Dave Armstrong

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three -three -four -one And now with today's topic here is

James white And we're welcome to the dividing line one of the more active contributors to my blog thankfully takes the time to listen to Roman Catholics on the internet basically and I used to spend time doing that and I listen to Muslims on the internet so there's only only so many hours in a day to listen to things on the internet and So Tiquid sent me some a bunch of clips and I was a little concerned.

He sent me a Tim Staples one Okay, that's cool. And a couple Jimmy Akin ones. Okay, that's all right but the problem is most way sent me was was

Almost he whose name shall not be spoken We're not talking about Lord Voldemort either

Nor pal talk either one No, we are we are we are talking about Dave Armstrong and and I haven't mentioned old

Dave for a long time I think he's probably depressed by that but you know, I just came to conclusion is it's like, you know, there's just really you know,

But he sent me some clips from an interview that they they did of old

Dave and I I just couldn't resist applying some of these because they're they're just If if for anything the the people doing the interview are at least interesting, you know

They're Catholics and so they're they'll give us some interesting questions anyways but so Dave's Dave's responses

I I don't know. Let me just give you some examples here and we'll we'll work through these and We can take your phone calls to you, but here's here's a representative sample and it's so often when we talk about apologetics a lot of times we discuss the fact that we have to have a working knowledge of the scriptures as Catholics because So often we will have scriptures verses thrown to us that May seem to contradict a church teaching when in fact the scriptures were originally compiled to support all of church teaching and it's actually can be found there if we

Are just familiar with it. Wouldn't you agree Dave? Oh, yeah. I mean a lot of the problem there is What's called proof texting is this technique that many

Protestants? Will throw out certain verses That that seem that appear to support their view like you said but then if we study a bit further we can find verses that Not necessarily contradict what they say, but but give it a fuller understanding like the faith and works thing is a good example of that because Protestants can quote a lot of verses about Faith and you know, you're saved by grace

Ephesians 2 9 But the very next verse says you're created for good works,

I believe it is without looking at it They leave that off Because that that gives a fuller

Catholic understanding of it Where if you just quote the one verse it's talking about faith and it sounds like faith alone

But if you skip the next one that that mentions works right in the same context Then it's almost like a half -truth.

You know, it's It's not really being fair to the passage of it

I As I think it was as it was rigid I think the ends got cut off of what was sent to me for some odd reason, but anyway

This is Dave Armstrong is one the only people who can leave me just speechless at times because So many of the comments he makes him a he mentions

James 224. It is so painfully obvious That he has never

Taken the time to seriously interact with the people he so often criticizes either that or There's one guy does the writing and there's one guy does speaking

I There's such a vast difference between the guy who can just Pour forth verbiage.

I mean the number of pages this man can produce in one night

Of screens full of text now, I'm not saying that any of that normally has anything to do with actually what's being argued but still

That's not the same person who we hear speaking when he does venture out into that context, but How many times have have

I addressed Ephesians 2 and Made sure to emphasize That to provide the proper balance that verse 10

Provides the perfect balance and he's not even sure which verse is saying what he clearly does not have it memorized

Clearly does not have Ephesians 2 8 to 10 memorized most I know do but some

And it's it's not just faith alone is for by grace. You have been saved

Through faith and that not of yourselves is the gift of God not as a result of works that no one may boast for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for or unto good works

Which God prepared beforehand so we would walk in them. This is this is the this tremendously balanced

Presentation, but it tells us very clearly our salvation is Solely of grace it is a gift of God it is not the results of faithfully plying the sacramental trade and making sure you get to confession and all the rest of stuff and indulgences and and transfers of merit from the

Treasury of merit and all the rest of stuff has nothing to do with it at all and It clearly places the good works as the purpose for which

God has created us We are his workmanship his creation in Christ Jesus so You just you just have to wonder what

Dave spends his time his time doing Talk about proof texting. I think one of the best examples of a proof text book.

I've ever seen is Dave The Catholic verses remember we'd started taking that apart years ago

And that's when he decided to stop having anything to do with anti Catholics at least for a while And then he got bored with that and then went back to it

I was I don't know if that was 4th 5th 6th 7th 20th time you'd said he was gonna do that. But anyway so there's there's there's first one and then

Well here I just the only way to do this is to play it Dave I'm curious in all the years that you've been doing this now

Have you noticed a shift or a change in some of the either arguments or even just the fundamental?

Questions that are being proposed today from Protestant Yeah whether from Protestants or even the fact that now we have quite the challenge to just mere

Christianity to To grab a title. Well, actually, I don't I don't see a lot of change when there is interaction

It's basically the same what I have seen. I was just thinking about this yesterday is the fact that Protestants are actually on the internet.

Anyway, they seem to be really daunted by the whole Catholic apologetic movement where They're almost in reaction that they don't even sorry.

I was gonna try to make it through that laughing Wait a minute we're daunted by the

Roman Catholic movement. Yeah. Well, okay. I Really think

Dave just has this absolute picture of himself as as this night Riding across the field banishing all armies just single -handedly by himself and I sit here and go, you know

How many times have I mentioned the fact that back in the 1980s? When Catholic answers was was getting in gear and especially toward ladies when

I became aware of their existence they used to publish a tract and he used to distribute a tract and they give it to Catholics and It said to Catholics if you hear a local pastor a preacher in a

Protestant Church preaching against Roman Catholicism Challenge him to debate someone from Catholic answers go to him and say we will send a representative.

Let's have a debate on these issues. I Guarantee, they don't make that tract available anymore So what actually has happened?

I mean it used to be, you know, Jerry Matta ticks when he was Catholic answers big gun You know was gallivanting around the the countryside and Remember the first people who challenged me to do a debate were

Roman Catholics it was Catholic answers and we took up that challenge and Haven't gotten another challenge a long time for some odd reason wonder why that is but anyway so the daunted

Um, okay. Well, I I was gonna try but to listen to someone seriously talking like that It's really hard to deal with this anymore

So they tend to just dismiss it and make mocking comments, you know generalizing.

There's always exceptions But they're they're really they don't know what to make of it, you know, it's a

Catholic's argument from the Bible it's not supposed to happen I Would have thought before that that just that's not in the realm of possibility

Yes, the Bible we assume as Protestants that we own the Bible, you know, you know, there are some

Protestants like that They're not the ones actually responding to take Armstrong But there there are some

Protestants like that and I would say all Catholics are like that in regards the early church fathers I had mentioned that on the last program was

You're not allowed to talk about the early church fathers. They're ours We're going to interpret them completely anachronistically in light of what we believe and so on so forth

So when you have a book like mine People really don't even try to interact with it because oh, yeah

It was it was because of statements like that that's earlier today It was suggested to me to obtain this sound clip

Just simply to have something to say in response to this now, I just want to point out before I play it

I had never heard of this song before Because I grew up listening to Doug Oldham, but I won't mention

What former former pagan? About this, but I think this is a very appropriate response to Dave Armstrong's assertion that we just try to ignore

Roman Catholic apologists and don't interact especially with his overwhelming books. The only thing

I can say to that is Oh Okay.

Well, anyway, how many you get all the emails on this one, buddy? And I'm more than you're more than happy to take him.

Oh, yes, you most definitely are and you're gonna get to do all of them anyways, da continued on I think the

Catholics are experiencing what you've just stated whether it's in a

Defense of our beliefs whether in apologetics or you're in the pro -life movement when you're trying to discuss the dignity of life

Even down to the fundamentals of a stem -cell issue that when we counter with just basic truths the the response we seem to get back when we can't be dealt with intellectually it becomes a

Situation where we are indeed mocked. Yeah, and you have you've experienced that as well, haven't you?

Yeah I mean, I should qualify and say that the mocking and ridicule is mostly from Protestants who are anti -catholic, but it is actually a small minority

So I don't want to give the impression that you know, like I'm anti -protestant But the anti -catholic ones because they don't think we're

Christian They simply cannot handle the fact that we come back and answer their arguments.

Oh, no, so it becomes personal and gets ugly sometimes Again, this is this again.

Is this a different Dave Armstrong? I forgot to ask TQ if this was a different Dave Armstrong than the one who has the blog who you know refers to me as Bishop White and And puts distorted pictures of his blog and it constant

Ad hominem and insults and all the rest is is the same guy this the warm fuzzy ecumenical

Dave Armstrong, is this a Dave Armstrong leather jacket in the tree? Which one is it? You know, it's hard.

It's really hard to figure out which ones which at times caricature is done of me, you know Yes, lag set up pretending to be by me caricature is done of me.

Yes Angel who? Is Angelus and that why it's just terrible even though of course it speaks the exact truth

Because people didn't know how to how to answer the argument. So they go to this sort of attack. Yep.

That's that's why The character was the character of done Dave is because we've never answered his arguments.

We they're just so overwhelming and so powerful You know, I mean

When I point out that he doesn't seem to understand what the offices amongst

Protestants are and he he adds Offices he goes scouring the internet for any kind of referencing about no, we've never answered any of Dave's Arguments not not once.

Nope God bless you Full of personal attacks, but of course

Dave Armstrong has never launched any of those attacks Yes, indeed well,

Dave, let's get into one of the ones that we hear an awful lot about probably as you're saying next to people infallibility and that to marry thing as we hear a lot is the notion of salvation and A rather common

Protestant claim that we as Catholics here is that works play no part in salvation God's grace saves us not our good works.

That's why Paul taught the doctrine of faith alone It's tough to talk about briefly, but I've tried to do my best in the book to explain that When Catholics talk about works in by the way,

I'm assuming I don't know this but I'm assuming he's talking about the one -minute apologist thing that I had addressed last year that that's the most recent one other than his self -published work on The early church fathers which we have a clip from he will later admit

I didn't have to do much typing on that because I was just cutting and pasting from the Internet And what was the first thing

I said about when I mentioned it when I when I said I had looked at it What was the first thing I said about this looks like just a bunch of cutting and pasting without context without any knowledge of the

Context what was being said anything like that? And I think that has been borne out connection with salvation it isn't work salvation like you said, but on the other hand

Scripture seems to combine the works when it when it talks about Salvation it doesn't omit works the way many

Protestants they'll say you're already saved and you do the works in gratification Thankfulness to God for saving you.

Mm -hmm. Well, you know, there's another another good illustration of theology matters because There are many

Protestants With a very shallow imbalanced view of the gospel and They have embraced a a concept and a viewpoint that is solely focused upon man so that man is the the king in his own salvation and The purposes are all focused upon man the whole purpose of salvation is what well to keep you out of hell and get you into heaven and That there's a bunch of that out there.

No two ways about it, and that's not what I believe I hope it's not what you believe

That may be the result that may be a result but first and foremost,

I have been emphasizing and I try not to do this to the to the point of Being imbalanced myself, but given the the absolute exaltation of mankind in our own thinking secularism humanism of our day

There really needs to be a counterbalance and I like starting off by saying that the gospel is

God's self -glorifying act in Jesus Christ where he redeems a peculiar people unto himself

And what am I doing there? I'm emphasizing that this is something God does He is not merely the big servant in the sky

He's doing this for his own purposes to his own ends and that provides the foundation for the concept that the reason that we do what we do that we do the good works that we do is

As Paul said he we are his workmanship creating Christ Jesus unto good works

Which what which God hath before Dane that we should walk in them. It is God's purpose

To recreate the life of Christ in us That's why we do the good works and instead of focusing solely upon man looking at it from the human perspective only

I think we need to start with the divine perspective and then descend from the divine perspective down to the human not the other way around and That really changes the emphases that you have

And you can tell if someone's actually criticizing what you believe Or whether they're criticizing

You know something else they're criticizing some some Humanistic Arminian perspective of the gospel just by the type of criticisms they offer but scripture doesn't really say that That's one of those things that They say but it's not really

In Scripture like they'll say faith alone But in James it actually says in James 2 22 to 26 you see man is tried by works and not by faith alone it specifically says the opposite of what the

Protestant claim is now you know as Many times as I've heard that You know

I Spent I don't know how long I spent writing the chapter on James 2 in the

God who justifies and I honestly can say you know if if it's out there

I haven't seen it or I've forgotten it, but right now. I can honestly say I've never seen a meaningful refutation or even an attempt at refutation of That chapter on James chapter 2, and I'll tell you one thing

Dave will call this mocking. This isn't mocking. This is a simple fact that man is not up to even trying He doesn't he doesn't have the skills.

He doesn't have the background. He doesn't have the training I don't need I would actually be very surprised if he's ever even read it

It really would be And I can guarantee you something if someone like you know I have Jimmy Akins Salvation controversy when

Patrick Madrid put something out I get it when Tim Staples put something out I get it Because you know you have to keep up with those type of things.

That's not what these people do That the Roman Catholic apologists. That's not what they do. They don't keep up with what's being said

They just I've said this many many times I mentioned this regards to Jimmy Akin you know a year ago, and then a year before that They don't keep up with what anyone else is saying who is providing a response to them it's it's almost it

I liken it to one of my clearest memories from being about three or four years of age and Running down the middle of County Road 15 with my mother chasing me, and I knew

I wasn't supposed to be there I knew I was supposed to be doing that and it was really stupid But I remember putting my fingers in my ears because I figured if I can't hear her yelling at me

Then I can't be guilty for That seems to be the attitude that the Roman Catholic apologists have to stick their fingers in the air

That's what Dave Armstrong was saying well. They just know they just ignore us now You know it's a hard hard game, but I'd interact with you.

You know because our arguments are just so overwhelming I don't even get evidence that they know what our arguments are half the time

That was one of the things that blew me away the first few debates with Jerry Maddox Was that the second time

I debated Jerry Maddox in the same subject? I think the soul scripture It was so obvious he was responding to the previous debate.

He wasn't responding what I was saying that night He was responding to what I had said in the previous debate, and we did it for the third time guess what he was just buying the second one and again not what

I was saying that night, and it's it just seems to be the The modus operandi and you see it you see it with Dave Armstrong, too

So I found that interesting those are the kind of verses that When I was converting What was very interesting to me that very interesting

Yes, the Bible seemed to say the opposite of what I had been told a lot of the Protestant denominations

Really are kind of sola scriptura. You know they want to rely on On the Bible and the verses for their foundation

So like you say yeah when you do come up with things from James so faith by itself if it has no works is dead

That's a little difficult to get around Yeah, I think that's why Luther himself was uncomfortable with James.

He almost Took it out of the Bible. He didn't in the end, but but he called it an epistle of straw

And he claimed that it contradicted Paul Because he believed wrongly that that Paul thought

That all works were worthless in terms of salvation. That's not that's not true because Romans 2 13 is from Paul it says it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God But the doers of the law who will be justified right man

I collect about seven eight verses in that one section Yeah, any of them like that well again

Romans 2 Yes, the doers law shall be justified Everyone who has fulfilled the law perfectly put your hands up, please.

I mean that's Paul's entire Argument it is amazing to me how many people

Continue to quote that text completely out of his context completely failing to see What the argument is the fact that Paul goes on to say hey?

We have all fallen short we have all broken that law and if you break it in the slightest way you are condemned by it

Therefore you need another means of the revelation of the righteousness of God, and it's in Jesus Christ, and they don't get it

There's you want tradition glasses You want you want an example of looking right at the text and and not seeing what it says there

There it is very clearly yeah It's always struck me that in dealing with apologetics that going back and forth with proof texting from Scripture For me it always just keeps going back to Matthew 25 that Lord Lord, and I will not know them because they did not feed the hungry clothed the naked helped the poor welcome the stranger

Visit the imprisoned. I mean, it's how much clearer can it be that we are to be doers

It's very striking in fact We are to be doers, I don't know how many times

I've preached that But we are to be doers It is not the doing however that makes you righteous before God my doing adds

Nothing to my standing before God my standing before God is solely and completely in the righteousness of Jesus Christ And I cannot add anything to that I do as Titus chapter 2 tells us because grace teaches me to But to make that performance the basis of the final acceptance before God That's the issue that's the problem.

That's the contradiction. That's the the vast gulf that separates I happen I did a paper recently on my blog that had to do with passages of judgment

When it when it talks about a person was judged internally to go to heaven or hell and What God said and I came up with 50 passages

That always talked about works and never talked about faith So, how do you explain that because I was asked by this one

Calvinist pastor and he said if you died today What would you tell God the reason to let you in heaven

That sounds like a lot of me think biblically about that What does the Bible say about that very question and I started looking up passages and I found things like Matthew 25

It's talking about works, you know, you fed the hungry and and this is

God talking that basically the reason Why he says that he's saving them

To catch that the reason why he's saving them is because they did these things

There's the difference There's the difference the reason why he's saving them is because he did they did these things

That is work salvation That is as as as clear a statement of as you can possibly have why does

God save anybody? The only New Testament answer that as to why

God saves anybody is because of Jesus and what Jesus does in their place period end of discussion

The whole purpose only reason that we do anything beyond then is Of course as we saw because God has foreordained

He has predestined that we should walk in those things when you change someone from being a God hater into God lover

It's going to impact the way they behave But I remember in fact, I was thinking of him just last night

Years and years and years ago the last man to die in the LA riots was a man named

Wally Tope and Wally Tope was a missionary to the Mormons and One odd fellow

Something Wally was Wally was unique. There is only one way of describing

Wally Tope did you you was you came you met him one time? Okay.

All right Wally was something else and I cut my teeth on his tract distribution techniques and and He went out with us to to Mesa and passed out tracks out there and that was quite an experience

And he was run off from from BYU I don't know how many times and so on and so forth

By the way, the reason he died in LA riots is he went out to pass out tracks to the rioters And outside of a grocery store, they beat him into a coma and I think it was what 18 months about 18 months later he he died of that of the complications, but Wally liked to emphasize

That you don't go baa baa to become a sheep. You go baa baa because you are a sheep that is the

The doing of good works comes from the changed nature you can do all the good works you want you can put on you can put on a

Sheepskin and crawl around all fours doesn't make you sheep You have to be changed internally and in the same way you can go around doing good works all you want but if you're not changed internally and It's not by good works.

Did you get get changed internally then? It means nothing and that was the whole point and of course he was echoing the the statement you'll find in the

One in the Westminster shorter catechism, and I recall or the longer catechism one the two that's that's saving faith is never alone true faith has results that's where the

Anti Lordship people have just completely lost the gospel and Toto They don't recognize the balance is found

Ephesians 2 8 to 10. Neither does Dave Armstrong of the Roman Catholics That's not to say there's no grace in faith

But you can't rule out the central importance of works also That's the point that I was trying to make central importance central importance definitional importance

There there you have it right there Yeah And then you will point out to that if if this particular discussion

Continues and and someone might say if a person does fall away that he was obviously never saved in the first place

We can counter that as well That's a now we get into the subject of assurance and it's it's fascinating to listen to Roman Catholics talk about the subject of assurance because There's no basis upon which they can possibly have it in their own system but again remember a lot of people that Catholics run into our anti Lordship folks who don't believe there's anything such a thing as false faith and So they normally are reacting to that We will continue listening to Dave Armstrong and to take your calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

We'll drive back Hello everyone, this is

Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

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Thank you Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be

James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day?

The charges are as follows Prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org and we'll go back to the dividing line

I'm listening to playing for you and I'm listening to Various clips sent to me by James Swan who evidently has gotten tired

Of being the primary object of the derision of people like Dave Armstrong and our

Slave figures, I'll get James to play some of this on the dividing line They'll get mad at him and I'll go after him again for a while and give me some peace and quiet so evidently that worked really really well because logical problem with that because If you never know if someone's saved or not

In other words if they fall away, then the person says he never was saved. He never was a

Christian Then how can you be? Sure right now, you know that person who's done that, you know, you know who

I could have if I had had more time You know who I could have played saying almost the exact same words

Standing in a Protestant Church, you know who I could have done doing that Dave Hunt you bet you bet

Absolutely smack dab out. In fact, when is by the way? Yeah, Bartimaeus is in channel. Maybe he can tell us when is one of those debates again in Toronto with Dave Hunt?

Debating three four five twelve one hundred fifty people at once. I forget what it is Yeah I could just say that's just it's just gonna be incredible.

I think that's coming up Fairly fairly soon. I think I thought it was in February.

It would happen I had must be March must be early March or something like that. I don't know but oh this Saturday This coming

Saturday up. Well, hmm Oh boy I'm I'm Friday and Saturday.

All right. Well, I am really hoping that they are gonna have a high -speed duplicator there and Bart will will will make it worth your while to get us recordings of that stuff

ASAP because I'm I'm definitely definitely before that February 22nd 22nd

Wow. Hmm That's coming right up. So It's going to be a very very very interesting encounter there.

But anyways, yeah, this is the same kind of argumentation That is presented by the anti Lordship folks.

They're just coming at Here's the center point the Catholics coming from this way with all their Sacramentalism and then

Dave comes at this way with the anti Lordship stuff to where there's no such thing as false faith and Over here you've got well faith isn't enough and so you've got to do all these other things that depends on who's gonna be saved

It's from the Catholic perspective, but then from over here. Hey, all I have to do is say I believe and your

Ticket is punched and there's no such thing as false faith as long as someone has believed even once they're saved

Boom and you go on from there and neither one of them can make heads or tails out of entire sections of scripture

But that's what you get can't be sure that they're safe because they don't know the future is what it amounts to They don't know five years from now that they'll

You know be caught with a prostitute or something and then all their friends will say what a Christian see what he's doing

So you can't be absolutely sure I think Catholics have a great deal of assurance.

We call it moral assurance You examine your life like when you go to confession And if you determine you're not in mortal sin

You're in good graces with God and you can be Assured that if you died right then you would be saved now, you know, it's interesting you hear that and you go

Hey examine your life when you go to confession and see if you're not in mortal sin. Hmm well problem, of course with that is aside from this whole idea of going to a

Sacramental priest and no such thing as priests in that context and New Testament things like that. But aside from all that You also have the the issue of what is mortal sin and the fact that you know, you'll talk to one priest

You'll think something is a mortal sin talk to the next priest and you think something isn't a mortal sin and all the rest that stuff but The real problem is this where does assurance come from I Mean I take the position and I know there there are people who disagree on the nature of Assurance and its relationship to faith and things like that.

I understand that but as I read first John, especially And the context of the key text that most people cite in response to something like what

Dave Armstrong is saying here And that is first John 5 these things I've written to it. You might know that you have eternal life

As I look at that text I ask what are the these things Well, these things is the rest of the book of John and what has

John told us? Well, we are to love the brethren If anyone denies Jesus come to flesh, he is the

Antichrist Etc, etc there are all these things that are given to us in that context and So Is it not the case, you know?

My understanding is is that assurance is something that you grow in Just as you grow in the grace and knowledge of the

Lord Jesus Christ You grow in an understanding of the gospel and the application of the gospel to your life

So too as you experience God's faithfulness over your life and as you examine yourself just this past Lord's Day, I read the scriptures in the service and We're in the

New Testament the morning Old Testament evening And I read 1st 2nd Corinthians 13 and there

Paul says test yourselves examine yourselves to see whether you're in the faith What does that mean? What kind of a basis can you have for testing yourself examining yourself,

I think that's a very very important issue and It is not, you know, there is a balance.

I've said many times as I grow older I'm more and more convinced that the the key element in the

Christian life is a development of balance that it is imbalanced and almost always catches people and Eventually causes problems, you know, it's you know,

I don't like using analogies like this, but I think it's it's somewhat appropriate If your tires are not aligned properly or balanced properly you can get away with that for a while, but eventually

Eventually you start having problems and the life of that tire is going to be greatly Decreased if they're not in proper alignment and proper balance.

That's all there is to it and The same thing is true of the Christian life. I mean if you don't have balance You are going to you may for a while, you know, if you're standing on just one foot you can do that for a while but eventually something's gonna come along and throw you off balance and you're not going to be able to stand firm because you're gonna be knocked off balance and And So is the same thing in this area on the one side you have the apathetic person

The person who just is presuming upon the grace of God doesn't care about what God's demands in their life are anything like that On the other side you have the navel -gazer

Who can never have joy never have peace never rejoices salvation because they're always going.

I'm just not sure. I'm just not sure What about that? Oh, I send over there. What about that? I think even my doubting is is evidence that I'm not really you've got the two extremes and As in most situations, the the truth is not found in in that kind of imbalance, but but found in recognizing that you have

Texts and scripture that exhort us to rejoice in our salvation You have texts of scripture that exhort us to examine ourselves to see whether we're in the faith

You've got it. You got it hold both of them. They're not contradictory to one another They do require however maturity in the

Christian life So it's not like we're Catholics are walking around scared to death of whether or saved or not.

I haven't done that. You know, I've been in both camps I don't sit around worrying about whether I'll be saved or not.

I want to be sure to To follow God be vigilant, but not to worry about Not to worry about that's what makes me think that the ends just sort of got cut off on Dave I'm also curious especially in the last but 10 -15 years.

There's been a real Resurgence in the study of the Church Fathers and their writings and how it really truly

Compliments not only the scriptures but also sacred tradition. Has that been something that you've become more interested in?

Here we go. Now. Remember Dave just put out the Church Fathers were Catholic and This is a

Lulu Publication so what that means Doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad

But it means it was not edited by anybody else who might go you know and So there's there's no, you know controls on it type of situation and I said when it first came out

I said look Someone this is like someone sat down with the electronic version of jurgens and just poured all this stuff together it shows no knowledge of Any responses to this it shows no knowledge of?

Other things that this particular father taught that would be that would eat for honesty's sake.

We would have to cite it To give a balanced perspective of this particular individual

That's why I said right from the start and so here's what Dave says As a matter of fact that that's my last book that I actually wrote that I publish on Lulu Sort of a self -publishing thing is a book called the

Church Fathers were Catholic and and I collected all these passages that That sort of indicate

Catholic views and Categorize them by major theological themes

And just collected all these passages That was easy. I didn't have to type much because I was cutting and pasting from the

Internet mostly Because you can get all the father's writings pretty much and No, you can't

You can get the 38 volume Erdmann set you might be able to find a little bit more than that But a large chunk of some of the major fathers is still in Latin.

They're still coming out and when they come out They're not cheap And so you're left just with what you've got in that situation.

Does he not know that evidently I guess Yeah, I think it's it's it's really central to a discussion with the

Protestant about Because they like to think that the fathers are more like them that this is whole debate with Protestants They call themselves

When they first came on the scene, they call themselves reformers Now before he gets into this argument

Protestants like to think the fathers were more like them How about how about at least this

Protestant and most serious ones? I know of allow the early church fathers to be

The church fathers, how's that? I I'm not the one who has to try to prove

That the early church fathers were reformed Baptists because they weren't okay want to hear me say it again they weren't

But somebody else has to prove that the early church fathers were Roman Catholics You see their dogma requires this of them.

And so they do so I can let them be what they were and Just as there are people who are writing books today

Who call themselves Christians and the books are not worth the paper they are printed on So that has been the case down through the ages and there are some people who wrote books in early church and the books stink

Okay You can look at certain early church writers and you can go

Wow this guy really did not have any meaningful knowledge of for example the writings of Paul and As a result his perspective is really really really skewed one direction and it's it's just bad

I Don't have to turn him into anything. I can go here's somebody and he you know, the scriptures even talk about people who are

Untaught and unstable they're the ones who who twist the scripture their own destruction remember and Then there are others who are taught and stable and most of us are a mixture.

Are we not? So I can let them be who they were. I don't have to turn them into something else

That's unfortunately the burden that the Roman Catholic has to bear which means Supposedly going back to the early church.

No, I argue that that's not really a reform. It was a revolution or revolt because they departed from That's the argument that I make in that book and elsewhere.

They actually departed from what the father's taught They weren't going back to them they're going on to something else that never was taught like faith alone or scripture alone.

I Have over a hundred pages about the scripture alone issue in the father's in that book showing that they didn't believe

So I suppose that's his attempt by cutting and pasting from the Internet To provide a counterbalance to such works as the

Webster King 3 volume 1100 page set I Don't know

I it is it is really sometimes you listen to this stuff and you just go Wow Where where did all of this come from?

I I don't know but You know, I've I found 50 passages in this

I got 100 pages again. Who does that remind me of? Sorry, but it reminds me of Dave Hunt Well, I can't mean that because of all these hundreds of other passages that say

X Y or Z it's that kind of argumentation is grossly invalid because it assumes

The very end of its it assumes its own conclusion. What do I mean by that? Well, obviously when

Dave Hunt says well that past John 6 can't mean that because it contradicts all these hundreds of other passages

What is the assumption? The Dave Hunt has correctly interpreted the hundreds of other passages and Every time we get into an in -depth analysis of one of his favorite texts

He abandons it and says well, it can't mean that because of all these other hundreds of passage Well, let's go to one of those and then well, there's these other hundreds and it's a never -ending cycle

You can't nail somebody like that down because their ultimate Authority is not actually the scriptures.

It's their tradition and that's the same thing in dealing with the early church fathers or anything else

There's always a a mechanism to get out of the the bind that you find yourself in and That's that's exactly what what

Dave does. So those are the clips that were sent to me from from good old

Dave Armstrong and I'm certain that I will see within the next two days a long blog article over on about how terrible and horrible and everything else that I am but I just I just This this is my final message to Dave Armstrong Yes, indeed there you go, we just need a little honesty so You see

Micah's comments and channel right there Billy Joel on the DL No, it's not the first time we actually had had guests before Maybe we could get

Milo to do some special cuts for us Milo redo three dog night

That'd be good that'd be quite interesting we will we will say that so anyway Do you have one other cut to get to here a little bit more serious

It's an amazing thing when Tim Staples is a little more serious than the person That's hmm, all righty, but gentleman calls in with a

Apologetics question some Protestant somebody was Basically asking a question about why

Jesus rebuked Mary When he was 12 years old If Roman Catholic views are true, and I don't mean that's sort of silly argument, but it was fascinating the response that was offered

And it's almost like Staples recognizes. I need to sort of fix this because the response that he offered at first You know,

I'll stop it and make comment on it But then he sort of has to I wonder if he really did feel the fact that this was in essence

Causing him a problem with the way he interprets things. Let's listen to it It's a great example of I said

Jesus which which means reading into the text something that's not there There you know,

Jesus doesn't reprimand her and say hey, how dare you lose me? That's simply not what it says it says

You know, no you not that I would be about my father's business or as some translation said in my father's house that's kind of a more

Not really what the Greek text says but but At any rate, no, you're not

I'd be about my father's business. So it's not a reprimand at all But he is simply saying and there's a lot of you know

Rich theology that could that we can draw out of that text, but I think the immediate thing you want to say is

That that's not what the scripture says It doesn't say he reprimands her for being separated from him for four three days

So I would I would tell him to you know to use a line from st Paul in 1st

Corinthians 4 6 don't go beyond what is written It's it's it's better to exegete the text.

What did the words actually say rather than bringing in your own? opinions and such now if I stop right there

I Just go excuse me Okay, they're looking at Luke 249 at that point let's apply what

Tim Staples just said to Luke 128 and if you do that the entirety of modern

Roman Catholic theological development and subject to Mary Collapses in a heap.

There's nothing left of it If you consistently apply the standards that were just there were just enunciated

I have to jump in on that because Nuh -uh is not an apologetic And that's what he just did this way.

Uh -huh. Uh -huh. Oh Well at least what he said about is a Jesus Is completely valid let the words say what the words say then hold these folks to that Standard when they start looking at Kakar to men a at Luke 128

Hold these folks to that standard in So many of these texts hold them to the standard in 1st

Corinthians 3 in purgatory hold them to standard in Romans will they and Does Tim Staples recognize what he just said they see this is a situation where he's trying to respond to somebody reading into a text

Something that he doesn't agree with and there he says, oh we have to let the original text stand But see he has to realize that's that's his bread and butter

He has to do that to substantiate all these later Roman Catholic developments and so I think that weighs heavily enough upon him that he needs to make some corrections and How would he actually be able to infer something like that?

well, I think he he is not really even inferring it he's got a a Preconceived notion that he's reading into the text

You know, you know you're and you know in his defense We all do that.

We all come to the scriptures. I think I think it was Steve Ray I heard say one time that no matter who we are

We're reading the script scripture with a particular pair of lenses on if you're a Baptist you've got

Baptist glasses on I think is the way Steve said it, you know to when you look at the text and We all do that You know, we as Catholics We come to scripture with more than just scripture

We have our tradition that really brings out a richness to scripture that you would not have otherwise

But I think the difference is in the Catholic faith That now let me just stop there for the richness that it would not have otherwise

See, that's that's how you get away from Luke 128 It's an angel greeting

Mary and it becomes the basis of this huge Massive Theology that the complex and with with all this and how do you get that from from from an angelic greeting and So that's that's that's just richness that's not reading anything in the text no, no, no, no

We're not reading anything into Luke 120. We're just seeing in its fullness Because of our tradition why couldn't the other guy say that I?

Mean the other guy can pick I think I can find early church fathers who agreed with him

So does that not make it tradition? What I find interesting is that he goes through that whole discussion with this guy

But the one thing that's totally missing from the argument He's making is to actually respond and say no it actually says this

He never tells you what in his mind it says no at all Positive exegesis is a little bit tougher than just the negative.

We do not read into a text The tradition never in other words the tradition never contradicts

Scripture the tradition never, you know in a sense, you know add something that isn't there

But really brings out in a in a richer fashion What is there and helps us understand to put it simply, you know,

I've used this before Jerry on this broadcast If I were to say the words to you right now put they get ready folks this this is a real rich illustration

That really does not address the fact that oh you better believe they're reading into Luke 128 the kitty on the table

And I stole this from Jimmy Hagan, by the way. Mm -hmm put the kitty on the table. Well, what do

I mean? We need a context and able to help us to say now if I was Standing in a pet store put the kitty on the table has a definite meaning

But if I was at a poker game, it has an entirely different meaning. That's what we're talking about The tradition the context good exegesis of Scripture involves all of that So good exegesis of Scripture evidently the scripture alone cannot provide you with the context of the poker table or the pet shop, but the mishmash of contradictory statements found throughout the length and breadth of the early writings of the

Christian Church can provide you with what the immediate Context of Romans does not there you go folks gives us a context in which the words

Have a richer and deeper meaning There you go. I assist

There you go. I I Just put up last week go go see the final statement that I made in the

Pacwa debate on the solo scriptura from 1999 where I start out Stacking up all those books all those books from Rome and say so what you're telling me is all of that stuff makes

Romans 5 1 clearer than when Paul actually wrote it to the Romans In fact, you have to wonder could the

Romans have even understood Romans 5 1 before all that stuff came along Well, the wonders and glories of Rome.

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