April 17, 2024 Show with Devin Crawford on “Out from the Clutches of the Occult & Into the Saving Embrace of Christ Jesus”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 17th day of April, 2024.

I am thrilled to have not only a first -time guest on the show today, but also a returning guest who is actually going to be serving as my co -host.

And my guest today for the very first time is Devin Crawford. He is an open -air evangelist, and he is going to be addressing one man's journey out from the clutches of the occult and into the saving embrace of Christ Jesus.

And first of all, let me welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Devin Crawford.

Thank you very much, Chris. It's an honor to be on here. And joining us as my co -host today is

Devin's pastor, Jeremy Brandenburg, who is the pastor of Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And welcome back to the program, Pastor Jeremy. Hi, Chris. Thanks for having me back on.

And let me right off the bat give our listeners our email address. It is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -S -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And since we are discussing the occult today, it is very likely that people may have very personal and private questions about their own experiences in the occult.

Perhaps they have a loved one enslaved in the occult, or whatever the case may be, that would compel them to remain anonymous when asking a question.

We will honor your quest. But please, if it's just a general question, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Well, first of all, Devin, why don't you, before we get the ball rolling with your personal testimony, why don't you tell our listeners about a new book you have written, titled

Prayers, Proverbs, and Meditations for My New Life in Jesus. Okay.

I compiled this book from about two and a half years of me writing personal prayers, proverbs, and meditations.

And a lot of it has to do with struggles or surrendering to Christ or illuminating and purifying us and how it is to be a new believer in Christ and the battles that you face and the war that you wage within of your old nature and your new nature.

I focus a lot on how Christ ransomed me and how he changed the darkness that was once inside of me into the light.

Most of it can relate to any believer. I also, in the back of the book, included what converted me, which was a gospel track, and that should be just an encouragement to anyone that hands out gospel tracks.

Even the one that I found was alongside the road crumbled up, so even the ones that get thrown out or blown in the wind definitely can be used providentially by God.

And if anybody is interested in getting a hold of this book, you can go to Amazon and type in Devin Crawford, and Devin spells his first name

D -E -V -I -N, and this book will come up, prayers, proverbs, and meditations for my new life in Jesus.

And also, Pastor Jeremy, if you could briefly describe Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Redeemer OPC is located at 101 Petersburg Road, and I'm going through Ephesians right now, and we're rooted and grounded in the love of Christ, Chris.

And when you come to Redeemer, you're going to have traditional worship, you're going to have the preaching of God's word, you're going to have a warm welcome, and we welcome anyone and everyone to come hear the good news of eternal life in Christ Jesus our

Lord. And I'm so, so glad. I think you're making me think back to the first time I saw Devin at church, and I thought it was within the first couple months, and I thought, who is this young guy?

Because we were at church with a lot of wonderful older folks whom I love, and six of whom have gone into glory, and I love our older folks, but I love our younger folks, too.

And I think I even remember talking to mutual friends of all of ours, Charlie and Terry Liebert, and saying, who's this young guy?

I need to go talk to him. And it's Devin. And the

Orthodox Presbyterian Church, the Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, more details can be found out about this church at their website,

RedeemerOPC .org, RedeemerOPC .org. And so,

Devin, whenever I have a first -time guest in the program, that guest will give a summary of their salvation testimony, regardless of what the main topic we are going to address will be.

But in your case, the whole show is really, in one form or another, your personal testimony.

And if you could, start off with describing how you were raised in any kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which you were raised, and how you, unfortunately and tragically, got drawn into the occult.

Okay, yeah. When I was growing up, we never,

I don't think I've ever been to church with my parents. And it wasn't like my parents were totally opposed to God, especially my mother.

My mother went to a Christian school, but it's not like she stuck with it.

She definitely strayed away, or backslid, or however you want to view it.

And her relationship now, because I keep pressing on her about Christ and what

He's done for us, you know, she is growing with the Lord. I can tell through her messages what she says, stuff like that.

But while I was growing up, I do recall going to youth group and stuff with some friends from school, but, you know,

I always made a mockery about it. I thought it was a joke, you know. I was very rebellious and living against the

Lord, even at a really young age. And then in high school,

I was dating this girl for two years, and she was a believer, quote -unquote, during the time.

And they took me to church and stuff and shared the gospel with me. It never really stuck because it didn't seem like she was really living for the

Lord. Well, that would have been made clear by the fact she was dating you. Yeah, I was definitely a bad influence and a heathen during the time.

I was causing a lot of chaos in not only my own life, but in her life.

But I do believe that she planted a seed in my life. And I did reach out to her recently and sent her a lengthy email about how

God changed me. And I hope it touches her heart. But, you know,

I was still living in rebellion and I was going through phases during high school. And I was very depressed and always felt this weight of darkness over me.

And then during high school, I got introduced into a lot of drugs.

Now, can you explain any reasons that you're aware of?

And by the way, I think you should move your microphone farther away from your headphones because I'm echoing back. Okay.

Can you explain any reasons that you're aware of anyway that were at root in your depression and the dark feelings that you had and so on?

It's hard to put a marker on exactly what, but I don't know.

I just felt like life was meaningless, kind of. And maybe because of certain things

I experienced or trauma or this or that, I would definitely put that into account.

And even just the things that I was doing when I was younger were really wicked things.

So I would say that definitely influenced me in terms of being depressed. And then during high school,

I got introduced into a lot of drugs. I would leave class and go to the bathroom and do drugs.

And I would get high before getting on the bus. And I was living it up, so to speak.

Can you mention what kind of drugs you were doing? Yeah, in the bathrooms, I was snorting pills.

I was smoking pot before getting on the bus. I was doing all kinds of stuff, anything under the sun you can name.

And then after I got out of high school, I got into harder drugs, particularly methamphetamines.

And at that point, I don't know, I just wanted to end my life. And I was seeking for a purpose, and I started getting into divination.

This was my last year of high school. And please define that for us.

Divination? Yes. Well, there's many different forms, but particularly manifestation.

You know, a lot of the New Age practices that are being practiced nowadays by my generation, generations below me.

It's just a lot of mysticism, or people are collecting crystals, or all kinds of different weird stuff.

But particularly in my case, I took out a medium to see into my future.

I was interpreting dreams. I had dreams and stuff, and I was interpreting them. And I got into a lot of stuff, and I was manifesting with numbers, numerology.

Now, what do you mean by manifesting with numbers? It's hard to explain.

You mean these things would appear to you visually, at least in your mind, these numbers? They would appear...

If I was driving, I would see the numbers on a stop sign. If I woke up at a certain time,

I would wake up at a certain time. In my mind, something would tell me to look at the clock at that particular time, and it would be a repeating number.

And in 2005, one thing important to note, in 2005,

Doreen Virtue was the one who kind of invented angel numbers. And I also have a testimony on her

YouTube channel, Doreen Virtue, teen saved from the New Age. If you type that into YouTube, you'll be able to find it, which goes more into depth on angel numbers.

But yeah, I would just see them repeating on certain stuff if I go online.

It's kind of like a neurological manipulation where you think something's – you're interpreting something out of something.

But it really has no power over your life. You're the one that's surrendering yourself to it because you believe it.

And how were you, if you don't mind stepping backwards a little bit, how were you first introduced specifically to this whole world of the

New Age and the occult? I really would want to say through social media and mutual friends and just online stuff, and then

I got into it. I was looking for a purpose outside of myself, and I was trying to find meaning to life apart from me.

And it's very easy nowadays to get attracted into something that's apart from yourself.

And I feel like that's what really drawed me into it was people on social media that I was acquainted to or knew from high school or – so yeah,

I would say that, Chris. Any specific books or videos or music that further drew you, sucked you into this whole mindset?

Absolutely. It's definitely integrated into a lot of music.

I mean, it's integrated into a lot of music for sure. I was particularly listening to a lot of secular music and explicit music, and yeah, it's definitely integrated into that or certain television programs or anything that involves the

New Age, yoga, this, that. A lot of Chinese philosophies are into manifestation, like the yin and yang, this and that.

So a lot of that stuff drew me in. And did this – now,

I don't want anybody to misunderstand me when I say, did this, at least in your mind, help you to put behind you thoughts of suicide?

I mean, were you thinking, wow, this is really helping my outlook in life. This is making me happier.

Or was it making you more suicidal? It definitely wasn't helping me in the right ways.

I mean, it's kind of like it was stringing me along.

It definitely wasn't fulfilling the deep desire that I had down in my heart that I needed.

And there's certain experiences that I had doing this stuff, like the divination. I had demonic encounters after contacting that medium.

And explain that in detail, the demonic encounters. I woke up and I kept hearing my name being called, whispered to me.

And it sent chills down my spine. I was terrified. I grabbed the

Bible because I was staying at my grandparents' house because I got kicked out of my house for doing drugs, my parents' house.

And I saw this figure appear to me while I had the

Bible in my hand because I was hearing my name being whispered to me and it was freaking me out.

And I thought it was my brother. They were all sleeping. My grandparents were sleeping. My brother was sleeping because I double checked and I was still being called out.

And I remember seeing this figure while I was on the couch and it reached out its hand to me and I never reached out.

Something in my mind was telling me maybe this is a dead relative or maybe this is an angel, you know, because I'm into the quote unquote angel numbers.

But I didn't reach out my hand. I remember running outside with the

Bible and opening it up and reading and reading and reading. And I slept in the car. It was during – it was really cold outside too.

So I was thinking I could escape, you know, when really deep down inside,

I wasn't sealed by the Holy Spirit yet. Anything could happen, you know.

I wasn't protected. Maybe in a general providential sense, God was protecting me because I can't recall of any times of possession itself.

But yeah, this really awoken my mind that there is darkness, that there is demons, that the war isn't against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities and dark forces.

Like these are real things that we're facing that the

Christian church needs to be aware of that it's not just against flesh and blood that we're waging war against.

And this really opened my mind that God exists because if evil exists, then God exists.

Now, can you be a little bit more descriptive of what you were seeing?

Was this as clear as somebody – as if Pastor Jeremy was visiting you in your living room and you could see him clearly like a human being standing in front of you?

Or is it more of a, for lack of a better term, ghostly apparition, transparent or something?

Transparent, absolutely. And you're certain it was nothing that could be explained away by a trick on the eyes?

Like for instance – Oh, I'm sure that any atheist would explain my symptoms away as a schizophrenic episode of auditory and visual hallucinations.

My heart leapt into my throat recently when

I was walking down the hallway of my apartment and saw a man standing in my studio where I'm sitting right now.

And what it turned out to be was my own coat on my chair with my sneakers right at the bottom of the chair.

Okay, yeah. You're certain that nothing could be explained away by things like that – light and shadows and that kind of thing playing tricks on your mind?

Okay, yeah. I would direct people to – it's broad.

You know, I had the lamp on right next to me and it's only five feet away from me and then it comes closer to maybe one foot away with its hand.

So – and it was a figure that looked like a human being and, you know,

I would describe it as something that masquerades as an angel of light because it looked –

I mean it looked like an angel but it was in human form and it was transparent.

It's really hard to explain. Since you're saying it looked like an angel, in your mind it wasn't scary looking?

It was a surreal experience and I was terrified.

Yeah, well, actually even the biblical description, when people saw angels, they were terrified. But I meant more of a stereotypical image that people have in their minds when they think of –

No, it wasn't no baby cherub with a bow and arrow with the hearts on it. Or even a

Swedish looking slightly effeminate person with wings or whatever.

Right, yeah. It looked like a human figure. And my – no offense meant towards Swedes.

I don't mean to imply that you're effeminate looking. But – so what we're going to do is we're going to go to our first commercial break and I want you to pick up where you left off there.

And then perhaps even Pastor Jeremy, your pastor, has a question or two of his own when you're finished telling that portion of your story.

And if anybody has any questions of your own, once again our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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That's royaldiadem .com. Make sure you mention Chris Arnzen of Onyx Sherpa and Zion Radio. We are now back with Devin Crawford, and we are discussing his journey out from the clutches of the occult and into the saving embrace of Christ Jesus.

We also have as my cohost his pastor at the Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, Jeremy Brandenburg.

And if you have questions of your own, submit them to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. But if you could pick up where you left off,

Devin, on this manifestation of some kind of an entity that appeared to you in your home one night, and pick it up from there.

Okay. I'd like to jump back real quick on divination.

A good biblical example is with Moses.

You went blank there, Devin. Did you click mute or something? And him throwing his rod down.

Okay. And it turning into a snake. Right. And the magicians throwing their rods down, and Moses is ultimately eating the magician's snake.

Or with the plagues, how they replicated the plagues, but it can only go so far on what

God allowed. Right. With Moses, the miracles were real, and with the sorcerers, they were fake.

It could have been an interpretation of illusion, yeah. Okay. Just so people have a better understanding.

Yeah, back to the paranormal encounter.

Yeah, I recall sitting on the couch and this thing calling out to me.

And, you know, I was being drawn into a lot of different teachings,

Jewish mysticism, Kabbalah. And I wasn't deeply into it, but I recall studying the quote -unquote tree of life that they have.

By the way, I had peach Kabbalah yesterday. It was delicious. I'm sorry. Keep going.

I'm sorry. Hello. I recall being drawn into certain teachings, particularly

Jewish mysticism and New Age stuff. Right. And even I was curious to get into Freemasonry and a lot of the symbolism that's there.

Right. And numerology and, you know,

I was dispensational during the time. You mean you were professing

Christian when all this was going on? No, not necessarily, but I was trying to understand the end.

And, you know, it deeply terrified me because I read it from a literal point of view.

And I recall my grandfather listening to a guy on like a televangelist, not anything like Joel Osteen.

But this guy definitely had a lot of—he had one false teaching that I can tell you guys about.

It's the Serpent Seed Doctrine. Oh, yeah, I've heard of that. It's a very rare Calvinist, hyper -Calvinist view.

Yeah, where Eve slept with the serpent, and that's how Cain came about, which is a false teaching.

And that's how people were divided between the sheep and the goats, or the good and the evil.

Definitely a false teaching. Doesn't necessarily—it's not a salvific teaching,

I wouldn't per se, but definitely not a direction on where you need to be viewing people.

And a very tiny percentage of people in the 21st century believe in this.

Right, and because of my lack of understanding, including my own looking into Revelation and studying the end,

I was fearing God's judgment. And I was afraid because of the things that it says about the wicked, or about the judgment that's to come, and everything else.

I felt very condemned. And I kind of just wanted to end my life because of all the guilt and shame of my past sins, of my past life.

And during this encounter, it terrified me, and it drove me to seek out

God, to pray to God. So that was a Romans 8 -28 situation, where even though this was demonic,

God used it to drive you to himself. Yeah, absolutely.

Providentially. I would go so far to say that there is, in one sense, a satanic providence, but God is ultimately sovereign over it with his providence.

Stephen Charnock, I really recommend Divine Providence by Stephen Charnock. That is an excellent book for any

Christian. I know that he's one of the great heroes of the Reformed faith. Yeah, he actually dives into a chapter, and I can't recall what chapter.

I'm like 125 pages in. I really can't recall what chapter, but he talks about satanic providence in one sense, or dark providence, he also calls it.

And I think God used that to draw me closer to him. You know, the demonic forces were definitely influencing me and trying to teach me the so -called dark arts.

It's really just a bunch of biblical concepts that are twisted.

Are rituals involved? Ouija boards? A book of spells of any kind?

I never got involved in anything like that. Particularly my main involvements were

Kabbalah and angel numbers and interpreting dreams and lucid dreaming and trying to reach that God status or whatever you want to call it.

Usually New Age is all about self -centeredness and the God in you. So it's kind of like the universe is speaking to you, a lot of people will say, in the

New Age. And before I go on to allow Pastor Jeremy to ask a question, is there anything that you're aware of in your thought process or activities that were specifically connected to the possibility of quote -unquote conjuring up this manifestation?

Was it something that totally shocked you that you weren't expecting or is it actually the result of something that you were hoping would happen in some way?

Usually, yeah, it has to deal with your hopes, aspirations and dreams and you focus on them and they come into your life.

But it's kind of like sick and twisted in terms of what you really want, you don't really get.

I would say that God was withholding the demonic forces from granting my desires because there was plenty of opportunities that Satan provided for me to do things that God, looking back now,

I know that God thwarted. So yeah, it definitely has to do with your thought patterns or the way you're thinking.

I mean, if you look at Joel Osteen, he kind of teaches this about living your best life now.

Well, I know that the word of faith movement in general is very, even though it's unconscious, at least with most people,

I'm sure I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. It connected to the occult because they do things very similar, like creating reality through their words, almost as if declaring the name of Jesus becomes a spell of some kind.

And things positively developing in your life, whether financially or through your health, all have to do with things that you declare.

And that's why the word of faith people are told never say bad or gloomy or depressing things because by saying them, you're going to manifest them in your life, that kind of thing.

But Pastor Jeremy, you have a question of your own? Yeah, sure. Thanks, Chris. So, Devin, at this point, were you working when all this stuff was happening, or what were you doing outside of all the bad things you were doing?

And also, you mentioned when you had this experience that you had the Bible. Where did you get the

Bible? OK. During this point,

I was in my last year of school, and I went cyber because I hated school during that time.

And I got kicked out. I moved in with my grandparents and stayed there, and my grandfather obviously is listening to this televangelist that teaches this false serpent seed doctrine, and he's very dispensational.

By the way, who was that televangelist? Because that's like a very unusual and rare belief, at least in our day and age.

Chapel Point Ministries. I don't know the name of the minister. Not to be affiliated with the

Chapel Point Nursing Home in Carlisle. Yeah. I don't know the name of the minister.

I can't think of his name. OK. I was just curious, because hardly anybody knows, even

Calvinists don't even know about that, and it has its roots in hyper -Calvinism.

Right. I've talked to a lot of people about it. A lot of people are like, what is that? But during the time

I wasn't working, I was going to school and kind of like getting high all the time outside of doing my schoolwork.

They're in school, they're teaching you about psychology and all these worldly things. And then on my spare time,

I was just studying New Age practices and diving into the cultic stuff online.

And in some direction, I feel like there was demonic forces providing these resources or directing me in some way to instructions on the so -called dark arts.

But the Bible my grandfather had. And then

I ended up finding his grandmother's Bible. And that's how

I kind of got introduced to it. And, you know, my grandfather's very dispensational as well.

So it kind of struck fear into me. And I wanted to learn more.

But during the time, I could tell you, I was not sealed with the Holy Spirit.

I was very fearful of judgment and I felt like God was distant and angry. And I was really ashamed of my sins.

I mean, I couldn't tell you. I cried for weeks probably of weeping.

I could probably fill a swimming pool with all the tears that I cried because of how full of shame and guilt

I felt. It would not surprise me that the enemy was whispering into my ear in one way or another of the guilt and the just condemnation that I deserved during that time.

And Pastor Jeremy, do you have another question? And it will require either a short answer or Devin continuing the answer after we go to our midway break.

Because we only got about five minutes right now before the midway break. Yeah, I'm also curious,

Devin, if you can think back to when you started to pray, when you started to, you know, you're looking into all these dark things and this, you know, pagan spirituality.

When did you in your heart of hearts begin to say, you know, God, just help me or something like that?

Do you remember? Yeah, it was like a day after that demonic encounter with seeing that figure.

I remember getting down on my knees and asking the Lord to protect me from the evil one.

Because I knew, I knew this, something inside of me knew that this thing was not a dead relative or an angel.

And I just got down on my knees and I'm telling you the presence of that, whatever that evil is, was there when

I was praying. And, you know, I was having a lot of thoughts, intrusive thoughts, but I remember getting down on my knees like a day afterwards and just praying

God for protection and mercy. And before we go to the break, this is just out of my own curiosity because of something that the son of the woman who led me to Christ, the son who is not yet a born again believer, but I believe is being drawn.

He was startled and awakened one morning, according to his his story, with a manifestation of the figure of a man.

But inside the outline of what would be, you know, the human body, the head, the neck, the torso, the legs, everything looked like static that you would see in a television set that had lost connection with the cable system or something.

Did it look anything like that where it was static? I'm just curious because that's what he's exactly like that.

Oh, really? Yeah. Wow. That's creepy. Well, that gives you more.

It terrified me, Chris. It terrified this this young man as well.

And I just want to mention something. I usually mention this on my show when we are discussing anything in this realm, because of all

Christians, reformed people will typically be the most skeptical of any of this being true.

I have to remind my listeners who are reformed, especially or even inform them if they've never heard this before, that one of our modern day heroes will, at least in the mid 20th century, he had his ministry.

A .W. Pink is hardly a reformed person in the world that doesn't know about and love the writings of A .W.

Pink and who has not benefited from his his teachings. But A .W.

Pink was involved in the occult before he became a Christian. And he said that he witnessed and experienced things that could not be explained away by parlor tricks that he believed were genuine manifestations of Satan and his minions and not the tricks of charlatans or even the natural tricks that that things play upon our eyes and minds.

Just because we're misinterpreting something that we're seeing because of light and shadow and so on.

So I just wanted to let our listeners know that and you could get from the banner of truth the biography of A .W.

Pink by Ian Murray. And that is in there. I just thought I'd throw that out there because I'm sure and I'm I'll bet you,

Pastor Jeremy, you are aware of this, that reformed people tend to be overly skeptical about this because the charismatic and Pentecostal world over emphasize this stuff to the point where, you know, people are making stuff up.

And a lot of it is a lot of it is lies of charlatans when they bring up things like this.

But would you concur that that's your experience with a reformed response typically?

Yeah, I think, you know, if you look at reformed theologians historically, there is a there is,

I think, a solid awareness of the demonic realm and the fact that we are in a spiritual battle.

But I think because we tend to be more academically oriented, there can be even if it's not a direct or, you know, even if it's not intentional, there can kind of be a de -emphasis of the fact that, yeah, we're not just material.

We're living in a in a world that is we're surrounded by the supernatural. I mean, that we don't talk about angels a lot either.

But, you know, there's things that are very explicit throughout Scripture about the presence of angels and the fact that the angels are involved in the salvation of believers.

They're they're messengers sent to bring the good news. So, yeah, we should be mindful of that and say say everything the

Scripture says about all that the Scripture says. We have to go to our midway break.

We'll be right back. I'm Dr.

Joseph Piper, president emeritus and professor of systematic and applied theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

In the film Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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He sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

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God bless you. Chris Arnzen here, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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That's solid -ground -books .com. Before I return to our interview today with Devin Crawford and his pastor,

Jeremy Brandenburg of Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, as we discuss

Devin's journey out from the occult and into the embrace, the saving embrace of Christ Jesus, we just have a couple of more important announcements to make.

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But if you love the show and you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to provide for church and family and you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, please share some of that money with us if you really want us to continue to exist.

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. Last but not least, if you are not a member of a

Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid church like Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches, and I've helped many people all over the planet

Earth find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live. And that could be you, too, if you are without a

Christ -honoring, biblically faithful church home. If that is the case, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Devin Crawford as we continue our conversation on the journey out of the occult that he experienced into the saving embrace of Christ Jesus.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Let me go to one listener question before we continue on with our conversation.

We have Amanda in Copeg, Long Island, New York.

And Amanda wants to know, was either a worship of Satan or things that can be identified as Satanic ritual or activity ever a part of your occultic experience?

Yeah, I would say so. During high school, I remember a friend bringing in one of the

Satanic Bibles. I never got involved in terms of reading it.

It's very man -centered and humanistic, at least modern day Satanism.

But actual Satan worship, no. During the time,

I was kind of an nihilist. Anton LaVey, the author of the Satanic Bible, didn't even believe

Satan existed. His false religion was self -worship. Right.

But I did get involved through social media with a girl that I knew in high school.

She was doing rituals and seances and practicing stuff like that.

But God prevented it. You keep cutting out. I don't know why,

Devin. Are you there? One other thing I did want to mention.

If you guys do support Chris Arntzen, he's not asking you to sow a seed of faith of $5 ,000.

He's very faithful, and he uses his money wisely. It is to a good cause to get the gospel out there and to proclaim the truth and solidly grounded churches.

So we do appreciate that, Chris. Yes, and of course, $5 ,000 is Trump change.

I'm looking for like $10 ,000. And so,

Pastor Jeremy, you have another question, a follow -up question to ask? Well, yeah,

I think it'd be good to hear how we've heard a lot about the darkness. I want to hear, I think a lot of people probably want to hear about the light.

How did you, Devin, what was the step? So you said after that experience that was really haunting and terrifying, then you prayed.

So what was the, how were you led to the Lord? How did you meet Christ? It's kind of like an uphill and downhill battle.

I recall one of my friends experiencing the same forms of divination with numerology.

And I reached out to him, and he invited me to his family's church. It was a

Lutheran church, and I ended up attending there for a while. And I ended up getting baptized there.

And then I remember like a week after the demonic encounter,

I went to this party that I got invited to, you know, because I'm not really solidly rooted yet.

And I got plastered and probably high.

I got really high and plastered drunk. And there was a lot of fighting at the party.

Just to sum it up quickly, I remember people getting kicked out and there was a lot of fighting.

And I remember slamming a table down, then I got thrown out of the party. And it's like 2 or 3 a .m.

You know, I was drinking all night from like 9 o 'clock. And I remember stumbling home in the pitch black and something.

It's like this circle where my grandparents live. And I remember walking around.

It's probably about a quarter mile and maybe about 500 to 600 feet outside after getting kicked out.

I remember walking along the embankment. And there's a ditch.

And something told me to pick this piece of paper up. Devin, you keep cutting out.

I don't know if you're aware of that. I cannot hear you, Devin. Jeremy, are you there?

Even the very hairs on your head are numbered, for you were made in my image. In me you live and move and have your being, for you are my offspring.

I knew you even before you were conceived. I chose you when I planned creation. You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book.

Sorry, I'm getting emotional. I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live.

You are fearfully and wonderfully made. I knit you in your mother's womb, and I brought you forth on the day you were born.

I have been misrepresented by those who do not know me. I am not distant and angry, but I am the complete expression of love.

It is my desire to lavish my love on you, simply because you are my child, and I am your father.

I offer more than your earthly father ever could, for I am the perfect father. Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand, for I am your provider, and I will meet all your needs.

My plan for your future has always been filled with hope, because I love you with an everlasting love.

My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore, and I rejoice over you with singing.

I will never stop doing good to you, for you are my treasured possession. I desire to establish you with all my heart and all my soul, and I want to show you great and marvelous things.

If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me. Delight in me, and I will give you the desires of your heart, for it is

I who gave you those desires. I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine, for I am your greatest encourager.

I am also the father who comforts you in all your trouble. When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you.

As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to my heart. One day,

I will wipe away every tear from your eyes, and I will take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth.

I am your father, and I love you even as I love my son, Jesus. For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed.

He is the exact representation of my being. He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you, and to tell you that I am not counting your sins.

Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled. His death was the ultimate expression of my love for you.

I gave up everything I loved so that I might gain your love. If you receive the gift of my son, Christ, you receive me, and nothing will ever separate you from my love again.

Come home, and I'll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen. I have always been father and will always be father.

My question is, will you be my child? I am waiting for you. So that's the track that I picked up, and it opened my eyes about how

God is not distant and angry, and how He is the full expression of love, and how He wants to reconcile my relationship with Him.

And it changed how I viewed God. Like I previously stated,

I felt like God was distant and angry, and He was often misrepresented by those who didn't know

Him and by the world. And I was weeping as I read this letter because it really shows the intimacy of the

Trinitarian God that we serve. Now, did you say that was a track that was given to you? It wasn't given to me.

It was crumbled up like someone threw it out into the ditch, all muddy, and I picked it up. Wow.

Providentially, it was there, and something told me to pick it up. Wow. That is amazing because most people, and probably even you, wouldn't even bother to pick up a crumpled up wet piece of paper to read it, and there you have it.

Right. I would like to know not only how you got a continuing description of how you got drawn to Christ, but also specifically

Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle and the Reformed faith. Did you discover the

Reformed faith before visiting Redeemer OPC, or was that something that you learned about after you visited there and joined there?

Okay, yeah. After this letter thing, I was continuing to go to that Lutheran church, and I ended up moving back in with my parents in Elliottsburg, Perry County, and I was seeking out another church, and I ended up getting mixed in with, believe it or not,

Jehovah's Witnesses, and I was not knowing any better of the doctrines that they teach, the false doctrines of the divinity of Christ and many other false teachings that they teach, and until I was revealed that by whatever revelation they speak whenever they have their worship services,

I stopped going there and started studying, and I really wrestled with the divinity of Christ for probably about a few weeks, and then

I found Ligonier stuff while doing my research, and I was out of a church for probably around a year, maybe a year and a half, and I was just studying

Ligonier series, R .C. Sproul, John Gerstner, pretty much anyone that's on Ligonier.

I would come home after work, and I would spend a good three hours just listening and studying and reading, and so that's how

I got introduced to the Reformed faith, and then I found out about Banner of Truth, which

I'm very grateful for them, and I reached out to them on Instagram and asked them for a solid church, and they recommended three churches in the area, one of them being

Redeemer OPC, and I decided to start going to Redeemer, and it was during COVID, and I ended up actually getting kicked out of my house because my parents were very adamant about COVID and not being out around others, and I disobeyed my parents by going out, but I needed to get into a solid church and be obedient to the

Lord, and so I moved in with my lesbian aunt and her girlfriend, and they allowed me to go to church, and I've been going there ever since.

Jeremy, when did you start ministering at Redeemer? February 2021.

So it was around that time that I joined the church. It wasn't very long after that that I started attending, rather, and I got to minister to my aunt and share the gospel with her, warn her of the wrath to come if she continues to live in her homosexuality.

It was a battle living there. It's just not easy whenever you live with people that are adamantly expressing their sin in such ways, but I got to share the gospel with her, and I ended up moving out of there because it's not ideal.

But it's better to be in a church and be allowed to go to church than to not be in a church, regardless of your situation.

I'm sure there's people that are in situations where you have to do what you have to do for the moment, but God definitely helped me grow in my relationship with Him, in my defense of sin, in my battle against sin, and Redeemer has helped me a lot, and I've grown and developed a lot of friendships and relationships and discipleships and mentors, and I'm really grateful for everything that the church has brought.

By the way, I want to remind, or I should say inform, Amanda in Coltague, Long Island, who submitted a question earlier.

You have won a free copy of Devin Crawford's book, Prayers, Proverbs, and Meditations from My New Life in Jesus, and perhaps before we forget to do this and run out of time before we ever do it, do you have your book handy?

Because I'd like you to read at least one meditation from this book, perhaps even

Like a River, Oh My Love Letter, or your love letter. And if you don't have that handy, we'll have

Jeremy ask you a question right away. Yeah, I have it handy. Okay, why don't you read

Like a River? I'll read, hold on,

I'll read My Love Letter. Okay. God, you're the upholder of all things.

Through your voice, everything obeys. The Lord you create by command.

Your providence is a reminder of how I can truly rest in your chambers, Lord. The comfort that is intricately working for your will,

Lord. Even the devils are bound by chains and Satan is bound by your hand. You're the keeper of all things, the

God of wisdom, the God of love and mercy. You, Lord, had favor and mercy on my soul. You redeemed me from my bondages, from my spiritual blindness.

You, Lord, are truly redemptive. Lord, all who have truly been saved rejoice in you.

Lord, do you understand how grateful we, who were once oppressed by the enemy's malignant scepter, are?

Surely I know you do, omniscient one. Lord, you broke all my chains of oppression.

Lord, you remind me how deeply you love me and you remind me how significant I am. I love you, Father, Friend, Master.

May I be a slave of righteousness. May I be a righteous son. May I be a faithful friend.

May I be a faithful bride. I long for you, my true love, my beloved. Amen.

Amen. That's beautiful. Let's see, we do have another listener. We have

Titus in Washington, Pennsylvania. And Titus says, this is more of a question for Pastor Jeremy.

I was wondering if you believe that those who are already born again can experience things like Devin experienced before he was saved.

And I'm assuming he's talking, I think he must be talking about the manifestations and stuff like that. I know that you and I would never believe that a true

Christian can be demon -possessed. But to what extent can we be oppressed and haunted and taunted?

And can it ever involve anything like that? Can I incur? Go ahead.

I would recommend reading the Book of Job. I mean, I don't think that we'll ever experience the anguish that Job experienced in terms of demonic oppression.

But I do believe that it can actively happen in a Christian's life. And I'll leave it up to you,

Jeremy. Yeah, in the case of Job, though, he never saw Satan, to my knowledge, though.

It was God that had the dialogue with Satan. Right. OK, go ahead,

Jeremy. Yeah, well, it's good to think about what the Scripture says. And, you know, it's kind of remarkable when you look at it's really interesting to look at the

Gospels. And I think we kind of fool ourselves to think that the demonic world, just because we don't experience it in the same way.

And I do believe there was a heightened level of activity from the demonic realm when

Christ was on Earth. Obviously. But the Apostle Paul talks about believers.

You're not thinking rightly. You're not. If we're not anticipating the devil's attacks, if we're not anticipating the schemes of the evil one,

I don't think obviously no Christian who has the Holy Spirit can be possessed by a demon, as you said.

But Paul says, I have a I have a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, whom

God has permitted to, you know, oppress him. So I think believers can be oppressed.

But I think the as far as the actual experience Devin had. Yeah, I don't know.

I can't really speak to that. I would say that that to me, it's unlikely and I don't see any biblical support for believers having that kind of a an experience of a demonic presence, if that makes sense.

Now, what do you think, since you and I revere as a hero of our faith,

Martin Luther, what do you think about his descriptions of being harassed by Satan?

I don't know if he was using hyperbole and poetic language and so on, but he basically threw an inkwell at Satan, according to his own story, because of the harassment of the devil.

Do you think that these stories of his were actual visits by Satan or was he was it tricks of the eye and mind?

Was it just a highly exaggerated, hyperbolic account?

You know, do you have any idea on that? Not that Luther is binding, like the inerrant God breathed words of Scripture, but it is somebody that we tend to highly esteem as a hero of our faith, even though we are not

Lutherans or Calvinists. But what do you think? Yeah, well,

I think that's interesting. I don't know. I'm not sure what to say that I think of my own personal experiences that there is, you know, it's not it is an inward oppression.

It's an oppression of the mind. I think all believers should realize that they are they're under attack from Satan when they're exposed to the terrible temptations.

And so just because you haven't had an experience like Devin doesn't mean that you shouldn't realize that when you are when you're when you have evil thoughts confront you, that kind of just come out of the blue.

That's that's demonic. And Satan, Satan is active and his his minions are active.

And I think C .S. Lewis and the screw tape letters does a great job of kind of trying to to draw out what demonic activity looks like.

And it doesn't for in Devin's case. Yeah, he had this experience that terrified him. But that's the devil is very clever.

The Bible says that he was the most clever of all. The serpent was the most clever of all the creatures that God had made.

And he operates in different ways. As far as Luther's experiences. Yeah. I mean, Luther was a man greatly used by God.

So it doesn't surprise me that he had those kinds of very intense encounters with the demonic.

So you're right. Can I mention something? Go ahead. I think this is

Tauser. He said Satan, like a fisher, baits his hook according to the appetite of the fish.

However, this is my edition. However, God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth, calling us to be fishers and men.

I would emphasize that our own sinfulness oftentimes, wherever your weaknesses are, say you like gossiping or or you have issues with lust.

You know, Satan is very clever in terms of baiting the hook according to our appetite. So we we have to be aware of that also.

Yes. And what I was asking Jeremy on the heels of what he just said.

So when you say that you could readily understand, especially since the role that Luther played was monumental in the uncovering of the gospel that Rome had hidden through their lies, heresies, blasphemies, superstitions and idolatry for centuries.

That Luther was a a person at a pivotal point in history that God used to restore the gospel to the church.

Do you think that perhaps because of the uniqueness of someone like him, that these manifestations were actually visibly seen manifestations of Satan?

I think it's possible, but I, you know,

I wouldn't know where to point to in scripture to say, you know, I don't think we can't we can't say, you know, conclusively, but I think it's possible.

And I think there are it's not just a mental and a psychological thing.

I think the the devil can there's spiritual oppression that can cross over into, you know, the physical also.

Well, we have to go to our final break right now. And if you have a question of your own, submit it to Chris Arms and a gmail dot com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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And we are now back with Devin Crawford, who has been discussing his journey out from the occult and into the saving embrace of Christ Jesus.

We've also had on the program his pastor, who's been a guest on this program before,

Jeremy Brandenburg of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation.

And Pastor Jeremy, any follow -up questions that you could ask Devin? Yeah, one last question.

So basically, Devin, after you became a Christian, everything was great, you had no troubles, and the rest of your life has been a cakewalk, right?

That's the best way to sum it up. As Joel Olsteen says, live your best life now.

No, it's definitely been a—it's really hard being a

Christian. It's not for the weak or the faint -hearted. It's definitely very challenging.

And, you know, as God reveals the sin in your life more and more, you just realize how desperately you need

Christ and how wicked you really are. You know, imagine God—if God unleashed and revealed to us all of how sinful we are all at once, we would fall to the ground.

Maybe we would, you know, melt into a pile of nothingness.

But thankfully, He doesn't do that. Amen. Yeah, He slowly, over time, reveals our sin to us.

And it's the sanctification process of making us more like Christ Jesus and conforming us to His image.

And it's a glorious thing that we're adopted as sons and heirs, sons and daughters.

Daughters also are referenced in when Christ calls them sons, that we are heirs to His kingdom.

And in that sense, Jesus Christ is like our elder brother. And we have the same rights to the

Father as Jesus Christ did when He was in the flesh on the earth.

And it's a glorious thing that we can have communion with our

Trinitarian God. And let me clarify something that you said, and I'm sure you'd agree with me, when you said

Christianity is not for the weak. Well, in one very powerful sense, it is for the weak if we acknowledge our weakness and put our trust in Christ and His power and strength.

Yeah, I agree with you. But I'm trying to emphasize that it's not for the fainthearted, people that give up easily.

Yeah, people who want to remain sinless. Or people that are trying to find the easy path. Following Christ is not easy.

You're going to be persecuted. You're going to be hated. You're going to lose family members. You're going to have disputes. You're going to have so many conflicts.

And you need to be truly born again to withstand against them.

Yes. And if a person who has been saved, especially for a long time, has never experienced conflict, it is likely and possibly at least due to the fact that they are not clearly declaring the true biblical message.

Very rarely does somebody who is actively involved in declaring

Christ and Him crucified, very rarely does such a person go unscathed in this world.

Yes. And, Pastor Jeremy, before we run out of time, why don't you conclude with some words of counsel and perhaps edification to our listeners?

Well, yeah, I would say that, you know, Devin has a powerful testimony, but biblically—and

I know Devin knows this, and you know this, Chris— but biblically, every Christian's testimony is the same in the sense that we were all dead in our trespasses and sins just because Devin had, you know, a scarier life and had some deep troubles.

We were all in deep trouble. And apart from the intervention of God in our lives by the

Holy Spirit, when we hear the word and we respond, that's the Holy Spirit working in our lives to draw us to Jesus Christ.

And so you don't need to seek after a dramatic testimony, because every believer was dead, and they've been made alive.

And our hope is that we are already even seated with the Lord Jesus Christ.

And it says in Ephesians that all of the principalities and powers—so there are demons.

There are demonic forces that, like we talked about, can attack believers, will attack believers, will attack the church.

It's even, you know, really, I think once we're in glory, we'll have a fuller understanding.

But we won't really care anymore because we'll be with Jesus, and Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. But the thing to know as a

Christian is that all of these things are under the power of the

Lord Jesus, who is our Savior. And so we're protected. If you're not a Christian, then you are in danger.

And you should know that there's no middle ground, and you need to turn and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and come into his protection and his almighty care.

I love the part of the catechism where we talk about Jesus as King, how he has conquered and subdued us to himself, because that is what every one of us needs, and it's a glorious thing.

And I'm so thankful for Devin. I love you, brother. And I'm so thankful for what the

Lord has done in your life and what he's going to continue to do in your life for all of the years he will bless you with to come.

Amen. And just out of curiosity, I would love to hear your own thoughts, since you have attended, both of you have attended the pastor's luncheons in the past.

We'll start with you, Pastor Jeremy. What do you have to say about your experience? And then, Devin, you could conclude the program with your own words.

It's great fellowship, it's great teaching, and it's a lot of books, so I don't know why anyone who could go would miss out on it.

So I am looking forward to hearing Pastor Joel Beeky. And you, Devin? Yeah, I really enjoy

Chris's conferences. There's lots of resources that are provided.

And the Bible Society came one time, Buttafuoco.

The Historical Bible Society, yes. Historical Bible Society, and they had a lot of resources.

They had a book that I really admire. It's of the genealogies. Yes. I forget which book it came out of.

It might have been the King James Version. Yes, the original 1611 King James Version. Yeah, the 1611.

And it's an amazing transcribed genealogy the whole way from Adam and Eve to Christ.

And it's really cool how the elder authors throughout history were very artistic in mindset, and God gave them those sort of gifts.

And it's definitely a treasured possession. And there's tons of resources that you can get and knowledge and wisdom that you can gain from others and hearing others speak and their own testimonies.

And we're out of time, brother. So I want to remind our listeners of the website for Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, RedeemerOPC .org,

RedeemerOPC .org. You can get Devin Crawford's book, Prayers, Proverbs, and Meditations from My New Life in Jesus at Amazon .com.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.