The Good Ol' Boys of Georgia and Calls on a Variety of Topics

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00:34
And welcome to The Dividing Line on a Thursday afternoon. Beautiful day here in Phoenix, Arizona.
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It actually sort of dried out a little bit here at the surface. So we don't have much in the way of storms, dust storms, and light going on.
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But it also means it's going to get rather hot. I think, what, 108 today? Something like that.
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I saw somebody on Facebook complaining that it was 89 degrees outside. And I'm like, must be nice.
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But I think it got down to 89. Actually, it wasn't too bad this morning, I'll have to admit. I got back to running this morning, and it wasn't too bad.
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877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. 877 -753 -3341.
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While I was gone, there were various developments in the Ergon -Kanner situation.
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That looks weird up there. It's all pixelated. That's strange. I wonder why that is.
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But anyway, there were developments in the Ergon -Kanner situation on a number of fronts.
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You may not be aware of the fact that – do you notice the screen is all pixelated?
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It looks really weird. I don't know why, but it's odd. The first was, of course, of the two – that's much better, thank you.
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It just looked like, I don't know. Remember the first RGB monitor that we got?
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Wow, that was cool. Color, I think it was 640x480 resolution, and it was
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RGB. And after years of staring at a 6 -inch green screen and then a 12 -inch amber screen,
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RGB was wild stuff. But as soon as I started doing that, everybody else joins in.
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Yeah, well, I remember my first 300 -Watt modem. Well, I remember when you stored stuff on a cassette tape player.
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And then it just gets really bad after that, so we just – let's stop the old –
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Actually, I think you missed it earlier today. Turret and Fan was talking about his Abacus. Yes.
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I think that trumps all. Yeah, but he's not actually that old, so it doesn't –
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I actually – my first portable computer actually was the size and weight of a
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Singer sewing machine. Remember the Compaq? Oh, yeah, that was – that was great.
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I used to have to haul that around here and there, you know, a couple of places. I know, I know. I'm not sure what we ever eventually did with it.
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I don't know either. I just remember Mike and I having to apply for a $3 ,000 bank loan to get that thing.
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It didn't even have a hard drive. It was great. It was a beast. Oh, it was a beast, and WordStar dot commands and all that wonderful, fun stuff.
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It was great. But see, here we go. Stop, stop, stop. There's no ending to old people reminiscing about old computer technology.
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What is this? You can't – it's like a – Remember PC number five? Stop, stop.
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It's a disease. I was talking about Eric and Cantor, which is also a disease. So we just move on.
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Okay, what happened? Well, hopefully you all realize there have been two lawsuits.
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Both have been settled against Eric and Cantor. Well, he failed in both of them, and in an epic fashion.
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And in the first of the two, because it had originally been one lawsuit, and then it was split into two appropriately, and in the one against Jonathan Autry, the one where Cantor clearly was just – he was on a fishing expedition.
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He wanted to know who Turreted Fan was, wanted to know what role I was playing, all this kind of stuff.
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They asked for attorney's fees, and they got them. What was it? $34 ,000. And the judge very rightly recognized this was frivolous.
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It was not – the reason for it was not in any way, shape, or form copyright -protected material.
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It was an attempt to suppress criticism of Eric and Cantor for his life of lies.
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And everybody knew it. And thankfully the judge saw it and slapped him upside the head real good.
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And the quotes in the judgment are epic and completely appropriate.
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Has the great grandmaster of spin attempted to get around that?
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I haven't even bothered to look. But Dr. Peter Lumpkins, vice president of communications at Bruton Parker College, I would be really interested in seeing if he actually attempted to spin the words of the judge or if he has just been silent.
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I don't think any of it ever happened. Oh, okay. I think that's the approach. Nothing to see here.
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Move along. There is a second judgment waiting yet to happen, and that is in the second lawsuit with Jason Smathers.
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And we certainly hope that the judge will act on the request for attorney's fees there and that justice will be done in the same way as in the
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Jonathan Autry case. And it would be nice if the judge would make similar comments and once again demonstrate that Eric and Cantor was abusing the legal system and that he was doing so solely for the purpose of suppressing criticism of his many, many, many, many, many, many, many lies, which he has yet to repent of.
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And yet today is the 17th of July. You say, what's the relationship?
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Real simple. May I say something to Georgia Baptists for a moment?
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Y 'all got a problem. Y 'all got a serious problem down there. Notice I'm saying y 'all so that we can communicate better.
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Y 'all got a problem. Now, my dear daughter has moved to Georgia.
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Today I was FaceTiming with my beautiful granddaughter, who is now a little girl rather than just a little baby.
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And she only says a few words, but I'm sensing an accent.
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I really am. I may need to contact SkyMan again and ask for translational assistance.
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Anyway, you folks in Georgia, amongst
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Georgia Southern Baptists specifically, the Georgia Baptist Convention, which
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I think is the name of the Southern Baptists there. Y 'all got a problem. You got some big problems. Today is 17th of July.
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That means 10 days from now on the 27th. As of the last information that I have,
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Ergin Kanner will be preaching at one of the largest Southern Baptist churches in Georgia.
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And he will be preaching with the full knowledge of the leadership of that church in regards to his activities, his lies, and his utter lack of repentance.
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And it's tragedy. It's just tragedy. I am certain that Ergin Kanner will attempt to spin this into the beginning of his restoration.
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I don't think it's going to work for one simple reason, and that is I think that the
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Bruton -Parker situation is going to crash and burn. And that is the other illustration, because another thing that has happened was a man whose expertise is in accreditation issues wrote an article a few days ago responding to a video that Ergin Kanner posted, basically telling everybody, don't worry about Bruton -Parker and Sachs.
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Don't worry about our accreditation thing. We're fully accredited. We're going to stay fully accredited.
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All is well. Everything's good. This is just a bump in the road.
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We are in great financial situation. We've got all sorts of students coming.
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Well, this fellow who actually knows what he's doing responded and said, this is a bunch of lies.
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They have swung third time. They have struck out. And I think next month it's over with.
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And they're out of Sachs. Their accreditation is gone. And shortly after posting this, within what, a day and a half, two days?
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All of a sudden the post disappears and is replaced with an apology. For what?
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For telling the truth? Evidently, telling the truth amongst Georgia Southern Baptists, if it violates the central dogma of Georgia Southern Baptists, is a bad thing.
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And what's the central dogma? Well, it's a dogma that actually is sadly very much a central dogma for Southern Baptists as a whole.
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But it takes on a new character in Georgia, where politics reigns absolutely supreme.
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Absolutely supreme. And I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. And that is specifically, thou shalt not speak badly of a
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Southern Baptist leader, even if you're telling the truth. That's the problem. That is a major problem amongst
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Southern Baptists. You're just not allowed to speak the truth. All that stuff, we have our ways of dealing with it, and it's behind closed doors and it's done in a gentlemanly manner.
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Reminds me of Braxton Bragg at Chattanooga, for those of you who are
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Civil War historians. Anyway, so all of a sudden the truth about Cantor's...
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Again, I'm sorry. The man couldn't tell the truth if his life depended on it. He's given evidence of this over and over and over again.
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I mean, he was really proud of calling himself the pitbull of evangelicalism.
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Well, there are certain people that just get up ahead of steam, and they just run over everybody.
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And that's what Ergin Cantor is all about. I mean, I've just never seen anything like it.
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And no one will just stand up and stop the man who is in a position to do so. It's shocking to me.
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And so my gut feeling is that the
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Bruton -Parker situation is going to just blow up.
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And he and Petey Lumpkins drag this place under. And that may really put a crimp in the rejuvenation of the
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Ergin Cantor persona and image and so on and so forth. I don't know.
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But there is no question of the fact that the upcoming megachurch appearance is just one of those illustrations where politics just rules supreme.
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You don't give the pulpit of your church to a man that you know is an unrepentant liar.
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You just don't do it. I can't respect that. I don't care what the reasons are.
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And I don't care if you sit there and say, well, you know, certain people just got a tender heart. If you're the pastor of a church, you better not have such a tender heart that you will not defend the integrity of the pulpit of the church that you've been entrusted with.
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It's just, there's no excuse. There's none. It's just, if I didn't think the
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Lord was in charge, there would be times I would just, I don't know.
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But that's what's coming up. July 27th. And I just shake my head and go, well, this is simply how things are.
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I noticed Micah just now mentioning the story that I was talking about on The Dividing Line yesterday. There may be a time warp in California where they just slow the news down.
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Anyway, there was one other thing that happened while I was gone in the
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Cantor situation. And everybody and their uncle wanted to drag me into the middle of it.
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I'm thankful that I was away so that some of the emotion can dissipate.
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I think, honestly, I don't know that God ever designed us to function in the context that we are functioning in today where news comes at us with tsunami force, so many things, so fast, and we are expected to respond like that.
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I've certainly done it. I bet you've done it too. Sometimes it takes time to think through the developments in the world around us.
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And to give a meaningful response, it takes some effort, and it takes some thinking, and it takes time, and it takes reflection, and so on and so forth.
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I refer specifically to what happened with J .D. Hall and Ergon Cantor's son.
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I only caught portions of it while it was happening because I was on the road,
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I was away. When you're sitting trying to get
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Wi -Fi at a place you're not used to, there are people on Twitter going,
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Hey, you need to comment on this, and you need to get on this side, and you need to get on that side. I saw some real nastiness going on during that particular incident.
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I had a lot of thoughts, and I'm not even claiming to have seen all of it now.
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One of the things that bothers me is social media. I mean, the shooting down of the airliner today, part of the sources of information is social media.
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Well, I guess it's been that way for a while, because the first place
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I heard about the Japanese tsunami was
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Twitter. I actually saw footage of the tsunami wall coming in via a link off Twitter before I saw it on television.
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I turned the television on to cable news, but I saw the stuff first through Twitter.
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That's, again, part of the weirdness of the situation we face today.
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But anyway, part of the problem was, I haven't completely figured out
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TweetBot, because I would see parts of conversations, but I wouldn't see other parts of conversations.
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Sometimes I'm not completely certain how all the following stuff works. So you can end up with half the information, and only seeing half the story, and seeing someone mentioning what somebody else says.
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So you think they said it, and it's actually somebody else that said it. We've all seen these things just blow up.
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And most people were really confused about who said what to whom, in what order, and everything else anyways. So I was really concerned about that, and remain concerned about that, because I'm not 100 % certain of all the details.
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But add to that that I wasn't even trying, or not in a situation to be able to do so.
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Anyway, so I didn't get involved in it. I just sort of watched afterwards from afar, and saw some of the aftermath.
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And there was some real backbiting, and it got ugly. No two ways about the fact that it got ugly.
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Thank you for spelling that. I didn't know what a Georia Baptist was, but now
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I know it's a Georgia Baptist. Thank you. If you're not familiar with what happened, there was a very, very brief exchange on Twitter between Erick Cantor's oldest son and J .D.
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Hall. And what I saw of it was frightening.
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Frightening because the response from Erick Cantor's son was,
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I just say I'm old enough to say there's problems there. There's serious problems there. The pictures I saw, serious problems there.
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Really, really serious problems. And reason for sincere concern for that young man.
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There's no question about it. Everybody wanted to know, would you have ever engaged his son?
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No, I wouldn't have. I think
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I would have if he had engaged me. That, to me, I think would be a major difference.
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If he contacted me via Twitter or something like that,
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I think I probably would have responded to him. I don't think I would have ignored him. But that's not what happened.
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And J .D. has written a response, and obviously, very clearly to me, within what?
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One or two back and forths, he realized, I'm dealing with someone here that may, in my mind, be old enough to engage as at least a mature young person but clearly isn't, and so backed off.
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Well, a number of people went after him with pitchforks and fire.
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And I've got to leave J .D. to answer his critics on that because only he can speak to his motivations.
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I do think you leave kids out of it so you don't search them out. I've certainly seen people trying to do that with me.
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I've seen people trying to bring family issues in, digging through family history and everything else.
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And so I've got absolutely no interest in that at all. And so a lot of it would really have to be, do you trust what
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J .D. says about his intentions? And secondly, for me, it would have been extremely important, who initiated the contact?
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If the young man is allowed to engage in social media unsupervised, and it certainly seems from what
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I've seen that that's the case, and wanted to make comments from that perspective, that would be one thing.
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But it seems like he was sought out, and so that would be a problem. But unfortunately, that has greatly distracted from the real issue.
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And the real issue is still Ergin Kanner, and will always be
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Ergin Kanner, until Ergin Kanner recognizes that there are certain requirements incumbent upon a person who seeks to hold the positions that he seeks to hold.
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Specifically, to be a leader of Christian young people and Christian education, and to be a
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Christian minister behind a pulpit. It seems to me that when
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Ergin, when Butch Michael Kanner sought to minister to students at Columbine, that was a very different individual than Ergin Mehmet Giovanni Janer, whatever, trained jihadi son of polygamist
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Islamic scholar Dr. Kanner, etc.
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All the lies that he created to create this persona, to make up for the fact that his conversion, sadly, was a wonderful story.
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Unfortunately, here's a real illustration of theology mattering. The theology that he was taught led him to conclude that it wasn't a good enough story.
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That the salvation of a nominal Muslim kid, who was raised with an absent
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Muslim daddy, exposed on a nominal level to Islamic tradition and religion, but who obviously never took it overly seriously.
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Pictures of him in high school demonstrated that he did not take it overly seriously. His abject ignorance and mistakes in public lectures on Islam demonstrated he did not take it overly seriously.
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Still was converted, and that would have been a perfectly good story.
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It just wouldn't have made him into this WWF or WWE or whatever you call it now, persona that he wanted to be.
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That would have been enough. That would have been great. But that's all the past now.
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He will always be the issue, and anything that distracts from that issue just gives his small cadre of someday -to -be -judged -for -their -actions supporters and enablers further ammunition with which to defend.
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Not even defend. They're not defending, Cantor. They're seeking to create as much smoke and distraction, recognizing that people's attention spans are so short that they will run after everything and anything.
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It's sad when I hear Christians saying, This is so four years ago. Wow. Explains our relationship with church history, doesn't it?
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Really does. So that took place while I was gone, and I only heard about it, like I said, after I came to the channel and everybody's talking about it, and I'm like,
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What? What? What? And it took a few days just simply to track down even what few things
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I could track down as to what had actually taken place. Obviously, I would very strongly recommend prayer for Eric and Cantor's family, for those young children.
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If what we're saying is true and there is a pattern of lies, that's going to impact all of one's life.
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It's not just going to be in one area of one's life, and it's a shame to see that.
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It really is. So that took place while I was gone. When the large financial settlement, that's not a settlement, the attorney's fees, the first of two was decided,
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I learned that the preaching assignment for July 27th was going to go ahead, despite the knowledge of pretty much everybody involved concerning Cantor's utter lack of integrity to be called to do such a thing and to be given such a pulpit.
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I learned about that right before I left and just didn't have time to comment on it.
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Then the issues concerning Bruton Parker came up just a few days ago. So the folks in Georgia, those of you who already live there know that you are in the epicenter of anti -Calvinism in the
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Southern Baptist Convention. That's why this absurdity that Peter Lumpkins and others have created in the exact format of politicians on both the right and the left.
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Individuals who have no concern for truthfulness will create issues so as to distract people from the real issues.
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The issue of Calvinism -Arminianism is completely, 1 ,000 % irrelevant to the
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Eric Cantor situation. Any sane, rational, and honest person knows that.
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There isn't a single person in this audience who could pick up that phone and dial 877 -753 -3341 and argue against me on that.
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Not one of you. You know that. Peter Lumpkins couldn't call in here. All the rest of Cantor's defenders could never call in here and defend the idea that this has anything to do with Calvinism at all.
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You know that. That's why you sit there in silence and then get behind your keyboards and say otherwise because you know you can't be cross -examined.
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You know what the truth is. That's why I don't even know how you look at yourself in the mirror in the morning.
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I just don't know. But you're down there in the middle of that and that's why this foolishness has had the effect that it has.
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And you've just got a bunch of good old boys down there. And there'd be some
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Muslims and some Calvinists that hate this man. So he must be good.
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Wow. Sad situation. Phone lines are open.
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877 -753 -3341. And I guess we have a...
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This guy doesn't really... He doesn't count as a Georgia Baptist because he's not a
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Southern Baptist. I don't think. Yeah. Alright.
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Against my better judgment, I'll go ahead and do this,
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I guess. Okay. I am a Southern Baptist. Our church gives to the cooperative program.
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Your daughter and son -in -law and granddaughter are now official members of a
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Southern Baptist church. I thought you called yourself a Reform Baptist. Well, we're particular
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Baptists in that we're Calvinists, sure. But I mean we're not part of ARPCA or anything.
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We are part of the SBC, which I didn't know until about 2 or 3 years after I became a member.
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Well, that must be a real big emphasis then. Well, we have actual wine with our communion.
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So I just assumed there's no way we're SBC. Oh, great. Oh, that was dumb.
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Now you've got... Right now, Peter Lumpkins is firing up his blogging program right now.
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And then again, he doesn't know who you are. So you might be safe. Because I didn't even say your name.
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I didn't even say your name. You don't have to say your name. Your name's Horatio.
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I went ahead and said it. I am a Georgia Baptist because I've actually...
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This August will be 20 years in Georgia. And I left Northern Illinois when
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I was 19. So I've been in Georgia longer than I was in Illinois.
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It's a patient state. Patient people. Well, first of all, let me just go ahead and apologize for you, on behalf of you, for all of the great and kind and doctrinally correct
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Georgia Baptists that you just completely railroaded with this program by lumping us all into that same...
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So tell me, what have all these wonderful, proud Georgia Baptists done about the fact that you have a documented liar just about to speak at one of the largest
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Southern Baptist churches in Georgia? Well, I don't know about everybody else, but I know what this
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Georgia Baptist is going to do. I'm probably going to go there. I've already made changes to the schedule at my own fellowship, so I'm probably going to go there and perhaps record the thing before it gets canerized.
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But, yeah, I will probably be there. Absolutely. And then beyond that,
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I don't know. But I'm sure that Johnny Hunt's been talking to you about this, and apparently maybe he doesn't care.
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I don't know. I mean, it's... Could be worse than that. It could be worse than that.
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How do you mean? Well, maybe there's a thought that this will help.
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Maybe there's a thought that this is more needed than repentance and public confession of public lies.
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Oh, well, then that's just naive. That's just some really, really worldly naivety right there.
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See, I'm actually picturing something a little different. You know, remember the Jimmy Swaggart repentance tape?
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I think they're playing that over and over and over for him. This is how it's done.
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I don't think so. I do not expect any tears. I mean,
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I would love to be surprised, but I would love for Ergon Kanner to get up there and say,
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Folks, my text today is on the Publican, and this is why.
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And I stand before you as a sinner who made up my whole life story, and I exaggerated everything in the planet, and I have gone after people.
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I tried to suppress these things by frivolous lawsuits. I would love to hear all of that.
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But I just don't get the feeling that's what's going to happen. But I'll tell you what,
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Horatio, if that happens, will you give me an immediate phone call, maybe even if it's 4 o 'clock in the morning?
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I will text you immediately, regardless of the time. My problem right now is
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I'm trying to figure out which service he'll be speaking at, because I'm sure that FBC Woodstock has more than one service on Sunday morning.
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By the way, I just want to point out to people, I never mentioned the church. I didn't bring any of those issues up, but Horatio from Atlanta did.
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Well, there's a Facebook page about protesting at Woodstock. I didn't know that.
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There is? Yes. I'll go ahead and send it to you when I get back to my desk. I would like to see that.
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So just so we're clear, you're not the one that mentioned SBC Woodstock, Johnny Hunt's church.
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You didn't mention that. I did not mention that. Okay. Just wanted to be clear. Thank you. Yeah, whatever, man.
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I mean, I'm nobody. Oh, and by the way, before I go, your granddaughter is not going to have an accent.
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I mean, because she's growing up in a house where there is not an accent. I'm starting to hear it seep in, even with the others.
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It's so ubiquitous that it's going to be hard to avoid. No, maybe just a tiny bit with certain words.
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They might speak slower. Instead of saying football, they might say football. Football.
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Football, grandpa. I've been down here 20 years, and I don't have, at least I don't think I have, that kind of an accent.
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But it might be different growing up from a child. I really wouldn't worry about it.
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It'll be all right. Hey, did you see that picture? Oh, you did see that picture. Yeah, I did.
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I did. Well, look, I've got to get back to work. Thanks, Horatio. I will probably thank you for my code name.
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I appreciate that. All right. Bye -bye. Bye, Horatio. Oh, brother.
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Yeah, there you go. I hadn't mentioned anything about specifics.
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But I guess somewhere I knew that the church there,
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I guess, I don't know. Anyway. But I don't care what you say.
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The fact of the matter is when I tried to find a church in the
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Georgia area to do an updated Cantor presentation at, that ain't happening.
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That ain't happening. And there's the link, actually. Let me see here.
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Protesting Aaron Cantor at First Baptist. All right. Yeah, protesting
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Aaron Cantor at First Baptist Woodstock isn't a worthy cause. That's the opening. Yeah, okay.
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So there you go. That's interesting. Is that all there is to it?
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It's just one thing? That's great, yeah. Anyway, so that's what's coming up.
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Now everybody knows everything there is to know about that. And it does make me sad that that is taking place.
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Yeah, that first link was just a single post. If you use the second link that's in there, that's the actual Facebook page.
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Okay, so who led me astray the first time then? That would be SteelersFan. SteelersFan. Oh, thanks a lot,
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SteelersFan. You can blame SteelersFan. Okay, there it is. All right.
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Interesting. Interesting, yes. I can actually put that up on the screen if you want.
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Well, if you wish to. There's just interesting stuff here.
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I haven't had a chance to look at all of it, but I wonder how long this is.
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Does anything tell you how long this has been up there? Like when they started? May 13th.
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It was started May 13th. How do you know that? Because I know how to work the Facebook timeline. Oh. There on the right -hand side, you know, recent, 2014.
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You click that, and that pops you down. It says, Join Facebook May 13th. Join Facebook May 13th. There you go.
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That's right. And look over on the left there as to who's one of the members.
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Yes, I saw that. Yes. And just so we're clear, it was not you who mentioned
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First Baptist Church, Woodstock, Johnny Hunt's Church. Okay, I just wanted to make sure of that. I waited until someone called in, a guy named
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Horatio. A guy named Horatio did that. Well, anyway, let's move on from there because it's depressing.
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It really is depressing. I mean, you look at today, and I forget even what
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I was looking at online, and I start seeing something about a downed aircraft, and I turn on the news and follow the story about the shooting down of the man.
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I'm glad I don't own stock in Malaysian Air. I don't own stock in anything, but it is creepy to see.
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I saw on Facebook that one of the passengers who died had tweeted a picture of the plane, and the translation in English was,
40:36
In case this thing goes missing. So it's through the windows they're boarding. Here's a picture of the 777 and says,
40:45
In case this goes missing in light of what happened earlier. And I suppose if you did that with every flight you're on, eventually it would have some relevance.
40:58
I certainly get on enough planes and am supposed to be going to Ukraine in December.
41:03
It's the very first thing I thought when I heard the story. It's like, oh, my goodness. You're really going to do this?
41:11
Yeah, yeah. Well, obviously, the first thing
41:16
I thought of was the pastor of the church in St.
41:23
Charles, Van. Donetsk is where he has been going for years, establishing a
41:29
Reformed ministry there. And so this is keeping him from getting over there, obviously, and is greatly impacting the ministry there.
41:40
And the first thing I think about, I mean, obviously, this plane wasn't even going there. Right, it was just passing through. It was headed to somewhere in Malaysia, wasn't it?
41:49
No, I thought it was. Yeah, no, it was Malaysia. It came from Amsterdam to? Amsterdam to Malaysia. Okay. It was a through flight.
41:56
And, you know, people fly over hot zones like that. I mean, when
42:01
I flew from Frankfurt to South Africa, think of all the African nations I overflew that night while sleeping soundly.
42:11
You know, planes fly overhead all the time, except on the night of 9 -11, which was really freaky, if you remember that.
42:18
You know how many people today don't remember that? That's scary. I'll never forget that week because? There are people today, they'll soon be voting that can't remember that.
42:27
That tells you a lot. Do you remember standing out in the backyard that week and thinking how quiet the skies were?
42:33
Yeah, because I happen to live pretty much under, if planes are coming in from the north or east and they're landing to the east, so if that wind pattern in Sky Harbor, they fly over my neighborhood.
42:50
Well, that was your neighborhood then, too. Yes. Do you remember the World Series? Oh, yes.
42:56
And the B -1? Yes. The B -2 bomber. It flew over us. That thing was like, you could reach up and touch it.
43:04
That was weird. Yeah, it was cool. I also thought it was really cool that the Diamondbacks happened to have won that World Series.
43:11
One of the best World Series ever, in my opinion. But anyway, especially because we beat the
43:17
Yankees. Anyhow, I don't even have the phones up here because no one loves me anymore.
43:27
Probably because no one wants to talk about that subject. They don't want to either follow up after Horatio or they're afraid that I'm going to think they're
43:38
Peter Lumpkins. And we all know that Peter Lumpkins would never face me.
43:48
He wouldn't do it. 877 -753 -3341. You can call in on other subjects than the subject of canner or shot down aircraft and things like that.
44:06
That's fine, too. That would be great. By the way, I did post last night's
44:16
Bible study out of Psalm 1. Put on sermon audio from PRBC.
44:23
And I started preaching last night a little bit. So if you're looking for some kind of pick -me -up,
44:31
I was certainly encouraged by it. And maybe you all will be as well. So that is available on sermon audio.
44:41
Actually, I think I managed to put that on the blog, Facebook, Twitter, and Google+.
44:50
You've got to give me some credit. For me, that's a big change.
45:03
Anyhow, let's get to our phone calls here. And we've got – oh, wow.
45:10
Farther into the hour than I thought we were. I apologize. And let's start with Miles.
45:15
Hi, Miles. Hi, Dr. White. It's a pleasure to talk to you. Yes, sir. Yes. My question is in regards to King James' only -ism.
45:25
I've tried to digest whatever you put out on it through your book, through your talks, through your debates.
45:31
And I agree with you. It's definitely a blight on the Christian church. However, the positive outcome, at least for me, is
45:38
I've gained a greater appreciation of how we got our Bible. Oh, sure. Yeah. And just learning how to think more critically and better.
45:47
Oh, Miles, trust me. I'm actually thankful. I mean, there's so many times
45:53
I've been writing a book. I've been going, oh, there's so much confusion. This has caused so much damage. And then years later,
45:58
I look at what the Potter's Freedom did. I look at what the King James' only controversy did. And someone who's had to struggle with that is in a much better position to be able to defend the validity of the transmission of the text of Scripture to a
46:09
Muslim or an atheist or whatever, certainly better prepared to deal with a Bart Ehrman than they would have been if they hadn't gone through that.
46:16
So, you know, the Lord uses it all. He's always in control, even when we sit around and fret and everything else.
46:23
And another positive outcome was that's how I discovered your ministry, and that's how I've been blessed and edified through just the things you've talked about.
46:31
You know that I lived in Harrisburg for six years. I did. I wish
46:36
I knew you around at the time. Well, I was 10. Okay.
46:42
I probably would have been a toddler. I wouldn't appreciate that too much, but, wow.
46:50
Anyways, yes, sir. Yeah, so I've been carrying on a conversation on a
46:57
Facebook forum about KJV -onlyism. I know you've said KJV -onlyism is dying, but it's dying a very slow death, and there are plenty of folks on Facebook that are doing what they can to keep it on life support.
47:09
Oh, sure, sure. Well, realize one thing. Social media can give us the sense that something is much bigger than it really is, and it gives voice to people who want to scream the loudest.
47:22
So I've had to try to learn to try to judge size and influence in other ways than how many people attack me on Facebook or have
47:33
Facebook pages or things like that, because there is so much weird stuff out there, and the net has no filters for theological aberration.
47:43
So I look at Steven Anderson's new movie, and I look at the churches, and they're tiny.
47:49
They're tiny, tiny, tiny. And I know it's still – people who are looking for something will find it, and KJV -onlyism tends to find certain people who want a level not of – they want a level of certainty that is incommensurate with actual truth.
48:11
So they're willing to trade truth for certainty, and that's what you get.
48:17
And you mentioned Steven Anderson. A lot of them have latched onto that movie and posted links to it.
48:28
I've posted links to some of your past work on it and tried to show, hey, this is only – you're only going to get one side of this.
48:36
And Anderson had a two -hour conversation with you and only put 90 seconds of that conversation.
48:42
Right, right. It was over two hours. And we have – his producer has said what?
48:51
I have an update on that. Oh, good. Because I emailed Pastor Anderson about three weeks ago and never heard back.
48:58
And I pressed the issue again on Friday, and apparently I was sending to an email address that he doesn't use very much.
49:06
And I said, this rumor's out there. What's the deal? And he came back to me and basically said, yeah, I heard the same thing, and I basically told the producer,
49:14
I'm paying for it. Put it out. We're actually supposed to see something soon. I just hadn't had a chance to catch you up on that.
49:20
Oh, I hadn't even heard about it. Well, that's good. Because we had made the offer. I have the producer's email address.
49:28
And someone had told me that they had said, well, it's a money matter, to which I was going to respond, not for us it's not.
49:35
Not in the sense that we have the money. Just provide the footage. You'll put it together. And that was the last
49:42
I knew of it. So, Miles, according to that, we've got Steve and Anderson saying it's going to be made available.
49:49
Well, that's good. We need to hear the rest. I would love to hear the rest of that conversation.
49:54
Oh, believe me, everything that was even slightly relevant to translation,
50:02
King James only -ism, everything else, was not used. What was put in had nothing to do with the issue.
50:08
I mean, seriously, something about the New World translation and marshmallow juice? Honestly?
50:15
I thought that was one of the funnier parts of the exchange, but it certainly had nothing to do with the reality of the discussion.
50:22
So, it'll be out there, hopefully. I mean, like I said, we have the audio recordings if we absolutely have to.
50:29
But it would be much more interesting to see it. Oh, yeah. I think people would get a whole lot more out of it, and they would have higher quality.
50:36
All I've got is the MP3 sitting there. I can tell you right where it was, even in the video that's already out there.
50:44
If you see the picture of me and my wife on a cruise at our table, on the table between me and Steven Anderson, there was an
50:52
MP3 recorder behind it. So, that's all there is to that. Well, I did have a question.
51:04
Like I said, I've digested as much as I can from what you provided, what some other men have provided too.
51:11
But sometimes I struggle with the Antioch versus Alexandria thing.
51:18
They're very good about putting these little what I call propaganda posters up, how the transmission of the text came and where the corrupt
51:25
Alexandrian text came and stuff. What's the best way to respond to the
51:31
Antioch versus Alexandria thing? Well, the problem is that's just historically naive.
51:37
I mean, it's just an assertion. There were heretics in Antioch, and there were Orthodox in Alexandria, and vice versa.
51:44
And it wasn't, for example, the folks in Antioch that were defending the deity of Christ after the
51:50
Council of Nicaea. It was the Bishop of Alexandria, Egypt. They have Athanasius that did that.
51:58
And the idea that we have origination stamps that tell us exactly where a manuscript came from is just absurd.
52:07
We don't. We can identify. We can say, well, this is an Alexandrian text, but there were
52:14
Alexandrian texts being copied all over the place, depending on what the textual character of your exemplar was.
52:20
It's just a general regional attachment. It's not like, well, as long as you're in Alexandria, this is what every text in Alexandria read.
52:29
No, there were people that brought Byzantine texts into Alexandria and vice versa. So that's just a made -up historical accusation.
52:41
And, of course, when you challenge it, well, Dr. Gipps said that, therefore it must be true. Well, again, deceiving and being deceived.
52:50
You have to try to get people to get past, well, I read it in a book someplace to give me some serious foundation for this.
52:59
And unfortunately for a lot of these folks, they're just not willing to go there. They're not willing to do that kind of work, and they wouldn't know where to look to find that information in the first place, which is a real problem.
53:13
And do you have time for a follow -up question? Real quick. Okay. It's my understanding that the critical text that makes up the
53:20
NA27 United Bible Society's text – I want to make sure when I tell people this
53:26
I'm giving good information. It's not just a warmed -over version of Westcott and Hort. Oh, goodness. They consult all the information that's available.
53:34
Well, yeah. I mean, obviously they're going to say, yeah, but the principles they use are going to cause them to go the same directions that Westcott and Hort did.
53:42
But the reality is that when you compare the readings of Nessie Island 28th or UBS 4th, soon to be
53:50
UBS 5th, and you compare them with Westcott and Hort, there has been a correction, which is what's supposed to take place over time.
54:00
There has been a correction for the overemphasis upon Sinaiticus and Vaticanus that Westcott and Hort, by the nature of when they lived and what was available to them, especially prior to the discovery of the papyri, would have experienced.
54:16
And so then you have the discovery of the papyri, which, again, provides further information and more balance and a greater database from which to draw, et cetera, et cetera.
54:27
That's all fine and good. The problem is King James Onlyist isn't interested in any of that and doesn't think that there should be any correction because, well, we've already been given the standard in the first place.
54:38
So they're not even in the game. They're not even in the field where they can actually allow for an improvement of the text of the textus receptus, depending on whether they're a real
54:50
King James Onlyist, English -reinspired type person, or whether they're just trying to defend the
54:56
TR or just where they are in that field. They're not even in the game. They can't take into consideration any new findings.
55:04
We have the Green Project right now with new papyri findings. It's irrelevant to them. They can't rejoice in that.
55:11
They can't rejoice in that, and they can't even engage in meaningful apologetics of the text of the New Testament because their theology won't allow them to.
55:20
Even though the King James translators were not… Oh, yeah. They wouldn't be cagey if they were alive today.
55:28
Exactly. They would have no earthy idea what these people are talking about, and they would be, I think, deeply offended at the utter abuse of their translation.
55:37
In direct contradiction to the principles that they themselves laid out in the foreword to the readers, and that says a lot right there.
55:47
So, hey, Miles, thanks for the call. Appreciate it. You've helped me out so much with this. I can't thank you enough, Dr. Pollard.
55:52
All right. Thank you. Thanks for your call. God bless. Thank you. Bye -bye. All right. I want to slide in here real quick because this morning
55:57
I got an email. It's real short and should take just a moment to answer, and it's a really good question. It's actually,
56:02
I think, rather common. This gentleman says he spent 40 years of his life attending Arminian churches and thought that his theology was correct.
56:10
Your ministry, along with the ministers at John MacArthur and R .C. Sproul, have helped him, he and his wife, to see the errors in Arminian theology, and they are now attending a
56:19
Reformed Baptist church. He has one question for you, though, and that is what is the difference when you say the word ordain versus the word decree?
56:32
I would have to have a context to be able to answer that because there could be all sorts of times when they're actually meaning the exact same thing.
56:48
God's decree is normally the substantive. That's the noun form.
56:56
Do you want to go a little longer to try to – yeah, let's try to at least get in what we've got.
57:03
When I talk about God's decree, I'm talking about that which forms the very fabric of time, the very essence and nature of creation itself, which flows from the free decision of the triune
57:17
God to bring glory to the triune God in the way that is most pleasing to the
57:25
Trinity itself. That can then be turned into a verb where God decrees whatsoever comes to pass.
57:39
The term ordain, I generally would not be using it in a way that would distinguish it from the decree.
57:48
It would normally be a synonym for decree. If someone were to say, well,
57:57
I distinguish between the two, I don't know upon what grounds you would make that kind of distinction, to be perfectly honest with you.
58:05
We've got three lines right now, and we're going to try to get – let's try to get all of them in.
58:13
Let's talk to Gabriel. Hello, Gabriel. Can you hear me? I can. Okay, thank you.
58:20
I have a couple of questions. Well, one question on baptism. I'm a young Reformed Baptist, but I happen to be in a
58:29
Presbyterian church, so I get asked a lot of questions on this. And one of the questions that I'm usually asked is based on the
58:38
Westminsters for the Catechism question in which they say, how do you improve a point of baptism, or how do you continue to use your baptism?
58:47
And the answer they usually give is related to the fact that because baptism is something that God does towards them, and it's basically passive, that means they can actually be encouraged by it and things like that.
59:03
And so I tried to look through some other, like the London Baptist Confession, and looked also through so many catechisms, and I didn't find a question or a statement similar or at least contrasting that view.
59:18
So my basic question would be, in terms of how a Reformed Baptist would say continue to use their baptism, is it in much the same way as a
59:28
Presbyterian would, where you would use it during times of temptation, it's a means for drawing strength from the death and resurrection of Christ, mortifying sin, and things like that?
59:40
Or is it somewhat different because we have a different view of baptism? Well, I would see a difference in that every time
59:49
I have witnessed, for example, we had a baptismal service recently, and there were a number of young men who were baptized, and they gave testimony to the grace of God in their lives in their baptism.
01:00:07
And so not only for them would that be a recollection of their testimony of their death, burial, and resurrection with Jesus Christ, because that is what baptism pictures, is one's union with Christ.
01:00:22
Both of the ordinances are pictures of the gospel, both in the breaking of the bread and the cup, a picture, obviously, of the sacrifice of Christ in baptism, and that's one of the reasons
01:00:36
I think the form of baptism is important biblically, is death, burial, and resurrection, union with Christ.
01:00:43
But also, it is the giving of testimony of one's, it is the initial testimony before a public audience of one's identification with Jesus Christ.
01:00:57
And so you, obviously, if you're a quote -unquote secret disciple, you don't have that public testimony.
01:01:08
But as that's not a real biblical option, you have that option of remembering back when you gave testimony, and the encouragement that that was for you, and the encouragement that it was to the people of God.
01:01:24
You know, when I think back upon my baptism, I was a young child, and of course
01:01:30
I think about the fact that people had mentioned that all they could see was my head. I like the fact that in Reformed Baptist churches, and I was not baptized in a
01:01:39
Reformed Baptist church, in Reformed Baptist churches, generally, there is the opportunity given for that testimony and that confession of faith in Christ.
01:01:47
And for some people, I know, it's a challenge for them to be able to do that.
01:01:54
But they do it anyways, and so there are a number of things. So there would be similarities, but I think there would also be differences, only in the sense that, obviously, from our perspective, this is a testimony of one's faith in Jesus Christ.
01:02:11
And it's something that you can look back upon and remember, because you participate in it.
01:02:16
Obviously, a Pado -Baptist has to look at that more as a general fulfillment, but it's not something you can yourself remember.
01:02:25
You have to go on the testimony of others that, yes, that actually did take place. So we would see a difference at that point, but I think a lot of the other things would be similar in the sense of God's...
01:02:37
But even here, when I say God's faithfulness since that time, if you're a
01:02:45
Presbyterian that believes that your actual regeneration takes place after that, that's different than the
01:02:52
Reformed Baptist who's talking about regeneration took place before that, and there has been the faithfulness of Christ ever since then.
01:03:00
So yeah, there would be some differences that, again, go back to our view of what the New Covenant is, how one enters into the
01:03:06
New Covenant, etc., etc., which is, I'm assuming you're familiar with the debates we've done on that subject of baptism, and probably listened to the debate between myself and Bill Shishko and so on and so forth.
01:03:19
Yes. Okay. All right, thank you. All right, thank you, Gabriel. All right, God bless.
01:03:25
All right. Yeah, let's real quickly... I'm going to try to get the last two in here.
01:03:31
Let's talk with James. Hi, James. Hey, Dr. Way. How are you doing? Good. Hey, I have a practical question for you.
01:03:39
I have tried to follow in your footsteps and...
01:03:45
That's first mistake. I think you're a great role model, man.
01:03:52
But especially when it comes to this field, because I know what the question is, getting into apologetics. Yeah, I do have one scheduled debate with somebody.
01:04:01
We're working on a venue. Red McCall, who's the president of the Oklahoma Atheists, has agreed to debate me on the pros and cons of religion.
01:04:09
But that's it. I mean, some of the others, of course, we know why Matthew Vines won't debate either you or me.
01:04:16
Yeah, well, if the question is getting into apologetics, what
01:04:22
I meant by that's your first mistake is... And a number of people will be able to testify this is the case.
01:04:30
When people ask me that question, especially in venues after a debate or something like that,
01:04:36
I'm fairly well known for throwing cold water on them and saying, if there's anything else that you can do, I would suggest doing it.
01:04:42
The reason for that is that my first public debate took place seven years after the founding of Alpha and Omega Ministries.
01:04:59
And even then, for the next probably at least eight years.
01:05:04
So I'd say for the first 15 years, we're still a small ministry, but at least a few folks know that we exist and we have some impact on a wider scale.
01:05:21
But for the first 15 years, it was very small little seminars.
01:05:28
I remember very clearly working real hard to put together a seminar on the
01:05:36
New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses, and nobody showed up. I was the only one there.
01:05:42
I was sitting there with handouts and a ghetto blaster to record it and that had been donated by someone.
01:05:49
And nobody came. And, you know, after about 15 minutes, you just go home and go on from there.
01:05:56
I honestly think that's sort of part of the process of proving yourself over time.
01:06:06
I also think that there's a lot of education, a lot of study. And I think there's a lot of proving yourself in the local church.
01:06:16
I mean, during all that time, I was involved in local church. I was teaching in the local church.
01:06:23
So I don't think that there is any one way of, quote unquote, getting into apologetics.
01:06:29
I think it should be an extension of one's ministry in the local church and things like that.
01:06:39
And so, you know, when I look at everyone who's involved in apologetics, they've pretty much gone different paths to get there.
01:06:48
There isn't any one specific way of doing it.
01:06:53
It's, you know, the Lord calls and the Lord provides opportunities, and there really isn't any one way of accomplishing it.
01:07:01
I think if I would add just one thing to the equation, a lot of people don't realize during that period of time you talk about, we were so hand -to -mouth around here, and there wasn't a lot in the hand to put in the mouth.
01:07:14
I worked, I met you, what, in 87? 86 or 87. Late 86, early 87,
01:07:21
I think. We're both old enough now not to worry about the specific dates. Yeah, but in 10 years,
01:07:27
I went without a salary at all. There is a lot of trench work that goes on with this.
01:07:37
You have to be willing to, you have to be called to do this.
01:07:42
Oh, yeah, it's got to be a fire in the bones. Like I said to everybody else, if there's anything else you can do well, that's what
01:07:51
I say to everybody, because it takes a lot of stick -to -itiveness, and people say, well, you've had all these opportunities now, and you've got all those books out, and coming up on 140 debates, and now it's easy for you.
01:08:05
No, it isn't. But there was lots and lots of years that came before that, lots of years that came before that, and it was just faithfulness within that context, it really was.
01:08:18
Well, I appreciate your time, and by the way, I listened to your presentation from New Mexico. You did an awesome job. Well, thank you.
01:08:24
Thank you, James. Appreciate it. We're going to get one more. All right, thank you. All right, get one more in here real quick. Let's talk with Dan.
01:08:30
Hi, Dan. Hey, Dr. White. Can you hear me okay? I can. Well, Dan, in fact, it's interesting. I'm not sure.
01:08:36
Are you a fan of Hawaii Five -0? No, I'm not. Because the way it's on the screen is
01:08:42
Dan -o, so that must mean Ohio, huh? Sure. Yeah, I just have a question pertaining to Arminian theology, and I'm curious, in Arminian theology, what does regeneration actually do for somebody if there's an ability in somebody prior to regeneration to be able to put faith in Christ?
01:09:07
What does regeneration actually do in that case? How does an
01:09:12
Arminian work through regeneration? Well, I think you'd get a much fuller and probably more interesting response from Jerry Walls or Roger Olson or someone like that as far as their perception of if there is a radical nature to regeneration.
01:09:33
Because obviously, as I look at it, they're going to affirm— let me put this in the context of the best
01:09:44
Arminians who, from my perspective, are completely inconsistent. They're going to affirm that that is going from being the enemy of God to the friend of God and submitting to Christ, and they're going to use a lot of the same terminology.
01:09:58
What you're touching on, obviously, is does it make such a big difference as to the actual spiritual capacity of the individual because they already have the spiritual capacity to do what is spiritually good in God's sight in the first place.
01:10:15
Right. And so thinking of Michael Brown or someone like that,
01:10:20
I would think that they would emphasize the presence of the Holy Spirit, the inclusion of desires for holiness and the desire to glorify
01:10:31
God, which, of course, we come back and say, but you're already saying we had the capacity to do that on at least some level before regeneration anyways because repentance would be something that would be glorifying to God.
01:10:44
Faith is something that would be glorifying to God. We could not be so opposed to holiness that we would not submit and repent to a holy
01:10:55
God even before regeneration, which brings about regeneration. I see all of those things.
01:11:00
I get that, and that would be one of my great objections. But their response would be that—my assumption would be that, yeah, but all that's dependent upon prevenient grace, that wonderful chimera that I find to be utterly unbiblical and the glue that holds it all together and allows the
01:11:22
Arminian to talk about grace while still controlling grace by the power of the human will.
01:11:31
Most of the better ones anyways are going to look at prevenient grace as the means of saying, well, there's where the difference is.
01:11:41
And then once regeneration takes place, then you have all the rest of the spiritual desires and so on and so forth that prevenient grace would only provide in a small portion or in a minimized way.
01:11:54
But I hesitate to say much more than that. I would really honestly suggest asking an
01:12:01
Arminian, one who maybe has thought it through. Most of the Arminians I know haven't, to be perfectly honest with you.
01:12:09
And then you can somehow undo that regeneration? Well, for some of them,
01:12:14
I mean, obviously there are Arminians who do believe that once you get your ticket punched, all that free will stuff they fought for so valiantly for so long goes bye -bye, and that's no longer really relevant, and you lose your free will.
01:12:32
I've never understood how any Arminian can consistently believe in the perseverance of the saints or any kind of form of one, save it all, eternal security, whatever terminology they want to use.
01:12:44
But there are a lot of them that do, and they are very, very clearly inconsistent in holding to those things.
01:12:51
And then one last thing. Do you lose the Holy Spirit when you undo that regeneration?
01:12:58
Is that what an Arminian would think would take place? The Arminian who believes you can lose your salvation, yes.
01:13:05
They would probably point to David's words, Take not your Holy Spirit from me, as an example of what should be the cry of the
01:13:14
Christian heart. Obviously, I would think Ephesians 1 .14 would be more directly relevant to someone in the
01:13:20
New Covenant. But anyway, in that sense, I would just think that in the sense of progressive revelation, that once you have the whole revelation that's been given by God there in Ephesians 1 of what
01:13:37
God's eternal purposes are, then you get to Ephesians 1 .14, and now the Holy Spirit is described as the
01:13:43
Arabon, the down payment that God is giving as His commitment to the completion of this task of salvation.
01:13:54
That would not be something that prior to Christ, David would have had a full understanding of.
01:14:01
Nor would he have had access to Hebrews 8 and the interpretation provided that is there and things like that.
01:14:09
But again, there are other Arminians who say, no, that's not a part of the actual system itself.
01:14:16
They believe that once you're saved, you're sealed with the Holy Spirit and that's it. I find that grossly inconsistent, but they're there.
01:14:24
And you've got to allow them to be inconsistent and press them on that particular issue. Right. Okay, great.
01:14:31
Appreciate that, Dr. White. Okay, thanks, Dan. All right, God bless. And there comes the music immediately upon that.
01:14:38
It looks like we'll have an hour and 15 minutes pretty much close there, so good. All right, thanks for listening to the program today.
01:14:46
Be back again, Lord willing, next week on Tuesday. I'm going to be preaching the next couple of weeks at PRBC, so we're going to be pressing on in Hebrews for those who have been listening to that.
01:14:57
So just to let you know, those will be being posted, Lord willing, as they are preached. So thanks for listening to Dividing Line.
01:15:03
see you next time. God bless. .