Steve Swartz Interview

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the apostle

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Paul said, but we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

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In short, if you like smooth, watered down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

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King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry.

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My name is Mike Abendroth. And as most of you know, maybe not all of you, but as most of you know,

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Fridays, we talk about theological issues in the church. You know, we call it

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Woodshed Friday, taking people to the theological woodshed. Thursdays, we talk about something positively.

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What's the doctrine of confession or the deity of Christ, something like that. So it's kind of K -love Thursday. Tuesdays, I've talked to Pastor Steve and we deal with issues in the local church.

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Mondays, it's a sermon from Bethlehem Bible Church. And on Wednesdays, we talk to pastors, theologians, authors, and sometimes the authors are pastor theologians as well.

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Maybe that's Ephesians 4, pastors -theologians. Today, we have Steve Schwartz online.

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Steve, welcome to No Compromise Radio ministry. Thank you, Mike. It's good to be here. So Steve, we have some common bonds in gospel ministry.

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Tell our listeners about your ministry at Grace Bible Church. And I think it took you, what, 25 years to get through seminary?

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It took me 21, so now I feel better? Pretty close, pretty close. Yeah, I went to seminary on the better late than never plan.

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And I have the privilege right now of pastoring as a senior pastor at Grace Bible Church of Bakersfield in Bakersfield, California.

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It's a wonderful, growing body of believers and we're just excited to see what the

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Lord is doing and how He's maturing believers and using them for His work. Well, Steve, we are desirous of church growth, aren't we?

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We want our saints to mature and grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. So we're about church growth.

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It's just not about how we get the numbers in, right? Well, absolutely. The idea is to grow depths of believers and hopefully as their love for Christ and their love for the gospel increases, they just become lights in the world and you almost don't have to tell them to.

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If you're feeding them Christ, feeding them the Word, and they're thrilled with their Lord, thrilled with their faith, they're going to share their faith.

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We do have, for example, we have an organized evangelism program here in our church, but by far, the most converts that we've seen have been just the spontaneous conversations that our members are having in the workplace with their family and so forth.

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Amen. Well, I know a little bit about Bakersfield because I used to work there. I sold some medical supplies and I would imagine that there are quite a few

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Roman Catholics in Bakersfield. Do you find that to be true? Yeah, there's a huge contingent of Catholics here and it's our hope to minister to some of them and to lead them to Christ.

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We also have quite a few Jehovah's Witnesses. This is kind of a big stronghold for that as well. And in our church, we've had the privilege of seeing a couple of them come to faith in Christ and we're excited about that.

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Steve, you're preaching through books of the Bible, I would imagine. So before we get into your new book, and I want to talk about that in detail, tell us your philosophy for preaching.

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What book of the Bible are you preaching through now? Why it's important to pick a church that's driven by expository preaching,

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Christ -centered preaching from the pulpit. Give me your philosophy for that. Oh, wow, we could go for a while on that.

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Well, Paul told the Ephesian elders in Acts 20 that he had presented the whole counsel of God to them.

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And preaching expositionally, verse by verse, that's the only way I know to do that, is to make sure you're not cherry -picking favorite topics or soapbox issues, but just to simply go through scripture.

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For me, when we began here at Grace Bible Church, my top priority was to preach

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Christ. And so we started preaching through the Gospel of Mark and went also to Philippians and we've done

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Colossians. Since we do two services on Sundays, we can cover a pretty fair bit of ground.

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And right now, I just happen to be preaching a series on ecclesiology through both First and Second Thessalonians.

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We're doing it concurrently. And then in the evenings on Sundays, we just started three months ago, going verse by verse through Isaiah.

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So we're planning on about 18 months in Isaiah. 18 months, I thought you were gonna say 18 years.

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Well, we could, we could, but we wanna get through some of the bigger chunks.

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But for me, and I think our church would share this, as you are confronted by scripture in the order that God brings it to you, you're faced with issues, you're faced with your own sanctification, you're faced with whatever he wants to present to you in his order, not in my order.

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And so that the expositional part just makes that very, very plain.

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It takes the pressure off me, takes the pressure off them. I can simply shrug my shoulders and say, hey, this is the next text.

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Let's go through it together. Talking to Steve Schwartz today on No Compromise Radio Ministry.

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He's written a new book called Shattered Shepherds, subtitled Finding Hope in the

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Midst of Ministry Disaster. Steve, this is a Cress Biblical Resources publication, and I noticed you've got some pretty heavy hitters there endorsing it,

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MacArthur, Strzok, Gregory Harris. Tell us the reason why you wrote it.

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My guess is you're not writing it from a distance. There's probably some autobiographical impetus there.

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So give the listeners kind of an overview, and then we'll dive into the details. Sure. Just the brief version, it would take hours to really walk through it.

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But I was a pastor in Central States in the United States. For a number of years in a church

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I actually planted. And by God's grace, he allowed many wonderful things to happen there over the dozen years or so that we were there.

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But the biggest mistake I ever made in ministry was not understanding the dynamic of putting

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Godly men in leadership. My understanding of that was limited and was immature.

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And frankly, I was limited and I was immature. And so I made a lot of errors in ministry and kind of set myself up for some problems later on down the road.

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That's not to say that I lay all the blame at my own feet, but a good part of the book is really to direct back to yourself and to see what you did that might've contributed to a problem.

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But the long and short of it is it ended up being a very painful ministry disaster, one in which horrible things happened.

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My wife being called in the middle of the night, scandalous letters being sent to my family members and her family members, saying terrible things that weren't true, even to the point of my church office being broken into by church members and things being stolen, and just getting to the point where it becomes ridiculous to even continue in the ministry.

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So basically all of that, and I think a good way to compare it was just a few years prior to that kind of disastrous couple of year period.

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My dad had been killed in a car accident. I was very close to him. And so that's kind of my measuring point for the worst grief you can possibly experience.

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And I was shocked to find that our ministry disaster that we went through as a family was much worse than that.

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It was much worse than the death of my dad in so many ways. There didn't seem to be any silver lining whatsoever.

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At least when a loved one dies, you have the hope of heaven, hope of reunion and so forth. But in this case with the ministry, just was like one giant black cloud that wouldn't go away.

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So that's kind of my story. And eventually through my own experience, my own writing and thinking and praying and frankly repenting of many things, that's where the book came from.

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Steve, I think of 2 Corinthians 1 and how when we receive comfort from the Lord, the

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God of all comfort, then we're able to comfort others. And as I was reading your book, I thought, and I hate to use this word, but I can't think of another one.

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I guess I could say opaque or translucent, but you seem transparent in the fact that, in light of the gospel, in light of who we are in Christ Jesus and Christ death, it's fine to say

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I made this mistake and I should have done this thing differently. I had areas that I could do better in.

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And so it's a book that you're not completely blasting people that you were pastoring, but in light of who

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God is and his sovereignty, here's what you've gone through. And these are some lessons that you wanna teach the next generation.

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Is that a fair statement? That's a very fair statement. And just to clarify the purpose of the book, it's not so much to help men and their families recover from ministry disaster, although that's certainly a secondary purpose.

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The purpose is to get them back in the pulpit and get them back in the game because the church is so in need of godly men to exposit his word all over the world.

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So to have a guy just because he's hurt or he made mistakes, and I'm not talking about complete disqualification, but to be so discouraged that he just wouldn't be in the ministry anymore.

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We can't have that. They have training, they have experience. They may be in the pulpit with a leg missing and fingers gone because of the disaster they've been through, but they need to be there.

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And so that my hope is to encourage the guys who are so discouraged, even lay elders or other leaders in the church that just don't want anything to do with the church anymore to get them back in the game, to get back on the horse and begin riding again.

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Steve, what I like is your chapter on the sovereignty of God chapter six, genuinely trust the sovereignty of God.

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And I liked it that you said in parentheses there in the table of contents, the chapter you are tempted to skip.

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Why are people tempted to skip the chapter? I think I know the answer, but I might as well hear it from you, the author. Well, I think a lot of people who end up reading this are theologians, they're men who know their

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Bible, they know theology. And I think it's a phrase we just throw out real quick.

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Well, you know, trust God, he's sovereign. Well, I do, I believe that. But then we have the giant disqualifier after that, why we don't actually trust the sovereignty of God.

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So I simply wanted to catch the eye and say, hey, you may have read Grudem, you may have read all kinds of theology on the sovereignty of God.

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This isn't about what you believe, this is about how you're living it. And I'll never forget a conversation

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I had with a guy shortly after our ministry disaster. And I felt very slighted,

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I felt ripped off. I felt like I had been mischaracterized and all that was true to a great degree.

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And what I told him was, I told him, I should still be there,

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I should still be making this thing happen. And he asked me, do you believe in sovereignty of God?

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And I said, yes, of course I do. He said, then if God wanted you there, you'd still be there, but he doesn't, he wants you out.

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That's why you're out. And I don't think I'd ever been confronted by God's sovereignty in such, in your face, between your eyes terms.

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And I found that to be the most comforting thing I'd ever heard, that if God wanted me there,

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I'd still be there. In your book, Steve, you write on page 71, as you discuss

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Galatians 2 with, it's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

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You say, quote, if part of living as one crucified with Christ means taking it on the chin in ministry, it doesn't matter,

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I'm crucified. If it means suffering under the weight of false accusation and character assassination in ministry, it doesn't matter,

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I'm crucified. There is a real joy to letting this truth sink into your soul. You belong completely to the

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Lord and you are his tool to use his way for his glory. Now that's good advice for the weary soul, isn't it?

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Well, absolutely. I think that of course applies to any believer who's suffering at all, but for the guy in ministry in particular, a lay leader or vocational pastor doesn't make any difference.

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The minute you start making yourself the center of attention, even in your own mind and your own heart, then that's when things are gonna hurt worse.

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But if you just expect that part of being crucified with Christ is to get nailed on occasion, then okay,

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I'm all right with it. That's part of the deal. And I think we understand that going into ministry on a theoretical level, but when you have bandages and wounds and people that you love and have baptized and have married and so forth are the ones throwing rocks at you, it gets a little harder to make that real.

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Steve, I always think to myself with some of the folks that have left the local church and they've gone someplace else, and I certainly don't claim to be perfect and I have sinned and made mistakes and I am not the great shepherd, but by the grace of God qualified for gospel ministry.

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And then I think some of the people that I was the officiating minister at their wedding, that I have to be in the center of their fireplace for the rest of their life as they have pictures of their wedding.

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Do they cut my face out or what do they do? Yeah, I've had that same conversation with a couple that had believed some untrue things about me and I had done their wedding and he actually called me and said, well,

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I guess I have to forgive you because you're hanging in our living room. So I appreciated his attitude.

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Talking about shattered shepherds, finding hope in the midst of ministry disaster. If you're a church, someone in the church listening, this would also benefit you because some of these same topics that Steve deals with for the pastor or for the minister, the church will go through that as well, members of the local church regarding forgiveness, worry, prayer.

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I loved the section where you talked about anger because you said it in a no -co style and no -co style is always biblical, always provocative, always in that order.

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And so this is, you could be a radio host by saying this. If you would say, I can't help being angry, that's what people say in the midst of this.

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And you said, say this five times aloud to yourself in the mirror. It is my hope that you look and feel like a total wimp by the time you're done.

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This is a statement of pathetic victim, of a pathetic victim, not the child of a living

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God in whom the Holy Spirit resides. Welcome to no -compromise radio ministry. I mean, the choice is, okay,

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I'm mad. All right, well, how long are you gonna stay that way? And because it doesn't do you any good, it's not doing anybody else any good.

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And ultimately you're just sinning against the Lord and probably sinning against your family, definitely sinning against those that you're maintaining anger towards.

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It does no good whatsoever. And I designed the book partly around some other things

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I'd read. There are other books that are for pastors who have gone through difficult situations. And frankly,

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I wasn't impressed with some of them because it's like they encouraged him to be the victim.

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They encouraged him to see himself as a tragic hero instead of honestly confronting, okay, nothing happened in a vacuum.

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I helped make this situation happen. What do I need to do in response to that? And I didn't see a lot of material on dealing with the honest issue of a pastor who is furious with people that he should be loving.

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Talking to Steve today regarding Shattered Shepherds. Steve, give me some pastoral advice, maybe some listeners are out there today and they think, you know, maybe this is driving us to vet our new potential pastor more.

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I see many times that pastors don't vet their potential churches and vice versa. In your particular case, you planted the church, but I think you could still offer us some wisdom.

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How much time should be spent, if you're a church, a pulpit search committee, finding a pastor?

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And in my opinion, I don't think we do that well enough. So talk to us about that. Boy, you know, that's a complex question because churches without pastors want them quickly and pastors without churches want them quickly.

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I mean, it's not unknown for that process to take six months but it's well worth it.

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And the usual pattern of flying the guy out there, having him preach once, have a few meetings, have dinner, maybe do that one more time and then making a decision, that you haven't even touched the surface.

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I think a great question to ask a potential pastor is tell me about your failures.

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Tell me what you've learned. Tell me about the worst suffering in your life and how you've been molded by that.

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Now, you know, he may be 25 and so he doesn't have a lot to go on yet. That's okay. What's your attitude toward those things?

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I think it's gotta be a dating relationship where you get to know them, you feel comfortable with them because this is a man who's going to tell you what to do spiritually.

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This is the man who's going to shepherd your heart, your soul. Now, the flip side is that sometimes churches don't even know what they're looking for.

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They don't know what to look for. And sometimes they may have a prime candidate in their sights and they don't even know it.

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So sometimes that guy needs to step up and say, let me tell you what you ought to look for in a pastor and then here's who

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I am and then maybe I'll match that criteria. But most definitely there should be a getting to know you period.

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Now, that being said, I think it's very much like marriage that once the knot is tied, the church needs to make a commitment to this man.

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They need to commit that, yes, we know he's a senator, we know he's going to make mistakes, we know he's going to change things in a way that we're uncomfortable with, but we're sticking together, we're with him.

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And we're going to be a unified body for the sake of the gospel, for the sake of the lost in our community and for the sake of unity amongst ourselves.

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So once the knot is tied, you get behind him and you do everything you can to make his ministry successful.

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Steve, in light of the social media access that people have now, it seems to me, at least from a human level, human perspective, that it is even more difficult when a church is going through troubles with an elder or a pastor because you can get on social media now and with Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and these other things.

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When Proverbs 6 talks about things that the Lord hates that are an abomination to him, and a false witness who breathes out lies and one who sows discord among brothers.

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While the internet is wonderful for many things, including podcasts like this, it can be used to just grind away people and they just use it so they can sin more freely.

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How much harder is it in our era, in light of social media, for these very issues of churches just trying to love their pastors and pastors trying to love their church members?

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Well, it makes it a lot easier to sin. You know, I imagine in the church, you know, 1900, 2000 years ago, that in order to gossip, you had to walk across town and knock on somebody's door.

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You had to make an effort to do it or run into them at the market and so forth. Now, all you have to do is jump on your phone for 10 seconds and put a regrettable post on your

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Facebook page and you've just slandered somebody's character instantly with hundreds, potentially thousands of people.

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So it just makes, it's like verbal pornography. I mean, it's right there. It's accessible all the time.

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And so, you know, to me, we don't treat it any differently than any other sin. That would be in the category of the

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Titus chapter three. If a man is sowing dissension, and you warn him once and after twice, you have nothing to do with him.

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In our church, for example, we have a kind of a standing rule that we tell all of our members that nobody except the elder board will send a mass email out to the whole church, that that's nobody's job but the elders.

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And that's been a big protector for us. And so we've just been open about social media and how easy it is to sin with it.

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And it is no different than jumping on the phone and gossip, you know, different than any other form of sin. And so we do have to address it.

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But just because it's on your Facebook page, that doesn't mean it's exempt from judgment by the elders of the church.

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A few minutes to go, Steve. Tell me about this question that you placed in the book regarding accepting the loving discipline of the

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Lord. The question is, what has this taught me about myself? When we hear accusations, or someone is attacking our character,

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I don't know about you, I would imagine it's the same. I want to respond, I want to give a defense, an apology for who

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I am and what I've done. But isn't it good to reflect and say, well, while our great shepherd, he is perfect in his shepherding.

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What has this taught me about myself? And it goes for every trial that any Christian could be in, but elaborate some on what has this taught me about myself?

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Well, my assumption is that since Hebrews 12 says that the Lord disciplines those whom he loves, that means he disciplines every single

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Christian. And so, even if a guy comes to my office with ridiculous accusations, or just being one of those church members that nobody wants to talk about, but we all know exists, that you kind of wish would go to your neighbor's church, just the person who's difficult, in the sovereignty of God, he still brought that person into my life.

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Even if everything he's saying is baseless and difficult, and makes you lose sleep, and makes you roll your eyes, wondering how he can even say this, the

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Lord still brought him there. And so at the very least, what it does for me is it makes me question, am

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I responding to this, even though it's ridiculous? Am I responding to it in a way that's pleasing to the

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Lord? Am I responding to it in a way that demonstrates grace, and patience, and good shepherding, and not flying off the handle?

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Once even just a few church members learn that their pastor has a short temper, I think his days are numbered.

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I think his ministry is gonna be short -lived, or all the reasonable people are gonna leave, and leave all the scared people there.

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And so every opportunity, even if it feels unfair, or it feels unfounded, it's an opportunity to say, well,

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I need to learn about myself. How do I need to be more patient? How do I need to reflect Christ? How do I need to respond to this in a way that's reflective of Hebrews 12, three, to consider him who endured such hostility by sinners against himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

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And so every opportunity is that. And I think it would help particularly for younger pastors who are very idealistic to understand that probably sometimes the best thing they can do is keep their mouth shut, and nod, and listen, and say, thank you for your input, and leave it at that.

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Calvin used to say pastors sometimes need to fast from speaking, and that would be a good time to do that.

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And it gives me more reflection and pause to say, we need to be preaching as pastors who

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Christ is, because we don't need to talk about ourselves. We will fall short all the time, but the

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Lord will not. You have some great prayer requests in the book. Use whoever hurt me mightily for your kingdom purposes.

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Give me a heart overflowing with grace and forgiveness toward the person. I acknowledge that God, you're sovereign, and you brought this trial into my life.

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Steve, I loved your book, Shattered Shepherds. You can get it online, Crest Biblical Resources. Thanks for being on No Compromise Radio today.

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Thank you, Mike. It was my pleasure and privilege. Thank you so much. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life -transforming power of God's word through verse -by -verse exposition of the sacred text.

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Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston.

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You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

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The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff, or management.