The Predestination Debate (White vs Brown)

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Well, it's a real delight to be with you tonight Special delight to be with my dear friend and colleague.

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Dr. White Sorry, we couldn't be more colorful a few years ago.

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I debated rabbi silver in Florida Followed by a debate with rabbi gold We tried to have a third one, but seriously, but we could not find rabbi platinum or rabbi diamond

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So we just left it there, but you're left with brown and white. I know it's Valentine's Day But I have to say this is this is a more appropriate debate than the one

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I had five years ago on Valentine's Day with a gay activist Claimed to be a born -again Christian Although James and I will really do our best to lay out

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Why we differ on some of these subjects of Calvinism predestination election what the

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Bible says about how God saves us We'll do our best to lay out our differences our mutual prayers that God will be glorified and that you will leave here more devoted to him and in love with him and hungry for his word than when you came in and Although we definitely have differences here that we'll do our best to highlight and challenge each other on why we hold to what we hold

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To James is a frontline apologist going into mosques in London and debating

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Muslims Taking on cults and false religion and doing it fearlessly for the gospel So I honor my brother in the midst of these differences

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I noticed earlier today that someone posted on my Facebook page a comment. That was a derogatory comment towards dr.

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White and I said we don't have that here in my Facebook page Thankfully it balanced out with someone just instant messaging me that I'm not saved.

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So it's all working out falling into place. I Was a

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Calvinist for five years 1990 1977 to 1982 so I'm not going to caricature

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Calvinism tonight I'm not a basher and we could give a list of many great

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Calvinist scholars teachers preachers evangelists missionaries My desire is that we understand the

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God of Scripture. I am very jealous for the glory of God I am very jealous that we understand the grace of God and my only question is are we willing to bow down?

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To the God of the scriptures. That's my challenge. That's my question I'll be quoting a lot of scripture to you tonight

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I assure you though that I can back up every point I make with detailed

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Exegesis of the text in the original languages, so I'm not just throwing things out even if everyone gets challenged

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I assure you I can back them up carefully number one It's absolutely clear

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From the word that there are many things that people do that grieve God and are contrary to his will and desire

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He certainly did not in any sense ordained them Throughout the word he distances himself from human sin and evil

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It makes clear that this was not what he intended for his creation For example

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Genesis 6 5 and 6 the generation of the flood the Lord saw How great was man's wickedness on earth and how every plan devised by his man was nothing but evil all the time and the

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Lord Regretted that he had made man on earth and his heart was saddened He did not say I ordained for you to do these things or in any sense predestined them for you rather He was grieved and pained over these actions in fact

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Jeremiah 7 verse 31 this was the generation that was about to go into exile when they were burning their sons and daughters in the fire to to Molech and the high places of Tophet God said this the things that they did burning their sons and daughter in the fire

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I did not command nor did it come in my mind in other words I absolutely never intended for you to do these things

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It's summed up in Ecclesiastes 729 where the author says this see this alone, and I found that God made man upright, but they sought out many schemes second point

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Throughout the word God calls us to make choices Commending those who trust and obey him like Abraham whom he calls his friend in Isaiah 41 8 and Condemning those who refuse his grace if you just start reading the

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Bible from the beginning without theological Presuppositions as much as as humanly possible you will see that the

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Bible presupposes that there is an ability to choose life or death or to receive an offer of grace or to Reject it even if you say

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God is the one who enables us to make that choice He calls us to make a choice, and he commends those who choose to put their trust in him and condemns those who refuse

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That's why it's written in Deuteronomy 30 verse 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today

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Moses speaking that I've set before you life and death Blessing and curse that the whole universe see

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I'm giving you a choice to make therefore choose life that you and your offspring may live Luke 13 24

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Jesus urged the people of his day strive to enter the narrow door for many

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I tell you will seek to enter and will not be able and when Paul is explaining in Romans 2 how there's no partiality in God This is what he writes

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God will render to each one according to his works to those who by patience and well -doing

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Seek for glory and honor and immortality he will give eternal life But for those who are self -seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness

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There will be wrath and fury for God shows no partiality and There are many scriptures that indicate to us that God does not

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Predetermine all the responses of humanity can God work out his plan in the midst of sinning people he does it every day

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Can God accomplish his ultimate will in the midst of a rebellious planet? He does it every day do people sin against his will and reject his will by the choices.

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They've been given yes Absolutely, and God does not predetermine that people reject him

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Look at what's written in Jeremiah 36 God tells the prophet to write down on a scroll all the words of judgment

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Against Israel and Judah and then he says this in verses 2 and 3 perhaps

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Hebrew Eli simply means perhaps When the house of Judah hear of all the disasters I intend to bring upon them

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They will turn back from their wicked ways, and I will pardon their iniquity and their sin Now there's some who come to a wrong theological conclusion open theists as they're called that God actually doesn't know what people are going to do

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But for this text to have any meaning at all when this prophecy is given God saying there's actually the possibility in terms of their

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Own experience that they may choose to obey or not obey That's why God says perhaps to Jeremiah because they had not yet made their decision did

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God foreknow it yes He foreknows things we do but foreknowledge and free will are not opposites

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Look what God says in Ezekiel 22 verses 30 and 31

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And I sought for a man among them Who should build up the wall and stand in the breach before me for the land that I should not destroy it destroy it

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But I found none so instead. I've poured out my indignation and wrath I was I was looking to give them an opportunity if I found one

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Person that would stand in the gap and intercede I'd hold back my fury. I couldn't therefore. I destroy there was no one there even if we think of the image of God the potter in Jeremiah the 18th chapter is the most detailed account where God sends

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Jeremiah look at the potter look at what he does He makes one piece of pottery doesn't like it He smashes it he starts afresh with something new and he has the freedom to do it because he's the potter

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In fact you should write a book on that theme one of these days James What is the potter layout what is the divine potter say in Jeremiah chapter 18 that when he decrees disaster for a nation if They repent then he'll relent of the disaster won't bring it on them if he declares blessing and they turn to evil

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He'll relent of the blessing and instead bring judgment so the potter has set it up by his free

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Sovereign choice as God and King and ruler this is the way he set it up, and this is explicitly what's in Scripture a

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Principle then that emerges from this is simple if he calls us to repent he enables us to repent

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That's why Paul writes in Romans 1 16 the gospel is the power of God to salvation everyone who believes and And that's why to the dead helpless sinner the word says in Ephesians 5 14

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Awake O sleeper and arise from the dead and Christ will shine on you

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God awakens us God gives us opportunity Will we receive his grace will we refuse his grace?

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number three Throughout the word God makes clear that he takes no delight in the death of the wicked

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But desires rather that they would repent and live Many scriptures point to this

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I'll just give you a few Ezekiel 18 23 is it my desire that a wicked person shall die says the

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Lord God is rather that he shall turn back from his ways and live Or the ESV renders it have

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I any pleasure in the death of the wicked declares the Lord God and not rather that he should Turn from his way and live

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Then it continues in verses 30 to 32 God says therefore I will judge you Oh house of Israel everyone according to his ways declares the

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Lord God repent He's urging them. He's calling them repent and turn from all your transgressions.

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Let's iniquity be your ruin Cast away from you all the transgressions your transgressions

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Excuse me that you've committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit how by the call to repent That's where the empowering comes from Why will you die

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Oh house of Israel for I have no pleasure in the death of anyone declares the Lord so turn and live Ezekiel 33 11 as I live declares the

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Lord It's not my desire that the wicked shall die, but that the wicked shall turn from his evil ways and live Turn back turn back from your evil ways that you may not die

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Oh house of Israel when some Determinately refuse him then God will righteously judge that person and even give them over to unbelief and delusion and even in that sense

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Harden them in their sin by giving them over to it That's when they refuse his gracious invitation to repent

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But his desire his preference for human beings is that we repent and live

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Micah 718 asked the question who is a God like you the very name Micah short for me

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Hi, who is like Yahweh and he closes out his book by saying who is a God like you?

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Who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance you do not stay angry forever

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But to delight to show mercy he hath faced chesed who he delights to show mercy

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That's the God that we serve Look at what he says in the midst of a rebuke of Israel Jeremiah 31 20 is not

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Ephraim my dear son The child in whom I delight though. I often speak against him. I still remember him

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Therefore my heart yearns for him. I have great compassion for him. I Contrast that with a famous saying of John Calvin from his

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Institutes God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel in such a way that individuals were born who were doomed from the womb to certain death

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And are to glorify him by their destruction verse after verse after verse that I've read and that I could read says the opposite of that if The people repented

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God would have been glad their failure to repent brought him grief and clearly God desired their repentance number four

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This is further confirmed throughout the word as God expresses his ardent desire For his creation to know him with Israel often as the focus of his love

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Look at what he says in Jeremiah 3 19 and 20 I said how

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I would set you among my sons and give you a pleasant land a heritage Most beautiful of all nations and I thought you would call me my father and would not turn from following me

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But you've been treacherous. That's what I desired. That's what I wanted. That's what I was offering to you Think throughout

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Jeremiah how many times the description occurs that God rose early and sent the prophets

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I'm giving you opportunity after opportunity after opportunity not simply so that I can be deemed

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Righteous in judging you but to give you the genuine opportunity to repent because I don't take pleasure in the death of the wicked

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But rather that they turn and live Jesus echoes this speaking as pre -existent wisdom in Luke 13 34

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Oh Jerusalem Jerusalem you who killed the prophets and stole most sent to you How often

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I've longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing

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Whether you apply this to the leaders of Jerusalem to the people as a whole The fact is he said I ardently desired to gather your your people together

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And it didn't happen why because of sin and disobedience on the part of the leaders and the people

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How about this from the book of Isaiah beginning in verse 17 of chapter 48? Thus said the

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Lord your Redeemer the Holy One of Israel I the Lord I'm your God instructing you for your own benefit guiding you in the way.

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You should go if Only you would keep my commands. This is God expressing ardent desire.

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This is his wish If only you would keep my commands Then your prosperity would be like a river your triumph like the waves of the sea

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Your offspring would be as many as the sand and it goes on You say well then why didn't God just make it happen because that's not the way he created the universe and that's not the way our

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Sovereign God chose to do it In fact look at this in Deuteronomy the fifth chapter

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God speaks these words after the giving of the Ten Commandments again by Moses If only it would really be their desire to fear me and obey all my commandments in the future

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So that it may go well with them and their descendants forever How can anyone say that was not

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God's desire for his people in the nation? two well -known Calvinist scholars

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Ned Stonehouse and John Murray addressed some of these passages that were somewhat troubling to Calvinism in a book called the free author of the of the gospel and This is what they concluded

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We have found that God himself Expresses an ardent desire for the fulfillment of certain things which he has not decreed and his inscrutable counsel to come to pass

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This means that there is a will to the realization of what he is not decreed of Lee will a pleasure toward that which he has

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Not been pleased to decree Which they said is indeed mysterious I think it's fairly basis

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God does not ordain to come to pass everything that he desires in every human life and the scriptures make that abundantly clear if I bow down to the witness of Scripture then my theology has to be adjusted to fit to that You want the summary of the biblical message over and over and over God says

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I was willing you were not Isaiah 65 I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me

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I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me I said he named he named he here I am here

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I am to a nation that was not called by my name. I spread out my hands giving an offer I spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people

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You say but no one can reject his will of course people can There are things that God has determined to carry out that he will carry out and ultimately his plan

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To have a people in his son who will glorify him forever that will come to pass in fallible

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That's what he has ordained to come to pass but individual choices along the way can be rejected

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Luke chapter 7 verse 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves not having been baptized by John The word for purpose there is the

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Greek boule which is the same word used in Ephesians 1 11 that says that God Works out everything according to to his purposes

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Number five Jesus then comes into the world as the full expression of the father and Sheds his blood for the entire world meaning he shed his blood to pay for the sins of every human being and thereby

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Secured the salvation of those who put their trust in him you may be worn out with hearing

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John 3 16 But it's a glorious truth For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son and whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life and if You'll study

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John Carefully cosmos is used speaking often frequently for the inhabited world for all human beings and Jesus in John 17 verses 6 and 9 makes clear that the world refers to everybody

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Because he's praying for his people who he takes out of the world Not for the world as a whole in that passage and yet John says he died for the world

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That's what's written in 1st John 2 that if any man sin We have an advocate with the

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Father Jesus Christ the righteous and he's the propitiation For our sins and not for ours only but also for those of the entire world

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Paul echoes this in 1st Timothy 2 saying that God desires all to be saved and that Jesus is a ransom for all in 1st

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Timothy 4 10 Paul says that God is the Savior of all people Especially of those who believe

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Titus 2 11 says the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for all people Hebrews 2 9 says that by the grace of God Jesus might taste death for everyone

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Please tell me how it could have been said more specifically than everyone all people and the world and not just us

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But the whole world That's reflected in 2nd Peter chapter 2 verse 1 that speaks of people false teachers denying the master who bought them

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Master being a word used for the Lord in Revelation 6 10 and And the verb used for bought is the identical verb used in 1st

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Corinthians 6 20 you are bought with a price Here Paul expressed his heart when he was with King Agrippa and Agrippa said it's such a short time you're gonna get me to become a

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Christian and Paul said whether short or long I would to God that not only you but also all who hear me this day might become such

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As I am except these chains. I desire that all of you would be followers of Jesus Was he expressing

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God's heart or not? That's why he could preach in Acts 17 30 God commands all men everywhere to repent

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He commands all men everywhere to repent because Jesus died for all men everywhere

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Jesus died for the world for everyone for all God commands all people everywhere to repent and thus to all who receive him

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Supernaturally born of God. It's all grace. It's all God's work All we can do is receive his gracious offer faith is not a work

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Paul tells us in Romans the fourth chapter What when the rope is thrown into the burning house and we can't possibly save ourselves

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And the only thing we don't do is push the rope away and accept the help No one in their right mind dreams of boasting and I took the rod took the rope when they took the rope

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No, it's everyone else that gets the praise for the rescue That's why the gospel invitation is completely genuine to all people

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Not requiring any theological distinctions between an alleged revealed will and secret will allowing us to say with certainty that God means what he says and allowing us to answer in the affirmative if a lost sinner s

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So you're telling me Jesus died for me and I can receive forgiveness as a gift Yes, we can look him in the eye and tell him.

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Yes That's why Paul preached this in Acts 1338.

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Let it be known therefore to you brothers all the Jews in the synagogue I'm speaking to that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to do all of you.

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It's proclaimed to all of you number six This is what our amazing sovereign

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God does Before the foundation of the world He determines that he will get a people for himself who will love and serve him and be with him forever chosen and elected his

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Son trophies of his grace and he carries us out in the midst of a sinning rebelling world

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That's what's written in Ephesians the first chapter that speaks of us being chosen and predestined in Jesus before the foundation of the world that's what's written in Romans the eighth chapter verses 29 and 30 as God determines to take for himself a people and destined those people in his son to be glorified

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That's what's written in 1st Peter the first chapter verses 1 and 2 that says we are elected according to the foreknowledge of God A .W.

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Tozer had this observation God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice.

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We're talking about a sovereign God a king This is how he chose to set it up God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil

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When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God But fulfills it in as much as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make

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But that he should be free to make it if in his absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom who is there to stay his hand or say what doest thou?

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Man's will is free because God is sovereign a God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon his creatures

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He'd be afraid to do so When he speaks of moral freedom limited freedom, it means simply the freedom to receive

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God's grace To borrow a phrase from dr. White This is the potter's freedom to make that choice and he's determined to interact with his people in conjunction with choices we make

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According to a W pink Calvinist scholar a God whose will is resisted whose designs are frustrated whose purposes checkmate it

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Possesses no title the deity and so far from being a fit object of worship merits not but contempt

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But think of the greatness of a God who designs and purposes

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Come to pass despite human sin and satanic activity in fact whatever the flesh and devil mean for it for evil

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God can turn for good so in keeping with his perfect character he confirms rebellious unbelievers in the rebellion and unbelief and Shows himself to be just in judging them

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But he gives grace to the humble who put their trust in him and there's no room for boasting Since it's all of grace by faith and because faith is not a work therefore we glory in the

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Lord alone I'm sure if we study Scripture long enough that we will confront many mysteries

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If I'm working on a commentary on Job now and the one thing I'm convinced of is that there's not just one correct interpretation to the book

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But remember Deuteronomy 29 29 the secret things belong to the Lord our

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God How he does what he does behind the scenes if it's not revealed in Scripture the secret things belong to the

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Lord our God That which is open and revealed belongs to us and to our children to do all the words of this law

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Let me just leave you with some closing words of Scripture here This is why the invitation is so universal because God's love is universal

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Because Jesus dying on the cross Sets forth that universal love and opens the door to every human being so that everyone is without excuse before him

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That's why the invitation says this in Revelation 22 17 the spirit and the bride say come and Let the one who hears say come a genuine invitation from the throne of God and let the one who is thirsty come let the one who desires take the water of life without price and Even to those who've been cut off in judgment

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Like my Jewish people so much of my nation cut off in judgment No longer attached to the olive tree.

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What does Paul say in Romans? 11 that if they do not continue in unbelief in other words if they turn back in faith

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They can be grafted into God has the power to graft them in and when you get to the end of the marvelous discussion in Romans 9 10 11 a text

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I'd love to dig into more along with John 6 and other key texts if they come up which I assume they will

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How does Paul sum up God's dealing? Why has God brought hardness here judgment here?

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What's his purpose Romans 11 32 for God has consigned all to disobedience that he may have?

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mercy on all With that I rest my case. Thank you all right

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Well it is indeed a privilege to be with you all this evening. It is certainly a privilege to be with dr.

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Brown this evening, and I want to simply reiterate what he was saying this is an in -house debate

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This is a debate where we are going to the Word of God as our final authority We stand together in defense of the faith and in doing so we have to Seek unity and the only way for us to seek unity is not by some

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Ecclesiastical decree, but instead to go to the Word of God and that is what we are doing this evening

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We come as fellow believers We come as firm confessors the Trinity the deity of our

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Lord and Master his substitutionary work his resurrection And his return dr.

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Brown and I have defended the deity of Christ against Unitarians for example And that is something as joyous to do

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But it's because we have that joy in defending these things that we have to Take the time this evening to be on the opposite end of this most important debate

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We believe in salvation by grace through faith alone and the absolute necessity of repentance and holiness

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That is something that separates us from some who would call themselves Evangelicals and we also believe in the sufficiency of Scripture as our final and only infallible rule of faith.

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I Too want to go to the scriptures this evening I'd like you to think if you'd like to turn your Bibles to Isaiah chapter 10

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I'm going to be there for a few moments actually so you might actually have time to turn there more really debate

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You don't even bother you just write it down, but if you want to turn to Isaiah chapter 10 Let me remind you of the contents of that chapter

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God has said that he will bring the Assyrians against his people to punish them in Isaiah chapter 10 while at the same time

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Saying that he will punish the Assyrians because of the intentions of their hearts

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So he has one action in mind he's bringing the Assyrians against the people to punish them in line with the blessings and cursings that came in the law in Deuteronomy and then

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Because of the attitudes of the heart the mind of the Assyrian king he will then punish the

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Assyrians for what they did Some people say that's unfair God has one thing in mind.

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He has one holy intention in mind and yet he then Punishes the instrument that he used by which to bring about his own purpose

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That's very interesting This theme of God's sovereignty coinciding perfectly with his justice in judging mankind based upon the intentions of the heart is found throughout scripture culminating in the greatest act of God's redemptive love and the greatest act of human evil that was the crucifixion of the sinless son of God there

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We are told in Acts 4 27 to 28 that the gathered group of men remember Herod Pilate the

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Jews the Romans all Sorts of different intentions and different purposes and yet they were all

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Sinfully guilty before God for their actions yet. What did the early church confess in its prayer?

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They did exactly what God's hand and God's purpose predestined to occur now back in Isaiah 10 after announcing the punishment of the king of Assyria's arrogant heart a new promise is given a

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Remnant a Shahar a Lima in the Greek language chosen by grace

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Romans 11 5 Will return not may return not

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God's looking down the quarters at times as oh, but look a remnant returns No, God is saying a remnant will return and it's a remnant chosen by grace

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It's God who reserves for himself the 7 ,000 who have not bowed the knee to bail

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It's not because they were better than somebody else. God has reserved a people for himself

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This is not a prophecy. It's a promise Very very important to see that Paul uses the term kata lipo there in Romans 11 5

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Which in its substantival form is the term for remnant used even here in Isaiah 10 in the

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Greek Septuagint Now here is God's active sovereign grace saving the

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Shahar the remnant God will do this just as he will raise up all those he gives to his son

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Jesus Here is powerful sovereignty divine promise it's unquestionable, but note that in the midst of the promise is the corollary truth look at the verse toward the end there a

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Destruction is determined overflowing with righteousness

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Did you see that a? Destruction is determined Overflowing with righteousness punishment is fixed.

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It will happen But is with all of God's actions he has a purpose to fulfill

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He's not merely responding to us. He has a purpose to fulfill his punishment is overflowing with righteousness

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What a concept that is It troubles a lot of folks God's punishment overflowing with righteousness

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The question I have to ask us is do we have the same? Priorities that God says we should have in Romans 9 22.

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There's a phrase What if God was willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known?

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I just have to ask each one of us this evening. Is that a priority for us? When we think of God is the demonstration of God's wrath and the demonstration of God's power one of our priorities

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If God did that in my life Would I glorify him for that or I only glorify him when he gives me good things and comfort and ease?

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Do we pray for all of God's attributes to be expressed? Is that something we desire?

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Do we allow God and our thoughts and desires to demonstrate all of his glorious attributes from his great mercy love and grace all the

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Way through to his holiness power and wrath You see in Isaiah 10 we see the balance that we must hold firmly to tonight

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God's sovereign purposes and the demonstration of his holiness his power his justice and wrath against sin

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Together with his sovereign gracious purpose to redeem a remnant chosen according to grace

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Here then in one text we have together the two truths that we must hold together in which

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I assert over against dr Brown's position this evening the two truths are these number one the eternal decree of the king

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Whereby the triune God has ordained the self -glorification of the Godhead in creation and final redemption they're providing a glorious demonstration of all the divine attributes in their fullness that's number one the divine decree and number two the prescriptive will of God Enshrined in his law, which reveals his holy purposes for those who seek to follow after him

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It was this prescriptive will the people of Israel had flaunted bringing the curses of Deuteronomy 29 upon them

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And it is that prescriptive will even found in the hearts of the Gentiles Due to the

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Imago Dei the image of God within them that the Assyrians likewise Violated bringing

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God's just judgment upon them even as he used them to punish

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Israel our debate this evening must be focused right here for this is the foundation of all of our differences

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Michael just said he is not an open theist He has said he is not a Molinist as far as I can tell he would fall into the simple for knowledge view

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Exemplified by David Hunt that's not Dave Hunt by the way David Hunt in the 2001

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IVP work on the subject of differing views of for knowledge so two things the divine decree of God and the prescriptive will of God I affirm both of them as Necessary to anyone who hears all of Scripture for example.

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We know the texts psalm 135 6 Whatever Yahweh pleases he does in heaven and in earth in the seas and in all deeps whatever he pleases

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Well, if it's his pleasure to save every person, well, then he can save every person Could God be a universalist could universalism be true.

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There are some people who say no Open theists would say no There are certain Molinists who say no

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God could not save every person if he desired to do so I affirm He could not that he would not that he has chosen

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He's going to do so, but if God chose to do so he certainly has the power to do so Even a pagan

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King understood this in Daniel chapter 4 when Nebuchadnezzar at the end of his period of loss of sanity

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Says but the end of that period I Nebuchadnezzar raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me and I blessed the most

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High and praised and honored him who lives forever for his dominion is an everlasting dominion and his kingdom endures from generation to generation

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All of the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing But he does according to his will in the host of heaven and boy everybody's happy about that, but he didn't stop there and Among the inhabitants of earth and no one can ward off his hand or say to him.

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What have you done? The sovereignty of God that is reflected in Scripture is not limited to well

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He has a final purpose at the end and he'll get there somehow. That's true I'm glad we can affirm that together

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But it's much more extensive than that and Nebuchadnezzar understood it Nebuchadnezzar understood that he

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Fulfills all his will not only in the host of heaven, but among the inhabitants of the earth as well was

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Nebuchadnezzar wrong in the 33rd Psalm We have that wonderful text

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Where again the original language makes this even more clear than we really can almost in in English But in describing

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God's sovereign creatorship, it says for he spoke and it was done He commanded and it stood fast and because he's the creator

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Yahweh Nullifies the council of the nations. He frustrates the plans of the peoples

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But the council of Yahweh stands forever the plans of his heart from generation to generation notice the contrast

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God nullifies the council of nations. He frustrates the plans of people, but can anyone nullify his counsel?

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Can anyone frustrate his plans? Well, if the plan of his heart is that every single person is going to be saved then well

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He's been frustrated hasn't he if he's trying to save every single person equally if he was trying to save Pharaoh and the

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Egyptian soldiers equally with the Israelites He failed

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What about the Amorite high priest? That the children of Israel were told to destroy man woman child and beast

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Why not even send him a prophet Trying to save them all equally doesn't sound that way. In fact, it's interesting

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The reason I'm going second this evening is because we asked Simon to flip a coin Proverbs 16 33 says the lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from Yahweh Is it a chance that I'm going well, some people would say yes

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It doesn't seem that the biblical writers agreed now think about the prophecies Think about and this is this is one of the areas where where Mike and I are right on the same page

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Think of all the prophecies Look at Isaiah 53 look at Psalm 22.

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Look at the incredible fulfillments in the life of Jesus Could they have happened at some other point in time?

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think of all the tens of thousands hundreds of thousands literally millions of Freewill choices of human beings that were required to bring about the exact person

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Herod the exact person pilot the exact Scribes and Pharisees and high priests and Roman soldiers that were supposed to be there at that point in time

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God's not in control of all that He's just sort of doing the best he can to make good come out of evil and just sort of piecing things together as he

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Goes along. I don't think so. These are all a part of his creative act

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The central act of God's self -glorification redemption in Jesus Christ involving the incarnation the crucifixion resurrection is

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Regularly described in Scripture as the result of God's ordination God's predestination and God's sovereignty

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In Ephesians 1 we are told that God has chosen an attorney not merely a nameless Faceless group to be filled in by men's good pleasure.

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The beauty of Ephesians 1 is that the choices there are personal We can sing that song my name is was written upon his hand that means it was personal

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That means it was substitutionary in his atonement for the individual not just for a group

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But a personal for knowing an election of individuals who together according to Ephesians 1

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Form the body of the elect all according to grace So real was this truth in Paul's mind that he could say that he endured all things

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Think of all the suffering all the betrayals all the heartaches the shipwrecks all the long hours and toiling work

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And what does Paul say he endures all this for the sake of the elect? 2nd

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Timothy 2 10 the fact that God has a divine decree is plainly stated in numerous places

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In Yahweh's examination the false gods and Isaiah 40 to 48 notice Especially this text our time doesn't allow examination of all of them, but notice especially this text and Isaiah 41 21 through 24

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Present your case Yahweh says bring forward your strong arguments the King of Jacob says let them bring forth and declare to us

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What is going to take place? He's challenging the false gods. Tell us about the future as For the former events declare what they were that we may consider them and know their outcome or announce to us

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What is coming declare the things that are going to come afterward that we may know that you were gods Then it gets downright sarcastic indeed do good or evil that we may anxiously look about us and fear together

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You hold you are of no account and your work amounts to nothing he who chooses you is to eva an abomination

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Now when God challenges the false gods to prove that they're true gods the tests

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He gives them tell us something about the true God and the true God can tell you the future How does he know the future?

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How does God know the future when God created did he did he when he created?

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Did he know what was going to happen when he created now Michael says yes

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He has exhaustive divine foreknowledge of all events, but when he created Did he choose for all those events to take place if God knew there was going to be evil the question is did he have?

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A purpose for it not could he make something good come out of it if he creates a world where evil exists

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Does he have a purpose for it or not? Or is he now responding to what he created to try to make something good come out of it

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Then why did he create it that way? I Say to you the reason God knows the future is because he is eternal and he's not observing things

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God didn't learn and go wow look What happens I win glorify me? That's not that's not divine sovereignty, and I'm not saying

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I don't think that's what he believes either But why does God know the future? Because when

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God created he created the entire fabric of time itself and all the events therein

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That's how he weaves it together into this intricate pattern that is According to his purpose and his grace in all things and that's why he can say the false gods

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Tell us what happened as for the former events declare what they were well any historian can tell you what happened in the past right?

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But notice this that we may consider them and know their outcome There's many times a historian has to admit.

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I can tell you what happened. I have no idea why? But God says I can tell you why doesn't mean he's gonna tell us in this life

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Many of us sitting here tonight have many questions for God Why this why that why did this happen to me?

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Why this happened to my wife or my child? But it is greatly comforting to me to know what the true.

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God says I can tell you why it happened It's not enough to say I'll make something good come out of it

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The challenge of Isaiah 41 is tell us why it happened that means there's a purpose

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There is no such thing as purposeless evil in this world

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But we must here turn to the reality confessed by every reformed confession of the prescriptive will of God Which is expressed throughout the pages of Scripture and Michael has done a wonderful job in Showing us the prescriptive will of God tonight

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There is almost nothing in all the passages They said that even begins to cause me any problem at all some of the interpretations of some of the text

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But the idea that God sends prophets and he extends his arm. This is something that we have believed all along It's expressed throughout the pages of Scripture right alongside these texts which plainly teach

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God's sovereignty over all things Including the hearts minds and wills of his creatures men

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God's prescriptive will revealed in his law is the guide and light loved by every devoted worshiper of God It expresses his nature and is reflective of his ultimate goodness but his prescriptive will is not just coldly stated in tablets of law or stone and Here in my view my friends is the heart of the debate

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God has chosen in his eternal degree to enter into relationship with his creatures

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He does not sacrifice his eternity in so doing nor does he become subject to time or chance

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But his providence which is the outworking of his eternal decree in time has to take a form meaningful to those with whom he establishes a covenantal relationship and So he interacts with man and from our time -bound perspective seems to experience change and alteration

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Such as in grieving the judgment of man in Noah's day or in bargaining with Abraham Regarding Sodom or in working with Moses as the leader of the children of Israel and causing him to have to intercede for them more than once We would be wrong to take these time bound

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Interactions and extend them out as to deny that God has a purpose from the beginning that he was accomplishing in perfection

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The greatest example of this is the kind of condescension seen in the incarnation itself the eternal one becoming tired and sleeping in the back of the boats an amazing contradiction and impossibility

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Some of our opponents say some of the people that Michael and I debate debate, but we say no it's amazing love amazing condescension, but not contradiction and So we embrace we confess and love all the texts that Michael brought up regarding God calling people to repentance stretching out his arms

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Patiently sending prophets and extending mercy to the unmerciful There is no contradiction

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God has willed to express these aspects of his character just as in Isaiah chapter 10

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He chose to express his might and power in judging the majority But saving a remnant according to sovereign and free grace

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We have to confess the one as well as the other

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The problem arises I believe when we limit God to human categories In essence, we dare not do away with the dichotomy that exists due to God's creative act

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That is God is eternal and yet he has been pleased in his creative decree to interact with us

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Certainly and infallibly in time Only by saying well God's intentions and actions must be limited as mine are do we create a problem?

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in fact a contradiction are we really willing to say God created a world in which he knew evil and suffering would exist and Yet he did so only with the vague purpose of bringing some kind of general good out of some of that evil.

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I Believe when God created the very fabric of time the very fabric of space

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He did so in accordance with his own wise counsel so as to bring about the glorification of the

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Divine Trinity It was God's intention to express his power To express his holiness his justice his love his mercy and his grace all

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Exactly as he chose and this he is doing though. We will not see the glory of the final consummation of all things until Eternity itself

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But do not miss the real issue here if we deny the decree of God We must confess that while God promises to bring

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Good out of some evil the fact is God created a world in which there is a tremendous amount of purposeless

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Evil out of which good is never brought. What is more God cannot bring?

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Specific good to pass out of evil because he's dependent upon the actions of evil creatures to provide the basis of his own responses

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This leads to insuperable difficulties in how Michael or anyone else can actually ground

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True interaction of an eternal being with time -bound creatures Without falling into either open theism or some form of Molinism The open theist solves this by saying

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God does not know the actions of time -bound creatures of free moral creatures He he knows what's gonna happen in the natural world

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But he doesn't know what free moral creatures are gonna do and that's why the future is open The Molinus says well

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God has this special middle knowledge what any creature will do in any given situation Even before he decrees to create them

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Which led William Lane Craig to say well God's got a deal with the cards He's been dealt to which I go. I want to know if the

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God who dealt in the cards So we got two gods out there somehow and yet he then examines all these possible worlds and comes up with a possibility based upon Upon that and actuates that universe

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Now Michael as far as I know is not embracing either one of those he's saying yes God knows all things certainly in the future but there is no divine decree that fixed the shape of that future and So God will accomplish his ultimate goal

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But the path to getting there was not fixed by his decree It was not fixed by his intention when he created this world that fundamentally is the difference between us

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Yes, we differ on issues relating to atonement and things like that that we've debated in the past, but to me

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The issue this evening for every one of us but for Michael and I especially and hopefully bring you along for the conversation

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What about these texts that say God? Accomplishes all his desire is

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God trying to save every single person equally Many people would say well, of course

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And if you believe that I simply have to ask the question then why are you praying about somebody? You expect a hundred and five percent effort

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You see I pray Because I'm changed by the prayer. I Want to be used by God as the instrument the means

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To bring the gospel to that person, but I'm not trying to convince God to be better than he is Is there such a thing as purposeless evil when

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Joseph came to understand that it was God's intention That he be sold into slavery in Egypt.

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I wonder when he figured that out. How many years in prison did it take? But he came to understand it.

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He came to recognize that in that one act evil Intentions in the part of his brothers, even though God had to restrain him from killing him anyways, but evil intentions on their heart

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Good intention on God's part and what was the outcome to save many people alive today?

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Now could God have gotten Joseph in the Egypt some other way will have even chosen to do so But God chose to get

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Joseph into Egypt that particular way to save many people alive Can God do that and still hold men accountable

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Genesis 50 Isaiah 10 acts 4 all say yes, not only can he but that's exactly how he does it

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That is the question that's before us this evening. I thank you for being here to consider it with us.

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Thank you very much All right for those of you that might have wondered how come dr.

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White didn't refute points I made it because we both gave opening statements and we are serious debaters and we play by the rules

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So this is the rebuttal time. So first sir. Thank you for quoting all the verses

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I didn't have an opportunity to quote because I love everyone and affirm everyone and was saying amen to every verse quoted and Hold to the truth of every one of those verses.

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It's the interpretation of those verses which I'll show you is Faulty and with all esteem and respect for my dear colleague, which is truly from the heart

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I actually had a pray last night to focus adequately on a serious debate because of the depth of our camaraderie and the joy

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We've had of standing together against heresy and error But I didn't have to pray that much it came fairly easily.

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I Propose that the God dr. White is presenting to us is not sovereign enough and not wise enough and not

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All -powerful and all -knowing enough so that the only way he can get his desired results is by pre -programming them.

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I Look at a God who's much more sovereign in terms of what he accomplishes first.

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Let me say absolutely, I affirm God's judgment and his righteous judgment and the fact that all human beings are without excuse and Anyone who prays your kingdom come is praying for the fiery return of Jesus to take vengeance on those who don't know

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God And I've preached on the staggering wrath of God and written about it and often talked about it on the radio as a missing truth

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From from the body today again, we affirm that but let's just think through a number of the specific things.

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We were told Acts 4 yes, Herod Pilate the people accomplished what

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God had planned out in advance Namely the crucifixion of Jesus and acts 2 tells us that God used wicked people to accomplish it

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God didn't use Joseph of Arimathea to crucify him. God didn't use Mary Miriam the mother of Jesus to crucify him

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God is sovereign enough to have things arranged and planned to get his desired results while people are still making free choices

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That's a sovereign God Yes, God reserves the people for himself, but it's not random.

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It's not arbitrary It's not a throwing of divine dice in that sense

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So in 1st Kings 19 God says yeah, there's 7 ,000 who haven't bowed the knee to Baal in other words

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There's a remnant preserved by grace and that's a remnant who is humble and seek him There's no mystery as to who it is.

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We're told throughout the word and Fundamentally, even when we look at Romans 9 10 and 11

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Yes Paul is dealing with the scoffer who's going to challenge God God can do what he wants if God chose to damn all of us

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He can do it. He's God and for us to protest in a scoffing way that mouth is going to be silenced

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But let's remember the conclusion of Romans 9 10 and 11 that God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all

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You see a fundamental issue here is that I Explicitly and strategically quoted texts that did not just speak of God's prescriptive will his prescriptive

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Will is do not commit adultery his prescriptive will is do not steal

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These are things he commands and tells us I gave texts that describe what

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God desires and who he is That he did not say I am simply sending a prophet to call you to repent

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He's saying I desire that you repent you say why didn't he ordain it because that's not what he set up What he set up was a world

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Which would have a purpose for evil that would have a purpose for all of the things that would ultimately happen

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Many of which we won't understand until eternity, but he set it up in that way because that's what he ordained

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You say but how do you know that he didn't ordain all the wicked and evil because he explicitly says he didn't

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Because he explicitly renounces it That's why I quoted Jeremiah the seventh chapter when when the children of Israel and Judah were burning their babies to Molech He didn't say what you're doing is sin

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But I ordained it and I am behind it and I set it up before the foundation of the world that you'd be doing it

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No, he said I absolutely renounced this. This is absolutely nothing I ever planned for you when he says it never came to mind open theists think he means he didn't know it would come to mind

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Of course, that's nonsense. Of course, he knew it and a new human nature, of course And of course, he inhabits eternity

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Isaiah 57 15 time itself is something created So, of course, God knows the beginning from the end all things.

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There's no mystery to that It may be mysterious for us to get our minds around it, but it's not mysterious for God But the fact is he utterly renounces it when he says it never came to mind means that's the last thing

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I ever planned for you And the universe that dr. White holds to it and please correct me if I'm if I'm wrong on Understanding what you believe or overstating it or misstating it

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Instead of God grieving over the rape and Torture slow torture death of a little child who's then buried alive and no one's ever going to know about it until the judgment seat of Christ Instead of God grieving over it and saying

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I never intended that that is absolutely contrary to my will Dr. White said God ordained it when he created the universe

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He ordained and his decree that someone would do that and he takes glory in that one way or another

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I say the scriptures are categorically against that. Yes. He does what he pleases. But what does he please?

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That's what's laid out That's why I quoted these many verses and God's sovereignty is not just that he will get some general good

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But that every day he will be glorified every day He will be accomplishing his will in the midst of human sin and disobedience

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Every day, he will be moving towards his ultimate plan of having this people and it's not faceless

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It's not nameless and faceless because he foresees each of us He foresees each and every one that would put their trust in his son

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And there's really no mystery when you look at passage after passage after passage when Paul talks about election

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He tells you over and over how one is elect by faith and those who believe are commended and those who do not believe are

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Condemned again, it's very very simple. James says we cannot limit

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God to human categories Well, if you mean make him into a man or make him powerless or he's sitting there in heaven wishing

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Wish I was God or something. No, no, we utterly reject that We categorically reject it.

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In fact because I believe in a sovereign God. I was very happy for there to be a coin toss In fact,

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I took Psalm 37 for as my verse delight thyself in the Lord They'll give you the desires of the heart and the King James.

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I want it to go first and I freely chose his suggestion

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I Feel agreed to it actually But but in all seriousness

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We're not reducing God's human categories We're saying that he has revealed himself a certain way that Jesus said if you've seen the father you've seen me

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That the prophets when they express God's heart were clearly articulating who he is

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That that when there are times in the prophets You can't tell where the prophet begins and God ends and God ends and the prophet begins because of the interchange of heart

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There are even times when God is yearning for more tears to weep over his wayward people you say well

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Why did God create it like that? Because he knew that that was the only way he could get the end result he desired

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He knew that this was the ultimate way to accomplish his purpose not by somehow pre programming it.

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Dr White does not believe we're robots. I don't want to overstate it. I'm trying to say it carefully God did not set things up by pre programming everything

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But by creating a world with parameters with certain freedoms and in the midst of it our sovereign wise amazing

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God accomplishes his will and as this person here at this time in this person here at this time without forcing people every single day to just do what he's programmed them to do as As for God working in prayer.

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It's not just we who change God ordained it that he works with his people and that if we pray there are certain results and if we don't pray there are not certain results and That's why often it's bemoaned that the people didn't pray

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That's why God tells Jeremiah at a certain point judgment must come Because of the sins of Manasseh because of all the wickedness he did because of the sin of this generation

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Judgment must come so don't pray don't intercede Jeremiah 7 Jeremiah 14 elsewhere. Don't pray don't intercede if prayer is just about changing me

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Why does God sometimes say don't pray? No prayer is the way God set it up because we are fellow workers isn't that what

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Paul writes to the Corinthians We are fellow workers. That's the way he set it up Is it his sovereign plan to save every single human being no?

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It is sovereign plan to demonstrate his love to every single human being and to have his son pay for the sins of every

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Single human being so that forgiveness can truly be offered and to secure the eternal salvation of those who put their trust in him

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What about Joseph in slavery? Let's think of this People did evil

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God never said I made the brothers do this. Did he restrain them from doing more? Yes But he didn't make them do evil.

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He didn't program them to do evil They chose to do evil God our sovereign King used that to get

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Joseph into Egypt you say well didn't he have other ways ah But he's working in the midst of this world and through this

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Joseph changes, too Through what happens to Joseph he's changed through this we learn lessons of faith in other words.

01:00:02

It's a multi -faceted Fabric and tapestry of the dealings of God I Think back to the famous illustration that Corrie ten

01:00:11

Boom used where she held up a tapestry In fact I use this when

01:00:17

I debated dr. Bart Ehrman I'd encourage you to get the DVD of our two -hour debate Does the

01:00:22

Bible provide an adequate answer to the problem of suffering and I sought to use a similar physical illustration?

01:00:28

But you look at a tapestry from the back. It's just threads and things hanging out It looks like a total mess.

01:00:34

That's often how things look to us You turn it around and God's planning the whole thing out.

01:00:39

There's a beautiful picture, so I see God at work mightily I see our sovereign

01:00:44

God orchestrating things I live in in Passion and burning fire before God jealous to see his work, but with absolute peace and confidence

01:00:54

In fact if Nancy and I are talking about something, and it's it's stressful and pressure sometimes

01:01:00

I'll say to her you know honey I'm really worried and we burst out laughing because she never hears those words because I don't think like that Worry is foreign to me fear is foreign to me why because God is

01:01:10

God and I rest in that in revelant But I rest in revel of the God of Scripture as he has revealed himself, and I would say this in closing

01:01:19

That the text that dr. White read all worked perfectly well with the text that I read and the interpretation that I gave

01:01:27

However you must reinterpret Contrary to Scripture many of the texts I read to make them fit with the thesis dr.

01:01:34

White is putting forward at the end of the night. We will major on where we agree on our commonality right now

01:01:40

Let us outline the differences Thank you. Oh my brother.

01:01:57

You're so close to the kingdom. I Don't know if any of the rest of you just noticed but We just said a lot of the same things just now for example,

01:02:13

I use the tapestry illustration all the time It's one of my favorite illustrations of the fact that God is has a perfect plan in fact

01:02:22

Michael just talked about God has a sovereign plan and in God's sovereign plan is

01:02:29

His plan not to save every person So God's sovereign plan goes against his desire because he is trying to save every person that sort of sounds a little bit like my saying he has a

01:02:42

Divine decree that he is accomplishing and he has a prescriptive will the same. It's the same differentiation

01:02:48

And we just just heard it from dr. Brown. So it sounds like the difference is

01:02:54

Let's try to make sure we understand exactly what they are first of all God grieving

01:03:00

God grieving What did I warn us against? limiting God to human categories of experience

01:03:09

What does it mean for God to grieve? Do we want to say that God has eternally determined his own unhappiness

01:03:19

Well, for example If you want to say well God wants to save everybody and he tries to save everybody equally but he's gonna fail with a certain number of people and Therefore he's going to be eternally unhappy because he's set the same kind of love upon everybody.

01:03:38

I Can anyone read the Old Testament that way Can anyone read the

01:03:43

Old Testament as if as if the same? Redemptive love is expressed for the Amorite high priest that is destroyed by the armies of Israel as upon Joshua When we talk about God grieving

01:03:56

Don't limit his Experience and his interaction with his universe to what we would experience

01:04:03

Because when I grieve it's because I don't have the power to do anything about it. I Didn't have the power to make things better God does so be careful when we use that kind of illustration and Michael just said well, you know

01:04:19

That group the elect. That's not a nameless faceless group as I said Because he foresees who's gonna believe well, then

01:04:27

I ask a simple question Then how can his desire for the one he knows will never accept him be identical to the one he knows

01:04:36

Well, does that make any sense? Think about these things.

01:04:41

I'm just simply asking for application. It's really what I've wanted my brother to doing all along We said in his opening statement if he calls us to repent he enables us to repent

01:04:52

He calls everyone to repent Acts chapter 17 God commands men everywhere to repent

01:04:58

Does that mean that he enables what does that enablement mean? What's the nature of this enabling is a is it a partial regeneration?

01:05:05

Romans chapter 8 says those who according to spirit can not do what is pleasing before God is repentance pleasing toward God You better believe it is so you cannot be according the flesh do what's pleasing to God Regeneration has to come first.

01:05:17

So is everyone regenerated? Of course not So if he commands men everywhere to repent Then he must regenerate everyone to fulfill the statement if he calls us to repent he enables us to repent

01:05:27

That's some kind of general prevenient grace, I guess but that concept simply isn't biblical and it simply does not work there was a

01:05:35

I'm gonna ask maybe during cross -examination it sounded like Romans chapter 2 verse 13 through 14 was quoted as If it were possible for anyone to seek after doing what is good and seek after doing what is righteous

01:05:46

And then that become something to do with their with their justification I didn't understand the application of Romans 2 at that point

01:05:52

So I'm gonna seek some at some some clarification of that at some point in the future because Paul's point is no one does this

01:05:59

The the the catena of passages in Romans chapter 3 verses 1 through 10 Concludes with the idea that everyone stands before God and everyone stands before God condemned

01:06:09

At one point Michael said God delights to show mercy. We believe that But mercy to be mercy must be free

01:06:20

It cannot be demanded. It cannot you cannot say well God has to treat everyone the same

01:06:27

God if if God were the the governor of this state and he were to free someone from prison

01:06:33

He were to pardon him. He'd have to pardon everybody if he pardons one. It's got a pardon everybody because you got to be

01:06:38

Fair right mercy is not a category of fairness Mercy transcends those categories and if mercy is to be free

01:06:47

That's the only way mercy can be mercy. It must be free. We need to understand that now

01:06:53

Romans chapter 11 He has shut up all understand that he might have mercy to all the

01:06:59

Greek term is the exact same term That's used in Romans chapter 9. And if you're going to say that the all there is every single human being then put that together the

01:07:08

Romans chapter 9 and Paul's message and I don't know if Michael's ever had the opportunity or the challenge to debate a universalist.

01:07:16

That's their argument He will be merciful to all he will mercy all and all will be saved

01:07:23

He's not a universalist neither am I so you have to do something with either the meaning of mercy Which we don't want to do that or your understanding of all and that's already been introduced in Romans chapter 5

01:07:33

When when Paul introduced those who are in Adam and those who are in Christ We're all in Adam all we can get from Adam is death those who are in Christ receive from him

01:07:42

What is life that's the explanation for that text? Romans Acts chapter 4 and Acts chapter 2

01:07:49

God had an eternal purpose. Let me just ask Could the people involved in those actions have done otherwise?

01:07:59

Now Michael would say no God knew what they were gonna do, but could they have done otherwise? No, that would have been falsified his foreknowledge

01:08:05

So when he created by knowing everything is to happen the future does he not fix all actions in time?

01:08:12

That's the point of open theism folks. I believe open theism is the only consistent

01:08:17

Arminianism Because if you take the position and thank God he has to I know him too

01:08:24

Well, I love the man He has to take this position because he knows the Bible teaches it But if you take the position that God knows the future perfectly

01:08:31

Then you've got to deal with this issue that I'm pressing this evening. How does he know that?

01:08:38

Could Cyrus for example have not let the people of Israel go Let's say Cyrus got up the morning

01:08:44

He was going to give the decree to let the people of Israel go and he gets out of his kingly bed and he puts His bare foot down and he steps upon a little toy that one of the little princes had left in the bedroom the kingly bedroom not like kids would ever leave their toys out and He looks at it and discovers.

01:09:02

It was made by one of those terrible Jewish people and so he decides you know what? I'm not gonna let him go could that have happened?

01:09:08

The open theist says yep, and then God would have had to change everything destroys all basis of prophecy

01:09:14

Destroys all of Isaiah it destroys the scriptures, but what does it mean? Does it mean simply

01:09:20

God passively look down the corridors of time and saw what's gonna happen learned or he had a purpose?

01:09:27

I don't see another way. I Don't see some third option here either

01:09:32

He created with a purpose for that action Which was to fulfill his holy will in all things as we've seen the scripture state more than one

01:09:39

Or he created and then looked down the corridors of time and said oh look. Here's what happened. I'll now work with that.

01:09:45

Which is it? That's what we have to ask ourselves this evening The 7 ,000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal I'm concerned about this and it's another area that we need some clarification on was

01:09:59

Could it have been six thousand nine hundred ninety nine? Could have been seven thousand and one I Asked because what was the criteria in?

01:10:10

Some previous encounters we've had it sounded to me like what Mike was saying and he said some things night Sounded to me like well.

01:10:15

They were Torah observers and and things like that and therefore God kept them I Say if you're a

01:10:21

Torah observer in that day, it's because God has already kept you. It's an act of grace

01:10:27

But could it have been could God have wanted 9 ,000 but all he get was seven that's a question

01:10:34

We have to ask ourselves. I think God reserved for himself 7 ,000 a remnant according chosen the term is chosen in in Romans chapter 11 by grace

01:10:47

Just now Michael said, you know, that sovereignty is not a big enough sovereignty because his God's forcing people to do things

01:10:54

No, my God is normally keeping people from doing things ask a bimilic

01:11:01

God kept a bimilic from sinning Genesis chapter 20 tells us God kept a bimilic from sinning

01:11:08

If God can keep a bimilic from sinning Can't he keep everybody from sinning and if he doesn't must not have a purpose for doing that Joseph's brothers wanted to kill him.

01:11:18

God said nope ain't doing that. Well, that's their free will. Nope ain't doing that He kept them and in fact right now aren't you glad that God is restraining the evil of men

01:11:30

Because if God was not restraining the evil of men we could never have gotten here tonight And we wouldn't be safe in here and none of us would probably be alive

01:11:37

God is restraining the evil of men He is not taking some morally good person and sticking a gun in their back

01:11:43

It's not like the brothers of Joseph were like, oh, we just love Joseph. You can't do that. Go sell him into slavery

01:11:49

I don't want to go. No, that's not what he's doing he's not making him do they're not doing something they don't want to do and Yet they're still judged for acting on the intentions of their hearts, but not the intentions.

01:12:03

God wouldn't let him do In fact God kept them from doing things He would have had to have judged them for That sounds like mercy and grace doesn't because remember every one of us is a fallen son or daughter of Adam God could take us out of existence like that and he would be righteous in doing so he would be righteous in doing so And so the idea is not that these individuals are being forced to do something that they didn't want to do

01:12:27

We have both just said that the vision we have is Of this beautiful tapestry and from the bottom you can't necessarily all see how things fit together for but from the top

01:12:38

We're gonna see how it all fits together. So somehow we're getting to the same point The question is when

01:12:44

God created the universe in eternity past Did he already have the design

01:12:53

Fully laid out or is it something he's sort of haven't been taken. I have had to take some detours along the way.

01:13:00

I Want I wanted to have yellow and orange there, but people didn't do the yellow and orange axe

01:13:05

So I've got green they're still pretty but it's different. Is that what it is? I believe that God's sovereignty because it allows man to act in creaturely freedom and Yet allows

01:13:20

God to accomplish all his holy will in exactly the way he chooses to do so is the only sovereignty that actually answers all of the questions and so once again, both of us are gonna stand before you and say

01:13:32

I believe every verse that he quoted and I can exegete every verse that he brought up and he can execute a reverse you brought up and we can have an exegesis war

01:13:42

But it comes down to a foundational issue The relationship of God and time and his creation, that's what we're here about this evening.

01:13:51

Thank you Phase right now what this means is that Dr.

01:14:07

Brown will go first and we'll have five minutes to query. Dr. White So it'll be a little bit of free back and back and forth and then in five minutes

01:14:16

I'll they don't already do this on their own I'll cut them off and then let the direction of questioning come from dr.

01:14:22

White back to dr. Brown and we'll go back and forth for the next 20 minutes All right, and because we are respectful gentlemen,

01:14:30

I will not give a four minute fifty nine second question Nor will he give a four minute fifty nine second answer

01:14:36

So let's just start on a practical level in terms of election predestination I'm a hundred percent sure that I'm a child of God.

01:14:44

My sins are forgiven if I was to die right now I'd be in his presence. I assume you feel the same

01:14:49

Therefore since you know that on electing predestined Can you say that you know that it is absolutely impossible for you to ever fall away?

01:14:56

Well, you're confusing I think creaturely categories of knowledge and divine category categories of knowledge I would take infallibility infallible knowledge as a divine category so in the sense that this

01:15:06

Holy Spirit testifies to me of my sonship as Certain as a person can be at that point given our human

01:15:14

Limitation yes But I differentiate between any kind of making my certainty the same kind of level of certainty that we have in scripture

01:15:20

So then I have as a non -Calvinist a greater assurance than I don't believe Well, what it says we could know and the

01:15:26

John says I write these things that you can know So, you know, you have eternal life. Well again, but you could be deceived possibly remember what first John chapter 5 says well

01:15:33

The fact is Mike you and I are both old enough now to know many people who used to stand with us in the church And who made those statements to us and they thought we believed him and they fell away

01:15:42

Yes, and so my theology allows for that because so does mine They went out from us so they may that might be shown they were not truly of us, right?

01:15:49

Some that's the case Those are the ones that are being described and that's why there's warning after warning don't harden your heart exactly

01:15:54

And and we are made partakers if we continue to the end so we agree on perseverance exactly

01:15:59

So you're saying you're sure but not not God 100 % sure. I'm not divine So I have to recognize that as far as the

01:16:07

Holy Spirit testifies to my heart Yes, and that's and in first John 5 by the way, it says that you may know

01:16:13

What I wrote these things to you What were those things that you love the brethren that you walk in light, right? So we have the fruit of it.

01:16:19

So therefore the warnings the warnings are real to you. Yes, they are. Okay, fine Fine, that's that's important.

01:16:24

All right Do you agree with the statement of Calvin that I read

01:16:30

God arranges all things by his sovereign counsel in such a way that Individuals are born who were doomed from the womb to certain death and are to glorify him by their destruction.

01:16:37

I do Okay, so if there's a mom here say with her kids she's seeking to raise them in the faith

01:16:42

It's possible that God could have preordained before he created the world that she will give birth to a child

01:16:47

That will be apostate no matter Prayer raising him no matter what she does that child will be apostate and will glorify

01:16:53

God By going to hell the fact the matter is that child is born I just had my first grandchild that child was born as a fallen son or daughter of Adam and the very fact that death

01:17:02

Could possibly stock that young child is evidence that they are already under the wrath of God and fallen in that in that state

01:17:09

So to say well, it's possible that person could be quote -unquote one of the reprobate

01:17:14

That's not the term you use but I'll utilize the more specific term David discovered that people have discovered that all down to the down through history

01:17:23

So God God ordained that and that mother should rejoice then that God has given potentially given her if that child dies

01:17:28

In sin and rebellion that she therefore says God you preordain that the child you gave me was going to burn forever in hell to your

01:17:35

Glory, and that was my role what she rejoices in is the goodness of God that has saved her and has given her mercy and Rejoiced in the fact that if she has any child that has in fact turned that God by his grace had changed their heart

01:17:50

But shouldn't she rejoice in everything God predetermined? I mean certainly we can't be selective and that's what God predetermined

01:17:56

Rejoice in it and thank God that their child that she bore was predestined for hell But certainly Michael the you see that the recognition of the question the foundation of the question you're asking

01:18:05

Destroys the distinction of not only God's Word But our experience of God's Word that is by saying that you're to rejoice in all things.

01:18:11

Obviously my rejoicing in say Persecution that comes to me is different than my rejoicing in other aspects of my life

01:18:22

In the proper sense that for example, not just that mercy came to others, but that damnation came to her child

01:18:27

She should rejoice in the justice of God in all aspects Which includes the fact that she has been given life and forgiveness and God predetermined that she would give birth to a repudiate child

01:18:38

She should rejoice in that also because that's everything God does is good. There's nothing God does that's bad Everything God does is good

01:18:44

So that's what he does I should also rejoice in the rape of that child because God ordained it and whatever

01:18:50

God ordained again Again, you're you're changing the categories of what rejoicing means I don't think when

01:18:55

Paul says Rejoice in all things that he's he's saying that I should when I stub my toe.

01:19:00

I just grab and go Oh, praise God. Oh, praise God. That's that's that's that's a ridiculous kind of ridiculous, but ultimately ultimately in the death room in the room where death has taken place our

01:19:14

Final solace is only that God's will will be done when you and I can't know what the outcome is

01:19:20

God's will will be done. That is our solace and that is our ground of rejoicing. Yes All right, so I'll I'll continue on the other side of our five minutes here

01:19:32

Okay, let's see if we could get some some clarification on a couple of those points that were brought up before From from your perspective was was

01:19:40

Romans is Romans chapter 2 giving us a way that a person Could be made right with God or is it just is you not see 13 to 14 as theoretical?

01:19:48

It's possible to see this theoretical It's certainly a matter of major debate The the issue is though that if those first ones are recipients of grace

01:19:56

God has helped them to do the right thing and that's why they're doing it. They'll be rewarded for it In other words throughout scripture.

01:20:02

We are to demonstrate our faith by our works by our deeds by a changed life So it doesn't talk about the origin of that.

01:20:08

It's not saying someone is righteous because they worked hard enough This is the the reflection of their obedience to God and they're living it out.

01:20:15

So it could be theoretical It could also be the demonstration of one who's living in obedience the other who's not and it's not that God Predetermined one of the other it's that this is the expression of their faith or lack thereof

01:20:25

Does God give grace to every single person equally to follow after him? That can be circumstantial.

01:20:32

In other words, does God desire equally that everyone follows after him? Yes, I believe the answer is does he give the same opportunity?

01:20:40

There are conditions of heart. There are responses There are a thousand and one things God doesn't tell us In other words, I think one of the bigger differences between us is if I see a text that says

01:20:49

XYZ God does this I'm not trying to figure out how it works or how God could know this. I'm just embracing what the text says

01:20:55

So it doesn't I'm not saying you're denying the text I'm simply saying the philosophical questions when you asked me if I was a

01:21:01

Molinist I had to look it up because I'd never used the term before All right, because it's not an insult, but it's just an area to say

01:21:07

I see God expressing his mercy He mercies all through the cross and then he works with different hearts and lives

01:21:14

He knows where to draw one and why one and not another Well, let me expand a little bit upon that because I think it's an important difference between us when you say

01:21:23

You're just trying to work with the text and seemingly implying that some somebody else in the room isn't I'm not sure who it might be but Isn't it true that this is not the first time this conversation has been had?

01:21:36

Surely this conversation has been going on for Thousands of years, right?

01:21:42

Sure. So isn't it? Isn't it probable? In fact, isn't it absolutely certain that you have governing presuppositions theologically whether you identify them with a particular camp or not

01:21:53

Aren't they there? Yeah, of course Okay So can't we examine them more clearly when we can identify them and see how people have have discussed these things?

01:22:04

Then just simply saying I'm not going to get so let me explain my presupposition is if God does not give me access to certain

01:22:11

Information I shouldn't try to pry and figure it out I should I don't have to ever figure out how he knows certain things in advance

01:22:18

All right I don't have to it doesn't tell me to Simply tells me in Scripture to bow down and worship him as God and to rest in that assurance and then to take its face

01:22:26

Value the other statement, so I don't I don't find the contradiction I don't find the struggle with how God can foreknow without foreordaining

01:22:33

I know you say the only logical Arminian ism is an open theism That's your logical conclusion as I look at the text

01:22:39

God inhabiting eternity. He's not time bound to me He's not just trying to figure out what's going to happen here and then write and fix this because he transcends all of that So so it's mixing categories of eternity and time to me that I don't see scripture mixing

01:22:52

It sound like you were just saying though We can't actually answer the question as to how God knows the future outside of simply stating.

01:23:00

Well, he's somehow Transcends time Isaiah 57 15 shocking on he inhabits eternity since time is something created and we know scientists tell us it's created

01:23:12

It started at a certain point even science knows that right? So he inhabits eternity. Therefore he transcends time

01:23:18

I think I think it's a biblical proposition Okay, so so the Bible is clear enough to tell us about God's relationship to time but we can't answer the question of when he created and He knew what was going to happen in time

01:23:33

How he knew that? No, we can't because Bible the Bible doesn't tell us it does tell us so that he did not ordain everything that happens

01:23:39

How about does tell us how about the text in Isaiah 41? How can God challenge the false gods?

01:23:47

To not only tell us what's gonna happen the future But also tell us what happened in the past that we may consider them and know their outcome

01:23:54

How can he challenge the false gods to do that if from his own perspective He didn't know the outcome of those things because there was no purpose in he didn't know the outcome who said he didn't that That's I'm not trying to be obtuse.

01:24:06

I honestly don't Follow the question or conclusion. Of course, he knew the conclusion. He knew the purpose

01:24:12

He knew all of it and and he decided to create a world where there would be certain freedoms

01:24:18

Because for God to accomplish his will there had to be certain freedoms given so it would not be a world of automatons

01:24:23

For example, when you when you were just jokingly talking about Joseph and his brothers, right that they weren't God wasn't forcing them to do something

01:24:30

But they were doing what they were predestined to do. They were doing what God made them to do. All right my turn

01:24:36

Yes, write that down. We're all right.

01:24:41

Here we go Okay If salvation has nothing whatsoever to do with us

01:24:50

It's not based on our response or anything in us In other words God didn't know that right God did not foreknow that I would believe or that you would humble yourself

01:24:58

So salvation is purely based on God's sovereign choice and nothing that he saw in he saw this in James He saw this in Michael so he saved us, but he didn't see the same thing in someone else

01:25:09

It's all about unconditional election, right? Unconditional election is not based upon force Why isn't that somewhat of a divine flip of the coin if it's based on nothing in any human being it could have just as well

01:25:20

In someone else and in that sense is the equivalent to a flip of the coin

01:25:25

Well, I don't believe that an eternal being can flip a coin first of all Can you build a coin too big to flip?

01:25:32

Oh, well, there's a good question What does what does? I've proven my points

01:25:40

But the question is what does flipping mean in eternity that's we can go a long ways here with this but Have my point my point is an ultimate being cannot do anything that is arbitrary

01:25:54

That's my first point. All right Secondly, we are told what the basis of God's choice is in Ephesians chapter 1

01:26:00

According to the kind intention of his will not our will but it wasn't so God's will it was

01:26:07

God's will freely to create Could God have not created I don't know

01:26:12

But it was his will to freely create and what he tells us in Scripture is that he's chosen to do so in such a

01:26:18

Way that it's all according to the good pleasure of his will So that's not a that's not a flip of the coin

01:26:23

But it certainly shows that God is free when it comes mercy and grace has to be free He did not have to mercy me because that was somehow better than somebody else

01:26:32

But there's no injustice then because he create he created everyone without them asking to be created created them all damnable

01:26:40

Right. In other words, he created us in such a way that the only possible destiny for all of us was damnation No, let's he chose to have mercy on so no,

01:26:47

I think that that's a misrepresentation of the position we take we believe in federal headship we fell in Adam and so just as Just as it is right for God to credit or impute the righteousness of Christ to us

01:27:02

Without quote -unquote asking us it was right for God to include us in Adam Just as it was right for Achan to be stone

01:27:09

But when he pre but when he created the human race, he created us with a specific decree that we would all be fallen

01:27:16

Well, but Adam was created. You got to remember that. Okay, so Adam said the falls not something is just simply an ancillary thing

01:27:22

I understand that but but it was by God's decree and plan So in that sense he created a race that would be a damned race

01:27:29

So he could have mercy on time falls in Adam and that he treats right so he right that's what he decreed Created a race that would be a damned race so he could have mercy on some and that somehow is a sign of goodness

01:27:39

Yes Okay. All right, because can I can I expand upon? Yeah, please because that is what brings about the very parameters and foundation of the incarnation itself

01:27:50

This is the very means by which God demonstrates his mercy and grace which by the way transcend categories of mere justice

01:27:56

Is that he enters into that human race is treated horribly by them?

01:28:02

restrains his power and doesn't destroy them and gives his life voluntarily as the means by which all of his elect people joined to him will

01:28:09

Have eternal life, but you understand with my understanding of the story that grace expressed to the cross is just as great and amazing

01:28:15

But come back to this then someone hears the scriptures quoted. Yes It's great and amazing, but I think we do need to talk about the specificity of it

01:28:23

Okay, that's that's fine. It comes to each of us specifically in the knowledge that Jesus died for me specifically

01:28:29

Was actually no greater for me as a Calvinist than Arminian because I had received such a revelation of God's goodness and love

01:28:35

But let me go to my last question because I've just got a minute here Someone hears John 3 16 quoted all these other verses quoted.

01:28:41

They they hear Paul in the synagogue brothers I'm preaching to the forgiveness of sins through the Messiah and they think of Isaiah 53 6

01:28:49

Kulana cut so until you know Each of our code funny that we've all turned away and and God's laid on him the iniquity of all of us, right?

01:28:55

Paul you're saying the Messiah died for my sins. You're saying the Messiah died for the sins of Israel died for my sins

01:29:01

Is that what you're saying? I can receive forgiveness through him What do you tell that person which which Paul would say I'm saying the

01:29:07

Messiah died for everyone who will put faith in him They will find him to be a perfect Savior He will never lose any of them because they turn in repentance and faith toward him but I don't find anywhere and I would challenge you to show me anywhere in the pages or Pages of Scripture or whatever you call it electronically pages of Scripture where he said to someone

01:29:25

You do this because Christ died for you if you can show that to me. No one's ever been able to show that to me

01:29:31

Yeah, well the confession in Isaiah 53 6 though all of us have sinned right? But who says that the nation speaking confessing that hang on all of us have sinned

01:29:40

God's laid on him the iniquity of all of us But I'll save your challenge for my closing statement. Okay. All right

01:29:46

All right. I've got to go back to What you said you said something and I just I it was the whole debate standing right there

01:29:54

You made the statements the coin flip thing. No about about his purpose

01:30:00

You specifically use the term his purpose in the very same way that I have used the phrase his decree

01:30:08

You use that phrase you're there brother just to step over the line. It's right here

01:30:15

But seriously, I've been home We're both we're both at home right now and we're having an argument in the front room.

01:30:22

Can we can we agree? Yes Yes, we've chosen to do that. All right But here's here's the question

01:30:29

And God has granted you the grace brother. So anyway, we could do this all night we

01:30:35

Could travel around the country and do the Armenian Calvinist show, but here's the question When we talk about his purpose does he have a specific purpose in?

01:30:48

the salvation of an individual person Let me make the general application

01:30:53

You said that he knows who is going to the terminology used was in your rebuttal.

01:30:59

He says It's not a nameless faceless because he foresees who's gonna believe in him, right?

01:31:05

Mm -hmm. Okay You say Christ dies that person even though God foresees that he's ever gonna believe right?

01:31:12

Yes. Okay That's not how he has mercy on all exactly Okay So he's had mercy on all by actually removing the penalty due to their sin

01:31:20

Paying for it and if they'll receive it, it's removed. In other words, the debt has been paid. Will it be received or not?

01:31:25

Okay So when they don't then Jesus pays the penalty and then they pay the same penalty the second time they were they rejected

01:31:32

They suffer for rejecting they suffer for rejecting him. They suffer for rejecting God's mercy So the only thing people are in hell for in the future is for rejecting

01:31:41

Jesus not for their own sin No, they're all the payment for their sins has been rejected But the payment was paid by Jesus yes, if received

01:31:50

Actualized by faith. It's actualized. Okay, but his wrath fell upon Jesus What is the purpose of the wrath that's going to fall upon the person in hell because that wrath has already been spent on Jesus Well, the greatest sin they've committed is rejecting

01:32:01

God's mercy is expressed in the cross So unbelief is not taken care of in the cross Unbelief if rejected in here.

01:32:08

I mean we could go around on that one But let me go back to this phrase. He used his purpose. Yeah Does God what is

01:32:15

God's purpose? For every person in light of his foreknowledge that there are going to be some who are going to accept and some who are not

01:32:23

Okay, very simply God desired to create a world All right

01:32:28

A world in which in his foreknowledge knew would involve suffering pain sin all of which would bring a glorious outcome

01:32:35

All right It's first thing second thing it required certain freedom of human beings So that is

01:32:40

CS Lewis said there wouldn't be a world of automatons and as I would say that love is not Coerced you wouldn't use the word course, but but I'm I'm using that word

01:32:48

So he creates this world in which he will now have a people who when offered mercy and grace will freely receive it

01:32:55

Did he predetermined the number of that people? No, did he predetermined that that you and I will get in and these three will not get in No, he predetermined that there would be a company of people and he foresaw exactly who they would be

01:33:08

Okay, so he foresaw who they would be So from the point of creation there can be no fewer or no no more than what he foresaw

01:33:17

He foresaw based on what would happen. Yes, because so the number is fixed from eternity.

01:33:22

No It's it's foreknown. See that's where again. I did he come to know that after no not not when he created

01:33:30

He knew what the outcome would be right and within that it was based on free choices. That's our sovereign

01:33:36

God Okay, I understand that but the point is and I think I think I think everybody's hearing the point This is where I think open theism is the consistent

01:33:44

Arminianism because you just said God foreknew exactly how many we're gonna be saved.

01:33:49

Yes, but not from eternity So he learned that at some point he foreknew it from eternity, but he didn't predetermine the results

01:33:57

Okay, so there are things that exist. I mean, it's very so they're Because it's so I'm not

01:34:02

I'm not missing it. I'm believe me Okay, but there are things that exist that are not a part of God's creative decree then

01:34:10

His creative decree is one the way you're defining it. I see nowhere in Scripture where God Decreed that all the following events will happen and people will make all the following choices and these will be in heaven

01:34:20

These will be in hell I've seen no such decree referred to anywhere in Scripture on any level that to me isn't as a reading something into the text

01:34:27

Beyond when he decrees is gonna act with justice and mercy and so on but when God decreed

01:34:33

Did he when did he gain knowledge of who would be saved? from eternity

01:34:40

Okay. Thank you. You're welcome First of all, let me thank you all for being here this evening.

01:35:15

I hope it has been useful to you. I I think as best as I can

01:35:21

I have tried to focus upon what I see is the foundational issue and that is the relationship of God as creator to his universe and whether God has a purpose in everything that flowed from his creative hand or Whether God has created in such a way that the form and fabric of what he created was determined by some other force but he

01:35:47

Still has sort of an end goal in mind that he accomplishes and and it seems to me that we've somewhat been told that well, you really can't know all that you're going beyond what the

01:35:58

Bible actually says and That's why I press the text from Isaiah Where God says

01:36:05

I can tell you what happened in the past and why it happened Michael says yes, he can do that.

01:36:11

But my point is he can only do that after The creation itself

01:36:17

Because it's the actions in time that determine those outcomes and that may to some people in the audience be man

01:36:25

You people you people got me in here to listen to you to picking at knits No, it's not really picking at knits

01:36:32

Because I hope all of you have seen here this evening That I have the greatest respect for this man.

01:36:40

He's written the best book on homosexuality in print right now He and I are gonna have to stand side -by -side in This culture unless God grants repentance because my goodness neither one of us could have ever seen the way things have changed in the speed

01:36:55

They've gone I'm stopping the timer for a moment here

01:37:11

Try to say something nice about a guy and what does he do demonstrates? He has a radio program. That's the problem there.

01:37:20

I Hope you have seen That I do view this as an in -house debate There are some

01:37:26

I reform brethren who think I'm a wimp for doing that and there's a lot of my reform brother I think I'm crazy for actually liking this man and vice versa.

01:37:34

I would imagine But I hope you heard this evening and I hope you will see on Saturday evening.

01:37:41

We can join together we can defend the Trinity and the deity of Christ, but I Truly want to have unity with my brothers and sisters and especially

01:37:52

This man on these issues and I think we understand each other a whole lot better than when we first started on his program

01:37:58

That's for sure, but I want to challenge him and I want to challenge all of you.

01:38:04

I'm an apologist. I Take this message into a lot of different contexts.

01:38:10

I Had the opportunity of debating in the East London Mosque in September four days after Benghazi. Oh It's the largest mosque in Europe, I Never thought

01:38:20

I'd have that type of opportunity When I go into a place like that Michael might be suggesting that I I try a little bit too hard to systematize

01:38:30

God I would suggest to you that when we look at all of what scripture says there are certain aspects of God's character

01:38:38

It's funny. We go to the same verse The secret things belong to Lord our God the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever

01:38:45

We have to allow God to be God Each one of us is saying I'm saying to Michael Michael I I don't think you're dealing with my texts in their context and he's saying to me

01:38:55

I don't think that you can execute the ones I gave and yet I hope that I've laid out for you exactly how it is

01:39:02

God can Stretch out his hand and in his prescriptive will engage with his people

01:39:09

Seen so beautifully and in its fullness in the incarnation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ That is an amazing thing that God has chosen to do that but even in the midst of all that as we saw in Isaiah chapter 10, what does he say a

01:39:23

Destruction is determined one overflowing with righteousness But a remnant will return and I don't believe

01:39:31

God knew that because he looked down the corridors of time. I Believe he knew that because he decreed it from eternity for his own purposes

01:39:39

But does that mean that remnant? Did not feel the work of the Spirit within them causing them to love

01:39:45

God and to follow after him just as we feel the Spirit of God causing us to do that tonight.

01:39:50

No You see they go together. And the question is are we going to allow all of scripture to speak?

01:39:58

Or are we gonna have a system we push on top of it now Mike has said you've got your system James Well, I said

01:40:03

Mike so do you? mine has a name we can examine it all of us do and All of us have to pray

01:40:11

Lord Show me in light of your word what your truth is. Thank you so much for being here this evening.

01:40:16

God bless you Yes, the the esteem from the heart is mutual

01:40:29

Just my joy to write an endorsement for dr. White's book about Islam when

01:40:35

I was debating some Catholic friends on the air a year or so ago about the worship of Mary Mary olatree

01:40:44

I Shot a note to James and he recommended a book and I pulled all kinds of quotes out of that for it

01:40:51

So we really are co -workers And even though I was joking about having to pray and to to to get focused for a serious debate

01:40:59

I'm quite serious that up until late last night as I just kept thinking over the weeks what

01:41:04

I want to say or write out We're both busy running at a hundred miles an hour. I thought wait, wait, wait Wait, I've got to really make this sharp and clear because the goal of the night is not just to show our camaraderie

01:41:14

That's got to underlie things, but we need to highlight differences and and I would say ultimately it comes down to this

01:41:22

On a practical level. You don't need to worry about the questions. Dr. White's asking They they are ultimately theoretical and don't affect your witness to your next -door neighbor or your witness to someone else rather than saying

01:41:38

Perhaps they are elect and Jesus died for them. I don't know but I'll share the gospel with everyone I have the confidence that Jesus shed his blood for every single person and in the most honest way nothing disingenuous at all

01:41:50

I can tell that person that if they'll turn to God God will have mercy why because Jesus died for them

01:41:56

I know it when I can say God commands all men everywhere to repent I know it's not just a few in the midst of it that he will enable to repent

01:42:04

And and think of it if someone says so if I repent and put my trust in Jesus, I'll be saved Ultimately the answer is well if you do it, then we'll know but if not

01:42:13

Perhaps not because Jesus didn't really die for you. So even though I'm telling you to put your faith in him He may not have even died for you

01:42:20

Now, I know you say well, that's the way you're looking at it I'm simply saying if you're gonna start to think through all these issues you can get hung up if you simply say

01:42:27

God so loved the world and preached the gospel to all and Seek to go to the ends of the earth as James is an evangelist and so am

01:42:34

I and and we're involved in missions But for me it gets a whole lot more simple when we lay it out like that and You know, even when we look at a text like a

01:42:45

Bimelech in Genesis the 20th chapter Where it says that God kept him from sinning why it says because I saw you did it out of a blameless heart

01:42:54

In other words, there are things that God's looking at it 2nd Chronicles 16 9 His eyes are going throughout the whole earth that he might show himself in strong support of those whose hearts are wholly his he didn't

01:43:03

Just program it in advance He's looking he's looking and there are choices that we can make that's part of what he endowed us with by his grace

01:43:14

And I think of his longing. I wish I could just reread all the verses I started with just to bathe you in the reality of God's longing

01:43:21

God's desire God's heart But but just listen to this on Luke 13 34

01:43:28

I'm quoting Calvinist scholars or friends of Calvinist Luke 13 34 in terms of God's heart appearing an author

01:43:36

William Perkins said this The thing which he will is namely the gathering of the Jews by the ministry of their prophets was begun in practice long

01:43:43

Before his incarnation whereas that I take it here is divine will is meant to the will of his Godhead Which is also the will of the

01:43:49

Father and the Holy Ghost Calvinist author Walter Chantry said Jesus is speaking to a people who are finally going to perish and he knows that he's pronouncing a curse on him on them yet in The midst of sentencing them

01:44:01

Jesus expresses his love of them and a desire that they would repent and believe He reminded these very people who would soon perish that they had been repeatedly

01:44:09

Invited to come to him and he says I would have gathered you but you were not willing

01:44:15

I think that's what we need to come away with here not speculating on how God knew what he knew and in all seriousness

01:44:22

Dr. White has read more philosophy and theology than I have we're both exegetes But I just don't come at those things to the degree

01:44:30

Philosophically and theologically that my colleague might and it's just a matter of training and background because we both agree

01:44:36

It's the word that determines things for me What we need to come away is is with a heart Recognizing the beating heart of God right now for a dying world

01:44:44

The beating heart of God that all would come to know him his grief and pain because people right now

01:44:51

Reject him and and the fact that he has called us to be ambassadors and to make him known and to cry out of his throne to save and to deliver and get a people for himself and Dr.

01:45:03

White and I will absolutely stand side by side Preaching the gospel and rejoicing in God's mercy forever and ever as trophies of his grace

01:45:10

I simply say there's a better way to approach it Let's start with the heart and love of God and then pour ourselves out for a dying world.

01:45:17

Thank you for coming so much And then we'll go back to do one for both of them

01:45:29

We'll just carry that out and probably go about a half an hour or until people start One of the other so the first question

01:45:38

It is to both of you and I'll ask dr. White if you'll address it first since I think it's probably more

01:45:45

Sort of geared towards him, but if we want both of them to take two minutes to talk about this the question that says

01:45:52

It seems that one one who leans away from Calvinism Must hold a mystery as to how

01:45:59

God can use the free acts of man to bring about God's ends But the

01:46:04

Calvinist must hold a mystery as to how God can directly decree evil acts and create humans for hell

01:46:12

Does it make more sense to lean against Calvinism since that mystery seems contrary to God's goodness in nature?

01:46:20

Well, I Don't agree with the get started. I don't agree with the foundation of the of the question to be perfectly honest with you

01:46:27

It's not a matter of leaning the issue is whether we are going to Fully embrace what the scripture says about God accomplishing his purposes in Evil actions of men and women and whether we're going to affirm that God created in such a way

01:46:44

That all that he created resounds to his glory or whether we're going to confirm that there is purposeless evil in this world so it's not a matter of leaning and to be perfectly honest with you,

01:46:55

I do not believe that the Arminian position or non reform position because I really think that Michael doesn't fit into a lot of the standard

01:47:04

Arminian categories actually He'd probably say the same thing, but the non reform position

01:47:09

I think very seriously has some major issues in regards to God's character.

01:47:15

I think if God creates and You see you know people like to well

01:47:21

Michael has brought up the rape of a little child or what happened with this fellow in California of what happened in in Connecticut you can come up with all sorts of horrible things

01:47:32

When you raise an issue like that The question I have I've been a hospital chaplain.

01:47:38

I've been in the emergency room. I've talked with the people in the ICU and Unfortunately one side seems to be distancing

01:47:47

God from that or saying well God will make something good come out of this and I'm saying God has

01:47:52

If I'm gonna look at someone said God has a purpose for the rest of your life But he didn't have a purpose in that I'm not consistent

01:47:59

There has to be a purpose in all of it for me to say it. There's going to be purpose in the future And so while it is easier to quote -unquote lean one direction

01:48:08

I think the results of leaning that direction are far more serious when you think through the ramifications of those things

01:48:17

Yeah, and actually I think it is a fair question And I do agree with the thought behind it and we go from what's clear to what's unclear

01:48:26

We go from what's seen and known to what's unseen and what's seen and known is that God?

01:48:31

Categorically systematically passionately distances himself from certain acts of human evil and His heart breaks over those things and it's inconsistent to think that his heart breaks over the specific things that he ordained furthermore the whole picture of God in Scripture is that of a

01:48:49

Redeemer and Then often what seems to be the plan B ends up being the best plan of all

01:48:55

I think though of Luke the 13th chapter Where there's a woman who's been crippled for 18 years and Jesus doesn't say that God Took pleasure in her being crippled for 18 years

01:49:08

He simply says Satan is bound this woman for 18 years And then Jesus comes to loose her and set her free in John the ninth chapter

01:49:17

When the question is asked who sinned this man or his parents that he was born blind with some Jewish theology

01:49:22

Apparently in that day pointing to the potential of someone sitting in the room and hence being born blind Jesus does not specifically say

01:49:29

God did this for a purpose for these many years He simply says this happened that the works of God might be made manifest

01:49:37

Again, the problem I would have with the Calvinistic approach is trying to fill in the blanks as to how and why as opposed to saying

01:49:44

That God is a Redeemer the the other other point is God categorically,

01:49:51

I want to re -emphasize this categorically distances himself from certain acts of human evil

01:49:56

And I could categorically say that God did not before the foundation of the world from my understanding of God in Scripture Decree the

01:50:05

Newtown Massacre and say I will be glorified in the slaughter of those children I say he was grieved over it

01:50:12

But part of the choice he made in creation was to have a world in which those things would be possible

01:50:18

Can it be glorified out of it? Absolutely All right.

01:50:23

This next question is for dr. White Take a couple of minutes chooses to give his answer and then we'll have dr.

01:50:30

Brown give a one -minute response. The question is If the atonement is particular rather than conditional

01:50:37

Is it the case that the elect have their penalty paid for them before they were born is so in virtue of what are they?

01:50:44

ever under the wrath Yeah, that's a very good question, but it's it's a biblically answered

01:50:52

We experience what God has provided for us in eternity in time We are time bound creatures.

01:50:58

And so yes in our union with Christ We die with him. That's the great confession of all every believer.

01:51:04

I have been crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I live Well, when was I crucified with Christ at the time of my conversion or was

01:51:10

I you not united with him in his death? The idea that we somehow unite ourselves to him

01:51:17

I think is doesn't make much sense, but we experience all this in time And so while God has decreed according to Ephesians chapter 1 that salvation that is ours

01:51:25

There is a point in time early in life for those who are really blessed Maybe later in life for others for God's purposes that they may go through those things so they can can be

01:51:35

Minister ministers unto others but at God's intent intended time the

01:51:41

Spirit of God brings spiritual life we are given the gifts of faith and repentance and We then experience that which

01:51:50

God intended from eternity past and procured for us not just in the sacrifice of Christ But even in all of his redemptive works that he did with the people of Israel before that which brings about the sacrifice of Christ So it is it's a category error to say that if we are all united with Christ in his death therefore that means that we have never been children of wrath or that we

01:52:13

Until our regeneration are somehow free from The penalty of sin or any of those types of things that is ignoring the fact that God can be eternal and we are in time

01:52:24

And therefore he decrees when in time we're going to experience that which he has decreed for us yeah, and my

01:52:31

Short response is that that actually answers a question that dr White was asking me earlier about if Jesus paid for the sins of human beings and they reject that Then what are they punished for?

01:52:43

Well in point of fact if we reject it if we don't receive it it is in effect as if it never happened for us

01:52:48

So Ephesians 2 tells us that we were objects of wrath before we were saved and John 336 says that the wrath of God abides on all who do not believe which

01:52:59

That was us at one point in our own lives So it was as if what Jesus had done on the cross had never happened in our lives because it had not yet been

01:53:06

Actualized so the person who rejects the cross rejects God's mercy It's as if their sins have not been paid for and they will have to pay for them themselves

01:53:15

This question is for dr. Brown If all of God's desires are not accomplished you mentioned

01:53:23

God's desire for all to be saved How can God be truly sovereign? Thanks for the question.

01:53:30

Perhaps I didn't explain things clearly enough God does not decree that everything that he desires comes to pass

01:53:38

Even Calvinist scholars Stonehouse and Murray that I quoted earlier made that Theological statement which to them was was a mystery

01:53:46

So I as a parent can desire a certain thing but not set up parameters to make sure that it happens

01:53:53

Because I have a greater desire with that that there will be freedom or people will learn through experience

01:53:59

I would rather that someone does not go through a certain bad experience, but I choose not to intervene to stop it

01:54:06

So there's no question that God's desires are clearly seen doesn't desire the death of the wicked

01:54:11

That his love is for the entire world and all of the passage that I quoted to that effect and yet he does not

01:54:19

Determine to save every single human being the Calvinist would say we agree on that correct

01:54:25

I would simply say that we cannot deny the depth of his desire the depth of his love if we're going to be

01:54:31

Honest with scripture, excuse me, that's too strong a word I don't want to apply dishonesty and be hard of count on behalf of Calvinistic friends

01:54:37

We cannot take with full seriousness the weight of the witness of God's love

01:54:43

For the world of his pain when people die and perish of the genuine grief that he experiences because of human sin

01:54:50

Yet he freely chose to create a world in which these things would happen He's sovereign and can do that But his desires are expressed in terms of his love and then the things that he does that's what he's actually going to carry out well,

01:55:04

I again have to point to the what seems to me to be a Contradiction in what was just stated that he is not determined to do something

01:55:11

But he desires to do something and yet I'm being told I can't have that in regards to the sovereign decree of God and the prescriptive will of God That seems to be somewhat of a contradiction and double standard at that point if God has

01:55:28

Determined not to save everyone then we have to ask did he have a purpose for that? When he created so he created the world in such a way that not everyone's going to be saved

01:55:38

But then he's going to spend his time trying to save everyone and that that's going to be expression of his desire

01:55:43

I don't see how that works when I talk about the prescriptive will of God I'm talking about that which represents his actual being his actual character and His decree is the purpose that he is going to work out in the lives of every single individual all

01:55:56

Nations, and we've looked at the text of scripture that specifically make those statements Which we don't really have time to go back over now at the end of this time

01:56:05

This question is for both and we'll start with dr. Brown What scripture passage supports your opponent's position the best?

01:56:16

It's it's actually in Maccabees. It's not in the Bible I'm gonna mention the

01:56:26

Book of Mormon actually Say Maccabees, or did

01:56:32

I say Quran? Oh because I think Quran teaches predestination I would say that the passage that seems to most forthrightly carry out a

01:56:45

Calvinist Interpretation if read from a certain angle and then seems to progress along the line that it's answering certain questions and objections

01:56:52

Would be Romans the ninth chapter If I had to pick one passage where I was going to argue dr.

01:56:58

White's position Although I think they're very simple answers to it I would probably take that passage and say that in my view that's the one that most strongly would support a

01:57:07

Calvinist viewpoint I think

01:57:12

I know it's tough for you If if by my opponent's position

01:57:19

We mean the heart of our discussion this evening if I could try to be specific and try to keep us on Somewhat of a track at that point.

01:57:28

I Would say it's just all the texts where God interacts with us in time so that you have maybe now

01:57:41

I know in the in the in the sacrifice of Isaac or Any of those texts where it seems you have

01:57:50

God expressing some kind of a Desire or lack of knowledge about future at least as far as you know, it never entered in my in my mind something like that I Would like to respond to them eventually, but that's probably my answer.

01:58:08

This question is for dr. White Is prayer efficacious in any significant way other than or outside of the personal edification of the one praying?

01:58:20

Oh my in two minutes What what do you mean by the personal edification of the one praying is that not

01:58:26

God's purpose to change each and every one of us And conform us the image of Christ What is the very purpose of the

01:58:31

Christian life but to grow on the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ? communion with the Father by the

01:58:36

Spirit in the name of the Son is Meant to change us so that our will

01:58:44

Becomes God's will that's what's so horrible about so much of the word faith teaching my opinion

01:58:49

Is that it takes our will and we somehow enforce that on God? So he does what we want him to do

01:58:55

The reality is in in true worship and prayer in Christian suffering and and true discipleship

01:59:02

Our wills are constantly being conformed to God's will So that the reason that our will is accomplished in prayer is because our will has been changed into his

01:59:11

So I just simply have to ask from if the question is being asked from our minion perspective

01:59:17

Let's let's put the shoe on the other foot Why are you praying if God's trying if God's doing his very best he's putting out a 100 % effort

01:59:26

Then what are you asking to do when you pray? He can't do anything more than he's already doing he's not going to violate the free will of that person like Lazarus And you know or a

01:59:39

Bimelech or the king of Syria anyways, he's not going to do that kind of thing And so why in the world are you praying?

01:59:44

I say I'm praying because God has commanded me to do so it is one of the primary ways by which he conforms me to his image and changes me and Reveals his will to me and and all the rest of these things, but I'm not trying to convince

02:00:00

God to be better Now I will intercede for someone and I will say oh

02:00:05

God You know break this person's heart or silence this false teacher like the psalmist did But I am expressing in those prayers hopefully what is a spirit born desire and spirit born request

02:00:18

Yeah, of course prayers efficacious absolutely scriptures quite explicit about it over and over and over and over in fact

02:00:24

It's presupposed throughout the whole Bible of course We're changed into his image as we pray of course our will submits to his as we pray of course all those things happen

02:00:33

But scripture is quite plain James the fourth chapter you have not because you asked not and then

02:00:39

You asked to consume things on your own lusts or James the fifth chapter about Elijah highlighting the efficacious power of prayer

02:00:48

God set it up like that there are certain things that don't happen because we don't pray it's true and there are things that do happen because we do pray and And the whole

02:00:59

Bible is full of stories like that church history is full of stories like that our own lives are we're not persuading God to be better.

02:01:04

He set it up that he works with us So so we go and share the good news with people because we are fellow workers

02:01:12

Through man came sin and destruction and the fall now Jesus works through us as his ambassadors to carry out his plan look at all the

02:01:21

Scriptures about prayer and ninety nine point nine percent of them We'll talk about praying so prayers can be answered not praying so that you can become more like the

02:01:29

Lord that happens every time we commune With him it should always be a goal All right this question is for dr.

02:01:36

Brown If you say Jesus died for all The grammar is a little parsed here

02:01:42

But I think we can still get the gist of the question if you say Jesus died for all and the chance we might believe

02:01:48

Then actually you are saying Jesus was not able to save us all is this correct.

02:01:54

Oh, no hundred percent false He's able to do whatever he decides to do and that's what he decided to do

02:02:00

Because that's how he set up the whole world and that's why throughout scripture he's calling us and holding us responsible when we refuse him and then beckoning us and Expressing his disappointment when we don't follow the verses that dr.

02:02:14

White mentioned Where God interacts with us in time do reflect his desire and his nature and must be taken seriously

02:02:21

I say the open theists take them too seriously by saying well We can't include

02:02:27

God's sovereignty in there and Calvinists don't take them seriously enough But by denying that there's somehow a reality in terms of what's being expressed and transacted

02:02:37

Jesus did not die for the sins of the world on the chance that people would believe he died so as to demonstrate

02:02:45

God's love to the entire world and to demonstrate God's mercy for all and to express

02:02:51

God's goodness and to render every human being without excuse and to Secure the salvation of those whom before all eternity he knew we believe in him so his purpose was absolutely certain and sure accomplished by showing mercy to all and Securing the salvation of those who believe there's nothing wishy -washy or or or possibly or hopefully

02:03:14

Or he's sitting up there. Oh, I really wanted her to come, but she won't

02:03:19

No, he is God with a broken heart for a sinning dying world and and especially a schling said anyone who loves as much as God loves must must hurt intensely.

02:03:31

That's a revelation We have of him throughout Scripture at the same time He is absolutely getting a people for himself by the way when

02:03:37

I said Open theists take verses too seriously That's the wrong way to say it they go beyond the witness of the whole scripture and what they say and I believe

02:03:46

Calvinists on those verses don't go far enough in terms of how they take them Well, you know

02:03:52

John 3 16 says it well God's love the world that he gave his only begotten Son that all the ones believing in him pass happest

02:03:59

You own everyone believing him John 3 16 actually contains within it that limitation God's demonstration of love for the world is not in some type of universal atonement because as Michael and I have discussed before if Christ dies as the sacrifice for every single individual then as the high priest he must intercede for every single individual on the basis of the sacrifice he is given and While Michael has said well his intercession is different for unbelievers

02:04:26

I don't see any evidence that the high priest ever interceded for someone differently than someone else the intercessory work that the holy one

02:04:34

Jesus Christ is Performing before the father this evening is for a specific people that God knows now

02:04:40

Michael says yes God knew who it was but that means that the Intention of God in the giving of his son is going to be perfectly harmonious with the work of the

02:04:48

Son upon the cross of Calvary This Question is for both Dr..

02:04:54

White respond first Can each of you explain? How do you understand God to have or not have emotions the impassibility of God is a?

02:05:06

Topic under discussion right now Generally the response of systematic theologians over the centuries has been to differentiate between the language that is used of God in regards to Anger in regards to wrath

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As being completely different pure and holy and separate from anything that could be attributed to a creature

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At the same time I think there is some propriety in some of the Arguments that have been made that in some forms of systematic theology

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Greek philosophy has become more of the concern than biblical terminology in biblical terminology

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We are specifically told of God's rejoicing. They're specifically told of God's sorrowing

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We are not to understand these as human emotions in the sense of some lack in God Or something that forces

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God to do things from outside As long as we emphasize that these flow from the accomplishment of his perfect Will that they do not demonstrate any type of deficiency in God That God isn't going to be eternally bummed

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As some people would like us to actually view God Then we can we can speak of these things.

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I think in a proper divine context But there needs to be balance because unfortunately let's face it.

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What's more likely? That we're going to form a God in our image Or going to overemphasize those aspects of God's character and being that are most unlike us the history of mankind and his idolatrous worship is that we tend to try to form him into our image and That is that is true of anyone and and that's why

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Idolatry is considered to be one of the great sin in the God's experience of man

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Yeah, I can be very quick here. I basically agree with what was stated I reject the idea of impassibility that there is no emotional life in God I see the scripture speaking with perfect clarity about sorrow grief joy and these various other things

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We are created in his image, and that's why we can ultimately relate to him as Alba And that's why we can pour our hearts out to him knowing

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That he understands these things and that the full expression is in the incarnation that Jesus has been touched with the feelings of our infirmities

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Yes, they are not human emotions. God's anger is perfect. He didn't lose his temper So so we need to be careful when we think of him like that and in that sense not create a

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God in our image And and I along with with dr. White deplore so much theology that's current in America today, which is all about me and where God's purpose is is to serve my dreams and goals and to Empower me and that comes from a deficient view of God On many many levels this being one of them this question is for dr.

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White How did how does Paul Helms ideas about time relate to predestination

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I'm sorry. I I don't claim to be an expert on Paul Helms views on time So I would not want to invest our time and trying to act like I do

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I'll look up who Paul Helms is later, and if you're talking about a and B theories and stuff

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I don't I don't this question is for dr.

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Brown What does it mean to say that God might quote grant repentance unquote according to 2nd

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Timothy 2 25 That's an excellent text and does it mean that repentance is?

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Irresistible it speaks of someone who apparently is bound by Satan and Timothy is now told to instruct that person patiently with the hope that God might grant them repentance

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There is a light that can come to a person at a certain time if we just want to look at this

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Completely a natural terms put aside theology for a moment where someone gets to a breaking point

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Where someone is now willing to take a step that they weren't willing to take we see that can happen in the natural

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Well God sees these things in the natural in the spiritual and can bring a person to a point where even though They've been blind and hard that they have that opportunity

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That they have that ability then to turn away from it now. It doesn't guarantee that they will it's not efficacious

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But I would absolutely say that human beings bound by sin do not have the power to change themselves

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They need God's gracious help. That's why we pray for people That's why we preach the gospel which contains the power of God to salvation and that's one some level

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There is what dr. White mentioned in our minions hold to Provenient grace where Jesus dying on the cross is drawing people to himself

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But the granting of repentance there is someone who's bound Who was unable to get free and we hope through patient teaching of the word and prayer for that individual that God might grant them repentance with the hope then that they will turn but is it

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Mandatory that they turn is the granting of repentance a guarantee that they turn you could read the text like that But you certainly don't have to and many other texts would say that God can grant the opportunity can grant repentance can grant faith

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That does not mean that we necessarily respond to it properly Well, I think that it does very clearly indicate that repentance and faith both are gifts given by God It has been granted to us not only to believe in him, but to suffer for his name

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Philippians 129 What does that mean if if repentance and faith is actually within the capacity of every single individual now?

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Michael might say well, it's not but the question is if God grant grants this prevenient grace.

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Why is the grant people? He doesn't he knows they're not going to be saved The same same reason why does he put the sins of people?

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He knows they're not gonna be saved upon some upon Christ when he knows that's a worthless action

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He is making his son suffer for someone who will never be saved. This is why open theism is the consistent

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Arminian ism It really is And so, you know as Paul said in Romans chapter 8 those who according to flesh cannot do what is pleasing to God Repentance and faith are pleasing to God what then has to happen that spiritual action of bringing us out of death into life

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This question is for both and last doctor Brown to respond first Does the

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Bible differentiate between for knowledge and for ordination or they use synonymously?

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Sometimes they're used synonymously sometimes differentiation is made in Hebrew You you don't have a specific word that's used for for knowing as much as knowing so for example

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Genesis 18 God knows that Abraham will Guide his household after him in a certain way and that's one of the reasons for choosing him

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But There may be something that God knows in advance and it simply stated that God knew thus and such without any implication of him acting on it when

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Peter talks in 1st Peter 1 about the elect according to for knowledge you could interpret that either to say that he saw in advance who they would be and Chose that those who would believe would be saved or that he foreordained and that's what for knowledge means

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There's but on a lexical level and just a purely dictionary level

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The Greek word for for no you cannot demonstrate Always or predominantly means predetermined or predestined it simply means no in advance then exegetically you have to open up Exactly what it means in a given context, but certainly many of the times in Scripture where God speaks of foreknowing

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He does it absolutely detached from any hint or indication that he predetermined those events

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And there are many many such verses we could look at it as we go through Scripture Well, I think there is a difference that we need to keep in mind

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Certainly, there are places they can be differentiated from one another But I think one that is extremely relevant to us here is the use in the golden chain of redemption

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In Romans 8 29 Paul uses the term for no he's using it as a finite verb

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It's an active verb. It is it's what God does he foreknows not he brings in knowledge But it goes back to you da to know it refers to a choice to enter into a loving relationship

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Even beforehand with someone and it becomes the ground of the golden chain of redemption those whom he foreknew

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Lovingly chose to enter into redemption with these he predestined those whom he predestined these he also called whom he called these he also

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Justified whom he justified these he also glorified. You can't break that chain You can't break that chain and I don't understand how my

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Arminian friends can say well he calls everyone No, he calls those who were foreknown and predestined and who are going to be justified so the only two ways that are consistent to interpret the golden chain of redemption in Romans chapter 8 is

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To either be a universalist. He's foreknown everyone predestined everyone called everyone justified everyone and he will glorify

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Or to be reformed there's a certain people he foreknew Predestined called justified and glorified and only one of those instances does

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God have any freedom Because he if he's if God's the universalist then he doesn't have any freedom to save anybody if it doesn't save anybody he doesn't any

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Freedom only if God has the freedom to save whom he chooses out of free mercy and grace that remnant

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Chosen by grace does God have the freedom to reveal himself as he sees fit for the maximum of his glory

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I'm sorry. I thought that was the both of us. No, that's fine. That's quite all right All right, we'll take one more question each.

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This one is to dr. White Is God's concern for men parentheses sinners in Scripture merely an anthropomorphism like for example his quote repentance

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Well, I'd have to ask the question when you say concern for men Are you talking about a general common grace?

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Are you talking about? Specific people. I mean obviously God shows concern For Moses in a way, he doesn't show concern for the

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Amorite high priest He shows concern for the disciples in a way.

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He did not show concern for Herod to whom Jesus didn't even say a word and refused to say a word

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So, I'm not sure what can show concern for and I I don't think it's an it's a mere anthropomorphism in the sense that You have

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I think very clearly the extension of God's mercy To all of creation

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God causes his son to shine on the just and the unjust with with equality as The the

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BD onion really has has well put it Or maybe it's value about them I forget which one wanted to put it the question real the real question should be not why do

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Bad things ever happen to good people It's why do good things ever happen to anybody at all?

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Because there are no good people. We're all bad people in the first first place so so everything that a person experiences in regards to The beauty of life and we saw a beautiful sunset tonight.

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We came out of the restaurants. I'll look at the beauty of the sky The unregenerate person sees that too and can enjoy that that actually is common grace that is an extension of God's mercy because God's wrath abides upon that person and so What's the difference?

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Well God's wrath used to abide upon me But in eternity past God had chosen to not only provide a way of salvation

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But also to make application of that Salvation at a point in time draw me under unto himself and reveal

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Jesus Christ to me Why cling to him this day and only why cling to him yes, certainly the texts that speak of God's concern and his love or Quite genuine and do reflect his heart when he says

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I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked he means that I would Say he took no pleasure in the in the death of Herod And we simply don't know what

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God ultimately did to draw Herod to himself We don't know and we don't know why at a given time

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Jesus speaks to one and not to another But you could make it arbitrary Or you could say that he also knew who he was dealing with and what was going on in certain hearts and lives at certain

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Times just like there were there was a time when he drew me to himself Before that it had not happened was it a state that I was in those are all things that God knows but When it speaks of him repenting it doesn't mean that he's literally changing his mind it means that he is

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Experiencing what would you we call in human terms a feeling of regret? Because God does not regret the same way.

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We do we have to try to Understand exactly what it means, but as I worked on Jeremiah for years

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I understood that that God can actually experience in time things as if he's genuinely disappointed and Genuinely hopeful just like Jesus did when he was on the earth even though he absolutely knows what the outcome is

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I? Likened it to watching a movie. You've seen before maybe some classic movie. You know the outcome you know the details

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But it's too intense to watch because it grips your heart so we can experience things in time even if we know the outcome and There is a simple exegesis for Romans 8.

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That's not Calvinist Dr..

02:19:00

Brown In your last statement you focused much on the love of God with which

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I wholeheartedly agree But does that mean that you are overemphasizing this attribute above others

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I Certainly hope not I certainly want to be accurate and And it's point to the severity of God as well as the goodness of God as Paul speaks of in Romans the 11th chapter

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I felt in the context of this particular evening It was important to do that and to remind everyone of the many texts that I read from and quoted from and Even though I've written about the wrath of God and pointed out that Most of the phrases in Scripture where God says

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I will pour out. It's not my spirit. It's my wrath or judgment and I believe that the church has really lost sight of divine judgment of coming judgment of Final wrath and and that's something of great concern to me

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But I would say that the greater emphasis in the coming of Jesus into the world is on the manifestation of God's love

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So while affirming his other attributes I did seek to point to his love in a decisive way in the context of the debate to say walk away

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With that in mind walk away with that revelation if you ultimately think that the full expression of God Comes to us through his son

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Hebrews 1 many other passages and Jesus said if you've seen me you've seen the father I would say that as I gaze on Jesus.

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I primarily get a revelation of his love and secondarily get a revelation of God's wrath and that's what

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God is crying out to the world at at this point and Then the day will come of wrath and that's why we need to warn about it last thing though There's no possible way that I could pretend to rightly and fully

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Represent all of God's attributes even in a million lifetimes to do it in a perfectly balanced way So we're each doing our best in the midst of of our lives and our humanity and especially in the context of this debate

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And with dr. White emphasizing one point strongly. I wanted to affirm that and put the emphasis somewhere else

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Well, I would only very briefly comment in response to what Michael just said In saying that secondarily when you look at the cross you see the wrath of God.

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I would say that the greatest corrective that Evangelical Church needs today in its doctrine of the cross is to first and foremost

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See that in the death of Christ That is the greatest

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Exemplification that God's wrath is real if Jesus the sinless Son of God has to die

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To fulfill that wrath how serious is that and it is only against that deep black backdrop

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That the love of God can truly be seen I'm afraid that in much of evangelicalism we have an emotional doctrine of the cross not a biblical doctrine of the cross and When you have an emotional doctrine of the cross and I doubt

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Michael would disagree with this You end up with no basis for calling people to holiness of life and true repentance