Have Some Spiritual Gifts Ceased?

Hi, I'm Andrew Rappaport from the Christian Exhibit. Let me do that again, yikes. I'm all nervous for Justin here, that must be it.

Oh yes, I'm very intimidating.

Welcome to Apologetics Live

Welcome to Apologetics Live. We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the Bible. Meet your hosts from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew Rappaport, Dr. Anthony Silvestro and Pastor Justin Peters.

We are live, Apologetics Live here. I just had a little bit of a technical problem in the background, but you guys probably didn't notice that fortunately. But we do have, for that quick intro that we had there, we will be joined by none other than Mr. Justin Peters.

And so I figured that'd be appropriate to get that in there. So hello, Mr. Justin, how are you, sir?

Andrew, I'm doing okay. I've got a little bit of a cold, so folks might have to bear with me a little bit, but all in all, doing okay. COVID. Okay. I've already had COVID.

Seen there, done that, got the t-shirt. Seen there, done that, got the immunity. That's right. Hey, so for folks, this may be enjoyable. We do plan today, today's topic is, have some spiritual gifts ceased.

This is because if you remember two weeks ago, Justin, you were on two weeks ago and we had a gentleman, Michael Salmon. He was chatting with us, kept inviting him to come in and he didn't, but he afterwards, after you and I did a show, he ended up doing a response video, tagged me and I said, come on in and we can do a show.

And so we wanted to be able to interact with him, but before we do, there is someone backstage that maybe we can introduce folks to. I'm not sure who this is and what he may have as a question or challenge for us today, but it says his name is Anthony Silvestro.

Welcome, sir. What challenges or questions do you have for us tonight?

What do we do, obey God or defy tyrants? You know what? I'm repping my shirt from Cruciform Ministries, love this shirt. And at the gym today, yes, I do work out. It may not look like that all the time.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on.

Be honest. Would you consider a workout? Okay. Well, so my wife works out. You pick up this device and you sit there and you call people.

It's a whole lot easier to work out when I'm talking to somebody than to just run to nowhere on a treadmill. So, my wife spends two hours working out. I spent an hour and like 20 minutes working out and then I sit in the massage chair the rest of the time while she finishes up.

So, but today there was a young guy who was walking around with a shirt, black shirt that said unvaccinated. And I'm like, wow, that's old. Of course, I had to talk to him and a Christian guy who has just been upset with all the nonsense the last two years.

And so, he went out there and started making some t-shirts for people.

Oh, that's neat. So, we were actually, you know, in the news segment that we wanted to do is, and Justin and I were talking about this earlier today, is the fact that, you know, anyone who's listening, anyone who's watching, who's black, which we're, I guess we're not allowed to say now because we can say black and brown people instead of African American.

It changes every couple of years. But anyone who's black, who voted for Biden, if you want to know what he thinks of you, he made it clear this week because what he thinks is you want crack pipes because that's what he is going to have taxpayer dollars to fund.

That, in my mind, made it crystal clear what he really thinks about the people who actually voted for him into office is they're just a bunch of druggies that he doesn't, he wants to keep them on drugs, doesn't want to get them all, he wants to keep them on drugs, help their drug habit and use taxpayer dollars to do so.

Yeah. Sounds like a story about the CIA and dropping LSD on the streets back in the day and possibly the opioids that we see on the streets today too with fentanyl and heroin because as a dentist, I can tell you that when the media and other people keep telling you that it's all about narcotics, prescription drugs, that they're accusing dentists, number one, of overprescribing and pain clinics, number two, overprescribing.

Most people are not dying of opioid, of an opioid overdose. It's fentanyl and heroin. Yeah. So, yeah, very different story out there.

And then we had this in the news today. The doctor who helped discover the Omicron variant says she was pressured by government officials not to reveal how mild it was. Hmm. Wonder why they would want that.

But they've been doing that for two years now. So, yeah. Well, and then I thought this was interesting. I don't know if you guys heard about this. Joe Rogan has returned to stand up comedy. Yeah. He decided to return to stand up comedy.

And I see this one line from Rogan. Man, does this really hit home? This is some of the things we said two years ago. I was actually thinking, you know, Anthony, Justin, we should probably go back to some of the old episodes we did on masks and Black Lives Matters and vaccinations and see how right we were.

Because we haven't changed our policy. But boy, it seems like CNN and the left has all started to agree with us. But Joe Rogan nails it with this. So, Joe Rogan said this. You know, for folks who don't know, Joe Rogan is a podcaster.

Actually, Joe Rogan's podcast has more downloads, they said, than CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News combined. That's why they're afraid of him. Because he's giving a voice to people that don't pull the narrative.

And he's got the largest audience there. And so they're trying to get him off Spotify. They, you know, they went back in years and found that he used the N-word. It is kind of funny because the guy who, the author who put it out saying that he uses the N-word, yet they found that he used the N-word more often.

Yes, so Mike Smith is saying Rumble offered Joe Rogan $100 million to go to Rumble. He turned it down. He said he's sticking by Spotify for now. But this came in his stand-up comedy. Check, just listen to this because there is, this is one of these hard-hitting comments where, yeah, it's meant for humor, humor with a point.

He said, I've used that word in the years, referring to the N-word. Quote, but it's kind of weird. People will get really mad if you use that word and tweet about it on a phone that's made by slaves, unquote.

That is a brilliant point, right? I mean, they complain, oh, that word's so bad because of slavery. And yet, what do we end up finding? They're not really so much against slavery. Just the slavery that happened a couple hundred years ago, not a slavery that's happening today.

Oh, and certainly by none of the Hollywood figures or people like LeBron James who are using the manufacturing plants that act like slavery, right? The thing going on in China and other third world countries.

News, Reviews, and Upcoming Speaking Dates

Yeah, so let's, before we get started with, Michael is in the backstage. Before we bring him in, I just want to give a quick review. We got a review and we try to make it easy to give us reviews. Just go to lovethepodcast .com slash apologetics live.

And that's how you can send us a review. We got a five-star review. And Anthony, I know you're going to know exactly who this is from, but we got a five-star review from Grappler's Quest and it says Christ-centered instruction and discipleship.

Christ-centered instruction and discipleship from Pastor Andrew. Met him in the summer of 2014 and he has brought me to the truth in salvation through Christ alone. Saved by his grace through faith and not of works of, and not of our works for God.

Knew we would, knew we would boast. He offered to help us with content, countless book projects and Love Hope FM radio ministry at yourfreeradio .com. God bless this ministry and podcast community. All the glory to God.

And so that is a dear brother of ours, Brian, who is with, now with Love Hope FM. So if you want to listen to that and my rap report daily is played on there. Several of our podcasts get played on there.

You can go to free, yourfreeradio .com, yourfreeradio .com. And so with that, I don't know if we have any other, do we have any other announcements? I don't know if we have, Justin, you got any speaking that you're doing before Shepherds Conference?

No, I just got back from Texas, but no, actually nothing between now and Texas. So I have some time to try to get caught up on some work.

Well, that's a crazy idea. So I will be, the three of us will be at Shepherds Conference the first week of March. So we will be out there. Second week. Second week. Oh, is it second? Sorry. Second week of March.

I'll look on a calendar and check. Yeah, so it's the eighth. Yeah, the ninth to 11th. So we'll be out in Shepherds Conference in your LA area. We are excited that they dropped mask mandates indoors so we can actually eat food.

It's hard to eat the food through the cloth mask that doesn't actually do anything. Glad they finally admitted to that. I will be, if you're in Medford, Oregon for an evangelism training, that will be March 18th and 19th.

So if you're in that area, you can come look me up there. That is Pastor Kofi. Just we'll go with Kofi. Abantu? Abanu? Kofi, if you're listening, just come on in and pronounce your name for us so we can have it.

I mean. What do you say, Kofi? Everybody knows who it is, right? Kind of like when you say votey. No, no, no, no. Maybe in America, but here's the thing. If you don't know, Kofi's actually is. So the way it works is that you get.

He was born on Thursday. Everybody born on Thursday. His name is Kofi. And so that is actually a really common name. You have a one in seven chance of being named Kofi. Wow.

So, so there you go. I only know one other person named Kofi, so. So and so after Shepherd's Conference, I'll be in the Boise and Nampa, Idaho area. I'm doing teaching from March 15th through March 20th at different churches and Christian schools and stuff.

So that schedule should be coming out here shortly. All right.

Introducing Michael Salmon

Well, let us bring in Michael. Michael, how are you, sir? Hey, my brother. How are you? Good. Good. I'm no speak.

Can I? Yeah, we are. Is it me? Or are we getting a lag from him? OK, so let me ask you a question. Let me adjust my my audio to video. OK. OK.

All right. Let me get this here. Give me a second. It was it was it just me or were we hearing him before his lips were moving? Yeah. OK, because that would have driven me crazy for two hours.

Unless that's a spiritual gift, right?

I mean, how about now? Am I right on? Am I right on?

No. Am I worse? Hey, for the for the audio podcast, it'll it'll be great. How about this?

Hold on one second. So I guess, Andrew, you have people to introduce me to at Shepherd's. Now. Nope, still not. OK.

Worse or better? About the same. About the same. There's like a one second delay. One second. OK. Yeah. So I will introduce you to Katie's family out there as you put up that comment. At least I can recognize her sister, Wendy.

I don't always recognize Wendy's husband, but so Kofi is correcting me. Kofi, he's promoting his podcast there, Deep Dive Discipleship, which hasn't had a new podcast in a while, sir. Just saying some of us actually look forward to those podcasts and that accent of yours.

But he says he is born on Friday. It's a Friday name.

So can Kofi join us? I'm corrected. Kofi, you should try again. Michael. One, two, three. It's better.

Better. OK. It's like a half second off. OK. What's your equipment that you're playing with? You obviously have some fancy equipment and it's. I mean, you got your partner up there behind you. Three. No, that got worse.

So it got worse. We'll just we'll just we'll have to just deal with it. All right.

Hey, don't worry. I always have problems with my sound system and everything. So you're not the only one.

So. So, Michael, let's for the ones to catch up. You you were responding via chat two weeks ago when we were doing a show and you you and I actually met. I stayed in your home. I want to say close to 10 years ago.

I don't know. Eight, nine, 10 years ago. I think it was for the Super Bowl. When are you? Is it Arizona you're at? Arizona. Yeah. OK. That's what I had thought. So the Super Bowl was out in Arizona. We were doing a Super Bowl outreach.

You kindly put up a lot of us. Actually, I believe you you had RVs in your church parking lot and you had several of us and we kind of invaded your home. You had that big area like a like a kind of a big John or what it was, a gym or something to say.

I remember. But you put you put us up and we had lots of conversations. And so so we do. We haven't seen each other since then. But after the show two weeks ago, you did a kind of a response video. You tagged me in it.

And I said, why don't you come on in so we can we could discuss this a little bit more. So why don't you just real quick, since folks may not know who you are, just introduce yourself a bit more. OK, well.

I should just put a mask on that way I can sound without my lips moving.

Well, that is the way we do it in culture nowadays. And it drives for those of us who read lips. It drives me nuts. I can't sing. So let me ask you a question. Is my audio better? The audio actually sounds fine.

It's just not synced with your video thing.

Is my thinking a little better? No. OK. Let me try one other thing. I really want to get this set because this is very important. I mean, we have some time here, but let me see if that helps out a little bit.

All right. Well, what can I say about myself? You want to know what I'm doing now?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we don't have to give your whole life history.

Yes. It'd be too long. But I'm a pastor Harvest Christian Fellowship in Phoenix, Arizona. I've been the pastor since. Let's see. Well, prior to it becoming public, as we were in 2012, we were just a home fellowship.

As you know, you know my story. I went to jail for 60 days for having Bible studies in our living room, having home groups. Then in 2009, I built that building in the backyard, in my backyard. And our home group went from our living room into our backyard.

And we started worshiping in the backyard with like 20 of us, 20, 30 of us. And the city was wanting to was wanting to convert our whole property into a church. And we're like, this is my residence. This is not a church.

And so they ended up putting me 60 days in jail. That was 2012. When I got out, I did not know what God wanted me to do. And the Holy Spirit led me. So there you go. There's one of the gifts there. The Spirit of God just really led me.

And at that point, I did not want to do anything. And God just, you know, moved me. And in 2012, we just happened to come across that property where we had those RVs at for the Super Bowl. And we purchased the property.

We don't even know how it happened, but it just happened. Then about, we were there two years, two years later, we moved into our current property now, which was like triple the size of where we were.

So God just had totally just transformed our small 20, you know, 15, 20 person home group to about 150 persons, you know, fellowship at Harvest at where we're at now. So I've been very honored. I've been married 22 years.

My beautiful wife, Suzanne. I have seven daughters, seven girls. Yeah.

And they rage in age. I remember when I was there, you had a couple of really young ones that were, they just loved having everybody at the house.

We are very, we are very social people. You know, I'm Middle Eastern, I'm Jordanian. So we are very social people. This house is like Grand Central Station. Sometimes, you know, I have all the kids coming and all are my daughter's friends and people that like to come over here.

And we always have traveling evangelists or ministers who travel, go out to the Super Bowl and other places, stay over here, who go out to the schools preaching and teaching. You know, I go out to the streets at least once or twice a week.

I try to, you know, with the signs passing out tracks. So we're that type of that type of spirit here.

Doors are always open. So, you know, I think I think you really should. You really should invite me out to your churches to preach through First Corinthians 12, 13 and 14. I think it would be great for you after this.

So our home is open despite.

Tongues, Angels, and 1 Corinthians 13

So, so, I mean, let's get into some of the discussion. There was there were a lot of different things that were coming up during the show two weeks ago. And then in your your your kind of response video after.

And I almost don't know where to start. But I'll start with this. I want to because I wanted to explain one thing that you brought up in your in your show. Right. That it was kind of it was kind of reverse.

I was chatting and like there was a delay and you were trying to respond. It kind of ruined your flow because you were basically saying something and then you were seeing my comment and then like cutting off your thought and trying to answer it and then go back to it.

And then I'm so this is a much better way of doing it. I asked you the question because you said you you speak in tongues. Correct. Absolutely. Okay. And I asked you which languages you speak.

And so what was your response with that language when you're talking about language? I speak English. I said English and Middle Eastern Jordanian Arabic. Then when I think what you're referring to is when I said I speak in tongues, you asked me what language I was speaking when I spoke in tongues.

And I said it wasn't an actual physical language or language that's perceivable to humans. At least I don't believe so. But I believe it is a spiritual language. I don't know what it is. My mind is not does not comprehend it.

But my spirit does. And I feel in my heart something just really edifies what God is is wanting to say to me or do in my life. So if that's that's kind of where we were at. Yeah.

So do you know, I mean, is there anywhere in Scripture where there's a language that's not a known human language? I mean, can you point somewhere in Scripture where we would have some language that we don't know?

That'd be my first question. A second question is, can you point anywhere in Scripture where we have a spiritual gift that's not used for the body of Christ?

Yes. Yes, I think there is. Well, there has been some debate over, for example, First Corinthians, Chapter 13. Some people have debated whether or not if I speak in the tongues of men or in the tongue of angels.

There's been some debate on whether or not the tongues of men, which would mean the regular language of a person, you know, of human language or in the tongue of angels, meaning the speaking of tongues.

So you can look at it both ways, where I would look at it in a way saying, well, here's the tongue of men as of human language and the tongue of angels as in the spiritual language. So that's one where that kind of shows that there is a different language.

Another would be, as the Apostle Paul said, I believe it's in First Corinthians 14, where he says, well, I will pray in tongues. I will pray in the spirit, even though my mind is unfruitful. I don't know what I'm saying, but my spirit is edified.

So I don't know what he's he doesn't know what he's saying. He doesn't understand it in human perspective, but his spirit is edified. So and that it's he's not understanding what he's saying, but he knows that his spirit is being edified.

Did that answer both of your questions? Let me start with the first one.

But answer the it was answer the first question. I just put some scripture here. This is this is First Corinthians chapter 13, verse one. And I guess I'm just moving around to see how it looks on that.

All right. So if we if we look at this, it says, if I speak and this is what this was really hard for me to communicate to you when I'm doing it in chat. But so so it says here, if right. So right off the bat, it's not he's not saying he does this.

He's saying if if I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I become a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal. OK, so so the question there is because you had said you speak in the language of angels, which is the thing that I find.

I ask the question I asked you is a question I ask everyone who says they they have the gift of of tongues or languages. They all say they speak in angelic language.

Well, I think we need before we look at that, the word Han in the Greek, you need to say, if I speak with the tongues of men, there's no if there he says, though I speak. And the great the better interpretation is, though, because he does speak in the tongues of men, he does speak in the language of men.

So that's a given. It's not if he does. He definitely does. And he definitely does of angels. So this is definitely a clear if I or though I speak with tongues of men. So there's no if I speak. It's definitely he does.

Right. Well, also speak with the tongues of men.

The this is so when we have in Greek, there's four different conditional clauses.

Right. But in this context, Andrew, my brother, he definitely does speak in the tongues of men.

Oh, yeah, I would I would say this and I'll prove it in verse two. My point is that he's exaggerating verse two. Yeah. Yeah. Different, different thought. But in the very first. Oh, no, it's exactly. Yeah.

Well, let me let me finish. And maybe it'll make sense to you. I think it's the same exact thought. OK. I think what he's doing here is just I'll let you complete your thought. Then I will kind of. OK.

The focus here, I think, is love. Love is greater than a gift of tongues or languages. Love is greater than a gift of prophecy. And so he uses an, you know, an illustration here to say or an exaggeration of something he does do.

Speak in the language of men and then an exaggeration, a language of angels. This isn't saying he does speak in a language of angels.

Why would it be? I'm just. Why wouldn't it also be an exaggeration of the tongues of men? I mean, where did you put in the word exaggeration? Well, I got in there. Yeah, I mean, I'll get to that. But I'm just wondering, are you wanting to make sure your theology is not being inserted into the actual text?

No. I mean, so let's let's walk through this and see. He's saying he's this is this is a conditional. That's not saying a therefore. It's saying if. So he's saying if he if he speaks in the language of men and a language of angels, but does not have love, he's nothing but a noisy symbol.

But then look at verse two. If I have a gift of prophecy, which he had. Right. But then we have the exaggeration. And if I know all mysteries and all knowledge and have all faith, sort of remove mountains, but have not love, I'm nothing.

Now, if he understood if if he in the context, you have to see it the same way. So if if it is that he's speaking the language of angels, then he also has all knowledge. There's only one being that has all knowledge.

And so if that is if if we make the case, you're saying with that thought, would you also go to verse three and say, though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor and though I give my body to be burned?

Would that be an exaggeration? Would the second, though, be an exaggeration in verse three?

Yeah, if he's if he he surrenders his body to be burned. Yeah. He doesn't know that he's that that's going to happen.

OK, but would you say that's an exaggeration like that would not happen?

Well, and and the exaggeration, I would argue, may be found in some of the earlier manuscripts, which would read and I surrender my body that I may boast to be burned. And that would be an exaggeration in his case because he wouldn't boast to do that.

OK, well, I don't I don't know all that extra stuff. I don't know what you're saying on this one. Boast to surrender. I get that my body. I don't know about the boasting part to be burned. OK, to be set on fire.

That's pretty clear. So you're saying I think we need to be very consistent.

Yeah. And I'm trying to be consistent. And now. So here's the thing. What's the focus of all three of those verses? It's it's not it's not on the the language of angels or of men. It's not on the knowing all things.

It's not on him surrendering his body. The focus on all three of these is on love and love being priority over these other games. Yeah. Right. And so to make something a literal that's that's actually an illustration is is a wrong hermeneutic.

Right. Right. Right. Off the bat, we're trying to make something that it's it's not meant to be literal. And if it is meant to be literal, then you if you're going to be consistent, then Paul is saying he could be God, that he's omniscient.

Well, I don't know, first of all, why you brought it up, because, I mean, we are talking about the gifts of the spirit. So in context, we're talking about, you know, I brought up 13 one. Don't. I don't I don't mean like why you brought it up.

But we were why this would even change anything. I mean, prophecy is definitely a gift. And though I have prophecy and understand all mysteries, I think that's where you're where you're trying to say that he would be God, because he would say, understand all mysteries and all knowledge, all knowledge.

I have all faith. I get it. I understand what you're trying to say, and I think that through the Holy Spirit, the apostle Paul or the spirit of God is telling us through that scripture is really it doesn't matter what you have and who you are.

If it's not bathed in love, it means absolutely nothing. That's the context. Wouldn't you agree?

I would I would agree with that. But see, the reason I bring it up is because if if someone says they have the gift of languages, we can test that if it's a human language. But if someone is going to to do something where and I'm going to argue that I believe many who who many in the charismatic movement are are just and I don't know, Michael, I don't mean this as an offense to you.

And I don't think you're going to take it as an offense. I think you understand our differences. But I think that people are deceived in thinking, well, this is something that's a spiritual thing. And therefore, I don't have to understand it.

And it's an angelic language. But there's no text of scripture that says that we do speak angelic languages. And the and that's the reason I had that follow up question is if if we do speak some angelic language, how does that benefit the church?

It doesn't.

Well, I think I think let's just stick on 13 for a moment. There is nothing on there that's exaggerated. The Apostle Paul didn't give anything that is exaggerated here. I mean, he's not saying, though, if I had a laptop computer or though I can swim the English Canal or if I can fly over mountains, he's using things that are real.

Though I can speak of tons of men and of angels and not have love, I'm nothing. And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge. And though I have all. And of course, the word all, which means any or pass.

OK, always or any or all, any, every or the whole. Either way, knowledge. And though I have all faith so that I can remove mountains. Right. Jesus said, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can tell this mountain to move and it shall be moved scriptural.

Even though I haven't moved many mountains, but there has been hills in my life that have been changed and not have love. I'm nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor and though I give my body to be burned, I have not love.

It profits me nothing. So there's nothing that's exaggerated. So exaggerative that he's saying, look, this is I can have knowledge, prophecy, wisdom, mystery. I can feed the poor. I can give my body to be burned.

I can speak with tons of men and I can speak with tons of angel. It doesn't matter if it does not have love. It means nothing.

Well, I agree that if it doesn't have love, it means nothing. But are you saying that Paul had the ability to have all knowledge?

Well, he's not saying that. Again, the context here is love. And I think what you and I are talking about is, is the tongue of angels real? And the answer is yes. And is the gifts of prophecy and understanding and mysteries and knowledge real?

Yes. Is faith real? Yes. Is given to the poor real? Yes. Is giving your body before it burned real? Yes. You can't say all of this. You can't say all of this is real except for the tongues of angels. That's not real.

All right. Well, you say that, you know, and angels may have a language, but you're saying Paul can speak that language.

Well, let's go. Let's go to your next. The next question is.

Well, hold on. Can Paul speak the language of angels?

Well, you asked, you asked me, is there anywhere where there is a language that is not of men? And, you know, like a regular language, and I said to you, well, here's one is 1st Corinthians, chapter 13, verse one.

And the other coincide one, one that sits next to it would be chapter 14. Where he says in verse we can look at. I'm just going to shoot this one out. Maybe verse four, verse two. Sorry. For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God.

For no man understands him. See, no man understands him. But in the spirit, he speaks mysteries. So if it says he speaks for he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God. We have to accept that that a person speaks in this unknown tongue speaks.

Not unto men, for no man understands him, and no man means there's not a person who may understand him. But the spirit speaks mysteries.

Well, OK, let's continue with the context, though. Verses three and four.

OK, so that's going to be one hurdle, OK? Well, actually. But he that prophesies speaks unto men to edify and exhort and comfort. He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself. But he that prophesies edifies the church.

OK, so is there anywhere in Scripture? Because you're going to say that this is proof, right? That we can speak and not know what we're speaking. That's your case. I would argue that what he's saying here is that...

Hold on. Slow down. Say that last statement one more time.

OK, you would say here that he's speaking, that when he says he speaks of a tongue, he doesn't know what he speaks.

That's not what I said. That's what he said. OK, well.

Right? The way you're interpreting this versus the way I'm going to interpret this.

Andrew, look at it. For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God. No man understands, how but in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

All right. So in verse 4, it says, the one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself. That's right. OK. Is self-edification a biblical principle? Or is that something that we see that's demonic?