The American Churchman: Finance Capital: Is it Biblical?

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00:24

And welcome once again to the American Churchman podcast. One day early, we usually stream

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Tuesdays, but because of scheduling conflicts and difficulties, actually, I'm not sure if this is related to the fourth or if it was just your work schedule,

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Matthew. We're doing it on a Monday, though. So here you go. Yeah, how was your fourth?

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Mine was good. What was yours like? Oh, mine was good, too. We just, you know, I'm not really with my family in Tampa this year, so I just, you know, hung out with my fiance and, you know, we hung out with some of our friends and all that.

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We'd, you know, cook some food. We were able to, you know, have some cigars with some people.

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She didn't smoke any cigars, though. But it was a good time, you know, got to hang out with her and her brother. And a buddy of mine was in town visiting his brother, who

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I hadn't seen my buddy in like a year, so it was really nice to be able to see him catch up. But it was a good time, good and patriotic, good patriotic time.

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You saw fireworks? I did, yeah, in the distance. We didn't have any ourselves, so, but it was nice.

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Gotcha, yeah, we have fireworks at the end of our street. So if you go to the end of my road, you're on the

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Hudson River, and there's a walkway that is really popular there, and the state runs it, and so they have a budget, and they put on a pretty good firework show.

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And it's funny, as they're doing it, you can see in the distance two other firework shows. So you got to enjoy three of them, which is really cool.

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And we smoked some meat. We had some ribs and pulled pork, and we're actually doing a birthday party this, we're hosting again this week.

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So I broke the bank, and I decided to get a brisket, which I don't know if you ever, if you buy beef, brisket especially, it is very expensive.

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Oh, I can imagine, yeah. Yeah, and I'm like trying to figure, I might write it off.

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I might do a video on how I smoke brisket, and then it's part of the

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YouTube channel or something that I do, so. Do it, do it. You got to justify it somehow.

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It's so good, though. So anyway, we had a good time, and had some friends over, had some family over.

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And I love the Fourth. Fourth is one of my favorite holidays. If I was trying to debate, is it my favorite? Probably not.

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Christmas is up there. Christmas, I think, is my number one. But after that,

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I know you're supposed to say Easter or Resurrection Sunday, but I do think the Fourth is my favorite season, because everyone's just relaxed.

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You just get into a vacation mode, even if you have a lot to do. Everyone's just kind of kicking it back, and they know at least that one weekend they're gonna be chilling.

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And for the next two years, I think it's gonna be on the weekend. So it'll be, yeah, this is

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Friday. I think next year it's Saturday, and then a year after that, it's Sunday, if I'm not mistaken. But anyway. Yeah, so I hope that everyone out there who's streaming with us had a good

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Fourth of July. And we have a lot to talk about today. And I was just talking to Matthew before the podcast.

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We're probably not the best two people to talk about this subject, but maybe that makes us better to talk about it, because we're coming at this from somewhat of an average guy and not a finance

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Wall Street person, which in my time, I've heard a lot of Wall Street people, financial investors and so forth, talk about the topic we're gonna be bringing up, which is fractional reserve banking and inflation, and whether or not the system that we participate in is just or sinful.

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And there's an article on TruthScript that we're gonna be discussing. By the way, I should mention, if you like the program, if you like what you see us talk about, then you wanna support

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TruthScript. You can just go to truthscript .com, scroll down to the bottom, and there's a donate tab where we are, 501c3.

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There's also a submit tab, or I think it's submit, submit an article if you wanna write for us.

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But that's the organization that our podcast falls under. So check them out. We have a men's retreat coming up and it's gonna be great.

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So musicandmasculinity .com if you wanna sign up for that. Anyway, let's get into the article a little bit here.

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And I'm kind of curious to see what comments we have during this, because I think they might add a lot to this particular conversation.

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But the article is a biblical financial stewardship exploring an alternative.

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And this particular article is a little bit longer. Some of our articles are longer.

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This is one of them by William Fullington. William Fullington is, I'll click on it, a ruling elder with Grace Covenant Reform Church in Clovis, New Mexico.

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He's also a Nelson Nash Institute authorized practitioner and founder of Reform Finance LLC. So he is definitely working with money.

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And this is established to enable families and churches to take control of the banking function to the glory of God.

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So I'm assuming William would probably want people contacting him if they have questions about this.

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There's, just going to Christian conferences. I don't know if you've seen this, Matt, maybe before we get into the article. There is a lot of enthusiasm today on alternatives to try to get us out of the system we're in, whether it's

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Bitcoin. I don't know if you've run into the Bitcoin people. And they are a tribe. They are people. They're very into Bitcoin.

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And they want you to be into Bitcoin. And they see all the strengths. I had, I think it was

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Jonathan Song was the guy's name, but he wrote a book called Thank God for Bitcoin. And I had him on a few years ago.

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And a lot of the guys who have read his book are very into Bitcoin. And then you have guys, there was one guy at a conference

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I was at recently who said you can actually, and I never really looked into it, probably should have, but who's got time.

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But anyway, he had this whole strategy for writing off a lot of your groceries and just your living expenses if you incorporate your family.

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I don't know how that works, but I've never heard of it. It was the first time. But there's certainly an interest out there in trying to find alternatives that get us out of the system that we're in, which obviously has inflation and investments that go south when the stock market takes a dip.

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And it just feels like sometimes you're trying to get ahead and you can't. So have you run into any of those

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Christian alternatives? Budget alternatives, that kind of thing?

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Dave Rand. Yeah, not necessarily. Yeah, no, I mean, I know a few guys that are super into Bitcoin.

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And then I also, it's always nice to talk to these guys sometimes because when you do, you realize, wow,

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I'm not as smart as I think I am in certain subjects. I'm sure if I just put a modicum of research into it,

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I can maybe get a broad understanding of how it works and all that. But it's just the enthusiasm they have.

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And then you also see their lifestyle and the freedom that they have. It's interesting to see how they make this sort of thing work in an alternative way.

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I know one guy and he's very into all the Bitcoin stuff. He'll do conferences and things like that.

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He'll lead seminars. And he's explaining it to me and he's like, I've never had so much financial freedom before.

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And a lot of these guys, they're big believers in it because they see this system, you could call it a few different things, but the banking system and all that and the global American empire is like, the way that everything operates now is part of the way they control you.

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And so through pursuing that, these are like, through pursuing that, you can have freedom away from that.

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And a lot of these guys are our guys as well. They're not all just crazy crack pop libertarians of,

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I have my rainbow flag. My rainbow flag and my weed and my AR -15 and the government better stay off.

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They're not all like that though. They all do have their libertarian bends and preferences of course, because that's part of the way they get into it is through this libertarian pipeline and they come out that way.

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But no, I know a few guys that are really into it. Yeah, I think also the homesteading is another avenue people go.

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I was talking to John Moody not long ago and he was saying something like, look, you can write off whatever it is, 30 % of, well not write off, but you aren't taxed

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I should say. On 30 % of your groceries, if you just do some simple things, if you have like two acres, right?

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Just grow certain things, keep some animals and you're not taxed.

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It's straight profit and it's not something that you're maybe thinking in terms of because we're so used to thinking in terms of everything with a price tag, a dollar amount.

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But obviously you're buying value is what's important. And so I'm interested in some of these things.

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I like to hear guys talk about some of this stuff. There's certainly personality types that often run with, so like the guys who are into Bitcoin I've noticed tend to be very minimalistic in general.

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When you meet them, they tend to be more minimalist. They just don't, they like to be on the go.

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They like to have the flexibility also of a lifestyle where there's a lot of travel and that kind of thing.

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And the guys who are more like the homesteaders aren't as much like that, right? Cause they got to stay in a fixed location.

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And so, and there's overlap in these worlds as well. So I mean, it's a fascinating thing.

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I'm no expert on it, but I think this article will be interesting to talk about because it does think outside the box a bit on some of this.

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And it gets into something that I know you are interested in and I am, which is what does the Bible teach on the subject of money and finance?

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And that's something I think all Christians should be interested in, whether or not they're interested in Bitcoin or homesteading or any of the alternatives out there to the fractional reserve banking system we have.

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So let's just read it and we'll talk about it as we go. And we'll read comments. If you guys have comments out there, we'd love to hear from you, especially if there's finance guys who know more than us.

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I'm trying to stretch back like 20 years into my economics classes to remember all of this. But it starts out with a quote from Thorsten Poliate.

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And it says, from a Christian perspective, one could consider the acceptance and spread of fiat money. Fiat money is just government issued legal tender, right?

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So the dollar as a grave sin. A reflection of the flawed state of humanity separated from God and leading a misguided life.

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Fiat money stands for deceit, false testimony, and the insidious plundering of some by others.

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Now that seems pretty out there. And I think maybe he wanted to open with that provocative line so that he could then argue to that point.

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So he says, modern financial systems built on fiat money, fractional reserve banking and inflation violate

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God's law, eroding stewardship and enslaving our neighbors through deceitful wealth transfers and dependence on these systems to provide our need for finance.

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Following the exposition of the Westminster Divines, this article seeks to expose these systems as sins prohibited by the eighth commandment and contrast these systems with the duties imposed by the same commandment.

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By tracing money's manipulation from central banks to market speculation, we uncover a system at odds with biblical principles.

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Yet hope remains. The infinite banking concept offers a practical path to reclaim control, give generously and find peace, aligning our finances with God's word.

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Join us to explore why Christians must reject the ways of Wall Street and Jekyll Island, so that's the federal reserve, and embrace a wiser alternative.

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So I wanna stop there just before we even get into the arguments here and just get your take on this,

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Matthew. I'm a little uncomfortable with calling it sin or sins.

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How does he say it? He says that following, let's see, these systems as sins.

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He says these systems are sinful or sins. I would just wanna be careful there because I think

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I'm kind of still reacting to the social justice stuff where they would say things like our international trade patterns that benefit certain classes of people or benefit

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America mean that everyone in the United States is sinful or everyone who's white is sinful or everyone who's

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A, B, or C just because they allegedly benefit from a system, whether or not they do.

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Usually it wasn't exactly true, but even if it is true, I just have an aversion to that.

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Am I sinful by going to Walmart? Well, maybe

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I am with, let's pick a mom and pop store. Mom and pop store in our community, we could all get behind that just about.

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And I go there and I use fiat money. I use the government issue dollar to pay for it.

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I have a very hard time calling that sin. I don't think scripture calls that sin. In fact, even during Jesus's time, there was government issued money.

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Obviously it was precious metals and things like that, but there was the imprint of Caesar or some kind of cultural thing.

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I don't wanna say that that's a sin. I don't want anyone to be confused. I'm not saying the author is necessarily saying that, but it sounds like you could draw that conclusion.

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So that's my caveat. So what do you think of that? Yeah, in regard to that,

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I think that there's like a few distinctions that need to be made, I guess. Like with his article and the claim made there, his claim is specifically is that the system itself is sinful.

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And so, I know that may like click your SJW, your social justice and the church radar may be going off.

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But the big thing with them was their understanding was that participation in the system was always like somewhat sinful in and of itself.

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Like I've had conversations with people like that who would make that claim and that sort of like follows like the leftist pattern of, oh, you're on colonized land, you're on indigenous land and you're participating in the system where the left they'll predicate the sins of you if you're even like operating within the system.

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But I think that you can make the claim that the system is sinful without necessarily saying that every single person who is a participant is committing a sin or themselves is like, grieving sin on themselves.

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And like part of the way that you would sort of make this distinction is like if you have the opportunity to go after the alternative, which is more just in not doing that, you're doing like a sin of omission, you can maybe make that claim.

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But everybody who's in the system, if this is just like the way that it's ingrained around you and you don't have any means or opportunity to make change in that regard,

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I would say that there's a lesser degree of sin, perhaps that can be like put on you.

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And at that point, you're operating in a sinful world as is and you're doing like the only thing you can.

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Something I actually thought of is that in one of Dabney's works, Dabney spoke about polygamy and he was saying that like the entering in of the union itself, like of multiple brides is in and of itself a sin, but severing that union as well, like through a divorce is also sin.

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So what he was basically saying is that something which is entered into sinfully, if like torn asunder is also sin.

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So yes, this was entered into sinfully. And yes, the context he was talking about was evangelizing like these indigenous tribes in like whatever country or nation or whatever, that they're a polygamous society and how to Christianize them.

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And like he was going on about how these people may be in these marriages, but part of the way in prudentially handling is not divorcing them.

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Of course you prohibit the office of elder to them, but they need to be faithful to their wives because even though the union entered into was sinful, they need to steward what they've received.

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And so I think that you can apply that sort of thinking in the same way right now, that if you're a participant in the system and it's like the only thing you can do right now, that you just need to be a good steward of what you've received, even if you're in a system which is not the best in and of itself.

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That sort of is how I would say it. I would say that even aligns with what the author of the article is saying as well.

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And I also say that as someone who like, I don't have like a hard set opinion on our current financial system and the banking system and all that stuff.

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So John, I'm sitting here and I'm learning with you, but I think that like having that sort of framework may help guide us in discerning the truth behind like the claims here and things like that.

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I also, I do like that this guy is, a solid reformed fella as well, who seeks to not only go through what scripture says, but even to give an exposition of how the

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Westminster divines view the Eighth Commandment. So I'm excited to talk about that as well and I'll look further into it.

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But I don't know if my comment there I said was helpful, but I think that Dabney gives like a good paradigm when he's talking about polygamous unions there at least.

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Yeah, no, I think that's good. I think, yeah, more could be said, maybe we will say more.

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We do need to read more of the article here though. Let's see why he says it's sinful. So he says on the value of money, money can have value in and of itself as Karl Menger explains, money is simply the most salable commodity.

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The value of money lies in its ability to be exchanged for other goods or services. In the United States, the unit of currency is the

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US dollar, which can be directly exchanged for anything we need. The stockpile of gold, silver or dollars is only valuable because of what it can be exchanged for.

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A million dollars in a 401k is valuable only because you anticipate exchanging it for necessities during retirement.

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So obviously this is the difference between the dollar amount and the buying power. Buying power changes, if you look at those old memes where it will show, the memes aren't old, but it'll show like the value of a penny in 1950 and what it could buy you.

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And then today, what a penny, a penny doesn't do anything. So that's the difference between obviously the physical dollar amount and then the buying power.

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Every nation in the world operates with fiat money, which is a currency declared legal tender and not backed up by any physical commodity.

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Its value depends on public perception and trust in the issuing government. The value of the dollar is manipulated through control of the money supply and interest rates.

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As Takano notes, fiat money is a currency of unlimited money violating a necessary characteristic of money, which is scarcity.

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The supply is controlled by the central banks through fractional reserve banking. A 1951 pamphlet published by the

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Federal Reserve notes that the most important operation of banks besides the safekeeping of money is that banks can create money.

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Fractional reserve banking is the system that allows this legalized counterfeiting. This system allows banks to retain only a fraction of their customers' deposits as reserves while issuing loans far exceeding those reserves.

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A bank is a place where money is stored or accumulated, much like a snow bank is an accumulation of snow.

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Banking involves the storage and movement of money through credit loans and repayment. Okay, so let's stop there.

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Maybe there's two things at play here. So he's talking about fiat money, which isn't backed up by a precious metal, which obviously is different than Jesus' time.

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But at the same time, obviously there is something, there is some reason people are valuing the dollar.

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There's a reason that even foreign tenders, legal tenders are often tied to the dollar.

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It's the international unit of trade. And I think that obviously the might of America's military,

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America's domination for the past 70 years in international affairs has led to this situation.

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It's the stability of the American markets. You might think that's a funny joke, but it's compared to other countries, the

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United States has been more stable. And I've thought for years, we're near the end, we're in debt, we have inflation, something's gonna break.

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And everyone else is doing so much worse off though. So it's like, it doesn't happen because we're still more stable.

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And it's really the good name of the United States that is backing up this currency, not in the force of American guns.

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So yes, it's not backed up by gold. And I would say that's incredibly unwise, but that's one issue.

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The other issue is this idea that banks can give out loans far exceeding the amount of money that they hold.

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And I don't know if you've ever seen the movie, It's a Wonderful Life with Jimmy Stewart, but there's that moment where they have a run on the bank, right?

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And everyone's trying to get their money out and they can't because if everyone came at the same time to get their money out, the bank wouldn't have all the money because, and George Bailey, remember he explains to them, he goes, you can't do that because your money's in Sue's house.

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And Sue's house, her money, Sue's money is in Ralph's house, and everyone's money is basically in these loans.

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So it's not here. And that's,

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I think the second thing he's talking about is that this is, I guess what jumps out at me is like, this is incredibly volatile if you get into a situation like that, then you have a run on the bank.

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This is obviously, I think that movie was made with the Great Depression happening the previous 15 years or 20 years before that movie was made.

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So it's like, that's in the rear view mirror, people are thinking about that. And it's something that I know the greatest generation was very afraid would happen again, that there would be a run on banks and that the money wouldn't be there and banks would just start shutting down.

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And then when they shut down, the question is, is the Fed or is the National Bank going to back up?

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Are they going to, like we saw in 2008 with these financial institutions that got the bailouts, you remember that?

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Well, you probably, I don't know if you remember that, but I remember it. And it was because the government just bailed them out.

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They just said, okay, we're just gonna, we're gonna basically create money, right? We're just gonna issue the money, which devalues the currency.

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So this is incredibly unwise. It can land you in a bad spot, but it's like sugar.

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In the moment, it feels good. And it seems like, hey, you can expand your buying power here. You can expand the kinds of things that people can put loans down on because you don't have to actually have the money in reserve there physically.

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That's what he's talking about. And I would agree, those two things are very unwise. And we're gonna get into what scripture says about this, but anything to add to that is my best explanation as a non -economist.

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No, no, I thought that was good. I don't really think I have anything else of value to add. I'm sure, you know, things will come, but yeah, no,

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I think we should keep going with the article. All right, let's do that. All right, so it says this. In demand deposit banking, money is stored with a bank and the depositor receives a receipt such as a check or a demand deposit.

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Instead of redeeming the deposit for cash, the depositor can transfer it to make purchases. Under a full reserve requirement, the amount of claims issued by the bank equals the amount of money stored.

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Thus, if a loan is made, an equivalent amount is unavailable for withdrawals until the loan is repaid.

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In contrast, fractional reserve banking allows banks to issue more claims than the money actually stored.

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Banks are required to keep only a portion of their liabilities, i .e. deposits, as reserves relative to the loans they issue.

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Congressman Wright Patman described fractional reserve banking during a March 21st, 1960 congressional hearing, and this is what he said.

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If I deposit a thousand with my bank and the reserve requirements imposed by the Federal Reserve are 10%, then the bank can make a loan to John Doe of up to $900.

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Where does the $900 come from? It does not come out of my deposit of 1 ,000.

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On the contrary, the bank simply credits John Doe's account with 900. The bank can acquire government obligations by the same procedure.

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By simply creating deposits to the credit of the government, money creating is a power of commercial banks.

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He says the reserve is not an actual cash reserve, but an accounting reserve. The difference between the bank's assets, its loans, and its liabilities, i .e.

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its deposits. All right, so to sum that up or to simplify it, what he's saying here is that, and I'm trying to process it as I'm saying this, he's saying that if there's a loan for, sorry, a deposit for $1 ,000, then that person who made the loan, the bank doesn't need to take from that $1 ,000 to credit the loan.

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They can take, so they can, in other words, they can make an accounting ledger and the money's just there.

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They just have to say it. Oof, it's in existence essentially, right? And this kind of system benefits the people who are really good at finance, who see,

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I don't know if you've seen those videos, Matt, where someone will walk up to a famous, important person who's successful, and they'll say, hey, how do you make the money you make?

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And it's a popular thing on like shorts, on Instagram and stuff. And so I saw this one, it was a financier,

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I guess. And someone walked up to him and said, so you're driving a nice sports car.

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You have a nice suit. Tell me about how much money do you have to have to have the lifestyle that you have?

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And he goes, oh, I'm in debt. Basically, he's negatives. And he goes, oh, that's so bad.

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And the guy goes, oh, no, no, I love debt. He goes, debt's really good because debt is how

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I make money. I make money off of debt. That's my bread and butter, essentially.

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So he says, the larger the debt, the more I like it, because that means I'm controlling more assets.

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And I know real estate a little better. So in real estate, obviously, right now, the interest rates are kind of high.

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But if you get involved in real estate and you start buying houses, let's say, and you start taking out loans to make the down payments on houses, now you've got debt on top of debt.

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Well, if the housing market, if you are really good in real estate and the housing market is gonna go up, or you're investing in an area that the housing market's gonna go up, then that debt's really good for you,

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I guess, because you're making a bet. You're essentially saying, and it is a gamble in a way, it's an educated gamble, but you are saying,

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I think that in this area, the value of these properties is going to exceed the interest that I'm paying and the loans that I've taken out.

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I'm gonna outgrow this. And so there's a unique set of skills that people have in finance that they're able to navigate that.

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Whereas someone who, let's say, is not into real estate or not into the stock market or not into any of those things, just a blue collar guy who, meat and potatoes, right?

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He's just an electrician or something. That person is at a disadvantage in this kind of a system because it's his money, essentially, that's in these banks, in these financial institutions, that's being traded around.

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And it's being used for loans on larger commodities and that kind of thing. So anyway, there's a certain class of people that I think this benefits, this kind of system.

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And Edmund Burke even talks about this a little bit, that he says, look, you got your finance capital.

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And he goes, if your country becomes finance capital, that's basically, that's an international kind of person that can live anywhere.

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And they're not really restricted by borders and allegiances to the land, to the soil.

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He goes, if you're gonna have a stable country though, you have to have a landed gentry. You have to have people that actually have tangible assets that they want to pass down over the course of generations.

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And so, and they're competing interests and they're not the same. Well, we've become less landed gentry,

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I would say, and more finance capital, because people can take advantage of these things and use them.

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So that's putting my two cents in there. I'll keep reading unless you have something, Matthew. No, you can keep on going ahead.

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I was just looking further into the article though, where he talks about inflation. And then part of what he's gonna continue on to is the exposition of not stealing and the

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Westminster larger catechism question 99, which kind of like, I think like, I skimmed the article before the podcast, but I'm starting to see that basically, like part of what he's gonna indict our system with is that it's going to be theft as like, theft is like what is happening essentially to perpetuate the system, given like how they're gonna be handling the money and giving out these loans.

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And then not only the loans, part of what you'll see in the exposition of the eighth commandment is the prohibition on usury, which is like part of what happens in loans is you see like a ton of usury going on.

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So I'm looking forward to seeing what he continues on with there, but I'm starting to like follow his argument pretty well.

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All right, so he says, and as Murray Rothbard states, who's a big Austrian kind of libertarian economist, commercial banks that is fractional reserve banks create money out of thin air.

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This increases the money supply and reduces the purchasing power of all existing dollars. When you take a loan from a commercial bank, you directly contribute to inflation.

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So I have a house, I've got a loan, I've contributed to inflation. Henry Haslett notes that the original meaning of the word inflation is increasing the quantity of money in bank notes in circulation.

31:27

Rising prices are not inflation itself, but the observable effects of monetary inflation. Historically, when

31:34

Caesar clipped coins or mixed them with base metals to create more coins from the same amount of gold, he inflated the money supply.

31:40

When people noticed their coins were lighter, they demanded more coins for purchases. As the money supply increases, the purchasing power of money decreases because more dollars chase the same amount of goods.

31:51

This leads to higher prices. I think that's pretty straightforward. I think people get that. That's how inflation is caused, by the way.

32:00

So, and when the government borrows, I mean, that's obviously the largest form of inflation. That's when inflation really gets going.

32:07

And the government, of course, we just had this big, beautiful bill. That was one of the arguments against it, was this is actually going to increase the debt.

32:17

This is actually going to increase inflation and these kinds of things. Now, we don't have to get into whether it does or not, but that was one of the arguments.

32:26

Thou shall not steal. The Eighth Commandment, thou shall not steal, presupposes the right to personal property.

32:31

The Westminster Larger Catechism provides a deeper exposition of this commandment, outlining both duties required and sins forbidden.

32:37

Regarding the sins forbidden, it states, the sins forbidden in the Eighth Commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required, are theft, robbery, man stealing, and receiving anything that is stolen, fraudulent dealing, false weights and measures, removing landmarks, injustice and unfaithfulness in contracts between man and man, or matters of trust, oppression, extortion, usury, bribery, vexatious lawsuits, unjust enclosures and depopulations, engrossing commodities to enhance the price, monopolies or cornering, unlawful callings, and other unjust or sinful ways of taking or withholding from our neighbor what belongs to him, or of enriching ourselves, covetousness, inordinate prizing and affecting worldly goods, distrustful and distracting cares and studies, in getting, keeping, and using them, envying at the prosperity of others, as likewise idleness, man, prodigality, wasteful gaming, i .e.

33:30

gambling, and all other ways whereby we do unduly prejudice our outward estate and defrauding ourselves of the due use and comfort of that estate which

33:38

God has given to us. Matthew. Yeah, one of my favorite things about the

33:45

Westminster Larger Catechism's expositions of the Ten Commandments is, we oftentimes say that, you know, the entirety of the moral law is held within the

33:54

Ten Commandments. And you may look at that and be like, yeah, but like, you know, there's lots of moral duties that we have, and there's only

34:01

Ten Commandments. Well, if you really wanna know everything that's in the Ten Commandments, look no further than the

34:07

Westminster Larger Catechism. Yeah, so it's very detailed on everything that's included in.

34:16

The implications behind the command to not steal, there's not just that one command, it's like all of the implications which are drawn out, which is given to us as like, what is your duty?

34:25

What is something you ought not do? And something that I thought of while reading through that list, especially with the author's claim that the system is sinful and that Christians ought not to participate in this system is something

34:39

I thought of that was interesting is something that, I'm PCA, but my fiance and her family, they attend, well, my fiance's family attends an

34:48

OPC church. She's with me at the PCA right now, but is something that the

34:54

OPC does, and I don't know if this is a case for every OPC presbytery or for every OPC minister, but they will oftentimes like pay like a pastor's mortgage, get them a house and pay the mortgage for them in their effort to support them in their ministry.

35:12

And I wonder how the author would feel about the presbytery itself funding this, because in order to do that, they obviously, they most likely need to get the loan and all that.

35:25

I don't think they're, they're paying the mortgage, so they're not gonna be buying the house just like upfront and things like that.

35:31

But it's interesting, because it's like, and to what extent, if we accept all the premises of what the author's laying out in the article, churches would be indicted by this, presbyteries would be indicted, but part of it is he does near the end of the article, he offers like the practical solution to this with the infinite banking concept, but I don't know,

35:53

I just, there's not really a lot of substance behind that, but it's just like, I thought there was something interesting behind it that even churches and supporting pastors, that in order to do so, they participate in the system, which

36:07

I find to be just very interesting. Well, what's the alternative?

36:13

I mean, you could rent, but if you rent, sometimes you're renting from somebody, paying the mortgage.

36:23

So you're indirectly funding it. And sometimes the rental, I mean, the logic that I used when

36:31

I bought my house was, hardly anyone has the money to buy a house straight up, first of all, right?

36:37

If you can buy a house outright, you're a very wealthy person. So I wasn't that, but the alternative was

36:44

I would have to rent, and if I rented, then I'm not actually putting my money into anything that I can build up equity in, right?

36:54

So I'm building up equity, if I actually am putting it into a house, if the money that I would normally pay for rent is actually going to something that will benefit my kids and grandkids,

37:03

I wanna be a generational thinker. So it just seemed a wiser deal from my perspective, where I was to do it that way.

37:16

It's not always perhaps wiser depending on like, are you moving frequently?

37:21

Like you're in your position, Matthew, it's probably better at this point to rent, but you're gonna come to a point in the next few years where you're gonna have to take, you're gonna have that crossroads and you're gonna be married, you might have kids and it's like, well, do we want this money going into building equity so that we can not just have good credit, which again, that's like your golden star for participating in this kind of a system, but also eventually we do wanna own a property.

37:50

So I mean, you can get into rent to own situations, I suppose, but it's kind of rare. So I'm just saying there's not a lot of good alternatives from the perspective of someone who's the little guy when property is so expensive.

38:04

Yeah, yeah, no, and I say that now because I'm a very broke seminary student right now, working multiple jobs and getting married in 10 weeks now.

38:14

So that's exciting. And she ain't got a big bank account either.

38:20

So, but we're making it work. We're, so we'll be renting, of course, from the apartment, but yeah, no, it's a lot of it's about just building the finances.

38:30

John, I almost, before I moved here, I almost bought a condo. I had enough money to do that back then, but -

38:35

Really? To rent, took it away. Yeah, but someone went straight to the owner and signed it away, but I could have had a good foot in the door towards building up some money, but I'm glad it didn't work out because one of the guys who was actually gonna be rooming with me and paying me for rent and all that, he ended up having to move away because he actually had a little rough financial situation.

38:58

So, God works all things out for good, but yeah, no, it's very interesting. I say all that to say, it's very interesting to approach this article from my perspective as just like a very you know, young broke seminary student, you know?

39:13

So, it's just - Yeah, you know, Earl Starbuck for $2 says, the fractional reserve banking system is a pyramid scheme.

39:20

And then he said, the monetary and banking system needs an overhaul. Yeah, and that's probably what you would have to do.

39:27

And I don't know what all the things that would have to happen from a macro standpoint to get the property values down, but obviously it's ridiculous that you got guys like yourself starting out and there's like no hope almost to buying a house, to making that down payment, that 20 % down even.

39:43

It's just, it's a travesty. It's not even something that I, it was bad enough when

39:51

I was starting out, but like I bought our house in I think 2016. So, we have seen, it was low interest rates and we've seen property values skyrocket since then.

40:02

And obviously there's multiple reasons for that. We have millions of people in this country who shouldn't be here.

40:07

So, that's probably part of it. Oh yeah. You got BlackRock. Yeah, please.

40:15

But you got these organizations, you know, Bill Gates, BlackRock very publicly buying up land all over the country, investing in land.

40:24

So, I mean, that kind of stuff, you know, makes it harder. But the other Paul says, likelihood of local, a question, likelihood of local

40:31

Christian communities emphasizing a bartering economy as fiat currency tanks. Never seen it.

40:38

I don't know, Paul. Get it started out there in Australia. You can be our Aussie guinea pig. I thought he was in New Zealand.

40:45

No, I've told that to him before and I don't think I've ever seen Paul so offended in my life. I felt bad.

40:51

Yeah, no, he's an Aussie. He's an Aussie. I don't even know what time it is there, but. Yeah, yeah.

40:57

It's probably like two in the morning or something, right? But who knows. The likelihood of, yeah, that's a, it's a good idea.

41:05

I don't know. I've heard these kinds of things floated all the time, but you have to have trust in any market.

41:11

There has to be trust. And for there to be trust, you have to have an enforcement mechanism when someone breaks a contract or devalues money, does something shady.

41:23

And can Christians have a high trust enough environment where they can govern themselves?

41:29

And I just haven't really seen it. Usually it's necessity that leads to these kinds of things, right?

41:35

Like when the pilgrims or the Jamestown settlers came, the Indians, that's what they called them, were using like wampum or they had their own currency, which was based on some kind of practical something in nature that was around them.

41:52

But they had, they did have to barter. They had to have a barter economy. And it was about survival though. Like if you, and there was someone,

42:00

Miles Standish was making sure that people weren't defrauding each other.

42:06

And that's part of the problem. When you opt out of the state, the state has the sword and now who's gonna carry the sword, right?

42:14

So never, ever compare me to those filthy Kiwis and it's 8 .50 a .m. at work.

42:20

Okay. All right. Well, there you go. Earl Starbuck says, I read somewhere that a man in the 1950s had to pay something like 30 % of his annual income to buy a house.

42:29

Adjusting for inflation, the average salary in 2020 would have to be $300 ,000. Man. Okay. Well, let's keep reading the article and see what we can ascertain.

42:44

Fractional reserve banking and fiat money commit many of these sins, including, not putting this on the author, obviously those things don't commit sins, right?

42:54

People have to be the ones committing the sins. So this is where I think, I don't know if we've quite resolved this difficulty, but yes, there are people who set this system up in the government and you could say that they were sinful when they set this up.

43:11

But including theft and receiving stolen goods as inflation erodes purchasing power, effectively stealing wealth from those who hold money, fraudulent dealing in false weights and measures, a fiat money lacks intrinsic value and its manipulation misrepresents true value, injustice and unfaithfulness in contracts as inflation undermines agreements based on stable purchasing power.

43:31

Usury as excessive interest rates, especially on long -term loans, burden borrowers disproportionately engrossing commodities to enhance prices as central bank policies and money creation distort markets, benefiting insiders and wasteful gaming as encouraging speculation in the stock market under the guise of investing promotes gambling -like behavior.

43:53

Fiat money and fractional reserve banking drive individuals into perpetual debt akin to man stealing by enslaving them to financial systems.

44:00

The absence of federal usury laws exacerbate this while states also fail to apply limits on document and loans, assuming informed consent.

44:08

However, a 5 .3 annual percentage rate over 30 years would result in paying $300 ,000 for $150 ,000 house, a usurious burden by volume.

44:20

And I mean, he makes a good point here. Like there is a difference between, so like if you lend money out of interest for the purpose of keeping pace with inflation in the system, that's like one type of interest, but then there's also the predatory lending, right?

44:37

Which is your credit cards. And now it's like, yeah, I mean, you look at, what are they now?

44:43

Like eight, 9%, maybe 10, 11 % in some cases for buying a house. I mean, that's insane.

44:50

And people are paying it though. So yeah, you're paying double, if not more than the price of your house over that period.

44:59

Now, you know, the money, obviously the value of the money is going down over time though. So when he says that you have to also take into account the fact that $300 ,000 in 30 years is not going to be the same as $300 ,000 today if inflation keeps up.

45:12

So you kind of have to have some interest to be able to, I mean, have a loan, but beyond inflation, the modern financial system commits other violations.

45:23

The welfare state redistributes wealth through force with the IRS holding 4 ,600 firearms, 5 million rounds of ammunition for enforcement.

45:30

Unjust taxation constitutes robbery and recipients receive stolen goods through welfare programs. Social security sold as a savings plan is a

45:38

Ponzi scheme with no actual trust fund. It is projected to be insolvent by 2035.

45:44

Benefits are funded by tax and current workers to be beneficiary ratio dropping from five, from one to one in 1960, or sorry, 5 .1

45:55

to one in 1962 and expected two to one by 2050. So that means that, just to put that in perspective, that means that you had a base of people paying for social security you don't have anymore.

46:10

And when that drops, it burdens the actual productive sector of your economy. And that's where you get

46:15

Italy or South Africa or these places where they have all these promises, guarantees, pensions, benefits that now cannot be sustained by those working because there's not enough people working.

46:28

And that's one of the things, by the way, that is promoting a legal migration and legal migration to these places is the argument is, well, who's gonna sustain all these benefits we've promised, right?

46:41

And this is where like the boomer con thing becomes a big deal because people are saying, well, the boomers in our economy, they've worked their whole lives and now they want what's coming to them.

46:50

They want their vacation. They want to be able to travel. They want the pension and everything.

46:56

And so who's gonna pay for it? Well, it wasn't their fault that, I mean, they didn't vote for social security.

47:04

They're into this system and now they're kids and grandkids, but there's not enough kids and grandkids.

47:10

So who's gonna pay for it? Well, foreigners. We'll have foreigners come in. They'll pay for it, right?

47:16

That's one of the big arguments. And from what I heard, Trump is, I just saw a snippet that I guess people are trying to convince him to do some kind of amnesty, which that's not weird to me, but I'm sure this is gonna be one of the arguments.

47:32

Yeah, no, that is one of the big arguments for mass migration is that sort of thing. And it's just, it's beyond sickening, this idea that you create a problem for everyone here and then in order to fix the problem, you have these mass migration of all these peoples just come in and in doing that, you may say you're gonna fix your problem, but you then create more problems and more issues and just all of these things.

48:01

And it's just, it's one of the most frustrating things to have all these injustices committed and then in order to patch an injustice, you just throw another injustice on it.

48:13

People have experienced that in daily life and then it also happens in national life as well.

48:18

But part of that comes from the fact that nobody, you can just slap this on and slap that on and it's fixed.

48:26

And the fundamentals behind things are forgotten in order to provide a temporary bandaid on something that needs stitches.

48:34

The really hard thing about all this is there's gonna have to be a point at which we say we gotta cut social security off, right?

48:44

Because it's unavoidable that social security will be cut off whether we want it to or not.

48:50

So the question is, do you want to cut it off when you have the choice and you can assess on a case -by -case basis who's actually dependent and who's not and do it more responsibly?

49:02

Or somehow when you make that assessment, give it to the states to manage or I don't know, somehow try to privatize this or get it on a local level or do you want to wait for the whole thing to crash down with a massive economic collapse that will hurt the most vulnerable among us?

49:20

That's really the question. And if you're a part of the boomer generation, then you have to, if you love your country and if you love your children, you have to be willing to make that sacrifice.

49:29

You have to be willing to vote for someone who's gonna make that sacrifice. Even though you've waited your whole life and you want,

49:36

I hate to say this, it pains me to say it, but hopefully the people listening to this podcast, if they are of that age group, if they're retired, hopefully whether the government's gonna do this or not, hopefully they are passing on whatever wealth they possibly can to their children.

49:54

So their children can have houses and all those to lessen the strain. And just cause that's your responsibility anyway.

50:02

But yeah, I know there's nothing wrong with traveling. There's nothing wrong with vacation, but if you wanted your whole, whatever, three years of your life, 20 years of your life at the end just to be vacation, endless vacation, now reevaluate that.

50:17

I don't see that as a moral thing, but all right. That's my anti -boomer con speech,

50:25

I guess. I was gonna say, I thought you were the boomer apologist, come on.

50:32

Yeah, some people seem to think that. I think I was pretty early on in describing boomer con -ery, boomer con -ism on the podcast, but.

50:39

Yeah. My parents like to chime in and they're boomers. And my grandma, she put me on the

50:46

TV. My fiance and I and my parents were visiting my grandma yesterday and she put the

50:53

True Script American Church podcast on the TV while I sent that to you in the chat. And she was born in 45.

50:58

I don't know if that's a boomer. 45 would I think be the silent generation. Maybe, yeah,

51:04

I think the year after is boomers. Yeah, she's close. She's close.

51:10

My grandma was born, I think, in 42. She's silent, silent generation, so yeah.

51:16

But yeah, it's, I mean, I love the boomers, right? Like I think there's a lot of American tradition that they've kind of, they've imbibed and they hold and there's a lot of good things

51:27

I can say. So I don't get on the boomer hate thing because every generation has its weaknesses. But I do think one of the weaknesses is this kind of like mentality of like, well, we were promised this kind of a lifestyle and we can live that.

51:41

And especially for the ones who didn't form relationships that were strong with their children, it's like, what do they have to live for?

51:47

So let's spend it and not a good idea. Yeah, John, so we're about like 51 minutes.

51:55

Should I rush? No, I was gonna say, do you wanna like, he makes a claim of like problems with participation but do we wanna just like, kind of get to the infinite banking concept where I sort of close things?

52:05

Okay, infinite banking, a financial, oh, let me show everyone, here we go. So it is a financial system consistent with Christian principles that rejects the sins inherent in fiat money, fractional reserve banking and the inflation they deliberately cause abolishing central banks is advocated in works like the end the

52:24

Fed by Ron Paul remains a worthy goal yet one beyond individual reach even if such a goal were attained.

52:29

Okay, so basically a lot of the pipe dreams like are they really gonna happen? What can we do under these circumstances?

52:34

What do you say? In this concept, it's about changing where we store our money and how we think about our money in order to take control of the banking function our lives.

52:45

So we establish our own private banking system accumulating our capital in an asset we own rather than commercial banks.

52:52

That asset is a guaranteed contract freely entered that has a unique feature, the right to borrow from the counterparty against its current value which is also guaranteed to increase by the counterparty.

53:04

The asset is in leverage to finance the needs of life. So this is not a product, but a process.

53:10

However, it is ideally implemented through properly structured whole life insurance with a mutually owned insurance company.

53:17

The policies are an asset based on truth, faithfulness and justice in contracts. The insured trust the insurer to manage funds responsibly and the insurer trust the insured to provide accurate information to assess risk.

53:31

Further, the policy holder is also an owner of the insurance company and both parties have a vested interest in the other's continued success.

53:40

This allows individuals to borrow against the cash value of their life insurance policy while retaining complete control over repayment terms.

53:48

This allows us to take advantage of leverage the most efficient way to use money and retain the opportunity of a purchase while simultaneously fostering frugality, diligence and moderation in handling worldly goods.

54:00

The IBC enables more informed decisions about true costs encouraging charity and wiser provisions for families.

54:06

For example, this is his example. A $1 ,000 charitable contribution when financed through IBC costs only $50 in interest over one year preserving future earnings.

54:17

This contrasts with conventional finance where giving $1 ,000 forfeits over 2 ,400 in potential interest over 30 years assuming just a 3 % rate.

54:30

Unlike commercial banks which lend non -existent money under rigid terms and charge interest for it IBC empowers individuals to finance their need directly retaining complete control over repayment terms with capital stored in such a vehicle.

54:42

The value accumulates as unbroken compounding interest because there are no withdrawals. So debt is not sinful.

54:51

He says in and of itself but the scripture does warn the borrower is slave to the lender.

54:58

So loans are perfectly collateralized in this arrangement. The lender simultaneously guarantees the value of the collateral.

55:03

The lender guarantees that the collateral will only go up in value. This means the loan cannot be defaulted on.

55:10

Repayment will occur either through the individual's plan policy lapse or death. All right, so let me see if there's anything else to add to this.

55:18

I don't think so. Yeah, there's a little bit but you basically like covered the gist of it.

55:26

One comment that I had to make that I just thought was interesting as I was kind of like looking through this is the emphasis that he had on the policies are an asset based on truth, faithfulness, and justice in contrast.

55:41

Obviously like you can make the claim that this also applies to the current system and things but part of the importance like behind this is the necessity of stewarding a virtuous society.

55:54

And I also think of the one quote that we always see like on Twitter or whatever about how the constitution works only for a moral and religious people.

56:07

This is why things like so many guys on our side advocate for things like Christian laws and things like that and being a

56:16

Christian nation because though outward cultural things and all that can never change the heart fully, people can be civically virtuous without necessarily being regenerous and a culture which encourages people to be virtuous and you don't rely on the fact that, oh, every single person in society is regenerate.

56:36

These things matter because it makes sure that in engaging in like monetary endeavors that you have like a degree of trust.

56:44

You can trust where your money's going. You can trust that you're not gonna be defrauded, that you're not gonna be enslaved basically.

56:50

And I really liked the point you made earlier about the system being like a form of man stealing because you're becoming enslaved to the system.

56:59

And it's just this idea of like virtue is just so important because so many people just have this mindset of in order to make it, you have to like, you gotta be a little dirty, you gotta do some people dirty.

57:12

And that's just, you know, it's just so, it's such like a vulgar way to live, you know, it's just, it's gross.

57:18

And I think part of the benefit of what he's advertising here is the importance of making sure that people live their lives in a way which is, you know, not only

57:29

God honoring, respecting to the Lord, but is also just, you know, honoring your fellow man, honoring your neighbor.

57:37

And, you know, I've been going through First John these past couple of weeks and one of the big things that I always see is, you know, his big, the big thing that John says, and we're kind of transferring from the civic sphere to the ecclesiastical now in this example, but one of John's like big points, and you see this even in his gospel in particular is loving one another, like brothers love each other, you know, part of abiding in the truth is through love and not just loving

58:04

God, but loving each other. And then you think of James' epistle about, and James too, like, what good is it?

58:10

Like, you know, if you have faith, but you don't have works. And one of the examples he gives for like a faith that doesn't have works is the idea of like the poor person coming through and the wealthy person be like, oh, be clothed, be this, be that, and then not doing it.

58:23

And so, but that whole rant is just to say that like part of like any financial system being successful is having virtuous citizenry.

58:32

And part of preventing that is, you know, not having a mass migration of people that don't have a shared cultural values and the, you know, propensity to assimilate into a sort of like honor system where we respect each other and we're not like defrauding one another.

58:51

Yeah. Christians should think through some of this. I'm actually not familiar with this concept that we're reading about, but, and I know it's complicated for some people listening, but as I understand it, this would be like, you know, remember when you were a kid, you had a piggy bank, right?

59:07

So you weren't going to the fractional reserve bank that's gonna take that money.

59:13

Like it stays in the piggy bank. Whatever you put in the piggy bank stays in the piggy bank. This is,

59:18

I think, similar in the sense that, so you're putting your money into an account.

59:27

So it's an insurance policy really, but it's this account that's guaranteed to only increase.

59:34

They're not going to, so there's a compounding interest. They will invest your money and your money will grow with time.

59:43

Meaning when you make a certain amount of money, that money then is part of the new total that will accumulate more interest and more interest and more interest.

59:51

But there's an agreement that that money stays there. It doesn't actually go anywhere.

59:57

And when you borrow from it, it's like you're borrowing from yourself. So there's more stability in this.

01:00:06

Now what they invest in, that's the curiosity I suppose I have, because I don't,

01:00:11

I mean, I'm sure the person who wrote this probably has a good answer, but is that stuff being invested in things that do increase inflation and that kind of thing?

01:00:20

I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm sure there's probably some guidelines there, but this is an alternative. And I'm all for thinking through alternatives to try to separate yourself from these things, especially if you're someone who has a hard time with debt, which

01:00:33

I've realized, I was not raised in a home like that. My home, we were very careful about debt.

01:00:39

We didn't like debt. My parents were very frugal. When I first got a bank account, I was like 14 or 15.

01:00:45

It was like under my parents, but I learned at that time to be very careful with money. And I just thought everyone had that.

01:00:53

And then it surprised me in my adult years to find people who just were banking on loan forgiveness for their student loans, or were taking out food stamps while they were going to college to pay for things.

01:01:05

I mean, I paid for everything. My whole college experience was on my dime or scholarships in certain cases, but I never once took out a loan, not once.

01:01:16

And I say that, I'm not trying to shame anyone who has taken out loans. There might be some smart loans to do depending on your situation, but it's like, there's people who just don't think through that at all.

01:01:27

Like just put it on the card, it'll be fine. And if you're that kind of person, you definitely need to do the

01:01:33

Dave Ramsey thing. Get rid of the credit cards, only have debit, maybe consider this especially like a safer kind of a place to park your money where you can't get at it as easily and that kind of thing.

01:01:49

So you have to make that assessment between you and the Lord, obviously, but we are commanded to give to the

01:01:56

Lord's work to help widows and orphans in their time of need to provide for our own families.

01:02:02

These things alone take money or take at least buying power, whether it's

01:02:08

Bitcoin or something else that you have to be able to do those things. Those are responsibilities

01:02:14

God's given you. And so, yeah, that's my cap on the whole thing. I think this is a really good article and I am curious if there's others who are out there who have other ideas or maybe ideas you think are better, write an article for TruthScript and maybe we'll talk about it because I think that we need to be thinking about these things more and more.

01:02:35

Yeah. All right. Any comments and then we'll end the show.

01:02:41

No, no, I think that was good. It definitely got me interested and though I'm not like the most savvy person with like the banking system and all that,

01:02:50

I never really had my libertarian phase. So I didn't get, my economics class in high school was an absolute joke.

01:02:56

It was just a study hall. The guy was only there because he was a basketball coach and he didn't teach garbage. But no,

01:03:02

I mean, even though neither of us like, well, you clearly knew a bit more than me, but I felt like it was just a lot of fun to go through and hopefully get some wheels turning and the two of us and a lot of the people that have been listening.

01:03:14

So yeah, no, it was good. Yeah, we're climbing. We're like 430 people listening right now.

01:03:21

Eddie says there were 200 or 300 Americans applying for the 100 jobs at the meatpacking plant the day after the ice raids, lots of other problems caused.

01:03:32

Oh, I see what she's saying. So yeah, like the idea that we need them because Americans aren't gonna take these low level jobs.

01:03:40

She's saying that's not true. There's Americans that are waiting for these jobs. If you've ever,

01:03:46

I mean, I don't know if you in Florida, you see where some of these people live, but illegal migrants tend to live in squalor or I shouldn't say they all do that, but there's a tendency to be more okay with it than your native citizens here because the conditions they're coming from are so poor that they will go into a two family home and stuff six families in it and take shifts in their sleeping.

01:04:15

And I mean, it out -competes everyone else because they're able to do that.

01:04:23

And I was actually just in Kingston, New York, which is a sanctuary city yesterday. I was noticing all the food trucks.

01:04:29

They don't have to pay rent. They can park on the side of the street. They can use their children as labor. It's gonna out -compete.

01:04:36

It's just, I mean, it makes sense, right? So anyway,

01:04:41

I think that's pretty much it for the comments. There's not a lot of comments today, but I appreciate everyone who did comment.

01:04:47

Well, God bless. Appreciate everyone who's streaming and we will be back next week. See you later.