How to Love the Ones Who Drive You Crazy | Jamie Dunlop

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We're back with another episode of the Room for Nuance podcast. I'm Sean and This is

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Jamie Dunlop. Jamie Dunlop. Can you start us off with prayer brother? I'd love to. Thank you.

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Well Father in heaven Thank you for The opportunity we have to sit down and talk about these things today

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We do ask that you would use this conversation to edify and to encourage to exhort where necessary Father we thank you for the friendship that Sean and I have.

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Thank you for the brotherhood we share in Christ we thank you for what you paid that we could be together and Father we ask that you would give us opportunity to enjoy the conversation together.

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We pray this in Jesus name. Amen. Amen All right, Jamie. Give us the Us being our listeners and viewers

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Just maybe a two -minute testimony, how did you come to know the Lord? Sure. My great -grandfather came to Christ Listening to a street preacher when he was 14 years old and he raised my grandfather to be a

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Christian and he raised my father in a Christian home and My parents are both solid Christians.

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I Remember first putting the pieces of the gospel together when I was four years old.

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Like I realized oh, I'm a sinner and Jesus died for my sin

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But I need to invite him into my heart and I got stuck there because I had no idea what it means to invite him

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Into my alright, but eventually I kind of piece things together When I was 14, I can look at my life and I can see things

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I was doing I can't explain except for God's Spirit being at work in me like sharing the gospel with people who

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I was terrified to share the gospel with Generally building friendships at all. I was extraordinarily introverted but realized

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God loves people. I should love them, too And so sometime between 4 and 14 The Lord saved me.

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Okay, and so now you are the so an associate pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington DC And I've been in that role for about 15 years at the church for most of the last 25

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Yeah, what did you what did you do before that? I was in business. Yeah. Can you elaborate? I worked for I found it fascinating.

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Okay. Yeah, so did a few years Working for a consulting firm mainly doing work with private equity.

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So buying and selling companies Yeah And then I took a year to be Mark Devers assistant at my church to figure out if I should be a pastor

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My decision was no, I have no business being a pastor so I went back into business went to another firm doing similar work for seven years and Eventually came around to being a pastor.

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And so I how did that happen? How did you go from definitely not to definitely? Yes, I I grew and matured

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So I I had been interested in being a pastor really since the summer of my when

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I was 21 I rode cross -country on my bicycle with a friend of mine. We were both

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Christians. We started Sleeping in church basements just because the weather was really bad.

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It was either really rainy or really hot So we'd knock on the door of a church every night made a different pastor every night.

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Yeah, they were super nice So we very often we just you know show up and sleep in some random strangers home and they'd feed us lots of food and stuff but as a result,

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I met all these pastors just kind of small -time middle of America and I was deeply disturbed by what

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I saw so Most of them when I would inquire about what they believed gave me a gospel of works not of grace

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I think Many of them were lazy. So I remember the guy who said look I love being a pastor

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I work for an hour a week. I do a half -hour sermon prep I show up halfway through the sermon to preach my sermon. I fish the rest of the time

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And I remember this long ride a hundred. So this is a longer answer your question. No, I love it brother 140 miles one day through Kansas Kansas just thinking about that pastor.

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I'd spent the previous evening with and thinking gosh maybe I should be a pastor just because I have a pulse and I can share the gospel and that makes me better than most of these people

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I'm meeting and just it broke my heart that I was in these churches of people who they

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They wanted Jesus and yet they were being given something which was anything but yeah, and I just saw

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I just wanted I want to help one of these churches, so I Finished the ride moved to Washington DC And immediately began thinking about Should I quit my job and just go to seminary and find a church in the middle of nowhere and be their pastor?

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Yeah, and my new pastor Mark Dever. I Had lunch with me. I told him this he said that's not your decision.

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I said, what do you mean? He said I'll let you know if you should go to seminary. You just need to be a faithful member of the church

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So he was controlling. Oh If you well, you know him No But very opinionated, yeah, that's right.

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Yes So I worked in business for a few years and then he said well, hey,

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I know you think I've been a pastor Why don't you come be my assistant for a year? So I did that for a year and Basically over the course of the year realized

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I'm good at stuff pastors don't need to do Business, I'm not good at stuff pastors easy to be good at namely

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I was still very introverted we did not have good people skills. Yeah, and so I was like, okay

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Maybe I should be a missionary, but then had some health issues Realized missions wasn't a good thing.

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And so for a good side of you. Yeah. Yeah, I just decided I'll just we'll stay on Capitol Hill by then I was married and I was serving as one of the non -staff elders of the church and was very content with that and then the church

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Was growing changing we had started and I mark started together for the gospel and started some other things and we're realizing

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We needed someone who could kind of be the chief operating officer for the church someone who had the heart of a pastor

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Brains of a business person. I was not the first person to come to mind We had someone else in mind.

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I wrote the job description that person didn't work out as I wrote the job description I realized gosh,

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I'd always told myself that I was a bad fit with being a pastor I think I should really good fit with this particular job.

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Yeah, I've been married for a while My wife had rubbed off those rough edges. I had been in business learning to be a manager

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I think that was building my people skills I've been an elder so I was changing and the church's needs were changing and I think it was a really good fit

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So yeah, 15 years ago. I Had lunch with Mark Dever and I said look

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The elders have been talking about being this new pastor position fill a new pastor position And I think

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I'm I'm interested and I kind of expected him to be like, oh, that's great and he said

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Well if you really have to What And he said look you are

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Serving as a non -staff elder you could afford to live in the neighborhood. Your job doesn't work crazy hours.

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And So you can be super fruitful and be here for a long time and I don't have many people like you So if you have to become a pastor, that's great

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I'm sure you do a great job, but only if you have to because I can hire staff I can't just hire non -staff elders like you

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So that made me pause. I thought about it prayed about it some more and I thought no,

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I think I think this is what I'm built to do. Yeah, and so I said Mark, I'm I Think I'm interested.

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Yeah, then he said oh good Well, brother the Lord has certainly not trying to embarrass you but the

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Lord has certainly blessed that decision I've been the recipient of it on at least two different occasions and it is a very rare thing

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I mean, it's a it's a it's a unique combination of gifts At the end of my year as Mark's assistant we sat down and he said

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You have the most bizarre set of gifts. I have no idea what to do with you. Yeah So yes, you say unique he says bizarre.

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Yeah, whatever. It's different. Yeah interesting. That's the interesting That's the adjective we use when we don't want to say something.

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I'm kind of right when the doctor says you have a very interesting case What Are you

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I mean, I know you guys don't use titles like executive pastor But that's what my title would be if I was at a church that uses titles

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I don't like that title because it's the congregations role to execute ministry Right.

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It's not my job I'm not the I'm there to fuel them to help them so they can execute ministry

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That's why I don't like the title if you're listening or watching you have that title No, no judgment on you.

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I just I feel like it works against what I'm trying to do as a church. Sure Yeah, well, we didn't bring you here to talk about executive pastor stuff.

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Although I'm glad we had that little segue You have a new book coming out in November.

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I do of this year. What's it called? Love the ones who drive you crazy. That's such a good title.

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Did you come up with that? I did love the ones that drive you crazy. I read it in preparation for this interview.

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It was fantastic It was an appropriate length, right good. It was

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Fun in certain places. It was weighty in other places. It was an easy read. It was a needed read

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It was full of good illustrations from real -life ministry difficulties Having said that why don't you tell us what the book is about and how the desire to write it came to came about as well

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No, yeah Well, you and I just met with a bunch of pastors and I told them the book was a biography of my friendship with you and We all laughed we did because we know it's funny and silly and partly true

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Well, yes. Yeah, I mean the the the book is about the fact that If you're a

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Christian and if you're in a church, which is centered on Christ alone Then you're gonna find you're there with people who are radically different for you in all kinds of ways and that's really hard.

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Yeah and Yet it is it is the fact that you can build a friendship based on Christ alone that glorifies

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Christ Yeah, and so sometimes the thing that makes us feel like things have gone terribly wrong

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Like how on earth have I found myself in church with that person? with you know their social media feed and that person and what they believe about whatever and that person who

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I just I Cannot understand them based on their background. It was actually this is what the church is

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So it's it's It's a book about how to do that. I wrote a book a while ago with Mark Dever called the compelling community where I was pointing out that We often try to make a church

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Attractive through our programs and our music and such but in the scriptures What we see is that a church should be attracted because of God's work in it.

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Yeah, it's God's supernatural work of regeneration and The good works that come out of that that show off who he is.

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Yeah, and I Made the case that there are really two aspects of a church community that show off the work of God The depth of commitment we have for each other.

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We're the new household of God and the breadth of commitment We have to each other that you know, the book of Ephesians It's the the people who are the new household of God are

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Jew and Gentile the natural enemies I've had so many people over the years who have said How do we do that like if I'm in a church with people who

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Are would -be enemies, you know, I'm a Jew. They're a Gentile How do I build friendship?

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Yeah, and so for for some years, I thought yeah be a good book to write someday I don't think I have the answer and then

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I Watched my church go through 2020 2021 which

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I think for most pastors was a difficult time. Yeah, because you had a whole bunch of people who were all getting along together and then suddenly you have

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Questions about do you join the protests in your city or not? Do you?

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Speak about You know the president -elect or not Do you?

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Wear masks or not all kinds of stuff that that at least my church hadn't dealt with in that we hadn't dealt with that level of disagreement before and I was making decisions particularly as the the executive pastor about Where our church is meeting we had to sue the government to be able to meet outdoors in DC during the pandemic and that was a a

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Fairly unified decision. I think 92 % of the church voted in favor of the lawsuit But it did not feel that way sure because we had lots of really good concerns on both sides of that question

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We had questions about should we comply with the law when should we not comply some people felt like we were

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Being too aggressive in some places or too timid other places on all kinds of different issues

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And keep in mind. There's a church on Capitol Hill people are very political There are all kinds of shades of gray in terms of different political camps.

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I Had people upset with me. I was upset with people. I was in lots of conversations with people where we disagreed

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Up to your eyeballs in conversation. Yes, and it was terrible and Sometimes it was terrible because I was thinking sinfully about it or they were thinking simply or both of us

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Sometimes it was terrible because we just had different opinions and yet I kept coming back from these conversations realizing

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Okay, I don't agree with them, but I see them acting like a Christian At the same time

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I was trying to memorize through the book of Romans and I was memorizing Romans 12 Romans 13

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Romans 14 Romans 15 and I kept kind of mapping in my head what

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I was seeing in my Congregation whether I was seeing in the book of Romans. It was oh, you know

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Paul's writing to a group of churches who also have a wild set of disagreements going on, right?

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we've got Jew and Gentile together in the same churches and They're disagreeing over all kinds of stuff.

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Let alone all the differences of backgrounds And upbringing that they're dealing with and there are some very practical tools

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He's given to us in these chapters on what it looks like to build real Affectionate friendships with people where we honestly don't share much in common other than Christ Yeah So that was that that was the genesis of the book the stuff

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I learned from my congregation Mapped on to the book of Romans those last few chapters just put into book form

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Well, I'm really glad that you got to go through that Every church was doing it.

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Yeah their own way I wasn't memorizing Romans 12 through 15 at the time that I was going through it, though Maybe it would have helped useful.

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Did you did you did you finish it? Did you memorize the entire book? I did and my wife had my kids dressed up as Roman soldiers and togas to celebrate.

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Oh, man That's so do you have a picture of that? No Okay, can you just from beginning to end recite the book of Romans for us?

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You know, I will say I've done this with a few different books It doesn't stick it doesn't but it's still useful.

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So useful. So I just say I just need to be realistic like, okay I'm gonna memorize the book of the Bible. I'm probably not gonna be able to recite it two years from now

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Yeah, but boy, I'm gonna get to know it really well right now. Yeah start start with Jude, you know

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Yeah, yes, do you know who Jim Oreck is never heard of him he was a professor at Boyce, uh -huh

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He's memorized Revelation John Matthew Romans the Psalms all of the

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Psalms Yeah, it's pretty impressive and he can probably still recite them can't he he says that like for example revelation

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He's like I have like 60 % of it. But if you give me a month, I'll be back at a hundred percent.

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Yeah Yeah Where does one find the time, you know, so During the pandemic during the pen.

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This was my tip that and learning Hebrew. That was my my two pandemic projects Together but not at the same time.

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Yes at the same time Wow Yes, obviously Lots of time on your hands.

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Yeah. Well not for me. The pandemic didn't really happen down here in Alabama At least we didn't notice it.

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Yeah, that's right but Let's go back to the me you thing because it is interesting that we're that we are friends we don't vacation together, but we're friends and It is interesting that we're having this conversation because I think for the first Like eight years of knowing you

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I was pretty sure you just didn't like me. Do you remember me talking to you about that? Yes, I do. Yeah, I came to you super embarrassed but thought there's the only way it's gonna get better is if I expose my

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Insecurities to you and I was just like, I don't know why Jamie I just feel like you don't like me and I Think that that was just owing to the fact that we are radically different people you went to Princeton I don't have a high school diploma, right?

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You were in business. My only business experience was selling crystal meth. Yeah I've made a lot more money than I did.

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All right. I have tattoos. You only have one on your lower back No, you don't have you don't have

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You don't have any tattoos or does the record be clear John does not know that no tramp stamp

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Even our dispositions. I am an off -the -charts extrovert and You way more introverted than people realize.

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Yeah, which and I think so. I appreciate your hue It's a very humble and vulnerable thing to come to someone and say do you have something against me?

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Yeah, and you need to be clear you had never done or said anything that it was my insecurity

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But yeah, anyways, go ahead. I said Jesus tells us to do that, right? Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. So you were just obeying scripture Yeah, but I think I think it's important for people to understand that this book isn't only born from Like you've been through this a lot like a lot a lot and as I was reading it

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I was thinking about our experience and I was thinking like oh, yeah, this is what happened with us even my my tenure at CHBC You know, so I Got saved a lot more tattoos now than when you were there.

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Uh, I don't know if that's true. Yeah, okay. Oh, yeah It's trendy now. Yeah. Well you were before it was fashionable.

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Yeah, you're darn right before it was cool So I got saved

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I tried to go to church here locally But when you're a drug dealer one day and then you go into a

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Southern Baptist Church the next day It's it's scary for people. It's like the Apostle Paul Yeah, that's right

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And then I joined the military I ended up going to Mars Hill which felt a little more comfortable

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The Lord moved me away from there after a year. I went to a church I won't name it, but I thought this was like I thought this was like the promised land like a church where we look alike

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And talk alike and dress alike and we like the same kind of music and doctrinally. We're all aligned. This is gonna be this is it right and You know six or seven months in I was like, this is actually

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Not that fulfilling something something is strangely Unsatisfying about this church experience and then in the

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Lord's Providence I got stationed in Washington DC and I went to Capitol Hill cuz I was like Oh, that's that guy who wrote that book about healthy churches.

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I'll go check out his healthy church and Two weeks in I was like, I don't know man like, you know ten hymns.

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I've never heard of any of these I can barely sing them The preaching was like an hour twenty right and I didn't have the depth and that's an exaggeration.

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No, no No, it's an hour twenty five. No, it's not But I didn't have the depth of me to appreciate the sermons and this is back when

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Mark still wore a suit and tie My first Sunday there. I was wearing a an a -frame.

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I still had gold teeth with vampire fans I remember those and and so I think it was like our third

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Sunday I was just like I was told amber on the way out. I was like I'm not We're not coming back. This is too hard Garrett Kell grabbed me and Convinced me to stick around and slowly, but surely

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I began to Understand what is now your book right? Like why is that?

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Why is he why is he wearing penny loafers that drives me crazy, right? But then I got to know this dude and I was like, oh he loves the

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Lord a lot You know and so our relationship is kind of like a microcosm for what I experienced in general at CHBC so all that to say this book is born of Yeah, real practical fruit.

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Well, one thing I talked about the book is that Christ is worth more than comfort Okay, and that's exactly what you were discovering.

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This church was crazy uncomfortable, but you saw Christ here Yeah, and so you stuck around.

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Yeah, and the in some senses Sean. I've not written the book for you I've written the book for the 95 % of the people in that church for whom church is very comfortable, right?

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Because they share the same background as everybody else and they say they share the same assumptions as everybody else yeah, and They in that sense don't need to act like a

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Christian to walk into church Whereas you very much had to act like a Christian What do you mean act like a

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Christian to believe that Christ is worth more than comfort? Yeah to say I want him even though this is terribly uncomfortable and it's worth it

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I'm writing the book for all those other people who need to act the same way Even though they're not challenged in the same way simply to show up at church.

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Yeah, so in the book I tell the story about A brother who's now in South Africa who was transferred to Australia.

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He had grown up in a Zionist Church and It was a works -oriented church

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No gospel at least where he was at but very focused on performance and presentation

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So he said that Zionist Church, he would start preparing his church uniform on Friday To be ready to show up on Sunday.

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Yeah moves to Australia because he's transferred by his his company and there's a neighborhood church It's a

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Presbyterian Church so he walks in and He said he almost walked out the moment he came in because he's the only black person there he was already a little fed up with the fascination with him as a black person in this particular part of Australia and that particular time of I think is the early 80s.

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Yeah, and The pastor's wearing flip -flops and An untucked shirt.

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Yeah, and he's like, this is nuts which I would agree with him the pastors preaching through the

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Ten Commandments and Being good Presbyterians. He's he's just giving us the larger catechism and how the

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Ten Commandments reveal Christ and the moral law of God and and he's like I I'd never heard this before particularly

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I'd never heard that Jesus Obeyed for me That my righteousness is not my own.

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It's it's a righteousness from Christ because Christ obeyed the law and So he he he talked to his wife he said we got to go back there again

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He said it was it was terribly uncomfortable But he was hearing

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Jesus there. And so he just kept coming. Yeah, and It reminds me of Jesus and I think it's

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John 10 my sheep hear my voice Yeah, it's like I just I hear the voice of my master and I want to be there.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and in my point in the book is that He's a wonderful example for us

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But all of us need to act that way All of us need to make the very costly gamble that Christ is worth more than comfort and that may not mean as an

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African Zionist walking into an Australian Presbyterian Church that may mean as me in the church where I'm very much like everybody else deciding, you know what?

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It's very uncomfortable. I'm gonna I'm gonna continue to love this particular person Even though the friendship makes me uncomfortable because I know we share

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Christ together Yeah, and I know that Christ is worth more than me being comfortable. Yeah, I'm really struck in Romans 12

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It's interesting if you look at how Paul uses the body of Christ imagery in 1st

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Corinthians Romans Ephesians He does a different kind of purpose in each place in Romans his point is that Though we are all

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Different the members do not have the same function Nonetheless, we are individually members one of another right and I've always been struck isn't

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Shouldn't he say we're individual members of Christ Because that's true, which is true, but that's not his point there, right?

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his point is we belong to one another and I think we we need to see that as a

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As a promise an invitation, right? Not not scolding like you better act like family

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Yeah, come on. Yeah, you you are family. Yeah, and if you persevere in loving this person

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You're gonna discover something there like you did with me. Yeah Over many years you persevered you had that humble vulnerable conversation and I'd say

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We have a sweet friendship That's maybe especially sweet because we don't share much in common other than Christ right and I would say the main thread running from the beginning of your book to the end is that when you have when you press into those kinds of relationships

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God is Maximally glorified right so your point isn't merely that God is glorified when we love people that are difficult to love, right?

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It's that God is maximally glorified. Can you elaborate on that? Yeah, I think about it in the book of Ephesians What is it about the

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Ephesian church that makes even the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms stare in wonder at the wisdom of?

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God, it's not just they love each other. So that's important. Jesus. I don't know you my disciples if you love one another

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It's that it's Jew and Gentile doing what Jesus said. It's it's these natural enemies who are living as a household of God That's what makes the spiritual world just astounded at who

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God is Yeah, I think that the verse that really struck me that kind of the whole book is built around is there in Romans 15 where Paul has been writing to Jew and Gentile and he's been writing about loving each other has been writing about how they should love each other despite the differences of conviction in Romans 14

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And then he gives us this prayer. He says may the God of endurance and Encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another in accord with Christ Jesus that together you may with one voice

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Glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you to the glory of God Differences in culture.

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Yes Differences of conviction. Yes, these Jew Gentile churches and yet when they are determined that being in accord with Christ Jesus is all they need to live in harmony with one another.

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It says God gets great glory. Yeah And it says so twice that Just as there is more glory in redemption

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Than in creation alone There is more glory to God in my church if we love each other despite our differences than if we were all the same to Can you break that down a little bit more glory and redemption than creation therefore

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Yeah, I mean God does everything For his glory, right? God created for his glory

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The heavens and the earth the heavens and the earth everything. Yeah, right That world fell into sin and from the very beginning

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God Began his plan of redemption to bring his people back to him If if we had only ever seen creation we would be able to glory

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God glory in God for his power Uh -huh his wisdom. Yeah His his might

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But we would not have known his mercy We would not have known his kindness in the same.

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We would not have known his patience There are ways in which the story of redemption reveals the the beauty of who

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God is in a way that we just can't tell From creation. Yeah, I think a very similar way. There's there's a way that The church that's full of differences and yet is united in Christ Shows off the power of the gospel in a way that a church where everything's really easy all the time and we're at peace without trying

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It just it can't do Is that a myth? Does a church like that even exist in one sense?

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It's a myth, you know It's it's a myth to suggest that in any church

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We only share Christ in common. Okay, every church has its own culture. Every church has his own majority

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And there's something wrong with that, right? So there's nothing wrong with me having Friendships of people in my church have similar background.

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In fact Those are really useful because they can probably point out sin faster

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They can encourage me in very meaningful ways So I think it's it's a myth to say the church is built around Jesus alone

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No, there's all kinds of similar similarity that works in there that some people may experience more than others Okay, but that what's not a myth is that churches can be made of People who share things that are similar but also people who don't share much at all

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Yeah And it's not a myth to say that churches can be composed of people who outside of Christ would never be friends

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Might even be enemies, but they are brought together in Christ because that's what Christ does So we're not saying that a church has to be composed of like 90 %

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I don't even think that's even possible to have the majority of the church be vastly dissimilar from one another

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No, and I think that myth is actually even dangerous because You know, I probably fit well with the majority of my church

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Yeah And if I began to think about the church the way you just described that myth Then I think

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I may discount the difficulty that somebody doesn't fit in is facing when they walk into my church Like SIBO did when he walked into that church in Australia.

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Yeah, if they're like, oh, we don't have a majority culture Oh, we don't have kind of any norms here.

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We're open to everybody Then I think that they're not positioned well to recognize the sacrifices he makes to walk in the door.

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Oh, yeah So if you don't have a majority culture or something like that Then it doesn't shine as bright if you pretend you don't have a majority

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I would say every church has a majority culture in some way shape or form some are stronger than others Very true.

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Yeah brother, I have like a Lot of notes from your book. It's one of those books

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Especially the introduction if you're like if you're really busy and you're like, I don't know if I can read this whole book First of all first chapter.

31:32

I mean the intro in chapter one. I was highlighting all of it, um But you said in the beginning that each chapter in the book examines

31:42

Like a different truth in relation to someone who's difficult to love can you walk us through some of those sure

31:50

I think sometimes we're looking at a friendship at church and Thinking there's no reason

31:56

I can't be at church with this person boy. Is it difficult?

32:02

Yeah, and it can be even frustrated like what's wrong with my heart that I keep judging them that I keep

32:08

Presuming their motives that I keep getting angry with them that I don't want to be what what's wrong with me

32:15

But you have to know that's a very mature way to look at that That's not how the vast majority of people are going to Say what's wrong with them?

32:23

What's wrong with them that I get so angry when I'm around them. You got it. Yeah, so so I You're like, okay.

32:31

What what's gonna change my outlook on this relationship? I think so often you just need a different way to look at it and if you try a few different perspectives eventually one's gonna click and So basically

32:44

I just walk you through eight different perspectives. You can use from Romans 12 14 and 15

32:50

To hopefully make something click in your mind you realize like you and I did with that conversation we had.

32:58

Oh I or the guy with the penny loafers. Yeah, I'm seeing things differently now. Yeah, so I'll just I'll walk through And each one begins with a question

33:07

So why did God put difficult people in my church? I mean, that's what we just talked about in Romans 15 6 and 7

33:15

It's that our insistence on unity displays the glory of God and so very often

33:20

I look at the difficult people my church or what I perceive as the difficult people and I just think this would be so much Easier if they weren't there.

33:26

Yeah, and I just remember nope God's doing something here. I can trust him

33:32

Yeah, that's so helpful brother. We had um, are you gonna let me get through all eight? Well, no, we're gonna take a piece meal.

33:38

Okay, he's one at a time good. We had a family in our church that They were really feeling that they're really feeling it and my encouragement

33:47

To this family was like hey God has you here for a reason and that's which is why I appreciate the way you framed it

33:53

Right. It's not how did we happen to be in the same church together? It's like no Why did

33:58

God put us together? Yeah. Yes you Think differently than the majority of our church about masks, right?

34:06

You're not here by accident There's something about you being here, but whatever. We're not masked people.

34:11

You are a masked person There's something about you being here That's going to sanctify you through this process and that's gonna sanctify us through this process

34:18

So praise God that we're in the same place. Yeah, right because brother we also saw there's a church That shall not be named where they kind of came they planted in the very early days of the pandemic and then they

34:31

They I mean they just exploded because they They were like we're the church that doesn't do masks and we're the church that says the vaccine is a conspiracy and we're the church

34:41

That says everyone has to be homeschooled and they built their entire church identity around those similarities

34:48

And it's just it's just robbing their people of an opportunity to learn how to love each other to glorify

34:54

God through that. Yeah Yeah, like if in Rome They had a

34:59

Jewish church over here and Gentile church over here. Yeah Yeah, a lot easier so much easier.

35:05

Yeah, and yet look what you lose You do a thought experiment in chapter one where you talk about this pastor who has this issue in the congregation

35:15

And some people come to him and he's like listen You're free to go be have this other church where you guys all agree on it

35:21

But is that gonna be the best thing right? Because that's what we're aiming for, right? We're not merely asking the question.

35:27

What are people free in Christ to do? We're asking what will be the most glorifying thing to do?

35:33

Yeah. Well and not a thought experiment. That's a real story. Oh, I thought Not hypothetical. Yeah.

35:38

Yeah where Yeah, there's a couple is just really struggling that the pastor was not willing to call out people in their church

35:46

Who they felt were in the wrong. Yeah, and he just said look, you know I'm just preaching the

35:51

Bible and I'm trying to hold this church together And that means I'm not going to speak as clearly as you would like me to and you are welcome to go to any number

36:00

Of churches in town. Yeah where the pastor's doing exactly what you want Yeah, and I just follow kind of what happens in their hearts as they contemplate really

36:10

Go into a an easier church for that reason where the pastor will sound the notes that they want to be sounded.

36:17

Yeah. Yeah That Was it felt like I was reading a scenario that I've been in a hundred times as a pastor

36:26

You're trying to maintain this difficult balance where you're like, hey, we're not a cult You know a covenant is a serious thing

36:33

But you are free to leave and I also I want you to know that I don't want you to leave right?

36:39

It's it's a tricky balance You're free to leave but I don't want you to leave because I think it'll be good for you to stay it'd be good for Us if you stayed, you know, it's really it's really hard And if you decide to leave you deal with my blessing.

36:49

Yeah, I love you. I will pray for you I want you to prosper and I I hope that you grow better in that church than you have in mind

36:54

Yeah, and with it with the family that I was telling you about Kudos to them. They stuck around for a long time

37:01

They tried really really hard and I think we all grew from it. But finally for them It was like death by a thousand cuts.

37:08

They were just like hey, we gave it four years. Sometimes that's the right answer Yeah, right. We're We're only so much and Sometimes you just need to be honest about gosh if I was a more mature

37:20

Christian Maybe I could you know put it out and do 2 ,000 cuts, but my wife is struggling.

37:26

My kids are struggling. I'm struggling. I'm resenting. I'm Tempting myself every day. I walk into church

37:32

And maybe I just need to do something else and sometimes that's the right answer the concern I have is that people are so quick to do that because they're not valuing what they leave behind And I I recognize sometimes the right answer is to leave your church.

37:47

Yeah, you've lost trust with the elders You're not growing anymore You've lost trust in the congregation

37:55

Let's just make sure that as you do that trade -off you're valuing both things biblically and my concern is that we value ease and comfort of Similarity and we don't value the glory of a church full of differences

38:09

Yeah, one of the things that I try to a thought experiment. I encourage People to do when they're thinking about leaving.

38:16

It's just Listen, praise God You're in the West in general in America in particular in the

38:22

Bible belt in super specific And there are a lot of churches you're free I mean in God's providence you're in a place where you can find a different church where you'll be happier as you worship there but imagine you were in Corinth or Galatia, right like how well or in Jerusalem when when the the controversy with the widows happens, right like What would you do there?

38:44

You're a Christian and there's not another church within a 10 days walk from you You're gonna have to find some way somehow by God's grace with the help of his

38:52

Holy Spirit To learn to love these people. Yeah, you know, so just it's just something

38:58

I don't intend for that to bind their conscience to make them stay I just want them to see that like their capacity to deal with difficulties in the body of Christ could be higher

39:07

You know and it has been higher for Christians. There was a story I ran across It was too late to include in the book, but I have a bummer.

39:14

I know Next next time right? Yeah I have a friend who's a pastor in Russia who himself has had a wild level of disagreement in his church

39:24

Over the war you can imagine. Yeah But he was telling me about a friend of his who passes a church in Crimea and There were two guys who became

39:34

Christians at the same time. One was a Russian soldier. Yeah, one was a Ukrainian soldier

39:39

Wow and The Ukrainian soldier had been one of the last holdouts

39:45

When Russia took the Crimean Airport, I guess now what eight years ago?

39:50

Yeah So nearly his entire unit had been killed he was left behind they became

39:57

Christians at the same time There's no other church around. Yeah, they got baptized together on the same day

40:03

They've formed this wonderful beautiful friendship because they've both found Christ together. I thought my goodness

40:10

If a Russian and Ukrainian soldier can find the oneness that they have in Christ surely we can do the same thing

40:17

Wow, I that is a bummer that you came across it after the but hey, it's on your episode there it is

40:24

Yeah, and if we go to second edition, it's going right. No now what you need is an is an

40:29

Israel Palestine illustration Well, it happens all the time. Yeah, it does. I mean Corrie ten boom her story of forgiveness with Concentration camp guard.

40:37

I mean church history is replete with this. Yes. Yeah. All right chapter two. Yeah How can

40:44

I love those people like how can how can I actually love

40:50

The people who drive me crazy in my church. Yeah, and I start just where Paul does with mercy, right?

40:57

Yes, I appeal to you therefore brothers by the mercies of God to present your bodies as living sacrifice

41:02

Jesus does the same thing in Luke 6 Where he calls us to show mercy

41:09

Because our Heavenly Father is merciful as we love our enemies that The fact that it's beyond my own strength to love that person is kind of the whole point right, right if The one kind of phrase

41:24

I used to the book is easy. Love rarely shows off gospel power Or to quote

41:29

Jesus even live if you love those who love you, what will you get? Yeah What what does that say about the power of Almighty God to change our hearts?

41:39

Such that we can love those who we would otherwise be enemies with. Yeah now

41:46

How do you? This is good. You're giving us tools. How do we love people that we find it to be difficult to love?

41:54

But how do we employ this right? Like, okay. God's been merciful to me so I can be merciful to this person

41:59

How do we think like that without becoming proud? Right, cuz I mean because yes, it's true.

42:06

I've received mercy from God, but at least like In relation to other human beings It's training me to think like I'm always the dispenser of mercy and these people are always the ones who need to receive mercy

42:17

Yeah. Well, I think it's that like Jesus said You know, he has been forgiven little loves little yeah, right

42:26

Luke 747 the jumbo jet of the New Testament Like that's that is gospel ethic right there.

42:32

Yeah that If You understand the mercy

42:37

God has shown to you in your forgiveness Then you will love God and if you love

42:44

God You will find yourself loving the people who are also made in his image who also are redeemed by him so so I Understand how humility or a pride can come because I'm I'm the one kind of showing mercy to my benighted inferiors.

43:02

Yeah I think that's that's not the love that comes from a love for God, right?

43:08

Right if I begin with the vertical relationship of recognizing I am the chief of sinners as Paul said and I've been shown mercy.

43:16

I've been forgiven that That can't help but overwhelm me in love for God then

43:23

I'm looking around where where can I channel that love? So that's a very good deep

43:29

Theological answer I was actually thinking something much simpler that you actually given the book. Well, tell me what I should be saying

43:36

Let me lead you down the path You you are also the hard person to love.

43:42

Oh you say that like so in several different ways in the book Yeah, like you're the idiot sometimes like, you know, they're right the people who drive me crazy.

43:50

I'm probably driving them crazy Oh, absolutely. I can't believe they're not wearing a mask

43:55

Don't they know and they're over there looking at you like I can't believe he's wearing a mask. Doesn't he know? Yeah.

44:00

Yeah Yeah, so just a good awareness of the fact that you're often confident, but seldom right yourself

44:09

Always confident sometimes right? That's right. Yeah. All right number three the third question What if I don't want

44:17

I should I should actually state so Chapter two, how can I love those people impossible love flows from impossible?

44:24

That's the truth. That's the perspective Okay, yeah that I need to understand God's mercy If I'm gonna have any hope of loving the people who drive me crazy.

44:32

Yeah. Yeah got that. Yeah their question What if I don't want to love them and the truth there is the disunity of church lies about Jesus?

44:40

Okay, and I just on very honestly there sometimes I look at people my church. I'm like, okay I know

44:45

I'm supposed to love everybody. Yeah I'm gonna love these other people over here. I'll kind of ignore that person and Sometimes that's just you know, you're in large of church.

44:57

That's kind of how it happens. Yeah But to the extent that that becomes a source of disunity in the body

45:05

That's where I think I need to have a more theological angle on things So I'm I'm struck in in first Corinthians when the

45:12

Corinthians are divided Right when Paul rebukes them his rebuke is very theological.

45:17

He says is Christ divided. Mm -hmm And he's basically saying hey people wait wake up for a little bit like you realize these petty disagreements

45:27

Are about more than just you they are lying about the unity of the God we serve

45:33

You see the same thing in a number of places in Romans 12 and then especially Romans 14

45:39

Where Paul basically says look if if you divide over this issue Then you're looking bad, but also

45:47

Christ is looking bad. Yeah, and that should change how you think about it kind of like when you're in marriage and you know, you're giving your wife the silent treatment and You know that eventually

46:01

You know work things out so you can kind of have the satisfaction of making her feel bad right now because you know the fight

46:07

Yeah You put a theological angle that yours. Okay, what is my behavior right now saying about Jesus Christ?

46:14

I am lying about him I'm saying that Jesus distances himself from his bride

46:20

I'm saying that Jesus acts selfishly with his bride. None of that is true, right?

46:25

And so even though I can kind of get away with it relationally Because of the theological dimension of what marriage signifies

46:34

I realize I don't want to get away with it I want to do what honors Christ right same thing in our church when

46:40

I realize there's a theological Label on every single relationship I have in my church and in my attitude toward other people

46:47

My church is saying something true or false about Jesus That changes how and why

46:53

I want to love them Wow Yeah, I don't have anything to add brother. Let's move on question number four.

46:59

Okay number four Wouldn't we be better off without them? Mmm, right like Okay, I read first Corinthians 12

47:09

I know that we're all different parts of the body and they're an elbow and I'm a knee and I need the elbow

47:15

But couldn't they be indispensable to someone else's church body instead of mine? Yeah, it would be so much easier and I think the answer is it would and Yet in God's Providence.

47:28

He's put you together in the same body Yeah, this is where that invitation in Romans 12 comes to be so real

47:37

So that we though many are one body in Christ and individually members of one another

47:43

I talked about that earlier We're not merely Members of Christ's body together.

47:50

We belong to each other The example I use in the book it's it's it's not

47:56

Like the family that's always gotten along from the very beginning it's like the blended family where yeah, you know in day one you're looking at this step sibling of yours and you're like You know, do

48:08

I really have to love you? And yet if things go well ten years later, we we love each other because we belong

48:16

Right. We haven't always belonged but we do now and we've discovered that there's there's a belonging we have That's the family of God as well.

48:22

We're a blended family. Yeah, right. We we didn't come together naturally We've been all adopted into this.

48:27

We've all been adopted. Our dad was like, I'm gonna adopt all these orphans all, you know several hundred million of them and And yet with a promise that we really do belong together, right?

48:40

And so if we Focus on the fact that it's God's decision that brought us together.

48:46

Yeah, and we do share in common one father And our brother

48:51

Jesus Christ that we will discover a time that we actually do belong together Obviously we you know, you work with first Corinthians 12, but just it bears repeating

49:02

First Corinthians 12 21 that I cannot say to the hand. I have no need of you. So Do we really need them in our church?

49:09

It literally says you cannot say you cannot say that right? Yeah, nor again the head to the feet. I have no need of you on the contrary

49:16

I love that he doesn't just stop there, right? He's like actually it's it's the exact opposite the parts of the body that seem to be weaker

49:23

And I love that language that seemed to be weaker because isn't that how we look at people that we think are wrong about things

49:28

In the church we go. Yeah, you're weaker and Paul goes. Well, maybe maybe they are but maybe they're not

49:33

Maybe they just seem that way to you But in fact, they are indispensable and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable

49:40

We bestow the greater honor and then he goes on to but yeah We should never look at anybody or any contingency of people in the church and say we don't need you

49:50

Yeah, now one thing is interesting is when you lay a Romans 12 on top of 1st Corinthians 12 Okay, because the answer in 1st

49:56

Corinthians 12 is we need all the different parts of the body, right? Which is true and one thing

50:01

I point out in the book is that I found that especially useful not in terms of any of your skills or You need a perspective, but I need your faith

50:08

There's ways in which if you and I disagree Over something that matters to me and Yet we're united in Christ Your faith is a special encouragement to me and by faith you mean your ability to look past our differences from your perspective

50:30

Well, when I talk about your faith, I mean that I see you acting in faith Even though you disagree with me over this particular right?

50:37

So the example I give in the book is a Couple in Kenya their son married someone from a different tribe and Yet she's a

50:49

Christian and The parents are overjoyed Even though this is a tribe that their tribe has had a lot of problems with over the years

50:56

And so as the people from her tribe look at that they say, okay You are exercising faith in ways

51:03

I don't need to precisely because where you are in this disagreement and that's a special encouragement to me

51:08

Their faith also is a protection for me because when you agree on everything in a church

51:14

I think you can get kind of sloppy. Okay, so if you disagree with my politics

51:21

Then you're probably gonna kind of point out things where my faith and my politics are somewhat at odds

51:26

Whereas if we agree on everything you'll never notice that so first Corinthians 12 We need each other and yet I think if we only have first Corinthians 12

51:36

We can be tempted to be somewhat utilitarian about these differences in the church Like well that person is necessary because I need them they do this they fill the slot they meet this need for me that's a very consumeristic way to view things and Can be it can be and and and and that is not the way you build a real friendship

51:57

Which is why I think Paul layering Romans 12 on top of first Corinthians 12 is so useful Because he said it's it's not merely that you need each other.

52:05

It's that you belong to one another You need each other because you belong to yes, exactly

52:12

And that's that idea of we belong together. I think is a beautiful foundation for friendship in a way that gets us away from some of the kind of Way that you mentioned earlier that we can almost look down on each other in the way that we treat each other in the church

52:28

Yeah, you talk you talk about commitment and comfort and starting with a particular framework

52:35

Saying that we have to begin with the commitment framework was it was it was that what it was or you were talking about like you married your wife and Like, you know,

52:43

I actually didn't know her but once we were committed then I then I got to know her Can you can you riff on that?

52:49

Yeah, that's actually from the epilogue in the book Okay, where I just talked about the fact that meaningful church membership makes all this work better that The New Testament Calls me to be committed to these people not because I become their best friend not because I'm really comfortable with them

53:08

I'm committed to them because Christ has committed himself to me and that's what his followers do Yeah, and what what embodies that ethic is church membership where I say

53:19

I am committing to love these people I don't even know all their names yet. Let alone am I comfortable with it?

53:24

But I'm going to love them because Christ has loved me The example kind of the analogy is marriage that you know the day

53:33

I married my wife 22 years ago. I Thought I knew her pretty well

53:38

But in retrospect, I hardly knew her at all I think everybody's experience like you kind of know the person and then you look back after your first anniversary like wow

53:47

I've learned a lot since then and yet the day we got married I made some massive commitments to love and to cherish and to death do us part to someone

53:55

I didn't know that well and inside the safe walls of that commitment There's been a relationship which is flowered like unlike anything

54:01

I've ever experienced before Yeah and there's all kinds of dissimilarities between church and Marriage like we don't do to death do us part when you join a church and yet it still is

54:11

I think somewhat unique among human relationships where the commitment comes first the comfort follows and so what

54:20

Paul calls us to do here is to say look, I know they're different from you and Yet you are one in Christ.

54:26

So commit yourself to love them and you'll find the comfort comes as it follows and It's really incredible if you can make it through Maybe it's a big big the big lump at the beginning or a series of lumps at the beginning

54:41

But if you can make it over that first initial lump It really is so fruitful and it's so I mean one of my one of my best friends most

54:51

Staunch encouragers in ministry is a guy That we just had a really hard time at first because we were so different But when we understood that we were committed to one another no matter what and we got through that Our relationship has it's just grown so sweet in contrast

55:08

There are often situations where you you meet a guy and you're like we're gonna be best friends forever Like do you want to go do karate in the garage?

55:15

You know, like we were just movie simpatico and then as time goes on and stresses are added to the relationship

55:20

You see I love how you do this. This is a best friend for Shonda Mars. Yeah karate in the garage.

55:26

Yeah, right That's right Nomads. No, that's right all on concrete but that all those kinds of relationships can often end up being the ones that are the most strain because What you were most excited about wasn't that deep it was superficial it's not it's not load -bearing

55:47

It can't yeah, I can't sustain karate is not as load -bearing for a friendship as Jesus Christ, right? Yeah. Yes Yeah, I can't tell you how many times

55:54

I've thought oh this guy is gonna be my my ride -or -die And then it ends up we end up separated somehow and the guy that you thought this guy's gonna drive me

56:02

He's gonna be a headache. He ends up being the best companion for ministry Yeah, I think very often the people with in your church with whom you share least in common have the potential to become your deepest

56:13

Friendship. Oh, no. Did you say that in the book? I did there. Yes. Yeah, I've been saying a lot longer than the book Okay, it's because the only thing you can build that friendship on is

56:21

Jesus Christ and A shared affection for Jesus is far more load -bearing for friendship than any other common, you know interest you guys might have

56:30

Are you saying that too strongly? I Don't think so because I said have the potential to be not guaranteed.

56:38

Yeah, I've gotten a little wiser How you've said that over the years? Yeah, but I think I've seen that in my own life

56:44

Yeah, other people probably have as well and yet that's not where we start right, right?

56:50

We start I'm like, whoa That's a weirdo over there. I don't understand them. I'm gonna stay away

56:55

Yeah, and I think Paul would say no, they're your brother. They're your sister. See what you can discover here

57:01

Yeah, it's gonna take more patience. It's gonna take more charity. It's gonna take more time

57:06

You're gonna bump your nose a little bit on the way. Uh -huh And yet that's a skill you can improve it over time building on Christ rather than comfort.

57:15

Yeah, and it's a wonderful skill to have and it's it's deep. It's rich. That's why Inviting people to do this isn't just about doing what's correct

57:24

It's about what's doing what's joyful? Okay that there is joy here You see that there as you get into even the very end just of this section where Paul closes with this prayer

57:34

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace In believing so that by the power of the

57:41

Holy Spirit you may abound in hope just wonderful words are hope joy peace power

57:47

That's what he's offering to us. Not just like the Marine Corps of Church like well

57:52

These are the hard people loves that you should love them. Anyway, yeah Right, what's at stake is our joy?

57:58

All right, so that was question five or question for that was Question four. All right question five.

58:04

How can I be friends with those people? Hmm, so this is assuming. Okay, we've got the theological

58:12

Building blocks in place. Okay, I see the need how do I know what to do? Yeah. Yes Do you just go up and be like, all right, tell me about Alabama football,

58:20

I guess That's right And there I need a dose of realism you can't be best friends with everybody in your church amen and yet Let's balance that with what

58:32

Paul says here in Romans 12 Love one another with brotherly affection That's like mic drop really so I Jew gentile slave free.

58:46

Yes. Yes affection Not just I'm going to white knuckle my way through this

58:51

I'm going to be nice to you and not say mean things to you even though I'm thinking in my mind I'm going to have affection for you

58:57

Jesus did not come to make us nice Merely he came to make us new. Yes. That's a great way to put it.

59:04

Yeah. Yeah Now I want to back off a little bit from the esv translation because you don't have to translate it that way um, but he's saying love one another with the kind of familiar

59:16

Feelings you would have with your family Yeah, whatever little quibble someone might have with that the the impulse is all throughout the new testament, right?

59:24

Yeah And so I I find where he goes next to be really helpful. He says rejoice in hope Be patient in tribulation be constant in prayer

59:32

And say okay rejoice in hope where have I heard that before and you go back to Romans 5 And you are thinking okay, that's right in Romans chapter 5

59:43

He said since we've been justified by faith we have peace with God the Lord Jesus Christ through him We have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and we rejoice

59:52

In hope of the glory of God not only that but we also rejoice in our suffering. So like okay joy, hope

01:00:00

Suffering exactly the same stuff. He's talking about here in Romans 12 I think what he's saying is you take that theological concept of Romans 5 where we are

01:00:10

Rejoicing in the hope of what God is doing in our salvation the glory he's getting of our salvation

01:00:15

He said okay take that concept Insert it into your friendships here with those gentile christians over there if he's talking to jews.

01:00:23

Yeah, so you can have hope That leads to joy through what

01:00:29

God is doing in their lives I think so often our culture

01:00:36

Tells us to define ourselves by what's in the past Okay, right define yourself based on your culture of birth or define yourself based on your past hurts

01:00:47

Or your victimhood or whatever it might be you're defined based on the past We don't do that as christians, right?

01:00:55

We define ourselves based on our future We define ourselves based on hope of what God is doing And so if I am struggling to love you sean

01:01:04

I can find joy In the hope of what God is doing in you that I will see someday in the future.

01:01:12

Yeah um That's right. Let's just not breeze past that it's such a you've you've been kind of like that I don't want people to like kind of miss what you just said.

01:01:20

Okay, there's something about this person who's driving you crazy. Yes Which at the moment is blinding you to the glory of what they will one day be yes, right like One day they're going to be so much wiser so much more godly so much more mature and and then one day

01:01:37

They're going to be perfectly glorified, right? But even in this life give it 15 years. They are being sanctified

01:01:43

They're being sanctified the same spirit in you is in them. Yeah, and so Look, don't just look at who they are now look through them

01:01:51

In time to who they will be and try to like cling to that Yes rejoice in hope

01:01:59

Be patient in tribulation sometimes you can't see any of that be patient be constant in prayer

01:02:07

Uh, I think I see a a a sense of that with my own kids right, so You know, i'll see one of my kids do something really kind and selfless for another one of my children

01:02:21

I just That's like the greatest experience for a parent. Yeah, that makes me so happy and excited

01:02:29

But it's not like i'm naive of like, oh finally we've beat the selfishest thing.

01:02:34

Yeah, and they're you know forever going to be selfless And yet i'm i'm taking joy in the hope that i'm beginning to see this flower unfold

01:02:43

Yeah, and if if I can have that joy that comes through hope with my kids

01:02:49

I think I can do it also with fellow church members Where I can see a little glimpse of what god is doing in that person

01:02:55

Yeah, and I can rejoice in that and that gives me a real affection for them in the friendship Um, so I i'm not entirely sure paul intended this to be kind of a recipe

01:03:05

For what he talks about but I do find interesting that the concepts are put so closely together romans 12

01:03:11

Well that I mean when you read the book of ephesians, which is all about unity in the church, uh And he kind of it culminates in chapter four.

01:03:18

He's like, all right, you you already unsent the key You guys knew it was coming. This is really all been leading up to you

01:03:23

Uh, he daisy chains his thoughts Kind of leading up to them throughout the letter

01:03:29

So I don't think it's unfair for you to point back to that and see those things being connected in paul's mind

01:03:35

But speaking of philippians 4 on this need for like genuine affection not like white knuckles

01:03:40

I guess we're in the same family. So we have to find some way to get along Uh in philippians 4 1 paul says this he says therefore my brothers whom

01:03:49

I love and long for My joy and my crown stand firm thus in the lord and then he says again my beloved right?

01:03:59

So when paul is talking about this church And not even this church the corinthians which are driving him crazier the collation

01:04:06

Yeah, who are about to abandon the gospel, right? Yeah It's it's not like i'm tolerating you because jesus says

01:04:12

I have to and I guess i'm gonna obey jesus It's like no, I genuinely love that that language of longing.

01:04:18

It's like the Our hearts are bound together though. We're separated right? So there should be something that says our hearts are together

01:04:27

Yeah, yeah Yeah, so think about those relationships at church that are difficult and then just start reading romans 12 starting verse 9

01:04:35

Let love be genuine You're not white knuckling it through that's not genuine. Yeah, right. That's that could be tokenism.

01:04:41

That's like well i'm i'm gonna Make you my friend because it makes me look better That's not genuine

01:04:49

A poor what is evil hold fast to what is good? Love one another with brotherly affection

01:04:56

Wow, is that a standard for us? Out do one another in showing honor that I I so am

01:05:04

Admiring you as a fellow believer in christ. I want to honor you Yeah, so different from the noblesse oblige like i'm kind of you know, lifting up my benighted inferiors

01:05:14

Do not be slothful and zeal so all of that do zealously Fervent in spirit as I serve the lord

01:05:22

Which is a reminder. This is Largely what serving the lord means if not willing to do this romans 12 9 to 11.

01:05:30

I'm not serving the lord and I do think that uh Verse 12 kind of powers the whole thing rejoice in hope be patient in tribulation be constant in prayer

01:05:39

And then he talks about what that sacrifice is going to look like is is we have that affection for one another

01:05:47

That's so good brother. Can we can we double tap something there? Uh, The the the brotherly love i'm a single child, but i've seen it in others

01:05:56

There's something about your brother or your sister You know, I saw it for the first time really with my wife

01:06:03

She was around her younger sister at the time. We were both 19 She was still pretty my wife was still pretty immature and her and her sister got into a spat

01:06:11

You know her like 16 year old sister and later on that night, I I talked to her about it and I was like, what was that, you know?

01:06:20

And she was like, what do you mean? I was like, well, I thought you loved your sister. She was like I do I was like, well, what was that?

01:06:25

And she was like, oh, you don't understand. This is this is what family does right now What what they did is not good or christian or mature

01:06:34

But there there's something there about like no matter how much your sibling drives you crazy

01:06:39

You're my brother. Yeah, I love you. We're in this together I'm gonna be here for you and the rules of engagement look different from family to family

01:06:46

Right, which can get us into trouble at church because i'm sort of treating you like my brother Yeah, and you're like, whoa, that was like nuclear armageddon

01:06:56

Even with your like sense of humor, you know, yes And that's where we realize oh the family of god is a little more complicated.

01:07:02

Yeah It's more like 3d chest. Um While i'm here in philippians 4, let me ask you, uh, let's not forget where we were walking through the chapters, but um paul says

01:07:15

Uh, I I entreat you audience and I entreat syntheke To agree in the lord.

01:07:20

Yes. I ask you true companion help these women Who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with clement and the rest of my fellow workers whose names are in the book of life

01:07:30

So first of all, I love that he points to their track record of like gospel labor He's like hey both of you guys love jesus.

01:07:36

Yeah, we've been partnering together, right? So you gotta love each other, but then he enlists the help of the true companion. Who is that doesn't matter

01:07:43

Um, do you ever find it? Well, I guess the answer to this has to be yes Uh appropriate to enlist

01:07:50

Like the help of someone to help brothers and sisters in the church love each other You know one of the examples

01:07:56

I I use in the chapter Again, a real example is um

01:08:05

A person in the church Was just really struggling with loving someone

01:08:12

Who disagree who they disagree with have some very significant matters. Yeah, uh kind of social blogosphere type stuff and so She called another guy in the church who she knew agreed with her

01:08:25

On some of those matters and he was good friends with this other guy Okay, and basically said this man is driving me up the wall

01:08:33

And I I I know I shouldn't be feeling the way I do, but I can't stand him. Yeah, can you help me?

01:08:40

and I so admire that sister for having the humility to disclose the ugliness of heart to somebody and for taking such a

01:08:48

A concrete step toward trying to kind of get underneath this.

01:08:54

Yeah So yes, you know very often the solution is not going to be certainly not navel gazing

01:09:00

Maybe not even merely sticking your head in romans 12 It's going to be getting someone who you knows you and maybe who knows another person and saying look

01:09:07

Can you help me figure out the way i'm messing this up? Yeah, and and i'll tell you whenever I have been in an experience where there's been a even where i've needed it

01:09:17

A true companion a third party mediator The the best of them They don't just help you learn how to get along in the church.

01:09:24

They actually say say things they point out things That help you grow affection for that person, right that that help you understand that person in such a way that goes, you know

01:09:35

Ultimately, I still disagree with your position or whatever the case may be But now that I see it from your perspective,

01:09:41

I actually really respect you, you know It's so important. It's so important to have that when you're trying to move forward.

01:09:48

Yeah, because Uh, we in the church. We don't really need ceasefire agreements I mean sometimes that's like the bare minimum and that's the best we can hope for but that's never what we're aiming for, right?

01:09:59

Well, and sadly, I think sometimes we put up with it. Like well, this is the best way you have this kind of icy fragile, um

01:10:08

Delicate piece. Yeah That is it's like what tim keller talks about in his marriage book a truce marriage

01:10:15

Like we've just kind of gotten this thing and it works and we'll hold the peace and we'll sort of deal with it

01:10:21

It doesn't honor god, right? Right. We want the kind of rich vibrant deep peace

01:10:27

Yeah that honors god, but it will involve kind of breaking through that ice and saying okay, we're going to deal with the hard issues

01:10:33

Yeah All right question number six. Okay, how can I really forgive those people?

01:10:40

It's interesting this chapter was not in the book originally But I was walking through the table of condoms with a sister in my church

01:10:47

We were just talking about the book and we finished she said What about forgiveness? I said, ah, it's important, but it's not in romans 12 13 and 14 and 15.

01:10:57

So I didn't put it in there. Yeah and uh I kept thinking about it I thought gosh, it would be really good to have a chapter on forgiveness in here

01:11:06

And I I just kept looking at the end of romans 12 where paul says that that statement

01:11:15

Vengeance is mine. I will repay says the lord which is how uh

01:11:21

We should not avenge ourselves, but leave it to the wrath of god Like gosh, that sounds an awful lot

01:11:29

I said gosh that sounds an awful lot like jesus In luke 6 as he tells us to love our enemies

01:11:38

It is like paul says so that if your enemy is hungry feed him if he's thirsty give him something to drink um And of course jesus commands to love our enemies

01:11:48

As a foundation then for as he goes on the next verse forgiving them I thought you know what

01:11:54

I Paul, I don't think he's talking about forgiveness, but I think he is giving us here the root of forgiveness.

01:12:00

Okay, which is that uh Forgiveness is an act of injustice not the way we normally think about injustice, but When I forgive you

01:12:12

I decide to not give you what you deserve. Yeah, and instead take it on myself

01:12:21

And I begin to think about all the ways in which forgiveness seems to fail us where we honestly think we've forgiven but the relationship just is

01:12:31

It doesn't heal. It doesn't reconcile I thought you know very often the sometimes

01:12:39

Forgiveness can't achieve reconciliation. It's a fallen world. We need to be realistic about that Okay, but sometimes the reason why forgiveness doesn't result in a reconciled relationship isn't because it's impossible because I didn't take on myself the full injustice of forgiveness

01:12:55

Right. I Child chose not to give you the silent treatment, which I think you deserved

01:13:01

So in that sense, it felt unfair to me. And so I kind of convinced myself that you were forgiven

01:13:07

But I didn't then take it on myself to pursue you in friendship to pursue you in affection

01:13:14

Yeah, which is what forgiveness would have evolved. Yeah But you're not saying that every person who forgives has to make friends with a person that they've no

01:13:23

I think it's possible But I think we I think we we we give up too easily, especially in the church, especially in the church, right?

01:13:30

Keep in mind the church is one of the few places in life where Relationships are close enough that you can really hurt each other

01:13:36

Yeah, but the community is large enough. You can just kind of get along and avoid them and you won't notice anything's wrong Unless you're in a church of like 15 people, you know, you get a church of 70 or more

01:13:46

And you can have that dynamic and I think you can kind of Just wall that friendship off keep going and you'll be it looks like things are fine.

01:13:55

Yeah And so Paul's statement here vengeance is mine.

01:14:02

I will repay The idea that god will secure justice. I think is absolutely necessary if we're to embrace full forgiveness

01:14:10

Yeah, where I don't merely Stop doing bad things to you where I don't merely refrain from punishing you, but I actually say

01:14:19

I'm going to take on myself The cost of your sin against me, which is of course exactly how jesus describes forgiveness in matthew 18

01:14:28

Right. You've got the the guy who owes the money lender a whole bunch of money

01:14:33

And the money lender takes the debt on himself. That's jesus. It's an economic Uh image of forgiveness, right?

01:14:41

And so when you sin against me and I forgive you it's not merely i'm saying i'm not going to punish you

01:14:47

It's saying i'm going to take that cost on myself I'm going to take it cheerfully I'm going to do so readily because I love you and the only way

01:14:54

I can accept that amount of injustice Is if I really put all my chips on the justice of god

01:15:01

And say god is the one who excites justice. Therefore I can do what is The opposite of justice and that doesn't mean we're not trying to pursue confession and repentance

01:15:10

It just means i'm not trying to extract everything from you that I feel like is owed in light of the sin

01:15:17

And beyond that I turn the other cheek. Yeah, and I yeah, right I give you the opposite of what your sin deserves

01:15:24

So when you see a brother in the church who has been sinned against by another brother, not only does he forgive him

01:15:30

But he also actively continues to pursue him in friendship. I think very often that is forgiveness.

01:15:36

Yeah, that's right, right if If your sin against me deserves Me to ignore you and give it a silent treatment.

01:15:43

Yeah I think okay What's the opposite of what your sin deserves the opposite is for me to pursue you in friendship and give you opportunities to rebuild that Affection.

01:15:51

Yeah You know going back to what you were saying earlier about What it's possible To like wall off that relationship a lot of your book kind of It keeps coming back to this theme of not not just what could we do?

01:16:04

But what should we be aiming to do? That's maximally Glorifying for the lord You know, you have four ligaments in your knee, you know the front the back and then the two on the side

01:16:15

Uh, it's not uncommon for people to tear a ligament like an acl And to be able to cope to be able to adapt and continue to do whatever their respective sport is without that ligament

01:16:27

But you know what happens over time? The other ligaments get stressed because of it the knee becomes arthritic

01:16:34

And creaky and be and the reason why do they do that because you know, you get an acl surgery you're out for nine months

01:16:42

But if you get it done, well, you're going to have knees that are healthy well into your how you know, whatever 70 80 90, you know

01:16:50

But if you say I can't I don't want to deal with this initial discomfort of of the surgery

01:16:56

You may cope you may get by but you're going to end up spending the last decades of your life in extreme discomfort all that to say

01:17:04

It may be immediately More uncomfortable to try to work through this together

01:17:09

But the payoff is going to be huge. Whereas if you kind of wall it off and say what's easier for me now

01:17:15

Not to deal with it well, that may be true, but your heart's going to get arthritic and the church is going to get arthritic and And there are going to be some long -term consequences here that in the end are going to be worse

01:17:26

And you're going to wish you would have dealt with it. Yeah. Yeah, and so I think very often we underestimate how radical forgiveness really is

01:17:34

And paul gives us the theological foundation for radical forgiveness that subverts justice

01:17:40

That gives you the opposite of what justice demands. And so the truth here is divine justice and power is full forgiveness

01:17:47

And you know people have read lots of stuff on forgiveness. Maybe you read tim kelly's recent book on forgiveness I thought it was wonderful.

01:17:53

Very good. So good audiobook um This is just a meditation on one aspect of forgiveness to really think through the relationship between justice and forgiveness and how that can allow

01:18:02

Me to recognize where my attempts at forgiveness are not as radical as what jesus really calls me to yeah

01:18:08

That's good, brother. All right question seven. Okay, how can I stop judging and despising those people now?

01:18:14

This is where How can I stop judging and despising now? We're really getting into the meat of romans 14.

01:18:19

You got it. Exactly Yeah, and what we see is we go from romans 12 1 into uh, skip romans 13

01:18:27

Well, you know for the sake of this book Well, yeah, what's going on there is end of romans 12.

01:18:33

He says that we should uh feed your enemy Give your enemy something to drink and I think the the obvious question that is well, does that mean there's no room for earthly justice?

01:18:47

Are we really to leave everything to god? Right? And so we get this little sidebar On human government to say it is instituted by god.

01:18:55

It's the state's job to pursue justice on earth Yes, and then at the end of romans 13, he has this beautiful transition uh, you know, what if I told you

01:19:04

I want you to transition from uh political philosophy to love in two paragraphs Well, that's what paul does right here.

01:19:11

Wow. Um, so we get back to love there in verse in chapter 14 But now we're talking about I think a new level of difficulty, which is i'm not just loving people

01:19:19

Who have differences of backgrounds or differences in preference? I'm not loving people have differences of conviction

01:19:26

Yeah, and I think for the church today that is so important. Why? Why?

01:19:32

You're a pastor I I don't know that there's much difference in our convictions. I mean goodness gracious Like I just think about what's going on the news right now

01:19:40

Right. There are gonna be some people Who feel like the most important that the church can do today is to support israel

01:19:47

And some people feel like the most important thing the church can do today is to plea with israel not to invade gaza

01:19:52

Yeah, right and you can have christians in the same church who are disagreeing on that issue. Yeah Uh, you know, we've got an election going on right now

01:19:59

Maybe the result's already out to elect a new speaker of the house And some people at least in my church are very passionate about this person.

01:20:06

Some people are like no no No, let's have this person instead. Yeah, you can disagree about that Um, I think as our society becomes more secular

01:20:14

It seems that we are disagreeing on things at church in ways that are more convictional. What do you mean?

01:20:20

So like what was the big disagreement in church of the 1990s? It was the worship wars Yeah, I think many pastors long for those days when that's the only thing we disagree

01:20:30

Contemporary music versus hymns, right? Because today you've got people disagreeing on like can can you recommend a book by that author?

01:20:38

Uh, can you really put your pronouns in your email signature? Are you you know? Are you just giving in to the the transgender agenda?

01:20:46

Uh, you know, I saw you pass a card to your gay office mate after his uh, so -called wedding, you know, are you endorsing just In a secular culture

01:20:58

I think there are more ways that christians can disagree about what it means to be faithful and follow christ wouldn't you say that uh

01:21:07

A leading question obviously, uh objection leading the witness Yes, wouldn't you say though that as the united states is growing increasingly secular.

01:21:15

We're actually More in tune with the environment that the new testament was written in Uh in some ways in some ways.

01:21:23

Yeah. Yeah Yeah, because I mean the new testament is written to christians who are a minority in the culture. Yeah, they don't have cultural power

01:21:30

Yeah, and I think uh, we can take a hint from paul here in romans 14 When you don't have cultural power you are potentially going to have more convictional disagreements

01:21:40

Get used to it. Yeah And paul's base of message in romans 14 is uh

01:21:48

What's really right? And what's really wrong is often not the particular conventional disagreement, but whether you can love

01:21:56

Across that disagreement. So the most important thing isn't who's right here, but how you handle your view of who's right?

01:22:03

Yes, and of course that's not true for everything and there's a good amount of discernment That you've got to think through biblically to determine where that's true

01:22:11

But it's often true. Let's just take one example. He uses holy days, right? So we might uh, let's talk about christmas right christmas trees.

01:22:19

Are they pagan or not? Right, should we give gifts? Should we should we do a christmas service any number of the christians can be very opinionated about holy days, right?

01:22:28

Like easter bunny stuff, right? the the question isn't Is a christmas tree pagan or not?

01:22:34

There there may be a right or wrong question to discuss. Yeah. Yes But how we handle our convictions how we handle our disagreement over that is more important Yeah, so romans 14 20 do not for the sake of food destroy the work of god

01:22:49

Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats

01:22:54

So the conviction disagreement here is whether or not christians can eat meat I think what's going on here is you've got jewish christians who are still holding to old testament dietary laws

01:23:03

And the easiest way to keep kosher is to just not eat meat at all I don't think this is food sacrifice to idols.

01:23:10

It seems to be the case elsewhere. Okay. Gotcha Um, that's just my opinion. Yeah, I could explain why but we don't need to get into that and so paul's saying look gentiles

01:23:20

You're right when jesus said That all things were clean. He meant it. So you're you're right in this particular disagreement and yet What's really wrong is not their position of the disagreement.

01:23:34

It's if you make them stumble by what you eat So if you decide that your christian freedom

01:23:41

Is worth more than their conscience That's what's really wrong Uh, so I think what paul does here he he has this beautiful reprioritization was right and wrong

01:23:51

That gives us a different perspective. It's a fine thing to debate whether you should have christmas trees or not Sure, but what really matters as you said is are you going to love them and protect their conscience?

01:24:03

Yeah through that disagreement that you have and that doesn't even mean Uh, you would agree that we don't try to inform and calibrate people's consciences, right?

01:24:12

It's just it's just the way that you go about it. Yeah, and with the particular weight Being borne by those who are strong Yes, right and by strong paul means

01:24:23

Uh the one Who has the more permissive conscience? That's right Yeah, because in this case those people happen to be right where you go

01:24:30

So if you go to first corinthians paul says we know that there there are no other gods, right? So you see this whole meat sacrifice to idols thing and you're like, well

01:24:38

I know that there's actually no such thing as another god and whatever spooky voodoo thing They did over the meat doesn't matter. It's a stake, right?

01:24:44

But if that's you and your conscience is more permissive You have to handle that in such a way that takes into account your weaker brother

01:24:51

Yeah, so at church you're often encountering people who have more permissive consciences than yours and uh

01:24:57

When that happens You are going to judge them Or their consciences are more restrictive than yours

01:25:05

Uh, so you're going to judge them in a different way. You're going to despise them. I think it's the word paul uses Uh, you know, they don't feel like they can have a christmas tree and i'm like, oh, that's so crazy idiots and then

01:25:15

I resent them because now I You know can't have a christmas tree myself because their kids are at my house all the time

01:25:21

And I don't want to cause me to stumble and i'm big too mad right and so What do you how do you stop that?

01:25:28

I think that's a real challenge. Like I know i'm judging that person But I can't just turn it off I know it's wrong.

01:25:37

What do I do about it? Yeah, and that's where I think paul gives us a super helpful approach here Uh, he says verse 5 one person esteems one day is better than another

01:25:46

While in other esteems all days alike each one should be fully convinced in his own mind The one who observes the day observes in honor of the lord

01:25:53

The one who eats eats in honor of the lord since he gives thanks to god While the one who abstains abstains in honor of the lord and gives thanks to god for none of us lives to himself

01:26:01

And none of us dies to himself paul's saying look You guys disagree over whether you can celebrate sabbath days anymore or not

01:26:08

I just want to recognize you to recognize the person who observes the day is observing it in honor of the lord

01:26:14

And let's just note that that person is Exercising faith to do something even if you disagree with what you're doing and that faith is important to recognize

01:26:23

You see this all the time outside of like theological questions It's important if someone is at least wrong in the right direction, right if you trust their motives, right?

01:26:33

If you trust that they're trying to do the right thing, even though they may have missed the mark Versus someone you're like,

01:26:39

I don't trust them. I don't like them. I think this whole thing smells funny from beginning to end So people often say you should give others the benefit of the doubt

01:26:47

I think paul is doing something very helpful and going a step further He's saying don't just give them the benefit of the doubt ask them

01:26:55

How their faith motivates an opinion that is contrary to mine. Wow. Yeah, and if I ask that question uh

01:27:04

Sometimes I will find out I was right Yeah, and their motives are impure. Yeah, at least then i'm not naive about something which isn't true

01:27:12

But sometimes i'll discover. Oh Okay, I hadn't thought about how your

01:27:20

Christian faith could motivate you to vote in that direction or to put your kids in public or to put your kids in that school

01:27:25

I just kind of assumed you put your kids above school because you're worldly Well, you just weren't thinking about it at all

01:27:30

Yes, the fact is you actually have thought about this a lot. You've arrived at a different conclusion Yeah, I may still disagree with you and want my kids to be homeschooled.

01:27:38

But now at least I can see Okay, there's there's something That is christ honoring in what you're doing

01:27:45

And I do think that can be the antidote to a lot of those judging feelings in my heart. Yeah uh because What felt to me like an irreconcilable difference of right and wrong?

01:27:56

Now becomes two different ways to exercise the same good thing, which is trust in christ That can obviously be taken to an extreme where we end up with kind of moral relativism and just because your heart's in the right

01:28:07

Place doesn't matter what you do Obviously we need to be wise in how we approach this but I do think paul does that in first corinthians 12

01:28:15

He's like listen at the end of the day. You can't be in the temple with a prostitute, right? Like you can't do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah But if I if I don't merely assume the best

01:28:25

But I actually walk through that door to ask you why you're doing what you're doing

01:28:30

I think I'll often find that's the path to begin and to release some of those judging And despising motives in my heart.

01:28:37

Yeah That's really good brother, we could probably keep talking more about that, but let's go on to okay final question question number eight.

01:28:43

Yeah How can I love those people when they're wrong And this again is romans 14.

01:28:51

It's like okay i'm right They're wrong Clearly the right answer is for them to you know, fess up and repent

01:29:01

And again paul's just he doesn't do that. He says you got to love them anyway And uh, what

01:29:07

I think is notable by romans 14 is how often he talks about the judgment of god I think six different times in this chapter.

01:29:13

He references the judgment of god And if i'm going to love people

01:29:19

Who have opinions and convictions that are contrary to mine I have got to keep the judgment of god in mind

01:29:26

I need specifically that god is going to judge them god will judge them. I don't need to it's not my job, right?

01:29:32

But also the god will judge me Yeah, and he will hold me particularly to account for how well

01:29:38

I love them And in fact on judgment day Whether or not I love them Well will probably matter more than whether I ended up on the right side in this debate.

01:29:47

Oh and I mean You see that so much brother, you know, i'm the the anti -critical theory guy

01:29:54

Yeah, but you were at a pastor's gathering where I gave a talk Where I was basically saying this to all the guys who

01:30:00

I think are on the right side of the argument with me But I think on judgment day They're going to be surprised how displeased the lord is with them for the way that they're handling it, you know um

01:30:11

And and we've probably been there ourselves right been right in the wrong way Is this is this sophomoric?

01:30:18

Be I mean, I mean isn't it doesn't I can imagine an objector coming along and saying you guys are just tone policing

01:30:27

Right, like here we are out here in these christian streets fighting for our lives Just you know, the the rising tide of secularism and satan's at our doorstep and you guys are out here tone policing

01:30:38

What would you say to them? I just say read romans 14 in the bible prayerfully

01:30:44

Yeah, and I asked the lord to use these words to convict you if you're wrong

01:30:49

Yeah, and that's the best I can do Right, yeah, I can just say look let's spend time in the word of god

01:30:57

Let's ask the spirit to convict us where we're wrong But I think these words are terribly convicting.

01:31:03

Yeah Um, particularly when I begin to feel like okay This particular question is so important to get the right answer to it doesn't matter how

01:31:12

I get there. That's dangerous I don't think paul sides well with me when I do that. Yeah Yeah, that's good brother and we already covered

01:31:21

The epilogue yeah, the epilogue is just You know, there's some aspects of church structure

01:31:28

That can make it easier to do what paul talks about and some things make it harder You wouldn't be a nine marks guy if you didn't somehow get us get us back to quality

01:31:34

Well, like, you know if I have my theology of conversion Done well if it's biblical then i'm less likely to uh

01:31:48

Fill a church full of people who think they're christians because they pray to prayer or you know Walk in the aisle, but they're not actually involved by the spirit of god and they can't do these things that paul talks about if I uh am careful about membership uh, that means that My church is going to be filled with people who were commitment first not comfort first I think that sets them up very well to do this because the consumerism

01:32:11

That membership pushes back against Makes it almost impossible for me to do what paul talks about here.

01:32:18

Yeah Yeah, you take elders The if you have i'm just I don't think you even do this, but i'm just i'm riffing right along with you

01:32:24

If you take the qualifications the character qualifications for an elder seriously They're going to be the kind of men who are role modeling what you're talking about.

01:32:33

They'll submit to one another and yeah Yeah, I mean even and i've seen this on elder boards before i've actually seen both i've seen the negative and the positive

01:32:40

I've seen the negative Where these brothers are ready to kill each other and they're they're coke they're co -shepherds in the church

01:32:47

And they're not doing anything that they need to do to work through it until it explodes And then you're left trying to put the pieces back together versus i've also seen elders who were like You know brother

01:32:57

I have to tell you You're driving me nuts. I love you Let's sit down and figure this out, you know

01:33:04

Uh, and when you have elders who can do that, it just trickles down Yeah, but if you pick your elders because these are the prominent men in the community, right the good business guys

01:33:13

Not based on the character qualifications of first timothy three. Yeah, then you end up with you know, a bunch of Bulls in the china shop kind of goring each other.

01:33:23

Yeah, that's right Final question for you here related to the book Do we need this

01:33:31

Is this generation or at least in our location? Is this is this uniquely needed?

01:33:36

Let me let me say like this You know people have been saying america is more divided than ever, right?

01:33:42

Well What about the civil war? Yeah, right Uh, every generation feels like it's the problems that it's facing the threats that it's facing are are more

01:33:51

You know unique than anything anybody has ever faced before but you highlight four aspects in the book

01:33:58

You highlight four aspects of our cultural moment That are are making us feel these things more acutely you talk about social media the increase in ethnic and racial diversity society becoming more secular and a decreased tolerance and societal discourse

01:34:14

For any deviation from the established orthodoxy. Do you think that that means that we are facing something more acutely than the generations past Yeah, I do and obviously some of those trends

01:34:26

I described are wonderful Right answers that we have prayed about for decades increased diversity.

01:34:33

Yes, of course Uh, which just means that you're more likely especially if you're a white christian in the united states to be at church with people

01:34:40

Who aren't white? Yeah, which means that you're probably going to uh have differences in upbringing culture and even politics that tend to correlate by Ethnicity.

01:34:53

Yeah. Um Yeah other things I think are undeniably bad so we do have an increasingly polarized political environment

01:35:01

I guess the the news here is that doesn't stop at the doors of the church You're you're going to find there are some political positions that are not

01:35:10

Represented there should not be represented in the church, right? but you will find a great diversity of political opinions that are yeah, and uh

01:35:19

You have to recognize that that's part of what it means that we've built the church about christ and not just And not christ in politics.

01:35:25

Yeah uh I'm gonna ask you a question You can tell me if we and I should say at least in my church.

01:35:31

I do feel like It's different than it was 20 years ago. What's the it? Uh, the the kind of disagreements we have as a church.

01:35:39

Okay, and I think I I quote, uh, uh, michael emerson in there, um

01:35:45

Talking about kind of his his he looks broadly across evangelical churches as a sociologist

01:35:50

He also feels and sees that there's a there's a level of stridency in the discourse

01:35:57

That hasn't been there in the past. So I don't know if this is, you know The worst in 50 years or the worst in 10 years

01:36:03

I don't know if it's going to get worse or get better. But I I do think that for many christians.

01:36:08

There's a level of Uh stridency and difference that's difficult

01:36:14

That they're not used to Yeah, and I think we we we need to learn how to love

01:36:21

In that kind of environment because I don't anticipate it's going away. And so you wrote a book about it. Yeah. Yeah.

01:36:26

There you go All right, that is enough about that book. Um, can you tell us the name one more time?

01:36:33

Love the ones who drive you crazy love the ones who drive you crazy available for pre -order right now order right now

01:36:39

Thanksgiving is when it comes out and I think it's number four overall in books on amazon right now I think it's six million something last time.

01:36:46

I looked yes, so I was a little off Uh to to our viewers. Let me just tell you

01:36:51

I read it. I was so encouraged by it I was so encouraged by it. I thought I wonder if this is something that I want like we have a smaller church

01:36:58

I want everyone to read through together in like a small group semester You know just have just take nine weeks and just work through this book

01:37:05

I think the payoff will we're going to talk about this in an elders meeting So that that's that's how much I haven't thought about doing that with any other book other than compelling community

01:37:14

But I think this book is actually more accessible Compelling community is what I think you should read with your elders

01:37:20

This is a book that I would like yeah compelling community was written for elders and pastors Yeah, and i've heard it used by lots of people and in fact,

01:37:28

I put together a study guide Yeah for small groups because I heard so many small groups were using it and I was like, uh, we need a little translation

01:37:35

If you're gonna use it and you're in the pew and not in the pulpit So you did the study guide so the study guide does some of the translation

01:37:41

But this one very much is written for the pew. It's it's I think useful for pastors Yeah, but it's uh, it's aimed at every christian.

01:37:48

Yeah, so good. Um Hey, did I tell you about my friend? She uh, she the girl who only eats vegetables

01:37:56

That one i've not heard yet. Yes, but I I tremble. Yeah, you've never heard of her before Uh, it's good.

01:38:03

Actually, it's not good Wow, so now i'm the difficult one. Hey, you're if you don't like a good dad joke

01:38:10

You're the difficult one to love but now I I feel equipped to love you Uh, what are you reading right now? So after you preached on sunday at the garden church

01:38:17

Yeah, and my kids heard your jokes. Yeah, my daughter said well I can tell he is a dad. Hey She appreciated it.

01:38:24

I think she did. There you go. One of them Uh, what are you reading right now? Oh, uh right now i'm reading a theology of the new testament by lad.

01:38:33

Yeah george Yeah, yep. All right, just is it good bad and different taking a class in the gospels and it's assigned reading and It's been useful.

01:38:43

It's uh so Uh, he's I would assume he's dead by now professor at fuller seminary if he's alive, you're gonna feel so bad

01:38:53

Sorry, yeah He's actually like he's gonna be watching this comment to the youtube section.

01:38:58

That's right lad If you are still alive, it's it's it's really useful to kind of get a

01:39:04

An assessment of biblical criticism by someone who generally lines up on an evangelical and errantist viewpoint.

01:39:11

Okay now, okay entirely Yeah, forget that You are how old are you? 46.

01:39:17

God, I didn't realize you were 46 Older or younger you look younger. You're 46

01:39:22

And you've been a pastor for 15 years. Yep, and you're in seminary. What's up with that?

01:39:29

Yeah. Yeah uh, well When I became a pastor

01:39:34

My job description assumed that i'd be spending 75 of my job doing admin stuff.

01:39:40

Yeah, 25 pastoral And that proved not to be the case Uh, so it's probably flipped just the admin stuff wasn't as big and hairy as it looked on the outside.

01:39:49

Yeah and so, uh You know,

01:39:55

I didn't really think about going to seminary for a while after a few years it hit me gosh

01:40:00

My job would really benefit from that education And eventually

01:40:05

I had a little time and so I decided to take a seminary class To convince myself that I wouldn't learn anything if I went to seminary.

01:40:14

Yeah, who needs it more like cemetery. Am I right? Exactly. So I was uh, I was disturbed how much

01:40:21

I learned I learned a lot And so I decided okay. I'm just going to take a few seminary classes

01:40:30

And then I kind of kept expanding the categories I wanted to take as I kept getting more good information out of them

01:40:36

Yeah, and so at this point in time i'm trying to finish my degree. Wow. Praise god. How close are you? Uh depends on how busy

01:40:43

I get. Okay. Yeah, I could I could finish the next year and a half How do you find time to do that?

01:40:49

I mean you you have small children and not so small children at home teenagers Yeah, that's right. But you um, well right now i'm on a three month sabbatical

01:40:56

So i've just tried to cram a bunch of classes in well, that's restful. So that's been well it is

01:41:01

I mean being a full -time student is fantastic. You just didn't realize it. I didn't realize it when I was a full -time student so uh sabbatical time and then just When it looks like our we're fully staffed

01:41:14

Uh the church staff and there's nothing else big going on I'll try to grab a class or two does chbc allow any time during your work week to like, you know

01:41:23

Take 10 hours a week and work. Yeah, I think the general assumption is if I get my work done I can do what I want with my time nice smart, which is very generous of them very generous

01:41:31

Yeah, but you know, you're not taking classes for yourself, you know, you're taking classes I see benefit in my pastoral ministry from the classes.

01:41:39

I take it's yeah, it's really useful What's been the most pastorally beneficial class you've taken like oh man,

01:41:45

I really feel like hermeneutics or systematic theology church history counseling Okay, this is this is not

01:41:52

Uh an answer that I would have expected before I began seminary probably church history. Yeah Um, just to be able to see

01:42:00

The debates that go on in the church today through the lens of history has been really helpful Yeah, I think it allows you to have

01:42:07

It allows you to panic less. Yeah Uh to worry more about things that you should be worried about and to generally have a nice long -term perspective on things

01:42:16

That's good, brother and the professor I had was Wonderfully pastoral in his approach that also helped.

01:42:22

Oh, you're at rts, right? Yes. So chad van dick's horn who's now at westminster. What a fun name

01:42:28

He said they're all dutch right all the presbyterians. Yeah dutch are korean Increasingly, I met him in hong kong actually

01:42:36

Van dick's horn dick's horn. Yes. Wow. He and I were both speaking at Church retreats.

01:42:42

I was at the chinese Baptist retreat And it was the same camp as the chinese presbyterian retreat that he was speaking at And I happen to know the guy who organized the chinese presbyterian retreat and he introduced me to chad

01:42:53

Uh who then later became dr. Van dick's horn as far as I was concerned, you know It's it's quite an interesting pairing of names van dick's horn sounds very highfalutin chad sounds like you know, uh

01:43:06

What the the kappa kappa kappa, what are those guys called? Fraternity fraternity sounds like yeah, bro, you know anyways, you'll probably cut that part out now people know i'm an idiot um, okay, so Uh, what are your top five and if you don't have five that's fine

01:43:24

If you have seven that's also fine. That's the number of completion in the bible. You probably learned about that in seminary uh, do you

01:43:31

Do they offer a numerology class? Uh, no, no, okay, well at least not in my seminary top five books just top five books

01:43:39

So here's something you should know sean i'm not a reader I know I look like I look like a reader.

01:43:46

Yeah, I bench like a reader. Yeah, but you're actually like really into like football No, no, okay.

01:43:53

No, so I but you've been a christian for a long christian for a long time But i'm not the kind of guy

01:43:58

I I read with a purpose Okay, so I read some so I I love reading fiction um, and in terms of christian stuff

01:44:07

I always have a particular like i'm reading the book to get this out of it Which means I have many unfinished books on my bookshelf

01:44:14

Sure, like i'll get two thirds of the way through got what I need. I think I got it. I'm, you know, peace out.

01:44:20

Yeah, so And you can include fiction books if you want. Yeah. Well, i'll do christian books.

01:44:26

So top five, uh Top five that I recommend are top five influential on me.

01:44:32

However, you want me to do influential on me. Okay Um, so the most influential christian book I ever read was desiring god by john piper

01:44:39

Yeah, and it was influential because it's the first christian book i'd ever read I was 15.

01:44:44

My pastor gave it to me. You read it at 15. I did finish it. I I Well, yeah, because I was reading it with my pastor.

01:44:51

Oh, okay, and it just blew all my concepts. Yeah, right You were like I can actually enjoy god.

01:44:57

Wow Well, and that that's like a hugely important thing. Yeah, right Um, so that was very influential.

01:45:04

Another influential one was the call by oz guinness. Oh uh That was especially helpful when

01:45:11

I was in the workplace It's just it's a theology of work. He's kind of historically

01:45:17

Helping understand what was the protestant era? What was the roman catholic era? And what's the what's a biblical view of vocation?

01:45:24

Yeah, really doctor of vocation jean Also wrote a book god at work, which is similar. It's always very helpful um

01:45:30

But very transformative and how I thought about my job and once I became a pastor how I thought of pastoring people who have jobs

01:45:37

I appreciate oz guinness. I I can almost never Finish a book by him. I find his prose to be distracting.

01:45:44

I guess is what I would say But uh, mike not mike mckinley who wrote the gospel at work

01:45:50

Uh, sebastian trager sebastian trager and greg gilbert. That's a good companion book to go with us Yes, and I think more accessible.

01:45:57

Yeah, and a lot shorter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Uh, what else has been really influential on me?

01:46:02

I mean, uh, though it was a sermon series that later became a book nine marks of a healthy church

01:46:09

I think that was my first sermon series at capitol hill baptist church. Oh, you're a member there. I was a

01:46:14

I was a member there and Yeah, it was just it was really funny that one of the very first First Sermons I heard was a topical sermon on expositional preaching.

01:46:25

Wow. Yeah, that is funny again blew my category you know the first time I read that book I was I was just like Because I didn't have

01:46:32

I didn't have the structure for that to make sense, you know, I was like yeah expositional preaching

01:46:38

That's good biblical theology. I don't know Uh, and then when I was a member of chbc for a year

01:46:46

Then after having breathed in the atmosphere I was like, oh Which is really the value of the internship, right?

01:46:52

You read the books and then you see it in action, right? But yeah, I didn't have the depth in me to appreciate how profound

01:46:59

Yeah, that was okay, uh before seen and savoring jesus christ by john piper. Yeah, have you read it?

01:47:06

Uh, I rarely talk to anybody who knows the book. I have you have okay It was uh some missionaries that joan and I support who sent it to us for a christmas gift

01:47:15

We read it through together. Okay, and I found my affections for jesus christ Uh power through that book in a way.

01:47:22

I don't think i'd ever had with anything else before wow And again, I think it was kind of the right book at the right time

01:47:28

But I would say before reading that book my love for christ was fairly academic

01:47:34

Like it was on a ledger, you know, he did all this stuff for me I did all the stuff to him.

01:47:40

Wow, that looks amazing. Yeah, I wouldn't say I had a love for jesus. Yeah And something about reading that book just sort of like clicked something in my mind and I just said wow

01:47:49

And so one way even after you had already read desiring god. Yes years earlier. Yeah, even that was academic

01:47:56

You were like, okay intellectually now, I understand it makes sense. Yeah. Yes The category so I think one big difference in my life after reading seen and savoring jesus christ was the gospels felt alive

01:48:08

I always loved the epistles and kind of made my way through the gospels like oh, it's a bunch of stories about jesus

01:48:13

Yeah, but the gospels became the the picture frame through which I saw jesus.

01:48:18

Yeah, and he's he's amazing And uh, so yeah, there's something something changed my view of scripture there um, you know piper he uh

01:48:29

Kevin young says every author really just writes different iterations of the same book Certainly true of john piper.

01:48:34

It's most true of john piper, but uh, he always You always think he's not going to do it to me again, and then he does and it's so useful every time every time

01:48:43

So like I just finished a couple months back come lord. Jesus his book on um eschatology

01:48:49

And I was like, you know listen john piper's my hero I probably don't want to learn eschatology from at least not right now.

01:48:56

I don't know and one day I just picked it up in my office in the chapter and I was like He did it again

01:49:02

Because the whole book is about like longing for the coming of christ, right? Like do you love him so much that you're like you want him here come now lord.

01:49:12

Jesus Yeah, I was like he did it again, man. So he's infectious. Yeah. Yeah Uh holiness by jc ryle.

01:49:19

That's number four. I don't know what we're on right now. Okay um What did that do for me?

01:49:27

I mean it was my introduction to ryle Uh, I I think it's eminently readable even today.

01:49:33

It's very readable Um his chapter in the thief at the cross uh,

01:49:38

I think it's called god's greatest triumph or something like that he just um, he marvels at the faith of the thief on the cross.

01:49:48

Yeah that you know Even after jesus was raised from the dead there were people who wouldn't believe in him.

01:49:55

Yeah, but here's a guy hanging on a cross And Another guy looks across at him and says yes.

01:50:02

I believe that you are the son of god It's like that faith is astounding

01:50:08

Right, and I think that that kind of shaped my view of faith in some really significant ways um

01:50:14

Totally different category canon revisited by michael kruger. That is a very different. I would not have expected that I have read many books on the inerrancy of scripture over time.

01:50:24

It's a it's a doctrine which has always Troubled me. Yeah, um Because it's not cut and dry

01:50:31

Right that you know what I have here is uh

01:50:37

At least in his original autographs the exact inspired inerrant words of god.

01:50:42

Yeah, so i've always believed it uh But I have always been a little uncomfortable with kind of what's underneath it.

01:50:50

Okay, and I thought kruger's book was uh along with warfields Uh, maybe the most helpful i've ever read and of course warfields is just series of articles

01:50:59

Yeah, the inspiration authority of scripture kruger's really kind of holds together And does a really good job of helping you understand what questions you should be asking yeah, his uh

01:51:10

His discussion of like the self -authenticating nature of scripture piper actually in his he has three books on On scripture as well.

01:51:17

He does the same thing. Yeah, he's like, you know With all with all due respect to john piper I read piper's and then

01:51:23

I read kruger's I found kruger's much more helpful Well, I mean that's kind of his jam right poop piper's like I want

01:51:29

I want you to know this Kruger that's what he teaches. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

01:51:34

That's a that's a very uh, good five Is there another one? I don't know. I'm sure there's more On the jc ryle holiness

01:51:43

I I got I wanted to get some copies for a bookstall And I was very bummed to find that like for whatever reason the only and if if any of our viewers

01:51:54

No, like if i'm wrong about this, please point it out, but i've asked other people and they found the same thing the only versions of the book that you can buy now are like big and ugly and the font is it's like You can't that's unfortunate

01:52:07

Yeah, so if you know of uh of like a more modern accessible version of jc ryle's holiness link, uh posted you can still buy

01:52:15

Yeah that you can still buy yeah, um Are you allowed to have a favorite book of the bible?

01:52:22

It changes all the time. Yeah, what's what's your what's your like man? Oh right now. It's just oh it's really doing it for me.

01:52:28

Uh Let's see. I'm Nay, who i'm always big on ruth. I just preached to malachi over the summer and I loved it

01:52:36

I've always liked malik. Is that because you wrote a book on tithing? Uh, I think malachi is deeply disquoted on time um uh

01:52:46

I love the book of john. Um So you must have been in a love affair with romans when you memorized it

01:52:57

Yes, very much. So and same thing with john. Uh Yeah, uh, so if I had to pick it out,

01:53:03

I think it might be ruth. Yeah, I know there's not as much Theological grounding there as you'll find elsewhere but just as a as a a a real

01:53:14

Historical parable Of the way god treated his people. Yeah, it's just it's beautiful and and I particularly am just so struck

01:53:23

With god's tender affection for naomi. Yeah, like if there's anybody you would think he could just write off and not worry about it's this bitter widow who uh fled the land in disobedience and Um, and yet he just sort of surrounds her with his mercy and goodness

01:53:42

To woo her back and then blesses her in ways. She didn't even know in her lifetime she couldn't even ask for that kind of no and so just just the the uh,

01:53:52

The voracious mercy of god that I see in that book is just I I find it captivating.

01:53:58

Yeah You know, the bible is a living book and uh, and and we are living beings it almost seems like as we enter into different phases of our life

01:54:09

Like different parts of the living words speak to us more powerfully, you know at this point we need to hear this at this point

01:54:15

We need to hear this Hopefully we're reading through it regularly, but different parts are always going to jump out at us Last question maybe the most important question

01:54:23

And it's a two -part. Um Uh, what is your least favorite candy and what is your most favorite candy now?

01:54:32

This is going to reveal a lot about your character. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Uh This may actually be undo some of the work we've done to build our friendship

01:54:40

I mean most favorites is gonna be like those generic orange sugary things

01:54:50

Sometimes peach works Wow, those things they don't even have a name because yeah, what do you call them?

01:54:56

Yeah, you get them like the five and dime you got to scrape them out of your teeth Yeah, you got it. You got it and it's just like disgustingly sugary.

01:55:02

Yeah Yeah, I really like the texture and they're cheap too. You're not gonna break the bank dollar and give yourself a hard time uh least favorite candy um anything flavored artificial grape

01:55:15

Oh I just I had braces when I was a child and I had this terrible experience.

01:55:23

Your teeth aren't that straight with My orthodontist said I was the worst patient in his entire career.

01:55:30

He was like in the 60s at the time. Okay But they gave me this great flavoring for the mold thing in my mouth.

01:55:36

I've never forgotten the taste of it Yeah, and so whenever I guess it reminds me I just childhood trauma.

01:55:41

Exactly. Is that why I hate black licorice did There's something bad happening.

01:55:47

I love black licorice. You love black licorice. I do Oh, man, well, here we go as we said nothing in common.

01:55:55

Yeah, right, but christ. Yes, dude black like okay Do you would you eat at uh, would you eat like at a long john silvers or like a captain d's?

01:56:03

Yeah, okay I haven't in years because there's no none of them anywhere close to me But okay, listen, this isn't germane to the topic, but I have to know who does eat there.

01:56:12

That's a good question Nobody near me. I've never been in a group of people and had someone say nah, let's not do that.

01:56:19

Let's go to captain d's I've never been like, all right, let's go to long john silver When I was growing up there's a long john silvers in our town

01:56:27

And I just thought it looked really cool and I was always dying to go there. Okay. Yeah, and did you go?

01:56:33

I'm, sure I did. Yeah, that story was and that's the most anticlimactic story And on that note, we will close brother.

01:56:40

Maybe we'll cut that one out. No, I don't know. We're definitely leaving it in uh Great interview even better.

01:56:47

The book is better than the interview for sure Hopefully certain parts of this interview. It's always sad. You have to say that well, it's because of me

01:56:53

My deep inferior. I hate myself. So i'm going to spend the rest of the night thinking about how I screwed up this interview But thank you for being a part of this brother

01:57:00

I hope it whets the appetite of many and that they go and they get a copy Well, and i'll tell you what if if if there's any good in that book

01:57:09

It's if it it gets you back into romans 12 13 14 15 and you see it in new ways because everybody loves romans 8

01:57:18

They get you know shipwrecked as they get into it They don't get shipwrecked in romans 9 by the time they're romans 11.

01:57:23

They're like, okay i'm done with this. Yeah, right And those chapters are important, but there is just Gold in the end of the book.

01:57:30

Yeah, I think it's especially Important for us today In the church context we're in amen.

01:57:36

All right. Let me pray Lord thank you for your mercy Uh help us to meditate it on it much help us to be overwhelmed by it um help us to move beyond an intellectual grasping of the reality of the mercy we've received but to To understand it deep down in our hearts and our in our bowels and our bones and to be people who reflect that mercy

01:58:03

To others lord help our churches We pray god specifically that you'll bless this podcast

01:58:10

That anyone who will hear will be challenged to be merciful in the church to love others

01:58:16

Well to recognize that they themselves are vessels of mercy and and to live like that's true

01:58:21

We pray that you'll bless jamie's continuing ministry at capitol hill baptist church that you will bless his writing that you'll bless this book

01:58:28

And we ask all these things in the mighty glorious beautiful. Holy name of jesus christ.

01:58:33

Amen. Amen Let me record my immovable conviction

01:58:54

That this is the noblest service In which any human being can spend or be spent?

01:59:03

and that If god gave me back my life to be lived over again

01:59:09

I would without one quiver of hesitation Lay it on the altar to christ that he might use it as before in similar ministries of love

01:59:24

Especially amongst those who have never yet heard the name of jesus

02:00:01

At ten of those we want to serve the local church by equipping your church family

02:00:06

With great resources that are going to point them to jesus. So we'll come and set up a pop -up bookstore in your church

02:00:13

There's no charge. We'll come for your sunday services. Maybe you've got a weekend retreat or a conference

02:00:19

We would love to come and then make recommendations This is one i've read three times now.

02:00:25

It's called incomparable by andrew wilson and he goes through 60 characteristics

02:00:32

I've got it just wonderfully takes our eyes off of the world off ourselves

02:00:37

And puts them on our savior now. We've got lots of things for families and uh, and kids for parents

02:00:44

I want to recommend this series. This one is raising kids in a screen saturated world Our passion is to get good books that holds the bible read by as many people as possible

02:00:55

We handpick our bookstore. It's curated. So we know everything we sell will point to the lord.

02:01:01

Jesus Everything's discounted And as we make recommendations, we're seeking to serve your church family so that they may be excited and equipped