Mormonism Is Not Christian

Apologia Utah

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00:00

Okay, good to meet you as well.

00:01

So we're out here just having conversations, handing out gospel tracts.

00:04

Yeah, I see.

00:07

Have you, did you get to serve a mission? I did, yeah.

00:10

Okay, where'd you serve? In Germany, in the Frankfurt Mission.

00:12

Oh, wow.

00:13

Okay.

00:14

That was probably crazy, huh? Yeah, it was a good time.

00:16

Was it a little different culturally? Oh, very much, yeah.

00:19

Well, mostly because, you know, there's a ton of refugees over there, so...

00:22

Oh, okay.

00:22

There's not really like a single culture that I ran into every day, you know? So it's kind of like a melting pot? Yeah, it was.

00:27

Oh, okay.

00:27

Yeah.

00:28

That's pretty cool.

00:29

Yeah, I don't know how it is now after COVID and whatnot.

00:32

Yeah, I have no idea.

00:33

Knowing the German people, I feel like everything shut down, but I was there to see, so...

00:37

Yeah.

00:37

When did you serve? 2018 to 2020, so...

00:40

Oh, so you got it just in time.

00:42

Yep, yep.

00:43

Well, I'm glad you made it back safely.

00:45

Oh, yeah, me too.

00:46

Goodness.

00:46

You're stuck over there for another year or something because of travel.

00:50

Yeah.

00:53

So while you were serving, or have you ever had an evangelical kind of describe to you kind of the differences between like what the Latter-day Saints believe and what like an evangelical Bible-believing church is? Beliefs would be? I mean, yeah, I've had conversations like evangelical Christians.

01:08

I don't know.

01:09

I guess, what are your beliefs? Okay, so the biggest one that kind of has us out here, that we're concerned about, there's a few.

01:21

We have the nature of who God is, you know, by nature.

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I think that we differ on that.

01:26

I think we differ on who Jesus was based on who God is.

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And I think we, who Jesus is, not was, because he's still alive.

01:40

And I think we differ on what the gospel is or what the definition of grace is.

01:45

So like on the front of the tract, it says, you know, it's Moroni 1032, come unto Christ, be perfected in him, deny yourself of all ungodliness.

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And if you do all these things, then his grace is sufficient for you.

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Whereas, Paul says that by grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourself, but in the gift of God, and it's not of works, so that no man may boast.

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So there's no works involved in making yourself worthy to receive grace from God.

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Paul negates that in Romans like 3 through 6.

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Paul clearly says, you know, works earn you a wage.

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And if you're earning a wage, it's no longer grace.

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So if you're doing anything to add to your worthiness to receive grace, then it's not truly grace.

02:36

You see what I'm saying? I get you, yeah.

02:38

So I guess the two that really kind of sum it all up, like your third article of faith says that by the atonement of Christ, all men may be saved through the atonement of Christ by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

02:56

Yes, yeah.

02:57

So, with, I know some, I know some.

03:01

I'm still learning, so.

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And if I'm in error, please correct me, so.

03:07

If, so we have that from the latter day saints, and then in Ephesians chapter 2, it says, you know, what I just quoted, for by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves is a gift of God, not of works, so that no man may boast.

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So in those two sentences, one says you're saved by grace, for by grace are you saved.

03:29

And then with the third article, it says that all men may be saved by the atonement of Christ, or through the atonement of Christ, all men may be saved by obedience.

03:39

So one, you're saved by grace, and the other, you're saved by obedience.

03:44

So, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, that's, I feel like it's a very complex thing, you know.

03:51

Yeah.

03:52

The way, the way I've understood, like, Paul's, I guess his writing in Romans, is that he was, you know, most specifically talking about, like, the law of the Old Testament, like, the law of Moses, and how the Jews mainly, I guess it was a mix of Jews and Gentiles, but it's the Jews that he was writing to, he was telling, like, y'all don't need to follow this anymore, you know, like, you know.

04:19

But yeah, it's totally, like, we can't save ourselves.

04:21

It's Jesus Christ, His grace, His power that saves us.

04:25

And that's, you know, that's why I'm grateful to Him for all that He did for us.

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I, I don't know, I want to give back to Him.

04:36

Yeah.

04:36

I don't do it as often as I should, I guess, but it's the way I live, you know, that I show Him I'm grateful, and that, you know, I, I guess, let Him change me.

04:50

Okay.

04:52

Something just landed on me, sorry.

04:54

So, I think I can agree with that, like, I get a lot of, into a lot of conversations where, you know, my LDS neighbors will tell me, well, yeah, but, I understand, but faith without works is dead, you know, and I 100% agree, like, you know, James says that in chapter 2.

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He says faith without works is dead, you know.

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He says if a man says he has faith, but he has no works, can that faith save him? And it's a rhetorical question, the answer obviously being no.

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You know, if you don't have a real, true living faith, then you can't be saved.

05:27

So, kind of what I heard you saying is, like, the works you do are in gratitude for the salvation you believe you have, right? Or are they...

05:38

Go ahead.

05:39

Well, I don't know about have yet.

05:41

Okay.

05:41

You know, I mean, I, I, yeah, like, there's definitely, you know, if, if I don't, like, endure to the end, you know, and I, I lose the faith and, and lose the, the connection to Jesus Christ, um, then, you know, obviously, like, he's, you know, still the savior of the world, but, like, you know, I...

06:03

But if you become apostate, there's, there's consequences for that.

06:05

Right, exactly, yeah.

06:06

Can I ask you a question? My name is Dusty, by the way.

06:08

Hey, Dusty.

06:09

Um, so, I, it sounds like what you're saying is that if you were to die today and stand before God, you're not sure that you'd be saved.

06:17

That's a tough question.

06:19

Um, yeah, I guess, uh, to borrow something from the, the Islam faith, they, they say that, like, no one knows, you know, who will be saved, you know? Sure.

06:30

And I, I can't judge myself.

06:32

Right.

06:32

Um, I hope, I hope that I will be.

06:34

And, and that's probably the main difference is what we're trying to share with you, is what he, my brother's saying is that in Ephesians and in Romans, first off, in Romans, Paul puts everybody in the same category.

06:48

He says Jew and Gentile, right? So that's everybody.

06:51

Um, and what he's saying is, it is for, it is by grace you have been saved.

06:56

And what, what he's, he's telling us is that when Jesus died on the cross, his words were, it is finished, you know? And, and what he's saying there is the debt is paid.

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And, and Jesus says, if you believe in me, you will be saved.

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You will have the gift of eternal life.

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Those are his words, right? So, what we're saying to you is, as a, as a, as a Christian, the Christian gospel is telling you that it is strictly by your faith in Christ, that you will receive the grace of God, grace of God as, as faith, as a gift, and you will be saved from your sin, past, present, and future.

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And that is a consistent message that we see throughout scripture in Ephesians and Romans.

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Jesus quotes it in, in the, in the gospels.

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He, he tells the man, if you believe, you will be saved.

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So, we're trying to share that message with you tonight because we believe that the LDS organization is placing a heavy yoke on our brothers that they shouldn't be.

08:08

And that the scripture doesn't teach.

08:11

And what I mean is exactly what you've admitted to me is that if you were to stand before God today, you don't truly know if you're saved because there's a chance that you could not do, do enough or do the things that you're supposed to do.

08:25

And what we're saying is the consistent message of scripture is that it's strictly by faith that you are justified, made right before God, saved from your sin.

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And that it is an outworking of your faith.

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Those are the works in which you show your love for, for God.

08:43

That's why I was thinking like that's, that I can agree with because what you were saying was I want to show him that I'm grateful, you know, like for what he did.

08:51

So, everything he was saying, can I, can I read you a verse that kind of sums that up? So, it's Romans chapter 5, verse 1.

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So, Romans 1, 2 and 3 are just a huge indictment of all mankind.

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We're all under sin.

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We've all fallen short of the glory of God.

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And then Romans chapter 4 is talking about the faith of Abraham.

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And then, so...

09:18

Yeah, it says Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

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Even before the law of Moses.

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Exactly.

09:27

And so, then in chapter 5, Paul starts it with a therefore.

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So, because of everything he just said and that we just kind of summarized, it says, Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have, we have, like right now, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

09:44

Through whom we have also obtained, past tense, our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand.

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And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

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So, God is saving people for his own glory.

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To glorify himself because we're sinners.

10:00

We are helpless to do anything for ourselves.

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In Ephesians chapter 1, it says that we are dead in our trespasses and sins.

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But that hope is a sure hope.

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That Christ paid the penalty.

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That when he said it is finished, he meant it.

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We are saved by works, but we're not saved by our own works.

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We're saved by the works that Jesus did on our behalf.

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So, that's the hope that we're seeking to help people to find.

10:27

I want you to have confidence knowing that through faith in Christ, you can stand before God justified.

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Not to say, now just go sin all you want.

10:38

You know, Paul in chapter 6, he goes on to say, you know, he sees that coming and he's like, yeah.

10:43

He's like, no, no, no, that's not what I'm saying.

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He's like, you're now free to live righteously.

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You're not freed, you're freed from your sin and you're free to live righteously because of what Christ did for you.

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It's not a, you have to in order to make what Christ did available to you.

11:01

You know what I'm saying? Interesting, okay.

11:02

Yeah, so that's a difference, you know.

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And that is something that's a big deal, right? Because we're talking about salvation.

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You know, how is one someone saved? And I believe it's in, you know, in Galatians where it said Paul is dealing with Judaizers.

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Which are people who are saying, you need to be circumcised and have faith in Christ.

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And Paul says, and the council gets together, the Jerusalem council gets together and says, you know what? If you add anything to faith, you are, it's better that you are accursed, right? You are cut off.

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You are, accursed is like eternally separated from God, right? So if we add anything, the indictment and the consistent Christian message is saying, you're accursed.

11:58

So that's why we harp on this.

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How are you saved? How is one saved? The Bible harps on it.

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And so we must as well.

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But that's not the only thing.

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It's how are we saved? But that it's also having the right Christ, right? So the Bible is consistent about how we're saved.

12:21

But we can't, like my brother said, we can't just say, oh I believe in Christ and then go live any way that I want.

12:28

You can be justified before God and made righteous through your faith.

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But you have to have that grace from God and then you have to have the right Jesus, right? Your faith has to be in the right object.

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Like you could be in an airplane getting ready to go skydiving and have faith that this thing is going to catch me.

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But bro, it's a backpack, not a parachute.

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You know what I mean? That's not going to save you.

12:53

So if we have the wrong Christ and we say that lovingly and we say that because scripture warns us that in 2 Corinthians chapter 11, Paul warns the church in Corinth that there will come men preaching a different gospel, a different Christ and a different spirit.

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So our concern is that when Joseph Smith came and brought his message, supposedly restoring the church, that he was preaching a different God and a different Christ.

13:26

So even Joseph himself said that.

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I think it's in the history section of the documentation.

13:37

It may be First Vision account, I'm not exactly sure.

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But where he says that he was praying and trying to seek out which denomination he should join.

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Which of the churches he should join.

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And he was told, join none of them, they're all an abomination, right? So then he forms the Latter Day Saints.

14:00

Have you ever heard the tests of a prophet given in Deuteronomy? They just sound familiar.

14:06

So Deuteronomy 13 and 18 give two different tests.

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One of them is if a prophet comes and proclaims something that's supposed to happen in the future and it doesn't happen, he's not a prophet.

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And then the other one says if a man comes and he has signs and wonders, he's doing miracles, but he leads you after different gods, gods which you have not known, he's not a prophet, don't follow him.

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The Lord your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart, mind, and strength.

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So I believe that it's very clear if you look at Isaiah 43.10 that says, before me there was no God formed and neither shall there be after me.

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That's very clear that there is only one God.

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The Shema was a prayer that Israel said daily.

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It was their morning prayers and they said, Hear O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one.

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And so throughout scripture we see monotheism.

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God, there is one true and living God.

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And then Joseph Smith comes and with his King Follett discourse he says that you have imagined and supposed that God has been God from all eternity, but I'll take away the veil so that you may see you must become God yourselves, just like every God before you has.

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So our concern then is you have a different God because the God that Joseph Smith proclaimed was one who was once a man and became exalted to become God.

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Whereas the Bible teaches that God has been God from all eternity into all eternity before creation, before time existed.

15:40

So with having a different God that affects who Jesus is.

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Because in John 1 it says that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

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So and then in verse 14 of John chapter 1 it says and the Word became flesh.

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John is showing us that I'm speaking of Jesus.

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And so that Word for in the beginning is actually a Word without reference to time.

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So it's completely before time began.

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As far back as you could ever imagine the Word was there with God and the Word was God.

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And that's one of those areas where we see clearly a Trinitarian understanding of who God is.

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And so if Jesus has eternally existed as God and stepped down and took on flesh that's fundamentally different than a created being that was a spirit offspring of Heavenly Father.

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You see what I'm saying? There was no point in which Christ came into existence.

16:47

What's your thoughts on those things? I know that we just gave you a fire hose.

16:55

Like Trinitarianism.

16:56

Or just about God, the nature of God in general.

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The message sheet we're sharing with you saying there is only one God consistent throughout scripture say Isaiah 44.6, Deuteronomy 6.4, Isaiah 43.10.

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There is only one God that he's been God from all eternities, eternally been God.

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He knows not of any other God.

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There is not one.

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Versus a message saying that there are many gods and in fact you can become one one day.

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How do you test that I guess in your thinking? I mean I would say that we have to go to the Bible right? To see if what we're saying is true.

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And if we're not seeing that consistently in scripture Or if what you're being taught isn't consistent with what the Bible is saying You've got to throw it out.

17:55

What would you think about that? I mean I guess for me it comes down to the nature of God and how he feels about us.

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He said that he saves us for his own glory.

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And I just have a hard time grasping that as an all loving and perfect God who would truly do something for his own glory.

18:30

Unless his glory was good for us as well right? Would you agree to that? Oh it is.

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To bring him glory is good for us.

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Because you know we get freedom from sin.

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We get freedom from the chains, the bondage of sin right? In our glorifying of God being made more like him.

18:58

Not made into gods but it says made like him, sanctified.

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But I guess is what you're saying that the God that we're talking about is not? Does it seem loving when things are only done for his glory? Or what were you going into there? I mean, I don't know.

19:20

I guess I've always had a hard time feeling or understanding that.

19:31

When Jesus says don't call me good, there's one that's good.

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And I feel like it just shows that he's not about his own glory.

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He wants to let us grow like you said.

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Become better, become something.

19:53

So a couple of things, yes.

19:56

When Jesus was on the earth and had taken on a body of flesh he was in a state of humiliation.

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He had stepped out of his glory that he had with the father from eternity and stepped into his own creation.

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Colossians 1 talks about Jesus having created everything that's ever come into existence.

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So Jesus stepped into that and then humbled himself and lived as a perfect man would live.

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So he was deferring in his humbleness, deferring that glory to his heavenly father, to God.

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As a perfect man would.

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But as to God being about his own glory and being concerned with his own glory now I can understand why that is difficult to swallow if God were like us.

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Because if I'm about my own glory, I'm arrogant.

20:53

I'm not someone that you want to be friends with.

20:55

No, that's why I pointed to me because I didn't want to say it of you.

20:58

Yeah, exactly.

21:00

So if I'm about my own glory, I'm arrogant, I'm sinful, prideful.

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It's an ugly thing.

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You don't generally want to hang out with people like that.

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So I understand why that's a little bit concerning.

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But if you think of it this way, that God is far beyond us and if he were to be about glory for anyone but himself, he would cease to be God.

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Because if there was someone he was exalting above him, then he's no longer God.

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You see what I'm saying? I get you, yeah.

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So it's good for us that he's passionate about his glory.

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Because if he wasn't, he wouldn't punish sin.

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There would be no justice for great evils in the world.

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You know what I mean? Because if he loves babies, he has to hate baby murder.

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He has to hate abortion.

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He has to hate child sacrifice from the Old Testament.

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He hates those things because he loves children.

21:58

His character is good, right? Yeah, he's perfect.

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He's good, he's perfect.

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So if he was about any other thing's glory, then it wouldn't be good, it wouldn't be perfect.

22:08

So that's why more so it's okay because in his character, in his being, he is good, right? So that's why it's a good thing for us because when we glorify him, we're doing what is good to glorify him.

22:29

But I guess the question again comes back to the difference there that we're sharing with you is One God, right? Throughout Scripture, one God and the difference in many gods being taught to you and then the fact that you can become God one day, right? And I would even show you that in Romans 1, it's an indictment on people when they claim to be wise and reject God, they become gods to themselves, right? They worship and serve the creature rather than the creator.

23:11

But that's an indictment on people, right? That's a judgment from God on people saying that your mind will be darkened, your hearts will be darkened, you'll worship and serve a God in which you've created because you've rejected the one true God.

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And that's a judgment and an indictment on people rejecting God.

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So we have to love on people and say that if you're rejecting the one true God of the Bible and you're saying that there are many gods and in fact you will become one one day, that's in fact an indictment that God gives us as a judgment upon us.

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And we're calling out lovingly saying turn from that thinking and turn to consistently what the Scriptures are teaching you in the Bible about who God is, how we are saved, and we're also saying that that is a good message because like you said before, you don't have an assurance of saving faith which means there is a heaviness and a burden on your shoulders to perform when we're saying that the good news of the gospel is to repent and believe and then work and follow.

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And there is a peace in that because it's what Christ did only and not what we have to do.

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So it's a peaceful message, it's a good message, it's a gospel message and it's consistent because it's consistent with what the Scripture says.

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And that would be our message is don't just take what we're saying but go to the Scriptures.

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But anything outside of that that is being taught that contradicts that, you have to question and reject it, right? So that's what we're saying.

25:26

Thank you for your time.

25:28

Thank you.

25:28

I appreciate you stopping and talking.

25:29

What was your name? I was Justin.

25:34

Thanks for talking.

25:36

Have a good night.