January 12, 2023 Show with Virgil Walker on “Did the Civil Rights Movement Fail the Black Community?”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports

legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

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have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener,

with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity

living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensirenradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 12th

day of January 2023.

And I'm so thrilled to have back as a returning guest one of my favorite guests

to interview, and that is no exaggeration or hyperbole.

His name is Virgil Walker, certainly no stranger to most of our listeners.

He is an author and the executive director of operations at G3 Ministries, and he's the co

-host, along with Daryl Bernard Harrison, of the Just Thinking podcast.

Today, he is going to be addressing, Did the Civil Rights Movement Fail the Black Community?

And we'll also be announcing the 2023 G3 National Conference in Atlanta,

Georgia.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my old friend,.

Virgil Walker.

Hey, brother.

It's a joy to be with you and have opportunity to connect with you, and looking forward to our

conversation today.

Well, for our listeners who may have never heard you on the program before, they may be unfamiliar with G3,

we do have, it seems, listeners joining the audience that have never listened

before every day, and from all different kinds of backgrounds.

Some of them are not even Christians.

But tell our listeners about the G3 Conference and G3 Ministries.

Yeah.

G3, the letter G, the number three, it stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory.

G3 is an outgrowth of the ministry of Dr. Josh Bice.

In fact, he had it on your show yesterday and had a chance to interact with him.

The conference, in and of itself, really began here at Praise Mill Baptist Church.

It was a conference that was a theology conference.

Dr. Bice had every desire to hold a theology conference for the local church.

And the focus has been all about the local church.

That ministry, over the course of the last 10 years, has grown and expanded to include a

national conference here in Atlanta, Georgia.

Last year, we brought in somewhere in the neighborhood of about 6 ,500 people.

This coming year, in 2023, we anticipate somewhere in the neighborhood of about 7 ,000 people

registering for the G3 Conference.

It brings phenomenal speakers.

Dr. Voti Bakum, Dr. Stephen Lawson.

We've had Dr. John MacArthur.

Just a whole host of speakers, internationally well -known speakers from around the

country and around the world, Paul Washer and others, Mike Riccardi.

I mean, the list just continues to go on and on.

But needless to say, the conference has become a real staple for those,

particularly in Reformed circles, that enjoy sound, solid biblical preaching, sound biblical

doctrine, and are looking for a place to kind of come, connect with family, friends, and really enjoy an

enriching time of growing in the things of the Lord.

In addition, what G3 does, and really the primary thrust that has been ours for the last couple of years,

has been to launch G3 Press, where we're able to provide a number of

different resources for local church pastors to use.

Books, curriculum, and the like.

We have a website that's full of podcasts, blog articles.

We want to be a resource center that really provides sound biblical

teaching, sound biblical doctrine, that pastors can place in their hands and can trust to

be used in their churches for the growth of local churches.

And so we do this for the purpose of educating, encouraging, and equipping local churches for the

glory of God, and that's really what G3 is all about.

And this year's national conference, G3 National Conference, will be held from Thursday,

September 21st, through Saturday, September 23rd, in Atlanta, Georgia.

I intend to be there again manning an exhibitors booth, and this year the

speakers include Steve Lawson, Votie Baucom, Paul Washer, Josh Bice,

Scott Annual, my dear friend for many years, Dr. James R. White, of Alpha Omega Ministries, who's

created the commercials on this program that you have been hearing every day, promoting the conference, and of

course my guest today is on the roster, Virgil Walker, and for more details go to

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Sharpens Iron radio by using the registration code, the discount promo

code G3ISIR, and we'll be repeating that later, and James White will be repeating that in the

commercials that you hear as well.

I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away.

This is a very controversial theme, but a theme that needs to be discussed, because it involves

so much of what goes on daily, every single day, that we see

and hear in the media, in particular on the news, and this issue is, did the

civil rights movement fail the black community?

You will very rarely hear anybody in mainstream media, even in conservative

media actually, with the courage to actually make a statement

like that, well in this case it's a question, but you can hear the answer to the question very soon, that may upset a

lot of people, and not only liberals and leftists, it may even upset some conservatives listening.

But first of all, why were you so compelled strongly to write the article,

did the civil rights movement fail the black community, and to speak on it today on Iron Sharpens Iron radio?

Yeah, I appreciate the question.

It was a while back that you and I talked, and when we did, one of the things that, I'd

written an article right after the Dobbs decision came out, and if you remember the Dobbs decision was

the decision that said that the federal government would no longer leverage the

amendments, the constitution, for the purpose of protecting mothers murdering

their children in the womb, and that's what abortion actually is.

So there was no longer a federal protection, a federal constitutional right, if you will, to

having an abortion.

I think that that decision was rightly decided.

I think the Roe v. Wade decision was wrongly decided, but the Dobbs decision righted that wrong, and

again, we had to wait, you know, some 46, 47 years before that took place, and millions

and millions of lives of children that have been lost as a result.

As I looked across the landscape of culture, one of the things that I noted, and you and I actually,

Chris, talked about it on the show, was I was watching many in the culture, many in evangelical

culture, who were trying to minimize the excitement for such a decision.

They were trying to say, you know, hey, we need to be temperate in our approach.

We need to not be excited about what's taking place.

We need to kind of dial things back, and so that, in my mind, that was problematic.

This is where you began to hear some of the mantra that, you know, you're not truly pro

-life unless you support life from the womb to the tomb, so to speak, with the idea that

there were, in order to be pro -life, you had to advocate for specific social benefits, so you were hearing this

language, but I'm in the hotbed of the Black church movement, if you

will.

I mean, I'm here in Atlanta, the birthplace of Dr. Martin Luther King, and so I have a front row seat

to a lot of what's going on in Black community proper and, more specifically,

the Black church.

What I saw was absolutely jaw -dropping, and it caused me to write the letter to Black church

pastors where I asked the question, you know, what in the world is going on in the mind of Black pastors when

they're actually advocating not simply to dial back the rhetoric or to be measured in our

joyful expression of this decision, but they were coming to the platform, to the podium, to the pulpit,

to advocate for a pro -choice position.

It was men like Raphael Warnock, who claims to be a pro -choice pastor.

You have men like Jamal Bryant, who has now openly professed that his church,

as he has himself, are now a pro -choice advocating church.

So when I looked at this, I wrote about it in the letter to Black church pastors, and as

I continued to watch the midterm election cycle, and I saw what was happening again

within Black churches, I thought, what in the world has gone on?

And it caused me to take a close look to examine the civil rights movement.

And as I did, I began to find some real questions that needed to be asked and

answered as we examined what did the civil rights movement bring

and what did it change?

And were there ever areas where things went too far in the civil rights movement?

And if you look closely at what's taken place in current culture with the, quote, unquote, new civil

rights movement that's advocating not just social justice, but social justice in all of its stripes and shapes,

whether it's advocating for issues around CRT, social

justice, or the LGBTQIA plus community, there's a

whole umbrella of different ideologies now that have

advanced their cause using the playbook from the civil rights era,

the civil rights movement.

So I think it was imperative, given all of that as background, to take a close look specifically at the civil rights movement

and ask the question, did the civil rights movement actually fail the Black community?

And the email address for all of you who would like to join our conversation with a question of your own is

chrisarnson at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail

.com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And a thought just occurred to me after I made the comment that a lot of

liberals and conservatives alike will be offended by

someone saying that the civil rights movement failed the Black community.

It's kind of interesting why they would be offended because especially

liberals believe that things are worse in this nation.

I don't agree with that assessment.

But they will boldly claim that things are worse in regard to racial

relationships in the United States today than they were back in the days of Jim Crow.

And they will really say that we haven't made progress, that we have gone

backward, which to me is insane.

But it's interesting how they would still likely recoil in anger and

disgust by daring to say that the civil rights movement failed the Black community.

And of course there are exceptions.

I am sure that there are those who are in the ilk of the nation of Islam and other

more radical groups that would agree with that assessment.

But tell us about what you think the civil rights movement, at least

what was declared by its primary leaders, was the actual goal that

they had and where it was right and where it was wrong and why this movement,

in your opinion, failed the Black community.

I want to go back to something you said earlier about whether or not people view things as worse

today than they were in the days of Jim Crow.

And while there are those who are arguing that they are and those who are saying, yes, they are

worse than that time, are primarily Black, I would argue that perhaps they're right.

But the manner in which they're right is that it is more acceptable today to be

racist, to have ethnic animosity, ethnic hatred toward

white people than it ever has been.

And so in that way, things are actually worse.

Now, as it pertains to issues related to Jim Crow, there's nothing worse than truly

political, systemic.

If you want to talk about something that was systemic, the Jim Crow laws in the

South were systemic.

They were systemic to the South.

Here's the thing.

Many, many people who did not advocate were

not applauding Jim Crow laws, were embarrassed by some of that behavior.

Definitely states that were in the North thought that Jim Crow laws were draconian and backwards.

Now, that's not to say Northern states didn't have their own issues to deal with.

But at the end of the day, there was a group of people,

who were embarrassed by, weren't advocating, weren't promoting

issues related to segregation and Jim Crow, though it was indeed, even at that time, the law of the land.

To the question that you asked me about, about how the civil rights movement failed, I think

we have to go back and look at what the intention of civil rights was to begin with.

As it relates to the intention of civil rights, I would argue that really it was

something that was evolutionary.

It was something that evolved over time.

As specific successes began to take place, the ball was then moved

forward for more and more successes.

Now, indeed, there were things that needed to change.

But where things eventually led to really opened the door for a really

backwards condition that our country currently finds itself in.

Let me start with the opening of the movement, which was the civil rights movement.

It began with Rosa Parks, the black seamstress who is on the

Montgomery bus and decides, based upon the Jim Crow laws, that she is going to

refuse to give up her seat to a white passenger.

That begins the movement there, so to speak, in Montgomery, Alabama in

1955.

That system was set up in such a way where blacks were required to sit in a specific place, whites were allowed to sit wherever.

And she just made the decision that she was not going to engage in that kind of

draconian law anymore.

As a result, she, of course, was jailed.

And it begins a process of those who are beginning to

gather and stand against the segregation that was a part of the South.

What took place then was very interesting because this particular incident was unlike anything after

it related to civil rights.

In this instance, black men and women who represented at the time 70 percent of the bus system

made the decision that they would boycott the buses.

In other words, they would leave the buses.

They would walk off of the buses and no longer participate, engage in, or pay money into

that system that was holding them back.

The result was they had to figure out their own way of getting to and from

their places of work and business and wherever they wanted to be.

What they did was they became very ingenious in that they began to pay each other money, the money that they would

have paid on the bus system.

They actually paid in fare to one another and began what I would term the very first of its kind kind

of black Uber system during the late 1950s and 1955.

What you have there, what they thought, again, was going to be a one -day boycott.

They thought that the system would crumble.

It turned into a 382 -day battle with the city, with even

those within the city who wanted it to end because the city was actually losing somewhere in the neighborhood of about $3

,000 per day in bus fares.

Now, given 1955, if you were to exchange that for today's figures, that's somewhere in the

neighborhood of about $31 ,000 per day.

Again, the bus system had a 70 % black population.

And when that walks away, there's a lot of revenue that walks out the door with it.

Black patrons were, again, serving one another, utilizing the economic system within their own community, building

that community up.

And over the course of time, they advanced the civil suit, the lawsuit that

would land on the Supreme Court's desk in the Browder v. Gayle decision that would end

discrimination on buses.

When that took place, what happened as a result was two things.

One, blacks began to come back onto the bus system, which was a good thing.

Integration is absolutely a good thing.

But what it missed, what I believe the civil rights movement missed, was the power that they were allowed to

have leveraging the capitalist system and utilizing their own

money, their own resources to take care of their own needs within their own community.

That component of civil rights was completely ignored.

And what was seen as beneficial was only equality with whites from a standpoint of integration and

where they could sit on a bus.

I think that was incredibly short -sighted to begin with.

But the beauty of even that particular outcome was this.

It was that the United States Supreme Court tested the Constitution, and the Constitution of

the United States withstood the test.

It said, yes, equal treatment is a must.

All are created equal, right, and have certain inalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

As a result, we want to ensure that any law that's in place is in

line with the ideology, with the ideas that are enshrined in the

Declaration of Independence.

We want to remove the barriers that allow blacks to engage in equal

treatment.

So the Constitution stands the test.

But the Constitution, unfortunately for civil rights leaders, was not enough.

They now needed to move forward.

And here's where things begin to take a turn for the worst, in my opinion, Chris.

It's that they began to push forward with legislation through presidential

elections, through government, through politicians that would enact the Civil Rights Act

of 1964.

And what the Civil Rights Act of 1964 actually does is it brings about

a second Constitution of the United States, if you will.

It brings about a secondary role that government now has to play as it seeks

to mitigate the issues related to Jim Crow, to segregation,

to discrimination, and to prejudice and racism.

And what it does is the system that it puts in place is not seeking equality.

It is not seeking equality.

What it is seeking is equity, and that's incredibly problematic.

Amen.

We have an anonymous listener who has a question for you.

The anonymous listener says, I would identify myself as a right

-leaning libertarian, much in the same vein as Barry Goldwater, with the

glaring exception that I am very strongly anti -abortion, which

Mr. Goldwater was not.

But having said that, this is the reason why I agreed with something that one of

Chris Arnzen's guests last year said on this program.

He is a black conservative named Vince Ellison, and he wrote a book called

25 Lies Exposing Democrats' Most Dangerous, Seductive,

Damnable, Destructive Lies and How to Refute Them.

During this interview, Mr. Ellison told Chris Arnzen that he

was very opposed to the civil rights movement's insistence that

those people who were white who privately owned businesses

must have blacks into their businesses, such as restaurants, and

should never have the right to forbid entrance into their businesses.

Now, Vince Ellison was opposed to this, and I am as

well, not because we think that is good or wise or intelligent.

It is actually evil and moronic for businesses to conduct themselves that way.

But having said that, I believe this nation has built within its

constitutional framework the freedom of private business owners

to choose who they want to serve and who they do not want to serve.

And as bad as their decisions may be, which will probably in this day and age make them go out

of business completely if they were to follow those desires, I think that they should have the right to

do that.

Mr. Ellison described the alternative where you insist that a

privately owned business opens its doors to all as stalking,

wherein you are demanding to be near someone and benefit from what they are doing

even though you are despised and unwanted.

How do you respond to that?

No, I completely agree, and that's exactly the direction that I head to

in my piece, which is what the Civil Rights Act of 1964

did was it set up additional government entities

that examined companies, businesses.

It set up the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

It sets up affirmative action policies that now not only interact with

governmental entities who are hiring or examining their hiring practices.

It now says that private industry and private businesses are now by law required, and if they don't,

there can be an action filed within the EEOC office.

And now the bully pulpit, if you will, of the

government gets the opportunity to engage in an examination of whether or

not private industry, private companies are abiding by

what they've determined should be law.

The additional problem that that serves is it sets up affirmative action.

As a response to that, companies don't want to be investigated by government entities, so what do they do?

They establish affirmative action hiring.

People who may or may not, and in most instances are not, as qualified, are able to be hired

mainly on the basis of their ethnicity or some other marker

that the system has set up, whether it's they're handicapped

or they are female.

Whatever minority status is then established is now the required benchmark by which

people are hired.

They're no longer hired on the basis of who's the most qualified for a role or position.

Who's now hired is who has the right skin color, who is the right gender, who

is the right victim group that needs to be hired for particular

positions and opportunities.

That's what I think is problematic.

That's why I say what the Civil Rights Act of 1964 did was it set up a separate constitution.

Now, no longer are we interested in advocating for equal rights, that all of us

would be treated equally, that black, white, red, yellow, brown would be able to apply for the job and let the most qualified

person win.

No, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 says, oh, no, no, you're going to hire someone on the basis of their skin color

because in the past, historically speaking, this particular group had been marginalized.

And that is, in and of itself, racism.

Absolutely.

Every time you're hiring somebody or treating anybody favorably based on the color of their skin, that is racism.

It's the very definition of racism.

By the way, folks, if anybody later on after this live show is over, if you want to listen to my

interview with Vince Ellison, that took place on March 14th, 2022.

And just type into the search engine at the ironsharpensironradio .com search engine,

type in Vince Ellison, E -L -L -I -S -O -N, and that will come up.

Yeah, I had a good time interviewing Vince.

We're going to our first break right now.

It's going to be a bit brief, unlike our midway break.

But if you have any questions for Virgil Walker on this subject, did the Civil Rights

Movement fail the black community, please submit them to ChrisArnsen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnsen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

I'm not sure why our last listener remained anonymous.

But, by the way, listener, if you are a first -time questioner, you have won a New American Standard

Bible, so email me back with your full name and mailing address, which will not be disclosed, obviously, on the

air.

And we'll have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, ship you out a brand -new

New American Standard Bible.

Which, unlike my guest Virgil Walker, is the favorite Bible of his co -host Terrell

Bernard Harrison.

So send that to us right away.

But we're going to our break now.

And don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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On a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the

sovereignty of God.

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We're now back with Virgil Walker.

We're discussing, Did the Civil Rights Movement Fail the Black Community?

We have another listener.

We have Andrew in Brooklyn, New York.

And Andrew asks, Did our reaction to Dr. King's assassination

set back black America for generations for decades to come?

It was a day all of us, even King himself, knew was coming.

So many of the impoverished black communities we see of today, think

Baltimore, became so, and he means by that became impoverished, I assume.

They became impoverished after that weekend of riots following King's assassination.

He also has another question, but I'll have you deal with that one first, Virgil.

Thanks for the question.

It's a complex question.

And the reality is that those who were responsible for

what took place after King's assassination, particularly what took

place in black communities, were blacks themselves.

And so, in fact, most people who had

come alongside King, had advocated for civil rights, were kind of shocked by

what took place in 68 and 69 and thereafter from a

standpoint of the rioting that happened.

And in the mind of the maybe progressive or liberal

white person who advocated for civil rights, who said, I'm for civil rights and fought for

civil rights.

Their thought was, man, we get desegregation happens.

The Civil Rights Act of 64 takes place.

The Voting Rights Act takes place thereafter.

King, of course, is assassinated.

But the thought in the mind of most whites was, hey, we have overcome.

There's a lot that has been overcome.

But as I mentioned early on in our conversation, what you begin to see with the

civil rights movement is that where they landed, again, was not enough and that they were looking for more.

And so after King's assassination, you have these riots.

And the riots do begat poverty.

Businesses don't want to come back to parts of the city where people have rioted.

It's not in their interest to do so.

So, yes, that takes place.

But from 1960 until today, you know, you're talking about a 50 plus

year time frame where I would argue that it was not the reaction to King,

but more importantly, the policies that were enacted as a result of the

civil rights movement.

You know, there were opportunities that were provided and businesses that were examined based upon

federal government mandates and all sorts of affirmative action was in place.

There are all kinds of things that were that were put in place to advance the quote unquote black cause.

But what it did in turn was it created absolute dependency by many blacks

upon government.

And so what would happen is once that government benefit ran its course through the

veins of the black community, they were looking for the next civil rights bill, the next bit of legislation that

would be helpful in advancing the cause.

And Andrew's second question was, was all of the good that Dr.

King did negated by the fact that he and many of his

co -patriots then and now, including one of his successors, Raphael Warnock,

never preached the biblical gospel?

Yeah, yeah, that that is something that I will be arguing in my next article.

Chris, I've got a I've got an article on tab that will that will publish on

Martin Luther King's birthday on the holiday on Monday that will examine King

closely and that will examine his his theology.

And really, it was it was mostly heterodox than it was orthodox, meaning

that he got he got most things wrong.

I would argue that he was not a Christian, but but but be advocated

positions that were antithetical to a biblical worldview.

And when you do that, the Raphael Warnock's who follow him make

sense.

It makes sense that Raphael Warnock would be a pro choice pastor.

Why?

Because King, who was before him, you know, he was one of he was one of the first

people to receive the Margaret Sanger Award, the Margaret Sanger Planned Parenthood Award.

So it then follows generations later that you would see a pastor of a church and I put

pastor in air quotes advocating for a pro choice position, a pro abortion

position, rather than having the biblical framework to stand on to say, you know what, we're for

life and life in every instance.

And I interviewed in 2017, man, it's hard to believe

it's been that long.

On July 24th, 2017, I interviewed Micah Edmondson

on his book, Martin Luther King, Jr.

It is I'm sorry, his biography of Martin Luther King, Jr.

And I titled the interview an open and honest evaluation of his life,

legacy and theology.

Micah Edmondson proposed a theory.

He was honest enough to admit that he did not know if King was truly regenerate and whether or not he'll ever

see him in heaven.

But he did have a theory that King did

after a dark night of the soul experience

returned to the true biblical theology of his youth.

Apparently, according to Micah, King's father was a fundamentalist.

And he believes that an evidence that King may have very likely returned

to biblical truth and repented of his heresies, which were even a denial of the deity of

Christ.

I mean, he denied all of the pillars of the faith, really the virgin birth, everything.

But that King's father never would have invited his son back

to teach at the church if he had not returned to biblical truth because of the fact that King's father,

according to Micah Edmondson, was a fundamentalist.

Now, do you have you ever heard that?

Do you think that there's any even remote truth in that at all?

Not that you would know the mind and art of Martin Luther King Jr. in perfection, but

wouldn't you think if he was regenerate, he would have been shouting that from the rooftops more loudly than anything else he was

saying?

Yeah, I hear.

I think it's a good question to ask.

I would argue, and you've mentioned these things in kind of your commentary, which

are that King—what I do know, I don't know what happened in his heart.

What I do know is what we have from a standpoint of what he wrote.

We have his words.

We have his actions.

We can examine those impartially to determine that King did not believe

in the deity of Christ.

He thought it implausible.

King did not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

He thought that was an impossibility.

King did not believe in the virgin birth.

King did not believe in the second coming of Christ.

King did not believe in a literal hell, and I say these not on the basis of conjecture.

I say this on the basis of King's own writings.

Those were the statements he made in his own writings that we can examine and look at from an objective

standpoint.

Now, what I also know about his father was, yes, his father initially was a fundamentalist.

In fact, King decided to go into the ministry, due in no small part to the

influence of his father.

In fact, his father was a great orator, and as a result, King was an even better one.

I think King had his gift of oratory from a

father who was a pastor.

It's sad to me to see that he would go to Crozer Theological Seminary,

a liberal school by his own admission.

By King's own admission, it was a liberal school, and totally abandoned all of the fundamental

ideas that were a part of his youth.

What I see happening with King's father is less of

him drawing his son to a fundamentalist position and more of the son

drawing the father into a socialist position, into

ideas that are more connected with the civil rights

movement than the other way around.

I'll give you a quick example of that.

Prior to 1960, King Sr. never got into the fray

of politics, never announced that he was advocating for a particular

party or a particular politician.

Of course, during the 60s, as King goes to jail,

primarily because of traffic tickets, he was at a sit -in, of all places,

protesting, and he leaves the sit -in unscathed, but gets on the road, and in the

horrible, racist South that it was during that day, they were looking for King,

and they found King.

They had King on charges that he had not paid traffic tickets.

Now, it was the practice of these police officers to give tickets, like passing out

candy, especially to someone advocating for civil rights in their city.

So King lost track and did not pay this parking ticket.

He was put in jail in Atlanta and was facing some real hard time as a

result.

He reaches out to two people.

One is to Vice President Nixon, who ignored his call.

The second person that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. reached out to, or his

wife actually reached out to, was to John F. Kennedy.

Kennedy placed the phone call to King's wife, his wife who was pregnant at the time, six

months, and said, you know what, my brother Robert has some connections with the jail

systems there in Atlanta, and he'll do everything that he can to ensure

that King gets out of jail.

And so it was at that moment that John F. Kennedy gets King out of jail through

his brother Robert, and the father, King Sr., who had never

validated a political politician or endorsed a politician,

and particularly a Democratic politician, does so in this instance

and uses his very large platform, his very large pulpit, to advocate for John F. Kennedy.

And the result was, within the Black community, a resounding 70 of the Black community

who were able to vote at the time put in their vote for John F. Kennedy, providing for

Kennedy the slimmest margin of victory.

And there you have the flow of Blacks from traditionally Republican and very conservative

political leanings to voting for the Democratic Party, and they've done so ever since.

I set that story up to say that what we witness time and time again as we watch, listen to,

read about the stories of King Sr. and what happens in his life, what we see is King

Sr. leaning more and more in the direction of King Jr. rather than

the other way around.

Now, I can't speak to what happened late in the midnight hour based upon a

confession of faith or a profession of faith nearing the end of his life or anything like that.

I can't speak to that.

The only thing I can speak to is what I see in the writings of King, what I hear in the preaching of King,

what I witness in King's leading of the Civil Rights Movement, which was devoid of anything related to

a gospel proclamation.

And I notice the father moving closer and closer toward his son rather than his son moving

closer toward his father in that regard.

We have to go to our midway break right now.

Please be patient with us, folks.

It's the longer than normal break, and we ask of you to not only

respond to our advertisers, but also send in your questions to Virgil Walker at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back.

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I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I

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I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai, in County Kildare, Ireland,

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Did the Civil Rights Movement Fail the Black Community?

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rights movement fail the black community.

Once again that's chrisarnson at gmail .com give us your first name at least

your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA only remain anonymous.

If your question involves

giving a date or link of the interview in 2017 with Micah Edmondson

regarding Martin Luther King Jr.

Yes that was July 24th 2017.

Keep in mind that Micah and I and also Micah and Virgil Walker

are really on opposite sides.

Of the social justice.

And woke movement battles that are going on in the church today.

I had a very nice conversation with Micah it wasn't mean spirited or heated but

I know that there was some discomfort on his part during the interview and

my disagreements with him are noticeable but I think you may be edified nonetheless

by the program.

Well let's pick up.

Where we left off.

Virgil tell us some more reasons you believe the civil rights movement

should be a part of the community.

I appreciate just picking this up.

And really as I mentioned the Civil Rights Act of 64 was

incredibly problematic.

It was a historic moment in the country's history

for reasons I don't think that everyone really recognizes.

While on the one hand the civil rights legislation was helpful

in ensuring that blacks and whites indeed should enjoy equal treatment

across the board what it also did was it instituted

governmental agencies that looked more closely and provided greater scrutiny

to private.

Companies.

Private businesses and the like.

And that's problematic in fact.

In his book The Age of Entitlement America Since the Sixties it's

author and journalist Christopher Caldwell he writes this about civil rights.

He says quote.

Civil rights at their core were not just a major new element in the Constitution.

They were a rival Constitution with which the original one was

frequently incompatible and would worsen as as the civil rights regime

built their message out.

Much of what we've called polarization or incivility in recent years is something more

grave.

It is disagreement over which of these.

Two.

Constitutions will prevail.

The.

De jure Constitution of 1788 with all the traditional forms of jurisprudential

legitimacy and centuries of American culture behind it.

Or the.

De facto Constitution of 1964 which lacks this traditional kind of legitimacy but

commands.

The.

Near unanimous.

Endorsement.

Of others end quote.

And now what Caldwell is doing in this book is he's establishing the fact that the

Civil Rights Act of 64 provided two separate constitutions and really fundamental to what was happening

was the additions that it provided to federal government the additional federal powers that were provided in

it.

For federal government for example it would establish the Civil Rights Commission in Title 4 of

the Civil Rights Act.

So Title 4 of the Civil Rights Act would would set up the Civil Rights Commission which scrutinizes

companies that receive government funds and their scrutiny can come in the form.

Of some.

Somebody at the company maybe who doesn't get a promotion who happens to be black and they

are and the company receives government funding.

Well that's a problem.

And the Civil Rights Commission would then enforce their rights their ability now

based upon the Civil Rights Act of 64.

To come and closely examine this business.

And that's problematic number two in

Title 5 or Title 6.

Rather hiring practices companies with more than 15 employees were required to embrace

affirmative action.

The Civil Rights Act of 64 also established the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

I mentioned that earlier.

And again.

All of this is far -reaching government federal government intervention into the private

lives of of its citizens.

I agree with with Vince Ellison who said that.

That this.

That what took place in 64 really was the abandonment of any kind of privacy

or private rights.

Or or.

Rights of citizens to engage in their own choices regarding who they

would.

And wouldn't.

Serve in a restaurant and this is.

What.

Now on the face.

Of it.

I think everyone is sensitive to the idea that Blacks.

Were treated equally.

At the lunch counter at.

Water.

Stations and the like.

And this.

All of this is problematic but at the end of the day when government intervenes into a company.

Or to a.

Corporation on the basis of laws.

That they.

Deem.

Need to be.

Abided by and that those entities private though they may be have no rights on

their own to practice business as they see.

Fit.

That's when we run into the.

Problem and it's.

Really what's caused the problems that we engage in today.

We have an anonymous listener who says or asks do you think that at

least this one point the nation of Islam and other similar groups were

correct.

When they.

Said instead of entering into white owned businesses they should.

Just build.

Their own and better businesses.

Well I would say that you know it was it was really.

Booker T.

Washington years before Louis Farrakhan or even Malcolm X.

Came on the.

Scene who was advocating not for the separateness of whites and blacks but simply

given the nature of the country's condition which was one that was segregated given the nature.

Of that.

Situation.

His encouragement.

Booker T.

Washington's encouragement was to create better businesses to leverage capitalistic society,

capitalistic systems, the capitalistic economic power in order to benefit

the people that you are with.

So again what you'll.

Have is you'll have.

Others who stand against this idea say well that was created in Tulsa, Oklahoma

with black wall street.

You know what.

Happened there, the powers that be burned it down.

What happened years later, what they don't tell you is that black wall street, so to speak,

that whole area was actually rebuilt before government

entities came in and really demoralized and depressed a lot of blacks

who were now able to receive better government handouts and better government action than they could

doing business with their own and their own.

Communities.

So that was.

Really the.

Problem that began to tear down what took place in Tulsa,.

Oklahoma.

In fact,.

I saw a.

Fascinating movie and.

I don't know.

How accurate it was to history.

Maybe you have seen it and perhaps a listener.

Could look up.

The name because it escapes me.

But I saw a movie that was.

Identifying.

Itself as basing the content of the movie on true

historic events.

And according to this film, two black men were the inventors.

Of the whole credit.

Card system.

Have you ever heard that?

I have not heard that.

It's very.

Interesting.

Well,.

If anybody.

Listening can.

Look that up, I'd like to.

Be reminded.

Of the.

Title of that movie.

Now, when we get into discussions.

Of these types or of this type,.

Very often white Christians.

Are afraid.

Of speaking.

Up about.

And getting involved.

I'm not talking about those who are professionally.

Involved in.

The media, whose jobs.

It is to.

Defend a.

Conservative.

Position and.

Oppose liberals.

And leftists.

But in.

Your ordinary conversation with people, white people are

very often too timid to speak their mind and they.

Would just rather one of their conservative black.

Friends or brothers and sisters in Christ.

Pick.

Up the.

Mantle and.

Do the.

Defending of.

Truth in.

These areas.

Now,.

Do you.

Have any advice or counsel to white folks.

That feel.

This way and really act.

Out of timidity?

I.

Completely understand why.

There are.

Those who look at.

What's.

Happening in culture and make measured decisions to either engage

or disengage.

I think folks of all stripes,.

Black, white, red, yellow,.

Brown, do exactly.

That.

They look at a particular issue,.

Examine whether or not they.

Have the.

Energy or time, examine whether or not they feel that them speaking up

or their voice being heard will.

Make a.

Difference and make a calculated decision not to speak up or not to say something or

to back away.

I respect their decision to do that.

At the end of the day, the choice is theirs.

However, I will say.

This,.

Things in our culture will not change unless people are willing to

take steps to say things.

That are.

Uncomfortable, to make decisions that.

Go against.

What culture is dictating for us, whether it's issues of the LGBTQIA

mafia, so to speak,.

And what.

They're trying to legislate, or the issue of abortion and the promotion of

what's being called women's reproductive rights in Congress.

Right now.

Regardless of the issue, we all have decisions to make about what we will

stand against, and I do believe there are things worth standing for, there are things

that are worth promoting, there are things that are worth advocating for, and at the

end of the day, the truth that we're advocating is not our truth, it's God's truth, and we have a

responsibility to be a reflection.

Of that.

Now, you enlightened me, or introduced.

To me,.

Something that I didn't know was added.

To the LGBTQ.

Acronym,.

Or.

Acrostic,.

Or whatever you call it.

What's.

IA?

Well,.

That's a.

Great question.

I'm actually lowering the standard, the IA, the

intersex, let me have.

To pull all.

Of these up, because there's actually a.

2S in.

Addition to.

The.

LGBTQIA +, there's actually a 2S addition to that,.

And the.

2S actually stands for two spirits,.

Stands for.

Two spirits, and so,.

With the.

IA, you.

Have.

Intersexed, and with.

The A,.

You have the asexual, the aromantic,.

Or the.

Agendered, so that's.

The.

LGBTQIA +, which would include the.

2S,.

Which stands for two.

Spirits.

What does.

That mean?

You know what,.

Two spirits?

Yeah,.

Your guess is as good as.

Mine. I think.

Every day someone just wakes up and creates some new identity,

new victimhood class, and begins to promote it as

a new identity,.

The 2S.

I'm literally.

Googling what 2S stands for as we speak about this stuff,.

But,.

Yeah,.

It's.

Something along the.

Lines of.

Thinking about a spirit rather than the individual.

This.

Includes the spiritual nature of who people.

Are,.

The two spirits of an individual.

The definition that I found says it's an English umbrella term to reflect.

The many.

Words used in different indigenous languages describing the fluid and

diverse nature of gender and attraction.

And its.

Interconnectedness to community and spirituality,.

And so that's what the 2S.

Stands for,.

Two spirits.

And.

It.

Reminds me actually.

That.

When someone might be horrified.

Hearing.

That you.

Said,.

That you.

Agreed with Vince Ellison.

That the government.

Should not intrude upon.

The.

Ideology and practices of.

A.

Private business.

Owner.

Who is.

Desirous of.

Keeping certain people out of his business, either as customers or even as.

Employees,.

Is.

Moronic and even as evil as that may be when it comes to somebody barring people

for skin.

Color. I.

Mean, that's like an insane reason.

The fact that there.

Even became an issue of bigotry against someone because of the

melanin content in their skin is literally insane.

Before people.

Go too ballistic.

Opposing the.

Idea that.

We are against.

Governments.

Intruding on those decisions,.

Because there are even conservative.

Christians listening who might think that we're crazy and.

Vince Ellison is crazy,.

We have reached a day and.

Age where.

You want to.

Rent your.

Room and your house.

If somebody.

Is a.

Homosexual couple,.

You can't refuse them.

To live in.

Your home.

And the.

Way this depravity and satanic behavior is escalating.

In its.

Acceptance, there is no doubt.

Within our.

Lifetime, and maybe.

Even within.

The next handful of.

Years,.

Going to be those equal protections.

Given to pedophiles.

We are already seeing the acceptance

of pedophilia,.

Not that they are the liberals.

And leftists are saying that it is appropriate behavior,.

If it's.

Acted out.

Upon,.

And if it actually.

Comes to fruition in a physical.

Act, but they are calling.

Them M .A .s, minor attracted persons, M .A .P .s, minor attracted persons,

and this is becoming.

More and more.

Accepted as a legitimate thing, and even some liberal, and even

some homosexual, pro -homosexual organizations are against that,

and they have been.

Vilified.

So this whole thing about government intrusion on not only private businesses but on your home,

it opens up.

The door for.

All kinds of satanic insanity,.

Doesn't it?

It absolutely does.

I mean,.

There's a whole layer.

That this.

Unpacks.

It goes back.

To, and.

We were on a podcast earlier, Chris, talking about the issue of abortion.

And what.

Happened with the Dobbs decision, kind of going back to the earlier part.

Of our.

Conversation.

What the Dobbs decision did was it said that no longer would the

federal government acknowledge or protect or advocate

that women.

Had a.

Constitutional right to an abortion, and that was rightly decided.

Well, what happens in that instance?

In that instance, federal.

Government withdraws the power given to it by.

The.

Constitution and allows each and every state to determine.

What they.

Will or.

Won't do as it.

Pertains to.

Abortion.

What this does is it provides power back rightfully to the states.

It provides what's called state sovereignty.

Alongside state sovereignty, you have.

The.

Sovereignty.

Or the.

Protections.

That are.

Given to us in.

The.

Capitalistic economic system.

That we.

Live in that allow businesses and small business owners to.

Do what.

They desire.

To do.

In their particular jurisdiction.

What happens when they operate in.

An immoral.

Way is that the.

Way the.

System is designed is.

To have.

Economic forces come.

To the.

Fore and.

Turn away.

Business.

This is.

Exactly what happened in the Montgomery bus boycott.

The.

Economic forces of the 70 % of black people who.

Were on.

The buses forced the system to stop and

evaluate what they were.

Doing.

Ultimately it had to go.

Through a.

Court decision which the federal government.

Came in and said this is the right thing.

That's the proper process.

Not the.

Reverse.

Not the government dictating from on high at.

A federal.

Level.

What a small.

Business.

Owner will.

Or won't.

Do.

You should.

Have that.

Right and freedom.

As egregious.

As the.

Idea of not serving someone on the basis.

Of the color of their skin.

Is, you.

Have every.

Right to be that stupid.

My hope would be that marketplace systems would come to bear and you would eventually go.

Out of.

Business recognizing that choices like that are not helpful to your financial bottom

line.

In that way, blacks are not looking for validation from federal government that they are indeed

human beings created.

In the image.

Of God who.

Should be.

Treated fairly.

They are asserting what God has determined they are human beings

deserving of value, dignity and worth.

They will.

Demonstrate that by where they spend their money, by how they interact in business

and that will have a rippling.

Effect in.

Every other facet of life they engage in.

We have Christopher.

From.

Western Suffolk County,.

Long Island,.

New York.

Who says Chris, I believe the movie you were speaking

about is.

A 2020.

Film titled The Banker starring Anthony Mackie and Samuel L.

Jackson.

That's absolutely.

Right.

That is the movie.

That I was.

Talking about.

I found it quite fascinating and I'm wondering how.

Much of it is.

A true story because it is.

Really, I enjoyed the movie very much.

Actually.

So maybe you.

Could look that up yourself.

Virgil and watch it if.

You care.

I will. I will.

Absolutely.

And again,.

We as Christians.

Taking the positions that.

We are.

Taking in this discussion not only.

Put us.

At odds.

With leftists.

But again.

There is.

Controversy and disagreement even amongst conservative Christians about this whole

issue that we are addressing with the civil rights movement.

There are many.

Conservatives who really go.

Overboard.

In the accolades.

For.

Martin Luther King Jr.

And the heights to.

Which they.

Escalate him in their.

Praise.

And in the place of prominence they place him.

There are.

Conservative churches.

That celebrate.

Martin.

Luther.

King Jr.

Day.

In fact, I don't know if I ever told you this,.

Virgil,.

But my dear friend,.

Dr.

Robert J. Cameron,.

Who was.

A black orthodox Presbyterian pastor who is now in heaven with Christ, he

resigned from the,.

Or should I say,.

Pulled his church out.

Of the.

PCA and.

Brought it.

Into the OPC because Tim Keller's.

Church in.

Manhattan, the PCA church, Redeemer Presbyterian.

Church,.

Celebrated Martin Luther King Jr. Day as a.

Holiday,.

As a.

Church.

And Dr. Cameron,.

A black.

Man and also a.

Presbyterian, was horrified.

That they.

Were not disciplined in any way by the Presbytery because King.

Was a notorious.

Heretical individual in.

Spite of.

Anything good that he accomplished by God's common grace.

And so I just.

Applauded.

My dear late friend,.

Dr.

Robert Cameron, for taking such a bold stance on.

That, which did.

Actually.

Rise up.

Enemies from the so -called black church.

At large.

Yeah,.

You'll see that take place because.

Again, you know,.

Anything that's said against Martin Luther King is,.

You know,.

Is an abomination,.

Right?

Speaking against.

Him,.

That's sacrosanct.

I mean,.

You're not to speak.

An ill.

Word of.

King.

And what's interesting about.

That is if.

Anybody reads history, even during the days of King, King had his detractors.

There were people who did not think that the manner in which King was going about the

issue of quote -unquote civil rights was appropriate.

There were.

Blacks on both sides.

Of the issues.

There were.

Blacks who thought he should sit down and be quiet and not create a ruckus in

certain environments and places and spaces, especially when he was the out -of -town guest more

times than.

Not,.

That he was creating kind.

Of an.

Agitating force and not for good things.

So you had those who were on that side.

Of the.

Ideological divide with.

King.

You had.

Those on his left who felt.

Like he wasn't doing.

Enough,.

That he.

Should have.

Been more.

Vocal.

But nowadays, any kind of.

Scrutiny,.

Any kind of examination, any kind of pushback.

Or even.

Clarity about positions that King held.

That in the minds.

Of some.

Are.

Controversial,.

No one.

Wants to hear it.

But to say that.

King was.

Not a Christian,.

You can.

Look at what he.

Wrote to make that argument.

That's not hyperbole, that's not any kind.

Of, to say.

Something out -of -turn.

He,.

As we.

Mentioned.

In this.

Particular episode,.

Denied the deity of.

Christ.

I can't think of.

Anything more anti -Christian than denying that Christ is indeed fully God and fully man and

has come.

As a.

Sacrifice.

For the.

Sins of.

Many.

It would.

Be interesting to see how many years into our future it takes.

For the.

Leftists to start tearing down Martin Luther King Jr. monuments because they

are not functioning according to his main.

Motto.

That we are to treat people according or judge people according to the content of the

character, not the color of their skin.

And you wonder how long it's going to take before even leftists.

Start.

Disparaging.

Him as, I mean,.

Even back then you.

Had, as I.

Mentioned.

Earlier,.

The Nation of Islam, they were not on the side of King's views, and they were

wrong.

On that issue.

They were.

Opposed to not.

Judging.

People.

According to the color of.

Their skin because the.

Nation of.

Islam is all about.

That.

Of course,.

It's anti -white,.

But very.

Pro -segregation.

In fact, they even, at least once,.

And I.

Believe it was twice, amazingly, Elijah Muhammad invited the

founder and president of the American Nazi Party, George Lincoln Rockwell, to speak at.

One of their.

Major events,.

I think it was in.

Chicago, and he had an ovation because he.

Was a.

Segregationist.

We have.

Grady,.

One of our most faithful and loyal listeners, and most generous supporters of.

This program.

In Asheboro, North Carolina,.

Greetings, brothers.

Virgil, I.

Believe that the Civil Rights Movement has.

Failed the.

Black community.

However,.

I believe that if the church.

Had been.

Obedient to.

The Holy.

Scriptures,.

The government.

Would never have had to get involved.

Very few were teaching that there's one race, but different

ethnicities and didn't get involved in calling the hatred that was going on as

sin.

Most of the.

Few of white ethnicity that got involved were liberal in their.

Theology,.

And I believe that helped to lead some of the black churches into bad theology.

Do you see this as also leading the government getting involved.

With bad policies?

Yeah, I.

Think he's 100 % right that this is very.

Much,.

This whole situation is very much involving the wickedness of many

white professing Christians who believed in the Scriptures and the inerrancy of Scriptures who either out

of sinful ideology or cowardice refused to speak out against

the hatred of those of different.

Colors.

Absolutely.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment there that there was absolutely an opportunity for the church to

step in as they witnessed Jim.

Crow and.

Segregation.

In fact,.

It was Bible believers, those who believed that blacks were image bearers of

God who were part of the abolitionist movement that.

Ended.

Slavery.

It would stand to reason that those who were enlightened to the fact that blacks

were indeed human beings who did not deserve to be treated.

In the.

Inhumane manner that slavery dictated, that their ideas would carry on.

Again, it.

Stands to.

Reason that when you have a win like that, the end of

slavery,.

And our.

Country fought a war as a result,.

It stands to.

Reason that you begin to rest on your laurels, so to speak, believing that you've won,.

Believing that.

The battle is over, not recognizing that within the.

Hearts of.

Every human being beats a sinful heart and that the sins of the

past will revisit future generations if the ideas of the

gospel, its proclamation,.

And the.

Importance of adhering to the Word of God are not passed on to.

The next.

Generation.

We have to go to our final.

Break.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the.

Other breaks. If you have a.

Question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Virgil Walker.

James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I

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Welcome back.

Virgil.

We have a question for you from Bobby in Hartsdale, New

York who says, I believe that at one time one of the shining

lights of theological brilliance in this country was the BT

Anyabwile and I have been so distressed and dismayed over his turn

to favoring the social justice movement.

Are you and anyone close to you either with G3 Ministries or your co

-host Darrell Bernard Harrison in any kind of contact with him to see if any kind of

fences can be put up.

Repaired?

The direct answer is no. I have not reached.

Out.

I don't have a relationship with.

Him.

I do know others who have and who do who have tried to convince him to have a different point

of view perspective about his particular positions and they have not had much success

in bringing him into the fold so to speak.

So no, I never did have any kind of relationship with.

Him.

I definitely.

Would not.

Now given where he is ideologically and where I stand on these issues.

Well, the amazing thing is it's a mystery as to why anybody would need to convince him

of the positions that you're defending because he wrote about them and defended what you are

advocating.

His book, The Decline of African American Theology, is excellent.

I've interviewed.

Him on it.

In fact, it was a multiple part interview that took at least two days