understand the sides of arguments and to be able to weigh them out and to understand the cultural forces at work, the theological forces that are at work.
21:46: And then on the other side, I'm looking at this Eastern Orthodox thing that's saying we're historical. We've never changed.
21:52: We're very mystical. We have all the great theologians, all of this kind of stuff. We gave it.
21:58: We gave you the Bible, all of these kinds of ultimately specious arguments.
22:03: But if you're half educated, which I was, I mean a bachelor's degree and growing up around churches, now
22:10: I'm falling for these kinds of arguments. And so the guy, the friendly elder at the
22:16: Reformed Baptist Church is saying, well, when you go to this Orthodox church, do you guys have images? And I said, well, yeah, there's images there.
22:24: He's trying to warn me, right? And he's doing his due diligence. He says, do people kiss these images or bow in front of them?
22:31: And I said, yeah, they do. And he said, OK, well, let's open up to Isaiah or let's open up to Jeremiah.
22:36: He's walking me through these areas about idolatry. And then I fell for this kind of line of questioning where it was like, well, do
22:44: I take your statement for it or theirs? And so he's showing me scripture.
22:52: They're showing me an unbroken tradition of all of this. And so it's like, well, you know,
22:59: I guess I'm going to go with the people who have been saying the same thing for the last 2 ,000 years. By the way,
23:04: I want to alert our listeners that you used air quotes when you said unbroken tradition, because perhaps if we're doing an audio only since we are doing an audio only, you would have phrased it an alleged unbroken tradition.
23:21: Yes, yes. Thank you for reminding me of that. That's quite right. Yeah. An alleged unbroken tradition of, you know, utilizing imagery.
23:31: And so that, and then with the seeming fracturing within the
23:37: Protestant churches where there's denominations all over the place, not understanding that there's a deeper underlying unity that actually all denominations will usually, almost all denominations will bear witness to in an affirmation of the
23:51: Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed, etc. So I thought denominationalism was a sign of brokenness rather than a sign of diversity with an underlying deeper unity, which
24:01: I believe that denominationalism really truly does represent. And I would distinguish between schism and separation or division and separation.
24:11: So we entered in lock, stock, and barrel, having frankly been converted through the
24:18: Reformed Baptist Church, but then kind of very quickly sliding into the
24:25: Eastern Orthodox Church. So I have these kind of like evangelical glasses that are filtering out a huge amount of Eastern Orthodox noise is what
24:36: I'd call it now. You'd call it now. Not then, obviously. Yeah.
24:42: And I think the evangelical heart is very generous. And so when a generous evangelical heart walks into an
24:51: Eastern Orthodox setting, they're going to hear things that a native
24:56: Eastern Orthodox person would be stressing that the evangelical glasses would de -stress.
25:05: And so the Eastern Orthodox liturgy is filled with biblical quotes, but they'll also say at the end of some of their prayers that they do back and forth between the priest or deacon and the congregation, they'll conclude that series of prayers with,
25:24: Most Holy Theotokos, save us. And they'll say that at the end repeatedly throughout their church services.
25:33: And so a generous evangelical spirit who doesn't want to be suspicious is going to say, well, what does that mean?
25:41: And the friendly Orthodox priest, that's air quotes, your informative, evangelistically -minded
25:50: Orthodox priest is going to say, oh, we don't mean salvation save. We mean just like situational salvation.
25:59: But then when you start digging into their actual canonical documents, their actual dogmatically binding hymns, you find out that they really do mean that Mary is a saving agent.
26:13: But I'm not reading it that way. So I accept the explanation at face value.
26:19: They're not digging into the depths of the fine details of their canons and dogmas and stuff like that.
26:25: And so you just kind of enter in and you kind of find your way around.
26:30: It's all different. It's all exotic. It's all Eastern. So then if you're a smart person and you read your way in there, you feel smart.
26:37: You feel cool. I found the best -kept secret in all of Christendom. And so it kind of also feeds into kind of a secret pride that a lot of converts have about feeling like they were sort of sophisticated in finding this
26:52: Eastern thing. So I know I've been talking a lot. I apologize if you don't know anything. No, no. I always have a rule that my guests who are the experts on a subject we're discussing should have their voices heard for longer periods of time than my own voice.
27:11: I am not a Mike Hogg, even though I'm the host of this program. So you don't have to apologize for that at all. We have to go to our first commercial break, and we'll pick up where you left off there.
27:21: You were specifically talking about Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the
27:26: Eastern Orthodox approach to her. If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question, we do have some people who have submitted questions already who are waiting for your responses to them.
27:38: But if you'd like to join those folks and get in line, our e -mail address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
27:44: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
27:55: USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
28:02: Let's say you are Eastern Orthodox. You're starting to question the beliefs of your own religion.
28:08: Perhaps you were even raised in this religion, and you are starting to read the scriptures. You're starting to hear evangelical and theologically reformed evangelists and teachers and scholars and theologians really reveal to you what the true teachings of the scripture are and what the gospel truly is.
28:30: And you're starting to wonder if you are in the right place in Eastern Orthodoxy, and you're not ready to identify yourself as being on that journey.
28:40: Well, we understand that. And it might be the other way around. You might be an evangelical
28:45: Protestant or a Roman Catholic or somebody of another religion outside of Eastern Orthodoxy, and you're contemplating converting to Eastern Orthodoxy.
28:56: And you're not ready to reveal your identity at this point. We understand those things would compel you to remain anonymous.
29:02: But if it's just a general question that you have on Eastern Orthodoxy, on the scripture, on history, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.
29:15: We'll be right back with Joshua Schuping after these messages, so please do not go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
29:34: I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the
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42:05: When we left for the break, Joshua, you were discussing an
42:13: Eastern Orthodox approach or understanding of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and you were talking about how a spin was put on some of the more frightening teachings about Mary embraced by Eastern Orthodoxy that would repel an evangelical
42:36: Protestant mindset that would make an evangelical much more hesitant, leery, frightened, to even consider investigating
42:44: Eastern Orthodoxy as a place where they would find a spiritual home, and they would put a spin on that to make it more palatable to someone who is not from a background or who has not embraced a background where Mary is put on such a high and lofty place in the role of salvation as both the
43:06: Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church do. But if you could pick up where you left off there. Yeah, so to kind of,
43:13: I think, sum up what I would say is the problem there in their approach or what happens to evangelicals or others as they start to enter into the
43:23: Eastern Orthodox Church is what I would call theological impressionism.
43:29: If people are familiar in the art world with impressionism, you know, it's a way of doing art that almost tells you more about how the artist saw it than rather what the thing is itself.
43:42: It's not trying to be anatomically, physiologically correct. It's just trying to portray in art how the sunset struck that person.
43:52: And it's a great way to make beautiful art. But I think some people have a similar method in terms of their theology, where it's like they hear that expression,
44:03: Oh, well, what do you mean most holy Theotokos save us? And then the priest or the friendly other person comes and says,
44:11: Oh, well, we don't really mean it that way, or it's really sweet. Or in terms of kissing icons, it's, oh, it's just like kissing a picture of, you know, like a soldier away at war looks at at night the picture of his family that he left continents away.
44:24: And he just gives a kiss to the picture as kind of like a gesture of love towards the absent family.
44:31: And they'll try to give these kind of impressionistic explanations of these things to kind of dull the conscience.
44:38: And by the way, Theotokos means mother of God, correct? Yeah, literally it means
44:44: God bearer. You know that she bore God in her womb. There's another word for like mother that would be more of like anatomical mother or something like that.
44:55: So Theotokos is God bearer. But it often gets translated as mother too.
45:01: That's an acceptable way of translating that Greek phrase as well. But the antidote, in my opinion, is sort of what
45:09: I introduce in my book, what I call the canonical argument. It's a way to dispel,
45:14: I think, that sort of hypnosis of impressionism. And that's getting into the weeds a little bit of what their actual rules and canons and formally stated dogmas say.
45:26: Because the Eastern Orthodox Church has a very particular way of establishing what they consider truth versus error through these councils and through the decrees that they give, and then through the hymns and things that they sing.
45:40: Those are two binding sources of dogma. And then in a shelf just below that is what
45:47: I would call your pillar saints who are the main sort of teachers of the
45:54: Church historically. So, for example, to take the claim, you know, most
45:59: Holy Theotokos, that it just means a kind of situational salvation. Well, their universal teacher in the
46:07: Eastern Orthodox Church, one of them, his name is Gregory Palamas in 13th, 14th century.
46:13: He, for example, says of Mary in one of his homilies about a feast day of her, he said that she is the sacred starting point of the spiritual
46:25: Israel, by which I mean all Christian people, because she was the cause of him who is above all causality, and through him she lifted men up from the earth and rendered them heavenly.
46:41: So they see that she is actually an agent of salvation, that she lifts mankind up through Jesus.
46:50: But they have other kinds of, he has other kinds of statements, where he'll say, for example, that the virgin queen of all brought her fellow human beings into subjection to herself and ruled over them.
47:09: So they see her as bringing all of humanity in some sense under subjection to herself.
47:15: They even say that she represents and bestows everything good, and I'm quoting
47:22: Gregory Palamas, and that she fulfills the same role as regards virtue for those living virtuously, as the sun does in relation to visible light for those who live by it.
47:35: So in other words, just as the sun makes it so it's possible for us to see, she's the one who makes it possible for us to live virtuously.
47:46: And it's also because she bestows these things. For example, she alone, he says, forms the boundary between created and uncreated nature.
47:59: And then he says, and no one can come to God except through her and the mediator born of her.
48:07: And none of God's gifts can be bestowed on angels or men except through her.
48:14: So it's an incredibly profound understanding of – it's an incredibly profound view of Mary's role as savior that they take.
48:26: So it's not just a situational salvation that she's just a good – she prays in heaven for us and she helped us to avoid the car accident, or she helped the army win the battle.
48:37: They actually believe that that's how she functions in the saving scheme of God's economy.
48:46: Not even angels can receive blessings except through her. It even says that – he even says, no one was capable of putting an end to the sinful impulse which brings destruction on all men alike, or to the uncheckable rush of our race towards hell.
49:05: Uh -oh, but when the holy virgin maid, that's Mary, heard and understood this, she was filled with pity for humanity.
49:13: And with the aim of finding a remedy to counteract this great affliction, she resolved at once to turn with her whole mind to God.
49:22: She took it upon herself to represent us, to constrain him,
49:27: God, who is above compulsion, and quickly draw him towards us that he might remove the curse from among us.
49:35: In other words, Mary, according to this main universal teacher within the
49:40: Eastern Orthodox Church, essentially represented us to God to bring Jesus Christ down.
49:47: She's the actual cause of the incarnation. What are you reading? Forgive me if you've already mentioned this, but what are you reading to explain to us these
49:58: Eastern Orthodox concepts? So this is from a book of collected homilies of Gregory Palamas, one of the main saints whose very theology was enshrined in some later councils about how they think about ascetical theology, about how they think of spiritual disciplines.
50:18: So Gregory Palamas is one of the most universally authoritative teachers in all of Eastern Orthodoxy.
50:26: And this is from Homily 53, from a collected work of his homilies, on their feast day of the entry of the
50:35: Theotokos. They believe that Mary literally lived from three years old in the
50:40: Holy of Holies in the temple in Jerusalem. So even though the priest would only go in there once, the high priest, once a year, they believe, according to their dogmatic hymns they sing, that she lived in there for years and years and was fed by angels until she was to give birth to Jesus.
50:58: And so while she was living in there, she was making these mystical ascents to heaven to draw
51:05: Jesus Christ down to be incarnated. Yeah, this really diminishes the whole humility of Mary, a servant of God who was the vehicle through which
51:21: God brought us the God -man, Jesus in the flesh.
51:28: Well, here, listen to this. He even says that, having thought over these things so relevant to her, the
51:35: Virgin, full of grace, interceded for all humanity prior to the incarnation in an amazing way, defying description, seeking to converse persuasively and honestly with God, to whom she came to God, she went to God, and it says here,
51:50: I quote, a self -appointed ambassador. Wow. Now, you mentioned before, when you first had a
52:02: Christian conversion experience, it was through the friendship and teaching of a
52:10: Reformed Baptist, and you were talking about how when you were being introduced to Eastern Orthodoxy, those
52:18: Protestant glasses never completely fell off your face, and you were starting to swallow the spin, which was giving you a softer approach to Mary than the
52:33: Eastern Orthodox dogma would really teach, something more palatable to Protestants.
52:42: But when we come back from the break, because we have to go to our midway break right now, I want you to talk about what was going on in your mind when you began to discover things like you are reading right now.
52:54: Were you suppressing the alarm bells going off in your head? Were you just constantly buying the spin that these things should be adopted and believed just because of the alleged historic pedigree of your church?
53:11: They must be right, they're the true church, and even if this seems to contradict everything I know about the
53:17: Bible, I can't question this church because it's the ancient church. Tell us more about that when we return, and if anybody, as I said before, has questions for Joshua Schuping, and I still haven't gotten around to addressing any of our listener questions yet, but we will get to you, please be patient.
53:33: But if you want to get in line with your question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,
53:40: give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
53:46: USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
53:52: We'll be right back with Joshua Schuping, so don't go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
54:10: I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the
54:18: G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.
54:32: I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.
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55:06: Chris Arnson, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the
55:11: G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the
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55:47: I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.
55:53: I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,
55:59: Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
56:06: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
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56:30: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.
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01:01:08: John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the
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01:03:42: Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.
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01:04:27: Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.
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01:07:28: Before I return to my fascinating interview with the former Eastern Orthodox priest,
01:07:34: Joshua Schuping, I have some very important announcements to make. If you really love this show, folks, and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves,
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01:09:45: Christian and Missionary Alliance Church of Russellville, Arkansas, I have extensive lists spanning the globe, and no matter where you live on the planet
01:09:52: Earth, I may be able to help you find a church, as I have done with many people in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio all over the world, sometimes finding them churches within just a couple of minutes from where they live.
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01:10:12: I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in your question to Joshua Schuping on Eastern Orthodoxy, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
01:10:22: As you may recall, Joshua, before we went to the midway break, you were talking about some very revealing teachings of the
01:10:34: Eastern Orthodox religion that you cannot if you're really going to be honest with what you are reading or hearing, you have to come to the conclusion, if you know anything about the scriptures, that this is an idolatrous view and practice and practices of Mary and how to approach her and venerate her.
01:11:03: And my question to you before we went to the break was you were wearing, as you said earlier, your
01:11:11: Protestant glasses during your conversion experience to Eastern Orthodoxy.
01:11:17: When in a timeline did you start to hear these irrefutable teachings, irrefutable that they are idolatrous, rather than a softer version with a spin on it that is more palatable to Protestants?
01:11:37: When in your journey did you start to hear these more in -depth teachings about Mary?
01:11:45: It's a good question. One of the things that really happens in that softening is the sort of hand -waving that can kind of happen using words like types and shadows.
01:11:59: So they'll use that sort of language or even literary terms, like these are sort of theological poetics that are said about Mary to kind of venerate her.
01:12:14: Because Scripture says that she'll be, you know, they will call her blessed, all generations will call her blessed.
01:12:20: So they see that as kind of a fulfillment of that Scriptural side of things. And so it's like they just kind of inflate the balloon, like a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more.
01:12:31: And it's such a slow process that the only image that kind of comes to my mind is there's an old sort of teaching story about a pile of stones.
01:12:42: When does a pile of stones become a pile of stones? If I just take one stone and I throw it down on the ground, that's not a pile.
01:12:51: But if I just throw one more stone down there, well, that's, I mean, just adding one more stone doesn't make it a pile.
01:12:57: Now if I just throw one more stone down there, now I've got three stones. Well, if two stones wasn't a pile, then three stones shouldn't be a pile.
01:13:06: Well, if I throw one more, it won't be a pile. And it kind of keeps going to the point where you actually have this gigantic pile of stones, but through that kind of like sequential reasoning process, you've somehow explained it all away as not a pile of stones.
01:13:23: And so, I'd have to say that for me experientially, where the biggest crack started to kind of happen was around the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement or vicarious atonement.
01:13:36: Yeah, that's right at the heart of the gospel. Yeah, and so of course in the
01:13:41: Reformed Baptist Church where I was at, I mean, the pastor, he was proclaiming that strongly, vigorously, clearly, with great vigor and verve.
01:13:53: And yet that sounded very striking to me. God is angry. Oh, sinners trying to kind of square a lot of what does that mean?
01:14:02: There is a lot of nuance coming out of kind of like a secular mindset into trying to understand those sorts of things.
01:14:10: And so while I'm engaging with Eastern Orthodox apologists, they're saying, oh, we don't teach that.
01:14:15: That's very Western. That's very legalistic. That was all invented by Anselm. And so we have this kind of like mystical
01:14:23: Christus Victor. Christ just conquers death. And so it almost seems like you can kind of believe in Jesus without believing in the
01:14:32: Atonement in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Wow. And this is very serious because you are talking about things that are salvific.
01:14:47: Yeah, yeah. And because Christus Victor is not actually technically, I would say, an
01:14:52: Atonement theory, because defeating death doesn't atone for anything. Right. Because it does nothing with sin.
01:14:59: And so then you get onto this ascetical theology, spiritual disciplines, hamster wheel, where you start preparing and working yourself to unite yourself with God.
01:15:09: So rather than beginning with union with Christ and faith, you know, they kind of place it more towards the end as like a super perfection.
01:15:18: So I'm at seminary and I'm kind of reading through some of these theologians, these church fathers who predated
01:15:26: Anselm, by the way, and I'm reading this kind of penal substitutionary language that Christ stood in our place and on our behalf, that He suffered the wrath of God, that He bore the penalty in Himself.
01:15:42: And I'm like, you know what? I kind of left the Western Church when they were using this language, but now
01:15:48: I'm finding it here. Maybe it is scriptural. And to make it clear, when we get our— when our skin begins to crawl and we start to get upset about a false teaching about what
01:16:08: Christ accomplished on the cross, we're not talking about how dare you disagree with our technical theological understanding of what the
01:16:20: Bible teaches about the death of Christ. We're talking about what are you trusting in?
01:16:26: Are you trusting solely in Christ, which would mean that you believe
01:16:32: Christ and His death was powerful enough to accomplish what it was intended to do, or are you saying that Christ and His death were so weak in its power that it required human beings to somehow cooperate with it in order to actually produce the results, which would be salvation?
01:16:57: Am I making sense here? Yeah. And we can even find in saints who have only—or not saints,
01:17:05: Eastern Orthodox elders that are considered holy elders, you know, writing out whole paragraphs that in order to be saved you have to strive with every nerve and fiber of your being to be able to be saved.
01:17:19: Like, it's like, who is going to be saved? There's very little assurance. Like, the doctrine of assurance really falls flat in the
01:17:26: Eastern Orthodox Church. And it would even be considered like a great, great spiritual achievement only for the highest level monks, essentially, to be able to reach any kind of actual assurance of faith and assurance of salvation.
01:17:42: And so when I'm finding out that penal substitutionary atonement is clearly taught,
01:17:48: I mean explicitly taught in—not that word, penal substitutionary atonement, that title developed over the course of centuries of theological growth and precision of what's actually happening in the atonement.
01:18:03: But you see in John Chrysostom, you know, that this image of the Son taking the place of the convicted criminal.
01:18:13: And then John Chrysostom would be a saint that evangelical
01:18:18: Protestants, Roman Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox all claim as their own hero. We all agree with that.
01:18:25: And here you are revealing that Chrysostom seems to be much more in agreement with those who would centuries later be called
01:18:36: Reformers. Oh yeah, very much so. I would even say that the
01:18:41: Reformers in some measure recovered the patristic doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement.
01:18:49: So for me, as I'm starting to study this out patristically, and scripturally too, of course, and finding out that, you know, wait a second, the
01:18:59: West isn't crazy. It's starting to kind of help me to understand that there's a little bit more to listen to here, and it started to make me doubt the contemporary presentation of orthodoxy by its own members.
01:19:14: All right, let's start taking some of our listener questions before we run out of time and don't take any of them. We have someone who has been a guest on this program a number of times, a convert from Mormonism to Christianity, Dr.
01:19:29: Latane C. Scott from Albuquerque, New Mexico. She asks, now, she's not specific what she means by this question.
01:19:39: She asks, what role do creeds have in solidifying the faith of new believers?
01:19:45: I don't know if she's asking what you personally believe now in regard to that question, or what do the
01:19:53: Eastern Orthodox teach about that? So you could give us both answers, since she didn't specify. What role do creeds have in solidifying the faith of new believers?
01:20:02: I think creeds are essential from a pastoral theological perspective.
01:20:09: I think being able to identify a summary or a condensing of the faith is how we identify the analogy of faith.
01:20:19: It's how we identify the scope of what we believe, and it helps us to be able to not get imbalanced in our theology so that we don't become, well,
01:20:29: I believe in the Bible, but all of my Christian focus is on the end times, for example.
01:20:34: Some people kind of get lost in cul -de -sacs there. So that's systematic theology as being an expansion of a creed.
01:20:44: And so I think creeds and confessions are an essential part of a healthy
01:20:52: Christian life of discipleship. Yes, of a healthy
01:20:57: Christian life. I would perhaps push back a little bit, when it comes to myself, on the word essential.
01:21:05: I think that the Scriptures are essential. The God -breathed words in the
01:21:12: Bible are essential. And creeds and confessions, when they are properly framed and they are reflecting what the
01:21:19: Bible truly teaches, they are extremely helpful. I don't know if I would ever call them essential, but perhaps you and I could have a debate about that later at some point.
01:21:30: But creeds and confessions, in fact, everybody has a creed and a confession because even the statement,
01:21:39: I have no creed or confession but the Bible, is a creedal statement. So you can't get around that.
01:21:47: In fact, the denominations that began with wonderful, beautiful, and biblical creeds and confessions, like the
01:21:56: Presbyterian Church, they did not become corrupt in their theology and practice until they disregarded those confessions.
01:22:07: I'm speaking specifically of the PCUSA and other liberal
01:22:12: Presbyterian denominations which created the necessity that solid and biblically faithful Presbyterian denominations like the
01:22:20: Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination and others had to come into existence to combat those apostate ideas.
01:22:31: Yeah. And I would agree with you too in maintaining sola scriptura as, you know, theologically and dogmatically essential.
01:22:42: And I don't mean to be too subtle perhaps, but that's the little bit of nuance that I put in there is pastorally.
01:22:50: Now you said that about your own beliefs, but what about the Eastern Orthodox teaching on creeds? Because Latane did not specify what she meant by the question, whether she was asking for your view or the
01:23:02: Eastern Orthodox view. Well, I mean certainly it's at the heart of, you know, Eastern Orthodox expression of faith.
01:23:10: I mean they try to take very seriously the Nicene, Constantinopolitan creed. It's one of the ways that they organize if they have a catechism.
01:23:20: They'll usually organize those in some sense accounting for the creed.
01:23:26: And so yeah, I guess I'm having a little bit of a hard time mapping the question because yes, certainly they sing the
01:23:33: Nicene Creed every Sunday or recite the Nicene Creed at every liturgy.
01:23:40: And so yeah, it's a very important part of the Eastern Orthodox self -understanding, and it does take a fairly lively role,
01:23:49: I think, in their self -understanding. Let me say a couple of things before we move on to other questions from the listeners.
01:23:58: I'm assuming you share my belief that this is not a secondary or tertiary area of importance where we are just discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and we're not discussing things like, well,
01:24:15: I don't agree with Eastern Orthodox priests wearing elaborate robes, and I don't believe in the
01:24:23: Eastern Orthodox, including incense in their worship, and icons. We're talking about things that are actually salvific here.
01:24:32: And this is where salvation is at stake here. Now, I believe you and I would both agree that yes, there are
01:24:42: Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox individuals who are regenerate and born again by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, but they are saved in spite of the false religion they are in, rather than because of it.
01:24:59: Am I making sense there? Yeah, I think that's correct. I think they have departed from the purity of the
01:25:06: Gospel through that Mariological issue that we discussed. I think through their iconology, they do as well.
01:25:14: Agreed. And another thing I want to make clear, because there will be people who are either
01:25:19: Eastern Orthodox or ecumenists who are listening, and they'll say, boy, that guy
01:25:25: Chris Arntzen, or maybe even that guy Chris and Joshua Schuping, they're really being nasty.
01:25:30: They're being mean -spirited because they're judging other people as to whether or not they're truly
01:25:36: Christian, and this is horrible. Well, we should make it clear also that the Eastern Orthodox are very extremely sectarian, much more so, it seems, than the majority, if not all, evangelicals are.
01:25:53: And there is no salvation outside of Eastern Orthodoxy in the minds of most Eastern Orthodox, especially those who are in the clergy, in the hierarchy.
01:26:03: And although we would say if you deny the Biblical Gospel, you're lost, if you deny the
01:26:09: Biblical Christ, you're lost, we're not saying if you're not a Baptist, you're lost, if you're not a member of the
01:26:16: Christian and Missionary Alliance Church, you're lost, if you're not a Presbyterian, you're lost. There's a difference, isn't there?
01:26:22: Yeah, and I think that they go to such a different degree in that sort of claim, that it has to be,
01:26:29: I think, taken very seriously. In their Jerusalem Council of 1672, they say if you're not under a bishop, and if you're not a part of the
01:26:38: Eastern Church, you are not even a Christian. So they deny that there are even actual
01:26:45: Christians outside of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and they will even state that if you don't use the same kind of bread that they use, leavened bread in the
01:26:58: Eucharist, then you're also accursed and going to hell. And so, as Protestants, I don't know of any
01:27:06: Protestants that actually assign a curse to anyone. The highest level of disciplinary measure that we use is an excommunication at the pastoral level.
01:27:18: But the Eastern Orthodox Church goes another level by assigning people to hell through what they call an anathema, which in their canonical law books, their canonical summary books, they say is equivalent to the human death penalty.
01:27:33: So they believe, the Eastern Orthodox Church, that they're the only church that exists, no one else is even a
01:27:39: Christian, and that people who are heretics or people who are outside or violate something that they think is proper, like bowing and kissing images, they don't just merely excommunicate them, they make an additional step to say that you're assigned to perdition because they have the keys of the kingdom.
01:28:00: So it's not just keys to unlock people for forgiveness, they have the keys to lock people in hell.
01:28:08: And that's another one of the huge spins that almost so many priests will say, there are few honest priests, but there are some out there, but an anathema to them means to curse someone to hell.
01:28:21: And they define it that way, the councils define it that way, and their canon law books define it that way.
01:28:27: And so they lock people out of heaven if they don't bow down and kiss icons. So when we say, oh, we disagree with an
01:28:34: Eastern Orthodox person, and we think that they're going against the Gospel, we're not cursing them. We're not sending them to hell.
01:28:40: We're not claiming that we have that kind of authority. And in fact, we're generous to say that we actually believe that there are regenerate
01:28:48: Christians, as you affirmed, Chris, in the Eastern Orthodox Church life. There are real
01:28:54: Christians there, but it's not a two -way street. Now, let me give a little pushback to that.
01:29:01: How are we to obey the Apostle Paul as Protestants, for instance,
01:29:06: Bible -believing Christians, when someone presents to us a Gospel, even a false
01:29:12: Gospel, like the Eastern Orthodox Gospel, the Roman Catholic Gospel, a pure works righteousness
01:29:19: Pelagian Gospel. Paul said, let them be anathema, and he was speaking to the
01:29:25: Church of Galatia. How are we to follow his instructions if we do not anathematize?
01:29:31: Not that we have the power to actually curse someone to hell, but how are we to specifically approach these people with a false
01:29:39: Gospel as Paul instructed us to, when he says, let them be anathema? I think we approach them from our faith, and we say, this is what we believe, what
01:29:49: Scripture teaches. We stand on Scripture alone. We confess that we're saved by grace alone, in Christ alone, through faith alone, for God's glory alone, and then we try to reason with them.
01:30:01: In terms of our pastoral life as a Church, under the authority, the
01:30:06: God -given authority structures that we have, we can excommunicate people from fellowship within our
01:30:12: Church, but I would say in terms of what our role is, we actually don't have the authority to literally, and this is the
01:30:23: Orthodox claim, is they literally have the authority of God to send someone to hell through the power of anathema.
01:30:30: So they have a different spin, a far more politically incorrect view than the modern spin of Romanism, which says, oh, you got it all wrong.
01:30:43: It just means that you can't be a member in good standing of the Roman Catholic Church. It doesn't mean you're going to hell.
01:30:48: It's not a curse. That's what all Roman Catholics today seem to be implying, unless you're in a traditionalist sect, a schismatic group, they all seem to be putting this
01:31:00: Vatican II spin on it where it's a softer thing, the anathema, the anathemas of Trent, and the
01:31:08: Eastern Orthodox are actually not putting a spin on it. They're saying they're using it the way
01:31:14: Paul used it, but they are using it for wrong reasons. They're the ones with the wrong gospel.
01:31:20: Yeah, I don't see Paul, you know, giving the authority to pronounce an anathema as like a continuous disposition that the
01:31:31: Church can maintain. Because, for example, and this is a very important area where people,
01:31:37: I think, would be very well served to use this canonical argument.
01:31:43: What do the canons say about what anathema means? Because if you ask many, many, many local priests, they're going to say, oh, anathema just means something medicinal.
01:31:54: Anathema doesn't mean what it sounds like. But when you read the councils, when you read canonical textbooks that actually define what anathema means, it means like the unique ability of the
01:32:07: Church to be able to assign a person a place in hell because it's equivalent to the death penalty.
01:32:13: So it's such a serious thing, but so many Eastern Orthodox priests and theologians will try to downplay and soft -pedal that.
01:32:23: And they'll deceive people. I mean, they will. They really will. Let me go to Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.
01:32:31: Oh, by the way, Latane, you've won a free copy of the book that we are addressing, Disillusioned Why I Left the
01:32:37: Eastern Orthodox Priesthood and Church by our guest Joshua Schuping. And we'll have cvbbs .com,
01:32:43: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Grady says, Greetings, brothers.
01:32:48: I have been friends with two families that are Greek and also go to a Greek Orthodox Church, which
01:32:54: I understand is the same as the Eastern Orthodox Church. It seems that every time I'm around them,
01:32:59: I have to talk to several of them because they're a close family.
01:33:05: I've given them gospel tracts, but never have been able to have a conversation about the gospel.
01:33:12: What's the best way to approach them, especially when there's two or more of them when you're in a conversation?
01:33:22: I think really simple, basic questions are probably the best way to go about this in the beginning so that you can start to have spiritual conversations with them.
01:33:32: Like, who is Jesus? What did he accomplish on the cross? And start getting them to really engage with that so then you can use that as an entry place for the
01:33:44: Bible. And then you can start to bring the Scriptures in and then to start to ask them some more, because you'll be developing relationship through this process more with spiritual conversations, biblical conversations.
01:33:56: You can start to bring Scripture in in a way that they won't feel challenged, but will allow them to really deeply reflect and consider the meaning of the questions that you're asking them.
01:34:07: We have Bebe in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who asks, What is the opinion of those in the hierarchy of both the
01:34:19: Eastern Orthodox churches and the Roman Catholic Church in regard to a recognition of validity of one another's sacraments?
01:34:32: In other words, I believe the questioner is asking, does the
01:34:37: Church of Rome accept Eastern Orthodox baptism and communion, and does the
01:34:44: Eastern Orthodox Church accept as valid Roman Catholic baptism and communion?
01:34:51: So my understanding of the Roman Catholic Church is that they'll accept baptism from, they'll accept many people's baptism.
01:34:59: As long as it's in the Triune name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yeah. And that position has kind of developed over the last 100 years since between Vatican I and Vatican II, and then following Vatican II, the
01:35:14: Roman Church is kind of trying to, I guess, be a little bit more open -minded towards non -Roman
01:35:21: Catholics. The Eastern Orthodox Church, however, doesn't really have any mechanism to actually authentically develop, so to speak, or unfold or unpack some of their canonical positions and doctrines and dogmas.
01:35:35: So according to the Eastern Orthodox canons, they actually reject and say that a person is accursed if they use unleavened bread in the
01:35:48: Eucharist. Now that's strange, since Jesus at the Last Supper obviously was using unleavened bread.
01:35:53: Yeah, they would say you're accursed for even having that belief. Really? Didn't they know that was a
01:35:59: Passover celebration? You would hope so, but they say you're even doubly accursed because it somehow agrees with the
01:36:08: Armenian Orthodox Church. So, yeah, believing that Christ used unleavened bread is worthy to go to hell, according to the
01:36:17: Eastern Orthodox canons. Actually, you just touched on a point of another listener question.
01:36:24: We have Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks, is there anything of significance that differentiates the different Eastern Orthodox churches that are identified by their ethnicity, such as the
01:36:40: Russian, the Greek, etc.? Today there is a schism between Constantinople, who's over the
01:36:50: Greek Orthodox Church, and the Russian Orthodox Church. There's currently a schism between them, but in terms of the
01:36:57: Eastern Orthodox Church in general, those various cultural expressions, you may find some lowercase t traditions that might distinguish them, but overall they're very much the same.
01:37:11: To go from one to the other is not really in their mind to go from one church to another. The real difference that you'll find would be between an
01:37:18: Eastern Orthodox Church and an Oriental Orthodox Church. That would be the Coptics, perhaps? Yeah, the
01:37:24: Coptic Orthodox Church is Oriental, also the Malankara, or Indian Orthodox Church, also the
01:37:30: Ethiopian Orthodox Church, those would be all considered Oriental Orthodox Churches. And they would be the primary victims of Islamic terrorism, aren't they?
01:37:41: Tragically, often so, yes. By the way, all of our listeners who have submitted questions have won a free copy of the book we are addressing,
01:37:51: Disillusioned, Why I Left the Eastern Orthodox Priesthood and Church, so make sure we have your mailing address, so cvbbs .com
01:37:59: can ship a copy out to you. We're going to our final break. It's going to be more brief than the other breaks.
01:38:05: Please send in your question immediately if you have one, chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:38:11: Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
01:38:17: USA. We'll be right back with Joshua Schuping. Don't go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
01:38:37: I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the
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01:47:19: Please visit us at truthloveparent .com Welcome back. Before I go to another listener question,
01:47:25: Joshua, is there something going on in Ukraine that is an example of splintering amongst the different ethnic
01:47:35: Eastern Orthodox groups? Definitely a question that may go above my pay grade.
01:47:46: You know, in terms of the Patriarch of Constantinople, he kind of unilaterally established a parallel state
01:47:56: Ukrainian Orthodox Church alongside what was already a long -existing indigenous
01:48:03: Eastern Orthodox Church in Ukraine to the point where now this
01:48:10: Constantinople incursion, the Patriarch's sort of incursion to create a state -supported
01:48:17: Ukrainian Orthodox Church is now marginalizing a lot of the indigenous Ukrainian Orthodox believers, and this was partially to help foment division within Ukraine according to some because the indigenous
01:48:33: Ukrainian Orthodox Church was in communion with the Russian Orthodox Church, so it's a royal mess.
01:48:41: We have an anonymous listener who says I have friends who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, and yet in their speech and attitude they appear to be very ecumenical.
01:48:52: In fact, I've also seen on numerous occasions in the media and on television where Eastern Orthodox clergy are participating publicly with Roman Catholics, Protestants, and others in ecumenical activities, celebrations, etc.
01:49:11: Are these Eastern Orthodox involved in these ecumenical approaches being dishonest in regard to that because of the fact as what you said earlier, there is no salvation according to their official teachings outside of Eastern Orthodoxy?
01:49:30: I believe that they're being inconsistent for sure, so I think there is a level of dishonesty, and ecumenism is a very lively debate right now within the
01:49:41: Eastern Orthodox churches. Some call it the pan -heresy, the great heresy of ecumenism that's taking over the
01:49:49: Eastern Orthodox Church so that they're sliding away from some of these canonical things.
01:49:56: An anonymous give me an email with your full name and address and you will receive Disillusioned Why I Left the
01:50:02: Eastern Orthodox Priesthood and Church by my guest today. It will be shipped out to you by cvbbs .com
01:50:08: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. RJ in White Plains, New York says,
01:50:15: The Roman Catholic Church seems to have an extremely wide spectrum of beliefs that even makes the division of Protestants pale into insignificance in comparison.
01:50:28: Is there such a spectrum among the Eastern Orthodox where you have very left -wing
01:50:33: Eastern Orthodox and very conservative and traditional Eastern Orthodox? Yes, for sure.
01:50:42: They're in Fordham University is a Catholic university for example that has an
01:50:47: Eastern Orthodox section that's within their school there and they have their
01:50:53: Eastern Orthodox theologians and teachers or whatever and they'll often promote very liberal agenda sorts of things sexuality queer theory and then you have extreme right people who are accused of being
01:51:08: Nazis, you know, so you've got all of it. Now, are any of these people with these extreme views a part of the ecclesiastical hierarchy because you mentioned teachers a teacher could be just an average person who might even be a nominal adherent to any religion so are there anybody who's actually in the clergy or a part of the hierarchy who have either those extreme left or right views?
01:51:34: Yes, certainly. There's a famous bishop, Luzar Pujalo who is very famously left -leaning.
01:51:45: Right now, typically a lot of them are very ecumenical ecumenism is very widespread in that sense and so there is a lot of for example, there was during the
01:52:00: Trump debates when all the Black Lives Matter things were going on, there was a lot of very pro -Black
01:52:08: Lives Matter sorts of things going on amongst the hierarchy there was a priest who famously went to a
01:52:16: Black Lives Matter Black Lives Matter rally who wasn't disciplined.
01:52:23: He went with his cassock and his cross, but then there was another priest, for example, who went in his civilian clothes to a
01:52:31: Trump rally and then he got defrocked. He got dismissed and disciplined. Wow. Thank you,
01:52:38: RJ. You've also won a free copy of the book. Make sure we have your complete mailing address.
01:52:45: We have Thomas in West Islet, New York. Thomas wants to know, are there any clergy that must make an oath to celibacy as occurs with all the clergy in Roman Catholicism?
01:53:05: Married men can become priests. So if you're a married man and you want to become a priest you can become one, but if you're a single man and you become a priest then you're sworn to celibacy.
01:53:16: Oh, really? So you either marry before or you don't get married after.
01:53:22: Wow. I didn't know that. So in other words there is no such thing as an Eastern Orthodox single priest who meets a beautiful young lady in the church and falls in love with her and marries her, unless he gets kicked out.
01:53:37: But remains in good standing as a priest. That doesn't occur. Correct. Oh, wow. I learned something there
01:53:43: I didn't know. I want to make sure that we drive home right now. And by the way,
01:53:48: Joshua, I definitely want you back for at least two more interviews, part two and part three on this, if you are interested, because we've just scratched the tip of the iceberg.
01:54:02: But I want to make it clear as much as I don't want anybody to think that we are guilty of bigotry and guilty of pride in regard to our own theological understanding, that we are not claiming to be the only
01:54:23: Christians on the face of the earth, at the same time, even though I don't want that to be the way people are leaving this program thinking of us, at the same time,
01:54:32: I want to make it clear that this is really a life and death situation. This is a heaven and hell situation.
01:54:40: This is, in my opinion, although the details might be different, not different from Paul's grief over some of the very people in the churches he planted becoming
01:54:55: Judaizers or deceived by them. Am I over the top for you or would you be in agreement with me?
01:55:02: I would be in agreement for what I think in that, in terms of Paul's warning about people being accursed by adding to the gospel, by adding works to the gospel, and the
01:55:14: Eastern Orthodox Church are very clear, so I don't think we're posturing in any way that they're going to hell because they're
01:55:21: Eastern Orthodox. I think ours is like a brotherly concern and warning over having an admixture to the gospel where now you have to bow down and kiss icons and otherwise you're going to hell.
01:55:33: That's a very scary thing to add to the gospel. I think that somewhat sounds like Judaizing and to connect that analogously with what
01:55:43: Paul was kind of warning against in Galatians. I've been accused of Roman Catholic friends, of which
01:55:51: I have many, for being mean -spirited and prideful and just way over the top sectarian, because I refuse to extend to them an open arms of brotherhood.
01:56:13: I have to say to them if they are following the gospel of Trent, they have a false gospel, and therefore
01:56:22: I can only say that I'm praying that they repent of that. I can be loving towards them, and must be loving towards them, and pray for them, and do good for them, and enjoy times of meals and entertainment and enjoyment, but to have an actual relationship as brothers in Christ, I cannot do that.
01:56:45: And the fact of the matter is that people who think that such a Protestant is the bad guy, they have to remember
01:56:53: Eastern Orthodox don't believe any salvation exists outside their own religion, and the
01:56:59: Roman Catholic Church has already, at the Council of Trent, centuries ago, after the
01:57:04: Reformation, pronounced anathemas upon me and everybody who agrees with me, who are heirs of the
01:57:11: Reformers. So, it's not like I started this fight, did I? Yeah, and I think it's a little bit inconsistent when we affirm that it's very possible for them to be saved, in other words, a part of the body of Christ, the mystical body of Christ, and then to accuse us of being ungenerous when we look at many of these anathemas and censures of us, of those outside of, for example here, the
01:57:40: Eastern Orthodox Church, there's definitely no mutuality. I feel like we extend way, way, way more generosity, but then how could we be accused of miserliness when we're giving the benefit of the doubt that they can be saved?
01:57:53: Yes, and of course, we have to repeat, though, that they can be saved in spite of their false gospel and religion that their
01:58:01: Church teaches, and that they either in ignorance accept the biblical gospel, or they in protest accept the biblical gospel and for one reason or another, and I think they're all wrong reasons, remain in the
01:58:20: Eastern Orthodox or Roman Church. In other words, you can't trust in yourself and human deeds and can be safe in your mind that you have peace with God.
01:58:31: Yeah, there would have to be some of those extenuating sorts of circumstances where it's like they're not, maybe they're not following the details of Trent, or they're not following the details of the
01:58:43: Second Nicene Council, or something like that, and somehow they just happen to hear the gospel, and they just believe it, and they didn't think much deeper about those things that would cause them to go too far afield of salvation.
01:58:56: Well, folks, if you want Joshua's book, if you haven't won it today, you can get that on Amazon, and that is
01:59:04: Disillusioned, Why I Left the Eastern Orthodox Church, Left the Eastern Orthodox Priesthood and Church, and I look forward to you returning for Part 2 and 3, at least, on this topic,
01:59:14: Joshua. I want to repeat, if you want to go to YouTube to find out more about what
01:59:21: Joshua has to offer in regard to his wealth of knowledge, you can hear his interviews with Dr.
01:59:27: Tony Costa at Toronto Apologetics on YouTube. And I want to repeat the website for the
01:59:35: Alliance Church of Russellville, russcma .org.
01:59:40: I want to thank all of you who have listened, especially who took the time to write. I hope you have a safe and blessed and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day.
01:59:50: I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.