Why Are Men Under Attack? | An Interview On the @bereanbabes Show

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Viewer discretion is advised. People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio.

Salvation in Christ Alone and the Coming Judgment

The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone, and any who reject Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin, and the wrath of almighty God is hanging over our heads.

They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish. God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the Father, where he sits now to make intercession for us.

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

Introducing the Bible Bash Podcast

Hi guys, welcome to Barina Bibs,.

Where Theology Matters. So I'm going to have a guest today. So back up, we're going to have a good discussion tonight. All right, there you go. For some reason I can hear myself. Can you guys hear me?

We can hear you. Yeah, I can hear you. You can hear me? Okay, I don't know why I'm experiencing an echo. All right, welcome. The show will carry on. So guys, introduce yourself.

Yeah, I'm Tim Mullett. I'm one of the co-hosts of the Bible Bash podcast. Harrison, you can say a few words about yourself.

Yeah, I'm Harrison Kerrig. I'm the other co-host of the Bible Bash podcast. Do you want us to talk a little bit about the show or ourselves? What do you want to know?

How did you say the name Bible Bash? I've always wanted to know that.

Well, basically, we were brainstorming a bunch of ideas. At this point, I don't remember the short list we had. Yeah, we had a few. But we settled on Bible Bash just because we knew we wanted to start a podcast that was talking about all of the subjects that no one really ever wants to touch, basically.

Or if they do, they do it in a very apologetic way. So we knew that's what we wanted to do with the podcast. So when we were thinking of a name, we thought, well, what do people normally call that kind of person who just speaks truthfully?

And Bible Bash, we landed on that. Well, people always say, hey, quit Bible bashing me or whatever. So we were like, oh, yeah, we should just call it the Bible Bash podcast.

Okay, I see. So it's kind of like, is it Bible Thumper? Okay, that's good. Anything that has to do with the scripture, it's fair game. So it's fine.

Keep the name. Yeah, we don't have any plans to change.

Yeah, I think we wanted something that was a little more direct and a little more blunt. So we wanted something to have a straight talk kind of feel to it. But there's so many podcasts out there that are named that or those kind of variants.

You know that anytime anyone encourages another person to obey the Bible, essentially, they're going to be called a Bible basher. So we just thought we'd lean into that and go with it.

You didn't want to go to the just be loving route.

No, we think we have enough of that. Our culture is burning around us. So I think it's time to be a little more direct and sound a little more like Jesus or John the Baptist at that point.

Men Under Attack and the Meaning of Patriarchy

I love it. I love it. I love it. Okay, so like today I want to talk about like, you know, I do see. I've been seeing this thing that has been going on for quite some time. So Patrick is pretty much under attack.

Men, anything that has to do with men. It's always been. It's becoming an issue. And I'm even seeing that. Okay, there's some tendencies even in the churches, even like in good churches. Always want to have men sort of like take a backseat.

You know, I do think men are supposed to lead because that's how God has designed them to lead. So and I'm glad that you guys are guys, you know, because again, I'm covered over here. So anything that is wrong.

Well, since we're men, we specialize in this and we can teach you the Bible from a man's perspective.

Yes, a man's perspective. So yes, we have good gift in the house. We're going to help us. So so what is patriarchy? Because that's the thing. Always be toxic. Masculinity is always that's that's in the air right now.

Nobody wants to hear the word patriarchy because it's just like, oh, no, that's so mean. That is so old. So help us understand in that area. Yeah, well, I can I can help with that.

There's there's basically several different positions as it relates to this topic. So you have what you might describe as patriarchy and then you have what's described as complementarianism. And then, you know what?

On the other end of the spectrum, you have something called egalitarianism, essentially. So egalitarianism is a belief that essentially male and female are interchangeable parts. There's no difference between male and female in terms of their ontology, in terms of their makeup.

The differences are just purely superficial. So that's that's basically what egalitarianism is. It's based on the assumption that we're just we're basically the same with superficial differences. You know, basically the only difference is that a woman can make a baby and that's that's about it.

But then, you know, with the transgender stuff, you know, it really gets confusing at that point. But the differences are. But leaving that aside, you essentially you have the idea of egalitarianism. And then complementarianism is kind of like a midway point between what you might describe as patriarchy and egalitarianism.

Complementarianism is basically the idea that there are roles, there are real role differences, particularly in the church and the home. So men and women are made to be complements for each other. And then men are supposed to be leaders in the church and home.

But then there really isn't much of a grounding for that, like in terms of the actual position there. Meaning like there's no like it's still just kind of like a halfway position in in the way that it actually functions.

Meaning men and women aren't really that different. It's just God is just kind of arbitrarily decided that men should lead and particularly in the home and the church. But then beyond that, it's really up in the air.

But then, you know, patriarchy is kind of like the, you know, the bugbear, the, you know, the scary man that you want to avoid. And that's that basically is like, you know, the ire of feminists everywhere.

Like everyone, they want to smash the patriarchy. They hate the patriarchy. And, you know, our country was, you know, it used to be a lot more patriarchal than what it was now. But patriarchy is just that idea that there are male and female roles.

But then if you want to distinguish it from complementarianism at that point, those roles weren't arbitrary. God designed men and women to fulfill those roles. So God made men to be leaders and he equipped men to be leaders.

And then he made women to be followers and to play a supporting role in that way. And those are tied to the way that God even made us. And so that that's kind of a short, you know, distinction between those three positions.

But then to a person on the left, basically any complementarians, patriarchy, they can't tell the difference. It's just anyone who basically dares to suggest that men and women are different, they have different roles.

They're just, you know, a problem that needs to be stopped, essentially.

So you're living like 500 to a thousand years in the past. And we're past all that, right?

Yeah. Wrong side of history. Yeah. Here's some primitive caveman who, you know, can't, you know, tell, you know, that we have electricity now and things like that.

And so things have changed. Yeah. So like, you know, I grew up in Africa. So that's everybody just knows like men are just in charge. It just comes with the territory. It's not like a strange thing to have.

However, even when men are sort of like in charge, they almost kind of like take kind of like a backseat. So, for example, it'll be OK. So for them, I even use my brothers as an example. If we're not around, like, you know, I've had two brothers.

If we're not around, they're not going to they're not going to cook for themselves. They're not going to do anything. And then they're just they're so hungry. And then when we come back with my sister says, oh, why didn't you make something for yourself to eat?

I said, oh, why should I make something for myself? I have three sisters. And yeah, I'm just like, OK, fine. You have three sisters. OK, fine. We know we belong in the kitchen. We want to cook. And then, you know, they'll eat and that will just be it.

So that has been that's just normal. It's not going to be a strange thing, like sort of like in an African home. I know over time things have changed. So whenever you hear that a man is in charge, it's not it's not a scandal.

Yes. Yes. It's not an issue like those are the things. So then there's been a situation whereby this is true because I know where I'm from, right? Like women, they'll go like, you know, to a witch doctor.

They'll go get a concussion over there to give it to their husband so that the husband can be pretty much it becomes docile. So whatever the woman says and then, you know, like, no, I don't want you to be going out drinking with your guys.

And the guy doesn't. He would just be home.

Yes. We just did an episode on imprecatory prayers. So something along those lines.

Yeah. So like, you know, those are the solutions that, you know, women will go to the length. You know what I mean? Just so to quote unquote, to keep their men in check, so to speak. So when I see the stuff that's happening over here, I'm just like, wow, man, you know, it's kind of different.

So I know I wonder that way. So now what about. I've always had this question. So what is your guy's view whenever it comes to the public square? I get it that, OK, in the church, male headship in the home, male headship.

What about in a public square? Like how do you how would you describe it?

All right. So, yeah, I gave you I gave you two. So you have like the complementarian movement and then you have the patriarchy movement in terms of the actual movements themselves. Now, you know, to a feminist, everyone, they're all patriarchy, OK?

Yeah. Yeah. But then like this, this question is basically the major difference between much like the broader complementarian movement and then the patriarchy movement in general. So those who, you know, take a patriarchal stance, they're basically going to take a stance to say that God has uniquely designed men to be leaders.

And that has implications further than just the church in the home. So, you know, God says to him in Isaiah that, you know, you know, alas, you know, women, women are your rulers and infants are your oppressors.

And so like the idea of a lady ruler, biblically speaking, I mean, to the to the minds of Old Testament saints like this was something that was shameful. It was something that that God's it was shameful based on the fact that God designed men to lead.

And he uniquely equipped them to lead. And I think there's a lot of reasons why this could be the case. If you just kind of think about it, like think about the way that men and women are made and they're made fundamentally different.

But that would be a patriarchal view. That would be a patriarchal view to say that men and women are different and God's designed them for different tasks. And then those tasks that he designed for aren't arbitrary, like meaning like if they were arbitrary, he could have just he could have made it the other way.

But then he made men to be unique creatures to lead. And I think like just to explain why it's not arbitrary. I think you just have to think about the way that men are designed. And so like men are God's designed men to be like to have courage and to have strength and to face like difficult situations.

And if you think about just like the idea of you have to send, you know, your soldiers into war and you're going to lose a thousand men in order to gain a few inches. That's the kind of thing that you need a man who can shut off all of his emotions and make that kind of decision based on the outcome.

And men are just much, you know, much better designed by God to do that kind of thing. Whereas, you know, ladies are often going to prioritize the emotional impact of a decision to a much greater degree than a man who can just like turn it off and say, we have to do it.

You know, so like then if you're asking the question, like in the public square, like did God design men like uniquely to lead? You know, those in the patriarchal camp are going to say, yes, he's designed them to lead.

And that has implications further than the church and the home. And then those in the complementarian world is kind of a mixed bag. But for the most part, they're going to say, hey, you know, it could go either way, basically.

Does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

And I think, you know, especially in the complementarian camp, it's even the ones who do in public teach on, you know, men need to be the leaders of their families. You hear that a lot, like on Father's Day sermons and whatnot.

You hear all about how men need to step up as leaders in their family, which is good. You know, men need to be encouraged to do that. But then it but then when it comes, you know, when it comes time to tell telling their wives to follow that leadership, for example, a lot of times it's a lot of, hey, you know, I'm sorry, guys.

You know, I didn't make up the rules. I'm just I'm just enforcing them. It's a very apologetic kind of sort of presentation of male leadership. And I think I think that's a pretty distinct, different.

I grew up I grew up thinking that way, thinking men need to lead. But then, hey, you know, sorry, you know, I hate it as much as you.

It's kind of like a hypothetical situation that should functionally never happen, though, like in the minds of many, like in the complementarian world.

Like, oh, yeah, like like, hey, you know, you need to you need to be such a good husband that it's it's a wife's delight to always follow you.

What woman would want to follow the kind of man who's leading, loving her like Christ loves his church? Right. Exactly. The idea, though, is that like if you're if you're leading her perfectly, she should never disagree with you.

She should always want to follow you effortlessly. So there's never like a real submission moment there where she has to do something she doesn't want to do.

So it kind of sounds like you're just saying, do exactly what my wife wants me to do.

Leadership means figuring out what your wife wants to do in every scenario and then deciding to do it. You know what she says. So but that's what a lot of complementarian kind of leadership actually looks like.

You're like the hypothetical tiebreaker in the rare case that you should ever disagree, which functionally never happened, because if you do, you probably haven't lived with her in an understanding way well enough yet.

And so it's just a real soft kind of it's not like initiative. It's not like, you know, having a plan for your home. It's just you just basically you're trying to figure out how to keep your wife happy.

Not to mention, you know, when like if you actually think about leading like Jesus led, you know, that leads you to the obvious conclusion. Well, what happened to Jesus at the end of his life? I mean, everyone killed him for all the things he was saying.

He loved us like Christ. Even the apostles abandoned him because of everything that was happening to him. So I think, you know, when we say, hey, we need to lead like Christ, we probably need to have a little bit different picture if our idea is the whole.

Oh, our wife will always want to.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I think that's where he always comes. You know, Christ was saving, you know, he was a saving leader. So that's where it always comes from. I think in theory, everything just women can say that men need to lead men.

But now when you have to put it into practice, because, you know, it's in our nature to take over because that's the curse we got right from Eve. So in a situation whereby if a guy is not doing anything, if the women are there, the inclination of women is going to take over.

That's just going to come naturally because of sin. So like if a man is just going to be like, oh, OK, they're already doing it. Those are the things to me that I do see, because I think sometimes that guys are.

I don't know, like I don't want to use the word like scared. They're passive. They're wimps. Yeah, like they're absolutely the wimps. You're taking you're taking. Why are you taking your time?

Men are tempted in two different ways. So men are tempted towards like absolute passivity in the way that you're describing. And then on the other end, you know, they're tempted towards, you know, the Spanish have a word machismo for that.

But basically just kind of like, you know, the swagger and the, you know, domineering kind of leadership. So men are tempted in both ways. They're either going to be like really passive, like tempted to be really passive or just really kind of domineering.

And like, it's hard to find find that it definitely is. But, yeah, most men right now, most men are very passive. So you have like a like in the church and in the world in general, you have a lot of ladies who are taking charge.

But then like the inverse of that is you have a lot of men who are just sitting on their butts, doing nothing, playing video games all day long and asking their wife's permission to go to a different room.

You know, I guess just like it's really bad, like in both ways. And so it's not like it's like it's, you know, passive men and, you know, domineering women. They're just two sides of the same problem.

Passive Men, Domineering Women, and Cultural Formation

OK, yeah. So I see. So I guess that's exactly what's going to if men are going to be passive, women are going to be domineering. So that's just going to feed into, you know, feminism, everything, whatever.

Yeah. So that's a very good point that you bring up, because like the other instance that I had, you know, been at whatever experience was. OK, so it was like, OK, we're going to do some groups. Right.

And there's female and there were men. So but like, you know, when the groups were formed. Then the next minute it was just like, OK, so I'm asking, you know, one of the friends was my friend, like, OK, so what's going on in your group?

Oh, yeah. No, I have to prepare whatever, you know, I have to get ready for the group. I say, what? What do you mean you have to get ready for the group? Yeah, I have to prepare whatever. So I'm like, so you're going to be in the group and you're going to be teaching in the group.

And it was innocent on her part. I knew there were some guys in there. Then I'm thinking, I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is so bad. They're not even taking initiative that they should lead the group. And lo and behold, they were sitting in there and their sister was leading the group.

And if she's not available, she will let another sister sort of like lead the group. So but, you know, they're young. The guys are in their 20s. But to me, they may know like, OK, so if they cannot even lead this group, this is something that's so simple.

They don't know that they're already in their 20s. At what point is it going to? You see what I'm saying? At what point?

Yeah, it's a passive bin problem as much as it's a, you know, ladies taking charge problem. So, I mean, I wouldn't be called dead. I wouldn't, you know, I mean, I remember, you know, in my early 20s, we me and my younger brother, we just got saved.

And we hadn't had all our theology worked out, but we were as much as we do now. But then, you know, we went to the passion conference because that's what young people did at that time. Yeah. But then, you know, when Beth Moore got up to teach, we walked out, you know, we went to Taco Bell.

That was definitely a better investment of your time.

We were done, you know, I mean, we knew enough at that point to say, no, this isn't happening. This isn't happening. This isn't happening. So, but I mean, you need you need people. You need men who have a spine who said, hey, you know, we're not going to go with it.

Well, and I think that's a bit of the issue, too, is, you know, we're living in a society that really tries to completely minimize male leadership. And in any sort of way and and almost kind of, you know, bastardize it, like make it this thing that you don't want to ever happen.

Almost. And you want to celebrate the the women leaders in the world. And you want to elevate their voices and all of the various mantras that that our society uses now. And so so men are men are to blame when they're passive.

It's like they need to step up and they're going to be held accountable for that. But at the same time, you know, it's hard. It's hard in a certain sense to fault them all the time, because a lot of a lot of people, a lot of men, especially the younger men, have basically their entire lives been raised up in a culture that has not that has not pushed them towards leadership in any sort of real way, if that makes sense.

So I think that's part of the issue, too, is just a culture that totally does not wants to get away from male leadership in every way possible because of all of the shortcomings that men can have. You know, they're they're domineering or, you know, they take advantage of their power, hungry, whatever it is.

You know, our culture wants to get away from that and put women in their place and every single position. And and so, I mean, obviously, you're going to end up with a whole generation of men that are passive at that point, if that's how you're teaching them and raising them.

You actually. Yeah. I mean, what you have is you have a whole culture right now that is training men to be women and training women to be men. Right. So the primary thing that you tell women to be is you tell women to be strong and powerful and courageous.

Like that's what you want, like women to be. You want them to be boss babes, you know. So you do. But then, like, what do you know? How do you train men? And so there's a war that is being waged against young boys.

Like most of the time, like like you have like ladies who really don't understand the way that little boys work. The little boys have like they're hyper, you know, they they don't sit still, you know.

And so you have like a generation of boys that are being drugged by women because women like don't understand that. Like boys like to fight and they like to play and they like to move around. They have.

I mean, and that's just a biological reality of having more muscles. Right. Like you when you have more muscles, you want to use them. And so you have like a generation of boys that are being drugged and then they're being like they're being told to get in touch with their like their feminine side and to be sensitive.

And, you know, like, you know, boys cry, too, and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, and like they like the boys now are being trained, like they're being trained to be girls. And then the girls are being trained to be boys.

And then big surprise when like like in order to be like when they grow up. That's what they've been taught their whole life is basically they've been taught the reverse role that they're supposed to be having.

And then they get married and then, you know, they're both doing the opposite of what they should be doing in certain ways. But, you know, certainly, yeah, I mean, it's our culture and society and even the church is feeding into that for sure.

How Men Can Lead Without Apologizing

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if this guy is playing a joke on you, Tim.

Hey, hey, I love women. I married one. Yeah, he even married one, man. I married one of them, you know.

That's a good one. Conley is a friend of our show.

Yeah, I figured. I figured. I figured because he actually singled you out. Singled you out. Welcome to the channel. So how can men step up and take the lead despite this hostile nature right now in our culture?

Because I just don't think that women, given the opportunity, they're not going to sit back and say like, OK, men are going to do it. It's in us, like we're just going to, you know, there's a sin nature that comes with it, right?

Because, you know, you don't want anybody to tell you what to do. It's hard to submit. You know, it's hard to have that submission, right? Like you, you know, submit us onto the Lord. So you need to have a change in order for you to submit.

Otherwise, that's not a natural inclination for a woman to want to submit.

I think it's not. But then I think it's one of the things my wife says. So anytime people ask my wife, like why she married me, she'll tell them like the first thing she says is like that, you know, Tim was the first person, the first man in her life to ever tell her no.

That's what she says. You know, so like the first guy that was going to ever stand up to her ever, you know, like in her life, you know, so like there's I mean, I think there's like a there's a you don't have to change everything, you know.

So I think part of this is like men, like you can't change society. And a lot of men get hopeless because they think that they have some sort of responsibility to fix, you know, the massive societal problem.

But women like women are made to follow. Women are made to follow. And they look for guys with confidence. And like, you know, those guys like the, you know, the bad like women attracted to the bad boy guys.

Yeah, they are. They are. They're attracted to them. And the reason why is because those guys have confidence. And so when when a lady is looking at like the bad boy guy who has confidence, who has a plan, who has a direction, and who has courage and conviction.

And then she's looking at like the sissy guy over in the corner who cries every time, like he gets his feelings hurt. Like she's pulled towards the bad guy. You know, she's not pulled towards Mr. Nice guy kind of guy.

She's not, you know, and so like men are being trained to be like, just, you know, have the emotional self control of a five year old girl. That's what they're trained to do. But women aren't attracted to that.

They're attracted to like the the bad boy guys. And they'll take the bad boy guys like even though they know they're bad guys. Yeah, that's just because they have leadership qualities that they're looking for.

And so what that tells you, though, is that what that tells you is you don't have to change everything. Just just start by being like like being a leader, like having initiative, having a plan, being assertive, knowing what you're doing, knowing where you're going.

And like, you know, like women are going to be drawn to that. And it doesn't have to be the distorted version of it. It needs to be the biblical version of it. But they will be drawn to that. And you don't have to you're not marrying like every woman in the world, you know, in terms of like being a leader in your home.

You're looking for one for one woman. And there's a lot of women out there. You know, I have ladies who contact me all the time and they'll like they just lament the fact that I can't get a man to ask them on a date, you know, in person and things like that.

Just having the initiative to ask them on a date in person, you know, without texting them or and asking if they want to hang out or something like that. Like, oh, I'm trying to say is just be a leader.

And there's a lot of ladies out there looking for a leader. If you just be a leader like they'll you'll find there's a lot of ladies who just they're desperate to find one and they'll take the bad guy, you know, because that's that's a lot better than the guy on the other end.

On the quiet thing. Yeah.

Go ahead, Harrison. Yeah, I think, too, along with that is just changing the way that you talk about these kinds of things in general as an individual. Like I said earlier, there's a lot of people out there, especially, you know, Christian leaders who even if they do, even if they do take the stand that men are supposed to be the ones that lead most the time, at least, you know, it comes with like a lot of apologies.

A lot of, you know, timidness when it comes to discussing the topic. And I think we just need to get rid of all that, basically. Like, just just talk about it like any normal, any normal subject. I mean, like, however you would talk about, you know, prayer and the Bible or, you know, here's how we read the Bible or whatever.

Just talk about male leadership and, you know, female submission in that way. Like quit quit treating words like submission like they're bad words, you know, like you just cussed in front of your grandma or something.

It's just a normal word that has a normal meaning that is used in the Bible in a positive light. And so we should just we should treat it the same way God treats it, basically, and and not be ashamed of that either and not feel like you have to incessantly apologize or, you know, make every sort of make every sort of qualification for it before you make any statement about any sort of male leadership.

Just just talk about it like a normal topic, you know, and and the best way to do that is by listening to our podcast. We will definitely train you in that.

Practical Ways Women Can Support Male Leadership

Yeah, they'll train you. Yes, guys. Anybody in here who haven't subscribed, be sure to subscribe. I put all the description in the links. So like so so now do you think these things that women can do to help men in this area or what are the do's and the don'ts that, you know, women we find ourselves doing that?

We might think it's helpful, but it's not. The do's and the don'ts.

Yeah. I mean, I think there's there's a sense in which we did a series of podcast on, you know, what do I do if my I call it. What do I do if my worthless husband won't lead? And there were we gave a lot of tips related to that kind of thing.

But I mean, I think, you know, like ladies, like they do have to want to follow. And, you know, a lot of times when you have a real passive guy, what's actually happening in those kind of situations is you have a guy who basically has made it his mission to figure out, like, how to make you happy.

And so, like, there's a lot of like I think a lot of like young couples, particularly young Christian couples. The guy thinks like he's bought all the servant leader stuff. And he's basically he basically thinks that leading means trying to figure out how to make my wife happy.

And then, like, what leadership is in his mind is just basically asking his wife, like, what do you want to do? So, like, where do you want to eat today or what do you want to watch today or where do you want to go today?

And that's nice. That's selfless. That's sacrificial. That's great. But then what's functionally happening in that framework is a wife is basically being asked to make every decision. And it can be real stressful to be the one to have to decide everything.

And there's something that feels really imbalanced about that. And that can kind of like there's a sense in which ladies, they want that. But then if they get that, then the guy kind of becomes emasculated in their eyes.

Like they conquered him. Right. Like, so I conquered you. Like, you're a real nice guy. You're sweet. But you're not like I don't feel safe with you leading because you're not leading. You're just asking me to lead at that point.

And I think, like, what ladies like practically what ladies can do is they can just refuse to play that game. You say, hey, you're the leader. You tell us what we're doing. Right. Or just let the whole thing go.

Burn if it has to burn. Yeah. I'm just saying, like, if he's coming up to you and asking you, what do we do? What do you say? Hey, you're the leader. You tell me. And then, like, practically, you know, what she could do is to go up to her husband on a regular basis and say, hey, what do you think we should do about this?

You know, what do we think we should do about this? And, you know, a guy who's been trained to kind of be a follower, he's going to say, I don't know. What do you think? And at that point, you stand your ground.