Cultish: Is Seventh Day Adventism a Cult? Pt. 1

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Cultish: Is Seventh Day Adventism A Cult? Pt. 2

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Hey, what's up everyone? This is Jeremiah Roberts one of the co -hosts here at cultish believe it or not We are at the end of the year again.

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Enjoy this podcast All right.

01:14

Welcome back. Ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts one of the coast here

01:22

Appreciate you all waiting patiently for chapter 2 of our discussion on seventh -day adventism

01:30

Very very excited super excited, of course for this episode as always and joined with Andrew the super sleuth of the show

01:37

From a super secret headquarters up in Utah. It's good to have you in for chapter 2 on seventh -day adventism.

01:44

Oh Yeah, I'm excited man. I'm just chilling here somewhere deep dark past the

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Orion's belt waiting Into the seventh -day adventist great controversy,

01:57

I guess Excellent. Excellent. Well, I'm very very happy to have both you on. Thank you so much for coming on Colleen Nikki is good to have you back does very quickly before you jump in just tell everyone just a little bit about yourself

02:07

Your ministry and what makes you somewhat of need to be knowledgeable on the subject. We're going to talk about today

02:14

Well, I'm calling tinker and I am the editor of proclamation magazine Which is produced by life assurance ministries.

02:23

My husband Richard and I are Signing board members of founding board members of life assurance ministries, which started in the year 2000 it was founded by former

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Adventist pastor Dale Ratzlaff Richard is now the president of the ministry and we

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Nikki and I also on our co -hosts of the former Adventist podcast Which has been in operation for about two years and has developed a whole new audience, but we exist to Expose the truth of Adventism and to show

02:55

Adventist the true gospel and it's for people who are questioning and leaving Adventism and it's also for concerned

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Christians who really want to understand what this religion is about. Okay Good, and I'm Nikki.

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I was in Adventism for 30 years. I got saved in 2010 Through the work of this ministry

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They acted as an interpreter in a sense helping me understand the language differences between Christianity and Adventism and In doing that I was able to understand that gospel for the first time.

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So I came to faith at 30 and I have been working with life assurance ministries since then writing for them and Co -hosting with Colleen came out with my husband, by the way, and our two children have never been

03:39

Adventist And real quick before we jump in where's the website where people can find out more about you

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They want to find out more about your ministry resources so forth and so on Proclamation magazine calm is our

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Major website and you have links from there to our other places including our YouTube channel the podcast and so forth

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05:05

Excellent and as always just before you jump in We also want to let you know that a program like cultish would not be possible without your support

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I would ask you prayerfully consider donating so we can keep this program here on the air alright, so we are going to be talking our

05:39

Podcasts today are the second chapter is tight. It's very controversial. It's called is Seventh -day Adventism a cult so we spent chapter one really talking about Lng white the

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Millerites what was going on at that time historically? Just the everything until definitely if this is that definitely check out chapter one if you haven't listened to that yet But we're gonna be talking about really contextually

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After LNG white passed away It was not considered a Christian organization for your perspective

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And it wasn't until actually Walter Martin who wrote the appendix to kingdom of the cults

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Well, he wrote Kingdom the cults, but a Seventh -day Adventism showed up in an appendix Tell us about that and explain the controversy behind that well, the interesting thing was

06:28

Walter Martin who was a close friend and colleague of And a man actually older than he but it was

06:35

Donald Gray Barnhouse they were colleagues and Walter Martin had already written and done research on Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses and had labeled them in print as cults and So the

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Adventist knew that Walter Martin was investigating the cruise the so -called Christian cults and One of the leaders of Adventism whose name was

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Leroy Froome He represented that he was from the General Conference in a he had a specific capacity and he contacted

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Walter Martin and asked if he could have an interview with him because Froome did not want him to investigate

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Adventism and label it a cult even though it Primarily was considered a cult up until that time

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So Walter Martin made arrangements to meet with Froome but behind the scenes and I think that this is where Many things went off the rails that were not known at first the

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Adventist organization were Carefully hand -picked the people who would meet with Walter Martin prepped them and chose people who understood how to talk to non

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Adventists and Set up a series of meetings and Walter Martin who was only 26 years old at the time

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Met with these older men who were rather experienced in dealing with the evangelicals and the rest is history

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That's that was the beginning. What about you Nikki? Do you have any commentary or thoughts on that that you're aware of?

08:06

No, no that she said it. Well, okay. Excellent. And so what's interesting is that as It every single edition of Kingdom of the

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Cults has Seventh -day Adventism listed in an appendix and For my understanding and this has just always been the case which goes to show that as much as we look we love dr

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Walter Martin, he's been very I mean he had such an amazing impact in this area of Christian apologetics

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But you also have to understand to they all you know, no one's perfect We deal the best given the information that we're dealing with but it did create a lot of Controversy Particularly.

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Yes. Tell us just tell everyone just what was some of the fallout when it showed up in the appendix versus a definitive cult

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Because you have Mormonism Jehovah's the section on Jehovah's Witnesses, by the way is excellent It's so thorough both historically theologically and you have

08:57

Scientology Mormonism all these categories, but but there's

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Seventh -day Adventism in the appendix. What sort of controversy that create? Well, it was huge it was a huge controversy both in Christianity and Within Adventism by the time this was all done because the fact is

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Adventism From the beginning and has never actually changed except for in the way

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It's worded at the you know on the outside for the public to read Adventism has always had a different worldview than Christianity, but it has a vocabulary difference

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So while the words sound the same the vocabulary changes and over time Adventism had cleaned up a lot of its definitions.

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It began overtly as an anti -trinitarian Aryan to semi -Aryan

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Religion that grew out of the Millerite movement. It wasn't the Millerite movement that determined its doctrines

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It's doc the Millerite movement only brought together The people who coalesced into what became

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Seventh -day Adventism along with many other groups that we're not dealing with today But Millerite the

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Millerite movement was only like the solution in which the coalescence happened

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So these people came together and the primary leaders were Jason James White Joseph Bates Both of whom were from the

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Christian connection staunchly and verbally anti -trinitarian Ellen White who was a visionary and a

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James White married her mostly because her visions Promoted he gave him something to sell something to attract the people

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Her visions became a means of actually money -making because he could sell them and attract the following So as they did this their doctrines were all formed around This anti -trinitarian stance this belief that God including the father had a body

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That Man is not does not have a spiritual nature. His only a body that breathes and these

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Fundamental differences in the natures of reality have always shaped Adventism So this was the thing that I know

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Walter Martin didn't fully understand or any of the Christians at the time But it's what really set Adventism apart.

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It learned to use normal Christian words about atonement Sacrifice Jesus Trinity it used normal Christian words unlike the

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Mormons who actually Admitted they had God the Father and Jesus, you know

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So they were a little more open about their beliefs. So were the Jehovah's Witnesses, but Adventism was truly deceptive and the longer they existed the more deceptive they became

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So that was what really underplay what happened in the 1950s with Walter Martin He believed their words these people who got together and decided they would use

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Vocabulary that would convince Walter Martin that they were truly Christian but he didn't look under the surface at the roots and I just want to say any organization that is founded out of a

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Traditional heresy such as Arianism or anti -trinitarianism and never renounces it never goes back on it

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But just alters the way it talks. It's the root that determines the nature of that organization.

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It's not what they say 20 years 30 years 100 years later. Okay, and Nikki.

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Do you have any commentary or thoughts? Well as far as the controversy around the kingdom of the cults book

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I can't speak a lot to the history there But I can tell you as an Adventist growing up in an Adventist home.

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I saw that book in our home out on the counter and It's it's a strange way to process it, but I thought oh, yeah

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See, we're not a cult because we have a book about the cults So we're not a part of the cults and I remember

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I wasn't until I was an adult that I knew that the Adventist Were in the appendix of that and I thought ooh, we came really close, didn't we?

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And I kind of felt like we dodged a bullet a little but We believed we were the remnant and so of course we'd be a little peculiar and people wouldn't quite get us but it's kind of like um

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Just being misunderstood, you know, it wasn't a problem. So somehow I felt vindicated and special by having it around I Well, just interesting because just at least for me almost like an unconscious level

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I remember the first I went to a high school is 90 % Mormon I think I mentioned that and I had like two or three classmates that were seventh -day

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Adventist and for them interesting Yeah, I just always anytime I've heard about people who are

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SDA and even I've had co -workers I think I went to a baby shower one time at a seventh -day Adventist congregation because my co -worker was there and his wife they were expecting and And yeah, it was just it seems like they were people who are

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Christians who are just maybe misunderstood a little bit Like I just then when you mentioned that it just comes to mind that was sort of my mindset that I've had

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Continually and that I feel like even now sort of looking at this material and even talking to you

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I feel still like that's my mindset. Maybe that's indicative of a lot of our audience real quickly

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We are gonna play a clip in just a moment cut. That's gonna be a catalyst for our conversation But Andrew I heard you while jumping in here.

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What what a question. Did you have real quickly about this? Yeah Yeah, so just to give like a little bit of a timeline

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Walter Martin and Barnhouse and a few other people They met with the seventh -day Adventist Specific people like Colleen mentioned which

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I think would be great if she talked about that and the importance of that later But this was between 1955 and 1956 and there was a series of 18 different meetings

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But could you paint for a picture for us real quick guys? Like what was the growth of the seventh -day Adventist like let's say

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I'm gonna use 1863 for example Just because that's the date when they you know become an organization, although they existed prior before then but from 1863 to 1955 like what was the growth of the

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SDA? Organization like oh were there colleges now was their exponential growth because question.

15:02

Yeah Yeah, there definitely were they definitely had a whole system of colleges

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Loma Linda University was in existence It is their flagship medical school

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You know, I was University But I say Nander's University exists their seminary existed

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They have you know, I know I can't name them all but I know there's Walla Walla College in the

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Pacific Northwest There's Pacific Union College in Northern, California La Sierra University in Southern, California.

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There's Atlantic in University Atlantic in Massachusetts It's in South Lancaster, Massachusetts. I I think it might be closed now, but it's very recently.

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Yeah, very recently There's Southern Adventist University in Tennessee there's Southwestern in Keene, Texas and then there were a host of boarding academies that and day academies that existed by then and Very importantly a whole chain of hospitals and that was worldwide

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There were Adventist hospitals everywhere, especially in the North America But it was their primary and still is probably their primary evangelistic tool the health message

16:08

Yeah, like so it organizationally to get expanded. Yeah, so it seems to me like during this time around 1955 1956 and then they released the questions on doctrine 1957 in direct a

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Result of the conversations that they had with Walter Martin and bought Barnhouse But it seems like they're trying to save face right because they have so much on the line because back then information didn't travel the same way it does now where we can just go on the internet and look things up when

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If Walter Martin is working on a book that will definitely call something a cult anyone who is reading these

16:40

Types of material are gonna be very well educated now on how to handle the situations and that's really bad publicity back then so I find that to be really

16:50

Interesting and just a note too. I think Walter Martin, which maybe you guys can talk about But he was concerned about the following things

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He was concerned that the Seventh -day Adventist taught that the Atonement of Christ was not completed on the cross, right?

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That salvation is a result of grace plus works of the law We kind of went into that in chapter one But that also

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Jesus was a created being and that he partook of man's sinful fallen nature in his incarnation and all of these things

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Were supposedly handled in the response on the questions and doctrines, correct? correct supposedly

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Did you want me to comment on that a little bit? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, please. Okay. Okay as far as the

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The Atonement and the in and the nature of Christ were the two primary things that were of the greatest concern perhaps

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From the Adventist side because they were the two things that were the hardest to explain in Christian terms

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Because Adventism because of Ellen White's teaching on the investigative judgment

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Adventism had always believed and I have to say still does officially teach that Christ's Atonement was not completed on the cross.

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So how are they going to convince Walter Martin that they were Orthodox? Well, they they used a clever way of Defining it.

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They said that Jesus's death was the sacrificial provision provided but that he

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Applies it in heaven and they worded it in a way so that Christians would think well sure

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Jesus is our high priest in heaven. So everything he accomplished is being mediated for us as believers

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That's how they understood they worded it so that Walter Martin would see it that way in reality they were hiding the fact that in that They didn't believe that the entire

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Atonement was completed at the cross because Adventists do not believe that when you quotes accept Jesus And I say that in quotes because for them it's a different thing from trusting and being born again

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But they taught that when you accepted Jesus then all your past sins were forgiven but all your future sins had to be

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Individually confessed and forgiven because of Jesus applying his blood in heaven, but they couldn't say that to Walter Martin because that's clearly heretical so they

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Morphed the words so they had these two things the sacrifice provided Excuse me, the sacrificial

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Atonement provided and then the sacrificial Atonement applied So that was the least of their problems the interestingly the

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Adventist historian George Knight who wrote an introductory set of annotations to a republished edition of questions on doctrine in 2003 he actually states that they

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Didn't exactly tell the truth when they talked about the nature of Christ. They Reasoned and rationalized that they were dealing with very

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Rigid and stubborn Dispensational Calvinists in the persons of Walter Martin and Barnhouse Who definitely wouldn't understand what they were trying to say?

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So they tried to make him understand and they actually said in the book questions on doctrine They stuck in an extra heading in the in the chapter on the nature of Christ where they said he took on sinless humanity

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But that had never been a traditional teaching of Adventism, yeah, and So it went from there

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There was a deception and it threw everybody into confusion and just for anyone to kind of jumping in because we are

20:23

Really? This is a firehose of information and we're so appreciative both of you coming on No, it's no problem at all.

20:29

Nothing to apologize for for anyone just we want to make sure we define terms questions on doctrine just very quickly explain

20:36

That what that book was in fact, that's actually one of the pictures that we have on the graphics for this episode

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Tell everyone what that book was who wrote it and what is the nature of the book in relation to the appendix?

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That was written by dr. Walter Martin in Kingdom of the Colts and that hold this whole conversation Sure questions on doctrine was the fruit of these meetings that the

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Adventist had with Walter Martin He presented his concerns and they crafted a book that would answer his concerns in a way that satisfied him and satisfied the evangelicals and allowed for Evangelicals to extend the right hand of fellowship to them and prevent them from being categorized with the cults

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So you look at you look at the chapters as an evangelical and I'm I'm assuming that it sounds

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Okay, maybe a little bit off here and there But it was accepted and it was accepted at the advisement of Eternity magazine and Walter Martin and Barnhouse But the

21:39

Adventists when they saw this book the majority of them felt betrayed because it was using language

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They didn't understand it was and you have to understand that the doctrines that came out of Seventh -day

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Adventism and Ellen White They were remnant last -day doctrines that if you failed to hold on to you would receive the mark of the beast and die

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So it felt like apostasy to traditional Adventist to see a book like this come out and start altering

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Lessons that came from the throne room of God according to their convictions. So it just sent cracks all through I mean you had people who were embarrassed and ashamed of Adventism embracing it

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But I would argue that even in their embracing of questions on doctrine they

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Didn't know the gospel even if the word sounded closer. They didn't know how to redefine it and understand it

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Okay in fact in fact the very conservative Adventists who were not included in the writing of questions on doctrine including

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Adventism's greatest theologian whose last name was Andreessen He was deliberately excluded not just not invited.

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He was told not to help Not to attend the meetings not to help with the writing and even he at the very end of it

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All after the book was published admitted in his you know his way He said this book has not repudiated any of our traditional doctrines except he would argue it repudiated the

23:06

Adventist view of atonement because it really morphed it really Morphed the way they understood the three -part or two -part atonement

23:13

Some people three something to so but it did not repudiate but yet people thought it repudiated it which

23:20

I think illustrates the problem within Sorry for interrupting your currently scheduled programming

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So, please go to apology of studios calm and become an all -access member now back to the programming very interesting in fact

24:03

I'll just I just want to say something real quickly and then Andrew or any or you both can give me some commentary give me your thoughts is that when it comes to communication in the area of the kingdom of the cults is that there's a distinction between Material and content that's written by the organization for members or the or of the organization

24:22

Versus content that's specifically made by the organization and how they communicate to non members

24:29

So like one example of fragmentation that happened in the Mormon Church and this would have been

24:34

I believe in the 90s when Gordon B Hinckley was the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints I believe he was on an interview with 60 minutes and He was asked by the host whether or they not they could they believe that they can become a god now this is central

24:48

Mormon doctrine like this is Mormon Orthodoxy 101 and More Gordon B.

24:53

Hinckley given the publicist that he was, you know, he tried to explain the ways like yeah That's just some sort of very like deep doctrine

24:59

We don't know much about and so he was trying to save face for the outside But then people on the inside of Mormonism there became this real big fragmentation.

25:09

So all of a sudden something that was so sacred and Precious to them and the reason why they're going through to go to the temple day after day to do all these things to complete

25:19

All these works. This is now that some sort of vague deep deep doctrine and from then like yeah

25:24

Mormonism started fragments in this post into something that's postmodern, but I think there's a huge distinction Between those two but a lot of times even the members internally they they even though the organization up front is trying to save face

25:37

When a member reads that there's almost a language barrier that begins to start to create fragmentation.

25:42

What are your thoughts on that? Absolutely, true. That's what happened with questions on doctrine

25:48

Yeah, and and it's it's also it's produced generations of Adventists now who maybe they have more

25:55

Evangelical language, but the definitions are still Adventist. So now you go like I shared with you guys last time

26:01

I would go to Christian concerts and I would go to conferences and I'd hear them talk And I would sit there probably about as confused as Christians feel when they listen to an

26:10

Adventist talk I it almost sounded right I wasn't sure what they knew that I didn't because they were so much happier than I was but I thought we believed the same thing, but I and so it became um

26:23

For the younger generations coming out of that it became a not so much a reform for us

26:30

It wasn't something that brought us closer to truth It was something that almost cut us off from being able to hear it, right?

26:37

I would totally agree with that My husband says that when questions on doctrine was printed um

26:43

Well, he he was too young probably to remember that but and in the years that followed He remembered his father huffing around the house going they sold us down the river they sold us down the river but at the same time he and I grew up in a generation where the effects of questions on doctrine were having um, they were they had this

27:05

Effectance within adventism where it was moving more and more towards something that sounded less distinctive, you know

27:12

We prided ourselves on being The peculiar remnant but we kind of dropped that language and we started sounding more and more christian

27:21

And yet like nicky says underneath the meanings never changed and even though the way we talked about it changed

27:28

Nobody told us the true gospel Nobody could explain it. In fact to this day. I have never met an adventist to whom

27:35

I could say What is the gospel and have them actually be able to tell me? Well, it didn't help the church, you know what

27:42

I am absolutely convinced that all this Superficial whitewashing that these groups do to sound acceptable and to be seen as normal It's like nicky says it cuts its people off from the gospel because they think they're there now

27:58

And they're really not their worldview is still stuck in the original worldview And they don't know it

28:06

Andrew no, thank you. Uh, andrew what what thoughts or commentary question do you have? Yeah, it sounds to me like it's like like you're talking about jerry

28:14

It's a form of information control and almost a form of thought Control as well because if we think about the questions and uh questions on doctrine that was released in 1957

28:23

Since they specifically partitioned that certain leaders were going to be part of these conferences and certain conservative leaders that wouldn't bend the knee

28:30

Won't be part of these conversations it seemed like they were trying to uh, what's the word like quickly figure something out and they made really really bad decisions and There's uh when there's one leading organization that's in control of all of the information

28:47

This shows you the damage that that that that that happens from that, right? Like so i'd say in biblical christianity

28:53

We have the bible as our sole rule of infallible faith in practice the sole infallible rule of faith in practice Shall I say and what we're seeing here is questions and doctrines is trying to whittle away certain things that lng white taught

29:06

Right to make it seem like they fell more in line with christian doctrine But the truth is though is once they did that it made things extremely confusing because without lng white

29:15

And I think this is the point you don't have seventh day adventism without prophecy without vision. You don't have it

29:21

So now we have a foundation that as we can see was not Founded on the written word of god, but it was founded on the visions of a prophetess

29:29

And that's not a firm foundation That's a foundation of sinking sand and it leads to the faith of thousands of people probably millions of people being damaged like you said, uh

29:39

It made it harder for you to hear the gospel because why you you were brainwashed in a sense.

29:45

Yeah, my question would be after 1957 After the questions on doctrine did this create like a like a divide?

29:53

Right where there was people who were trying to be staunchly more conservative and do we see that now? Uh where they're trying to get back to lng wise teachings and then another branch of people, uh that are

30:04

Uh going another another direction That's an interesting question.

30:10

We've talked about this a lot among ourselves because um We deal, you know, especially with the podcast reaching a whole different younger generation of adventists we deal with a lot of emails from people and um

30:25

I would say yes, it fragmented the organization internally to a degree

30:31

It did where we live in southern california is far more progressive and theologically liberal than for example the adventists in michigan by the seminary

30:39

But the fact is there's still adventists in their worldview. They may hotly argue with each other

30:47

And deny certain beliefs, but here's the thing and I think I think this is one of the things that unites them all and makes

30:54

It so that you can't really say there's part of them that are looking that are trying to be more christian I'm, not going to say that there aren't individuals who aren't there definitely are individuals who are wanting to understand

31:06

But as an organization, here's the thing none of them believe in the inerrancy of scripture none of them so without an inerrant scripture

31:16

You don't have a certain and secure foundation And they don't believe in inerrancy.

31:22

I was In my generation, we were actively taught that the bible is infallible, but not inerrant that it literally does have errors because it is

31:33

You know, it's time. It's a little time stamped. You have to think about the way the people understood god

31:38

They were writing about the way people and they were inspired by their thoughts not their words so they wrote it as they understood it and the reason for that was

31:47

Ellen white they still say this was inspired in the same way. The bible writers were inspired

31:52

So if you have a modern prophet inspired exactly in the same way with the same authority as the bible writers

31:59

You can't have an inerrant scripture Because they already knew they couldn't trust ellen. They already knew they had to edit her because she contradicted herself

32:08

So that is like a foundation that is consistent among all adventists Everywhere no matter what their flavor

32:17

Well, no, thank you. No, go ahead nikki I was just going to say too that um, it seems related like you mentioned that adventists in michigan

32:25

I spent a lot of my teen years in new england So kind of where you live in the country will also determine where you land in that fragmentation um, and then you also have people who

32:38

Move away from adventism because they're embarrassed of it because it's kind of an awkward thing to have to explain to people

32:44

Yeah, and then you have people who move away because they have very liberal convictions and you have people who

32:51

Are moving towards it because they're terrified and they have been Traumatized and I use that word intentionally.

32:58

They've been traumatized with the last day doctrines of adventism And so they're not going to let go of the original teaching of adventism, but among all of them

33:07

I don't really know very many who ever come to the gospel I agree in this ministry.

33:13

There are many but But out there in the boots on the ground adventist communities

33:20

Very often they become agnostic so that even with the different views of adventism within adventism

33:27

The gospel isn't there Okay. No, thank you so much for sharing that So what i'm going to do is i'm going to play a clip and I discussed this with you earlier

33:35

Uh, this is a clip later on Uh, and again my walter martin was the you think about too 26 years old,

33:42

I mean who Well think about what what were you doing when you're 26 years old? I mean, this is the first time when you wrote

33:47

I know one of the again one of the most definitive works in christian literature in the last 100 years and again, there's several editions, but the very first edition you're 26 years old.

33:58

I I don't I wasn't definitely qualified to do that for sure So you do have to admire him for his work.

34:04

So this is a bit later on Uh when walter martin, uh all these years later is on the john ankerberg show

34:10

Explain to everyone just the context of this episode episode of the john ankerberg show and then we're going to play the opening

34:17

Segment it is about four minutes, but I want to make sure we give context So people versus playing at the very beginning of the episode go ahead

34:24

After questions on doctrine had been printed which had been printed to put into print and make official what the adventist had told walter martin adventist doctrine was

34:33

The first printing was widely distributed to adventist leaders around the world and to christians in various academic settings and so forth

34:43

Just to try to explain adventism in this new light And but that first printing was never repeated.

34:50

It went out of print and it was never republished And one thing that was really a trouble a troublesome thing to walter martin was that the adventist had promised him

35:00

He had said that he was going to subsequent to writing the kingdom of the cults He was going to write a volume on seventh day adventism

35:07

He had come to believe that people who believed and articulated What he thought these men had talked to him about he thought they could be true christians

35:15

So he was going to write an explanatory volume and the adventist had promised that they would sell that volume on adventism

35:22

In their bookstores, which still exist mostly online, but they still exist and next to the kingdom of the cults well

35:30

Adventists never sold they've reneged they reneged on their promise. They wouldn't sell his book So that was a big red flag to walter martin.

35:38

Where did question son doctrine go? Why won't they republish it? Why aren't they selling my book and besides that? um

35:44

It doesn't sound like they're saying the same things they were saying to me So that was what happened after 1957 and then we fast forward to this john ankerberg show in what is it?

35:54

1984 five around this time Yeah, this time i'm, sorry by this time hundreds of pastors and professors had lost their positions because they were teaching from questions on doctrine and they were teaching

36:07

Some of the things that they had professed to believe now And it cost him their job.

36:12

And so walter martin was getting word of this. He had Lists, he said of hundreds of these people and he's saying why?

36:20

Why are you telling me that you still hold to these truths? But people are losing their jobs over teaching them he was upset

36:27

Yes, he was and another thing that didn't come up in the walter martin thing but which it immediately just actually about four years before preceded it was the debacle with desmond ford and his

36:38

Widely publicized paper which he presented to adventist leaders in 1980 showing from the bible that their core central pillar doctrine of the investigative judgment can't be proven from scripture and so that combined with the wording of questions on doctrine caused many adventist pastors and teachers to lose their positions because You know, they had this this document this old book that wasn't in print any longer sounding like they weren't historic adventists and does ford saying this isn't true and They were starting to write to walter martin and the church was not giving them answers

37:17

Okay, excellent. No, thank you for that details. Thank you for that context So again, i'm going to play this clip and just take everything that colleen said into consideration just bear

37:25

Spare mind this clip is about four minutes long But it's very very important to pay attention because this is going to give context to what colleen just said

37:32

Then afterwards we are going to go ahead and unpack that and we'll have one additional clip we'll play as well, too

37:37

And we'll unpack that as well. So here is the first clip from the opening segment Of this classic episode from the john ankenberg show

37:56

We're glad that you joined us tonight tonight. We're our guests are dr William johnson the editor of the adventist review the official organ of the seventh -day adventist denomination and dr.

38:06

Walter martin Who is well known for many of his writings on the cults as well as the contemporary religious

38:14

Philosophy today in our country gentlemen. We're glad that you're here and I thought that on the topic of seventh -day adventism uh

38:23

Dr. Johnson the man that is sitting next to you in your book that you put out in 57 questions on doctrine

38:29

That was the official statement of the seventh -day adventist denomination to non -adventist to the world in a sense

38:36

There was a compliment to the guy sitting next to you. Namely that you appreciated the fact that when he with other scholars from Uh other

38:45

Non -adventist churches came to you and asked questions you appreciated the fact that he came to you directly

38:51

He came to the denominations and in a denomination and did research And walter i'd like for you to kind of go back as we start

38:58

How did you get into going to the denomination? What was that process and what happened? Well, I was doing research on the various cults of the time

39:07

And I'd written a book the rise of the cults and I received a a letter from leroy froome a top seventh -day adventist scholar and historian

39:18

The man who wrote the prophetic faith of our fathers and other books And he took issue with me over the classification of seventh -day adventism as a cult and I Contacted him back again, and I said

39:31

I was sorry He took issue but that I had quite a bit of information which indicated to me that they were And he said well, it wasn't accurate

39:38

So I went to dr barnhouse who was the editor of eternity magazine I worked for eternity at the time and I said, this is a very responsible man

39:48

And I think we ought to investigate this And dr. Barnhouse said why don't you go down to washington and talk with them?

39:55

But I know they're a cult because I grew up in mountain view california And I met with them all the time out there and they were always giving me the mark of the beast and everything else

40:05

He said you're wasting your time He said don't don't bother but you went I said you went down to washington

40:11

Oh, yeah I went down there and I met with roy allen anderson who was the editor of the ministry magazine at the time

40:16

And the head of all seventh -day adventists ministers and missionaries throughout the world and Then I met with w e reed who was a special consultant to the general conference leroy froome and te unru who had gotten the whole thing started by Discussing with us also in pennsylvania where we were headquartered

40:37

Some of the things about adventism tell us what your conclusion. I came out with the conclusion in 1956

40:43

And eternity magazine Came out with the conclusion That seventh -day adventists who acknowledged the things that their denomination were telling us

40:53

Had to be regenerate christians and evangelicals and could not be classified as a cult however, there were adventists that were on the

41:02

Other side of the fence and we recognized them too. We spent the time down there going over their literature

41:08

Which was a morass of contradictions And materials that could be juxtaposed back and forth either cultic or non -cultic depending upon who wrote it

41:17

We had to go through that with a whole group of scholars and men from their publishing houses and theologians

41:23

To sift through all of the materials and the result of it. I propounded a series of questions to them

41:31

And the series was Later put into the book which you mentioned before questions on doctrine

41:37

It was the first time that a non -adventist scholar And expert on the cults had gone to the adventists sat down with them

41:45

Discussed their theology openly frankly and freely and I believe to this day the men

41:52

I dealt with on the committee and Ruben figure And the theologians who work with us were thoroughly honest men

42:02

All right, uh, go ahead and you gave some commentary prior to the clip kind of giving context

42:08

Give me your immediate thoughts or any commentary on this clip. You want to add in addition to what you gave previously

42:16

Well, I just start by saying um Number one. I don't believe those men were honest history will show the are the annotations and the republished questions on doctrine

42:27

Have clips from letters between these men George knight's own commentary on based on the collection of data that he has

42:36

They deliberately did lie to him. They delight. They didn't tell They didn't tell walter martin the truth, but I would also say

42:45

I think one of the things martin did and I understand why he did it We're always told why don't you go to the people themselves and ask them what they believe don't ask these former ad

42:54

Adventists what they believe don't just go straight to the if you are a false religion you are not going to Tell the truth

43:04

I mean we grew up in a falsehood that we believed was remnant truth

43:10

But you know paul talks in second corinthians 11 about that angel of light and in galatians 1

43:16

He says if we are an angel from heaven come to you with the gospel other than we preach Let him be accursed. There are people there are organizations who teach false gospels that are not true

43:28

And it doesn't matter how sincere they sound And how convincing they are walter martin kind of reminds me.

43:34

I don't think he I mean he was completely deceived I I don't blame him But there was a discernment issue because he went to them and trusted the actual leaders of this group

43:45

And it reminds me a little bit of eve in the garden discussing the word of god with the serpent

43:51

And getting completely off because they were discussing the word instead of her obeying it.

43:57

Yeah You know, there are two aspects to this ministry

44:02

Primarily we want to see people come out of adventism and to the gospel and to know god to know what's true about him

44:10

But we also have a big concern for christians who are being deceived by adventism

44:16

And so when I hear this clip with walter martin kind of my first instinct is to feel protective

44:23

And and sympathy for him because he is sitting there even the words he's using

44:29

Reveals that they lied to him to call adventists regenerate christians. Yes They don't believe in regeneration

44:36

And for william johnson to sit there and allow walter martin to refer to adventists as regenerate christians when he would say

44:43

Yeah, that's not how we understand anything He should have stopped him there.

44:48

I mean Just on that point, but he sat there and allowed him whatever language they wanted to use to accept adventism was okay with them so I I feel protective for walter martin and then

45:00

I also um, I feel pretty pretty convicted pretty certain that he was lied to by the men in the 50s and By william johnson next to him.

45:13

Yeah Andrew what what uh thoughts or questions do you have? about Yeah, i'd have to echo that as well.

45:21

I think uh that they did feed him information That they lied to him about I mean, that's why the john ankerberg show was airing this in 1985, right?

45:30

Because this was Uh, i'm horrible at math. I don't know 38 odd years later or 28 odd years later

45:36

So things had been happening Where like like you guys were talking about calling you nicky that people were losing their jobs because they're actually teaching what questions on doctrine

45:45

Taught and they're like, sorry, you guys actually shouldn't teach that they don't even print that book anymore So walter martin's knowing that all this is going on.

45:52

So what he wants now is like well, what is the truth? I think that even the title of the john ankerberg show for this is called who's telling the truth about seventh day adventism

46:00

And a quote from walter martin a little bit later on Uh from this episode he says this he says

46:05

I fear that if they continue to progress at this rate that the classification of a cult can't possibly

46:11

Miss being reapplied to seventh day adventism. That's what walter martin said So he's trying to figure it out and what we got to remember as well is back

46:18

Then in the the 80s or even in the 50s like we didn't have information the same way we have it today

46:24

So he's going off of what he knows in trusting people But we know that god will sort this out, right?

46:31

if someone is lying, it will be sorted out and walter martin was just trying to be uh, the type of person that we try to be even on the show on coltage we try to If someone we think may be a christian we want to treat them as a christian

46:44

So he's giving somebody the benefit of the doubt right and then he gets taken advantage of in a sense But also he's also very wise

46:51

That's why they're back on the show to try to figure out exactly what is going on And if they are a cult it needs to be said

46:58

Yeah, yeah and i'm so grateful that you guys are willing to do this series because the issue seems to have died with walter martin passing on and so It's the kingdom of the cult is kind of this definitive work on the cults

47:13

And people aren't picking up The issue of seventh day adventism again And I really truly believe that if walter martin were still with us

47:21

And he had seen the publication of their clear word bible. Yes, or he had read the book 28 fundamental beliefs

47:29

And read each of the chapters. He would have had no trouble whatsoever Calling them a cult and speaking of the clear word

47:36

Um, it's very interesting. We we actually associate in ministry with paul carden as I I believe we mentioned this in the first chapter of this program

47:46

He is the executive director of the centers for apologetics research and and paul carden

47:52

Used to work with walter martin He was the co -host of the bible answer man with him for six years

47:58

So he knew walter martin very well And when he met us in 2007, he knew something was off with adventism.

48:07

He didn't completely know it What it all was but he's worked with us and to his credit

48:12

He's listened to us over the years and he he is actually sees but I remember years ago

48:18

He said to us if the clear word had been in existence When walter martin was alive

48:24

He would have seen immediately something was wrong because it's their own bible. It's their internal paraphrase and you know, what's so interesting?

48:31

The man, uh, jack blanco who who did the paraphrase of the clear word and there are many iterations of it

48:37

There were early ones. There were partial parts New testaments books of john different things like that the very first edition of his clear word

48:47

Product which he hadn't called the clear word yet, but it was a paraphrase of the new testament He published that one year after walter martin died

48:55

It was one year after walter martin died that that first clear word came out and the thing with the clear word is

49:01

Jack blanco who used to be the head of the religion department at southern adventist university in tennessee

49:08

He he claims he did it as a devotional help for his grandchildren But the fact is the clear word has become a staple within adventism

49:18

But once again, like with most things adventism Publishes that they don't want the public to understand they call it unofficial.

49:26

Oh, no. No. No, it's not our special bible It's just a devotional help for people's private study

49:31

But if you go to the adventist book center, it is sold as a bible And it is structured as a bible.

49:37

It is it has all the books of the bible all the chapters all the verses But what's unique is that it has the adventist viewpoint woven into every single text of that book.

49:47

So it question then because the one Uh place you think about like a video game where you have to like hit your play you're fighting a boss

49:57

This is just me being my inner nerd is talking right now But you like say it's like and andrew, you know about this all of a sudden like there's like weak spots, right?

50:04

Where you have to hit this point this point to defeat the boss Well as a cultist if the one weak spot you want to go to is john 1 -1

50:13

Uh, or any that's a major area of the deity of christ is do they do anything?

50:19

Uh there or is or any other the basic verses of the deity of jesus or like what? What what are like the big ones that kind of push it into the anyone that goes too far around from your perspective?

50:30

Well their word. Yeah, we do need the third word if you really want the key one. It's daniel 8 14

50:36

Because daniel 8 14 is into 2 300 days and then shall the sanctuary be cleansed That's the kjv version of it

50:43

And that is the key central passage to uphold their core doctrine of the investigative judgment

50:50

In the clear word that verse is not one sentence of about eight to ten words

50:55

It's several sentences. It's it's a paragraph this long in the book And it goes on about to write in the concept

51:03

Of the investigative judgment where jesus enters the heavenly sanctuary and opens the books and cleanses heaven by going through the sins of the saved

51:11

So that would be one of the most obvious but throughout the book throughout the book

51:17

Um, it's not genesis 1 -1 I'm, sorry. It's not john 1 -1 that they alter.

51:23

It's the it's the Text here and there especially in the book of john where jesus talks about himself and his father and he very clearly

51:35

Identifies himself and his father as separate. I mean he'll say you know The instead of saying the father and I are one the clear word says the father and I are so close.

51:45

It's as if we're one so the trinitarian aspect of of Jesus and the father and the father being one and the spirit being just like You know same substance that's all morphed and changed, but it's very subtle And you have to actually know what the real one says.

52:05

So would it be sort of very like pseudo like modalistic? When it comes to with there's not a distinction. No. No, it's more it's more tritheistic

52:12

Oh, okay. It's more tritheistic. In fact ellen white. Um As late as 1905 1907 or 8

52:20

Was writing about the trinity as the heavenly trio and the three worthies of heaven and jerry moon at andrews seminary

52:30

In 2006 wrote a very long document On how the heavenly trio is the correct view of the trinity not the classic christian trinity

52:40

That's current they know adventists that I know unless they've been converted in from christianity

52:47

Um really understands that god that the three persons of the trinity share substance attributes

52:53

All the same they don't they don't understand that I didn't No, no, the doctrine of simplicity was brand new brand new after adventism yeah, and and they will refer to the holy spirit as the spirit of christ and The only way that christ can be omnipresent is through the spirit of christ, which seems modalistic to me

53:13

But you have the spirit being talked about a lot is an it and a force and power

53:20

Because that was the original view of the founders. So then and then the father has a body

53:26

And jesus doesn't have all of the attributes of god. So you don't have the god of the bible

53:32

No, and jesus is not omnipresent and I keep thinking that's one of the most glaring Revelations if you really understand

53:39

That that's one of the incommunicable attributes of god is that he is omnipresent, but jesus they say is not because he has a body

53:48

Wow, wow, andrew, what uh, do you have any thoughts or commentary quickly? if you want I just I just pulled up the differences between we can read

53:55

I can read daniel 8 14 from the esv and then Read daniel 8 14 from the clear word real quick just to give people an idea of how this works

54:02

Yeah, so here's the esv it says and he said to me for 2300 evenings and mornings then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state daniel 8 14 esv clear word

54:12

He answered after two thousand three hundred prophetic days in parentheses, which represent actual years

54:18

God will restore the truth about the heavenly sanctuary to its rightful place Then the process of judgment will begin of which the yearly cleansing of the earthly sanctuary was a type and god will vindicate his people very clearly like not the actual

54:32

Translation of the bible here um But yeah, so that's just a good example really of some of the changes that are in there

54:40

But there's multiple changes with regards to the clear word like, uh, michael the archangel uh, right like think things of that nature with regard to jesus and his

54:49

His deity is is that correct like in jude? Oh, absolutely. Yes Oh, yeah, it's that it is a doctrine of adventism that jesus is michael the archangel

54:59

A lot of adventists especially younger ones don't even know that's a doctrine but it is a doctrine

55:05

And they base it on jude where michael contends with satan for the body of moses and then but says, um

55:16

The lord rebuke you it says Michael was not willing to utter a scathing rebuke to the devil

55:21

But said the lord rebuke you and ellen white made quite a point of saying that that michael was jesus

55:29

But the fact is jesus rebuked satan directly when he was on earth in his human mortal body

55:36

He's the lord. So, um that part alone should disqualify him as jesus, but they have to have

55:44

Jesus as michael in jude because if they don't have moses because ellen white teaches that that's a text explaining that jesus resurrected moses

55:54

And we all grew up thinking moses was resurrected Because if he wasn't he couldn't have appeared on the mount of transfiguration with jesus and elijah if he

56:02

The adventist doctrine is that when you're dead you're dead. You don't exist anymore until the resurrection

56:08

So moses had to be resurrected in order to show up and they go to jude And michael the archangel to prove he was resurrected so he could appear there

56:17

In 70 adventism are angels created beings Yes Yes, in other words

56:25

Yeah Yeah, but do you see do you see i'm putting two and two together you you know where i'm going with this give me

56:34

What do you think about that? in Cultic systems.

56:40

There are very few logical conclusions, right? You have to live with duplicitous ideas You can't think you know in in the bite model.

56:49

They control they they say that under thought control They want to manage how what you do with doubts and what what you are willing to examine and look at and so You have to keep all of these different dueling ideas together in your head and then exercise

57:06

Some kind of willpower to not examine them Right exactly or you're faithless and the way the adventist organization has dealt with michael in more recent decades is to simply say

57:16

Oh, no, no, no. No, jesus is not an angel. That's just a name for him It's just a name

57:24

Yeah, but you know it still doesn't explain daniel tan with michael being one of the princes and the prince of your people and it doesn't explain jude where Michael refused to utter a scathing rebuke against satan, but said the lord rebuked you because jesus clearly rebuked satan, right?

57:45

Uh jumping back to and I appreciate you clarifying that and again this maybe we can explore this further in part two

57:52

Uh jumping back to the conversation, uh with walter martin, uh, and on the john ankenberg show

57:58

What was the name of the person that they that they had selected to be his counterpart on that episode?

58:04

It was william johnson Who was he and why why was he chosen? The reason why

58:09

I asked that good question because I the reason why I thought of that You mentioned earlier that the original people

58:15

That met with walter martin back when he was 26 years old. They were carefully hand selected.

58:21

I would only assume This person was hand selected as well Uh, but yeah, just tell him like who he was and what his why was he picked to be on the show?

58:32

Go ahead well my understanding and you'll have to correct me if i'm wrong my understanding was no one really wanted to do this and um

58:40

William johnson was Instructed by then, uh neil wilson the president of the seventh adventist organization at the time

58:48

He was instructed to go on and just be sweet. Just be nice And talk about righteousness by faith.

58:56

They're going to try to nail you down But just do these things and you'll be able to get through it So there was something about this man that that he thought he could just be sweet But he was capable of presenting this sweet christian

59:09

Mannerism He was the editor at that time of the adventist review, which is the official organ of the adventist church

59:17

And he had also been a professor at andrews seminary. Yeah, and um, I Old testament or something.

59:24

I can't remember exactly what his but he was um, He had a proven track record of loyalty to the organization of Of upholding the doctrines and and keep in mind this is 1984 when in the past four years

59:40

Actually scores if not You know a few hundred Professors and pastors have been fired

59:48

For not standing up for the investigative judgment and for not necessarily holding on to all the unique doctrines.

59:55

So William johnson was loyal He was nothing if not loyal and he knew the doctrines he was educated

01:00:02

He understood adventism and he wasn't going to sell them down the river But he was selected to go

01:00:07

I believe because neil wilson as nicky said he wouldn't go He wouldn't go the president and it's interesting that the president neil wilson that was president

01:00:16

Then is the father of the current president ted wilson who has been president for Uh 22 years, which is a very long time coveted sort of extended things

01:00:28

And he's very conservative just like his father was so there's been a consistent thread in recent modern adventism that's been

01:00:36

Forcing it back towards its roots. It's historic roots. It's honoring of ellen white Wow um, what do you think

01:00:44

I mean if you if anyone's wondering if you type in uh, Walter martin's seventh day adventism,

01:00:50

I think it's the one of the first results you see the entire I think five part series all in a two hour segment

01:00:57

Yeah, it's it was interesting me trying me being on the outside looking in especially with you

01:01:03

No, your vantage point is very unique and distinct from andrew and I It seemed to me as like man.

01:01:08

This guy does seem very kind He seems very sincere and he's doing the best he can to explain, you know

01:01:16

To like assuming the best of the seventh day adventism, but as But as it progressed it seemed to be a little bit more of uh, you know

01:01:26

You think of the current white house briefings? And you know at least I gotta say that honestly if we want to talk politics for a second.

01:01:33

I jen saki I kind of miss her like she was my favorite because you knew

01:01:38

That at least when somebody was going to ask something she was the ultimate spin doctor. She could spin it like crazy

01:01:45

This new gal like she is so cringe. It's like no matter what It's just like she'll try and Twist it or whatever.

01:01:53

It just seemed that as it was progressing it went from being he was really Like repeating, you know the same things over and over and over again

01:02:02

And again, yes walter and john ankerberg, especially even john being the host He was being as gracious as possible saying.

01:02:09

Yeah. Well, you're I think there's one moment where he says He said refer to our doctrines of faith, you know i'm talking about but then john ankerberg says you're touching what he touched uh this this previous guest who

01:02:22

Uh was then fired, uh that was on the john ankerberg show. Um, yeah Yeah, like what do you think?

01:02:28

What was his heart and his motive? Did he? Genuinely believe what he was saying on the show

01:02:36

You mean william johnson? Yeah on yeah who is on the uh, who was uh, who was adjacent to walter martin like did he honestly like believe what he was saying on the show or what do you think he was saying what

01:02:48

People wanted to hear or what's your perspective being? So on the inside outside, uh looking in or Or I would say yes to all the inside.

01:02:56

Yeah inside I'd say all of it all of it. I think that they believe their own lies

01:03:03

Maybe not all of them, but a lot of them. I think that's one of the reasons they chose him and um

01:03:10

In in this article that was written to kind of reveal some of what was going on behind the scenes there's this quote here from William johnson describing what was going on inside him as he was being interviewed

01:03:25

And he said inside I was beginning to boil and this was purportedly a christian television show

01:03:31

Yes, the name of jesus was mentioned along with references to the bible and various christian doctrines

01:03:36

But attitude the spirit of the show was overwhelmingly negative designed to put the seventh day adventist church in a bad light

01:03:44

So he he did not experience What I as a christian see looking at that show.

01:03:50

I see walter martin And I see john inkerberg expressing love and concern and calling him a brother

01:03:57

Adventist and calling him a brother Calling him telling them. Oh repeatedly that they love him

01:04:04

That what they love about him is that he's willing to be there and that he's willing to tell them the truth

01:04:10

And i'm sitting here inside looking on And i'm just my heart's breaking for these men because I know that this means something to them

01:04:18

You know one of the sound bites on the intro to your show you hear walter martin saying that you know, brother I love you, but you're in a cult and I love that heart that's there

01:04:27

But they can't even perceive it because when you start asking questions, they can't answer And all they can generate is this mantra that they've been taught and told to give back to christians

01:04:39

They feel like a trapped animal and and you do get that boiling Sensation inside because you don't know where to go with it.

01:04:47

And so you just assume bad motives yeah, I I remember the moment in that interview where um

01:04:53

They were talking about the teaching in the investigative judgment That a believer's sins are marked pardoned until the end of the investigative judgment and only then if all of them are confessed

01:05:04

Is the word forgiven entered in the books of heaven and then they're those they're completely free of their

01:05:10

Period of probation and the sins are dismissed and put on to satan the scapegoat and I remember walter martin asking william johnson so um

01:05:20

Are your sins pardoned and johnson looked at him and said they're forgiven and wilter martin said but are they?

01:05:29

Which comes first pardoned or forgiven I think pardoned comes for good he says They're pardoned and walter martin says but are they forgiven and johnson wouldn't answer he was caught he looked caught and he said

01:05:43

They're taken care of and walter martin gave it to him. He smiled and said, you know

01:05:48

Okay, okay brother, you know kind of yeah, I remember that I thought no right there you it's it's

01:05:56

It's like a keyhole open that door Andrew what questions what were your thoughts your question when you were observing that video?

01:06:04

Uh, what did you observe and what questions do you have for colleen or nicky? Oh, just just thinking about uh, what was going on with william johnson?

01:06:14

Well, he wrote an auto Uh biography I believe is in 2008 called embrace the impossible and if you

01:06:20

Recount how he talks about what was going on in this interview and you compare it to the transcript of the interview

01:06:26

You can see that he is saying one thing that is actually recorded as being Totally opposite and I find that if you back a cat into a corner uh, those types of things begin to happen and I just wish that there would there would be a

01:06:39

Uh a way to just for for this man to be like, you know what these things happened

01:06:45

And this is how I need to look at them instead of trying to continually save face for uh, the sda

01:06:50

You know, they they put him out there as a scapegoat in a sense and he he got it, right? Like uh, supposedly, you know, he wrote a doctoral dissertation on hebrews 9 and 10 and He says that he says this in his uh, autobiography and there's a great article by the way on lifeassuranceministries .org

01:07:09

That is written that recounts all of this And I recommend as well guys for the listeners here to go to the youtube and type in 1982

01:07:17

John, ankerberg desmond ford and walter ray and then go to this as well to try to get the whole Situation of what's going on here because that's an excellent interview as well

01:07:25

But uh, anyways, he recount johnson recounts this when he talks to martin about hebrews 9

01:07:31

He says just for a few minutes. I found respite martin moved into the book of hebrews soon However, he realized that I was well versed in that area.

01:07:38

So he dropped hebrews and went to a different subject But if you actually look at the transcript on the john ankerberg show, it shows something totally different We haven't recorded the recording is a witness.

01:07:48

That is a grace from god. It says martin says And with the person who wrote the article An older definitive work on tahagia, which is the word there the greek word that they're referencing

01:07:58

Admit to the adventist doctrine of 1844 in the second apartment of the sanctuary and jesus going in there Would they say that hebrews 9 would admit that johnson says

01:08:06

I don't think you get all that from hebrews hebrews 9 martin says Oh, no, not at all from hebrews 9

01:08:11

Then johnson reader is the one who redirects the discussion to the judgment Seat of christ and the only reason why i'm saying that is because you were asking the question earlier jerry's well

01:08:20

What what about johnson? What what is he thinking? I think in his autobiography if you're gonna not accurately represent something in 2008 which was years later when there's already a transcript of this conversation, which

01:08:33

I pray that he must be knowledgeable of that. Uh, There's something going on there.

01:08:38

There's something going on there right Yeah, and if someone's willing to lie about a little they're willing to lie about much.

01:08:46

Yeah And you know, here's the thing and this is this observation is coming from our work with this ministry with people who have questioned adventism danced around the edges some leave and Find jesus and some say oh, no,

01:09:02

I can't and here's the thing if you Have met the real jesus and know the gospel

01:09:10

If you stay where he is misrepresented and mistaught and the gospel is misrepresented

01:09:16

Then you are you are doing great to service. You are you are dishonoring the lord.

01:09:22

Jesus And I have to ask are you really born again? But see that is the adventist question because they don't believe they have an immaterial spirit that's born dead

01:09:32

I mean, I just recently just this last week got an email from an adventist about that very subject

01:09:38

Taking us to task for an article. We have printed about hell Yeah, they don't understand the concept of spiritual death and they will argue and fight against it

01:09:49

Yeah, no, it's um, it's interesting too Just because even for me again who's on the out andrew and I are on the outside looking in this is one of many

01:09:56

Topics where we jump into on a regular basis Just listening to that dialogue on that moment when walter asks are your sins forgiven?

01:10:04

And then he gives that sort of congressional hearing sort of answer. I mean Right, right right away

01:10:11

Um, like my hair just is like my spidey sense just went off. It's like uh -oh someone's you know

01:10:19

Somebody can state something and they may Not articulate it In a way that sounds kind of off, but they're not giving a political answer

01:10:28

They're saying it because of a misunderstanding not a thorough understanding and then miss and then explaining it

01:10:33

In a sort of congressional hearing sort of way Um, and you totally dig that but uh, yeah, this is incredibly intriguing

01:10:42

So why don't we go ahead and do this? Oh, we've gone for a little bit We're going to do a quick, uh seventh inning stretch.

01:10:47

Uh, we've kind of we were going to go this is a part One of chapter two is seventh -day adventism occult.

01:10:53

We're going to on part two. We're going to continue the conversation Uh about this meeting with walter martin.

01:10:59

Also, we're going to talk about uh, seven -day adventism today Versus this meeting then and also then talk to just a little bit about hopefully your ministry

01:11:08

And what it's like with your interactions with seventh -day adventists who are leaving who are active

01:11:13

We're going to kind of get into that as well, too Just so we can get an overview of just everything that you all do on a regular basis

01:11:19

Before we wrap up just tell everyone again, where's the website where people can find out about you? proclamation magazine .com

01:11:28

Okay, awesome. All right. Well, thank you all so much for listening in and if you like this, uh content

01:11:33

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01:11:39

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