Dr. J. Ligon Duncan

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed to Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line Thursday afternoon,

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December 17th 2009 I Was directed to or ran across my

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RSS feeds. I'm not sure which one it was, but I was directed to an Interview that took place recently

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With dr. J. Ligon Duncan and it's on the subject of the Manhattan Declaration That's why we're getting a half hour ahead start today

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Because I do not want to be rushed and I do want to be able to open the phone lines

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For discussion for those of you who would like to agree or those of you who would like to disagree

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I know that I was going to look I didn't look maybe somebody in the channel can look this up for me

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How many people have currently signed the Manhattan Declaration I would be interested maybe

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I'd algo it but my interface to the algo search engine is not really working right now so since he's in channel, maybe we can we can find that but As soon as I listened to the discussion

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I Wanted to in fact, I think it was Dan Phillips that made that made reference to it and I Want to talk about we hadn't talked about I've written about it

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I have Preached about it. I've put videos up on the subject but amazingly enough

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I have not discussed it on The dividing line turrets and fans says two hundred nine nine thousand five hundred fifty seven.

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So that's about three hundred thousand people and certainly, there is a push -on to to sign up and to Let your voice be heard and so on and so forth

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And I understand that that people who are very strongly in support of the

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Manhattan Declaration must really think that I'm a complete jerk along with of course Alistair Begg and John MacArthur and and R .C.

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Sproul and Mike Horton and people like that But the

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Reality is that we have some very serious concerns at the same time

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I'm doing this program because I'm a little bit concerned about how Some people that would be concerned on my side have been addressing this issue.

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There have been charges of compromising the gospel and being ashamed of the gospel and various sundry things like that that have been

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Fired off toward dr. Al Mohler and dr. J. Ligon Duncan and people like that that I don't think are helpful at all

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Because they are convinced and they have repeatedly said That they do not view the document as being relevant to the nature of the gospel that's where the that's where the dispute is is it or is it not and Dr.

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Duncan's interview that he has here That that took place fairly fairly recently

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I put the information on the blog I Apologize for not having all this in front of me But I put on the on the blog.

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This was done with Pastor Kevin Bowling On his radio program.

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I hope he doesn't mind my shamelessly ripping that off and discussing it and interacting with it No, I haven't actually asked any of these individuals to be on the program or like that I I generally don't do that sometimes

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You know, I want to you know, if I'm thinking about doing a program way down a line or something I'll contact somebody but we're not real big on guests.

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I'm not a big Networker type guy. I don't have a bunch of phone numbers in a Rolodex Well, you know,

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I just dated myself big -time there tonight a bunch of phone numbers in my BlackBerry Isn't an amazing how it's changed and so very quickly

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To be able to just you know, get hold of folks and I probably could have I would like to think that dr

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Duncan would be kind enough to to be on the program if I asked him to but I'm going to be very fair with the material and interact with it and I'm really glad I did get the listen because I was directed to some other material specifically, dr.

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Neil Nielsen's blog he's the president of Covenant College who also signed it which gave me some really good insights into this

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This particular subject that I did not have before and so That's why I wanted to take the extra time today

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So we would not have to rush and would have time if you would like to comment on the program

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Toward the end of the program. I wouldn't be calling in right now to be honest with you but Eventually, we will be open up the phone lines and I would like to hear from you as well

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And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to play portions of major portions of the interview

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That pastor Bowling did with J. Ligon Duncan and Then interact with what what dr.

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Duncan says hopefully to bring light to this issue So people on both sides will understand the real motivations.

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I don't believe that we need to be Throwing dr. Duncan and dr. Mohler under the bus

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At the same time. I think that having heard dr

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Duncan's defense of his signing. I am even more concerned because I think there's a there's a real basic question that that's out there and that is who gets to define and Determine what this document actually means.

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It's already gotten down to a point of exegesis and It seems to me that most of us would have to agree

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That you exegete a document based upon authorial intent and who are the authors this document well, two of the three were

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Timothy George and Charles Coulson and While a number of the signers are distancing themselves from Coulson's own comments

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Who gets to define? What the document meant? I think it's important that dr.

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Duncan and dr. Mohler get to define How they understand the document as to what their signature means

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At the same time if Their understanding what the document means and Charles Coulson's understanding the document are two completely different things.

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That's very troubling That's very troubling indeed But it needs to be it needs to be recognized

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Because the people who won't allow them to define their own own purposes for having signed it

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Are are going after them. I think on the wrong basis. And so there needs to be fairness And and one of the things that concerns me is all this is starting to focus more upon who did the signing and who didn't then what the real issues are and the real issue is the nature of the gospel and the fact that there are for many many people for Charles Coulson and Timothy George and Especially and those of you who may be just listening to this for the first time

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Go back in our archives. We spent weeks going through Painstakingly the dialogue between Timothy George and Frank Beckwith on the subject

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Roman Catholicism and Beckwith's conversion reconversion reversion to Roman Catholicism We let these people speak in a great way along those lines

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And listen to what they have to say and then respond to it. So we're not just this isn't just a knee -jerk reaction

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I've been Involved in this field since he's since before ECT came out he came out in 94

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I had been debating Roman Catholics since August of 1990 and I don't mean debating Roman Catholics, you know

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Like on a web board someplace. I mean in Catholic churches the leading Catholic apologists and so I think

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I've been talking about this stuff for just a little while now and So hopefully can bring some some light to us.

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Let's listen to What I'm gonna do is I can listen to the interview up to the point where he makes reference to Neil Nielsen's blog

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Then I want to read from Neil Nielsen's blog Because it is very interesting the things he says and then go back to that and then we'll take your phone calls

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Here on the dividing lines. That's where I get an early start today. Hopefully the voice will last for the 90 minute edition and Hopefully folks will be helped out by thinking through these issues

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Let's uh, let's jump into the fact that the pastor bowling began by giving Well, I thought was pretty good background summary since we can't assume that everyone listening has all this information

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I'm gonna let him sort of provide you with the background. Let me give you a little bit of background about our discussion today on November 20th 2009 the

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National Press Club in Washington DC hosted an event sponsored by Chuck Coulson who was surrounded by a number of Catholic Orthodox and Evangelical leaders and they unveiled a nine page 4732 word document entitled the

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Manhattan Declaration The subtitle of it is a call of Christian conscience

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Unquote, of course Chuck Folt Coulson is the founder of prison fellowship

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He described the document as quote a clear message to civil authorities unquote on issues pertaining to life marriage and religious liberty the names of Many well -known

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Evangelical leaders such as dr. Ji Packer and Tim Keller Wayne Grudem Albert Moeller and our special guest today

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Ligon Duncan appeared among many other names among those 148 original signatories of that document

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Additionally popular evangelical blogs like Justin Taylor's which I read quite often. He does an excellent job

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His particular blog between two worlds now hosted out there at the gospel coalition

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He strongly promoted this document and encouraged evangelicals to add their signature to this particular declaration a

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Few evangelical leaders such as dr. Albert Moeller have publicly expressed their reasons for signing

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I saw in fact today out on the Manhattan Declaration Website that there are many others to that have expressed why they have decided to sign this

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Declaration and so you can go out there and read those I put all the links on the blog here today however other evangelical leaders

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So well -known ones such as Alistair Begg Michael Horton John MacArthur and R .C.

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Sproul have found it necessary To address this issue and post via the web reasons why they have not signed the document

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Additionally James White who is of course the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, you know, very popular evangelical

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Apologist has now calling for on his Particular website he's calling for those that have signed the document to remove their names from it and to clearly articulate what they

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Why they've removed their names basically if I could put it that way just summarizing Others have began to wonder

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Especially out at voice of the sheep Brian Thornton out There is beginning to wonder out loud just what type of impact you know

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This growing tension over this declaration will have specifically on movements like the together for the gospel organization, which is something that evangelicals are tremendously interested in and very much for but now they see that that particular organization is made up now of signers and non signers alike to the

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MD or the Manhattan Declaration? Well just a few days ago Together for the gospel original member

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Lagan Duncan in his role as the president of the Alliance of confessing evangelicals great

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Organization. In fact, they hold one of their PCR T meetings right here in Greenville.

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I attended last year was excellent. He has Put out a statement on reformation 21 website talking about the issues here related to the

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Manhattan Declaration Primarily because there are folks that are associated with the

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Alliance Alliance members who have signed the document and there are Alliance members who have not signed the document and Many of those names you would be familiar with if we went through the list and so today

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I have asked dr Lagan Duncan to come on the program today and to talk about these issues.

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This is certainly, you know Been raised as an issue within the evangelical community and dr

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Duncan has graciously agreed to do so and to come on here and further Articulate maybe why he signed and to answer some of those questions that have been raised by those who disagree with Evangelical participation in this particular declaration and so that's what we're looking to do here on the program so there you have the

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Introduction given by pastor, but I thought it was very good gave a lot of good information Dr.

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Duncan came on and then after some introductory remarks There have been a number of people who have paralleled this particular

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Declaration with the Barman Declaration that came up in some of dr. Duncan's initial comments

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I'm not even sure whether the way you Evaluate the effectiveness or the usefulness of a document like this is in how many votes you sway in Congress You know

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If you had if you evaluated for instance the Barman Declaration of the German Evangelical Church in the late 1930s in the wake of Nazism If you evaluated that based on how many votes they changed at the

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Reichstag You'd have to you'd have to declare the Barman Declaration a failure But I think history has shown that the

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Barman Declaration was actually an important declaration of Christians saying that we are not going to allow the

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Lordship of Jesus Christ in the church to be trampled by the state and In it was a rallying point of sorts and a sadly tragic rallying point and frankly

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It was the Barman Declaration that was in the minds of the folks who were in the room in Manhattan in late

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September when we were talking about this document because less than Being or more than being a document about cobelligerency

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It actually is a document that speaks of a shared fate and doom that all of us face

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No matter what our particular ecclesiastical tradition is that there are there are consequences in our current state of play

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In the United States in particular and in the Western world at large that whether you are Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or biblical

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Baptist Church or a conservative Presbyterian Church There are certain liabilities

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For all of us so that what is done to one of us has a consequence for the rest of us

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No matter how significant our differences are And I think that was what was on the minds of people in the room that it was important for us to basically stand up And say if you come after one of us

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You're actually coming after all of us And I do believe that there are a lot of people in the political arena that do not have a clue about that For instance, they think they can go after the

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Catholic adoptive services in Massachusetts and it really won't have any impact on say

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Bethany Christian Services But that is not true because what they do to the Catholic adoptive services has immediate and direct ramifications for Bethany Christian Services or any other evangelical

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Foster or adoptive care providing service. And so it was that sense of we are in a shared dilemma

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Even as high as the walls of theological difference as exists between us We are in a shared dilemma in this in this current moment and it's going to impact

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For us as evangelicals our ability to Proclaim the gospel and live together and minister get together in our local churches the way we think the

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Bible tells us to do it and if if we sort of turn a blind eye to what is happening to Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic institutions and churches then

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Actually, we're we are turning a blind eye to what's coming for us That was you know, if I could explain the dynamic of what was going on in the room that day that was what was on Our mind.

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Mm -hmm well, and I again from the beginning have understood the importance of addressing these issues and when

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I see governmental action that is Impacting the freedom of speech of Roman Catholics.

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I am concerned about that If for no other reason then I mean obviously the logical reason

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I recognize that if the government is willing to limit the free speech of Roman Catholic they're gonna be willing to limit my own free speech

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But I don't want a Roman Catholics rights to speech limited because I want to be able to argue with them

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I want to be able to debate with them. I want to be able to have open dialogue discussion

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Disputation disagreement exchange of ideas That's what Liberty is all about and we pray that we continue to have that Liberty So the issue is is not it's not a matter of turning a blind eye to the fact that That that there are many people on the left that detest

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Roman Catholicism ironically many of them tend to be Roman Catholics for some weird reason

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I mean look at some of the leading left leading leftists in our country. They're Roman Catholics You know, but that's another issue.

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We've addressed that before That's that's not that's not not the point. We we recognize that when they go after the

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Roman Catholics They're going after everyone who would speak a word to a secular a more and more secular society

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About what God would want them to do So that really isn't the issue and and if that's again the important thing.

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We're here today is Dr. Duncan keeps saying this is what we were thinking and The big question is going to be well, how could what?

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Dr. Duncan and dr. Mullen Muller are thinking and the others who signed it How could I end up being so very different than what

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Chuck Colson thought it said? Because Chuck Colson has made very strong statements as to the nature of this document and it's very different There seems to have been some major miscommunication

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In involved in the production of the declaration which has led to all of this Problem that has come since since that particular point in time

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I mean, maybe I could pose the question this way to you explain what I think you mentioned this in your in your writing your

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Statement the idea that there is a right way to do co -belligerency and there's a wrong way to do co -belligerency

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See, maybe you could explain that for us That's good, you know part of the problem of this isn't it

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Kevin is it raises a whole host of issues you have to try and answer all at Once and even in the way you posed the question you indicated about five of those issues

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That they come up and they're all legitimate issues Let me let me just say really quickly and emphatically before we even get to those things

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What John MacArthur has said and what? Alistair Begg has said and what

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James White has said and what Phil Johnson has said and what Dan Phillips has said and what Frank Turk has said and what

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R .C. Sproul has said and these dear dear friends and brothers of mine I care about what they've said

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And I respect what they've said and I think they've actually said something very important and let me just go a step further if you think this document is

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Fundamentally about the gospel about who is a Christian and about what is a true church, please?

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Agree with dr. MacArthur and dr. Sproul and not with me You know if I thought this document was fundamentally about what is the gospel who is a true

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Christian? And what is the true church? I would say please don't sign it Please don't read it and agree with John MacArthur and R .C.

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Sproul and Alistair Begg not with not with me Obviously last word was me

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And I appreciate that again what this emphasizes is that from dr.

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Duncan's perspective The gospel is not up for redefinition on the basis of this this document declaration that should have been obvious We know that that they're not going to sign somewhere.

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They think that that's the case The question is however, can we make heads or tails out of the language of?

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the document Without coming to that conclusion. That's where the problem really lies.

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There seems to be a little bit of a communication problem here when the document Uses the term

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Christian. What is that about? Well, we're gonna hear how he understands that when it talks about the gospel However, it makes no distinctions and that's the problem that most of us on this side of the aisle of this particular issue have

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Is that the document is speaking in such a way as to have those ramifications?

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And so dr. Duncan is saying Hey, if you think that this has ramifications on the gospel, then don't sign it

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I don't see how you can avoid that As we as we look carefully at the language and as it's going to come up as we especially read

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Neil Nielsen's blog The language is there and And I'm gonna read this again later but let me just let me just just give you just one little quote from Neil Nielsen that gives you a really good ideas toward the end of his blog and He makes he makes this listen to this

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I Must add even given what I have just said that I dearly wish the gospel references had not been included in the declaration

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They introduce unnecessary ambiguity and provide unnecessary ground for the refusal of many Evangelicals to sign with a more precisely disciplined focus on the main issues that addresses the declaration would have

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I believe Garnered far wider support among evangelicals and enabled this enterprise to have a vastly more far -reaching impact

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But would it have been the Manhattan Declaration? Would it have represented what Colson and Timothy George?

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believe very clearly believe that the gospel of Rome does save and That the only differences we have are differences of opinion on side issues, but not the very essence of the gospel itself

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Would it have been the Manhattan Declaration? I agree with dr. Nielsen if if that those things had been avoided it wouldn't have been difficult to agree with what was being said

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But they're there and they they have to be dealt with because they are there

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So I continue with with dr. Duncan. That's not how I view the documents yeah, I view it as a declaration about the sanctity of human life the dignity of marriage and and and and biblical sexuality and and the rights of freedom of conscience and Christian religious liberty and and in each of those three areas those are areas where conservative

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Bible -believing Protestants Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do in fact agree and we've always agreed in two of the three areas

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We've never ever had a disagreement with one another on the issues of the sanctity of human life or the definition of marriage and human

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Sexuality and we've never disagreed on those things even during the Reformation We didn't disagree on those things and the third issue the issue of religious liberty

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They've actually flipped over to agree with us at the time of the Reformation. They didn't believe in religious liberty We convinced them that Biblically, they were wrong and they changed their views

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So on none of those three issues does any Protestant have to compromise in my view that one iota of our theological conviction?

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Well, I have I have one there's one historical problem there And and that is

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Well, well twofold. I don't know that we convinced Roman Catholicism of Religious liberty

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All you have to do is go hundreds of years later to the papal syllabus of errors And and I think that's listed as one of the errors

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Actually is to allow that kind of liberty. But what's more is I'm gonna have to be historically accurate here.

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I wouldn't have been allowed to preach in Geneva Okay as a Baptist so I You know,

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I understand what's being said in general, but I I want to be a little bit more careful historically at that point

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That religious liberty did eventually grow out of the Reformation movement

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But it wasn't really initially a part of it. I mean by 1525 Martin Luther was killing Anabaptists 1527 over its wing

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Lee and the Anabaptists and So the Magisterial Reformation remained the

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Magisterial Reformation and there is a Baptist drowned in London in 1611 when the

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King James Version was was brought out, so it took a while for that concept of religious liberty to actually catch on and so That's I think something that needs to be

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Addressed there as well. Now that having been said a lot of people have said well Why wouldn't you just widen this thing up include

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Mormons include Muslims? Include secular atheists who believe in absolute morality.

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Why would you want to? Confuse this, you know as being sort of a Christian thing by just having

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Bible -believing evangelical Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox and the quick answer to that is we actually don't agree with Muslims and Mormons in these areas

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Historically the the Muslims are not with us on the point of rights of conscience and religious liberty

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They don't they don't believe in separation to church and state. They believe that the that the state ought to be the church And you know, they don't they don't even that recognize the categories that we operate in in that area.

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So There are there are specific reasons why? Christians that are out of the mainstream

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Trinitarian historic Christian tradition have The identical theological beliefs in these particular areas it flows out of certain shared common theological convictions that we alone have

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Okay Here's some my problems there that's not what Chuck Colson says and we keep running it up against this over and over over again

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Chuck Colson said that we did not invite the Mormons even though he did such a wonderful job in Proposition 8 in California We didn't invite the

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Muslims, etc. Etc Because we wanted this to be a statement of the three great traditions of Christianity It's very clear to me that the intention of the

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George Colson and remember These are the drafters. This is where again authorial intent comes in.

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What did the writers? Intend by their language and it seems rather inarguable that the writers themselves

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Intended to communicate the idea that this is one big Christianity Sharing one big gospel, but it's gospel light.

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It's the mere Christianity form of gospel you don't have to worry about things like Sola Fide and the nature of justification and where the

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Atonement is a once -for -all thing or is sort of parceled out through a sacramental system or Those are just side issues

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We're all just in in one big happy family. See and that seems to be the authorial intent

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At that point in in regards to this subject. And so the Mormons were left out because they're not

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Trinitarians the Muslims left out because they're not Trinitarians not because There is some fundamental disagreement in regards to freedom of religion

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Which as was just pointed out by someone in channel Roman Catholicism Historically has not believed in that kind of religious freedom either there was a state church and you violated the state church and Well, you see what happens.

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So, you know Inquisition things like that. So It I'm it's concerns me that you have individuals who were not only

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The drafters but who were quote -unquote in the room That's the terminology being in the room in the discussions that brought this document about And they're giving us very very different perspectives in regards to what

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The documents really meant to say and That's not the kind of thing that brings clarity.

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Now. Is it if that's what was desired? Given the ecumenical aspect of this that opportunity for clarity,

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I think has been sacrificed unfortunately So that's that's that's that's quite troubling.

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Here's the rebuttal that people give to that They say but the language certainly seems to say that for instance

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The language says we are Christians who have joined together and it is our duty to proclaim

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The gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in its fullness. Here's the statement by RC says the drafters of the document

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Charles Coulson Robert George Timothy George used deliberate language that is on par with the ecumenical language of the evangelicals and Catholics together that the well -known

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ECT movement that began in the 1990s and he says this idea that Christians are errors errors of a 2 ,000 year tradition of proclaiming

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God's Word it identifies Orthodox Catholics and evangelicals as Christians the documents calls for Christians to unite in the gospel

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The gospel of costly grace is actually a phrase that's used in there the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in its fullness

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I guess can't you could see how people would say are confused by whether or not we are calling these other two groups

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The same as we are that we're calling them legitimate Chris Christians in the full sense of the word

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Would you agree I do entirely and I that is one reason why I so appreciate the concerns that have been raised by my brothers

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Having not been at that meeting and having picked up that document cold. It does not

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Surprise me at all that that would be the reaction of a number of very intelligent

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Very Orthodox very biblical brothers and sisters, okay but what

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I can say is at that meeting when we discuss these things and then after that meeting because there was it when we first met there was a lot of work still left to be done in drafting the document and it went through a

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Series of revisions hundreds and hundreds of revisions to it. We talked about who is the audience for this document?

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What is what is the tone that we want to be set in this document? there were a whole variety of issues that were raised by the folks that were there at the

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Meeting and as as the revision went on the very discussion that you and I are having right now and that and the very issues

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That dr. MacArthur and dr. Sproul raised were raised Especially amongst those of us who were evangelical and reformed and present at the meeting

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Or asked to be original signers and you know, we were shooting emails back and forth And by the way, there's a wonderful source to get an inside glimpse of this

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If you get go to Neil Nielsen's blog Neil is the president of Covenant College, right?

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And if you go to Neil Nielsen's president's blog at covenant dot edu

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He wrote an article just a few days ago called why I almost didn't sign the

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Manhattan Declaration I linked to that on the blog just so Actually tell you he'll share with you some of the inner sort of the in -house arguments that we were having amongst ourselves

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All right, and here from that blog I signed the declaration for four principal reasons one the convictions and commitments articulate in the declaration regarding the sanctity of human life the dignity of marriage conjugal union of husband and wife and the rights of conscience and religious liberty are

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Clearly grounded in the scriptures fully consistent with Westminster standards and increasingly necessary for God's people live out no matter what the cost

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Okay number two our witness to the gospel of Jesus Christ is strengthened not weakened when Christians accurately and graciously lay out the implications of Our biblical faith.

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Well, that's a truism The question would be could the group that signed the initial the initial group of signers

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Which includes father Peter Stravinsky's who I debated in purgatory back in 2001 Could we accurately and graciously lay out the implications of our biblical faith?

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Does he have a biblical faith? The answer has to be no at that point number three

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I carry a joyful burden to witness to and be a faithful steward of these truths for the sake of the rising Generations whom we serve at Covenant College so they might be equipped with the challenges

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They will face in decades ahead again a truism, but is the rising generation assisted and aided and witnessed to When the gospel itself is confused

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By such an action would be the question that I would ask Number four I am willing to make common cause in these matters with others with whom

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I continue to have deep theological Differences for the sake of the well -being of God's Church and the continuing work and ministry of Covenant College He says it is the last point which gives gets the subject of this posting in its opening section

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The declaration identifies the Orthodox Catholic and evangelical signers as quote Christians who have joined together across historic lines of ecclesial differences end quote

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But it also includes statements and phrases which imply or may imply That these signers share a common faith and a common understanding the gospel for example

34:48

Quote Christians are heirs of a 2 ,000 year tradition of proclaiming God's Word the gospel of costly grace

34:54

It is our duty to proclaim the gospel of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in its fullness both in season and out of season

35:00

While I could unreservedly commit my name to the main body of the declaration regarding sanctity of life marriage and religious liberty

35:06

I hesitated to sign Because of these references to the gospel recognizing as I must that there is not a common understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ among the signers in Early November a string of email messages to a dear and trusted friend who is a co -signer and in fact encouraged me to sign

35:22

I wrote this is not a definitive response to requests I signed but it's a continuation of the discussion the key question for me is am

35:29

I willing to sign a statement like this along with Christian leaders who define what is stated as The basis for the statement in very different ways for example

35:36

What the Catholic leaders sign the statement mean by it is our duty to proclaim the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in Its fullness both in season and out of season bottom of page two.

35:44

What is the gospel to them? Am I comfortable sign the statement on the basis of my understanding of the terms used ie knowing full

35:50

Well that other signing it are using those same terms to refer to very different things And notice this is someone who signed it

35:59

Enunciating the very same issues that we who have rejected it from the moment it came out I think

36:04

I was one of the first people to do so Though I was of course not asked Which does not surprise me in the slightest

36:14

Same issues same issues are coming up here I wish in such a theological language had been left out entirely and that the statement referred more directly and exclusively to the issues themselves

36:24

But when such a statement is that the bottom of page 2 is included the document implies a Theological agreement on the content of the gospel and thereby goes beyond cobelligerence in a similar way as the

36:34

ECT documents Well, I agree. Dr. Nielsen's perfectly right here in A later message.

36:42

He wrote could it be that by avoiding clarifications biblical gospel and giving or allowing the impression of agreement on such?

36:48

A basic matter as the content of the gospel we are in fact with every good intention weakening our distinctive gospel witness

36:55

Answer yes It's hard for me to imagine that Colson and George both ardent supporters of ECT are not on some level

37:03

Still just as ardent about the theological reunifying of Protestant Catholic communities The theological language of the document extraneous if the purpose is cobelligerence pure and simple

37:13

Carries implications and connotations for theological agreement that I don't think I can countenance Don't get me wrong

37:20

We must work with all our energy alongside all like convicted others for the sanctity of unborn life for marriage for biblical sexuality, etc

37:26

These are my deep and vital convictions and I do my work at Covenant with fixed resolve on these matters Willing to accept all consequences and costs

37:33

But this statement asks for far more of me than that take out the gospel language and I sign in an instant

37:42

Finally response to a friend's question about whether I would prefer a secular argument against abortion gay marriage, etc

37:47

To a deficient Christian biblical gospel argument I responded For the purpose of such common statement among the stated groups

37:54

I would prefer no argument at all to a deficient Christian biblical gospel argument I one which

37:59

I believe is likely to create a misleading impression of common theological conviction about foundational matters Rather let's together state our common convictions about the issues

38:07

Perhaps even acknowledging that we come to those convictions via very different routes or for very different reasons

38:12

Ie we disagree theologically, but we all end up here on the issues and together declare our common intentions to act according to those convictions

38:20

Not surprising the other evangelicals have expressed similar concerns including some of for such reasons decide not to sign the

38:26

Declaration References there to the big three not including me Which would be John MacArthur RC Sproul and Alistair Begg or I think it was

38:34

Mike Mike Horton. Actually, I'll take that back These were the concerns that troubled me over several days

38:40

I contemplated sign the Declaration and I include these messages here to make clear that I undoubtedly along with other evangelical signers wrestled mightily with these issues on the way to signing in fact

38:49

My conversations with folks on both sides of the sign or not sign question had me leaning toward not signing

38:54

At the same time my conviction about the importance of declaring shared commitments regarding the sanctity of human life

39:00

Marriage and religious liberty continued to grow and the conviction was further strengthened as I read the declarations final paragraph

39:06

Which of course has that wonderful line, we will not we will fully and ungrudgingly render the Caesar What is

39:12

Caesar's but under no circumstances we render the Caesar? What is God's? Well, that's wonderful But it doesn't answer any of the objections that dr.

39:21

Nielsen himself has raised He goes on to say I realize as well the declaration while implying that the signers may agree in the nature and meaning the gospel

39:29

Does not define the gospel in any way that I find objectionable ie by signing I was not affirming any heterodox unbiblical view of the gospel my signature and this is important signals

39:39

My agreement with the declaration as it explicitly and specifically stands and nothing more To critics the declaration who say that it implies agreements with Catholics and Orthodox in the nature and meaning the biblical gospel

39:50

I said such implication is possible But certainly not necessary to critics of the declaration who say that it commits the signers to agreement with or Catholics and Orthodox in the nature and meaning they got biblical gospel.

40:01

I say strongly. No, it does not I Disagree with official Catholic and Orthodox understandings of the gospel and embrace wholeheartedly our

40:07

Protestant Reformation Theology grounded scripture and summarized most beautifully and convincingly in the Westminster standards the declaration not only does not in any way

40:14

Violate those standards, but in fact flows from them, of course, I would question how many of the Westminster Divines would have signed the

40:22

Manhattan Declaration That is a question that I would ask Before I read the rest of dr.

40:30

Nielsen's blog entry. I Want to emphasize something that this response is not addressing my main concern

40:38

My main concern is not that al moeller or dr. Nielsen or dr.

40:44

Duncan Are on there are tripping happily skipping down the road on the way to the bridge across the

40:53

Tiber River That that is not my concern My concern is that by signing the declaration?

41:01

There is an implicit agreement with allowance for support of this movement

41:10

That removes the gospel from being absolutely definitional of what?

41:16

Christianity is We saw this in the apologetics conference at Southern evangelical seminary last month where you had

41:25

Roman Catholics and Protestants together to defend the faith What faith well, we couldn't ask that question

41:34

So you've got Dinesh D'Souza debating Christopher Hitchens you have Peter Kreeft presenting a full -blown defensive purgatory as a part of a

41:44

Apologetics conference at Southern evangelical seminary. I consider that a tragedy Now I've been told by someone that a fairly well -known

41:53

Apologist that was there come into someone while I heard James White's quite upset with us about this It's not a matter of being upset with anyone

42:00

It's just a matter of asking the simple question whatever happened to the gospel whatever happened to being

42:08

To defending the very same things the New Testament commands us to defend when did

42:14

Christianity become just the Trinity the deity of Christ the resurrection and Some vague thing called the gospel that you you dare not mention because it'll split up the conference you're speaking at that's where I have a problem and that's

42:30

What I don't think dr. Nielsen's comments actually responded to I think he raised more objections than he's answered

42:38

He goes on to say some have pointed to statements from Chuck Colson These are very statements that I mentioned in the blog last week though the very blog that Pastor bowling mentioned where I was calling for people to remove their names from the statement in Light of the fact that Colson has made it so plain and so clear what the intention of the authors of the statement actually were

42:57

We're getting conflicting stories from the room and I simply have to go with You know fundamentally with the people who wrote it he says some appoint a statement from Chuck Colson which reflect his views about the purpose and hope for outcome of the

43:13

Declaration as Evidence of how misguided evangelicals have been in signing Let me be clear with as much respect and appreciation for Chuck as I have

43:21

I did not and do not Sign on to his commentaries about the Declaration nor do

43:26

I expect him or anyone else to sign on to mine Together we signed the declaration because of what it states so clearly and well and I for one

43:33

Did so with unswerving conviction about the biblical gospel and the biblical doctrines articulated in the Protestant Reformation Well, that's wonderful.

43:39

But again, we're talking about the author here it's like saying well, I signed a document, but I signed

43:46

I wrote a Recommendation for that book, but I don't really agree with what the author said. How does how does that work?

43:55

I Don't I don't quite get that part and then that's where we had

44:03

I must add even given what I've just said that I dearly wish the gospel references had not been included in the

44:09

Declaration They introduced unnecessary ambiguity and provide unnecessary ground for the refusal of many evangelicals to sign unnecessary ground

44:16

No, they provide a perfectly good ground for evangelicals not to sign

44:21

With a more precisely just disciplined focus on the main issues. It addresses the Declaration would have I believe

44:26

Garnered far wider support among evangelicals and enabled this enterprise to have a vastly more far -reaching impact.

44:32

No question about it But that's not what we're dealing with. We're not dealing with a Manhattan Declaration that doesn't talk about the gospel

44:39

We're dealing with a Manhattan Declaration whose authors plainly whose authors the the three main authors are plainly ecumenists and they put the gospel language in there and the people who signed it knew it was there and Chose to sign

44:58

Anyway, yeah, we're go ahead and take a break at this point We'll open up the phone lines as well eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three

45:08

Three three four one is the phone number. I'd especially like to hear from people who would like to who maybe have signed it

45:15

Why did you sign it? What what what was what's your purposes? How do you how do you defend that?

45:21

How do you explain that eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We'll be right back right after this Alpha and Omega ministries is pleased to introduce the

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49:28

Thank you I Shouldn't be overly surprised if you don't have anyone who has

49:45

Declaration listening to the dividing line That shouldn't really surprise me a whole lot

49:51

But if you're just tuning in I probably around four o 'clock should have mentioned that we got started early today

49:57

I did blog that but a lot of folks wouldn't have seen that we got started a half an hour early today so that I could

50:04

Play the comments of dr. J. Ligon Duncan in defense of his signing of the Manhattan Declaration and We still have a few of those to listen to and then take your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and Like I said,

50:20

I'd like to hear from folks who have a different perspective. We do allow those folks on the air

50:26

There was a Catholic apologist that was ripping and shredding and flaming and ad hominemia right and left recently and I Mentioned to you know, why don't you call in and try to back up some of these accusations you're making?

50:40

Well, just hang up on me and he was making reference to a particular person I went back and checked how long that person had been on the on the

50:48

Dividing line had been on like 19 minutes or something like that. And I just asked again Excuse me.

50:54

How long do you think I'd be on Catholic answers live if I called it 19 minutes you think

50:59

I sort of doubt it but anyway Continuing on with With dr.

51:05

Duncan and the very issues you've just raised our issues that we were arguing with one another about you know What is what's the implication of the word

51:11

Christian in this document? What is the implication of the inclusion of the word gospel in this document?

51:17

What is the implication of saying that it's our duty to proclaim the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? So I you know, whatever what you know, if you think that I'm an idiot to have made the judgment

51:28

That's fine, but please know that we were trying to wrestle through these issues It was our it was our view having wrestled through it those of us who signed that this document did not

51:39

Commit us to saying that we agreed With our Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox friends and neighbors on what is the gospel?

51:48

Who is a Christian? What is the true church and that the references to Christianity for instance in the document are they are generic?

51:57

But they are not insignificant. But again, they are in there. They're to indicate part of the historic mainstream

52:03

Trinitarian Christian tradition and that counts for something in terms of social ethics because we do have a shared

52:12

Bible derived view in the area of marriage and sexuality and sanctity of life and Religious liberty and those things are

52:21

Bible derived with regard to the inclusion of the terminology of the gospel In the meeting when we had this discussion,

52:27

I want to emphasize there was no Tacit assumption whatsoever on the part of the people that were there that we were all in agreement on the gospel.

52:36

Yeah Let me just just pause it there for a moment the issue isn't that we are all in agreement on the gospel

52:47

The issue that I have been objecting to is that by using that term gospel in that way

52:52

You really you reduce it to the least common denominator gospel You and you watch that the places where you disagree become non -definitional of what the gospel is

53:04

I hope you see the difference You know, maybe some people are making the assertion oh they're saying we all agree on the gospel

53:13

I never assumed that the danger I see is the reduction of the specificity of the gospel and That there's already such a push for this already.

53:24

And in fact, ironically, I know that dr. Duncan has spoken on this that's what you see in in new perspectivism is is a an abandonment of high gospel truth in regards the imputation the righteousness of Christ and things like this a drawing back now a lot of that's due to a collapse in The view of Scripture and its perspicuity and its inspiration and all sorts of things like that but that's what's going on in those situations and When you have so many people like Chuck Colson introducing great

54:02

Confusion as to what can and cannot be defined about the gospel the difference is then you see ecumenist

54:10

Ecumenist are dangerous people ecumenist By not becoming

54:17

Roman Catholics are In essence saying that the areas that they have of disagreement as long as they're willing to say oh, but we're all

54:25

Christians The areas of disagreement on the gospel do not define the

54:32

Christian faith they are side issues not definitional issues you see and That's what makes them dangerous is by their very existence

54:44

They lead to a lessening of the clarity of the gospel that is my concern

54:49

I sat almost next to one another in between us was a dear big man Archbishop Dolan of New York I assure you

54:56

That the three of us did not sit at the cable and come to the conclusion that we all agreed on on the gospel what?

55:02

We did agree on here's my question And this takes me back I wasn't gonna mention this but this takes me back to my initial response to evangelicals and Catholics together and my

55:12

Reflections on my time with Operation Rescue which was back in the 1980s and Why I had to stop that association

55:23

He just said we didn't we didn't know what we weren't assuming we all agreed on the gospel did anyone witness to the man about what the gospel is and Could you have done so without blowing the meeting?

55:39

Sky -high could you have looked at Archbishop Dolan and Said you know

55:48

I Understand that as part of your ordination You are called an altar

55:55

Christus another Christ and That when you celebrate mass you are representing

56:03

The one sacrifice of Calvary and yet it you considered a perpetuatory sacrifice That never perfects you

56:12

Could we look at the book of Hebrews together and and talk about what it teaches about the atonement of Christ?

56:18

What would have happened? Had any of the evangelicals in that room?

56:26

followed that path they would have summarily and invited to leave and There my friends is my problem the rule

56:42

I came up with as a young man back in the 1980s was this

56:47

I Cannot be associated with or put myself in situations Where I could not honestly and openly proclaim the gospel to a lost person for the sake of anything else the sake of any supposed unity and he lets all get together and shake hands and pat him pat our backs and so I can't do it and that Sounds to me like what was going on in that room

57:16

You see from my perspective, you know, I go back to the southern evangelical seminary conference I Would love to have been

57:23

I would have been happy to have been a presenter there as long as I got to debate the Catholics that were there if Peter Kreeft is going to be defending purgatory as long as I could debate it on purgatory but if you really really really believe

57:40

That the gospel of Rome is a false gospel. Why aren't you witnessing these people? Oh, he's a dear man

57:46

Well, then that's all the more reason to witness to him, isn't it? seems to be

57:53

Was that our? proclamation in these three areas is directly tied to our

58:01

Gospel work however differently we can see that gospel work In other words what we were what the what the group was trying to say was these things are not political

58:11

Agendas that have been smuggled into Religious life they actually flow out of the churches understanding of its own mission even though Roman Catholics in Eastern Orthodox and conservative

58:25

Bible -believing Protestants like Al and myself Have very very different conceptions of what that that that that mission is

58:32

We do all agree that our ethics flow out of that mission and is is connected to the gospel

58:40

And that is what was talked about explicitly at the meeting not some sort of a commonality in terms of our

58:46

You know agreement on the gospel Let me say though that for for brothers like John MacArthur and RC Sproul and Alistair Begg who've been through the evangelicals and Catholics together

58:56

Controversy at point -blank range, you know over the last 20 years I understand entirely how they look at the document and say this is just the same language as as ECT used in these points my only rebuttal to that personally,

59:09

I don't think that there is a rebuttal that will

59:14

Satisfy anybody that's concerned about gospel issues Christian issues church issues I don't think there is a textual rebuttal that can ultimately satisfy them about the

59:23

Manhattan Declaration Okay I think I think it all depends on what you see that document fundamentally doing if that document is

59:30

Fundamentally about the three social issues. I think you will have at least less heartburn about the gospel

59:37

Christian church issues if you think that the document is actually an attempt to smuggle in a tacit agreement in these areas

59:46

Under the guise of making a social declaration You will never ever be satisfied with the you know, no matter how good the declarations are on the social issues

59:56

No matter how much you Agree with the social issue statements in the document you won't be satisfied

01:00:02

With with the document and and so I think that is that is part of the judgment call difference between really good

01:00:13

Do you think that you miscalculated? That that you know people aren't going to they're not going to be privy to the conversation that happened at the meeting

01:00:21

All they're going to see is the wording in the text and see do you think it was a miscalculation? That people wouldn't take this in the right manner

01:00:31

Honestly we argued about this Very issue and again it boiled down to a judgment call.

01:00:38

I think that I was not surprised By the strong reaction of some brethren.

01:00:45

I mean, I think I think frankly with some folks Mr. Coulson has so burned these bridges, you know that they just can't see anything

01:00:54

That that he has been involved with not being tainted with ECT, I want to comment on that I'm if that is being meant to say well

01:01:06

You're overreacting to Chuck good old Chuck I've never met

01:01:12

Chuck Colson never will but I don't get invited to those big highfalutin meetings and stuff like that, but I Would have to disagree

01:01:23

The man does have a track record and when you are consistently pushing the same agenda for decades on end

01:01:30

I don't think there's something wrong in going. Hmm It's it's not just Chuck Colson as Timothy George these these are the heart and soul of ECT and So when they are writing a document that makes the specific

01:01:46

References to the gospel that we've been discussing. How can you not see that? I don't think it's just well, you know

01:01:53

He couldn't write anything that people wouldn't jump on well, maybe but hopefully that's not what's motivating me from looking at this in this way

01:02:01

You know, we listen very carefully Timothy George dialoguing with with Frank Beckwith and it was it was it was heartbreaking

01:02:08

To hear someone saying oh, I believe in in the imputation of the righteous Christ, right? I believe in justification by faith, but then reducing those issues to side issues that do not preclude

01:02:20

A false gospel from being identified as a true gospel and it's heartbreaking But that's where these men are and I think sometimes you you know

01:02:29

You sit around you you get into a certain strata and you sort of pal around all these folks and all of a sudden You know, it's sort of hard to say what needs to be said about that That did not surprise me that that was the reaction of some

01:02:41

I do think reading on the whole If you look at criticism of the document on the issues that you've raised today

01:02:48

Those have actually come from the quadrant of the evangelical community. That is most reformed most self -conscious on Gospel issues and that I trust most in the area of those gospel issues

01:03:04

And again, I want to say I'm glad they've raised it. But in general evangelicalism, I Think most people have read the document the way that we intended the document to be read

01:03:13

I don't think there have been very I don't I have not seen anybody who said Finally the conservative

01:03:19

Protestants have come to understand that the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic churches are true churches

01:03:24

Okay, I have to correct this the way that we intended the document to be read who intended it

01:03:31

Charles Coulson or them You see we have we have conflict here this they have very different purposes for why they signed it and what they interpret it to actually have meant and The issue is not oh, we're all just true churches.

01:03:46

We're all just one, you know, happy Christian family again The issue is that the places where the gospel is violated and from my perspective

01:03:57

Especially by Roman Catholicism. The Holy St. Orthodox question is a much more complex question because you just can't define things as easily

01:04:05

But let's stick with Rome at the moment. That's where my expertise lies to allow the language of the document

01:04:13

To speak as it does is to remove the gospel Which is the only power given to the church to change the hearts of my of men and women

01:04:22

It's to remove that from the proclamation. It's to remove that as being the actual answer and To direct us to what?

01:04:32

That has been my criticism all along. It's not over. I'll just one big happy family

01:04:38

It is what divides us doesn't really matter Anymore and It's the very things that divide us that determine how the heart is changed

01:04:49

So that the person who has the wrong views of marriage sinful views of marriage

01:04:55

Can be regenerated be a Christian and have their hearts open to the right views of such things

01:05:03

These are spiritual issues their gospel issues It's the very gospel itself that is sort of getting run over in the process that we all agree on the gospel and we're all

01:05:11

Christians Anybody out there in general evangelicalism

01:05:16

Having that read on the document the the concerns on the document all from the other end

01:05:23

From that standpoint. I do think the document has been successful in being read both by the media and by the general

01:05:31

Population, in fact, it's been kind of funny to me The only thing the media has really zeroed in on is it has gone apoplectic

01:05:38

About the fact that we have said that civil disobedience in some cases is the appropriate response to unjust unbiblical laws

01:05:46

They have gone absolutely spare over that. I Time is passing.

01:05:52

We've got two colors online I want to get to three more clips and then we'll go to to our callers. Here's a conversation a discussion

01:05:59

Very briefly on what Christians means this the caller is called in actually, I think this is a

01:06:04

Twitter thing What did what does Christians mean in this document notice how it has to be defined for this to work the sheep?

01:06:12

He says what do you mean by quote? We are Christians as it relates to Catholics and Orthodox.

01:06:20

I think we've been discussing that a little bit But if you would please yep that we are all part of the historic

01:06:26

Trinitarian Tradition of the church just like you would teach it in church history class. Okay, your

01:06:32

Christendom is what we're talking. Okay? Nothing more. That's not a statement about our status of regeneration our agreement in the gospel our doctrinal agreement in soteriology our recognition

01:06:43

There's not a Roman Catholic Archbishop in that room That thought in signing that document that he was rejecting

01:06:48

Vatican twos Declaration that you and I Kevin are not even in churches.

01:06:53

We are in what that can do calls ecclesial communities but I Bet there was a

01:07:01

Roman Catholic Archbishop in that room that was going what a benefit That those who are the strongest critics of our gospel are signing a document that nowhere mentions those very

01:07:16

Issues of the gospel that they criticize us for and Call us

01:07:22

Christians. That's all they need. That's all they want and That's really the problem at that point that that that's that that Again, that maybe could build this into your answer

01:07:35

Lagan Do the benefits of unity against social issues?

01:07:43

Outweigh the dangers of confusing the gospel in the terminology. Yeah, maybe

01:07:48

I could put it that way Yeah, thank you One is

01:07:55

I would want to say on behalf of my brothers that disagree with me on this and who do not think you ought

01:08:00

To sign the Manhattan Declaration. They would agree with what this brother who's just called in they would agree with his

01:08:07

Emphasis on our being salt in life Salt and light they they are not denying the validity or the importance of these social issues or Saying that they are unwilling to be involved themselves

01:08:21

I would want to say that on behalf of those who've been critical of my position or others who have signed it that they

01:08:26

Themselves agree that Christians need to be working in these areas. They all said that in those statements, too

01:08:33

I should point that out Their statements they've been Alistair John RC have made that it made that clear

01:08:40

So I want to I want to give I want to give them that I'm not Coming back at them and claiming that my side is the only side that cares about these things, you know

01:08:49

They've made it clear. They care to their concern is gospel clarity if the issue boils down to gospel clarity

01:08:55

I don't want to downplay that issue Kevin In other words if a person if John James RC and Alistair Think that this ultimately is not is a gospel clarity issue

01:09:07

I don't want in any way to diminish the importance of what they're saying. I mean good grief

01:09:12

I'm in the gospel coalition and together for the gospel and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals We're all about being clear about the gospel my whole life in ministry has been about being clear about the gospel

01:09:25

I've been willing to Suffer enormous losses for the sake of being clear about the gospel

01:09:32

I always will and so if these brothers concern is about that. I don't want to diminish that concern

01:09:37

I just didn't think that my personal signing of the document made it unclear as to where I stood on those issues now

01:09:43

Maybe I was assuming that people were going to give me the benefit of the doubt because of my track record and maybe

01:09:49

I was asking them to do more than I had to do because I had the benefit of the whole discussion in the Context of the room and they just had to pick up the document out of the blue Not only picking it up out of the blue, but hearing mr.

01:10:00

Colson introduced it and and and all the associations that came From ECT so I understand those concerns and I all again

01:10:09

I just want to say if a person is fundamentally concerned that this is unclear or confuses matters about the gospel then

01:10:15

I am so Committed to that concern that I would just rather the person if they if they feel it signing it compromises that don't do it

01:10:23

Then just stay away from it. And then the other issue is is there another way to do this? Could you could you do this? Could you come up with a document that was?

01:10:31

Crafted by evangelicals that didn't have these problems. I think you could I mean, I do know if Al Mohler drafted this document

01:10:38

I assure you we would not be having this discussion Or at least the only discussion would be well, even though the document is pristine perfect should you sign a document with Roman Catholics and either

01:10:51

Eastern Orthodox and comport an agreement that may not be actually there so how about we have a document that applies the gospel of Jesus Christ to these three issues and Warns of the wrath of God coming against any nation that promotes homosexuality blasphemes marriage kills the unborn and the elderly

01:11:24

And persecutes the people of God. Oh Wait a minute that that ain't gonna fly real well in our society now

01:11:33

Is it that's it and and that's that's that's what I preached about a couple weeks ago at the

01:11:39

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is that what's missing in this document are some very key elements of The wrath and judgment of God against the sin of man and I don't think it'd be all that difficult to write a 4732 word document that would address those issues, but would not require us to be

01:12:02

Tying ourselves in knots to redefine the gospel and Christianity and everything else

01:12:08

So before I take the first call here and we're going to talk with Andrew Let me let me summarize what we've heard and how

01:12:16

I've responded to it I've obviously had to you know disagree a few points because obviously dr.

01:12:23

Duncan did sign it and It just strikes me that especially in reading. Dr. Nielsen's comments on The conversations that were going on beforehand.

01:12:33

I haven't heard Satisfying responses to the objections that dr.

01:12:39

Nielsen raised to the document himself which he eventually signed I don't believe the responses that were offered were sufficient and I Fully accept what dr.

01:12:53

Mohler and dr. Duncan say they understood when they signed it But I immediately go why then is there such a fundamental confusion?

01:13:04

Regarding the actual intention of the language Between the authors of the document and the signers of the document if you were all in the same room and May I suggest that that confusion comes when you try to get people together?

01:13:24

Who are fundamentally at odds with one another on the gospel itself? I Don't see

01:13:32

Paul getting together with the Judaizers in Galatia and saying you know what there's some real social evils in Asia Minor Let's write a document together that will tell the

01:13:47

Roman authorities that we together Stand against these things

01:13:53

Maybe I'm just a backwards mean nasty Calvinist guy that's what everybody likes to say, but I don't see any reason to think that he would have done that and Something tells me if he had tried it would have led the very same kind of confusion

01:14:10

That we now see coming out as we listen to men from whom we've learned much who signed it and men from whom we learn much who haven't signed it and they seem to be at loggerheads with one another and I think that's exactly what ecumenism produces and will always produce

01:14:31

So with that let's go up to the frozen tundra of Minnesota and talk with Andrew.

01:14:38

Hi Andrew. Hi. How you doing? Yeah frozen tundra indeed I heard you complaining about 47 degrees the other day

01:14:45

It was a four below when I walked to work the other morning. I was born in Robbinsdale So you can't really pick on me too much.

01:14:52

Okay fair enough Fair enough. I wanted to say You and I aren't going to have a disagreement here, but I had originally gone on the internet and signed this document

01:15:04

But I've since thought maybe I shouldn't have done that For many of the reasons that that you've been bringing up here listening to what

01:15:15

John MacArthur has to say Dr. Stroll yourself And what

01:15:21

I didn't consider Well, I mean obviously, you know Catholic bishops and and we as reformed

01:15:28

Christians We know we have different ideas what the gospel is What I didn't consider is what what it would say to the people on the outside looking in.

01:15:36

Mm -hmm, you know, right you're saying You know who maybe maybe going? Okay, you know, maybe there's something to this

01:15:42

Christianity thing or not Oh, I could just be a an Orthodox or a Catholic or whatever, you know, I hadn't considered that Well, let me ask you what what initially?

01:15:52

caused you to Consider signing it in the first place. What was the what was the impetus to go look at it?

01:15:58

Or is it just oh you heard about it. You read it said. Hey, that sounds good. I'll sign it I heard about it. I knew there was some controversy

01:16:06

I Read it and then I have to admit without really giving it as much thought as I as I should have that it's against abortion and you know standing up for true to for a

01:16:18

Christian marriage and You know all that and thought well that sounds good to me, you know without taking into account

01:16:26

Again, some of the things that you're saying that Dr. MacArthur, dr Sproul are saying and that that's kind of the combination of Of course agreeing on those issues and then not thinking about the other ones that have been brought up by other people, right?

01:16:41

Yeah. Well, I fully understand. I mean, I I know many people who have

01:16:48

You know benefited from various the people who have signed it and who have been promoting it and it just sounds like hey we're just all getting together as Generic Christians, whatever in the world that is and we're saying, you know, we're not going to take it anymore and You know

01:17:04

It says all sorts of good true things about marriage and sexuality and life and freedom

01:17:11

And so let's let's go for it But this is the same issue that keeps coming up over and over again

01:17:18

How do you change anyone's heart or mind? from an enmity toward God which is the source then of false views of Sexuality and life and marriage and freedom.

01:17:32

How do you change their hearts? Is it by getting as Chuck Colson indicated he'd like to see a million

01:17:39

Christians Sign this document is that what's gonna change people's minds and they go.

01:17:45

Wow There's a million people who believe this I suppose I should think about this, right?

01:17:51

Well, if we have a view of sin and we have a view of mankind That basically says that we do things based upon, you know

01:17:59

We're sort of morally neutral creatures and we just you know, we can be swayed by that kind of stuff

01:18:04

Well, okay, then I guess you'd want to sign something like that but if you actually believe That man is a rebel against God and that there needs to be this radical alteration

01:18:15

This change called regeneration where you take a God hater and turn them into a

01:18:21

God lover Then what's the only means by which that happens? Well, it's the gospel of Jesus Christ right alive in the heart by the

01:18:28

Spirit of God so That to me it seems very obvious But there are so many today because of the ecumenical movement who have paired off All of those rough edges of the gospel so that you have a least common denominator gospel that can unite

01:18:49

The three great traditional branches of Christianity blah blah blah And the problem is that gospel ends up being a social gospel it does not end up being the gospel of the

01:19:01

New Testament and As as unpopular as that makes you in the world's perspective someone's got to stand up and say whoa

01:19:10

Hit the hit the brakes here folks You know, it's it's wonderful to want to do something.

01:19:16

We're all frustrated. Let's face it every day We turn on the television. We read our RSS feeds our online sources, whatever and we are frustrated at the advance of secularism

01:19:26

The the trampling on our rights the the blasphemy against the the Word of God and the law of God That is being promoted by the highest elected officials in our land

01:19:36

And so we're frustrated and so it's real easy out of frustration to say I want to do something

01:19:42

But the problem is when people offer us things we can quote -unquote do

01:19:47

Are is the doing of those things consistent with the only long -term solution?

01:19:54

Which is the bringing of repentance that was to this society. Am I am I still on?

01:19:59

Yes, you are. Okay It wasn't what wasn't sure that was you know Now that you say that that was part of it because it more and more it feels like you know

01:20:08

I don't even have a voice here. Yeah, you know, and it's very tempting to go, you know,

01:20:13

I mean, especially You know the Roman Catholic Church is this big institution is visible everybody can see it attempting to go

01:20:22

Well, everybody can see that but you know Sort of let them be your fullback

01:20:29

Yeah, yeah, you're on the goal line. Let him punch it through right that doesn't work No, I'm kind of you know, that's kind of what's made me rethink.

01:20:37

That is ultimately the question is What does what does change things in if it's the gospel then what's that?

01:20:45

You know, right. That's that's kind of anyways. I'll let whoever else is on the phone John now, but All right, thank you

01:20:51

Andrew and I'm glad the discussion was was of assistance to you Merry Christmas stay warm up there

01:20:59

It's seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's talk to our old friend Arlen. Hi Arlen Hi, dr.

01:21:06

White. Hi Well, my question is essentially this

01:21:12

While waiting to be on I mean I've given some of the Manhattan Declaration a few other things and What exactly is

01:21:19

Chuck Colson? preaching in his ministry, which is apparently a Evangelical gospel preaching ministry to save people in prison prison fellowship

01:21:30

I looked at the Manhattan Declaration There are three references to gospel each of them refers to us our we referring to Orthodox Catholic and evangelical

01:21:39

So it's clear that these writers think in some sense that the Orthodox and Catholics preach a valid gospel and I frame the question and I read through a bit of the

01:21:50

Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary by St. Bonaventure Which is ironic and I live in San Bonaventura.

01:21:57

Ah, there you go. Yeah. Well now they know where to come get you too so that's that's a bad thing, but Well, I I can only comment on the fact that Going back to his book the body and Looking at what

01:22:12

Charles Colson has been up to since 1994 and evangelicals and Catholics together it has been again this promotion of a

01:22:21

Gospel that is a least common denominator gospel It is a gospel that does not have sufficient specificity to exclude anything.

01:22:32

That would be a false gospel You know, he will draw the line at the Trinity With the

01:22:39

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and people like that but when it comes to defining the issues of the gospel that Paul defined in the book of Galatians as Having to do with what is a false gospel and what is a true gospel and you'll find all sorts of people today

01:22:55

Especially apostate Protestants who have become Roman Catholics Who are

01:23:01

Developing new ways of trying to get around the application of Paul's words to Rome's gospel which which works as long as you

01:23:10

Don't define Rome's gospel as it historically has defined it itself in regards to things like purgatory in the mass and things like that the these these individuals

01:23:23

Are promoting a least common denominator type of Gospel that that's you don't have to talk about that kind of stuff

01:23:31

We can just we can move that from the definitional area over into another area where hey

01:23:37

You know if you all want to talk and debate about that, that's fine. But these these don't really impact the gospel itself

01:23:44

We have this least common denominator gospel. So now we can all get together and so When we when we minister in the prisons, you know, we can you know

01:23:52

If you want to go to the Catholic chaplain or the East Northwest chaplain or the Protestant chaplain, that's fine

01:23:57

You know it we need to be building consensus here. You see, you know, it's it's very

01:24:03

Popular in our in our postmodern context to use that kind of language You were playing said something to the nature of oh when we intended

01:24:14

Our intention in writing this wasn't really about the gospel besides the fact that they actually use the term in the

01:24:20

Declaration But you know, that's neither here nor there. They seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth, but The gospel is the core of our faith.

01:24:28

What what do these people think they're proclaiming if they're proclaiming something so rudimentary why limit it? Again, when you when you go back you listen to Frank Beckwith and then by the way

01:24:37

That was that was dr. J. Ligon Duncan, and he's not the one who wrote it It was it was

01:24:42

Colson and Timothy George and a Roman Catholic who actually did the writing of the of the draft of the document

01:24:48

But they had some input into what was in it though seemingly from reading

01:24:53

Neil Nielsen's blog the the gospel Conversation the gospel references did come from them and evidently

01:25:02

I guess we're not we're non -negotiable. I suppose. I don't know I mean if Nielsen had such a problem with it.

01:25:08

I wonder why those things are still there. But anyway It certainly is not his intention to speak in that way

01:25:14

But that's the the muddled result that comes when you're dealing with with ecumenists is you have this what they call mere

01:25:22

Christianity view of the gospel and this is what Frank Beckwith was involved with was a mere

01:25:28

Christianity view of the gospel where you have this boiled -down version that is very non -specific and You know,

01:25:37

I've pointed out many times, you know, well We all say Jesus is Lord. Just don't ask us what that means

01:25:44

Don't don't Matt don't ask us for enough specificity to make application as to what the

01:25:49

Lordship of Christ actually Means and what it what it accomplishes and and what ramifications it has and all the rest that stuff that's the kind of mere

01:26:00

Christianity stuff that is very very popular today and unfortunately that is what I think is behind much of what's

01:26:10

Bringing about the confusion in the Manhattan Declaration. Yeah, the only last thing I would I would leave with is

01:26:15

When reading this Psalter of the Blessed Virgin, I mean, I presume these Catholics believe that the ones who signed the declaration just it's it's their

01:26:22

St. Bonaventure Blessed is the man. Oh Virgin Mary who loved thy name by grace will comfort his soul from one of the

01:26:31

Psalter of the Blessed Virgin Mary That Jesus is Lord or it sounds like this.

01:26:36

Mary is Lord in a lot of a lot of these circles Well again For folks who don't know what's being referred to there on our blog recently we've linked to this

01:26:46

Psalter of Hymns of worship to Mary which are based upon the

01:26:52

Psalms themselves and some of them are just simply taking God out and putting Mary in that that's the level of blasphemy that is here

01:27:00

But you you know, I don't have time right now But I'll never forget talking with Jerry Matitox and reading a blasphemous

01:27:08

Marian prayer on Weezy in Boston and expecting him to go. Oh, that's just Marian piety.

01:27:14

Blah blah blah and he looked through a very similar field of Microphones I have here in front of me and said to me mr.

01:27:21

White I look forward to the day when you can pray those prayers with me. I don't hear Roman Catholics Denigrating putting down renouncing that kind of literature

01:27:34

Even though you would think they would have to to be able to continue on Arlen. Thank you very much for your phone call today

01:27:40

Thank you to Andrew as well. Thank you to all of you who have listened to the program today We went half an hour long because I felt it was important to address the issue to try to find a place of balance

01:27:51

We don't need to be throwing Good men like J. Ligon Duncan and dr.

01:27:56

Albert Moller Under the bus we need to hear why they signed the document

01:28:02

But that doesn't then change the reality that I believe that the signing of the document leads to confusion

01:28:07

If we allow for authorial intent in interpreting the document from Chuck Colson and Timothy George and others

01:28:14

It is an ecumenical compromise the gospel and I once again When Chuck Colson can say that this is a catechism the

01:28:22

Christian faith the means of revitalizing the church in America That's what they think this type of ecumenism is going to accomplish and we don't need to have anything to do with that We need to clarify the gospel and proclaim it and so I renew my call for everyone who has signed that document

01:28:37

To withdraw their signature and in so doing give a testimony for the clarity of the gospel

01:28:43

That's the only way in which something can really be accomplished. Thanks for listening. God bless. We'll see you next time The Dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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