Believer's Baptism (Part 1)

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Welcome to Have You Not Read, a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of Scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the

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Saints. Before we dig into our topic, we humbly ask you to rate, review, and share the podcast.

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Thank you. Welcome to a new segment here at Have You Not Read. I'm host

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Dylan Hamilton and with me are Michael Durham, Chris Kiesler, Andrew Hudson, David Kassin.

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And since we do not have a great title to begin with, we're going to start with a working title you may have not read.

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And we'll pass it over to Andrew to begin this segment. All right, so we had been wanting to do this type of segment for some time.

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A question came in previously asking about the, I don't know if the term was validity, but maybe biblical -ness of infant baptism.

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I had been wanting to study baptism more. I had, I don't know, been wrestling with some claims that had been given by some internet

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Church of Christ ministers concerning baptism. And I asked an elder like, hey, let's talk about this.

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He gave me this helpful book, which is an anthology of essays about believers baptism.

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I also have another personal interest in this, and that is that my son is asking about baptism.

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So this is a good opportunity for me to be fully convinced and also to be a good disciple and to disciple him.

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So without further ado or anything like that, we're going to be covering Believers Baptism, Sign of the

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New Covenant in Christ. This is edited by Thomas Schreiner and Sean Wright.

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This is an anthology which has chapter by chapter different authors.

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So let's dive into it. So simply put, if I were to summarize what this book is claiming, or the claims it puts forth, is that the scriptural obedience of disciples to their master is in the performance of and in the submission thereto baptism.

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We do this, this being baptism, after the command of Christ.

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And I would point specifically to the Great Commission in Matthew 28, 18 through 20, saying that all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

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Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the

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Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you, and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

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This disciples baptizing believers, or making other disciples, is also appealed to authority in what you may find interesting in 1st

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Peter chapter 3 and the section 18 through 22. Now most people might point towards this about baptism saving you, but I want to point out for now, we'll come back to this text, in verse 21 and 22,

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I'll read, there is also an antitype which now saves us. Baptism. Not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to him.

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So we have the testimony in Acts and here specifically in 1st Peter that this is a matter of Jesus's authority and his person and work.

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It is also at the command of Christ. So moving from that, there's a section in the foreword that talks about some popular for their day, or rather we have come to know their names as missionaries, the

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Judsons, William Carey and George Whitefield, and the large role that immersion by the confessing faithful played in the turn of the 18th century.

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Moving on from there, the book goes into chapter 1 which is baptism as recorded in the

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Gospels. So John's baptism is like one of the first things that we see in the

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Gospels. However, John's baptism is not the baptism in the name of Jesus.

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This is not the same thing. So if you would, we can go to Mark chapter 1. Mark chapter 1, 1 through 8.

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So this is the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as it is written in the Prophets.

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Behold I send my messenger before your face who will prepare your way before you the voice of one crying in the wilderness prepare the way of the

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Lord make his path straight now John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins then all the land of Judea and those from Jerusalem went out to him and were all baptized by him in the

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Jordan River confessing their sins okay so this is John's baptism the baptism of repentance now

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I know we talked about this is the baptism according to the

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Gospels or as recorded in the Gospels I'm gonna move over to Acts 19 verses 1 through 6 to provide a parallel or contrast so in Acts 19 it happened while Apollos was at Corinth that Paul having passed through the upper regions came to Ephesus and finding some disciples he said to them did you receive the

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Holy Spirit when you believed so they said to him we have not so much as heard whether there is a

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Holy Spirit and he said to them into what then were you baptized so they said into John's baptism then

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Paul said John indeed baptized with the baptism of repentance saying to the people that they should believe on him who would come after him that is on Christ Jesus so when they heard this they were baptized in the name of the

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Lord Jesus and when Paul had laid hands on them the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke with tongues and prophesied okay so John's baptism is not

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Christian baptism it is not the baptism as commanded by the Lord to his disciples did

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John have authority to baptize in the way that he did maybe I'll open that up to you guys what what authority did

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John have to baptize people for the remission remission of sins well there was certainly the prophecies pointed forward to the one who would be appointed as a forerunner like Malachi 3 and 4 exactly there was a messenger lowercase

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M for the messenger capital M and so you're referring to Malachi chapter 3 verse 1 which says behold

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I send my messenger and he will prepare the way before me mm -hmm exactly and what

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John was doing in preparing the way for Christ there's a lot going on but to focus on the baptism there was baptism in Judaism when you converted to Judaism as one who was outside one of the initiation rites was to immerse yourself in a pool of water having quoted the

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Shema Deuteronomy 6 4 and for John to be preaching in the wilderness people coming away from the holy city coming out of the holy cities and so called coming down to the

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Jordan River we remember the background of Naaman having to wash in the dirty

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Jordan and for them to be baptized John was calling them to convert away from something to something and what he was calling them to was an anticipation of the

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Messiah he was very clear that what he was doing with his baptism was only preparation one was coming after him who was greater than he was he was not even worthy to untie his sandal so the one coming after him was greater this was all in preparation and Malachi 4 it says behold

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I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the

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Lord and he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers lest I come and strike the earth with their curse and Jesus identified

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John the Baptist as that Elijah in one Jesus asked that same question that you asked like what authority

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John baptized in Matthew 21 they're asking Jesus by what authority do you do these things and he says well answer me this question and I'll answer yours

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John's baptism was it by heaven heaven or by men and like well if we say by heaven then why don't we believe it if we say men they'll beat us up so we'll say we don't know and Jesus like then

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I won't tell you right so we have John the Baptist basically speaking with the authority of Malachi 3 and Isaiah 40

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I mean we have the the voice of one crying in the wilderness is quoted in all four

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Gospels so the authority that John has is as a forerunner but the the question there on the table is by what authority is he baptizing for repentance you know is it for the remission of sins is he baptizing he's a for repentance and the way

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Michael you just described it was he was telling them to come out of the old

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Jerusalem into the wilderness and become real Jews yes very much so when they came to be baptized when the

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Pharisees came to baby be baptized he refused to baptize them and he said you need to bear fruits of repentance right so when we read baptism for repentance in the text it's baptism upon the basis of repentance and John refused to baptize the folks until he saw fruits of repentance first he said

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I'm not gonna baptize you until I see fruits of repentance sure what what do the tax collectors need to do what are the soldiers name exactly yeah and so there was no point there was no point in him baptizing them this very public statement of conversion to the you know to the committed hope of the

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Messiah who is on the brink of being revealed there was no point of being brought into that preparatory religious movement unless that repentance had already been and so what is he doing he's calling them to faith in the

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Messiah the Messiah has not yet been revealed but he's calling them to faith in the

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Messiah by all the shadows and realities of the Old Testament he could muster so moving on from that in Mark chapter 9 we see the the scene of Jesus transfigured on the

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Mount and so Elijah is among those who appear but the disciples asked him saying why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first and Jesus answered them and said indeed

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Elijah is coming first and restores all things and how is it written concerning the Son of Man that he must suffer many things and be treated with contempt but I say to you that Elijah has also come and they did to him whatever they wished as it is written of him so in the same way that the scriptures will be filled about this one who came the

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Elijah Jesus said that this has happened this was John the Baptist and also yet to be fulfilled is the

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Son of Man to be treated with contempt and the gospel writers emphasize the the the ministry and the down to the clothing and habits of John the

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Baptist in a way that echoes the descriptions of Elijah in the Old Testament yes I failed him to read that portion that would have been a great parallel I apologize for that so let's move on to Jesus being baptized then

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Jesus was baptized by John right why why did when

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John protested what was the reason that Jesus gave him well we find that recorded where so that's in Matthew 3 15 mm -hmm so I'm gonna start from 13 then

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Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him John tried prevent him saying

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I need to be baptized by you you're coming to me but Jesus answered answered and said to him permit it to be so now for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness then he allowed him so Jesus was baptized in this case to fulfill all righteousness what have you guys heard or rather are there some biblical arguments as to what this fulfillment of all righteousness was about so with the particular office of the

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Messiah being a prophet priest and King the baptism that we observe happening is one of cleansing it's one of anointing it's one of acknowledging who the

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Sun is you have a moment here where everybody who got anointed in the Old Testament prophets priests and kings it's happening here

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I'm the Messiah that the anointed one so I'm gonna read the portion of what we could call as anointing when he had been baptized

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Jesus came up immediately from the water and behold the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon him and of suddenly a voice came from heaven saying this is my beloved

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Son in whom I am well pleased right so so we see that Jesus is is greater than John okay so John's like I need to be baptized by you you know this is like Elijah coming to Elisha to not to mix the metaphors but I understand but John's saying it look you're the greater one than I am okay and Jesus is is baptized we see this ceremonial cleansing you know that if you're gonna reflect on fulfilling all righteousness you go back and look how the priests were cleansed and there was just water everywhere everything had to be submersed in water water water and then we have the language of Sun which is the language of kingship and but in any case when

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Jesus is coming it says he's fulfilling all righteousness what what was the concern of righteousness any Jew listening to this there at the

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Jordan that day John the Baptist being raised by a priestly family what would they be concerned with when it comes to righteousness it is their covenant obligations

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God defined what righteousness was based upon his own character and he personalized it to Israel here is the covenant

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I make with you here's what's required of you then Jesus comes and says this is to fulfill all righteousness and when you look at that word fulfill and then kind of walk through Matthew especially in these early chapters we read this was to fulfill this was to fulfill this was to fulfill this was to fulfill and so this is the cadence throughout

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Matthew showing the Messiah is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant he's the fulfillment of all righteousness which

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I think is an important point that if Jesus is fulfilling all righteousness in his baptism then our baptism isn't a measure by which we are somehow achieving a righteousness that is lacking yeah yeah we didn't under well

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I don't want to confuse John's baptism with Christian baptism so I'll leave it yeah I'll leave it there so there were contemporaries at one time

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Jesus and John yes so in John the book of John chapter 3 verse 22 and following after these things

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Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea and he remained there with them and baptized now

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John was also baptizing in Anon near Salim because there was much water there and they came in were baptized for John had not yet been thrown into prison now we see in the very next chapter that it wasn't that Jesus was baptizing but as disciples so even then his disciples were baptizing so I want to move on from the baptism in water and into the baptism according to the cross in Mark chapter 10 so Mark chapter 10 38 and 39 is this another chapter in the book that you're moving on to or no this is all this is all according to the baptism in the

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Gospels okay yeah this is a voluminous work as you can tell each of these chapters is as robust and I'm trying to just hit the surface on each of these but as you can tell obviously this topic is very layered so if somebody picks this book up wants to buy it it's worth taking the time to go through maybe each section as its own study portioned out rather than for sure yeah okay yeah the chapter 1 by Andreas Kastenberger is a very workmanlike essay in which he you're gonna be overwhelmed by the amount of scriptural reference it might be kind of dulling to your to your senses as you kind of work through it but it is it's a labor of love to kind of bring to your attention in a very effective way all of the biblical data about baptism in the

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Gospels so you know it's not the most exciting chapter in the book but it is very helpful

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Mark chapter 10 starting verse 35 then James and John the sons of Zebedee came to him saying teacher we want you to do for us whatever we ask and he said them what do you want me to do for you they said to him grant us that we may sit one on your right hand and the other on your left in your glory but Jesus said them you do not know what you ask are you able to drink the cup that I drink and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with and they said to him we're able so Jesus said to them you will indeed drink the cup that I drink and with the baptism

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I am baptized with you will be baptized but to sit on my right hand and my left is not mine to give but is for those for whom it is prepared

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Michael what is this what is this baptism that he's referring to yeah so he also talks about it in Luke chapter 12 verses 49 and 50 he said

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I came to send fire on the earth which is remember that that's in John the Baptist preaching as well about how he will come and baptize with fire the winnowing fan is in his hand and he's going to clean up his threshing floor which is a reference to the temple but he says

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I came to send fire on the earth and how I wish it were already kindled but I have a baptism to be baptized with and how distressed

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I am till it is accomplished at this point in the Gospel of Luke he has set his face toward Jerusalem and he has been instructing his disciples that it is written that he is going to go and he's going to suffer and die and be raised again and when he is talking about his coming death burial and resurrection he uses the metaphor of baptism to describe it and so when we're thinking about the use of the term baptism then in the balance of the

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New Testament very often we're going to encounter passages that talk about baptism with this regard in the same way in Mark chapter 10 about our being baptized with Christ that we are by the grace of God through faith united to his death burial and resurrection the physical sign of it is important the ordinance itself is important but sometimes when we're reading in the text it's talking about this baptism

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Christ's work for our salvation that's interesting that when we talk about our baptism it's in reference to his death burial and resurrection not tied like it is in some conversations to circumcision of the

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Old Covenant that doesn't seem to be in view in this discussion with what Jesus is referring to and what we refer to in our our baptism yeah they are both used to talk as metaphors that are rooted in theological history they are both excellent metaphors to talk about putting away the old man putting away what was that which is old in the sinful flesh like Colossians 2 talks about but in the metaphor of baptism we actually have the new life we have something that is greater than circumcision because it's not just the cutting off of old dead flesh and putting it out of way but there's also life so it's kind of a well you know it's it's based on better promises so that wraps up the first chapter and then we move into baptism according to what is found in Luke and Acts now

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Robert's sign gives an breakdown that I could probably describe as the mode the subjects and the immediacy of baptism now mode the mode mentioned in all these accounts is immersion and it's also likened to or compared to John's baptism in that matter but we also see specific baptism of the

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Ethiopian eunuch by immersion as well there had to be a volume of water yes so we're attacking the word

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I suppose of what it means to baptize or be baptized in or what immersion is all about it's about immersing you know there's the grammar there's the word itself the etymology there's the context where we find it at you know early on in any

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Christian tradition they in the dedicate the the first work of Christian worship and Christian discipleship and so on our very old church fathers kind of laid out what they thought would be appropriate for baptism so they start off you know they think that baptism means immersion and if you could do it in running water that'd be great yeah living water living water and so you know why well the

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Jordan River you know yeah that makes sense but if you couldn't find living water then still water would be would be fine and if you didn't have enough water then okay douse them but do it three times and get them really really wet they were just talking about the need for the metaphor should be one in which you are just totally covered by the water so moving on from mode going to the subjects of baptism now

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Stein makes a claim that in all of the accounts of Lukacs these subjects were the hearers of the gospel those who were repentant and faith -filled the respondent to the gospel can you name a an account in Luke or Acts where you have a mentioning of someone passively receiving without any type of response now there's no there's no account of that I mean every especially in that time frame you got baptized you just put a target on your back and it was in every case and then

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I hope you guys lost I'm sure they've treated the household baptism you know questions immensely I'm sure they

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I'm there they're gonna go in depth on those but in every case as far as the individuals the subjects who are specifically named it says this person believed with their household this person believed what prevents me from being baptized right now you know the

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Ethiopian eunuch it was a person who said I want to be baptized and you know

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I believed with their whole household so it can anybody think of any other example you know there are arguments of silence and hear that often especially from my

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Presbyterian brothers who say well wouldn't there be children in that household well would there be slaves in that household and I think and he makes a good point when he says that the pedro -baptist tends to not make a distinction between children and infants so that when they say wouldn't their children be children in the household and we said well yes of course and children can believe upon the name of the

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Lord Jesus Christ and be saved and be baptized but this is not to say that children are in the same category as infants to make that extrapolation and inference is to go beyond the scripture for reasons that are not in the text

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I think you had talked about household just a second ago I think that the

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Philippians the jailer in Philippi and they're in the jail and they don't run away and he's like what must

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I do to be saved and he says believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you and will be saved you and your household and then they say it's the household but then it says they spoke the word of the

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Lord to him and to all who are in the household so he was preaching to the household it's not like okay the the jailer got saved and then his household got saved it says no he went to their household and preached the word to the jailer and to the household it seems like that's tied to the word of the

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Lord there yeah you could go back to Acts 2 a lot of people talk about this repent and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins you shall will receive the gift of the

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Holy Spirit for the promises to you and to your children and to all who are far off as many of the Lord our

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God will call now in verse 41 it says then those who gladly received his word were baptized mm -hmm he didn't baptizing any households that day with children also those who are far off it's not like they were just like lumped in like well you can just baptize them they had to have the message they had to believe and then be baptized and Peter says the promise is for you and for your children but who were baptized those who gladly received the word exactly so immediacy so in the book of Acts we see an immediacy for baptism now leaving that aside for the context of the book do we see the immediacy of baptism after proclamation of faith today do we do it that way not in Reform Baptist circles why why don't we do it in reference to the immediacy that we see in the

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New Testament well oftentimes the reference that's made is new you bear fruit in keeping with repentance you know

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I want to see that you have you've actually been changed and then not that this is a template necessary to follow but in the early church the catechumens sometimes we go a year or longer without being baptized not saying if that's a template to follow right but there what was the emphasis there though is the question right truly have you been changed is there a difference in your life if so then you are a good candidate for baptism but if you're gonna be like hey we just want to make sure that you've really really changed you've really have been repentant well that's what

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John the Baptist did and that's not Christian baptism so the example that we're seeing in the scripture it's pretty quick yeah so in Acts 240 it says and with many other words he testified

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I'm going back to what happened at Pentecost right and with many other words he testified and exhorted them saying be saved from this perverse generation and I'm gonna read it again then those who gladly received his word were baptized and and that day about 3 ,000 souls were added to them well what's to the them and they continue steadfastly in the apostles doctrines and fellowship in the breaking of bread and in prayers there's a clarity of who are members of the church by the signifying ordinance of baptism those who remain with the church are those who participate in the

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Lord's Supper those who enter the church enter by baptism and we see the immediacy of it in the early church there in the book of Acts and I think one of the reasons why people begin to push back and say well let's not let's not baptize people right away is because we're trying to make a corrective against the sensationalism and revivalism that has long afflicted the church in the

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United States and beyond whereby emotional manipulation you get people to repeat various religious mantras or do these religious acts and then say okay now you're saved because you have had an emotional moment and now we're gonna baptize you only to find out later that this was all manipulation and we've baptized unsaved people in a desire to correct against that will often push baptism out away from those who have professed faith so it was kind of like reactionary pragmatism with what they were facing and trying to trying to correct it but it wasn't like first principles we need to go off how we see it in the

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Bible immediacy is and I would say that there are reasons to sometimes somebody professes faith to say okay we don't have to follow that up you know next week with with baptism necessarily you know the person who has come to faith in Jesus Christ and profess faith in Christ they need to be convinced in their own mind that this is what

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I ought to do and the older the person is the more questions they may have and I'm you know not to push somebody against faith but I mean it's pretty clear in the scriptures but they need to understand what it means right and follow through another reason not to have immediate baptism is our brothers and sisters in Mongolia who wait till the summer because 40 below is 40 below whether it's

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Celsius or Fahrenheit and so our missionary in Mongolia you know he sends his summer newsletters are great because we see all these hundreds of Mongolians now that it's summer we're gonna go down and we're gonna get baptized and the water is still cold but praise the

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Lord right but it's not frozen yeah all right so that was a wrap -up for that chapter and moving on quite naturally into the third chapter baptism in the epistles subtitled an initiation right for believers this is by Thomas Schreiner the way he attacks it or puts it is the centrality of or the necessity of baptism in this initiation right this necessary appeal to God and then he goes into the theology of baptism so in first Peter 3

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I'll go back to it again I said we were going to 18 through 22 this is maybe some type centrality you could talk about so for Christ also suffered once for sins that just for the unjust that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the

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Spirit by whom also he went preached to the spirits in prison who were formerly disobedient when once the divine long suffering waited and the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared in which a few that is eight souls were saved through water there's also an antitype which now saves us baptism not the removal of the flesh or sorry of the filth from the flesh but the answer and I think other versions use appeal to God as one rendering toward a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ who has gone into heaven is that the right hand of God angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to him and in making an appeal to God for a good conscience that's something only a person who has can understand think repent believe

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I would say someone who is not an infant sure and I believe that's what the genesis of this specific reading or this book that was chosen is all about there's nothing in this passage that would give you any type of idea that this is a third party doing this to another third party to have some magical outcome happen but rather this is an operation that is performed by a disciple on or with to a hope spirit filled believer that's what this passage is right here those making an appeal toward God their father there are some who view this as a ex oper a operato a magical formula if you will of how to be saved as in the efficacy of this is in from the work it that has been performed so like a baptismal regeneration like the the baptizing is the act that that saves right right but you know the text itself says it repudiates yeah it repeats it is baptism through the resurrection of Jesus Christ the parenthesis is baptism not the removal of the filth of the flesh which is the whole construct of the

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Old Covenant use of the cleansing water like no no no not like that not like the

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Old Covenant this is something different it is a focus on this appeal the necessity of this appeal toward God in Ephesians 4 verse verse 5

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I'll go back to verse 4 there is one body and one spirit just as you were called and one hope of your calling one

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Lord one faith one baptism one God and father of all who is above all and through on in all and in you all this is this one body this one spirit we talked about entering through baptism into the context of the the community of the believers the local church the one body well who is this one body let's go to 1st

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Corinthians 12 13 for as the one as the body is one and it has many members but all the members of that one body being many are one body so also as Christ for by one spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks slaves are free and have all been made to drink into one spirit for in fact the body is not one member but many so yes we're all being brought in to the church but it is one body which is

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Christ there's also it's important I think to when we read a lot of these passages is to give some consideration to what is being emphasized here is the spiritual ramifications of our union with Christ being emphasized with the term baptism or is it the actual ordinance that's being emphasized and given instruction concerning but the one does not stand without the other so when we think about the they're not entirely separable they're not entirely separable then we have to we have to consider what is being talked about here

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I think where a lot of people go astray is that they read the theological meaning of baptism they see that the metaphor of baptism and they prioritize the the actual ordinance of it and then they begin to get into these situations where they see the act of baptism itself that that is what brings you into the saving graces of Christ if I could put it a certain way a sacramental efficacy yes you had mentioned

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Church of Christ I know some church of Christ that will use acts 238 when Peters preaching he's talking about Jesus you crucified they were cut to their hearts and said what what must we do

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Peter said repent and let everyone if you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissions of sins and they'll use that verse see you need to be baptized so that you can have remissions of sins but I think

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Michael I've heard you use this analogy if someone is wanted for murder you're not trying to sign someone up and say hey we want you to go commit this act it's you're wanted for something that that has already happened ace or ice

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I know yeah so go into the so the Greek word itself is used in a variety of ways not only one way so why would we read it that one way also the

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English word for is used in more than one ways thus it is a happy marriage to the Greek word itself the flexibility works both ways and the question is can we really understand the meaning of these elements of acts 238 in and of itself as that one verse focusing on that one verse we're not going to be able to understand the critical question here's the critical question does acts 238 lay before us a cause and effect chain of events that must occur in order to achieve salvation or does it give us a list of things that are all associated with being saved and being

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Christians so in other words the fact that we read this and this and this and this are these ands bringing us in a causal chain or are they there to connect some things that are related to the subject matter we were reminded in the text that Luke's Luke is writing this book he says and Peter with many other words so he's giving a summary here okay so that keep that in mind also the very next verse for 39 also has a list and it says and this promise is to you and to your children and to all who are far off there's a list of ands but that's not in a chain of causal connection and you can't tell one way or the other there in acts 238 so when you take these very same themes in acts 238 and you see them play out in a larger story space more exegetical room you go to acts chapters 10 and 11 and 15 and you hear the story of Cornelius all of a sudden you see the gospel preached

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Cornelius and his household they believe they're filled with the Holy Spirit they're forgiven of their sins only after that does

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Peter say oh let's baptize them so now we understand the connection between these elements you can't determine that from acts 238 but all those elements come up later again and three different chapters and emphasize the nature of their relationship

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I mean it was it was Peter himself who who said that you know God has granted these Gentiles you know the same repentance so that's why they should be baptized exactly that that's that's the argument he makes yeah so that that's that's important to point out so you know just grabbing on to one verse you may not be able to tell one where the other how these elements are actually supposed to connect so that's why we have the analogy of Scripture moving into the theology so we're gonna go to dead men walking in new life which is

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Romans 6 3 & 4 I'll start in verse 1 what shall we say then shall we continue in sin that grace may bound well certainly not how shall we who died to sin live in it and live any longer in it or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death therefore we were buried with him through baptism into death that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of Father even so we should also walk in newness of life this is about newness of life it's also not about water per se it's about Christ it's about dying to sin and being raised just like we died in him and are raised because of it but how does that happen how does that happen is it because of the waters or is it faith so he builds on now this is through faith

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Colossians 2 11 and 12 now in him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands now

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I don't know about you guys but disciples baptizing disciples is for the operation of their hands right this is not that this is not a circumcision made with hands that's without hands by putting off the body of the sins through the flesh or sins of the flesh my apologies by the circumcision of Christ buried with him in baptism in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God who raised him from the dead and you being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh he has made alive together with him having forgiven you all trespasses having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us which was contrary to us and he he has taken it out of the way and nailed it to the cross having disarmed principalities and powers he made a public spectacle of them triumphing over them in it so we hear that this baptism is the working of God it is it is by faith in this baptism is not something that is unethical it is efficacious it is something that brings about the result so in other words you see this paralleled so that we are buried with him in baptism in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God and verse 13 says and you being dead and your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh which he just talked about in verse 11 he's made alive together with him which he just talked about with baptism having forgiven you all trespasses so this is not a description of water baptism the ordinance although that is not out of the picture because it is that's that ordinance is what declares this reality it is an it is a pronouncement of this reality is declaration of this truth so the emphasis here as baptism is being discussed is being discussed in the same way that circumcision is the spiritual reality that God works well

40:49

I read a quote by as John Meade yes it's one of the books I have on my shelf but when he talks about this phrase by the circumcision of Christ he says it's a genitive phrase which could mean by the circumcision belonging to and performed by Christ it's a circumcision made without hands it is of Christ by Christ into Christ it is a heart circumcision so if you're looking at some kind of parallel between the old circumcision and the new circumcision the parallel is there is one made with hands and then this one made without hands in baptism doesn't relate directly to that that old one it's interesting you bring up the circumcision because often the think a lot of the question it goes back to when the old covenant you're circumcised into Israel and and so if if baptism is circumcision then are we baptized in to the church and the church is

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Israel but what you had read in Romans it says or do you not know that as many of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death so circumcision is the circumcision of the heart and baptism goes back to what

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Jesus was talking about this this whole death burial and resurrection and so when you go back to the story in Acts 10 and 11 about Cornelius they had already been baptized into Christ they already died to trespasses they were already alive with him alive with Christ they were filled with the

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Holy Spirit obviously these were living stone to the new covenant temple God had shown to Peter and to his fellow brethren there that these

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Gentiles were 100 % saved they were all in Christ it is at that point that Peter says how can we stand against God how could we try to put ourselves into God's way he has shown us that these are our brothers in Christ these are our family in Christ it's time for us to now baptize them we need to go ahead and baptize them we're not gonna stand in God's way here this only underscores what

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Jesus had to say in Matthew 18 about the keys of the kingdom and so on the the grammar is very specific that when we what we have to say about church members and so forth is binding and loosing and so forth is that which shall have been loosed in heaven that which shall have been bound in heaven we're just giving the amen of what has already been declared so when we baptize people we are not now saying well before we baptize you you weren't members with Christ you had no part in Christ until we baptized you and now you are in Christ I mean that's not what we're saying we are simply giving the amen of what heaven is already declared that's why we have to be careful with it but we're not the ones who are bringing people into the new covenant

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God does that by the power of Christ which I think would be which makes infant baptism more difficult because there's nothing to ground that on like we talked about the immediacy but it's the immediacy after a profession yeah after some type of faithful response yeah and then glorifying

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God right and then it then we say well who are we to stand in God's way given your profession but with the the infant that that's nonverbal on that categorical misunderstanding and John is clear that it's about being born again and being born not of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God that that's the birth that we need for entry into Christ's kingdom all right subordinate and subsequent and first Corinthians 1 17 well

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I'll start in 14 I'm gonna take some excerpts from here Paul says I thank God that I baptize none of you that's pretty bold 17 for Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel not with the wisdom of words lest the cross of Christ should be have made no effect baptism here is obviously secondary it's obviously subordinate mm -hmm it's obviously obviously subsequent anything other than that is not biblical also the operation of the waters well if Christ didn't send him to baptize people well then they're missing something they're missing out no

45:07

Christ didn't send Paul to baptize people but they're preached the good news this also goes to whether or not only certain high ordained special people should baptize you know if the

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Apostle Paul was not sent to baptize well then then how are these people getting saved gonna get baptized yeah this is obviously in the context of schisms yes parties that are claiming oh

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I'm of Christ I'm of a Paulist I'm a Paul and some people are claiming you know this is who I got baptized by who

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I got baptized by and I know that some Christians have struggled as well about whether or not they were baptized by the right person oh sure but it's it's about being baptized in the name of the

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Father the Son and the Holy Spirit not in the name of some special ordained person the perishing don't need baptism they need the proclamation of the gospel and repentant thing in the last portion of this chapter is about baptism being a sign or a seal a sign or a seal now text of the book calls it a sign of the

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New Covenant not a seal now this is a big distinction here there are a couple well actually

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I have four sections of scripture to talk about but are there any thoughts immediately about sign or seal that that you all have well sign and seal correct me if I'm wrong but these authors are using it as the covenantal formula ie that circumcision was a sign and seal of the old covenant that's right out of Romans chapter 4 in reference to Abraham so I said well obviously there has to be if you're different the

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New Covenant you have you have some kind of covenantal formula you always have a sign and a seal of a covenant so if we can kind of back up a little bit you know what were the signs of the and seals of the previous covenants well you have no edict you have a sign seals not specifically mentioned you have circumcision as a sign and seal the

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Abrahamic you have a sign of the of the Mosaic which maybe we'll say would be the

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Sabbath and you have a sign of the Davidic which would be you know possibly the throne says okay well if you want to make a parallels as many even baptizers do between circumcision and baptism says okay then we need a sign and seal well that would be baptism is the sign and seal when

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I saw the title of this book it irked me just a little bit I was like whoa wait a second no no the

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New Testament doesn't call baptism a sign or a seal but something is called a sign and seal in reference in reference to the

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New Covenant specifically in Acts 2 the Holy Spirit is called a sign of the New Covenant and then are you what are you sealed with are you sealed with baptism no no book of Ephesians says in two places you are sealed with what and sealed with the

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Holy Spirit Holy Spirit so if I was gonna pick a sign and seal of the New Covenant I would say it's the Holy Spirit and then baptism would come after that as a witness to what has already happened in this person's soul as a pastoral intern

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I wandered into the the kitchen of the church building where I was working that summer and there was an older man and one of the younger pastors on staff and they were having a very heated discussion about this very book that we're looking at right now because they had just gotten published

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I was in there because they had there was that's what the coffee was and I had no idea what they are talking about but I remember one excerpt of that conversation and the younger one was trying to explain to the older one the point of the book what they were trying to say and the other one was arguing and it basically came down to this and he's like yeah but the

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Holy Spirit is the sign and and they you know and and then another one says well what's baptism and then he kind of shrugged his shoulders and said it's the sign of the sign so that was my introduction to this

48:49

I've heard it I've heard it often defined as baptism is an outward symbol of an inward reality but even that word symbol is kind of synonymous with sign second

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Corinthians 120 through 22 for all the promises of God in him are yes and in him amen to the glory of God through us now he who establishes us with you and Christ and has anointed us is

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God who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee it's not a what what what hasn't sealed us who yeah there's been a lot of discussion lately and I and I cut a little bit of a podcast an article about the failure of various American church movements who who don't hold to an objective covenant in other words if you don't have an objective sign of the

49:44

New Covenant such as baptizing the infant and baptism being the the parameters of the

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New Covenant the objective parameters of the New Covenant you come in by baptism whether you're regenerate or not because it's a seal of the the promises that you will one day believe and this person was he was saying that the failure of having an objective covenant was the downfall of you know this movement or that movement and so on but I think that is somewhat

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Old Covenant thinking I think that the the Spirit is powerful

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I think the Spirit at work in the lives of believers turns out to be pretty visible pretty obvious and massive changes happen as the

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Spirit works through the life of his people and I think that the sealing of the of the

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Spirit is is what the you're saying that the New Testament talks about not not a physical act

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Ephesians 1 13 and 14 and him you also trusted after after you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation in whom also having believed you were sealed with the

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Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of his glory what were you gonna say well you had mentioned

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Sunday talking about kind of our Jewishness finding that in Christ and talking about the old the

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Old Covenant if you are not circumcised then you are cast out of the Old Covenant you're cast out if you try to make that parallel to baptism in the

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New Covenant well in the New Covenant those that are in the New Covenant do not fall away his laws are in your heart

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God holds us in his hands in the Old Covenant there is covenant breaking in the New Covenant we are sealed and we are kept so rather than baptism being the sign if the

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Spirit is the sign of the New Covenant there is no falling away like there would be in the

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Old Covenant and I there's some distinctions that I think Presbyterians make between like there's the

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Saints and or visible church and invisible church but I don't see that in the discussion between what

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Jesus says the New Covenant is in its nature is vastly different than in the Old Covenant I mean you can see that right in in Jeremiah 31 where you have is what are the differences between the old and the new well in the old there were people who were they were all all part of the

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Covenant but there were only a few who knew the Lord and they were telling other people you should need need to know the

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Lord in the New Covenant everyone's going to know the Lord ever whoever is in the new cannot gonna say to their neighbors know the

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Lord because they will all know them so that's the distinction so in the New Covenant even in the Jeremiah passage quoted in Hebrews it says all of those in the

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New Covenant know the Lord it's not like it was in old Israel where you had you know

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Israel and then you had Israel you're not all of Israel was of Israel you know there was a faithful remnant in the

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New Covenant everybody knows the Lord so they're not gonna say to their neighbor so if we leave baptism as the

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New Covenant sign then you'd have a category then of covenant breaking right wherein you have people who have taken the sign of the

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New Covenant and yet then they fall away now of course we have various passages to describe that you know

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Jesus tells a parable about seed sown into shallow soil or thorny soil we have the description in 1st

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John chapter 2 they went out from us but they were not really of us they went out so that would be demonstrated that they all were not of us and so forth and descriptions in Hebrews and so forth but if if we say that the

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New Covenant sign is baptism then we have the category of covenant breaking because you have gone against the sign that you took but there is no category in the

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New Testament or in the Old Testament prophecies in which one who has been sealed by the Holy Spirit falls away right that's impossible well and that's interesting because in one of the first debates

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I heard between James White and Doug Wilson our Roman Catholics our brothers Doug Wilson says well you got to grab them by their baptism because that's their profession that's their sign that there and if they don't you know live according to their baptism then they're breaking covenant it's like well what is that I think it's an interesting evangelistic opportunity to talk to a

54:00

Roman Catholic about their baptism and joke around with them maybe do you remember your baptism well no you know it's like you know what they said about you back then you know and begin to talk to them about that that's an interesting entry into evangelism but that's that's not a covenant reality all right so that was the end of chapter three but I think we're gonna leave it there for now there's there's there's ten chapters in this book of content so I don't know if we're gonna continue further in this at another time but I would say if you're interested in in this book and what it's bringing forth study for yourself but obviously

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I hope you saw that we were going to the scriptures to see if these things were so and any work other than the inspired

54:41

Word of God has to submit to the scriptures before we do move on I want to ask a question through chapters 1 through 3 what has given you in those chapters a more filled -out view of baptism how's this shaped your mindset on baptism in these first three chapters

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I think there was probably some remnant of confusion between John's baptism and Christian baptism

55:05

I think there was a remnant of what is the ceremony what is the operation of baptizing someone actually doing but then you're you're left with this it's what he has done for us our recognition as disciples in someone that we have preached the gospel to that they believe and that they've been born again and now it's time to bring them into the church so that that's where I've been left with the primacy in Christ of all this is just the work of the

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Spirit the Father in his giving it's it's very Trinitarian as you can tell but it's been a joy also it's it's really fun to find scriptures to be able to talk with other brothers and sisters in Christ that you differ with and to have that discussion with them

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I feel more prepared now to speak to any other believer about baptism than previously and praise the

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Lord for that also housekeeping question for the rest of you before we go into what are we thankful for do we actually are we ready to recommend our own books for this segment as well my recommendation is homeward bound

56:16

Sabbath rest for the people of God by Graham Goldsworthy who is not a Baptist he's Anglican but he is a smaller book but it's a great biblical theology on Sabbath and the way in which the scriptures talk about Sabbath and rest and home it was very helpful to me in my study on the fourth commandment

56:37

Chris I don't really have anything right now I'm kind of in the middle of studying for a lesson on Philippians both of those commentaries

56:47

I'm really enjoying I can't remember the name off the top of my head ones by Moises Silva and the other one is by FF Bruce yeah and both of those have their strengths they're different in how they're written but both of those are vastly different how they're

57:01

Andrew would you recommend something else other than this book on this episode sure read the book of Acts there's a lot there

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I remember the very first time that I read the book of Acts in a manner that was studying it for what it was and it was

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I don't know it my heart was on fire reading it and it was it was a beautiful thing and don't discard the scriptures for just statements about facts their accounts this is this is what happened you know and I think that's what really got to me that that time the book of Acts is compelling about what our

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Lord was doing during that time frame and it's a beautiful reminder of the going forth of the gospel from Jerusalem out to the uttermost parts of the earth

57:54

I'm trying to remember if I recommended this last time or not but this is a book that I am actually going over with my with my teenager it's called the richest man in Babylon by George Classen I've talked about that a little bit with with you guys before but it's a collection of little booklets little pamphlets that this guy did in the 1920s and 30s and sent those out

58:23

I believe and the principles that he brings are they're pretty biblically based you can actually kind of see some of that but he uses the the foil of Babylon to do that and talks about the riches in Babylon and then and the man this arcade who is the richest man in Babylon how did he get wealthy and the principles that it teaches number one what are your seven cures you know for a lean purse you people who have lean purses you know raise them up and he's speaking to these people because the king has asked him to come says how did you get so rich I'd like all these people to be you know to be rich because only a few people in this city are wealthy and this guy

59:03

Arcad says no there's there's wealth enough in Babylon for everybody to be wealthy and you just follow these principles and this is how this works who has a lean purse they'll hold up their purses you know and there they're either completely empty and they're kind of you know joking around with them but he says well here's here's your first one live on less than you make for every ten coins you make save one and keep it in your purse and you just keep doing that and then that grows this oh now

59:29

I have money that says no you have money to invest or lend for every coin you make that's in your purse it should have it should make it work for you make it your servant make it your slave and not just it but it's children and it's children's children he's talking about compound interest so these basic principles

59:48

I know they talk about budgeting and these other things but he's using it in the context of these old stories within Babylon that apparently this guy found on these old clay tablets you know stuff like that but it's great it's kind of fun to read but each of our very short chapters the principles are

01:00:04

I believe very biblical you can tell they has that Christian worldview but he uses Babylon's like isn't Babylon the bad guy in the

01:00:11

Bible so there's a couple of things in there where it says that it was you know great and rich and has all these wonderful things about it but remember

01:00:18

Babylon's the bad guy in the Bible but that's not what this book is about just basic principles of budgeting and finance so it's been fun to read do not confuse the typology then right well it's kind of a providential that I brought this one in then because it does talk about coinage of a different kind more digital than anything else this is a book by Alan Armstrong Alan spelt

01:00:42

A -L -I -N he's a Canadian church planter and he wanted to write kind of a little study for the church layman to understand the

01:00:50

Bible and Bitcoin how this new currency is a technology just like gold or just like fiat currency the properties that it holds and why those properties are biblical or unbiblical or it should we be using

01:01:04

Bitcoin should we be allowed to use Bitcoin as Christians he answers those questions and kind of a bold and opposing view to I would say prevalent thought and ask the question should we be using fiat currencies as Christians and that isn't does an interesting take to have but he he self -published this it's very short it's structured very loosely so you can explore scriptural references that he makes throughout the text and he's got notes and prayer in the back so if you want to take a group of young men or women and go through it you may and he also has at the very end a lot of QR codes and references to places where you can either buy hardware or buy

01:01:46

Bitcoin and it's it's really useful for somebody who's being entered into the conversation because anybody who has studied it at any length knows it can become highly technical can become a morass of arguments between different theological schools or thoughts on monetary policy but he hands it to us very clearly which text we should be referencing when we think about monetary technology or monetary policy because the

01:02:11

Bible does have those but it's a it's a nice little short work and I do recommend it to anybody out there who wants to be introduced to the subject so we'll move on to what are we thankful for Michael well

01:02:21

I am very thankful for my wife thankful for all of her labors with our children teaching them to read teaching them about God teaching them to be thankful teaching them how to love one another and injecting a lot of joy and beauty into our lives and just very thankful for my wife

01:02:43

I'm thankful for just the vast amount of resources available to us the age that we live we have the internet there's books and just things that we can learn from we can talk about we can compare to scripture to see how things fit

01:03:01

I'm grateful for that because on my own you know I'm lacking but just to have other believers that I can talk to materials about and you mentioned the

01:03:11

Bible in Bitcoin and does it would I be able to use those principles with like the Bible and dogecoin or is

01:03:17

Bitcoin the only cryptocurrency he takes the hardliner position as I do that Bitcoin is the only the only thing outside of gold that isn't likened to fiat currencies amen all all other altcoins are considered fiat in my mind as it is in Allen's I'm thankful to God for his word going through books whether they're true or so analyzing someone else's theological position or philosophical position

01:03:46

I don't I don't have the authority to be able to weigh these matters by myself if it wasn't for the

01:03:52

Word of God I I wouldn't know which way was up so I I'm thankful for his word

01:03:58

I'm thankful for my home my wife returned from a big shopping trip

01:04:05

I went out and also did some I was picking up some extra supplies at Sam's and Costco and then she had gone to another store and between the two of us we just had a lot of stuff in our in our cars that's just being you know put into into storage and we just have a very safe secure and well stocked place that we can you know not just provide for ourselves but for others as well and that's something that Amy is just kind of created and we're just very thankful for that I'm quite thankful for the

01:04:41

Lord's help in raising sons if I had to rely upon myself for all that I need in order to give them exactly what they need

01:04:52

Heather and I would struggle mightily and we do struggle mightily still with the raising of our children but the

01:04:57

Lord helping us as parents showing us what kind fatherhood is showing us what loving nurture is for our sons is something that we cannot get enough of and he supplies that for us and he does so very graciously so that's what