Mormon Conversation: 3 Essential Differences

Have you had a chance to look at any of these yet? Nope. Obviously, we're out here working, so we're going to want to talk to you guys, but hopefully with love and respect.

You said you haven't had a chance to look at that yet? I know you guys are probably watching the pageant. Explain it in your videos a little, right?

A little bit, a little bit. It's one thing to read something. It's another to actually have a discussion with a face and be like, hey, we don't like these guys.

You can see sometimes, like, oh, they don't like us. But when you talk to them, it's like, oh, no, I think they love us. We just disagree.

So hopefully, what we're trying to communicate is three major points, man. The whole reason we're out here is because we love you guys, and we just think that your church teaches a different God and a different Jesus and a different gospel than is in the

Bible. Did you go to a seminary or a mission or anything like that? I'm going to be going.

You're going on a mission? So have you studied yet, like in seminary, the King Follett's Discourse? The what?

King Follett's Discourse, the funeral sermon Joseph Smith gave. It's a really popular sermon. But you can find these points in the

DNC, too. And it was Joseph Smith said, you've imagined and supposed that God was

God from all eternity. But I will refute that idea. Take back the veil so you can see. You must learn to become gods yourselves, as all gods have done before you.

And when I look at that, I read that, I go, huh. Well, this is funny, because Isaiah tells us there's no gods before, none after.

He doesn't even know of one. He's God from eternity to eternity. And Isaiah's saying that of God, there's none before, none after.

He doesn't even know of any other. And then Joseph Smith, thousands of years later, says, actually, many gods before, many gods after.

And you can become one yourself. And I think this gets to a point of how can what Joseph Smith taught, and what, frankly,

I mean, you know that as God was, man is. Or what is it? As man once was?

You know the one I'm talking about. As God is, man may become. Is that the one

I'm talking about? As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. That's what it is. Snow. Anyways, how can you, how can those be the same message?

Like, how can that be the same thing if we're going to say that the Bible says explicitly, only one

God, none before, none after. And Joseph Smith says, actually, a whole bunch of gods. And you can actually be exalted to godhood yourself one day.

Have you ever thought of that? Totally. I think, so yeah, you probably know, we believe in the

Bible. But I don't think that that's what Joseph taught.

Because I, personally, and the church have been taught that God has been the same as the one true

God for all of us. And there are all sorts of things in God.

He's a separate angel. He's Christ. He's Christ. He's a separate angel. And the Holy Spirit. Just, I want to understand your point.

Are you saying, so the church teaches that, and you're saying that it was different than what Joseph taught? I think what

Joseph is saying is that. What does that mean, to become like a?

Well, just like following in what he did here on earth. We believe that, just like being kind.

We believe that his power is still on the earth today. Sure. That the miracles he performed, we still can perform.

We believe that we can still use that power here on earth. Like an example is in Hebrews, where, what chapter is that?

I think it's chapter 15, where at the end it says, others perform miracles. And so before, they're talking about all the miracles that Christ performed, which are incredible.

And then after, it talks about how other people, like Christ's disciples, and other people that he knew, performed miracles like he did.

So I think that is what Joseph is trying to say, is that if we become close enough to Christ and to our

Heavenly Father, that it is possible for us to bless people's lives like that. And one thing, also,

I mean, personally, I've always been taught that we become like kings and priests and queens.

And that's part of the King Paul's discourse, too. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I believe that.

I don't think I'll become a god like him. I mean, I believe that, because I mean, in the

Doctrine and Covenants, it also says that we can become under his family. We'll always be under him, too.

I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of contradictory statements also in the Bible, too, that contradict themselves.

Could you give me an example? Well, there's, it says,

I don't know. I know there's a common one people like to bring up from like Romans 4 and James 2 about faith and works and stuff.

I don't know if that's a common one I'll hear from Latter -day Saints. But maybe you had another one in mind. I don't know. I also just feel like it's whatever the

Spirit reveals to you. Just that burning in your heart. So like, that's from Moroni 10, right?

The burning, kind of the praying about this, knowing the truth and stuff. So I don't know.

I'll talk about anything you guys want. I hope we can just have a loving discussion. But like Moroni 10 is a real good spot to have this discussion.

So you've read the whole book? I've read all your standard works. I've read a lot of the history and teachings of the church.

And I want to be informed about what you guys believe so that I can actually speak what you believe and not misrepresent you.

I have read all your standard works. And so like in Moroni 10, this is the other spot.

Like I said, we want to talk about who is God, who is Jesus, what is the gospel. My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, of what your church teaches is that Jesus' atonement applies to everybody.

By grace, you're saved. You receive his atonement and a bodily resurrection. Is that fair so far?

So by? That by Jesus' atonement alone that you receive a bodily resurrection. And everybody does.

We believe that we're all saved by grace. Right. So is that what you mean by saved, that you receive a new body? We believe that everyone will receive a new body.

Right. Everyone will also be judged according to their works. So that's where I'm trying to go, is when I look at like Moroni 10, right?

And it says, I can pull it out and quote it, or I can paraphrase it. And I promise it's close. Or you can look it up. But 1032, it's, yea, come unto

Christ and be perfected in him. Put away all ungodliness. Obey God with all your heart, might, strength.

And then is his grace sufficient for you? If first, according to Moroni 10 there, if first, we must first do this thing.

We must first put away all ungodliness. We must love God with all of our heart, soul, mind, and strength, which is the greatest commandment.

And only then is Jesus' grace sufficient for us. Well, in light of what 1

Nephi 3 says, that God hasn't given any commandments under the children of man except to prepare a way that they should fulfill them.

I think Alma teaches a similar principle as well. That if you guys believe that God has given you, every commandment

God has given you, you can actually fulfill, then the question is, how much can you do? According to 2

Nephi 25, 23, according to Moroni 10, 32, it's first do this, do all you can do.

First obey the greatest commandment. And then after you've done that, after you've done all you can do, then his grace is sufficient.

And I'd say, well, if you can do this, then in light of that, how much can you do? Can you obey all of his commandments in light of 1

Nephi 3? Well, I believe you can try your hardest, but we have repentance, there's repentance. If later on in life you feel you haven't done that, you can try your best too.

But we do believe besides all of that, everyone will be resurrected, the wicked, it says that in Alma.

Is that what you mean by salvation though? I think we can talk past each other. I wanna understand what you're saying. When you say salvation. We believe that salvation is like, we believe in three glories, celestial, terrestrial.

Telestial, and then the three levels of the celestial, outer darkness, spirit prison, all that, right? So when you're saying saved by Jesus's grace, is it only by his grace and his grace alone that determines which level of heaven you make it into?

Is it only his grace, or is it your obedience like the articles of faith say to? I believe both. It's both?

It's like, like. Right.

And then just for the sake of your life. Which we also don't agree with.

Right, totally. And so. Like James two, right? Faith without works. We could have that discussion.

Yep. So, yeah, just. No, it's okay.

I was asking, is it, are you saying that it's by your works or by grace that determines your level of exaltation?

Totally both. And we know that Heavenly Father Jesus Christ know our heart and our desires. And they translate it for,

I have a weakness that since God knows that I've tried my best, he is gonna help me.

And I believe, I've heard that from a lot of, I still say Mormon, I probably always will. I don't mean it offensively. I've heard a lot of Mormons say that I've had.

Not usually, sometimes. Some people are, and people are individuals, right? But I've heard a lot of Mormons say the similar thing, and I go, okay, but is that what the

Bible or the Book of Mormon teaches, or is that something different? Because what I'm trying to figure out is when

I look at something, and if you've watched any of our videos, you've seen this question come up. The difference between not only the teaching on who is

God and who is Jesus Christ, but the gospel is Galatians explicitly says, and this is the context here.

Paul's right into this church in Galatia, and he says, who's bewitched you, right? Why are you turning away from the gospel that you know what they were trying to do?

They said, we're saved by grace, we need grace, but they said, we need to do this one thing. Circumcision in that case is what they were talking about,

Judaizers. They were saying, yes, it's grace, grace, grace, grace, grace, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. We're lost without him, but we still have to do this one thing.

And Paul said, very strong language. He says, you're accursed, you're anathema, you're cut off from Christ.

By trying to add one thing for the purpose of, in your phraseology, we don't use this term, but in your phraseology, of trying to add something to earn exaltation or a level of exaltation, according to Galatians, according to Paul, he would say, you're cut off.

And the reason we're out here is because we don't want that for you. And because, actually,

I would argue that the message that is presented by Jesus in the Bible alone is much more glorious and much more beautiful and much more able to actually give you peace.

Every Latter -day Saint, every Mormon I've talked to, now maybe you'll be the exceptions, I've asked, do you know that you'll be exalted to the third level of the celestial kingdom when you die?

The answer I always get is, I'm trying and I hope. I'm trying my best, I hope. I think, you can disagree, but I think that, yeah.

Yeah, we're just having a discussion, that's okay, yeah. Christ is gonna accept us however we are. And so even if we just say,

I accept you, and. I would be exalted, I as a. I wouldn't say you would be exalted to the highest kingdom.

That's what I'm asking. But you would be an. Is the third level, because I try to study your stuff, but I am a

Christian, so I'm reading it through my lens, but I wanna be fair. Is it fair to say that your understanding is that the third level of the celestial kingdom is the closest you can possibly be to God?

That's fair? Yeah. I think as people, whether we, I don't think, you guys seem like nice people, but I wouldn't call you

Christians, even though you're very nice people. And we can disagree over that and whatever, but. Why would you not call us

Christians? Because I think we have a different Christ, and I'd be willing to talk about that, but. Yeah, let's talk about it, but for the celestial kingdom one, that if we want to be as close to God as we can possibly be, that should be our goal for everybody.

And I can know, according to Ephesians 2, I can know that I will be as close to God as I can possibly be, period, because Jesus' work not only resurrects me, but using your language once again, we don't use this term, but it also would exalt me.

All his grace, it brings me as close to the Father as I can ever be, because in light of, even though I don't hold the

Moroni, I still believe we need to obey the greatest commandment, and we can't. Everybody who's honest knows we don't love

God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and God demands that we're perfect. You must be perfect as God, as the

Father is perfect. That's a commandment that all of us are commanded to do, but we all fail in. And so either we have

Jesus' perfect righteousness and his perfect works, covenantally, because I know you guys love covenants, giving that all to us, even the works, or you never have the hope of actually being as close to God as you can be.

Well, it's like, we can be perfected in Christ, but we won't believe that anyone on this earth can be perfect.

I do know you believe that, yeah. I mean, and there's, like, there's, we have, like, a spirit prison, spirit paradise, that's where everyone's right.

Which level of heaven do you think you, do you know you're going to? I hope to be going to heaven. Hope, see, see, it's always the same answer, though.

It's, well, honestly, like, If we call it cut and dry heaven and hell, everybody would both say heaven.

Yeah, that's why I said level, yeah. Well, I know what the telestial, so, like, terrestrial is, like, people who reject.

Sure. Telestial is people who didn't get a chance to learn, but learned it later on. But I believe

I'd be in the celestial kingdom. The third level of it? Yeah. And you know that with assurance. I know that, yeah.

Based on what? I'm curious. Because you are genuinely, I've talked to a lot of Mormons, you're the first one that was ever able to say,

I know that I'm going to be exalted in the third level of the celestial. So I'm curious why you can have that hope that no other

Mormon I've talked to has. Because we keep our covenants, and we know that we keep our covenants. If we keep our covenants, and we stand strong to what we believe in, like,

I know I'll get there. Okay. If God's grace is sufficient, and we continue to repent daily, like, why wouldn't we do that?

So you, I, like, maybe you can, I can't. I know that I do try every day to obey

God. I want to obey God. I genuinely do. But I know that I fail every day. Maybe not with my hands, but in my heart,

I know I fail every day. And I need his grace. Otherwise, what was it?

I believe it's James. I believe it's James. Says that if you keep the whole law, but fail in even one point, you've broken the whole law.

So if, that's to say, if you've even coveted, if you've looked at a person with lust, if you've lied, if you've stolen, if you've ever hated somebody,

Jesus says that's murder. Do you believe that you won't be saved then? No, I believe I will. And here's the distinction,

I think, between what our churches teach is, I would say that if my position before God in any way is going to be determined by my works and my obedience, because I'm a sinner, and because even though I try really hard and I genuinely do,

I fail. And if it's that my level, once again, using your terms, if my level of exaltation, as it were, if how close

I am to God is at all determined by my works, I know myself and my heart well enough to know that I fail on that all the time.

And so, like, anyways, that would be it, is to say that I think that when we're looking at something like 2

Nephi or Moroni 10, that if that's going to talk about where you're going to end up with Heavenly Father for eternity, if it's at all dependent upon your works,

Paul says in Galatians, you're cursed, you're lost. It's all by grace or it's not.

If you try to mix even one work in with it, I would encourage you, rather than believing Eric on the street, after you've watched a pageant, go home, just read

Galatians and see what Paul says and try to reconcile that. He says, if you try to mix works with it, you're lost.

That's the strongest term possible is anathema. And you asked about Jesus. And I know you guys look like you're ready to go watch a pageant, but no, you're fine.

Is that, this will be the last thing I say and I'll listen to whatever you have to say. The other major difference and probably the major difference is that if I was to, for example, look at that streetlight right there and bow down to it and worship it and say, that's

Jesus, I have Jesus. You would rightly go, come on, dude, that's not Jesus. That's not the right Jesus. We need only the true

Jesus can save. And so when I look at Colossians one is a great example. John one, Hebrews one, but Colossians one's a great example.

It says that Jesus created all things in heaven and on earth, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, authorities, all things have been created through him and for him.

That means he created all things. But then my understanding of what your organization teaches is that, well, actually us and Lucifer and other heavenly creatures, rulers and authorities, were actually not created by Jesus.

We're offspring of Elohim. So either Jesus is the creator of those rulers and authorities as Colossians one says, or he's another offspring of Elohim, like all of us.

Well - I've never heard that to be honest with you. Which part? The Colossians one or - We are offspring of Elohim, we would.

Do you believe that you're an offspring of Elohim, of heavenly father? That in the pre -existence that you were a spirit child and then came, that is your church's teaching.

My understanding of what your church - I wouldn't say, go as far to say offspring, but the -

The teacher's not, but the known heavenly father.

Yeah, and so that's where we would come to saying, while I understand that we both might say that a lot of similar things about the

Jesuses that we believe in, the real dividing line is either Jesus is the one who actually created all things that were created and organized all things that are organized, or he's not.

And the one that I see in John one says that he was in the beginning with the word, he was the word, he was God. And then it says that that word actually took on flesh and he created all things that have been created.

And Colossians one says that he created all the things, rulers, authorities, that would include heavenly rulers, heavenly authorities, because it says he makes the very specific distinction there in Colossians.

Paul does everything above, everything below, all the rulers, all the authorities, all the principalities, that would be the heavenly beings,

Jesus made them. That's not the Jesus that is taught by your organization.

And so if you don't have the Jesus that is taught in Colossians, or you don't have the Jesus that's taught in John one, or the

Jesus that in Hebrews one, it says that he upholds the universe by the word of his power. If you don't have that Jesus, then as good of people as you are, and you really are some of the sweetest people in your community that I have ever met, and that's why

I come out here, I don't get paid for this, I just love you guys. But if I'm gonna be straight,

I'm concerned for you guys. And if you do believe what your organization teaches,

I don't think I've misrepresented anything that your organization teaches tonight, at least not intentionally.

But if you believe that, then according to Paul, you're lost in your sins, you don't have a savior, and I don't want that for either of you.

I'm not here to rob you of faith or to steal you away, I wanna give you something freely that was given to me, is that you can know that you will be as close to God as you will ever be in all of eternity, apart from all of your works.

And then Ephesians two says, it's not like we don't do good works, we're commanded to do good works, but the good works that we do according to Ephesians, that you're saved by grace through faith, apart from all of your work, so that no one can boast, and then

Ephesians two 10 says, now go do these good works. You've been saved, you have received grace, and your works didn't contribute to it at all.

Philippians three, you're cut, or Philippians you, if you try to add works to it, you're not saved, now go do good works, because you're saved.

And I think that's a different message that we have here, even though we can use similar terms, that your church teaches that to be exalted to the highest level, articles of faith, it's by obedience to the gospel ordinances and principles, through Christ, through Christ.

I have, I've read them, yeah, yeah, that's what, yeah, that by, through Christ, I know you guys know that, or believe that you need grace, but it's through this grace that the way that this actually happens is by your obedience.

And honestly, like, you seem like very sweet and honest people, how, while you might be doing okay, how are you doing on that?

Are you being perfectly obedient every day? But we're not, and that's the problem. But we, like, literally, and all the time, it's like every time we leave.

So every night before we go to bed, and our prayers, we, we pray, sincerely, sincerely.

Yeah. Well, I just, so there's a talk that I like to listen to, it's called His Grace is Sufficient.

Yeah, that's the one from Brad Wilcox, from, yeah, I've listened to it several times, and I actually would make the same argument,

I listen to it, he's talking on 2 Nephi 25 -23, His Grace is Sufficient. If you go back and listen to it, he's talking about that same distinction that we're talking about.

When he's saying sufficient, correct me if I'm wrong, or go back and listen, I think what Brad Wilcox is saying, it's sufficient in the sense that everybody receives a new body.

But is His grace, and His grace alone sufficient, apart from any of your works, to actually exalt you to the third level of the celestial kingdom?

Or is that according to your own obedience and His grace? And I would say if His grace isn't sufficient to actually bring you as close to God as you can ever be, how could you not want to be as close, like we can't do that.

And that's why I just go like, I don't know how Mormons can have peace with God, knowing that unless you do all these works, like I said, you're the first Mormon I've ever heard that actually said, you know it.

Every other Mormon I've ever talked to said, I hope to be, I don't know, but I think I will be. I've prayed.

Sure. Personally, I feel like that is enough as a witness to me, just that He answered my prayer.

Sure. And I feel, I've prayed, and if I know that He answered that one prayer,

I know that if I asked Him, if what I'm doing is wrong, He would've told me. Do you know where you're going on a mission yet? Have you got your call? Kentucky.

Kentucky. Oh, dude, you're gonna be in the Bible belt, man. So I've got a lot of studying to do. You've got a lot of studying to do.

I know I don't know a lot, but I'm learning every day. Sure. Just one thing I do know is that He's answered my prayer.

You're in the heart of it, man, in the Bible belt in Kentucky, though, dude. You're gonna be getting a lot of big Shelby Potluck Baptist fellows out there, man.

I'm telling you, that's my people. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll leave you with this, and I'll let you guys go, is that I would encourage you to look at Galatians 3, and ask yourself, are you adding something to what

Paul is talking about? And then, moreover, you mentioned you prayed, and you got answers. We should pray.

We're commanded to pray. It's good, and it's a blessing to God's people. But that's not the way God tells us to determine truth, is by prayer.

I know the beginning of Moroni 10 talks about praying to know the truth. But Deuteronomy 13 and Deuteronomy 18, already thousands of years before Joseph Smith told us how to determine if a prophet is actually from God or not.

Deuteronomy 13 says, if a prophet comes and leads you after other gods, gods that you have not known, he's not from God, right?

And Joseph Smith said, you've imagined and supposed God was God from all eternity, but I would refute that idea.

Isaiah disagrees with Joseph there. And then it also says in Deuteronomy 18 that if a prophet or a worker, whatever, comes and performs miracles, even if he performs miracles, but one of his prophecies doesn't come true, don't fear him, he's not a true prophet.

I could show you many from your works and from your Latter -day

Saints page, false prophecies that Joseph Smith gave. He said that Jesus would return in 56 years.

He said that he'd hold the priesthood office until Jesus came back. He was speaking about one of his friends that was gonna go start a business or go on a mission the next spring.

His friend, that's in the Doctrine and Covenants, his friend was killed before that happened. I do wanna say that maybe not all members of the church would agree with, but I totally think that sometimes prophets are not speaking as prophets.

I agree with that. And even though I do believe they are called God and I sustain our prophet now,

I would not say that. No, I think Paul was an apostle. Joseph tells me to do something and I'm like.

Paul was an apostle, right, but he probably wrote his grocery list wrong sometimes. But it was only those words that were inspired from God that would be.

I won't be 100 % honest. When our prophet said you should go get the vaccine, I'm like. I hear a lot from half of the people out here.

This is a. I've got my pure blood. CYA, but. Yeah, but that's it.

I do love you guys. I know you gotta go, but that would be Eric. Eric. Adam. Adam, nice to meet you.

What's your name? I'm Mikayla. Mikayla, yeah. So just, I mean, I would encourage you to forget once again what Eric said.

And just take what I'm saying to the word like Paul says. Check Galatians three and see if you can square that.

Or check Galatians and see if you can square that with what you believe on exaltation. Will you be back here in three years?

Lord willing. Because. Lord willing. I'm gonna throw out my mission. I'm gonna study a bunch of stuff. Study, dude.

No, yeah, please do. I'll talk to you. If I won't be, then someone else will be. Yep, but be safe and have a good mission.

Thank you. I feel like a lot of members really. Sure. And like really.

We didn't talk the Bible. Well, I always, to be fair, you guys have four times as many scriptures as we do. So you got a lot.

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, probably a great prize. Yeah. But I would encourage you. Yeah, check those out. Check Galatians and just take that on your view of exaltation and see if those square.