July 1, 2024 Show with William Allen on “From ‘Transgendered’ to Transformed by Christ”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this very first day of July 2024.

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and put pastors luncheon in the subject line. Well, today is no doubt going to be one of the most fascinating interviews

I've ever conducted. It will be the first of its kind on Iron Trump and Zion Radio, although I have interviewed individuals who were formerly involved in the sin of homosexuality who had repented and come to Christ, including such notables as Dr.

Rosaria Butterfield, who was a lesbian and also a committed leftist and Marxist and tenured professor at Syracuse University who came to Christ and is now married to my friend

Pastor Kent Butterfield, who pastors a Reformed Presbyterian congregation in North Carolina.

But although I have interviewed several people formerly involved in that sinful lifestyle, if you could call it that,

I have never, at least to my memory, I don't think I have ever interviewed a person who is formerly so -called transgendered.

We all know as Bible -believing Christians that that is not a real thing, being transgendered.

Nobody can change the gender with which they were born, but obviously in our day and age it is a lie from Satan that is being proclaimed from the rooftops by the left and also being forced into the minds of little children in government schools where little children are being given drugs that will aid the process of so -called gender transformation and of course even to the lengths of surgery being performed on little children, utterly satanic actions being performed with the approval of parents.

But today we have for the very first time William Allen, which is an alias because he's trying to protect those in his life that may be in some way harmed or inconvenienced by his truth coming out, people who he was closely associated with and people who he cares about, including an ex -wife.

But William Allen is a man formerly deceived by the lies of Satan that he was a woman, and today we are going to be addressing from transgendered to transformed by Christ, a formerly gender -confused man's testimony of salvation and warnings to parents about the satanic

LGBTQ mission for your children. We'll also be hearing about a new book that is expected to be in print soon by my guest

William Allen, and I'm honored that this is his first interview anywhere. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, William Allen.

Well, thank you, Chris. It's good to be here. Thanks for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure.

And well, let's start off right at the beginning with your childhood, the kind of atmosphere in which you were raised, if it was a religious atmosphere or not, what kind of religious atmosphere, and then lead us to the point where you actually, as I said earlier in announcing the theme, where you were deceived by Satan that you were actually a woman, although you were biologically male.

I liked how you used the term so -called in the introduction that you did. I find that I'm using that a lot myself these days, because I want to be clear with people.

And let me just state also that I never, even as a child,

I never thought I was a woman or a female. I make a differentiation because a lot of people say things like they identify as or they feel like, you know, a woman trapped in a man's body.

And I never felt like that. In my case, from early childhood,

I just wanted to be a girl. Far back as I can remember, probably age five or so,

I had always wished that I had been born a girl. I knew

I was a boy. I knew my father was a boy. I knew my mother was a girl.

And although I wasn't aware of all the, you know, biological differences at that point, I still knew they were different and they played different roles.

And I still wanted to be a girl. Do you have any idea what that desire came from?

Was it jealousy about how girls were treated differently than you? Was it things that girls typically do that you wanted to do?

And so on. Good question. I can't really put a finger on it.

And for a good portion of my life, I always tried to figure that out.

In fact, even when I was in college and studying computer science, I started taking psychology classes, hoping I'd, you know, figure out why

I was that way. But I hear that a lot of transgender folks, they will describe being abused at some point in their life or had some sort of trauma like that.

There's another fella down in Texas and he tells a story about an aunt that used to just dress him up as a girl all the time.

And somehow he thought that was what was expected of him. I never, at least not that I can remember,

I never had any of those things. I can't remember. There's no abuse.

I had a very loving family. Was it a religious family?

We went to church. I was raised up in the

Methodist church. And my parents there, they sang in the choir. Was it a liberal or a conservative traditional

Methodist church? Well, at the time, you know, this is back in the 60s. So, you know,

I was a child at the time and I really couldn't, I couldn't tell you one way or another. You know,

I went to Sunday school and my parents went to Sunday school and then they would go to sing in the choir and I would sit by myself up in the balcony.

And, you know, my dad would always keep an eye on me up there, make sure I'm not misbehaving. But, you know, at that time,

I wasn't getting a lot out of the sermons. I didn't understand most of what the pastor was saying.

And I'd usually be in my own little world up there. I had quite the imagination life.

But I, you know, I got through it and then we'd usually go to lunch afterwards and go home.

And that was pretty much the extent. Early in my childhood, I do remember when

I'd be going to get there, they were tucking me in and we would say that prayer, you know, now

I lay me down to sleep. And then they would leave. And I remember a lot of nights crying myself to sleep and praying to God that he would change me in the middle of the night.

So at that point, I was aware that there's males and females. And I wanted to be a female.

I knew I was a male. And I was also aware of a God and the concept of God and that, you know, he created everything and he could do anything.

So in my, you know, childlike mind, I pray a lot that he would just change me in the middle of the night.

And I had other things that I was aware of. But I even, I can remember something going through my mind that if he did change me, you know,

I woke up a girl. I kind of wondered how would I, how was I going to explain that to my parents?

So it was an awful lot for a child of that age to deal with, you know, and of course back in the 60s, certainly not like today, you can't talk about those things openly.

And I never mentioned it. I knew I had to keep a secret. I had this innate feeling that this was wrong.

And, and the other thing too, is that I felt like I was probably the only one in the world that was like this.

And that was going to be problematic for a lot of years. Now you're saying, just to back up a little bit to clarify, you're saying that this was occurring in your mind from your earliest memories as a child?

Oh yeah. It's my earliest recollections. I can remember other things too, things, you know, toys that I had and things that I did with my parents, the house

I grew up in. And, but it's always coupled with that, that desire, that wish that I had been born a girl instead of a boy.

And this would have been, since you're saying it's the earliest memory you have, prior, prior to any sexual attraction of any kind.

Oh yeah. Way before puberty or anything. Like I said, five years old. And, and, you know,

I did, I did all the boy things, you know, playing with neighborhood boys and cowboys and Indians.

And we had the cap guns and all that. And we built forts in the neighborhood and we got into some mischief.

This was back in the days, you know, when kids kind of had free roam in the neighborhood and certainly in the summers and weekends, you know, you, you head out and mom usually says, just be home time for dinner, you know, we'd usually spend the whole day out there.

And, you know, if we ever got parched, you know, just find the nearest garden hose. And, you know, kids can't do that kind of stuff these days.

And I kind of wonder about the next generations, you know, how are they going to survive in the world?

So that's a side, that's a side thought, but yeah, I did all the boy things. And then, you know, in the evening

I'd go home and right outside my bedroom was a walk -in closet that was upstairs.

And it was a closet that my parents used to, to put their clothes that they didn't much wear anymore.

And so I would, I'd get in there and I would dress up, not dad's clothes, but in mom's clothes.

And somehow that gave me, it's hard to find the right word.

It gave me relief. It gave me peace. I got to pretend. And I honestly can't remember the first time that I did that.

I don't know the genesis of that behavior. I don't know whatever prompted me to do that.

I don't know if I did that and maybe that was, you know, from then on, then I had that desire or if I had the desire and then

I dressed up. I don't know. So this,

I'm assuming, continued into your teens when you actually reached puberty.

Did it also develop into homosexual attraction? No. Huh.

And that was a, that was another very puzzling thing for me. Yeah, it did lead into, you know, all through elementary school and high school and, and then in puberty,

I liked girls just like any other, any other boy.

And in fact, in high school I had, I had three steady, different steady girlfriends at different times.

Wow. You had a lot more girlfriends than a lot of normal, healthy old American guys have.

Well, you know, one of them, one of them was for two years even. And, and I still had that desire and it was just, you know, just try to imagine a kid going through this, especially at puberty time.

And especially back then, you're, you're about my age and nothing like this was even a part of thought or conversation.

No. I mean, did you think that you were literally going insane or something?

I mean, what was going on in your mind about this? There were times. Yeah, yeah. I just could not figure out how

I could be attracted to girls. And yet I wanted to be one. And, and even when

I was dating, you know, and still do it. I was involved in the church, by the way. You know, I came up in the church when we moved to Florida from Ohio.

We joined the big downtown Methodist church and I was in the youth group and choir.

And this, this would have been long before the Methodist church was openly promoting this kind of thing. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

So you actually reached a point where you met a woman that you fell in love with and, and you were, you got married.

Yeah. Yeah. I was in my early twenties. I had gotten out of college in Ohio and I relocated off to Oregon and working for a big tech firm out there.

And my, my father was an engineer too. And, and the company I went to work for was a company that built a lot of equipment that he used in his work.

And so he was kind of, it was kind of that, that pride, you know, that he had of me. And, and he, we, we had our moment, you know, it was kind of a love, hate relationship growing up, but he was proud of his boy.

You know, he, I was, I was in scouting too. Growing up and I was an Eagle Scout and he was, he was proud. That's my boy.

I'm proud of him. He's got an Eagle Scout. Was there anything, was there anything noticeably effeminate about you?

No, no. If you had known me back then, you would never have guessed. In fact, when

I did start telling people what I was going to do, they were just, they were stunned. Yeah. Kind of like, kind of like Bruce Jenner.

I'm not saying that you were an accomplished athlete like him, but he suppressed all of that very well because nobody in a million years until that reality show came out with his wife and stepdaughters.

Yeah. Yeah. No. And there were rumors starting to swirl around because he started to, but, but nobody, nobody before that ever would have thought for a second that Bruce Jenner was having this proclivity.

Right. Right. Yeah. And when I, when I met, uh, my future wife, we met on an airplane.

I was headed back for a family reunion in Ohio and she was going to Atlanta and, uh,

I was just looking to get some sleep, you know, during, it was an all night flight.

And, uh, I just asked her the obligatory questions. How are you doing? Where are you headed? And it turned into a conversation the whole way to where we had to change planes and, uh, we exchanged information.

And when I got to, um, Ohio, uh, everybody asked me, how was the flight?

I said, oh, it's good. Good. Just met the girl I'm going to marry. Huh? And they laughed at me. And, uh, and I said, no, no, she'll, she'll be here next year as my wife.

And she was. I can't say that I fell in love with her that night on the plane, but it was just one of those things.

You knew we, we came up the same way. Our families were very similar and just everything clicked, you know?

And when I got back to, uh, Portland and, and she got back to Seattle where she lived, uh, you know, we started dating and it was long distance dating at first.

And, uh, this whole compulsion that I had, this, this thing that I never asked for, uh, it's, it's, it went away.

And man, I was just, I was in love and this, this is the woman I want to grow old with and raise kids with.

And I was, yeah, I was happy. So these desires, these desires for being, uh, the opposite gender from which you were born, you're saying they disappeared.

You weren't just, you, you weren't just repressing them. You saying that disappeared for a while. Yeah, they subsided.

And I, I really, I had been praying, you know, and in fact, uh, before the morning of our wedding, uh,

I, I was praying and, um, thinking that, you know, there's,

I got a lot ahead of me here. And I, I prayed that, uh, you know, the so -called sinner's prayer and, uh, and got saved because I knew it wasn't saved at that point.

And, uh, but the thing was prior to that, I'd already been saved two or three times.

Well, you thought you were. Right, right. So, you know, by the time, you know, after I got out of college, it was the same thing.

Any, any sort of a milestone in my life, you know, I, I realized that I wasn't really saved. And even though I, you know, in the church growing, being active, participating, going each

Sunday, contributing, uh, I even served as a treasurer at one of the churches. Now, is this, was this still within the

United Methodist Church or were you in a different evangelical church? For the most part, uh, the

Methodist Church. Um, and when I had gotten out to the Pacific Northwest, I was trying some other churches.

I tried a four square church and a couple of different ones. And then, um, uh, there was a

Lutheran church too that I became a member of for a while. And that, that's the one where I was treasurer. But, you know, as I'm sure we're going to talk a little bit more about later, yeah, it's pretty obvious.

I wasn't even saved then. So, but, you know, I got married thinking I was saved and, and, uh, thinking that I prayed to God, I prayed for a miracle and I thought

I got it. And so, uh, yeah, we got married, had a happy life for a good year and a half, almost two years.

And then, uh, this old, uh, this insidious compulsion of mine reared its ugly head again.

Well, let's, let's pick up where you left off there where it reared its ugly head again when we return from our first commercial break.

All right. And if anybody wants to join us with a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

C H R I S A R N Z E N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state of residence and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And you may remain anonymous if your question is involving a personal and private matter and I could readily understand a conversation like the one we're having today would evoke questions from people that are, uh, very intimate and private.

Perhaps you either at one time, uh, believed you were transgendered or perhaps that is the case right now, or you have children in that situation or other loved ones or friends.

Uh, whatever the case may be, if you have a question that compels you to remain anonymous, we will obviously grant you that request.

But if it's a general question, uh, give us your first name at least city and state of residence and country of residence.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church, a

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Apart from any human merit works or ritual salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works and appropriate respect and concern to all who bear

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That's l -y -n -brookbaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Linbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves.

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So please go to royaldiadem .com and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with William Allen, a man formerly deceived by the lies of Satan that he was a woman, and we are discussing

From Transgendered to Transformed by Christ, a formerly gender -confused man's testimony of salvation and warnings to parents about the satanic

LGBTQ mission for your children. If you have a question, again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

You may remain anonymous if the question is about a personal or private matter, but if you are asking a general question, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

You mentioned you had reached a point in your marriage after a honeymoon period, as they say, where things were going great, you were thanking

God, you believed a miracle occurred, and then all of a sudden this gender confusion started rearing its ugly head.

If I could ask you, before you go into that specific development, did you have any children?

And for the risk of asking too many deep questions, was your sex life a normal marital sex life?

Yeah, no children. Yeah, normal sex life. We enjoyed each other very much, and like I said before, we had plans to have children at some point.

We talked about growing old together. We had our life pretty much all planned out, but yeah, this thing came back with a vengeance.

Was it something that triggered it that you're aware of? Not that I'm aware of.

I think it's probably because I had been ignoring it, or I had been not giving it the attention that it had demanded throughout most of my life.

Most of my life, you know, I could give it some attention just on a regular basis, you know, or whatever, and I could get through life okay, but not giving it attention, not giving into it, it seemed to actually make it worse, make it more powerful.

Now explain that, because the, I don't know if it's just me, but the immediate mental thought that I would have in regard to this is that not giving it attention was the best thing to do, but are you saying in order to truly present this to God and plead with Him for deliverance from it, is that what you mean?

No. You'd think that not giving something like that, giving it attention, would be the right thing, and it actually probably is the right thing, but you know, at the time,

I wasn't saved, that was still my condition in life, and I, you know, like I said, for a while I thought it had gone away, so it didn't even cross my mind, but when it started to come back, you know, that urge to give it the attention, which involved, you know, finding a private place to dress it up and just kind of pretending for a while, it seemed to give me some sort of relief, because that desire just to be a woman and about all

I could do about it was have that pretend time. Did your wife know about the pretend time?

No, not at first. Okay. I did eventually have to confide in her, because it was just taking over my life.

Wow. And of course, you know, we started to have some other issues.

You remember Dr., was it James Dobson I think it was? Yeah, Focus on the Family. Yeah, he had a list of the top 12 marriage killers or something,

I think eight of them probably applied to us, so, you know, things like don't live near your in -laws in the first two years, and don't buy a house in the first two years, and if you do, don't get a fixer upper, you know, and don't start a business within the first year, all these little things, and we did all those things.

So, there was that. So, there was some stress, but if it hadn't been for this thing, well,

I'm sure we could have gotten through it. But, yeah, this was not what she bargained for, and it got tough.

Did she try to stick it out at all after hearing this, what most likely was a nightmare to hear?

Yeah, maybe another six months or so, and she tried to process this whole thing, and I can't imagine what it was like for her to hear that, because she had pinned all her future on me, you know, and having a husband that was going to stand by her and take care of her, and I couldn't be that person all of a sudden, and it was totally new to her, and bless her,

I just felt horrible for doing that to her.

So, is she the one that filed for divorce? Yeah, yeah, she initiated it, and oddly, even though I knew that this wasn't going to work out,

I didn't want the divorce. It was a hard thing to deal with.

I understood it, but I didn't want it. But I think she was justified, of course, and then we did get divorced, and toward the end of that period,

I mentioned that the house was a fixer -upper, and I had been working on it, and she had already moved out, back to living with her parents, and I was trying to finish the house, the stuff that I was working on, because she was going to get that, and I wanted her to be able to have something decent that she could either live in or sell.

That was very noble of you. Well, I wouldn't say that, but at the same time,

I was really fighting depression. I mean, just the idea of divorce was hard.

I'm losing my wife, and I have to explain this to my family too, and I haven't even told them about this, but now they're hearing about that we're getting divorced, and I'm having to try to explain, make up reasons for it, and it was rough.

Over a couple of weeks, I just went downhill and started thinking about suicide.

Wow. And it got so bad that each day after working on the house, finishing that up,

I sat for hours in our spare bedroom with a gun pointed to my head. Wow.

And it was dark. It was a dark time, and I describe all this in the book, and I'll tell you, a lot of people have opinions about suicide, and that it's an easy way out, or it's a mean thing to do, and maybe all those things are true, but I got to tell you, there is a pain so bad that you think that you see suicide as a gift that will resolve that hurt that you're dealing with.

And I've seen it in others. I've known others that thought about suicide.

I've known others that committed suicide. It's bad. Yeah, of course.

And I was there, and it got to the point where I actually,

I did try to follow through. I tried to pull that trigger, and it didn't work.

Wow. It failed. Wow. By what I can only surmise is divine intervention.

Yeah. It was like the harder I pulled on that trigger, there was a force pushing the other way.

And I don't know if it was, looking back, I don't know if it was just my mind playing tricks on me.

Maybe God did intervene. But I can also tell you that that weapon was fine because I fired it since.

And yeah. Wow. Now, at the risk of adding insult to injury, a thought is overwhelming my mind right now.

And obviously, since you've repented of this, I'm assuming you won't be insulted by my comment.

Go ahead. But this seems like the height of selfishness.

Oh, yeah. Because not only does this, in your specific case, not involve homosexual attraction.

You, as you were saying, were not in any way an effeminate boy or man.

It's just this selfish desire to somehow identify as a female that just drove you to the point where you just couldn't repress it, put it behind you, or just constantly remember,

I've got this wife. We're happy. We want to have children. Even though this has reoccurred in my thought process,

I just got to put it behind me, knowing that this is abnormal and this is unfair to heap this upon the woman that I love.

It just seems like an extremely selfish act.

Even to add to that, suicide itself is obviously an extremely selfish act. But this concept, especially in your case, when it doesn't even involve sexual desire, it's almost mystifying, if you want to comment on that.

Yeah, I think you're right. At the time, though, I didn't see it that way.

But I also saw it as something that I never asked for. I didn't want it.

Now, shortly after the divorce, I found a support group meeting in Seattle.

I had found a similar group down in Portland before I had met my wife.

When I first discovered that, it was just such a relief to find out that there were other people like me.

Now, was this a support group that was pro -so -called transgender?

Yeah. So it was not really support. It was a trans—well, that's what they call it.

It was a trans support group. And I understand there's really no such thing as transgender.

I get that, and I say that. But in talking about it, I have to use some word. Right, right, right.

I haven't come up with anything better. Just like technically, even though I do it a lot in conversations on my show, because it's the common vernacular, but even calling a person a homosexual is not technically correct.

Homosexuality is an activity and a sin. It's not a person type.

It's not like an ethnicity. It's not like a religion, although they are equated with those things.

It is equated with those things in our day and age. There isn't really a homosexual.

There are people who have become enslaved to the sin of homosexuality, but they're not a people group, even though they are called that habitually.

Yeah, and as I'll describe later and also described in detail in the book, yeah,

I was a slave to this. It had complete control over me. And like I said, after the divorce,

I found that group. They usually had a – there was a process in the meeting.

They'd check in. I would go around the room. Everybody would say their name and talk about their week and everything.

And then after the break, there would be a topic of discussion. And once or twice, both groups that I went to, they asked this question.

If there was a pill that you could take one time only, and it would make all this desire go away for good and forever, would you take it?

Well, I'm sitting there in the circle and other people are going before me and they're saying, no,

I don't think I would take it. It's so much a part of me or I don't know any other way.

I've dealt with this for so long. They'd come up with all sorts of reasons why they wouldn't take the pill.

And it came around to me, and I'm looking at all these people wondering, how – what in the world are they thinking?

And it came to me to answer, and I said, yeah, I'd take the pill. Wow. Of course

I would take the pill. You know what's interesting about that? I remember having a conversation with you before the show about a debate that I arranged and moderated between Reformed Baptist theologian

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and Dr. Gregory Coles, who considers himself a side

B, as in boy, Christian, which is a group of people who, although they agree with Bible -believing

Christians, that homosexuality, when acted upon and brought to fruition, consummated physically, is a sin, and even lusting in that way or any other way is a sin.

They don't believe there is anything innately sinful about the condition or the state of being homosexual, and therefore they say that it's completely legitimate to identify as a gay

Christian. And Dr. White was refuting that idea, just as you can't—

As he should. Yeah, as you can't legitimately say that you're a murderer

Christian or a thief Christian and going on and on with any sin that you want to come up with.

It's ridiculous to have this unique category of gay Christian. During the debate—and keep in mind, this is a man who professes to be a born -again believer and evangelical—he said the same thing as those other people in your meeting.

He said that if somebody had a pill that would completely cure him of same -sex attraction, would he take it?

And he said no, still to this day. He said no because he actually believes that that same -sex attraction is a gift from God to him.

Oh, my. So that shows you how warped that view is. Yeah. But I want you to continue where you left off there.

We have to go to our midway break. And if anybody has a question, as I said earlier, give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

Only remain anonymous. If your question involves a personal and private matter, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed.

Dr. Joe Morecraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

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Before I return to my conversation with William Allen, our guest today, who was formerly enslaved to the sin of gender confusion, before we return to that conversation,

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I need a church in the subject line. I may be able to help you find a church as I have done with many people all over the world, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live.

So send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you could send in a question to William Allen, and we are discussing his life before Christ, being enslaved to the sin of gender confusion.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question is personal and private.

So we left off before the break. You were talking about how you had reached a point in your marriage where your wife, after finding out about your overwhelming desires to be a woman, she, within about six months, filed for divorce and left you.

And you said that prior to that, you two were enjoying a healthy, seemingly normal sex life as a married couple, that you are not struggling with or battling same -sex attraction in any way.

So if you want to pick up where you left off there. Well, yeah, the divorce became final, and we pretty much went our separate ways.

That's what she wanted. And she wound up selling the house, and I had moved to a boarding house, actually, in Seattle.

I lived with six other people. There was an awful lot of bedrooms and kitchens and bathrooms in this house.

At the time, it kind of seemed like the right place to be, though. I think being alone probably would not have been healthy for me.

But I was working as an engineer for a tech firm, and I had to get through it.

Divorce was depressing. It was sad. I lost a lot there, and I was getting through that.

And, of course, this uninvited—I call it an uninvited—predicament that I was in, it just kept getting stronger.

I had sought out counseling. I saw actual psychologists, and I even sought out pastors at different churches.

I told them my situation. I prayed for a miracle. One of the pastors said,

Well, maybe the fact that you can change, maybe that is the miracle.

Wow. In other words, he was recommending a sex change operation, as they call it.

Yeah. Listen, in my saved -but -not -really state at the time, even

I knew that that was out there. And I got up and ran.

Was this guy— I didn't even say goodbye. Was he professing evangelical? I don't even remember what the church was, what denomination.

I had actually been talking to the pastor. I just was calling churches and asked if I could set up a meeting with the pastor.

I thought it was a whack job, honestly.

Yeah, I think that's undeniable. Yeah. Even I, in my state, like I said, knew that that was not right.

I sought out a counselor who was familiar with transgender dysphoria, as they called it.

It was a listing in the DSM -3 back then. I think it's up to DSM -5 now.

What does that mean? The DSM is the diagnostic something or other that psychologists use for all the different mental conditions.

It's a listing and diagnoses, and they'll have a number and treatments and all that.

So gender dysphoria was in there. So at the time, it was treated as a mental disorder.

And I think to some degree it is today, but I think it's becoming way too accepted now. And people are fighting against that, to have it categorized as a mental disorder.

So I continued going on to those so -called support group meetings.

And I realized that I'm either—it got to the point I was either going to wind up dead or I've got to transition.

Because I couldn't. It was hard to get through a day at work. It was just on my mind all the time.

And so I made a decision, and I was going to transition. And I started the process.

And what does that exactly mean? Was it just pharmaceutical at that point, or did it go beyond that?

No, no. Oh, yeah. Oh, it went all the way. All the way, yeah. It's a long process, and I had to get a new medical doctor.

And back then there was a set of standards in place to weed people out.

It was designed to not be easy to do this, and it would take a lot of time.

And I had to have a minimum number of hours of counseling from a psychologist on the subject.

And then before it came time for any surgery, I had to get a second opinion from another psychologist in that same field.

And what year was this, approximately? This was 1993 is when

I started. Do you think that they still require those extra measures? Those extra—the standards of care,

I think it's called the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care for Transsexuals, that still exists. But I think the industry has thrown it out the window.

And I'll get into that later, because it's just way too easy to do it these days. So I had to have all this counseling.

I had to seek out a new medical doctor who was familiar with the process, and I started on the hormones.

And there was one designed to counteract the male hormone they put me on, and then also the estrogen, high doses.

And I was made aware of all the side effects and the risks, and there are quite a few.

But that's how powerful this was, and I wanted to continue. And at the time, too, I said to myself,

I don't want to do this if I don't have a hope in passing, that term passing.

Most of us old -school trans people, all we want to do is get this done and then blend into society and get on with our lives.

Yeah, like there is no way on the planet Earth that so -called

Admiral Levine passes. And it makes you wonder, why would anybody want to go through all the problem of whatever is involved in so -called gender transformation to become a very hideous -looking member of the opposite sex?

It doesn't make any sense at all why that would be satisfying to a person.

And I explored that quite a bit before I made that decision, and I got an awful lot of compliments.

And like I said before, nobody who knew me before would have ever guessed I was effeminate or would do something like this.

But I guess in the same respect, I didn't have overly large hands. I had small feet, and I was told

I had a cute nose or something. And it was an awful lot of compliments.

Today, which is a thing called affirmation, which I'll bring up again, too. I'll tell you that, that affirmation, gender -affirming care, that affirmation is like crack, man.

Got to have it. Give me some more of it. Where can I get it? Can't live without it.

And that just encourages you to go further in your journey, and it did me.

And I got to the point, yeah, I started the hormones and started letting the hair grow out.

And I had my beard removed with electrolysis, and that was a very painful process.

I had to have 100 hours of electrolysis. They take each follicle out of your face.

And expensive. It was 50 bucks a pop back then. I'm sure it's way more now. And the hormones themselves had quite an effect as well.

Changed your hair texture, skin texture changed, fat redistributed, grew breasts.

An awful lot of changes. And I even went through voice coaching. You know, one thing that irks me to no end today is these guys that, there are some guys that, they look like women.

You wouldn't guess. That would be a minority, I think. It's a minority, but they're out there.

Right. But the moment they open their mouth. Yeah. It sounds like a man inhaling helium.

Yeah. Well, some of them don't even try anything.

They still use their old man voice. Yeah, like Bruce Jenner. Yeah. Who I refuse to call

Caitlyn Jenner. I think if you're going to do this thing, come on, put some effort into it.

So. Sorry for laughing, folks. I can't help it. No, it's okay.

I wanted to pass. And so, yeah, I went to voice coaching. And after a couple of sessions of that, something clicked and I was able to,

I was able to modify my voice and it sounded feminine. Now, was a part of your desire to pass actually, even though you claim that you were never, never had a proclivity towards same sex attraction, was a part of your passing a desire to be sexually attractive to men?

No. Really? It was not. The desire to pass was simply to function in society.

Wow. And I was an engineer at a large tech firm north of Seattle.

And my original plan was to quit. Resign from there and then make this change.

And then I was going to start all over someplace else. But I had to tell my boss there because I needed to use him as a reference.

So I let him in on what I was doing. And I didn't want to bring grief to that company either because they had been pretty good to me.

It was a good company to work for. But I was going to leave. And then something weird happened.

And this is before the transition, but I'd already been on the hormones for a while. And I got summoned to the

HR office. And the

VP of HR was there and the legal counsel was there. And my boss,

I thought they were going to escort me out the door. And I still had another couple of months to go. But they told me that my boss told him what

I was doing and they didn't want me to leave. They wanted me to stay. So I did wind up transitioning on the job.

And there was a lot of people there that supported me. But I've got to tell you, after I got everything done outside the job and outside family or friends that knew me before, nobody knew,

Chris. I don't want this to sound like bragging, but I passed.

And I wasn't a great -looking woman or anything, but I looked like a woman. And to further clarify, you actually went through with all the surgery?

Yes. Yes. I had to live for a year in the opposite role before I could have the surgery.

And I went to Montreal. There was a surgeon there that did what's called a vaginoplasty.

And he used something called a penile inversion technique. And, yeah, so I had that surgery.

Wow. I did the whole thing. And then I got on with my life, Chris. At the time, writing about this in the book, writing that chapter, it was very difficult.

I put it off for months. I wrote other chapters before that one. Because in the early chapters, my childhood and teenage years and young adult and everything,

I tried to put myself in the mindset that I had then at that time. So when

I wrote about the transition, I tried to write about it the way I felt about it then, which was really hard for me.

Because everything has changed now. And it's something that I loathe. That's why

I put it off for so long. But, yeah, at the time, it was new.

It was fresh. It was novel. It was my new life. And I was able to get on with things.

And I wasn't burdened every day with these crazy thoughts. I was able to work and get things accomplished.

And I lived out my life. And that turned into a fairly successful professional career.

In fact, I even got to live and work in three different countries. I got to travel the world with the work that I did.

And a lot of the people that I encountered, they had no clue unless I told them. Did anybody ever say to you, excuse me, don't want to be rude or anything, but are you a dude?

Did anybody ever say anything like that? No one ever did. Wow. Yeah. Well, let's, unfortunately, we have to fast forward to get to the best part, which is you coming to Christ.

And it's a multifaceted thing because it involves a false conversion and then a genuine conversion.

So if you could. Yeah. I had a successful career for 20 -some years.

And at the time, too, I had been estranged from my father for 23 years. Back in 1993,

I had told my parents what I was going to do. And, yeah, that did not go well. In fact, he said something to me that night that became the title of the book, which is not man enough to be a woman.

And that statement by itself is pretty nonsensical. But he had that night in 1993.

He was pretty angry. His hope for his son and only child, really, you know, he was proud of me for all doing all these things.

And then all of a sudden, there's this boy that he was proud of. This boy wanted to be a girl that had to be devastating.

I can't imagine. I might not have handled it any differently the way he did. I don't know. But he just owned me.

So for 23 years, we didn't speak. I stayed in touch with mother. She didn't like what

I did either, but she still loved her child. And we had to talk clandestinely.

But what got me back, I had a career for many years. In fact, I even became a truck driver. I got rid of the corporate career.

I got tired of that and became a truck driver. And, you know, I was just one of the other girls. There was a lot of women in trucking.

And I got to tell you, if I hadn't been able to pass, that would have been pretty bad in the trucking industry.

But nobody knew. The fellows all taught me, treated me like one of the other girls, you know, were protective of me, even looked out for me.

So what got me back to Florida in 2015, my father was terminal.

And my mother was getting sick herself. And she had

I had talked to my mother one night and she had finally allowed me to agree to me coming down to help take care of her.

So they kind of disowned you then after this. My father had. Yeah. Yeah. But he was pretty much in the hospital full time.

He was terminal. He didn't have long to live. Just days, really. And my mother had become sick, too.

And she wasn't able to take care of herself. So she finally agreed to let me come down. And I told her,

OK, I'll pack up the car and I'll be there. I'll drive across country. I'll be there in five days. I got a call the next morning from my aunt and my mother had died during the night.

So I got a plane ride down and my aunt and uncle here picked me up at the airport, who, by the way, they had never affirmed what

I did either. And we my aunt and I had only recently started talking about a year before that all happened.

But they picked me up and took me into their home. And because my dad was in the hospital, my mom was in the morgue and I had a lot to do.

And. Through a series of events. My father and I reconciled.

Praise God. It was. Yeah, it was a nurse and my aunt conspired.

And it's all it's on the book. It's a it's a tearjerker. And did he survive to see you genuinely transformed by Christ?

No, unfortunately, no. But on his it was a deathbed reconciliation and then he died the next day, practically.

It was just a brief moment and it was it was a time that I was able to help him get through what he was going through to help to basically help him die.

And he was open to that. And he did. So. After that,

I was here for at least a year dealing with the probate and everything. And my aunt and uncle had been going to a church here and this

Baptist church. So I started going with them. And one day. The pastor had mentioned they were having a big beach baptism coming up.

Now, growing up in the Methodist church, you know, I was sprinkled as a baby, but that's not right. Baptism.

And I knew that. And. I, I signed up because I had never been fully immersed or anything.

So I signed up and somebody called me to talk with me and ask me questions. They want to make sure

I was saved and. Well, having grown up in the church, I knew all the stories,

Bible stories, I knew the basics. And I heard, you know, God, Jesus died for my sins.

And. I, I, when I got baptized and nobody at the church knew who I was for real.

They thought you were a woman. I was a woman. And you were going by the name

Maggie. Maggie. Yeah. In fact, some of the ladies there, they were trying to get me to join up with their clubs and groups and things.

And never did really. But some. After about a year or two,

I started. Really listening. I did that pastor. He started saying some things that.

I had not been familiar with, you know, being, being grown up and coming up in the

Methodist church and other churches. They don't they don't talk about sin.

And hell and repentance. But my pastor was and I was hearing things.

That I never heard before. And. Something started to click and I started going back through his archives and then

I found on YouTube, I stumbled on some videos by John MacArthur. Ray Comfort, Steve Lawson, Paul Washer.

Frank Turek, Todd Friel and and Votie Balcombe and more. And the thing that hit me.

Was that they were all saying the same thing. And. They weren't saying they weren't saying all the crazy things that we hear coming out of the prosperity.

Ministry and others in and they weren't doing all that. These guys were all saying the same things.

They might differ on secondary issues, but on the core issues, they were all agreeing. And. The thing that got me was.

It wasn't necessarily what I wanted to hear at the time. And that somehow lent.

Credibility. To what they were saying. I don't know why, but it did. And I started listening.

And. I started listening to John MacArthur's sermons. You and I talked before the show.

He's preached through the entire New Testament. Verse by verse, took him 43 years to do it.

I started going through all those sermons. And. I kept seeing Ray Comfort's videos.

How he. He throws the law in your face. And. You know, it talks about how many lies have you told?

And have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever committed blasphemy? Have you ever lusted after a woman?

And. Something. Something started to happen. I. I.

I always kind of saw my lifestyle as sin. And.

But what started happening was I started realizing. This lifestyle, that's not what's going to be sending me to hell.

I mean, it is, but that's the first time I ever told a lie. It's the first time

I ever dishonored my parents or didn't love God. Being born is what's going to send me to hell because we're born into a sin nature.

And all these things started coming clear to me. Like I said, I'd never heard people talking about sin and hell and repentance.

I never really knew that I needed a savior. And in the past.

Whenever somebody said, you know, Jesus died for your sins. I'd always heard that cavalierly in my head.

And that's how it remained in my head was cavalierly. It was no more important to me than my job or a favorite sports team.

But something was happening. And I just I couldn't get enough. I started reading the

Bible, which never had made sense to me before. But I started reading it. Now it's starting to make sense. And I was starting to feel convicted.

Now, granted, this happened. This wasn't an overnight thing. This happened over a period of a couple of years. I started doing more research.

I started getting into apologetics. I'd always had this blind faith. And when I heard somebody say that they believed in Christ because of the evidence.

I thought my head was going to explode. And I started looking more into that.

I found out about all the scientific evidence for God and creation.

Jesus and the resurrection. And I was just intrigued. And I just like I said,

I couldn't get enough. And being on the road and trucking, which I did eventually go back to.

I was listening to these things all day. Podcasts and sermons. And, well, in about 2020 or so, 2021,

I was right there, Chris, at the edge. I knew what I had to do. You mean 2021? Yeah.

What did I say? No, I thought you were. People might have thought you were referring to your age. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

2021. Yeah. And I was right there at the edge. Because now

I knew what was required to truly be saved.

Which apparently I didn't even know what that meant. I didn't even know what repentance meant, really. And I had said three or four times during my life that sinner's prayer, which is leading millions to hell.

I had said that and always thought I was saved. But now I knew I wasn't. And I was not ready to repent.

But one thing held me up. I knew I had to repent and put my trust in Jesus.

But this thing held me up. The question was, am I going to have to give up my lifestyle?

Am I going to have to go back to being a dude? And, man,

I just at the time, it didn't seem practical. For one thing, certain surgeries can't be undone.

And I was way more entrenched as William than I ever was as Maggie. It would be just a complete logistical nightmare.

And I thought, can I be saved and just go ahead and live out the rest of my life like I am? Because secularly speaking,

Chris, I was perfectly content living out the rest of my life as a woman. I was accepted by anybody, everybody, for who and what

I appeared to be. My best friend and neighbor knew me as Maggie. Called me her sister.

We were sisters about my age. We joked about growing old someday and wearing our dispensers and wearing our moo -moos, smoking parliaments and carrying our oxygen tanks around the casino.

She had no idea. And I felt guilty about that. And I started feeling guilty about all the other people

I had deceived in my life. Because a lot of relationships that I had, they were based on a lie.

And I was really feeling convicted. Which tends to happen, you know, when somebody throws that law in your face.

So it got to the point one night I couldn't take it anymore.

I knew I was a slave to sin. And it wasn't that was

I going to have to change. I didn't care anymore. I knew who and what

I was. And I couldn't live with that. I couldn't live with that now or certainly in eternity either.

And I cried out to God. I started bawling my eyes out. I cried out and confessed everything to God.

And I repented. I told him I don't want to be like this anymore.

I repent. Please change me. And it didn't matter what

I had to do. And it didn't come with any conditions. I didn't want to put any conditions on it at all.

I told the Lord, I said, whatever you want me to do, my life is yours.

I surrender. I give up. And it was shortly after that.

I mean, I kept crying for a good chunk of the night. But it was shortly after that days.

I started feeling different. And what used to be a feeling or a question of am

I going to have to change back? It changed very quickly. I want to change back.

I have to change back. I can't live like this anymore because this is a lie. I saw that lifestyle for what it was.

And I don't want to do this. I want to use this and glorify God. I want to tell people this is what

God did for me. I wanted to just proclaim that to everybody.

Praise God. And at the time, there were people in my life, some family, even friends, that they understood what had happened to me.

But, you know, I said, well, you don't have to really change back. You can still be a Christian. And I tried to explain to them it's not a matter of do

I have to change back or I don't have to. I have to change back. Because I had already started sharing the gospel,

Chris. Any chance I was on the road, being in trucking terminals, and there were opportunities that even just came up.

I didn't even go looking for it. And I was able to tell others about God and share the gospel.

But I saw that as very hypocritical, of course. And I started thinking about ways to get this change done.

And I'll tell you, it took two and a half years. I went off the hormones three and a half years ago.

And it was a very long, drawn -out process. And, of course, I had to save up some money for it too because it was pretty expensive.

And the surgery that I had to get was a mastectomy. And I started – first of all,

I told all the family I wanted to get them in the mindset, let them know what was going on. And I apologized to them for doing this to them again because some of my family had accepted me and some didn't.

And I felt really bad doing it again to them, changing everything up again.

Well, let's pick up right where you left off when we return from our final break. All right.

All right. And don't go away. We'll be right back. But I'll give it a shot.

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Make sure you mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're now back with William Allen, a former slave to the sin of gender confusion.

And he actually went through not only the pharmaceutical route of transitioning into a woman, so -called.

We know that can never be done in reality, but also the surgical route. And he has reached a point in his story where he realized that not only did he have to profess faith in Christ, but for his repentance to be genuine, he had to revert back to what he truly is.

A man. And I know that one of those people that you had to confess to was the pastor,

Dr. Willie Rice of Calvary Church in Clearwater, Florida, who actually baptized you unknowingly, believing that you were a woman when he baptized you.

And you had to confess this to him. Yeah. After the transition or detransition, which happened,

I finalized it last October, tail end of October. And I went back to work for a while as William, finally.

And I had stopped going to that church because I just felt like it was a mockery to keep going there, you know, as presenting as a woman.

And I was finishing up the book just last month,

May. And I had been putting off writing a letter to my pastor,

Pastor Willie. But I knew I needed to do it. And I finally buckled down and I did it. And I told him my story.

I gave him my testimony. I told him what had happened back in 2016 and that he had baptized me.

Told him that I deceived him. And I asked him to forgive me. And he did.

And what happened after that? Well, do you have that video queued up? Can you play that?

He got back to me and he said he wanted to use this at the tail end of a sermon that was coming up.

He was preaching on repentance. Are you able to play that, Chris? Well, if I do, we'll be out of time when it's finished.

So I do plan on having you back when your book is out and we could play it then.

Okay, great. Let me just mention the name of the book again. It's Not Man Enough to Be a Woman. And it tells my whole story and obviously early childhood and everything leading up to transition and then how

I came to Christ and detransition. But the last three chapters are devoted to calling out the trans movement today and the lies and the secret intentions of that movement and how it's destroying children.

Chris, it's killing me, man. They're transing kids that, you know, if left alone, they will grow out of it, most of them.

Eighty to ninety five percent of them will grow out of it. And I know this to be true because there's a huge prominence of detransitioners now, young adults detransitioning that were transitioned as children.

And they're in a world of hurt. A lot of them are sterile. They've got health problems, physical problems, problems with their bones and just so many physical issues and mental issues, of course.

And they realize that it wasn't the right thing to do. But now they've got to get through the rest of their lives less than what they used to be.

And it's just. It's made me angry and I'm speaking out against it.

And so that's that's my purpose now is to glorify God, telling my story and to speak out against this, this evil that's that's plaguing us now.

And it just seems to keep growing. And I got to tell you, Chris, you know, I've got a

I've got I'm embarrassed. I feel ashamed of what

I did. And there's a lot of guilt. And what helps me get past that is is is speaking out.

And I I feel that God is using me. And and I feel

I feel like in some respects, I feel like the the the lame man at the

Pool of Bethesda, you know, lame for 38 years. And and Jesus came and healed him.

And he was basically used. And I want to be used like that.

That's my purpose now. That's my number one. That's that's the main thing in my life right now is is getting this word out.

And so and also if people want to follow me on Twitter, it's

W .M. Allen, L .L. N. W .M. Allen. Twenty twenty four. At W .M.

Allen. Twenty twenty four. And that video we talked about is pinned to the top of that.

Anybody wants to watch that? It's a tearjerker, man. And I was I was in the congregation when he he did it.

He basically told my testimony and he did it in five minutes. And he just that's Dr. Willie got emotional to Dr.

Willie Rice. He got emotional, too. Yeah. We have we have a couple of questions from listeners and perhaps answer as briefly as possible because of the lack of time.

We have Doreen in Nixa, Missouri. Doreen wants to know, have you reestablished any kind of relationship, even a friendship with your ex -wife since you have come to Christ and fully repented?

I have not. Honestly, I don't even know where she is. Oh, wow. So she doesn't even know.

Yeah, probably that you've probably not. OK, I I think she probably got the word that I transitioned.

I'm not sure. I mean, I never told her you mean transition back. But and she probably doesn't and I'm sure she doesn't know that I've transitioned back if she knew

I ever transitioned in the first. Oh, OK. She didn't even know that. No, but I gave her what she wanted.

She didn't she didn't want any more contact. So I gave her what she wanted. And, you know, I think about her from time to time.

I pray for every day and and I hope she's doing well. And then Warren in Riverhead, Long Island, New York, wants to know, you said that the transition back to manhood was a several year process.

But were you dressing and identifying as a man and wearing man's clothes during that process?

Not not during the first part of the process. First, I had to save up some money. I had to keep working and save up some money.

I had to let everybody know what I was doing. I was employed and I did not tell them.

I took a leave of absence so that I could have surgery, the mastectomy, which, by the way, took months and months and months just to find a surgeon.

Because once I checked a lot of surgeons and as soon as they found out I was detransitioning, they didn't want anything to do with me.

I guess it just goes against their agenda. Wow. Wow. What hypocrites. Yeah. So this all this stuff about choice is just right when it comes from the left.

There's a load of nonsense lies. I was at the point where I thought I was going to have to go to a gender clinic in Tennessee that gives these things out willy nilly.

And just I said, identify myself as a woman who is transitioning to male and they would have done it.

No questions asked. But luckily, I found at the last moment

I found a surgeon in Miami who was willing to work with me. Wonderful man. And I went to visit him and we did all all the things leading up to that.

And then I had that surgery a year ago in May. And so after I healed,

I went back to work still as female. I had to wear breast forms, you know, and and but I had

I needed to make a little bit more money. And it was about three more months. And then

I resigned. And that that's when I started the whole name change process.

That takes a while. I had to go through courts, get a court order, name change, then driver's license change, passport,

Social Security, everything. And finally got that all done by the end of October.

And it was at that point. Yeah. Dressing as a man again. And and that's the point.

That's the point where you were rebaptized. Well, I went back to work first time as William for a lot of years.

And then I quit my job in February because they were working so hard. I couldn't get the book finished. I quit and I got the book finished.

And it was in May is when I wrote that letter to to my pastor and told him everything that had happened.

And like I said, he said he was preaching on repentance the very next

Sunday. And so they were having a baptism again that same that night. And he asked me if he could use my story.

And I said, absolutely, please. And and and he did. And that's what's in that video. He I honestly

I think he told it better than I could. But I was in that congregation that morning and he told it. I and nobody knew who

I was. I was just sitting there and trying to keep it together. And he told that story. And there were a lot of a lot of cheers and applause at a couple of key points.

Amen. It was it was it was emotional. Can you briefly explain the title of your book,

Not Man Enough to Be a Woman? Yeah, that was the night in 1993 when

I went home here in Florida to tell my parents that I was going to be transitioning.

Dad didn't take it very well at all. And he was getting angry. And some nasty things were being said at one point.

He went off on a diatribe about how about his six sisters. He had six sisters and one brother.

And he talked about how wonderful his sisters were. He's always adored them. And he told me about how superior women are to men in a lot of different ways.

Not always, of course, but, you know, so many different ways. And then he looked over at me and I was just sitting there sheepishly, kind of like I was a child again.

You know, being scolded. And he looked at me and he says, you're just not man enough to be a woman.

And at the time, I felt like chuckling like you just did. And of course, that probably would have got me punch in the mouth.

But so I had to suppress that. But that came back to me, you know, when

I started writing this book. And it seemed to me that that was the clear title. Well, we want to have you back with certainty when the book is out.

And we want you to be more detailed in your warnings to parents about what's going on in the government schools and even in leftist apostate churches promoting this hellish ideology.

And so we definitely are going to have you back, God willing. And please repeat one more time how our listeners can get in touch with you.

On Twitter, X, it's W .M. Allen, 20, 24.

Allen is spelled A -L -L -E -N. So at W .M. Allen, 20, 24. You can find me there and keep up with me.

I'm posting a lot of things, speaking out against transgenderism. And I'll keep status on there about when the book is going to be developed.

And Chris, one more thing I want to say real quick. You know, we said earlier, or I said earlier,

I didn't know why I was the way I was. I could never point my finger at anything in my life that had ever caused this.

And it always bugged me all my life. But I got to tell you, now I know why. It's because there's sin in the world.

Amen. That's the reason. Amen. Well, we are out of time.

Thank you so much for being such a superb and fascinating guest. And the next time you're on, we'll have more time for listener questions.

We couldn't fit any more in today. And I want to thank everybody who listened.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater