Pastors' Panel Podcast- Limited Atonement

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00:14

Hello, good evening. Welcome to the pastor's panel podcast. We are so thankful that you are watching with us and joining us

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If you have any questions, we would love to interact with you and fellowship with you

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If you have any comments critiques, whatever you would like to tell us Tell us whatever you like to tell us, but at least tell us hello

00:36

We'd love to hear from you and hear your questions and try to answer your questions. That would be great as well

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We'd love to pray for you All you have to do is I've always said all you have to do is type me and somebody will see that notification

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And we'll pray for you. Love to be able to do that I'm thankful for the pastor's panel and the discussions that we get to have

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I'm here with Dan and Claude and maybe we have some others join us later on but I'm thankful for them, too

01:04

We're going to continue our discussion on the doctrines of grace tonight We've looked at the sovereignty of God, which is a good starting place.

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We have looked at Total depravity and we we have looked at Unlimited Unconditional election

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I'm gonna get tongue -twisted tonight. Total depravity, unconditional election, and then tonight we're going to look at Limited atonement

01:37

We're gonna look at limited atonement, its definition

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And then what the what the other side says As far as you have limited atonement then unlimited slash universal atonement

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And you can also call limited atonement definite atonement. So we're gonna we'll let these guys

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Define what those things mean first, but I like Dan knows

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I like to like to throw a curveball Because I want to hear I want them to speak to me because again like like I say often

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I'm thinking about my audience. I want to reach our community and who might be listening and This this doctrines of grace subject

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Sometimes is a difficult one. I'm gonna get I'm gonna give you an example guys of a

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Situation that I was in I'm not going to give you the specific place or many details about the situation

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But I'd like to hear From you guys is in a pastoral response if you would so the situation that I was in so I was in front

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I was by myself in front of a Roomful of people and I was supposed to be there to answer questions.

03:02

And so the the issue of the doctrines of grace And some trigger words were mentioned election predestination they were mentioned and so after that You could cut the tension in the room with a knife

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It was so, you know felt so strongly it was so visible.

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And so I'm thinking about two people. I think about people who Because in my community,

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I'm not sure how it was How it is in your community or how it was in your community growing up I'm coming from a more rural community and I feel like there's a negative connotation to the doctrines of grace

03:48

Also known as as Calvinism or You know, they're using those trigger words again election or predestination there's a name connotation because I think for two reasons one because how

04:05

People are people are taught that way to have a negative connotation towards doctrines of grace or We base our theology on feelings and And we just don't we don't feel that It doesn't make logical sense to us in our minds.

04:24

So the response is, you know attack the person that's

04:30

Pro -doctrines of grace or or Calvinist or whatever and and so pastorally

04:36

Starting off. I'd like you guys to speak to that person number one who is maybe a young pastor or Calvinist a young Calvinist that is in that situation a situation.

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Maybe there's a church. They're in a church. That's They may be the only Person that believes in the doctrines of grace in a community where they're one of the very few that would believe in the doctrines of grace and then if you would if you're able to speak to that to that person that feels that tension when somebody brings up the word election or predestination they they want to argue and they want to bring that tension to the forefront and it caused the vision between their brothers because they just They find that doctrine so Reprehensible they they've got to speak out against it and I'm sure you guys have maybe noticed that tension before with people.

05:36

So What do you guys say? What would you say to a young pastor or a lone?

05:45

Calvinist out there and then how would you talk down not talk down as in Condescending but you know talk down the tension in a person who feels that way.

05:59

So I'll turn it over to you guys Whoever wants to start first I'll jump in after you brother.

06:11

I've been in that situation Few times You know growing up in churches in the south

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Yeah, that like the person who's the only Calvinist in the bunch had that happen a few times

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The thing The thing you want to remember is just because somebody doesn't understand the way that they get saved doesn't mean that they're not saved

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So you want to be careful to Not draw the circle around yourself as to who's in the kingdom who's out of it

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So tightly who are you the only one standing there and even then you're on one leg Of a church specifically in in Gastonia, North Carolina wonderful Bible preaching church

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They go out Trying to to knock on doors and and see people saved like they're they're doing the

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Lord's work They They hear

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Calvinism or predestination or election or anything like that But so it's a wonderful group of down there in that church

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We don't ever want to break fellowship With people over something like that, right?

07:39

Well, we don't compromise on our beliefs We also don't break fellowship with those who still hope with those core doctrines of the faith

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Which can get a little tricky because sometimes I like to Accidentally skirt over towards the heretical side, but we'll kind of bring them back and help each other out

08:02

So the other one I've been somebody who made Brittle up at the idea of election or predestination.

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I probably just say the same thing But hey, man, we're You love the

08:14

Lord the same Lord that's here in the scriptures The one that died on the cross laid in the grave for three days arose

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Yet John 3 16 all that good stuff You know, we can fight about the rest

08:33

Let's not know beat each other up too badly Yeah, I mean that's the thing

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I don't necessarily think it's it's it's bad to fight over Doctrine, well, it's not nasty and you're still discussing the issue and not attacking the other person

08:54

That's good. I mean you need to be challenged in your faith and I'm thinking of one guy right now.

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I don't know if he'll even he may even watch tonight But we need to go round for round on the whole idea of Calvinism or Arminianism or somewhere in between or whatever and Yes, we're still good friends to this day

09:18

Yeah, I probably give about the same that the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing you've heard that before That's kind of where you want to land on that Claude I Just go

09:45

So I would I would begin by because I've been there too and it's number one or the

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As you stated for the for the young pastor that's out there and and he's you know

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If he's if he feels quote -unquote feels like he's the lone

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Calvinist, right? he's probably still somewhat caged stage and overzealous

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So my advice to him would be like like Dan said Calm down.

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First of all, I'm speaking to the to the Calvinist. I'm saying calm down realize You ain't got everything all figured out

10:26

We've all got room to grow that's just that's just a plain country Pastoral advice, right?

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And then to the To the to the one who bristles to the idea of Calvinism.

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I would just do what I've always done is Start with questions for them

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So, you know they because the fact of the matter is for someone who

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Holds to our the Armenian perspective and we're not using that is a negative connotation

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It's it's literally distinctions that we're making so, you know reformed in Armenian To the to the

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Armenian perspective. I would say the burden of proof is on them. So just allow them to Look at the scriptures ask them questions.

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So what do you know about? Calvinism Right. What what do you know about it?

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Not we're not in and I can even probe deeper and say not asking. What have you heard?

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I'm asking. What do you know? Have you put the time in to research to find out?

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What reformed theology is and in as much as possible always draw the names out of it

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Because Calvin wouldn't want Calvin Luther any of them guys. They would be appalled if we were, you know

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Dedicating a faith to them when their whole lives pointed not to themselves, but to the

12:03

Christ of the scriptures Yeah Those are good questions So I think that was helpful.

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I appreciate it guys and and I'm gonna give you next week's question even if even if Claude is out of jail and he's

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Facebook jail, I'm gonna say that He's able to host

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Here's the question for next week just just to give you a heads up because we we need to get into our topic But it's along the same lines of that question.

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So And I'll go ahead and tell you I'm one of these persons should a potential pastor

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Be up front about being reformed Prior to hard or should he keep it hush and just teach so that's for next week

12:56

Okay, okay. All right. Thanks for giving us such a good Questions known for heads up for that.

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Yeah, we right now. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's Bubble gum

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That you keep putting under the desk and pulling out I Know you guys would be good answer that question next week.

13:23

So tonight we're gonna dive right into limited atonement and We give some definitions.

13:29

I Want us to take turns going through these different texts? And just I think we can probably go through these texts quickly because well,

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I guess what we're basically going to do is Show How these verses speak to limited atonement or help define or have where we find limited atonement in Scripture?

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And so that's basically what we're doing going through this going through these texts. I'm gonna keep up On the time because I do want to get to these later passages that those who are on the other side would use and say

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You can't believe in limited atonement because of this verse And I do want to want us to take a look at some of those verses so, um

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Whoever feels like they're prepared. I don't know. Um, which one of you? Is is ready to answer or or define what these things are but uh limited atonement.

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What is a good definition of limited? limited atonement is in in simple just layman's plain terms it

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First of all, it's not What it sounds like? Right. We're not limiting the sacrifice of christ

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That's that's key right there. Yeah, the the limitation comes on the efficaciousness

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Uh, or or no, maybe i'm wrong there too, uh, it's not that christ's death is not effective but it is

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Specifically effective for those whom he has elected and called into salvation Do you have another definition dan

15:17

No, okay And I don't ask that because you have it's a totally different definition because I know you agree with what claude said i'm assuming

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But I think when we go to put things in our own words, it may help clear things up for us, you know

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And someone who's listening you may say it differently and how they understand things. So yeah, it's not that we disagree

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But oh, no, no, don't disagree. No, I almost think it'd be helpful if we uh

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Because you can state it negatively which would be limited atonement or you can state it positively Uh, which

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I guess you would call um, particular redemption. Yeah, or uh, or definite atonement

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What that means is that is that when god entered into um the the act of salvation when he

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Sent jesus to the cross when jesus laid down his wife and went to the grave and came out victorious

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What was the purpose behind? The act of god in salvation, you know, what did he have in mind when he went to the cross?

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Who was he trying to save? in in that respect you stated Positively, not that it was limited but that he

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Had a specific people in mind Those who would be saved those who had chosen him before the foundation of the world

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He chose them And went to the cross for the express purpose of saving those people

16:45

Amen. So it's not that that the blood of christ couldn't save everyone on the planet.

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That's right It was only meant to save uh Those who were being saved.

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I guess that would be the positive way of saving it. Yeah And using those different terms of the definition uh, it's helpful because you can you can see the different aspects of Limited atonement in those different words particular, you know particular people.

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Um definite, you know There's a Definite it has a definite effect, right?

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And that would be in contrast to indefinite where instead of god dying for a specific people

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Uh, jesus would have died for a nameless faceless blob that he wasn't really too sure who was going to populate that field

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Look at it like a spreadsheet Been a lot of spreadsheets lately. I don't know why that came to mind

17:48

All right, so flipping it over unlimited or universal atonement, so this will this will be the other argument

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Limited atonement versus unlimited or universal atonement So unlimited atonement is just like what uh, dan was explaining there the the the opposite view of limited atonement that christ made um salvation possible for everyone

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But not certain that's the that's the issue with unlimited atonement because Whether it's intentional or not.

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It's stating That Salvation in some way was done with An uncertainty of the effect of the saving work of christ when in reality

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He died for an elect people. He didn't he didn't die. He didn't die on the cross to make

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Salvation possible. He died on the cross to make salvation certain And and before you jump in, uh dan

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Claude you use the word, um, so sufficient and I I think that's where some of the rub comes in with um, the other side or the the two different sides is because you have the armenian the armenian side um that that says it's his

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Sacrifice is sufficient. It's enough it can it can cover the whole of All the earth all of all the people that were ever born it's it's sufficient to do that and then

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The other side the the doctrines of grace reform side is going to say well, it's it's sufficient for those who it was designed for And so that's that's where the rub that's where the friction comes in I think for a lot of people

19:50

I think another descriptive term that might be uh Good is purposeful

19:55

Uh atonement You know like dan dan used definite atonement particular redemption, but it's it's purposeful atonement

20:05

Right. Do you want to add anything dan? Um, i'm trying to think of something but we kind of covered it pretty good.

20:15

Yeah. Yeah Oh, I guess I guess I don't know my brain works slow at night time.

20:22

Don't don't worry about me Um when you think about unlimited atonement, um, it's kind of a misnomer too

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Because in some way the atonement is still limited because not everyone is saved um, even in the unlimited atonement theme, so They would say that salvation was purchased for all but it's not given to all so For whatever reason and you go to different people and find different Reasons why it's not given to this one or that one

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But it's limited to Usually whoever believe or whoever confess with their mouth and believe in their heart

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Some people say baptism um, but even then it's it's limited in its scope, uh in some way form or fashion

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So really the the limited unlimited distinction is only helpful if you're putting it in the proper categories

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What aspect of it is limited what aspect of it is unlimited If you don't put it in those correct categories

21:27

People are going to talk past each other. I think that's probably why a lot of people have trouble Understanding the calvinist point of view all of you are many in front of you

21:35

Yeah, or anywhere in between, you know lutherans, you know, whoever they talk past each other because one's thinking of of sufficiency while one's thinking of efficacy and vice versa and It ends up being a mess because people aren't defining their terms properly

21:52

Right, exactly. Hey, ma 'am and um I've got different i'm going different places in my mind and I I forget where We're tracking we're tracking with you you just go and we'll follow

22:16

Wait your mind works slow at night mine works slow all day long So So limited atonement and and what you said was was really important because You know in that sense everybody believes in limited atonement because some people

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Go to hell And some people go to heaven. So so everybody believes in in some

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Type of however you want to describe it some type of limited atonement Unless you're a university Unless you're a university

22:48

Yes, yeah, so, you know, you got to decide that in your mind, you know Am I a universalist or to believe in limited atonement now?

22:55

That's where these It's good that we've been studying these doctrines together Because they begin they begin to bleed

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Um over into one another because all right now, you know, we've settled this I'm, not a universalist.

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Okay I may be you know in the armenian camp, but i'm not a universalist So, you know i've got to lean over here and submit to a little bit of the limited atonement so But then you start getting into like dan was saying

23:25

Well, how how does it get applied? And now we're start bleeding back into Unconditional election and total depravity

23:36

I I have an inability to yeah To get to get it receive it apply it to myself.

23:43

It's got to be a gift Yeah, it's got to come from god So it's good that and you know

23:50

Maybe well not there's no maybe two of the look the lord is working and um, you know

23:56

Claude you and what you're doing on your podcast Um, you're talking about the doctrines of grace.

24:01

There's another podcast out there that we're you know, we're familiar with it's going to be studying the doctrines of grace, so It's good that we continue to bring these things up and talk about it for the sake of you know, our community

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And who needs to know? Um And we and we keep the doctrines of that study of the doctrines together so we can better understand

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Does that make sense? Is that good? Yeah, keeping it together systematized so that you can walk through it and and big picture

24:35

If we can just get ourselves and others just to slow down to take the time

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That's where that's where it's got to come to that and then we're not necessarily trying to listen to each other's opinion

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But we're gonna but we're gonna say we're gonna go to the book. We're gonna go to the scripture we're gonna see what the word says in context now again that it it inevitably leads to a a

25:04

Drug out and I mean that in a good way I don't know if that's right english though Uh You know a prolonged drug drug prolonged right so a prolonged study of the scriptures which sadly very few have um the patience for in our day and time and Over the years that's been demonstrated too, but it is

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It is the necessary course that we must take that prolonged study of the scripture

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So that we get it in context so Real quickly before we get into the verses.

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The next question is, uh, well, we've looked at the differences, but Do you have maybe any thoughts on why why it matters?

25:53

um Why we need to take a look at the different camps and and why it matters that we understand the differences between limited atonement and unlimited atonement

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Like consequences to believing one over the other Do you need any thoughts on that?

26:16

Yeah, um one one of them the just basic surface level, um is that as christians we should value truth

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So no matter what the truth is You seek it from the scriptures and follow it if We're wrong

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Man up say you're wrong Um If if we're right

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Stand your ground Throw darts at your enemy Pinch your brother till he keeps on Another one is uh, this is a little bit deeper.

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Um, it has it affects the way that you Pray Worship and do evangelism

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If you look at especially us here in new york, we are reaping the

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Consequences of having charles finney come through this area um

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Oh, man, it was about 150 100 Actually almost 200 years ago um, he came through, um with a a semi -pelagian almost pelagian idea of Of how the atonement worked completely um in the unlimited atonement um

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Can't but he pushed really hard for emotional responses a mental ascent um

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That you could lose your salvation huge methodist presence up here as well with the the armenian, uh doctrine

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And what is that we have happening is over the course of the last 200 years um that that doctrine um has

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It's it's warped the way that that worship is done Uh, so that um instead of coming with with the holy reverence

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For worship realizing that it is god's called people to himself in order to Worship him on a lord's day really what you end up having is a is a a endless cycle of Evangelistic outreaches that masquerade as your lord's day service

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So you end up with with almost like a parachurch Evangelistic outreach instead of being the church um and It's not entirely

28:51

A bad thing you should be preaching the gospel every week at some point. Uh, it's built into uh, the reformed presbyterian liturgy um, you know, we have a a

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Reading of the law confection of our sin. We hear the gospel preached to us by our minister each and every week um, you know that we who believe in christ and Thought forgiveness of sins we have found forgiveness of sins in christ beautiful message um but That's also allowed for churches to not go past a very shallow level because if all you're doing is

29:29

Preaching the very basics of the faith each week you end up with people who are

29:35

Who are what paul put it in. I believe it's hebrews I believe paul wrote hebrews.

29:41

Shoot. Yeah It'd be all right He said that y 'all should be able to eat solid foods now

29:51

Yeah, but instead you're still on milk and then he goes on to say this is crazy to me

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He talked about the laying on of hands repentance of sins washings and all sorts of stuff that you ask the average church person today um

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They they don't they couldn't give you a solid baseline on on most of those doctrines.

30:11

That's what he's calling It's like oh man, we need to step it up but you can't do that if So it affects things now,

30:21

I don't want to paint with a broad brush I mean, I kind of just did but but I don't want to paint like everybody who holds to that through the armenian doctrine or some sort of um

30:33

What they call themselves compatible or uh traditionalist southern baptist doctrine or whatever you want to call it um

30:42

I don't want to paint everybody with a broad brush, but that Overarchingly has been what i've seen at least in the northeast.

30:50

Uh, it's been Not good at the same time. Um We have seen through the the calvinist churches in the area.

31:00

A lot of them went cold and dead So, yep, that's the that's the challenge for reform folks because if you believe well god's going to do it then uh

31:11

The the temptation is to sit back on the world and just wait for it to happen Yeah, and god told us to go out there and disciple the nations baptize them teach them all that you've commanded

31:23

Um, and remember that he's with us until the end Yeah, that's why I found a group of presbyterians that are planting churches and you know, we're rolling with it.

31:30

We just know Yes, oh there's my my musings on the

31:40

Situation I guess Well is is basically what you described there at the end. Some people call hyper calvinism

31:48

Somewhat. Yeah, okay. It could be It could be hyper calvinism, it could be laziness

31:56

Some people believe that you shouldn't evangelize unless you know that a person's either showing signs of faith or Something like that.

32:04

They go really far with it Some people are just lazy or scared.

32:10

Yeah, they don't want to do the work. They know they should They know that god uses people to call people to himself, but they just I don't really feel like doing that today

32:20

Might lose my job or somebody might make fun of me Yeah, yeah well

32:25

The reason why I want to bring that up is because when when you know certain people begin to look at or describe calvinist

32:33

All calvinists get lumped into that the hyper calvinist. Yeah And so we want to you know, kind of shake loose that caricature and say no, we you know, we're not like that We you know, we believe the bible says that we are to evangelize

32:48

We are to go out to save that which is lost preach the gospel. And so and and all those other things

32:54

That you know, the bible says that we should be doing and not sit on our laurels and let god God's gonna take care of it now

33:02

So yeah, I think that's an important discussion to have um So let's let's jump into these verses.

33:08

Um And the reason we want to look at these verses is because like we were like we were discussing earlier um you

33:18

You look at you look at limanatoma and you you get into these, um, what what is she's

33:31

Yeah, she's talking to me she's talking to you hey I've got a joke for and I hesitate

33:42

I hesitate doing it because i've learned to to bite my tongue and and just You know

33:49

Let my yes be yes my no me no because I don't want to offend anybody But I only say this in jest.

33:55

I don't I don't want to offend anybody So this is this is just a joke, but i've i've got my arminian soteriology

34:03

Coffee mug with me tonight Oh man, oh my

34:14

Have you have you seen the uh, the coffee cups I think reform sage puts them out uh

34:22

It says arminian tears on it Have you seen that dan yeah, i've seen that Yeah, i've seen a couple couple spinoffs on that i've seen calvinist tears and lutheran tears

34:34

I wasn't that papist tears. I thought that was pretty funny Well, I I hope nobody was offended by that.

34:42

I just did it in jest. So, um Uh what what we want to do and our goal, especially

34:50

I know it's our heart And we hope that it's your heart as well. We want to see we want to see what god says

34:56

We want to see what he says in his word, uh through the scriptures um, and so Even for us and I think

35:04

Um, it was dan or claude that that would kind of was kind of taking us in that direction I think it was dan, uh taking us in that direction earlier when you were saying, you know

35:14

If we're if we're wrong, they man up So Either side whatever side we're on If we're wrong man up, how do we know that we're wrong?

35:27

Test everything according to the word brother. Yeah So that's where we want to go. That's why we go there, you know

35:35

Who cares what we have to say and we can babble on and talk about whatever But eventually we we want to get to the word and hear what god has to say so, um

35:44

If you guys are ready, I want I want to do matthew 1 21 And we're just going to point to the limit of atonement in these passages

35:52

Um claude if you want to do matthew 20 28 and um dan matthew 26 28

36:01

And we'll go from there and keep a check on our time Um, but while y 'all were looking at those verses and you guys don't have to limit it to that No pun intended

36:10

If you want to talk about If you want to talk about some of the context of the passage

36:17

You guys have freedom to do that. So matthew 1 chapter 1 verse 21

36:23

It's god's word says and she will bear his son we're familiar with this passage She will bear his son and you shall call his name jesus for or so For it is he

36:39

Who will save His people from their seat and How do we get limited atonement out of this it's it's his people that he will say

36:55

Um, so there's there there's that definite definite Part of the atonement.

37:02

There's that peculiar part of the atonement Um, there's that limited part of the atonement whom will he say it will be?

37:11

His his people and i'm sure we could probably say that through most of these verses but um,

37:18

I wanted us to Make sure that we looked at god's word tonight And get it straight straight from him all right, let me

37:28

Let me pull up the next one matthew um 20 20.

37:34

Yep First I have to go back to my notes 28.

37:40

Yeah, i'll read 26 through 28 just to get a little bit of context. Okay The scripture says it shall not jesus is speaking to his disciples there.

37:53

Um And he says it shall not be so among you But whoever would be great among you must be your servant and whoever would be first among you must be your slave

38:03

Even as the son of man came not to be served Or not to be served but to serve and to give his life a ransom for many so the the scope kind of broadens there

38:17

As we move, uh, just kind of a teaser for your for your end Uh your closing section here, um, you know the scope broadens

38:27

But it's still very specific Sorry for the dead air.

38:40

We're going to matthew 20 26 28 26 28 cool

38:55

All right. I was just checking on something before I said it. I didn't want to tell anybody anything wrong Uh, yeah, uh, this is the the institution of the lord's supper that's found in matthew um, it's beautiful, uh passage, uh, jesus is he's gathering his people together they're eating the uh,

39:13

The the passover meal, um, but the whole dinner Uh, you know, they're singing psalms or they're looking at it and uh, he

39:22

Uh takes the bread and breaks it this is my body which is broken for you takes the cups and this is uh, the the

39:32

Uh blood poured out for for the sins of For many for the forgiveness of sins

39:39

He's he's there talking about his coming crucifixion It is the act of atonement the the sacrifice being made saying here this meal is representative of Not just representative of but it is representative of his crucifixion

39:56

So what he's saying is This is what is given my body My life for yours

40:05

You deserve to die. I'm going to take that On myself that way you don't have to and then it says, um

40:14

Well, this is my blood of the covenant The covenant that promised salvation that he's going to bring salvation to his people

40:23

He just poured out for many And that word many It's not the word all

40:30

It's the word many Which means that there's going to be a large number of people.

40:35

He's pouring it out for And not everyone is pouring it out for For the forgiveness of their sins

40:43

Um My wife was reading some

40:50

Anti -calvinist anti -limited atonement, uh literature to me before I came on and um

41:00

It is incredible the lengths that people go To to get around the word many here um the one guy actually said that many in this situation

41:11

Means all because it's more than just a few Like what?

41:16

That's not what that word means at all So, um It is yeah, it was it was bad

41:25

She put her phone down but uh Was it light and flowers? No, it was somebody

41:33

Uh, i'm sure he would probably say the same thing but Uh, yeah, so that's where we get the idea that jesus when he went to the cross

41:45

When explaining his sacrifice Said this sacrifice which is the salvation promised in the covenant is going to come to the many for forgiveness of sin

41:59

And I believe that many is the same Uh people who are chosen in him before the foundations of the world

42:04

And ephesians 1 uh 4 and then It's later on 12 13 14 the whole first chapter second chapter 2 of ephesians

42:15

Um, you look at it all throughout the new testament of the idea of Yeah, the guy was thomas taylor.

42:22

Uh, we were reading I never heard of him You're okay Ha ha ha

42:32

Yeah, so that that is where uh, matthew 26 28 shows us the idea of limited atonement

42:39

Now one thing I would like to to point out Um people like to look at these doctrines that are that are systematic in nature.

42:46

They're systematic theology, right? And so they like to go to the bible and say well, where is the systematic theology?

42:53

that proves this This doctrine and the thing is The bible isn't written in systematic theology

43:01

The bible written in truth like this is a part of a narrative right What we do when we come to to these doctrines.

43:08

We have to actually pull them out of scripture And see what they what what they look like together

43:17

Yeah, so you're not going to find one verse that lays out

43:24

Explicitly limited atonement But if limited atonement is true You will see it sprinkled all throughout scripture

43:34

And I was just about to say something about john 10 which he has punched in up there Yeah, he see it here at matthew.

43:40

You see it in john 10 Uh john 17 you see him in his high priestly prayer again in ephesians um

43:49

All throughout the new testament you see it sprinkled Um finisher of our faith

43:56

Um, yeah, you see it sprinkled all throughout and so if you see that idea Running, you know on the surface and just below the surface of many many texts across the whole

44:06

Of the new and old testament you can rest assured that that doctrine is there And that's how we systematize it to make it look like tulip because tulip is a you know neatly packaged little thing

44:20

Whereas the scriptures are not as neatly packaged I think that that's important for every side because people will try to pigeonhole people and say well, give me one verse

44:30

Well, you can't just find it in one verse. You gotta put it together and see if the dots actually connect

44:36

That's the danger of proof texting So let me give you guys your your next uh two texts, uh club acts 1348

44:48

Okay, and dan acts Um I'm gonna skip that one.

44:57

Um Let's do um hebrews 217

45:06

So I want to go to john 10 that would be mine And um, I really appreciate what what dan was doing there.

45:12

Um, not only was he explaining the text Um, and of course claude helps us out and does this as well

45:18

But but dan what he was just doing was he was he was giving us. Um How to study the text talking about how to study the text, um

45:27

So that we don't take these things out of context as as claude was talking about, you know proof texting and um

45:36

Misunderstanding because we proof text misunderstanding because we don't read it in its context Dan was not only explaining the text but teaching us how to explain the text and and that's something that I wanted to do with this passage to to Go back to the my first text that I looked at a few seconds ago was um the matthew verse where Matthew tells us that um

46:02

He was talking to mary and you will bury his son and and he will You will call his name jesus and Let me put it.

46:12

Let me put it correctly And she will bury son and you shall call his name jesus for it is he who will save his people

46:21

From their sins, okay So if you're on the other side of things and you look at this verse you could say, all right

46:26

Yeah, that's true. I believe that he he will save his people from their sins, but that doesn't that verse is not telling me like dan was saying you you know, you can't just take one one verse you gotta

46:38

Look at look at it systematically and and look over the whole whole text the whole bible

46:45

This verse doesn't tell me or or doesn't keep me from believing that that god's God's work.

46:51

Jesus's work is is sufficient for um, all of mankind um

46:58

You know, there's some people that just choose not to apply it, but it's sufficient for everyone This verse doesn't keep me from believing that that's why you have to look at all the verses that speak on the minnetonah and um, and there's another

47:12

Tool for understanding the text or when you're studying god's word. It is called

47:19

Understanding a bible verse that is unclear in light of the more clear verses

47:25

So if you're thinking about that You know when you're reading matthew chapter 1 verse 21

47:31

Well, yes, I believe that that he will save his people from his hands, but that doesn't keep me from believing that um

47:40

Jesus jesus's work um his his sacrifice Is sufficient for all it doesn't keep me from believing that Go to a verse like john 10 verse 11 where dan was referring to john 10 verse 11

47:55

It says and i'll let me press enter There we go john 10 11

48:01

I am the good shepherd the good shepherd lays down his life for who Does it say the whole world no, it says he lays down his life

48:15

For the sheep And then verse 15, I mean it qualifies it there john qualifies it for us um, he he says it's it's not for the whole world, but but for a specific people is she and in verse 15

48:31

Um, even as the father knows me. I know the father and I lay down my life for the sheep and so that's to me and you guys can correct me if i'm wrong to me that is um,

48:46

Understanding an unclear verse In light of the clear to help understand a certain

48:53

Part of that doctrine. Yeah, okay So, let's see, what was that next verse x x 13 48, let me punch it in here

49:13

So x 13 48 and when the gentiles heard this they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the lord

49:19

And as many as were appointed to eternal life Believed It's a

49:27

It is a passive act. Let me say that there it's not Something that came of them in and of themselves, but whom the lord appointed that Oh, yeah

49:44

That was that was great I'm looking at dan and i'm wondering if he's if he's laughing he's giggling.

49:52

He's been giggling a lot in the last few minutes Hey My wife's down there acting a fool in the comment section

50:02

Oh, I can click on that can I forgot about that I didn't I figured

50:07

I thought you were just getting a text message. No, no, no, she's putting it on facebook for the whole

50:16

That's fantastic So whatever all right Hebrews 2 17

50:29

All right, so i'm going to preface this whole thing by saying that when I was in Bible college,

50:35

I had a professor who said never read a bible verse What he meant by that is you don't ever just read one bible verse

50:42

You always got to put it in context to make sure what it's saying So back on up to verse 10 and let's get started on this thing

50:48

Because it actually the whole passage is just Wonderful right together. Amen.

50:54

Um, since it was fitting That he for whom and by whom all things exist talking about jesus and bringing many sons to glory

51:04

To make uh, the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering that word perfect there means complete in other words, he wasn't perfect or imperfect in the sense of um, he

51:18

Messed up or sinned or something. They're saying that he was, you know imperfect in the sense of Uh, like a basketball team who has to play 30 games in a season and win all 30 games have a perfect season

51:31

But they've only played 29 and they still gotta play that 30th game and they're gonna win and be perfect all along jesus was perfect all along and his

51:42

Perfection was completed. Um That's what it's talking about through his suffering upon the cross his his role as um

51:53

The son of god the savior of the world was completed through his suffering on the cross for he who sanctifies

52:01

And those who are sanctified all have one source That is why he's not ashamed to call them brothers

52:08

So he he and then it goes on to say how he he came down in the midst of us. Um, Go down to verse 14

52:16

Uh since therefore the children share in flesh and blood And he himself likewise partook of the same thing so he became flesh he took on humanity um

52:31

That through death in other words, he became human so that he could die in order that He could just he would destroy the one who has power of the death.

52:41

That is the devil And deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery

52:49

He's going to deliver those who were enslaved to death and misery because of their their sin

52:57

Um, and it says here for surely is not the angels That he helps but he helps the offspring of abraham

53:05

Now, what does that mean the offspring of abraham or defendant of abraham? So that is defined

53:12

Uh clearly in two places in the book of romans Chapter four chapter nine

53:19

It says that those who are Who are the offspring of abraham are not the ones who are physical descendants?

53:26

But those who have a like faith of abraham. Those are the ones who believe in Christ being the christ being the one who takes away their sin

53:35

And here's what he says about that the birth that robber gave to me therefore

53:43

He had to be had to be made like his brothers and ever expect So that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest

53:52

In the service of god. So the high priest was the one who entered into the sanctuary Once a year with the uh, the the atonement sacrifice on the day of atonement and he put the sprinkled the blood on the all on the

54:07

The Help me out with that word mercy mercy seat. Yeah the mercy seat right there in the holy of holies

54:15

And they were clean for a whole year Yeah um

54:22

To make propitiation For the sins of the people now, here's the thing.

54:28

There's two words that are really closely related there's execution and propitiation

54:34

Propitiation what just described when I talked about him going and suffering that is the act of procuring a payment of some sort

54:43

Propitiation is that payment being placed down In the hand of god.

54:48

It is that appeasement of god and his wrath being made so it's not saying that there was a a hypothetical

54:59

Atonement But that there was an actual transference of here is the atonement for sin placed in the palm of the hand of god propitiation for the sins of the people

55:11

And who were the people the ones who had flesh and blood the ones who were the children of abraham?

55:17

Which we know are the ones who have like faith is abraham So this is explicitly stating that christ came and laid down his life

55:28

For those who would be the descendants of abraham And not only lay it down, but he actually took that atonement and placed it

55:37

Uh in the possession of god the father in heaven. So that way it's done and over with there's no hypothetical or Um openness about it.

55:49

It was a definite act accomplished by christ on the behalf of sinners amen

55:56

Fantastic That's exactly right

56:07

We're not going to have time to look at all the other verses If you want to write them down anybody who's listening or watching

56:13

Um some of the rest of the verses and I think I had acts 8 32 to 34 ephesians 5 25 to 27 hebrews 9 15 hebrews 9 28

56:27

And then this last one i'm sure there's many many many more Uh, but this last one revelation 5 9 and i'm just going to read it.

56:33

Um And they sang a new song saying worthy are you to take the book and to break its seals for you were slain and purchased

56:44

For god with your blood men from every tribe tongue people and nation

56:51

Amen That's a beautiful text So I want to look at these um these opposition verses and and tackle those really quickly before we run out of time

57:00

So the first one is john um John 1 1 29 look at that one first John 1 29 and you guys jump in there

57:13

At any point The next the next day he saw jesus coming to him and said behold the lamb of god who takes away the sin of the world

57:24

So, so how do we um, how do we explain that with our limited atonement business

57:36

The uh Uh Chris roseborough explains the importance of this very well uh

57:48

In order to have an accurate interpretation of scripture three things we need to understand context context context right, so, um as You'll see in the other passages that you're going to read here in a moment, too um that the key is

58:06

Understanding, uh That Tennessee wasn't around new york wasn't around then

58:15

North carolina wasn't around then he wasn't He he it was It was the world in which they were aware of and it was the world of men

58:24

But there were distinctions that were made jew and gentile. So when we see that term world use

58:32

You can literally assume that he's speaking about jews or gentiles

58:37

Because he was very specific throughout the old testament, right that israel was his chosen people

58:44

And the gentiles was everybody else right left without but israel

58:51

Rejected the door of salvation was open made made open for the gentiles

58:57

We now have access to god through faith By one lord one faith one baptism one god one father of all who is in you all through you all

59:07

Uh as the scriptures teach so that term world is

59:13

I I think for me simplest simply simply Simplistically understood as jew and gentile.

59:21

So when you read that word world, it's speaking about jew and gentile So I I just want to make sure that I understand what you said clearly in my mind so um, you you have the jews

59:35

And then they said after their rejection of the messiah That door opened up to the gentiles in other words to the rest of the world so What he's saying here is that jesus jesus, um, the lamb of god didn't come to just take away the sins of One specific people that door was open and available to the world people from every tribe tongue and nation yep, because and we understand that everybody's

01:00:09

A sinner and in need of salvation. Okay, and god is God is perfectly

01:00:15

Just in his choosing His elect rather than everybody getting to choose him

01:00:26

And i'm gonna let you i'm gonna let you tackle this one no i've got a little different take on that Sure.

01:00:31

Yeah, go ahead on verse 29. I think what it's talking about the world. I believe it's talking about the whole of creation

01:00:38

Okay, um the whole whole Cosmos or cosmos whatever you want to pronounce it um

01:00:45

The reason the reason why I say that is that when jesus came he did come to take away the sin of the world

01:00:50

It either came to be paid for in him or for him to exact judgment upon it

01:00:56

A sin is going to be taken away from all of his creation So I think he's talking about the redemptive aspect of the whole world um

01:01:07

Who's the one who's coming in judgment upon the nations? It's jesus and who's the one who's coming to take away the sin of those who are who have

01:01:16

Find faith in him It's also jesus Um, he's coming to cleanse his creation

01:01:23

In order to restore what had been robbed from him um You know eden destroyed now eden restored

01:01:30

He's coming to do that now part of that is he's opening up salvation not just to jews, but to gentiles

01:01:40

All I think I think it reaches A little bit further than just the jew and gentile distinction.

01:01:46

I think that also bears out when we get into john's uh epistle

01:01:52

In the second chapter, which I don't know if we're going to get to it tonight Oh, but the word world is there as well.

01:01:58

And I think it's talking about the whole of creation there as well um But we'll get there if we get there

01:02:06

So so these two things that you guys described talking about john 1 29. Um Oh wrong one

01:02:15

So becky already brought it up With with gusto So what uh, the things that you guys said about 129 would it also apply to john 3 16

01:02:32

I believe so Okay, okay, so we got john 129 we got john 3 16 for god.

01:02:39

So love the world And so we're making a distinction between um an atonement that is sufficient for Every single person that's ever lived or ever will live.

01:02:50

Um we're saying that john is telling us that The door has been opened up to the whole world not just for one particular party

01:02:59

And that there's going to be a redemption also of the whole world eventually

01:03:08

Well the context Context again, who's he speaking to he's speaking to a ruler of the pharisees an israelite right

01:03:21

Yeah so He he's speaking to that. We can't we can't assume that he's speaking to everyone in general here

01:03:29

He's speaking to nicodemus so that nicodemus might understand Yeah It that's another great point for um for the bible student

01:03:38

Who's trying to understand how to study the bible and how to read it in its context? Know your audience know who the authorial intent who the author was.

01:03:47

Um what he meant Um who his audience was who he was speaking to because that helps determine meanings of passages who his audience was and and That carries over into all the eschatology conversations that we were talking or that we've had previously

01:04:04

Um, who who was the audience? Who was he talking to in matthew? Who was his audience?

01:04:10

So very very good stuff um First sympathy two six is is another one.

01:04:18

Uh dan um We'll we'll try to wrap things up. I don't I don't think we'll get to these other verses uh

01:04:25

What was the other was there another verse besides first timothy two six that you were thinking of That we could share first john two two first john two two

01:04:36

Yeah I believe it's first john two two He is a propitiation for our sins not ours only but also for the sins of the world of the whole world

01:04:55

So if anybody has I hope you'll jot down those those verses and look at them yourself John 129 john 316 first timothy two six and first john two two.

01:05:05

Um, look at those verses in light of um, What we've talked about tonight look at those verses in light of um the verses that Seem to describe an atonement

01:05:18

And and see what you come up with Test the scriptures test what we have to say With the scriptures to make sure it's accurate.

01:05:26

Um I Last two things um, we we get a definition or somewhat of some understanding of limited atonement from I pulled out from two different confessions 1689 baptist confession, uh chapter 8 0 .5

01:05:43

the lord. Jesus has fully satisfied the justice of god by his perfect um

01:05:52

Perfect obedience and his once for all sacrifice which he offered up to god the eternal spirit he has procured

01:06:01

Reconciliation and has purchased an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven for all those

01:06:06

Whom the father has given to him And then the the westminster confession, uh chapter 3 .6

01:06:14

It says as god has appointed there we go, you can read it right out of the book

01:06:21

Did you hold up the 1689? Yeah Hold on, man. I got you. That's right.

01:06:27

You got the hard backs there Oh, yes the three forms of unity

01:06:39

The westminster it says as god has appointed the elective to glory So has he by the eternal and most free purpose of his will for ordained all the means thereunto

01:06:51

Wherefore they who are Elected being fallen in adam are redeemed by christ are

01:06:58

Effectually called into faith in christ by his spirit working in due season are justified adopted sanctified and kept

01:07:06

By his power through faith unto salvation Neither are any other redeemed by christ effectually called justified adopted

01:07:15

Sanctified and saved by the elect but the elect only Amen.

01:07:21

Amen. Um Since we're not hyper calvinist, um

01:07:28

Claude will you share the gospel with us and um And and share that gospel call to to those god might be saving tonight

01:07:37

Or or later that watch this video. Yes, sir So the gospel is quite simply this according to first corinthians 15

01:07:44

That christ died for our sins that he was buried and that he rose again on the third day, what does that mean?

01:07:51

or how does that Practically apply to us. Well, we've all got a big problem

01:07:58

Bigger than anything we can imagine or realize and that is that we are sinners because we are sinners

01:08:06

We are under the wrath of almighty god But as we're learning about here tonight

01:08:13

That god elects and chooses men women boys and girls

01:08:20

Draw calls draws them unto himself. He Predestines he calls he justifies he sanctifies he glorifies those and Again, again the quote on old testament

01:08:33

Proverbs passage or actually maybe it's ecclesiastes, but to him that is joined to all the living there is hope so just People may people may fret and worry.

01:08:46

Am I elect? Am I am I one whom god has called you can be certain because if you?

01:08:53

Reckon, you can recognize the fact that you are a sinner and that your sins have separated you from a holy god

01:08:59

Then the lord has done a work in your life because outside of the work of regeneration in the life of an individual

01:09:09

There is no understanding of that you go to the grave And you think it ends, but it's not the end

01:09:16

So the gospel call is to for you As a sinner man as a sinner woman as a sinner boy as a sinner girl to recognize your inability

01:09:30

To save yourself that there's no amount of good works that you can do But that you are saved by grace through faith in christ alone according

01:09:41

To the work of christ alone and by the work of christ alone. So repent turn from your sin

01:09:47

Believe on the lord jesus christ and you shall be saved Dan, would you mind to close us in prayer?

01:09:55

Sure Dear heavenly father. Thank you for tonight. Thank you for your work. I pray that we'd all Get into it read it more

01:10:03

Uh seek to understand it and to change our lives to reflect the truth that was found in your work

01:10:09

Thank you for uh, jesus that he's come and died on the cross for our sins pray that we would know him more

01:10:15

Deeply each and every day Love you, gordon. Do you come to pray? Amen amen so sovereignty of god

01:10:24

Total depravity unconditional election limited atonement and now Irresistible grace coming up next thursday at 8 30 p .m.

01:10:33

Eastern time. Hope you can join us Jesus is king go live in that victory

01:10:39

Share the gospel of jesus christ speak with the authority of christ And live in the victory of christ.