February 25, 2021 Show with Ryan Denton & Jerry Dorris on “Key Elements of True Evangelism”

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet

Earth, listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 25th day of February 2021, and I am holding back a laugh right now because I just got a text from a dear friend of mine that I have not heard from in quite a long time, and he knows one of my guests, at least one of them, maybe he knows both of them, but his name is

Ed Moore, pastor of North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens, New York, but I will mention what

Ed had to say in a little bit. He is a nut, I can tell you that. Excellent preacher and teacher, but also a nut.

But today we have a returning guest on the program, and we also have a first -time guest on the program, who both together are going to be addressing a very vital topic.

First, we have returning to the program, Ryan Denton, who was a pastor on the

Navajo Reservation before starting Christ in the Wild Ministries, which he has directed since 2016, and he is also an author and an outdoor evangelist or an open -air preacher and evangelist, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Ryan Denton.

Good to be back, Chris. And tell our listeners a summary, description of Christ in the

Wild Ministries. Sure, so we are intentionally engaging the lost outside the church on a regular basis, five or six times a week at abortion clinics, college campuses, downtown areas, homeless shelters and jails, pre -COVID anyways, and now they won't let us in.

But yeah, so we do everything. We try to funnel everything back into the church so we don't see ourselves as autonomous, necessarily.

You know, we are working to equip the saints and also to get the lost people into churches and disciples and things like that.

But yeah, primarily evangelism outside the church walls. And if anybody wants to look up more information on Christ in the

Wild, go to christinthewild .com, christinthewild .com.

And for the very first time on this program, we are featuring Jerry Dorris, who is pastor of Reformation Church of Shelbyville, Kentucky, which is a confessionally reformed

Baptist congregation adhering to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trepans Iron Radio, Pastor Jerry Dorris.

Thanks for having me on, brother. I appreciate it. Why don't you let our listeners know a little something about Reformation Church of Shelbyville, Kentucky.

Sure, Reformation Church is where I would call us a church plant. We kind of came out of a church plant shrub,

I guess, and I had been called the pastor, I think it was in 2014. And just as we met and stuff, we were

Southern Baptists at the time, and I just talked to the brothers about we needed to do something different.

We needed to be more forward with our theology. And I don't know if you know the typical route of being reformed, but you'll be in a

Southern Baptist church, it's kind of hard to... You get people come in, they find out that you believe in the doctrines of grace, and then they leave.

So we decided to replant our church, change our location, change our confession, change our name, everything, and we replanted on the 500th anniversary of the

Protestant Reformation in 2017, and the Lord has really blessed this effort.

And we're just super encouraged by how the church has grown, but more just to see our membership engaged in evangelism, engaged in confronting our culture with the

Gospel. There's a lot of people who are outside of confessional

Reformed Baptist circles, or outside of confessional Protestantism in general.

They scratch their heads, and they're wondering why, hey, you got the Bible, which is inerrant.

Why do you need this confession? I mean, are you adding things that are forced to be believed upon your members that are not in the

Bible? I mean, people come to all kinds of conclusions because they are speaking, and I don't mean this as an insult, but they're speaking in ignorance just because they don't know.

There are things I am ignorant of. In fact, everybody who knows me well knows I'm ignorant of a lot of things. But tell us about what it means to be a confessional church, just so people don't get the wrong idea.

Yeah. Well, confessional in the sense that you can know what it is that we teach as a church, how we understand the

Scriptures, how we are going to explain and teach. Everyone who comes into the church can quickly understand where the leadership's going to go.

Whether I'm in the pulpit or someone else is in the pulpit, the teaching remains the same because we all hold to the same confession.

And we've adopted the 1689s as opposed to, you know, other confessions, because for us, the 1689,

I liken it to orange concentrate, you know, the kind that your mom would get the frozen condensate.

A lot of people listening have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, a lot of younger people, I should say. I just aged myself,

I think. But yeah, so it's really, the 1689 is really concentrated in its theology, and so it's very helpful.

Members of our congregation actually read it from a devotional standpoint. They will read it, and it just helps them to articulate and to understand.

So if that answers your question. Yes, I have in fact always been a member of a—as long as I've been a born -again believer,

I was raised Roman Catholic, but was saved out of that in the mid -1980s.

And thankfully, providentially, I was saved in a Reformed Baptist Church, although it was not confessional at the time in an official sense when

I was saved there. Very soon after, I was saved by the grace and mercy of God.

It became a confessionally Reformed Baptist Church, and I've been a member of confessionally Reformed Baptist Churches ever since.

And as I was saying to you earlier, before we even went on the air,

Jerry, you are a first -time guest, so we have a tradition here. Whenever we have a first -time guest, we give a portion of the show to allow that guest to give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances or Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to Himself and saved you.

So if you could give us a bit of your story. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity.

Yeah, I was not raised in a church home, or my father actually left our home when

I was really young. I like to shock people by letting them know that I had smoked marijuana when

I was eight years old. It was the first time. It was just... That was the culture that we lived in. My mom remarried when

I was a teenager, and she remarried a man who was very charismatic and began taking us to church.

So I was drugged to church, kicking and screaming, really. And through that process,

I was confronted with the Gospel. I was actually at a charismatic revival meeting in 1984 when the

Lord arrested my heart. I was convicted of my sin, heard the Gospel, even with all the trappings and what

I would consider now false theology, still God regenerated my heart. And I was on fire for the

Lord. I remember starting high school soon after that and was literally open -air preaching in the school.

There was an annex in our school, and me and another buddy, we would go from one end to the other, and he would yell at me and say,

Hey, Jerry, what must I do to be saved? And I would yell back the answers to him, and so we would do that back and forth, and we were just radically saved.

The Lord has just providentially moved me along the path. I felt like the

Lord was calling me to go to the mission field in 87, went to Urbana 87, and felt some direction to go to Turkey from that, and then went to Bible College, met my wife, she and I went to Turkey as missionaries.

I can summarize it this way. So the Lord is transforming my heart theologically along this path, and I can genuinely say

I feel like I've been saved five or six times where, like, when you are confronted with the doctrines of grace, it's like, was

I ever saved prior to this moment, but yet there's fruit, and so I look back on my life in that way, and just am thankful that the

Lord continues to save me, continues to bring me along, and I'm just very thankful.

Amen. Well, I want to make sure that people who,

I don't know if I mentioned this before, but if anybody wants to look up more information about Reformation Church in Shelbyville, Kentucky, go to refchurch .com,

refchurch .com, that is the church where our guest, Jerry Dorris, is the pastor.

Now, I mentioned him earlier. Jerry, do you know Ed Moore? I don't recall his name, and I hope

I don't offend him if he... I thought that he knew you, because it was just a strange text to get.

See, Ed has got a very strange sense of humor, and some of the things that he says aren't necessarily on their face very funny, but if you know him, and if you ever saw his facial expressions while he was saying a certain thing, you might find him hilarious, but this will date you if you know who

Dorris Day is. He was doing a play on words here, because your name is Jerry Dorris, but he says, today is a very special day.

In fact, it's a Dorris Day, so okay, sirah, sirah, ladies and gentlemen, and he says, let me start off by asking, do you believe whatever will be will be?

So, that was our contribution from the insane Ed Moore of North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens, New York, and believe it or not, that song actually came up in a sermon by a very powerful

Reformed Baptist preacher years ago. I don't know if either of you have ever heard of Amresh Simeroth, who is a pastor in Trinidad, but I can still remember him in his very thick

Trinidadian accent yelling very loudly, warning against the kay, sirah, sirah of hyper -Calvinism.

So, that's something that we should never believe, whatever will be will be, as if we are fatalists.

But the issue today is, as I've mentioned before, the key elements of true evangelism, and let me start with Ryan.

Ryan, obviously, since we are titling this message,

The Key Elements of True Evangelism, there must be something that is a false version of that.

In fact, I have a feeling, my two guests would agree, that in the 21st century, the majority of evangelism that we hear in Christian media, that we hear on Christian radio, that we see on Christian television, that we read in the most popular

Christian books, is false evangelism. And, I am not broad -brushing, of course, there are many true pastors, true churches, true authors, and true evangelists that are faithfully and biblically evangelizing, preaching the gospel, but obviously, in our day and age, the church has become more and more like the

God. But, would you agree with that assessment, Ryan?

And if you could, before we go into some of the key elements, perhaps even give us a broad comparison and contrast the true evangelism with the false.

Sure, yes, I certainly agree with that, and I think the majority of Christians are probably doing it naively, and I'm sure we'd all agree on that, you know, they're not doing it maliciously or with any kind of intentional negative,

I guess, negative reasons for doing it. But it comes down to theology, and, you know, like we've been talking about before on past episodes, as far as just what the motive of evangelism is, and if the motive, if the primary motive of evangelism is conversion, now, we all want to see conversions, but if that's the primary motive, then the means will justify the end.

And so, that's what you see in most evangelism, whenever it's done in America today, you see really, literally, quite literally, whatever it takes to get people converted.

You know, in my context, I just heard a guy talking the other day, how he was saying, you know, there's certain open air preachers that are

Pelagian, and some open theists, and they see it as, you know, whatever it takes to get a big crowd, you can do.

You know, so if you need to call some people some bad names, if you need to be really vulgar, if you need to, like, whatever it takes to get the crowd, and then when you get the crowd, you can do whatever it takes to get the person converted.

And if the person gets converted, then it was all worth it. Whereas true biblical evangelism starts with the

Bible, the Bible being sufficient, and, you know, in all things, especially when it comes to evangelism.

And so, we look at the Bible, and we say, okay, what is God's means for saving people? How does this work out?

What's the chief end of evangelism? Like, what's the primary goal here? And the primary goal in biblical evangelism is glorifying

God, sharing the Gospel, leaving the results to God, because God's the one who converts people, and Christ's sheep will hear

His voice and follow Him. But it's not, do whatever it takes to get somebody saved, it's, we're going to glorify

God, and God is going to save whom He wants to save. And He does save, I mean, the history of Christianity shows that, the history of the

Church. So, it's a matter of being faithful to what God has said while doing evangelism, and that brings honor to God, and that trust, you know, the trust in God is what's ultimately our goal.

What you just said reminds me of something that occurred many years ago,

I believe it was in the 1980s, and it could have been in the early 1990s, I don't know, I can't remember which.

I was a young Christian, I know that, but my Roman Catholic sister,

Mary, said that she wanted to go to the Billy Graham crusade that came to the

Nassau Coliseum on Long Island. And, I explained to her that my church, where I was a member,

Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, which later became Grace Reform Baptist Church of Merrick, I explained to her that we as a church did not participate in the

Billy Graham crusade because of compromises that the crusade ministry and Billy Graham himself were involved in that we believed were very heretical and very dangerous, and one of those things was ecumenism that Billy Graham has even had on the podium with him,

Roman Catholics, and even liberal Protestants that deny the pillars of the faith, and basically pragmatism was a key element of the

Billy Graham crusade association, and likely still is.

In fact, if someone came forward, or someone comes forward at one of the crusades,

I believe they are likely going to continue something in that fashion even though Billy Graham has gone home to be with the

Lord, but if someone came forward to receive

Christ, you were told as a counselor, you were forbidden as a counselor to refer that person to a

Bible -believing church or any particular church. You had to send them back where they came from, which is insanity in my opinion.

But, I told her that I would attend this crusade with her since she was very interested in going, and the

Catholic church was promoting it, and I told her I would go with her so I could try to answer any questions she had after it was over.

When we were taking a bus there with a local Baptist church, I was saying these things to my sister about the ecumenism and so on, and I said to the pastor of that church that was across the aisle from me, and again, this was not my own pastor or the church where I was a member,

I said to the pastor, do you agree with my assessment of the Billy Graham crusade?

And he said, yes, yes. I said, why is your church officially participating? Souls are getting saved, brother, souls are getting saved.

So, he was actually a counselor, and he would obey the rules, not to refer people to a particular church.

So, that's a very tragic and disturbing reality, isn't it? Right, and with Billy Graham, I think later on he ended up saying something like he would be surprised if 5 % of the people that came forward were actually even saved.

And so, I don't know where that is, I think I read that, Ray Comper has a book called, I forgot the name of it now,

Your Best Life Now, I think it's called, it's a really good book, it's about the... That was a

Joel Osteen title. Well, yeah, it wasn't, he intentionally did it that way so that you would pick it up thinking, oh, okay, or you know,

I think it's actually called God Has a Wonderful Plan for Your Life, that's what it's called. Yeah, yeah, but it's, you know, the idea is, you know, he basically demolishes the idea that it's about numbers and it's about, you know, that Christianity is about easy believism and having your best life now.

So, but he mentioned that quote in there from Billy Graham, so yeah, yeah,

I totally agree, I mean, that's what we're dealing with. Evan, anything to add, Pastor Jerry? Just that strike home, we,

I remember having a young man who I was in high school with that we went together at that time to a

Billy Graham event near our area, and he supposedly gave his life to Christ and, you know, went through the whole process of decisionism and, you know,

Facebook reconnection with these people, and he's an atheist to this day, he hates the things of God, he was so burned on it because he was told something was going to happen, and nothing happened, and so he was left just, you know, hollow, and blames that, thinking that that is the experience of all those that profess

Christ, and that it's just a bunch of charlatans that are out there, never experiencing true regeneration, never being confronted and being undone by his own sin, and being rescued by Christ.

And just very briefly, because we don't want to derail the main topic, but Ryan, you had mentioned before Pelagianism, and Pelagius was someone who believed that humans were born without the taint of original sin, he did not believe in what the

Reformers would later refer to as total depravity, he believed basically a person was born as a clean slate, and he did not believe in the necessity of grace for someone to come to belief in Christ, and even the

Roman Catholic Church, which is well known to be a works -righteousness -false church, and he did not believe in the necessity of grace, and also the denial of original sin, but you could barely distinguish today your average

Roman Catholic from a full -blown Pelagianist, would you even agree with that statement, that extreme statement?

Sure. Yeah, no, sure. Well, you know, aside from the fact that the Roman Catholic, as you know, they will say that you're born with original sin, but baptism removes that.

Infant baptism removes that original sin. But you know, with even

Pelagians, I mean, you know, we usually don't see a lot of Pelagians, I would say, in Evangelicalism, but Semi -Pelagianism, that's certainly very prevalent, and I mean, that's just your typical

Arminian view of human nature, and it's, I would describe it as, so grace, they would say grace is crucial in salvation, but the initial steps toward Christian faith are to be taken by the free human will, the libertarian freedom of the human will.

And so, you know, it's kind of like, so sin is prevalent, you know, sin, most

Semi -Pelagians would, of course, agree that humans are born in sin, but that there's still an element of them that's capable of responding to the message.

And of course, what they're doing is they're protecting God, because if somebody ends up going to hell, they're protecting

God from being accused of the one who's sending them there. And we would agree with that, you know, we don't agree that, or we agree that the reason people go to hell is because they, you know, their nature is one that loves sin and acts on that sin, and so they're in hell because they deserve it.

But, you know, we would disagree that it's the freedom of the human will that actually saves someone.

We would say that God changes their nature so that they believe in Christ, so they have faith in Christ, but it only comes through the new birth, regeneration first, before they have faith.

Well, we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody has a question of your own, you can send it to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you hear something that you recognize that you are beginning to develop beliefs about evangelism that are in contradiction to your own pastor, your own congregation, your own denomination, and you'd rather not identify yourself publicly yet.

I understand that. Maybe you're even a pastor and you're going through that same period of questioning where you've actually fully come to abandon the belief about evangelism or beliefs and the practices of evangelism that are endorsed by your co -elders in your own church or your denomination.

Well, we would understand that you don't want to identify yourself perhaps at this point, but if it's just a general question, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Ryan Denton and Jerry Doris after these messages on Key Elements of True Evangelism.

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Well, we are back with our guest today, Ryan Denton, who is founder of Christ in the

Wild Ministries, and Jerry Doris, pastor of Reformation Church of Shelbyville, Kentucky. We are discussing key elements of true evangelism, and if you have any questions of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. And Ryan, perhaps you could start this portion by giving us some key elements of true evangelism.

I especially want us to cover things that you may know that we did not cover in previous interviews on related subjects that we ran out of time to discuss, and you were chomping at the bit to bring them up, so keep that in mind throughout the broadcast.

But why don't you tell our listeners what you believe the Bible teaches about elements that must be present if evangelism is going to be truly faithful to the

Scriptures. Sure, so I would say starting out, motive is obviously important.

So if you're thinking of Roman Catholics, or actually Roman Catholics is included, but think especially of like the

LDS, the Mormons, in fact we had two come to our house yesterday, or Jehovah's Witnesses, and we see them evangelizing a lot.

And Roman Catholics are at the abortion clinics a lot, you know. And the motive, now granted they would not agree to this necessarily, but the motive in part for them is salvation and a right standing with God.

And so in other words, the motive for them, in part, is I have to do this to please

God. Otherwise, the Jehovah's Witnesses, in fact, if they don't evangelize, then they don't go to heaven.

And so for us, the motive is not being right with God, the motive is

I'm already right with God, and so I do it out of thankfulness to God for what He's done. And you see some of this in Matthew 28, in the

Great Commission passage, and one of the glorious things about that passage is that it begins by Christ saying, all authority in heaven and on earth belongs to Him.

And the very end of that, He says, lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

And so He begins by saying, look to Him, look to Christ, and He ends by saying, look to Christ, remember that Christ is with us.

And so, you know, evangelism has to begin and end with Jesus Christ.

Now, I know that's kind of elementary in a way, but a lot of times I think we forget that, and we try to operate according to the flesh, according to our own wisdom, according to our knowledge, and I think that's what debilitates a lot of people from evangelizing, because they think, well,

I can't evangelize because I might encounter somebody who's smarter than me, who makes me look dumb,

I might encounter some persecution, whereas if you look at what's going on in Matthew, these disciples were about to go up against the world with the gospel, and they literally had nothing going for them except Christ.

And so if they can do it, the point is we can certainly do it, but we have to be looking at the same thing that they were looking at, which is

Jesus Christ. And so the key principle of evangelism, as far as the beginning of it, is

Jesus Christ, and in fact our worship of Christ, too. They worship Him before He sends them out.

They're worshiping Him on a mountain there in Matthew 28, and so that has to be our foundation for everything, trusting in Christ, relying on Christ, knowing this is

His work, He's going to build His church, He's going to use us, and looking to Christ in everything we do, and watch

Him work. Now, Pastor Jerry Dorris, as you know, being a

Reformed Baptist pastor, I'm sure you have likely heard things from other evangelicals who are not

Reformed. You have heard them say things that would basically amount to, if they were to hear the title of today's discussion that we are having, they would say, you have

Calvinists, three Calvinists discussing true evangelism. That is the absolute worst source of truth on evangelism, because that is the most aberrant and horrible element of Calvinism, of Reformed theology.

It's devoid of evangelism. There is no passion for the loss.

There is no concern for people to believe and repent, because it's all programmed like a computer.

God is just using us all as chess pieces and puppets, so nothing that we do even matters, and on and on and on I could go.

But isn't this, Pastor Dorris, the antithesis of what historic

Calvinism has always taught, and what true Calvinistic pastors, preachers, evangelists, and missionaries have always believed?

It's the antithesis of that. Absolutely. We have such a rich history, too, that we can look back on in Heritage of Calvinistic Evangelism.

We evangelize because we are assured success, and by that, we are always glorifying

Him. We are always worshiping Him. We are participating in what He has set forth to happen.

In Ryan's book, Even If None, we go out because we are worshiping

Him. So the Calvinist evangelist is, for us, when we go, it is an act of worship.

We want to have joy when we explain the gospel, when we are used to God to minister in whatever way

He sees fit to use us. And by success, we often want to talk about the effect is twofold.

There are those that God is going to call to Himself if He sees fit, but there are others that are hardened in their sin as well.

And so the evangelist is always doing what the Lord has commanded.

And so, going to Ryan's book title, Even If None Come to Face, we have the assurance of that, that that is going to happen.

It is glorifying. Worship is glorifying. Evangelism is glorifying.

Evangelism is worship. It is obedience. That is how we view it.

So often, we get that pushback as well, and I just kind of open up and say, well, this is what we do as a church.

So just to show you that evangelism is happening. We are engaging the world all around us.

So it usually shuts the mouth to see that there is evangelism occurring.

Now, and let me go back to Ryan, and of course,

Pastor Jerry, you could chime in as well. But isn't one of the elements of true evangelism the declaration of the vital truth that we are all sinners deserving of hell, and the one and only cure, our one and only hope is

Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And there is much of modern -day evangelism, and it's not just 21st century.

It's been going on for quite a while. But the way that Christ and the so -called gospel, which is really no gospel at all, is often presented under the name of evangelicalism today in megachurches, and in TV, and on radio, and perhaps even small local churches that are hoping to get big.

Jesus Christ is really just an add -on to make your life happier and more fulfilled, to make your marriage better, to make your relationship with your children better, to make you a better employer or employee.

It's not really the fact that people are going to be in hell because they deserve to be and they need

Christ. Do you think my assessment is right? Yeah, yeah. It's theology.

You know, when it comes to, I mean, one of the things that I guess was most obvious to me as far as Calvinism was concerned was just what the

Bible says about man, and how the Bible says none seek for God, and there's none who does good, no not one.

None are righteous, the heart is deceitful above all else, and we drink down sin like it was water, etc.,

you know, from Genesis to Revelation. It paints a very bleak but realistic picture of man, and that is, to me, what you're describing right now that we've lost in.

So that's not being preached. Human beings are not perceived in that category, certainly not by the world, but even in churches.

We don't see human beings as evil as they really are, and so on the one hand, we don't see them as deserving of hell, and so we start to waver on our belief in hell, and our belief of whether or not someone should go to hell, or whether or not our nice grandma who, you know, didn't love

Jesus, but she was really nice, and she was always, you know, good to us on Christmas and things like that.

Is she really in hell? And so that, of course, it's a truncated gospel, not only because of how it views man, but what

Christ came to do, and that's what you started out by saying, which is exactly right. So if Christ came to save humans who are basically good, but they just needed a little correction here and there, then it makes

Christ's mission to earth seem very weak, and shallow, and quite puny, and pathetic, really, that he would even be needed, and so that's what we have today.

Yeah, let's pick up right where you left off, because we have to go to the midway break, and folks, please be patient, as this break always is longer, the one in the middle, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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Before I return to our guests today, who are Ryan Denton and Jerry Dorris, who are discussing key elements of true evangelism,

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Ryan, I kind of interrupted you in mid -sentence before the break because I had to break away.

Do you have anything further to add? We were discussing right before the break how often, tragically too often, in modern evangelism, the whole concept of sin, the whole concept of repentance, the whole concept about warnings of damnation are absent from evangelism.

It's not even evangelism at all. If you could just pick up where we left off. Sure, yeah, and a quick reminder,

Chris, Jerry had a pressing pastoral matter that he had to take care of.

Oh, I didn't even know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so he won't be with us the second hour, but there was an email, and yeah, you can check that later, but anyway, so he texted me.

He said, send everyone their regards, and yeah, he was blessed to be on.

So what we were talking about was the depravity of man, and I think that's really the heart of the issue, and like I said, for me, whatever,

I mean, that was the most convincing thing for, let's say, for Calvinism, because it's so biblical as far as it's what the

Bible says about man, and then, of course, the interpretation of that by Calvin and other

Reformed theologians, but if you look at who man is, because they're radically depraved, and they don't seek

God, and they're dead in their trespasses and sins and things like that, well, that's where the

Gospel comes in, like you mentioned before the break. That's exactly at the point of contact where we bring the

Gospel to people who are dead in their sins, and what's interesting, and one thing that I think a lot of times we don't perhaps think of is, and I'm talking as Reformed people, considering that men are totally depraved or radically depraved, then how is it that we can communicate certain things that are true to them if they're dead in their sins, and that's because they're made in God's image, so that's the point of contact that we have with the lost.

They're made in God's image. Sin has radically disturbed that image and removed a lot of that, but there's still a trace of that in every human being, and so when we go to them with the

Gospel, this is the difference between us and, let's say, a more unbiblical theology goes, because we recognize right off the bat that these people, unless God is saving them, they're going to see the preaching of the cross as foolish to those who are perishing, and so that's why when we go to them and we have the

Gospel, we know that if they're going to be saved, it's God who's doing it. It's God who's going to regenerate them, who's going to save them, but that's also why we don't have to rely on gimmicks and pragmatism.

We don't have to rely on just the, like you mentioned, the emotionalism of altar calls and things like that, because it's the

Word of God that's going to do it. It's the Word of God alone that saves them. Now, you mentioned something that I think is wrongly used by some who are

Reformed. There is an element amongst us, as you are probably fully aware, where a church or a pastor might believe that using or expressing emotion in preaching, the appropriate raising of the voice, the thundering of the voice from a pulpit, that kind of thing is inappropriate because it is just another way of manipulating people's emotions.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that. Spurgeon, who was a thoroughgoing

Calvinist, wholeheartedly disagreed with that. Obviously, George Whitefield disagreed with that. Why is it that we believe that this is, as far as homiletics, very appropriate?

In fact, I think an element of the best of preaching is when a preacher or evangelist is not just, in a dry fashion, stating facts in an impassionate way, in a way that demonstrates, even if it's not true, it gives the picture, the impression that he does not really love what he's talking about.

He doesn't even think it's very important, because he's talking about things like he's reading the manual on how to repair a blender or something.

It's just devoid of any true concern for the hearer's souls, if you could.

So, when you think of any of us Christians, going back to the passage in Matthew 28, where they're worshiping

Christ, worship in itself is an act that's not dry, even if it's just me beside my fireplace and nobody's in the room.

I might not be exclaiming things with reverie and loud and everything else, but when

I'm thinking about Christ and I'm reading Scripture, there's an element in me that's being drawn away.

It's being drawn into what I'm reading. It's being drawn into the God that I worship whenever I pray or whenever I speak about God, etc.

Of course, in a sense, that's the way God made us.

We are emotional people. We do respond to certain things with passion and emotion.

Of course, the tension is between, okay, well... You know what?

This reminds me of Augustine. Augustine's view of music might be helpful here, because he saw

Augustine was so moved by music that it became a distraction when it came to what was the words in the music.

And so, he would notice that for himself, the words would drive him to passion.

The truth of what was being said was causing that emotional response,

I guess. It wasn't devoid of that. And so, if you think of an altar call, for instance, an altar call is very interesting because of the music.

It's not the words. It's the build -up. It's the music. It's the mood.

It's the lighting. It's everything besides the content that's being conveyed. And so, I would say that's the difference.

You know, when George Whitefield is out there preaching, and you're right, he's gesticulating and he's saying things that cause actors to weep.

The guy was filled with passion, but it, in part, was the words that he was conveying that was driving that passion.

And so, the words being truth. And so, yeah. And partly, I mean, again, it's the personality of the guy.

You know, I think it would also be... Yeah, I'm with you totally. I mean, it's nice to see passion when it comes to worship and preaching.

But at the same time, you know, I find that some personalities are perhaps just a little more dry.

And so, it would seem kind of funny for someone who has a drier personality to try to all of a sudden be like George Whitefield, you know, if it was artificially done.

But I think it goes back to the way God made us and the way that we have... We are emotional beings, but it's about what is driving that emotion, is what

I would say. And so, you know, when it comes to biblical evangelism or biblical preaching, in contrast to unbiblical evangelism or unbiblical preaching, the difference would be that biblical evangelism, biblical preaching is word -driven when it comes to the emotion, whereas the other is accessory -driven.

It's things outside of the Word that's driving that passion, if that makes sense. Yes, and we have a listener who happens to be a faithful and generous listener who supports

Iron Trump and Zion Radio financially on a monthly basis. His name is Grady from Ashboro, North Carolina.

And Grady says, Greetings, brothers. It's always astonishing when I'm sharing the gospel with someone, and they find out

I'm a Calvinist, and they say they didn't know we believe in sharing the gospel. Why wouldn't we?

We don't know who the elect are. My question, however, is something that I just had happen in the last couple of weeks.

I've never had a problem sharing with Jehovah's Witnesses when they come to my house, but last week

I got a letter from one. I know that they are... I know that they're told not to read any other literature, but do you think

I should send a letter back with the gospel? Excellent question, Grady, and guess what?

I got a letter, too. It's a new tactic or a new thing they're doing, but the address that that person gives as their return address,

I guarantee you if you Google it, it's the local Kingdom Hall. It's not that person's address.

So if you want to actually send that person a tract or something and just pray that they're not going to throw it out immediately, because that's what they're going to be told to do,

I would Google the person's name and the city and state where you live. You never know.

Or look it up on whitepages .com, and you might get an address, and I would mail, and hopefully it's the same person that sent you the letter, but mail them something in that way.

But do you have any comments about the idea itself, Ryan, about, you know, even if he was certain the address was a legitimate one, should you send literature to them knowing...

or send a letter back with the gospel to a person like this, Jehovah's Witness or anyone else?

Somebody's going to read it, is my thought. Whether it is someone at the top or someone who's on the ground,

I mean, somebody's going to have to read it to vet it. And so, you know, I mean, you never know.

I mean, the guy might read it and get saved, and I mean, who knows? I mean, all kinds of things can happen when you share the gospel.

So I would encourage that. There was a guy I know that what he does is he gets the, like, the junk mail in the mail, and it comes with, like, the return envelopes, and you put something in it, you know, various things.

And so he puts a gospel track in it, seals it up, because the postage is already paid for, so he puts a gospel track in it, seals it up, and sends it back.

And so, you know, somebody's going to encounter that track in one form or another. So yeah, however,

I mean, that's a great way. Well, thank you, Grady. And as far as, see, and of course, evangelism is a separate thing that is not always preaching.

There is a unique form of declaration of truth from a pulpit by a preacher to a congregation that should include evangelism, but it's not all evangelism.

So what would be the thing that sets apart evangelism from that? I think that all preaching includes evangelism, but not all evangelism is necessarily preaching, because evangelism would even include sitting next to a stranger on a bus and telling them about the

Lord, telling them about the need for the cross, etc. But if you could give your own comments here. Yeah, and even like Grady just mentioned with the gospel tracks,

I mean, that's, in a sense, evangelism when you're handing out gospel tracks, or when someone's reading the gospel track, because it's just,

I mean, evangelism is conveying the cross to a human being, to a lost person.

You know, the word is actually in Acts 8, it's gospelizing.

And so it's just, you know, literally sharing Christ. And the way I look at it is, whenever the content is shared, there's content at the cross, and I mean, that's evangelism.

And again, I think we try to complicate it, and it's really a simple thing.

Evangelism is very simple, as far as the idea, the definition of it, and it's sharing the gospel with the lost, period.

Amen. And one of the things that we have mentioned before, but I think it bears repeating, is that in history, a lack of belief, or a denial of, and even maybe an opposition to Reformed theology,

Calvinism, the doctrines of grace, it really robs a person of, if they're logically consistent, that is, it robs a person of persistence and patience in evangelism, doesn't it?

Because when you rely too much on the understanding that your oratory capabilities, or your knowledge, or your manner of evangelizing, and on top of that, the person's will, and the person's interests and tastes and circumstances in life, to whom you are evangelizing, they, if you have a worldview and a theology that says those things are the ultimate determiners of when a person and what person will embrace the gospel, you're going to be lacking, typically, in the patience to continue and persevere in trying to win them, because we know, as Reformed people, that His elect come out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

We know that His word shall never return void, and we have that extra added confidence that His elect are out there, and they will emerge from the sea of humanity, the sea of the reprobates, they will emerge out of that eventually, and they will come to Christ, and we just have to keep pressing on and moving forward and never becoming weary of our well -doing, as it were.

Am I making sense here? Yeah, yeah. Discouragement, I think, is the big difference, you know, between—discouragement and pride, also, between a

Reformed person who's evangelizing and an Armenian, and, of course, that's a generalization, but it seems to be correct, because, like you mentioned, a

Reformed person, the discouragement, especially in the times that we're living in, I mean, we are not living in a revival climate right now, you know?

I mean, we hope at one point there is somewhat of a climate like that, but at least in the West today, you're not seeing just a huge amount of people being saved, especially with the biblical gospel.

And so, yeah, what keeps us motivated? What keeps us going? Well, first of all, again,

I evangelize primarily to glorify God, and secondly, I know that Christ has sheep out there who will most definitely be saved.

They will be saved, that's a fact. And so that keeps me going, you know, despite whatever—however many zeros

I put up on the board whenever I go out and evangelize, I mean, I'm going to continue doing it, because—and by the way, something that the man in North Carolina referred to very briefly, talking about how people say, well, why would we evangelize as Calvinists?

And there's many reasons, but number one, to glorify

God. Number two, it's a command. I mean, God commands us to do it, we want to be obedient to that. Number three,

God himself did it, you know, God himself evangelized, and so we're imitating God, we're imitating

Christ when we do that. Christ came to seek and to save the lost. Number four, it's a great privilege to be able to evangelize that God would use means.

He uses human beings sharing the gospel to lost people to actually convert people. That's astonishing, because the human beings are very fallible, you know, they don't have all the answers, they don't always say the right thing, but that's the point, because whenever someone does get converted,

God gets the glory for it. And so that's why when I mentioned pride as the second difference, when

I'm looking at conversion as something that the human being has to decide to do, well, if that person decides to do it,

I'm going to, in part, chalk up the reason to something

I said, something I did, something, like you mentioned, my oratory, my knowledge, as opposed to saying, this person was dead in their sin, they went from being a, you know, a

God -hater to a lover of God. They were not seeking God, all these things.

I realize it's a miracle that only God can do whenever somebody gets converted. I have, in a sense,

I have no part in their actual conversion, although I was a means to that, because I'm a vessel for God.

But it's all about God doing it through me in their lives so that they get saved.

So, you know, it keeps us humble, because we realize that only God can do it. And going back to something that bears repeating, when a non -Calvinist or an anti -Calvinist says, why do you even waste your time evangelizing, evangelizing if God has this thing all rigged, who's going to be saved, who's going to be lost?

Well, not only does he command it, but it's the means he uses, as we've addressed.

And also, we could be deprived of witnessing those about whom we care, those whom we love, witnessing them come to Christ, if we do not participate in evangelizing them.

Am I making sense here? I mean, if they are the elect, they're going to be saved, but they may come to Christ in some part of the country or world where we don't hear about it, and they may die without us ever knowing that they came to Christ.

We may be robbing ourselves of that peace. Does that make sense? Yeah, sure. Yeah, and well, that's the other thing.

I mean, you know, God could have technically, I guess, converted people by writing the gospel like in the sky or something, like an airplane, the smoke behind it.

Maybe he could have dropped gospel tracts around the world. I mean, God could have done any of these things, technically.

I mean, he's capable of doing that. But in another sense, he's not, because he's made it clear that the means by which people are saved is by hearing the gospel or coming across the gospel from a human being conveying that to them.

And so faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God. How will they hear without a preacher? The gospel is the power of God and the salvation.

And whenever you look at Paul's letters, and in fact, in my, even if none, that book, and then also

I have a new book coming out with RHB in April called 10 Modern Evangelismists, I point out the same thing in that book, that when you go through Paul's letters, most of Paul's letters, if not all of Paul's letters, at some point show something like, when you heard us speaking the gospel or preaching the gospel, you received it in faith.

You know, when you heard this, you believed it. And so he's talking always about how these people have heard it and they believe it.

And so what he's doing there, and this is, of course, the Paul who wrote Romans 9 through 11. You know, I mean, this is the ultimate

Reformed passage, but that passage itself is an evangelism passage. And he's talking about how, you know, he would wish himself a curse so that his people could receive the faith.

I mean, he himself would have been a curse, you know, if it would have meant that they could be saved. So this guy's heart broke for these people.

He's writing the most Reformed passages in the Bible, but his heart, I mean, he is, he's an evangelist, he's a missionary, he's an apostle, of course, but the point is, is that the two go together because he recognizes that God uses human beings to save people.

And if someone's going to get saved, it's because someone has to go to that person with the information of the cross, because natural revelation cannot give it to them.

Special revelation about Jesus Christ is what converts people. And that's where we come in by, that's the way

God's set it up. And so, you know, we bow to that and we respond to that.

Hey man, we have to go to our final break right now. It'll be a lot faster than the other ones. If anybody has any questions that they'd like to ask, please send them in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

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This is Chris Orangzen, and this is our last segment of today's interview with Ryan Denton.

We were originally joined also by Jerry Dorris, and now

Ryan is going to be my guest solo for the remaining portion of the show due to an important appointment that Pastor Dorris had.

But I'd like you, Ryan, to, before we go into any more listener questions,

I want you to really summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, especially if it might be something that we didn't have a chance to bring up in other interviews on similar issues.

Yeah, I would again point out that there are reasons why Calvinists evangelize or should evangelize.

Jerry mentions historically that the tradition is because it comes from the Bible. There's a long line of Reformed believers who have always seen evangelism as a priority, and as Christians we should also.

But it's not just historical, of course. The Bible gives us reasons why we should evangelize, and a few that we forgot or haven't mentioned was, number one, evangelism will enrich your prayer life.

In other words, when I go out and I encounter the lost with the gospel, like you mentioned earlier with our lost relatives or lost co -workers, and you know, when we're actively evangelizing, we're going to have a more fervent reason to pray because we'll see how hopeless these things really are without God moving.

And so it's going to enrich our prayer life. It's going to help sanctify us. That's another one. It's going to help us become more like Christ as we're in the battle.

And a lot of times you'll see yourself, or at least I do, act in the flesh.

You know, when I'm engaging a lost person, just because of the nature of it, you know, it's difficult to, you know, things get heated or intense.

And I think we see this like on Facebook, you know. I mean, how many times on Facebook do we say something and then we think about it and we're like, oh man, you know, that was,

I don't know why I said that. Or, you know, all of these unfortunate wars that seem to take place on Facebook, just sometimes with evangelistic topics.

And so I never have regretted anything that I ever wrote on Facebook. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You and me both, Chris. That's right. We're the only one. Yeah. But you know, it just helps us to be more sharp, sharper and more refined in our

Christian walk to evangelize. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who has a comment slash question.

He says, I've been hearing from those ministers of the gospel, whom

I respect most, that one of the primary causes they believe in the downfall of Robbie Zacharias, who has been known as one of the world's greatest evangelists and has no doubt led many to Christ, is that he fell into such wickedness because he was not known as a churchman.

He was not known as somebody who believed a local church was a major element in his life.

There is nothing really all that well known about his connection to a local church.

Don't you think that that is an important aspect that every evangelist has to remind himself of, that we are not to be just mavericks traveling around spreading the gospel, thinking that is sufficient, that we don't need a local body where we are connected, where we are accountable, where we are faithful members, and that evangelism is just an important function and a primary role of every

Christian in one extent or another. But the connection to the local church is of primary importance.

Would you agree with that? Sure, yeah. Scott Smith and I actually wrote a whole chapter about it in our book,

A Certain Sound, and we were talking about open -air preachers and the danger of being cut loose from any kind of church body.

Like you mentioned, no accountability, and really too, on a practical level, for an evangelist not to be tied into a church is kind of odd in itself, because it's like, okay, what is the purpose of evangelizing?

Well, if someone gets saved, what are you going to do? I mean, are you going to tell them to go be an itinerant evangelist?

It's not to say, actually, I say itinerant evangelist, it's itinerant evangelist who are very consistent in their church, like Paul Washer comes to mind.

And so it's not to say itinerant evangelism is always without a church, but I think the parachurch ministry that Rabbi Zacharias also had,

I mean, and of course it was so big, I mean, it seemed like, it's almost, it reminds me of, in a sense, kind of like, you know, like Billy Graham, and of course,

Billy Graham didn't, as far as we know, wasn't doing those things, but it's similar.

Because we mentioned earlier that with Billy Graham, I mean, he comes, he does his thing, he leaves, and these people are just like, what do we do now?

And they usually wind up, I mean, Roman Catholic, and who knows what kind of church they're joining.

And so, yeah, I think for multiple purposes, both personally and when it comes to evangelism, yeah, we need to be connected to churches, and working with them, and trying to funnel

Christians into them, and disciple them, because it's all the body. I mean, everybody, we as evangelists need pastors and teachers.

We also need to be equipped in certain areas, and we certainly need accountability, and we certainly, and here's the other thing,

I mean, we should also be equipping saints. You know, I mean, evangelists, too, have a role to play in the

Church, not just outside the Church, and so they can be useful to help train other people who want to evangelize and things like that.

So, yeah, there's a plethora of reasons why the Church is important, and it's Christ's pride, and this is the way that He's instituted things, and it's healthy, and it's not only healthy, but it's a mandate that we have to be part of a

Church. Amen. Well, we are out of time, and I want to make sure that I repeat your website, and also

Pastor Jerry Doris's website for Reformation Church of Shelbyville, Kentucky. First of all,

Ryan Denton's ministry, Christ in the Wild Ministries, can be found at christinthewild .com,

christinthewild .com, and Reformation Church of Shelbyville, Kentucky can be found at refchurch .com,

R -E -F, an abbreviation for Reformation, church .com, R -E -F church .com.

Thank you so much, Ryan, for being such an excellent guest. I look forward to your return.

Extend my gratitude to Jerry Doris the next time you speak. I hope to have him back on as well, and I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater