What Is the Mission of the Church? | Greg Gilbert

We're back. With yet another episode. Does anybody want it? It doesn't matter because we're doing it. Another episode of the room for nuance podcast. I'm Sean with my guest.

Greg Gilbert. Greg will you open us in prayer brother? Sure. Well, we thank you for this opportunity that you give to me and Sean to sit for a little while and talk and have conversation about. Who knows what but Lord we pray that it would be edifying for us and for anybody who's listening in on it.

And we ask that in all of it. Jesus would be glorified in his name. Amen. Well, let's start with this tell us how you came to know the Lord brother, yeah, it's it's not that great a story. It's not as good as your story.

I was better. Well, it's a faithful family. It's shorter. Yeah, it's faithful Christian family. Southern Baptist Church all growing up was converted at 9 at a very typical fall revival meeting so our church did those you know Sunday through Thursday come to church every night and.

So I don't remember what the guy was preaching on but I do remember I Remember where we were sitting in the in the sanctuary. I remember listening to the sermon. I remember the invitation. And I just kind of leaned over to my mom at 9 years old and said I I need to go down there.

And she knew what that meant. So she put me in a conversation with my dad at home and then the next Night of the revival meeting, I guess I did the whole thing walk down the aisle. Profess faith in Christ.

I remember my father, you know really tall on this side of my pastor really tall on that side. Dad was tall taller than me at 9 years old. Yeah, and maybe even still taller than you today. No, I outstripped him eventually but then.

Did a baptism class? For six weeks and got baptized. After that, so yeah. You were gonna tell me that after you walked out they baptized you that night. Oh, no. No, no, it wasn't one of those.

So the Southern Baptist Church of your upbringing. Where was it on the spectrum of health? Uh.

That's a good question. So the the guy who was my childhood pastor was was at that he was at the church for it must have been 25 20 27 years something like that and then he retired and ultimately passed away.

But he was a he was an expositional preacher. He preached the gospel. He was not reformed. He became reformed. Actually right about the time I did so when I was a sophomore in college that's when I became reformed and he did too just kind of through independent means but He had already been a pastor at my church for I don't know 15 years by that point something like that.

So Yeah, I mean it's good church we did the things the church does people came to Christ I preached the gospel and eventually for the last 10 years of his ministry. He was he was a five-point Calvinist.

So you get saved at nine and then do you have like teenage rebellion years?

No, I was a good kid. Okay. Yeah, I made the grades. I was on a couple of sports teams. Okay. I was never an athlete. Okay, never played.

Was it aspirational. Not really, okay.

Way more academics. Yeah. Oh, yeah, but I was on the basketball team all four years. Okay, never played. Okay. Literally didn't play. Yeah ever would you like I mean just you enjoy to go into practice or what?

No, not that either. It's it's funny I've told this story before so some some of these people will hear it. But so my the Before the basketball season started my senior year the coach called me into his office because I had talked to him.

He was my Sunday school teacher actually as well as basketball coach. Where was this, Texas, Texas. And so he said he said I know you've been thinking about about quitting or not playing your senior year.

He said that in a normal world. That's probably a good idea because you're not gonna get any playing time. You and I both know that you're really bad at this. But he said He said listen I need you to stay on the team and I said why coach and he said because if we don't average your GPA and We're gonna go on academic probation with the district.

And so I said, okay. Well, I need something from you then and he said what he's then I said Well, I want to be the captain of the team and he said he said you got to be kidding me. You can't be the captain and never play and I said well.

Those are my terms and so he made me were you were you playing it serious though? Oh, absolutely because I was building a resume for college. Yeah, like I needed to put I needed to put captain of the basketball team on my my resume.

So he finally gave in so every game I would Strut out to center court and shake the ref's hands and the other team and I was the captain and then I never Never set foot on the court. Wow pretty much the entire season.

I don't know if I got you beat but I think I have. I think I have an Similar story for various reasons I was For various reasons I was late to register for school my freshman year in high school and all of the.

What are the classes that you don't have to. Electives. All the electives were taken and so they put me in band. I.

Don't know how to play instrument. I don't know how to read music, but you learned no.

I didn't they they tried to teach me like one scale on a trumpet and within like an hour This is not gonna work. So what they did was they had me go out on the field in March and Pretend to play the trumpet and whenever like in the bleachers the band would get up and do the thing.

I would get up and do the thing. Yeah pretend to. But you weren't allowed to actually blow through the trumpet. It would have been bad. I.

Remember at one point I was like, I'm gonna take it home and I'm gonna I'm gonna show them I'm gonna like try to learn to play the trumpet but smoking weed just got in the way of that.

So I thought you were gonna say they gave you like a Snapple bottle and a stick and just beat it.

No, I wish that have been awesome, okay, so high school you go off to college at.

Yale University. Yale University, so East Texas to New Haven, Connecticut a little bit of a culture shock. Huge. Yeah, but I loved it. I was I was ready to get out of small-town East, Texas. So that old trailer I Was ready to go.

Yeah, so loaded it all up went to New Haven, Connecticut. A huge culture shock. New Haven pizza overrated or underrated. Neither it's highly rated and it's delicious. Okay. I mean it depends on the place, but that's true.

But a lot of people don't even know New Haven pizza exists.

I'm not sure any other pizza actually exists. I think it's all knockoffs. Except except you know, who is.

He does the pizza bite. He's putting it back on the map. I mean, it's delicious. Yeah Pepe's pizza. That's his number one rated spot in the whole country. So, okay.

So you were right around that area? Yeah, you were living it up. Yeah, it was within walking distance.

Okay, so you go to Yale as a Christian. Yep. What's it like? Yep. Yep.

Very very different from East, Texas. Very different. Because in in the little town where I grew up is like 2 ,500 people something like that pretty much everybody Believed in Jesus like no one. You didn't find an atheist.

You didn't find even an agnostic. Everyone believes they just. You know, the struggle was whether you're gonna live out your belief or not cultural Christian at Yale. Yeah. Everything was on the chopping block.

Everything was challenged. You know that going into it Not as Deeply as I probably should have. I mean, I knew it was gonna be. I knew it was gonna be different and and Difficult in that way. Yeah. But I I didn't know that I was gonna wind up Being challenged at literally every point of my faith.

Did you have like your first day of English lit class where your professor gets up and.

Tries to destroy the faith of every freshman. No, I didn't have that. I had my roommates freshman year roommates. Who that every single one of them was a character? You know, I liked them. We had a good time together.

But man, there were no Christians among my at four roommates. No Christians so there was a Sort of almost atheist Reformed Jewish guy that was one of them and he and I probably had the most spiritual conversation.

He was he was very interested in you know, very smart. So he would challenge me on everything. There was a self-proclaimed Philosophical hedonist who basically told us day one. My goal is to do as many drugs And sleep with as many women and maybe some men also as I possibly can so just fair warning.

So he told us that up front then there was an honest to God Rastafarian like in all the whole religion water black. Here's a white guy. So not not quite honest Irish even you know, I mean, you know redheaded.

I mean like an Irish looking sort of guy. Here's an honest to God Rastafarian by which I mean like he adopted the whole religion. It wasn't just for the marijuana. Like he he was he was into it and then there was this Agnostic or just apathetic Economist guy who eventually Converted to Rastafarian ism because he liked the weed.

So those were my roommates and and it was just a very different thing that I'd ever seen in East, Texas.

Now were you like I mean had you been well discipled Christian worldview? Did you know your Bible apologetics or were you kind of just like, you know?

A Mixture, you know, I mean I'd been well discipled in terms of the Christian life in terms of defending the faith not so much so a lot of my college career with those four guys and then the roommate that I wound up with.

In the last three years a lot of my college Kind of career was figuring out how to defend the faith. So I'd get into you know, 2 a .m arguments with roommates and Get stuck on something and not know how to answer the question or feel like I was, you know losing and so the next day I would go meet up with a guy who was discipling me and say how do you answer this question?

You know, what what's the answer to that and he would tell me and over time over those four years I just kind of built up really from from the from the ground up a defense of the Christian faith. As I understand it, so it was really good for me in that sense.

Yeah, I can imagine.

I mean, I also could imagine it going the other way, but God's grace is amazing. Were you a member of a church there? Not for the first two years. Okay. Yeah, I mean healthy churches around the hard to find.

I imagine not really.

I mean there were there were probably three churches that I was sort of bouncing around to at the time. There was a charismatic church and then there was a more liberal Baptist Church and then a very conservative great Presbyterian Church.

Yeah, and I kind of bounced around to those tried. There was a time when I tried really really hard to be a Presbyterian and I desperately wanted to be a Presbyterian and just couldn't make Baptism work couldn't make pedo-baptism work in my head.

But I finally joined a church 20 miles north of New Haven. But that was kind of in the wake of Me understanding that I was gonna go into ministry. Okay, so I joined that church in order to become a youth minister.

Were you a part of like campus ministries? Oh, yeah, we were we had a we had a crew. We just called it Campus Crusade for Christ back back back in those days. That was a big organization. So Thursday night large group would have 150 200 kids at it.

So that that was big. And then we had a BSU Baptist Student Union. Baptist Student Union. They go BCM now, I think Baptist Campus Ministries my first sermon I ever preached was at a Baptist Student Union.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mine was in a tiny little church in East, Texas. Yeah, oh as a teenager. No as a 20 year old. Okay. Yeah. So you came back to town. Came back to town at Christmas and preached. It did not.

So I it was about the time I was becoming reformed too so I had gotten a hold of the book that reformed me basically was John Piper's the pleasures of God and I read that thing about 15 times and.

Finally took the book to this this crew guy 15 times. How much of an exaggeration is that slight?

5 I probably read the whole book three times, but you remember chapter 5. Chapter 5 was God's pleasure in election. That I'm that I read 15 times. And I finally took it to this guy who was discipling me a crew guy and I kind of kind of threw the book down on his desk and I said There it is.

I said this guy has figured it out. Like all questions of theology are answered this John Paper guy this John peeper guy right here Has figured it all out so he read a little bit of it and he said oh This is Calvinism and I you know, what's that.

And then he showed me, you know whole library.

So he was reformed. Oh, yeah. He was okay. Yeah. Here's my John Piper story. I was coming out of the prosperity gospel trying to figure everything out. I was I didn't have a church. I was newly in the army stationed in Seattle very secular hostile culture.

Spent a lot of time on my space you remember my space, okay and Somebody was posted a Paul Washer video. Obviously got me right. That was a shocking youth message, you know and YouTube just had that thing where you could go down the rabbit hole.

So like Paul Washer video led to a John Piper video. I Said who is this guy and then he had this prosperity gospel sermon jam. Do you remember sermon jams? Somebody would see ya and I saw it and I was just coming.

I was on the verge of coming out of the prosperity gospel and I was livid. I was like, ah, I thought this guy was solid. This guy sucks. Who is this idiot John Piper? And I couldn't shake him like I remember I would go back and try to read some of my prosperity gospel guys and I was just like John Piper's voice would be in my head and I was just like Nobody handles the word like that.

And so I made a rule for myself I would go back and I would like read his books or watch his sermons but if he said anything about the prosperity gospel, I would just fast-forward that part, you know and So like so many other people John Piper was my introduction to a healthier happier version of Christianity.

Yeah, the Lord's used that man in extraordinary ways. I want to go back to your college stuff. But just since we're talking about Piper.

Unfair to say he's the Spurgeon of our day. Oh My goodness.

Unfair. I Don't know I I don't I can't think of any other man that has affected a general that has affected our generation of Christians and yeah pastors like John Piper. I agree. Yeah, so maybe I mean, I don't know how to I don't know how to think in terms of centuries and all the rest.

But for our generation. He he were formed our Reformed generation. Yeah, right. I agree. Yeah, the Lord did through him.

It's interesting that you brought up the pleasures of God because desiring God is kind of the main book that we think of but So many people mark included they just say yeah, sorry God. Great. Couldn't read it all but the pleasures of God, you know and future grace.

Yeah, I've heard people say that the pleasures of God is the white hot center of John Piper's way of thinking and I think that's got to be right every time I think.

Another Piper book, I don't really need to read this, you know, I've kind of got it. Christian hedonism. My world was exploded been there done that and then I'll just go back and I feel like oh, it's just as good as I remember.

Yeah, so good. I Am praying unto the Lord daily and I'm and I'm using like Joel Beakey did I'm using thighs and these and thousand trying to use The King's English in my prayers hoping it'll help that will get him for room for nuance.

They're protecting him, dude. They're like listen, he's 78. He's got a lot of writing to do. He only has so much energy.

Just just do like you did to me. Send him a text message that says I'm coming to get you at three o 'clock. Just act like it's on the schedule.

But hey, I will kidnap him. I mean that's what you're getting at. I will kidnap I mean he's downstairs. He's right here. He looked a little bored. So he would probably welcome Action. He's sitting there just kind of.

You know, anyways, he's he's he's watching this guy preaching. He's like, yeah, he's no John Piper.

He's writing his next book. In his head is what he's doing.

Okay back to you. Yeah, what was your undergrad degree in?

It ended up being in history, but I bounced around quite a bit from economics to political science to philosophy to.

You know history religious studies, but wound up in history. Okay, and then after you finish that what did you do?

After you were a youth pastor. Yeah after well during and after that degree I was a youth pastor, which is kind of hard to imagine a little bit. Yeah, I was younger then. Yeah. No, I mean I used to be fun I did used to be fun.

Okay. All right. Yeah icebreakers and everything. Did you play Chubby Bunny? We did. Yes. Yeah, what you can't do now. I know it's dangerous dangerous choking cuz you can you can aspirate the marsh. It's not good.

That's great. Nice. You have a medical background. My wife's a nurse. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Okay, so you were a youth pastor. So yeah youth youth pastor in a little town in Connecticut for three years, so junior year.

Senior year and then one year after that and then pretty immediately went to Capitol Hill Baptist to be an intern with. How'd you our mutual friend mark? With mark. Sure, but also yeah was mark your connection to the yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, so mark was a. He came to be a speaker at a grad student retreat for some Yale grad students and the guy that I was telling you about, you know that I threw the Piper book in front of he he was running that and So he said look you're you're two months from graduating.

Why don't you? Why don't you come with us on this grad student retreat? So mark was speaking at it. We pretty quickly he and I figured out we were the only two Southern Baptists in the room. And so we ended up talking a lot and he said well, hey, why don't you before you go to seminary?

Why don't you come to Capitol Hill for a year? Do an internship a year. It was supposed to be a year. Yeah, cuz now they're five months. Yeah. This was not this was not the Capitol Hill internship. It didn't exist yet.

So so like there were two of us. So. Well, Jonathan Lehman was was one of the guys and then is this after Shawn Lucas I.

Don't know. Okay. I think Shawn Lucas was the first one.

Which no, I thought. I thought a guy named Slezacek was the first one mark told me Shawn Lucas was the first one and well Mark's getting old and forget.

Okay, so you and Lehman are doing the internship, yeah, we did the internship.

And it was it was just very different so now here you are sitting together downstairs at the corn. I know it's amazing. Wow. Yeah, he's he's one of my oldest and best friends. I love that guy. He has just very different.

So now if you do the CHPC internship You're watching and listening and that's it. Like you don't you don't teach they don't build any ministry on you. Yeah, nothing. Yeah, that was not the case when we were there.

So Jonathan I were writing Sunday school classes and preaching on Sunday mornings and Doing discipleship and It was more like a more like a pastoral assistant or assistant pastor role. Yeah. So it wasn't anything like the current.

I think we read two books. What you're in the semester. I read 66.

I know. I wondered if that number was on purpose. He said it was yeah, I know.

The interns read a ton now. We read two books. I think I mean surely you're doing reading of your own and all that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's making recommend. Yeah, and Mark would give us so so the. When I was there one of the first things Mark did was he would feed me Popular books that were on the market and have me read them and write reviews which they would put on the website.

And so a couple has got me in trouble. Yeah, one of them got taken down.

What I'm taking down. What? Yeah one you wrote positive that now everyone shakes their head.

No, I'm not sure what that. Well, I'll figure it out. Yeah figure that on. Yeah, I don't know but it was really bad. Yeah, there were there were two of them that kind of two or three of them. They got me in trouble.

Yeah, I can't believe they were having you do that. That's so great.

Yeah, I don't know exactly what Mark was thinking. I think he was. Just kind of honing my ability to read and yeah, you know incisively look at a book and review it.

So he still has you in the internship. You have to read one bad book on ecclesiology. Okay, mine was on urban monasticism. Interesting. Man, it was bad. And not only was it bad. It was like 700 pages bad.

Oh, so I thought oh you you think you can do this to me? So I wrote a review that I tried to make as painful for Mark For him for the intern discussion as I possibly could.

Yeah, anyways, there's 700 pages worth of stuff to say about urban monasticism.

You know, I would expect you to say that Greg but this man who's changing the world. He says there is he's got more than 700 pages. Okay. Yeah, that was that was the edited version. All right. Well, that was the spark notes.

No, it was really bad. It was terrible. Okay, so You do that and then you had disseminated no temptation to hang around CHPC. Well, I ended up saying for two years.

Okay, so did. Did the one-year got married? Hung out for another year. Met your bride there. Yep. She was a she's a little older than me. She's two and a half years older than me. So she was already in DC producing radio shows actually.

But she joined Capitol Hill. Literally the same members meeting that I did. Oh, so we met, you know. The church was a lot smaller than two. It's probably only 250 people at that point. So interesting.

It was a much smaller thing. And so anyway, she and I Met and hung out, you know through just the normal social avenues and got got engaged got married and then yeah I moved to moved to Louisville in 2002 to start seminary.

Sorry, hold on. What was mark like 20 years ago?

Exactly like mark is now. Yeah, I mean, you know him. Yeah, he was who he is. He is who he was.

I wonder if he's getting a little more curmudgeonly. I. I've heard he's gotten softer. I don't know about that either. Okay. All right, so you went to Southern? Yep. Yeah. So yeah Southern Seminary. Yeah.

Did school anything Interesting about about that. I worked for Al Mahler for I think four and a half years something like that started part-time. Wound up working for him full-time. He had a daily radio show.

Yeah at that time. Different than the briefing. Yeah, it was a it was an hour-long call-in live radio show. So no recording no second takes. But part of my job was helping to produce that show so I would you know scour the web pages and newspapers and all the rest and have a stack of material highlighted and noted and all the rest to hand him as he was walking in and the opening the opening which.

The briefing kind of grew out of those openings You know. So he would pick out five stories that he wanted to talk about and but my job was to give him 50 stories every day. So that he could choose five.

And that's what I did and it took hours and hours and hours every day. And so you were doing that as you were a student. Yeah yeah, it was great because it was super flexible and You know, I just knew I needed to be it at the office at a certain time to hand that stack to him.

I've heard conflicting accounts about Al. Doing the briefing I've heard that he used uses notes, but more often than not I've heard he doesn't know notes.

He just goes in there and riffs. I've never actually seen him do the briefing. He never used no, he never used written Yeah notes when he was doing the radio show. Yeah, I mean literally he just would look at a newspaper article and sort of.

Just talk about it. I mean, yeah, so my guess is he does not use notes.

Anything fun interesting or surprising you have to share with us about Al Muller. Does he sleep about Al Muller?

He does not sleep during the week. He does. He does catch up on the weekends. He's not superhuman.

Yeah, I guess we'll come back to him later because he's an elder at your church, correct? He's a member. No, no, okay. So you finish up seminary then. Yeah, so finished up seminary.

Through that whole Six years the degree didn't take that long. I was in in Louisville for six years. Okay. Was a member of the church that I now pastor Third Avenue. We were going through a really bloody reform at the time just the church was dead by the 19 mid 1970s and it sort of zombified and stayed dead.

Until some seminary students in the late 90s started showing up and going going to that church. I got there in 2002. The sort of reform was getting really hot right about that time. So I was there through You know the hottest part of that reform and and ultimately the end of the reform to insofar as there ever is one.

But we got all the you know got a new Constitution new statement of faith You know elders which was huge. So I was right there for all of that and that was that is that whole experience was Huge for me.

I mean I learned how to I learned in certain ways how to pastor. I learned how to lead. I learned how to you know, get things done. It was huge for me going through that reform. What's the name of your church?

Third Avenue Baptist. Third Avenue Baptist and where is it located?

Louisville, Kentucky on which Avenue? Well Third Street. Ah, yeah. Yeah, Third Avenue on Third Street. Hmm.

Let's pause for a little interesting nature factoid. I found out the other day that all ants are the bugs. I found out that they're all female. Did you know that?

Yeah, how'd you find this out? Well, let me just prove it to you first.

Here's how you know, it's true. If they were males, they'd be called uncles. Oh.

You're so bad. Okay, so let's get there's your viral clip, right?

What if you just. Nah, I don't think so. Okay, so. How do you feel about Third Avenue being called the CHBC of the South?

Well, we we call them Third Avenue East.

All right. I mean since you've been there. Since you were there. Since you got there in the 90s has what. What's your impression of how Louisville has changed as far as the local church scene?

Uh, for the most part, I think the church scene has gotten stronger. Over the last I mean, I've been there for 22 years except for that that little thing in the middle. Yeah. But yeah over 22 years. It's gotten a lot stronger.

Yeah, there've been some church plants. There've been some church reforms. Yeah, but I'd say there are half a dozen or more churches in town that like if Third Avenue ceased to exist, you know in a moment.

I'd be Overjoyed to go to any of those churches in town, which is pretty amazing. Yeah, that is.

Okay, let's talk about books. You've written many of them.

Yeah. Depending on how you count. Nine eleven. Numerals. Well, but but there there are books that I've co-authored and there's a there's a Bible study. Does that count as a book on James? It's. Well, let's start here.

Let's start with your little pink book the church questions and answers book. Can oh, yeah women be pastors. Yes.

Yes, I'm willing to start there.

That little booklet and I'm not trying to be diminutive So like be dismissive it is little it is little it's fantastic. I was trying to I'm trying to imagine somebody more succinctly and Biblically and thoroughly and persuasively and illustratively Putting the matter and I just don't think it's possible.

I didn't read it when I first got it. We have had the little Set up on our book thing. Like you could cut anybody any member with that little rainbow of Yes, and you know grab this booklet grab that booklet and I didn't read it because I thought I know the answer to that this Book could be one page.

It just was a scripture reference. No and But then we had an issue come up where there was a member who was thinking through some of these things and I was throwing them, you know, the biblical manhood and womanhood and the Andreas Kossenberger and all this stuff and It wasn't getting read and then I picked up yours and I just read this real quick.

And I was like took you about 10 minutes.

Yeah, and and I. But what's significant is I said, I don't need all those at least for this conversation. Yeah, this little booklet is more than enough. So tell us how you came to write that book and any fruit that you've seen from it.

And maybe let's talk about the content of it as well.

Yeah, sure. I mean the the book was written because they asked me to write it. I mean, that's that's just the long and short of it.

I don't did they ask you to write it because they thought you would be particularly good.

I really have no idea. Okay, it just came in an email. I don't have a particular Passion about that question. I've never really spoken about it. Like I did a prosperity gospel question because yeah. Yeah, people kind of know that you talk about that Lehman did the politics and like I haven't been involved in the Southern Baptists conversations I haven't tweeted so I don't know but they asked me to write that book and so I did.

I had Just well, maybe they heard a sermon series because I had just done a series on first Timothy and so the Argument of that little book. I made it in the sermon. So maybe somebody heard that and said hey.

That's a pretty good answer to that question. And they maybe that's what it was.

If somebody is wrestling with this question, you've got 60 seconds kind of like the gospel presentation in the elevator. But you've got 60 seconds. What would be your?

Yeah, well the the linchpin the linchpin text is first Timothy 212, right. Like you you don't even have to talk about anything else. It's just first Timothy 212. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man.

Is that a hind eidus or not? Teach. Yes, it is. I was trying to remember what a hind eidus was other than a female chicken. But I finally got it two things that are put together in one thing, right? Yeah, because several different times like four or five half a dozen times in the pastoral epistles.

Teaching and having authority is the job description of an elder. It is how you pastor. Yeah, this is what it is, right? And so it's that verse that that nails the whole thing down the the question is is Paul just being either culture-bound or arbitrary in saying that is that aimed at just one particular Situation or is it more universal.

And the argument that I make in that book is that actually not just in verse 12. But through the whole of chapter 2 of first Timothy Paul is thinking about the story of Genesis and the fall. And he actually is pulling out of that what what I end up calling.

They come out of the curses in Genesis 3 Paradigmatic sins of men and women by which I mean in a fallen world. Men are gonna tend to sin in a particular way. Women are gonna tend to sin in a particular way and both those things are talked about in those curses.

Your relationships are getting messed up in these ways because of the fall and it looks to me very much like Paul is taking those curses and Applying them in chapter 2 of first Timothy first to talk to all Christians.

Without regard to male or female in the first few verses then to talk to men about their paradigmatic Sin struggle and then to talk to women so it's not arbitrary. It's not aimed at women in particular Paul's.

Paul's, you know, he's spraying the machine gun all over the place just nailing Everybody for the fact that they're acting like Genesis said they were gonna act like. And and that's just one of them that falls there.