January 12, 2023 Show with Virgil Walker on “Did the Civil Rights Movement Fail the Black Community?”

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Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 12th day of January 2023.

And I'm so thrilled to have back as a returning guest, one of my favorite guests to interview, and that is no exaggeration or hyperbole, his name is

Virgil Walker, certainly no stranger to most of our listeners. He is an author and the executive director of operations at G3 Ministries, and he's the co -host, along with Daryl Bernard Harrison, of the

Just Thinking podcast. Today, he is going to be addressing, Did the Civil Rights Movement Fail the

Black Community? And we'll also be announcing the 2023 G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my old friend, Virgil Walker. Hey, brother, it's a joy to be with you, have opportunity to connect with you, and looking forward to our conversation today.

Well, for our listeners who may have never heard you on the program before, they may be unfamiliar with G3, we do have, it seems, listeners joining the audience that have never listened before every day, and from all different kinds of backgrounds, some of them are not even

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I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away. This is a very controversial theme, but a theme that needs to be discussed because it involves so much of what goes on daily, every single day, that we see and hear in the media, in particular on the news.

And this issue is, did the civil rights movement fail the black community? You will very rarely hear anybody in mainstream media, even in conservative media actually, with the courage to actually make a statement like that, well in this case it's a question, but you can hear the answer to the question very soon, that may upset a lot of people.

And not only liberals and leftists, it may even upset some conservatives listening. But first of all, why were you so compelled strongly to write the article, did the civil rights movement fail the black community, and to speak on it today on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio?

Yeah, I appreciate the question. It was a while back that you and I talked, and when we did, one of the things that,

I'd written an article right after the Dobbs decision came out. And if you remember, the

Dobbs decision was the decision that said that the federal government would no longer leverage the amendments, the constitution, for the purpose of protecting mothers murdering their children in the womb.

And that's what abortion actually is. So there was no longer a federal protection, a federal constitutional right, if you will, to having an abortion.

I think that decision was rightly decided. I think the Roe v. Wade decision was wrongly decided. But the

Dobbs decision righted that wrong. And again, we had to wait some 46, 47 years before that took place, and millions and millions of lives of children that have been lost as a result.

As I looked across the landscape of culture, one of the things that I noted, and you and I actually,

Chris, talked about it on the show, was I was watching many in the culture, many in evangelical culture, who were trying to minimize the excitement for such a decision.

They were trying to say, hey, we need to be temperate in our approach. We need to not be excited about what's taken place.

We need to kind of down things back. And so that, in my mind, that was problematic. This is where you began to hear some of the mantra that you're not truly pro -life unless you support life from the womb to the tomb, so to speak, with the idea that there were, in order to be pro -life, you had to advocate for specific social benefits.

So you were hearing this language. But I'm in the hotbed of the

Black church movement, if you will. I mean, I'm here in Atlanta, the birthplace of Dr. Martin Luther King.

And so I have a front row seat to a lot of what's going on in Black community proper, and more specifically, the

Black church. What I saw was absolutely jaw -dropping, and it caused me to write the letter to Black church pastors, where I asked the question, what in the world is going on in the mind of Black pastors when they're actually advocating, not simply to dial back the rhetoric or to be measured in our joyful expression of this decision.

But they were coming to the platform, to the podium, to the pulpit, to advocate for a pro -choice position.

It was men like Raphael Warnock, who claims to be a pro -choice pastor. You have men like Jamal Bryant, who has now openly professed that his church, as he has himself, are now a pro -choice advocating church.

So when I looked at this, I wrote about it in the letter to Black church pastors. And as I continued to watch the midterm election cycle, and I saw what was happening again within Black churches,

I thought, what in the world has gone on? And it caused me to take a close look to examine the civil rights movement.

And as I did, I began to find some real questions that needed to be asked and answered as we examined, what did the civil rights movement bring?

And what did it change? And were there ever areas where things went too far in the civil rights movement?

And if you look closely at what's taken place in current culture with the, quote unquote, new civil rights movement, that's advocating not just social justice, but social justice in all of its stripes and shapes, whether it's advocating for issues around CRT, social justice, or the

LGBTQIA plus community, there's a whole umbrella of different ideologies now that have advanced their cause using the playbook from the civil rights era, the civil rights movement.

So I think it was imperative given all of that as background to take a close look specifically at the civil rights movement and ask the question, did the civil rights movement actually fail the

Black community? And the email address for all of you who would like to join our conversation with a question of your own is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And a thought just occurred to me after I made the comment that a lot of liberals and conservatives alike will be offended by someone saying that the civil rights movement failed the

Black community. It's kind of interesting why they would be offended because especially liberals believe that things are worse in this nation.

I don't agree with that assessment, but they will boldly claim that things are worse in regard to racial relationships in the

United States today than they were back in the days of Jim Crow. And they will really say that we haven't made progress, that we have gone backward, which to me is insane.

But it's interesting how they would still likely recoil in anger and disgust by daring to say that the civil rights movement failed the

Black community. And there, of course, there are exceptions. I am sure that there are those who are in the ilk of the

Nation of Islam and other more radical groups that would agree with that assessment.

But tell us about what you think the civil rights movement, at least what was declared by its primary leaders, was the actual goal that they had and where it was right and where it was wrong, and why this movement, in your opinion, failed the

Black community. Yeah. I want to go back to something you said earlier about whether or not people view things as worse today than they were in the days of Jim Crow.

And while there are those who are arguing that they are, and those who are saying, yes, they are worse than that time, are primarily

Black, I would argue that perhaps they're right. But the manner in which they're right is that it is more acceptable today to be racist, to have ethnic animosity, ethnic hatred toward white people than it ever has been.

And so in that way, things are actually worse. Now, as it pertains to issues related to Jim Crow, there's nothing worse than truly political, systemic.

If you want to talk about something that was systemic, the Jim Crow laws in the

South were systemic, but they were systemic to the South. Here's the thing. Many people who did not advocate, were not applauding

Jim Crow laws, were embarrassed by some of that behavior. Definitely states that were in the

North thought that Jim Crow laws were draconian and backwards. Now, that's not to say Northern states didn't have their own issues to deal with, but at the end of the day, there was a group of people, there were groups of people who were embarrassed by, weren't advocating, weren't promoting issues related to segregation and Jim Crow, though it was indeed even at that time, the law of the land.

To the question that you asked me about, about how the civil rights movement failed,

I think we have to go back and look at what the intention of civil rights was to begin with.

And as it relates to the intention of civil rights, I would argue that really it was something that was evolutionary.

It was something that evolved over time. And as specific successes began to take place, the ball was then moved forward for more and more successes.

Now, indeed, there were things that needed to change, but where things eventually led to really opened the door for a really backwards condition that our country currently finds itself in.

Let me start with the opening of the movement, which was the civil rights movement.

It began with Rosa Parks, right? The black seamstress who was on the

Montgomery bus and decides based upon the Jim Crow laws that she is going to refuse to give up her seat to a white passenger.

That begins the movement there, so to speak, in Montgomery, Alabama in 1955.

That system was set up in such a way where blacks were required to sit in a specific place, whites were allowed to sit wherever, and she just made the decision that she was not going to engage in that kind of draconian law anymore.

As a result, she, of course, was jailed. And it begins a process of those who are beginning to gather and stand against the segregation that was a part of the

South. What took place then was very interesting because this particular incident was unlike anything after it related to civil rights.

In this instance, black men and women who represented at the time 70 percent of the bus system made the decision that they would boycott the buses.

In other words, they would leave the buses, they would walk off of the buses and no longer participate, engage in, or pay money into that system that was holding them back.

The result was they had to figure out their own way of getting to and from their places of work and business and wherever they wanted to be.

What they did was they became very ingenious in that they began to pay each other money, the money that they would have paid on the bus system, they actually paid in fare to one another and began what

I would term the very first of its kind kind of black uber system during the late 1950s, in 1955.

What you have there, what they thought, again, was going to be a one -day boycott, they thought that the system would crumble, turned into a 382 -day battle with the city, with even those within the city who wanted it to end because the city was actually losing somewhere in the neighborhood of about $3 ,000 per day in bus fares.

Now, given 1955, if you were to exchange that for today's figures, that's somewhere in the neighborhood of about $31 ,000 per day.

Again, the bus system had a 70 % black population and when that walks away, there's a lot of revenue that walks out the door with it.

Black patrons were again serving one another, utilizing the economic system within their own community, building that community up, and over the course of time, they advanced the civil suit, the lawsuit that would land on the

Supreme Court's desk in the Browder v. Gayle decision that would end discrimination on buses.

When that took place, what happened as a result was two things. One, blacks began to come back onto the bus system, which was a good thing.

Integration is absolutely a good thing, but what it missed, what I believe the civil rights movement missed, was the power that they were allowed to have leveraging the capitalist system and utilizing their own money, their own resources to take care of their own needs within their own community.

That component of civil rights was completely ignored. What was seen as beneficial was only equality with whites from a standpoint of integration and where they could sit on a bus.

I think that was incredibly short -sighted to begin with, but the beauty of even that particular outcome was this.

It was that the United States Supreme Court tested the Constitution, and the

Constitution of the United States withstood the test. It said, yes, equal treatment is a must.

All are created equal and have certain inalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. As a result, we want to ensure that any law that's in place is in line with the ideology, with the ideas that are enshrined in the

Declaration of Independence. We want to remove the barriers that allow blacks to engage in equal treatment.

The Constitution stands the test, but the Constitution, unfortunately for civil rights leaders, was not enough.

They now needed to move forward. Here's where things begin to take a turn for the worst, in my opinion,

Chris, is that they began to push forward with legislation through presidential elections, through government, through politicians that would enact the

Civil Rights Act of 1964. What the Civil Rights Act of 1964 actually does is it brings about a second

Constitution of the United States, if you will. It brings about a secondary role that government now has to play as it seeks to mitigate the issues related to Jim Crow, to segregation, to discrimination, and to prejudice and racism.

What it does is the system that it puts in place is not seeking equality. It is not seeking equality.

What it is seeking is equity, and that's incredibly problematic. Amen. We have an anonymous listener who has a question for you.

The anonymous listener says, I would identify myself as a right -leaning libertarian, much in the same vein as Barry Goldwater, with the glaring exception that I am very strongly anti -abortion, which

Mr. Goldwater was not. But having said that, this is the reason why

I agreed with something that one of Chris Arnzen's guests last year said on this program.

He is a black conservative named Vince Ellison, and he wrote a book called 25

Lies Exposing Democrats' Most Dangerous, Seductive, Damnable, Destructive Lies and How to Refute Them.

During this interview, Mr. Ellison told Chris Arnzen that he was very opposed to the civil rights movement's insistence that those people who were white, who privately owned businesses, must have blacks into their businesses, such as restaurants, and should never have the right to forbid entrance into their businesses.

Now, Vince Ellison was opposed to this, and I am as well, not because we think that is good or wise or intelligent.

It is actually evil and moronic for businesses to conduct themselves that way.

But having said that, I believe this nation has built within its constitutional framework the freedom of private business owners to choose who they want to serve and who they do not want to serve.

And as bad as their decisions may be, which will probably in this day and age make them go out of business completely if they were to follow those desires,

I think that they should have the right to do that. Mr. Ellison described the alternative where you insist that a privately owned business opens its doors to all as stalking, wherein you are demanding to be near someone and benefit from what they are doing, even though you are despised and unwanted.

How do you respond to that? No, I completely agree, and that is exactly the direction that I head to in my piece, which is what the

Civil Rights Act of 1964 did was it set up additional government entities that examined companies, businesses.

It set up the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. It sets up affirmative action policies that now not only interact with governmental entities who are examining their hiring practices, it now says that private industry and private businesses are now by law required.

And if they do not, there can be an action filed within the

EEOC office, and now the bully pulpit, if you will, of the government gets the opportunity to engage in an examination of whether or not private industry, private companies are abiding by what they determined should be law.

The additional problem that that serves is it sets up affirmative action. As a response to that, companies do not want to be investigated by government entities, so what do they do?

They establish affirmative action hiring. People who may or may not, and in most instances are not as qualified, are able to be hired mainly on the basis of their ethnicity or some other marker that the system has set up, whether they're handicapped or they are female.

Whatever minority status is then established is now the required benchmark by which people are hired.

They're no longer hired on the basis of who's the most qualified for a role or position.

Who's now hired is who has the right skin color, who is the right gender, who is the right victim group that needs to be hired for particular positions and opportunities.

That's what I think is problematic, and that's why I say what the Civil Rights Act of 64 did was it set up a separate constitution, and now no longer are we interested in advocating for equal rights, that all of us would be treated equally, that black, white, red, yellow, brown would be able to apply for the job and let the most qualified person win.

No, the Civil Rights Act of 64 says, oh, no, no, you're going to hire someone on the basis of their skin color because in the past, historically speaking, this particular group had been marginalized.

And that is, in and of itself, racism. Absolutely. Every time you're hiring somebody or treating anybody favorably based on the color of their skin, that is racism.

It's the very definition of racism. By the way, folks, if anybody later on after this live show is over, if you want to listen to my interview with Vince Ellison, that took place on March 14th, 2022, and just type into the search engine at the ironsharpensironradio .com

search engine, type in Vince Ellison, E -L -L -I -S -O -N, and that will come up.

Yeah, I had a good time interviewing Vince. We're going to our first break right now.

It's going to be a bit brief, unlike our midway break, but if you have any questions for Virgil Walker on this subject, did the civil rights movement fail the black community, please submit them to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

I'm not sure why our last listener remained anonymous, but by the way, a listener, if you are a first -time questioner, you have won a

New American Standard Bible, so email me back with your full name and mailing address, which will not be disclosed, obviously, on the air, and we'll have

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New American Standard Bible, which, unlike my guest Virgil Walker, is the favorite

Bible of his co -host Terrell Bernard Harrison. So send that to us right away.

But we're going to our break now, and don't go away, we're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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today and mention Chris Orns and the Vineship Design Radio. We're now back with Virgil Walker.

We're discussing, Did the Civil Rights Movement Fail the Black Community? We have another listener.

We have Andrew in Brooklyn, New York, and Andrew asks, Did our reaction to Dr.

King's assassination set back Black America for generations for decades to come?

It was a day all of us, even King himself, knew was coming. So many of the impoverished

Black communities we see of today, think Baltimore, became so, and he means by that became impoverished,

I assume, they became impoverished after that weekend of riots following King's assassination.

He also has another question, but I'll have you deal with that one first, Virgil. Thanks for the question.

It's a complex question, and the reality is that those who were responsible for what took place after King's assassination, particularly what took place in Black communities, were

Blacks themselves, and so, in fact, most people who had come alongside

King, had advocated for civil rights, were kind of shocked by what took place in 68 and 69 and thereafter from a standpoint of the rioting that happened, and in the mind of the maybe progressive or liberal white person who advocated for civil rights, who said,

I'm for civil rights and fought for civil rights, their thought was, man, we get desegregation happens, the

Civil Rights Act of 64 takes place, the Voting Rights Act takes place thereafter,

King, of course, is assassinated, but the thought in the mind of most whites was, hey, we have overcome.

There's a lot that has been overcome, but as I mentioned early on in our conversation, what you begin to see with the civil rights movement is that where they landed, again, was not enough and that they were looking for more, and so after King's assassination, you have these riots, and the riots do begat poverty.

Businesses don't want to come back to parts of the city where people have rioted.

It's not in their interest to do so. So, yes, that takes place, but from 1960 until today, you're talking about a 50 -plus year time frame where I would argue that it was not the reaction to King, but more importantly, the policies that were enacted as a result of the civil rights movement.

There were opportunities that were provided and businesses that were examined based upon federal government mandates and all sorts of affirmative action was in place.

There are all kinds of things that were put in place to advance the quote -unquote black cause, but what it did in turn was it created absolute dependency by many blacks upon government, and so what would happen is once that government benefit ran its course through the veins of the black community, they were looking for the next civil rights bill, the next bit of legislation that would be helpful in advancing the cause.

And Andrew's second question was, was all of the good that Dr.

King did negated by the fact that he and many of his co -patriots then and now, including one of his successors,

Raphael Warnock, never preached the gospel? Yeah, that is something that I will be arguing in my next article,

Chris. I've got an article on tap that will publish on Martin Luther King's birthday on the holiday on Monday that will examine

King closely and that will examine his theology, and really it was mostly heterodox than it was orthodox, meaning that he got most things wrong.

I would argue that he A, was not a Christian, but B, advocated positions that were antithetical to a biblical worldview, and when you do that, the

Raphael Warnocks who follow him make sense. It makes sense that Raphael Warnock would be a pro -choice pastor.

Why? Because King, who was before him, he was one of the first people to receive the

Margaret Sanger Award, the Margaret Sanger Planned Parenthood Award. So it then follows generations later that you would see a pastor of a church, and I put pastor in air quotes, advocating for a pro -choice position, a pro -abortion position, rather than having the biblical framework to stand on to say, you know what, we're for life and life in every instance.

And I interviewed in 2017. Man, it's hard to believe it's been that long.

It's six years ago. On July 24th, 2017, I interviewed

Micah Edmondson on his book, Martin Luther King Jr.,

I'm sorry, his biography of Martin Luther King Jr., and I titled the interview an open and honest evaluation of his life legacy in theology.

Micah Edmondson proposed a theory. He was honest enough to admit that he did not know if King was truly regenerate and whether or not he'll ever see him in heaven.

But he did have a theory that King did, after a dark night of the soul experience, returned to the true biblical theology of his youth.

Apparently, according to Micah, King's father was a fundamentalist, and he believes that an evidence that King may have very likely returned to biblical truth and repented of his heresies, which were even a denial of the deity of Christ.

I mean, he denied all of the pillars of the faith, really, the virgin birth, everything. But that King's father never would have invited his son back to teach at the church if he had not returned to biblical truth because of the fact that King's father, according to Micah Edmondson, was a fundamentalist.

Now, have you ever heard that? Do you think that there's any even remote truth in that at all?

Not that you would know the mind and art of Martin Luther King Jr. in perfection, but wouldn't you think if he was regenerate, he would have been shouting that from the rooftops more loudly than anything else he was saying?

Yeah, I hear. I think it's a good question to ask. I would argue, and you've mentioned these things in kind of your commentary, which are that King—what I do know,

I don't know what happened in his heart. What I do know is what we have from a standpoint of what he wrote.

We have his words. We have his actions. We can examine those impartially to determine that King did not believe in the deity of Christ.

He thought it implausible. King did not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

He thought that was an impossibility. King did not believe in the virgin birth. King did not believe in the second coming of Christ.

King did not believe in a literal hell, and I say these not on the basis of conjecture.

I say this on the basis of King's own writings. Those were the statements he made in his own writings that we can examine and look at from an objective standpoint.

Now, what I also know about his father was, yes, his father initially was a fundamentalist. In fact,

King decided to go into the ministry, doing no small part to the influence of his father.

In fact, his father was a great orator, and as a result, King was an even better one. I think

King learned—had his gift of oratory from a father who was a pastor.

It's sad to me to see that he would go to Crozier Theological Seminary, a liberal school by his own admission, and by King's own admission, it was a liberal school, and totally abandon all of the fundamental ideas that were a part of his youth.

What I see happening with King's father is less of him drawing his son to a fundamentalist position and more of the son drawing the father into a more socialist position, into ideas that are more connected with the civil rights movement than the other way around.

I'll give you a quick example of that, and that was, prior to 1960,

King Sr. never got into the fray of politics, never announced that he was advocating for a particular party or a particular politician.

Of course, during the 60s, as King goes to jail, primarily because of traffic tickets, actually, he was at a sit -in, of all places, protesting, and he leaves the sit -in unscathed, but gets on the road, and in the horrible, racist

South that it was during that day, they were looking for King, and they found King—they had

King on charges that he had not paid traffic tickets. Now, it was the practice of these police officers to give tickets, like passing out candy, especially to someone advocating for civil rights in their city, so King lost track and did not pay this parking ticket.

Well, he was put in jail in Atlanta and was facing some real hard time as a result.

He reaches out to two people. One is to Vice President Nixon, who ignored his call.

The second person that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. reached out to, or his wife actually reached out to, was to John F.

Kennedy. Kennedy placed the phone call to King's wife, his wife, who was pregnant at the time, six months, and said, you know what, my brother

Robert has some connections with the jail systems there in Atlanta, and he'll do everything that he can to ensure that King gets out of jail.

So it was at that moment that John F. Kennedy gets King out of jail through his brother

Robert, and the father, King Sr., who had never validated a political politician or endorsed a politician, and particularly a

Democratic politician, does so in this instance and uses his very large platform, his very large pulpit, to advocate for John F.

Kennedy. And the result was, within the Black community, a resounding 70 % of the

Black community who were able to vote at the time put in their vote for John F.

Kennedy, providing for Kennedy the slimmest margin of victory. And there you have the flow of Blacks from traditionally

Republican and very conservative political leanings to voting for the

Democratic Party, and they've done so ever since. I set that story up to say that what we witness time and time again as we watch, listen to, read about the stories of King Sr.

and what happens in his life, what we see is King Sr. leaning more and more in the direction of King Jr.

rather than the other way around. Now I can't speak to what happened late in the confession of faith or profession of faith nearing the end of his life or anything like that.

I can't speak to that. The only thing I can speak to is what I see in the writings of King, what I hear in the preaching of King, what

I witness in King's leading of the civil rights movement, which was devoid of anything related to a gospel proclamation.

And I notice the father moving closer and closer toward his son rather than his son moving closer toward his father in that regard.

We have to go to our midway break right now. Please be patient with us, folks. It's the longer than normal break, and we ask of you to not only respond to our advertisers, but also send in your questions to Virgil Walker at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, the 23rd, on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Ottawa in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the reformrookie .com

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Before I return to my guest Virgil Walker and our discussion on did the

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and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Virgil Walker on did the civil rights movement fail the black community.

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Cindy in Findlay, Ohio says, can you give a date or link of the interview in 2017 with Micah Edmondson regarding Martin Luther King Jr.?

Yes, that was July 24th, 2017. Keep in mind that Micah and I, and also

Micah and Virgil Walker, are really on opposite sides of the social justice and woke movement battles that are going on in the church today.

I had a very nice conversation with Micah. It wasn't mean -spirited or heated, but I know that there was some discomfort on his part during the interview, and my disagreements with him are noticeable, but I think you may be edified nonetheless by the program.

Well, let's pick up where we left off, Virgil. Tell us some more reasons you believe the civil rights movement failed the black community.

Yeah, I appreciate just picking this up, and really, as I mentioned, I think that the

Civil Rights Act of 64 was incredibly problematic. It was a historic moment in the country's history for reasons

I don't think that everyone really recognizes. While on the one hand, the civil rights legislation was helpful in really saying that blacks and whites indeed should enjoy equal treatment across the board, what it also did was it instituted governmental agencies that looked more closely and provided greater scrutiny to private companies, private businesses, and the like, and that's problematic.

In fact, in his book, The Age of Entitlement, America Since the

Sixties, it's author and journalist Christopher Caldwell, he writes this about civil rights.

He says, quote, civil rights at their core were not just a major new element in the constitution.

They were a rival constitution with which the original one was frequently incompatible and would worsen as the civil rights regime built their message out.

Much of what we've called polarization or incivility in recent years is something more grave.

It is disagreement over which of these two constitutions will prevail.

The de jure constitution of 1788, with all the traditional forms of jurisprudential legitimacy and centuries of American culture behind it, or the de facto constitution of 1964, which lacks this traditional kind of legitimacy, but commands the near unanimous endorsement of others, end quote.

Now, what Caldwell is doing in this book is he's establishing the fact that the

Civil Rights Act of 64 provided two separate constitutions. Really fundamental to what was happening was the additions that it provided to federal government, the additional federal powers that were provided in it for federal government.

For example, it would establish the Civil Rights Commission in Title IV of the

Civil Rights Act. So, Title IV of the Civil Rights Act would set up the Civil Rights Commission, which scrutinizes companies that receive government funds.

Their scrutiny can come in the form of somebody at the company maybe who doesn't get a promotion, who happens to be

Black, and the company receives government funding.

Well, that's a problem, and the Civil Rights Commission would then enforce their rights, their ability now based upon the

Civil Rights Act of 64 to come and closely examine this business, and that's problematic.

Number two, in Title V or Title VI, rather, hiring practices of companies with more than 15 employees were required to embrace affirmative action.

The Civil Rights Act of 64 also established the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. I mentioned that earlier, and again, all of this is far -reaching government, federal government intervention into the private lives of its citizens.

I agree with Vince Ellison, who said that what took place in 64 really was the abandonment of any kind of privacy or private rights or rights of citizens to engage in their own choices regarding who they would and wouldn't serve in a restaurant.

Now, on the face of it, I think everyone is sensitive to the idea that Blacks were treated in equally at the lunch counter, at water stations, and the like.

All of this is problematic, but at the end of the day, when government intervenes into a company or to a corporation on the basis of laws that they deem need to be abided by and that those entities, private though they may be, have no rights on their own to practice business as they see fit, that's when we run into the problem, and it's really what's caused the problems that we engage in today.

We have an anonymous listener who says or asks, do you think that at least this one point, the

Nation of Islam and other similar groups were correct when they said instead of entering into white -owned businesses, they should just build their own and better businesses?

Well, I would say that it was really Booker T. Washington years before Louis Farrakhan or even

Malcolm X came on the scene who was advocating not for the separateness of whites and Blacks, but simply given the nature of the country's condition, which was one that was segregated.

Given the nature of that situation, his encouragement, Booker T. Washington's to create better businesses, to leverage capitalistic society, capitalistic systems, the capitalistic economic power in order to benefit the people that you're with.

And so, again, what you'll have is you'll have others who stand against this idea, say, well, that was created in Tulsa, Oklahoma with Black Wall Street, and you know what happened there?

The powers that be burned it down. Well, what happened years later, what they don't tell you is that Black Wall Street, so to speak, that whole area was actually rebuilt before government entities came in and really demoralized and depressed a lot of Blacks who were now able to receive better government handouts and better government action than they could doing business with their own and their own communities.

And so that was really the problem that began to tear down what took place in Tulsa, Oklahoma. In fact, you know,

I saw a fascinating movie, and I don't know how accurate it was to history.

Maybe you have seen it, and perhaps we'll look it up, or a listener perhaps could look up the name because it escapes me.

But I saw a movie that was depicting, it was identifying itself as, you know, basing the content of the movie on true historic events.

And according to this film, two Black men were the inventors of the whole credit card system.

Have you ever heard that? I have not heard that. It's very interesting. Well, if anybody listening can look that up,

I'd like to be reminded of the title of that movie.

Now, when we get into discussions of these types, or of this type, very often white

Christians are afraid of speaking up and getting involved.

I'm not talking about those who are professionally involved in the media, whose jobs it is to defend a conservative position and oppose liberals and leftists.

But in your ordinary conversation with people, white people are very often too timid to speak their mind, and they would just rather one of their conservative

Black friends or brothers and sisters in Christ pick up the mantle and do the defending of truth in these areas.

Now, do you have any advice or counsel to white folks that feel this way and really act out of timidity?

Yeah, you know, I completely understand why there are those who look at what's in culture and make measured decisions to either engage or disengage.

I think folks of all stripes, Black, white, red, yellow, brown, do exactly that. They look at a particular issue, examine whether or not they have the energy or time, examine whether or not they feel that them speaking up or their voice being heard will indeed make a difference, and make a calculated decision not to speak up or not to say something or to back away.

And I respect their decision to do that. At the end of the day, the choice is theirs.

However, I will say this. Things in our culture will not change unless people are willing to take steps to say things that are uncomfortable, to make decisions that go against what culture is dictating for us, whether it's issues of the

LGBTQIA mafia, so to speak, and what they're trying to legislate, or the issue of abortion and the promotion of what's being called women's reproductive rights in Congress right now.

Regardless of the issue, we all have decisions to make about what we will stand against.

And I do believe there are things worth standing for. There are things that are worth promoting.

There are things that are worth advocating for. And at the end of the day, the truth that we're advocating is not our truth.

It's God's truth, and we have a responsibility to be a reflection of that. Now, you enlightened me or introduced to me something that I didn't know was added to the

LGBTQ acronym or acrostic or whatever you call it.

What's IA? Well, that's a great question. I'm actually lowering the standard, the

IA, the intersex. I'm going to have to pull all of these up because there's actually a 2S in addition to the

LGBTQIA+. There's actually a 2S addition to that, and the 2S actually stands for two spirits, stands for two spirits.

And so with the IA, you have intersexed, and with the A, you have the asexual, the aromantic, or the agendered.

So that's the LGBTQIA +, which would include the 2S, which stands for two spirits.

What does that mean? You know what, Chris? Two spirits?

Yeah, your guess is as good as mine. I think every day someone just wakes up and creates some new identity, a new victimhood class, and begins to promote it as a result.

And so you've got the 2S. I'm literally Googling what 2S stands for as we speak about this stuff.

But yeah, it's something along the lines of thinking about a spirit rather than the individual.

This includes the spiritual nature of who people are, the two spirits of an individual.

The definition that I found says it's an English umbrella term to reflect the many words used in different Indigenous languages describing the fluid and diverse nature of gender and attraction and its interconnectedness to community and spirituality.

And so that's what the 2S stands for, two spirits. And it reminds me actually that when someone might be horrified hearing that you said that you agreed with Vince Ellison that the government should not intrude upon the ideology and practices of a private business owner who is desirous of keeping certain people out of his business, either as customers or even as employees, as moronic and even as evil as that may be, when it comes to somebody barring people for skin color.

I mean, that's like an insane reason. The fact that there even became an issue of bigotry against someone because of the melanin content in their skin is literally insane.

But before people go too ballistic, opposing the idea that we are against governments intruding on those decisions, because there are even conservative

Christians listening who might think that we're crazy and Vince Ellison is crazy, we have reached a day and age where you want to rent your room and your house.

If somebody's a homosexual couple, you can't refuse them to live in your home.

And the way this depravity and satanic behavior is escalating in its acceptance, there is no doubt within our lifetime, and maybe even within the next handful of years, going to be those equal protections given to pedophiles.

We are already seeing the acceptance of pedophilia, not that the liberals and leftists are saying that it is appropriate behavior if it's acted out upon and if it actually comes to fruition in a physical act, but they are calling them

MAPs, Minor Attracted Persons. And this is becoming more and more accepted as a legitimate thing.

And even some pro -homosexual organizations are against that, and they have been vilified.

So this whole thing about government intrusion on not only private businesses but on your home, it opens up the door for all kinds of satanic insanity, doesn't it?

It absolutely does. I mean, there's a whole layer that this unpacks.

It goes back to, and we were on a podcast earlier, Chris, talking about the issue of abortion and what happened with the

Dobbs decision, kind of going back to the earlier part of our conversation. What the

Dobbs decision did was it said that no longer would the federal government acknowledge or protect or advocate that women had a constitutional right to an abortion.

And that was rightly decided. Well, what happens in that instance? In that instance, federal government withdraws the power given to it by the

Constitution and allows each and every state to determine, the state's rights are now in play, each and every state to determine what they will or won't do as it pertains to abortion.

What this does is it provides power back rightfully to the states.

It provides what's called state sovereignty. Alongside state sovereignty, you have the sovereignty or the protections that are given to us in the capitalistic economic system that we live in, that allow businesses and business owners, small business owners, to do what they desire to do in their particular area or jurisdiction.

And what happens when they operate in an immoral way is that the way that the system is designed is to have economic forces come to the fore and turn away business.

This is exactly what happened in the Montgomery bus boycott. The economic forces of the 70 % of Black people who were on those buses, who walked away from the buses, forced the system to stop and evaluate what they were doing.

Ultimately, it had to go through a court decision, which the federal government came in and said, this is the right thing.

But that's the proper process. That's the proper process, not the reverse, not the government dictating from on high and at a federal level what you, a small business owner, a private business owner, will or won't do in your own business.

You should be able to have that right and freedom. As egregious, as horrific as the idea of not serving someone on the basis of the color of their skin is, you have every right as a business owner to be that stupid.

You have every right as a business owner to be that immoral in your business practice.

My hope would be that marketplace systems would come to bear and that you would eventually go out of business recognizing that choices like that are not helpful to your financial bottom line.

But in that way, Blacks are not looking for validation from federal government that they are indeed human beings created in the image of God who should be treated fairly.

What they're doing is they're asserting what God has already determined, that they are human beings who are deserving of distinct value, dignity, and worth.

They're spending their money by how they interact in business and that's going to have a rippling effect in every other facet of life that they engage in.

We have Christopher from Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, Chris, I believe the movie you are, were speaking about is a 2020 film titled

The Banker starring Anthony Mackie and Samuel L. Jackson.

That's absolutely right. That is the movie that I was talking about. I found it quite fascinating and I'm wondering how much of it is a true story because it is really,

I enjoyed the movie very much actually. So maybe you could look that up yourself, Virgil, and watch it if you care.

I will, I will, absolutely. And again, we as as Christians taking the positions that we are taking in this discussion, not only put us at odds with leftists, but again, there is controversy and disagreement even amongst conservative

Christians about this whole issue that we are addressing with the civil rights movement.

There are many conservatives who really go overboard in the accolades for Martin Luther King Jr.

and the heights to which they escalate him in their praise and in the place of prominence they place him.

There are conservative churches that celebrate Martin Luther King Jr.

Day. In fact, I don't know if I ever told you this, Virgil, but my dear friend, Dr. Robert J. Cameron, who was a black orthodox

Presbyterian pastor who is now in heaven with Christ, he resigned from the, or should

I say, pulled his church out of the PCA and brought it into the OPC because Tim Keller's church in Manhattan, the

PCA church, Redeemer Presbyterian Church, celebrated Martin Luther King Jr. Day as a holiday, as a church.

And Dr. Cameron, a black man and also a

Presbyterian, was horrified that they were not disciplined in any way by the

Presbytery because King was a notorious, heretical individual in spite of anything good that he accomplished by God's common grace.

And so I applauded my dear late friend,

Dr. Robert Cameron, for taking such a bold stance on that, which did actually rise up enemies from the so -called black church at large.

Yeah, you'll see that take place because, again, anything that's said against Martin Luther King is an abomination, right?

It's speaking against him, that's sacrosanct. I mean, it is, you're not to speak an ill word of King.

And what's interesting about that is if anybody reads history, even during the days of King, King had his detractors.

There were people who did not think that the manner in which King was going about the issue of quote -unquote civil rights was appropriate.

There were blacks on both sides of the issues. There were blacks who thought he should sit down and be quiet and not create a ruckus in certain environments and places and spaces, especially when he was the out -of -town guest more times than not, that he was creating kind of an agitating force and not for good things.

So you had those who were on that side of the ideological divide with King. You had those on his left who felt like he wasn't doing enough, that he should have been more vocal.

But nowadays, any kind of scrutiny, any kind of examination, any kind of pushback or even clarity about positions that King held that in the minds of some are controversial, no one wants to hear it.

To say that King was not a Christian, you can look at what he wrote to make that argument.

And that's not hyperbole. That's not any kind of, you know, to say something out of turn.

He indeed, as we mentioned in this particular episode, denied the deity of Christ. I can't think of anything more anti -Christian than denying that Christ is indeed fully

God and fully man and has come as a sacrifice for the sins of many. It'd be interesting to see how many years into our future it takes for the leftists to start tearing down Martin Luther King Jr.

monuments because they are not functioning according to his main motto that we are to treat people according or judge people according to the content of the character, not the color of their skin.

And you wonder how long it's going to take before even leftists start disparaging him.

I mean, even back then you had, as I mentioned earlier, the

Nation of Islam, they were not on the side of King's views. And they were wrong on that issue of being, they were opposed to not judging people according to the color of their skin, because the

Nation of Islam is all about that. Of course, it's anti -white, but very pro -segregation.

In fact, they even, at least once, and I believe it was twice, amazingly,

Elijah Muhammad invited the founder and president of the American Nazi Party, George Lincoln Rockwell, to speak at one of their major events.

I think it was in Chicago. And he had an ovation because he was a segregationist.

We have Grady, one of our most faithful and loyal listeners and most generous supporters of this program in Asheboro, North Carolina.

Greetings, Brothers Virgil. I believe that the However, I believe that if the church had been obedient to the

Holy Scriptures, the government would never have had to get involved. Very few were teaching that there's one race, but different ethnicities, and didn't get involved in calling the hatred that was going on as sin.

Most of the few of white ethnicity that got involved were liberal in their theology, and I believe that helped to lead some of the black churches into bad theology.

Do you see this as also leading the government getting involved with bad policies?

Yeah, I think he's 100 % right. This whole situation is very much involving the wickedness of many white professing

Christians who believed in the Scriptures and the inerrancy of Scriptures, who either out of sinful ideology or cowardice refused to speak out against the hatred of those of different colors.

Absolutely. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment there that there was absolutely an opportunity for the church to step in as they witnessed

Jim Crow and segregation. In fact, it was Bible believers, those who believed that blacks were image bearers of God, who were part of the abolitionist movement that ended slavery.

It would stand to reason that those who were enlightened to the fact that blacks were indeed human beings who did not deserve to be treated in the inhumane manner that slavery dictated, that their ideas would carry on.

Again, it kind of stands to reason that when you have a like that, the wind being the end of slavery, and our country fought a war as a result, it stands to reason that you begin to kind of rest on your laurels, so to speak, believing that you've won, believing that the battle is over, not recognizing that within the hearts of every human being beats a sinful heart, and that the sins of the past will revisit future generations if the ideas of the gospel, its proclamation, and the importance of adhering to the

Word of God are not passed on to the next generation. We have to go to our final break.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks. If you have a question, send it in immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Virgil Walker.

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Virgil. We have a question for you from Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says,

I believe that at one time one of the shining lights of theological brilliance in this country was the

Bt Anyabwile, and I have been so distressed and dismayed over his turn to favoring the social justice movement.

Are you and anyone close to you, either with G3 Ministries or your co -host

Daryl Bernard Harrison, in any kind of contact with him to see if any kind of fences can be repaired?

Yeah, the direct answer is no, have not reached out. I don't have a relationship with him.

I do know others who have and who do, who have tried to convince him to have a different point of view, perspective, about his particular positions, and they have not had much success in bringing him into the fold, so to speak.

So no, I never did have any kind of relationship with him. I definitely wouldn't now, given where he is ideologically and where I stand on these issues.

Well, the amazing thing is, it's a mystery as to why anybody would need to convince him of the positions you're defending, because he wrote about them and defended what you are advocating.

His book, The Decline of African American Theology, is excellent.

I've interviewed him on it. In fact, it was a multiple -part interview that took at least two days, and he was saying the same thing you are.

He actually laid the blame at the feet of not only the civil rights movement, but even the abolitionist movement when it became secularized for the decline of African American theology, and I don't think he would ever say that publicly today, even though I don't think he's discredited his own book yet, though.

Yeah, I doubt it. Do you still have those interviews, Chris? Yes, I can email it to you. If you would, that would be wonderful.

As soon as I'm off the air, I will email that to you. Well, if you could, in a couple of minutes, summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds today in regard to our subject.

Yeah, in regard to our subject particularly, my parting shot would be that, given the nature of the anti -Christian movement that was, indeed, civil rights, there's no movement that's going to take place that has any lasting positive impact apart from the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Anytime you separate the gospel, anytime you separate the good news of Christ and him crucified from some idea or ideology, you're absolutely losing.

And so, for anyone listening, if they have not repented of sin and placed their full faith in Jesus Christ, recognizing that he came and lived a perfect life, died a death he did not deserve on a

Roman cross, all for the purpose of paying a ransom for those of us who have sinned and all have sinned, scripture's clear, and fallen short of the glory of God.

And the reality is that all of us who call upon the name of the Lord can and will be saved.

And so, it's imperative that we understand the message of the good news of God, the good news that Christ came and did what we could not do in paying that full penalty.

And, again, repentance and faith in Christ and his finished work is the key to life here and now and everlasting.

Okay, well, Virgil, you were absolutely extraordinary, as you always are on this program.

I look forward to you coming back. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, aren't we going to be doing at least one interview a month leading up until G3?

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. I'll be with you monthly. Great. Well, I'm looking forward to that. I know that our listeners will be, too.

And I want to remind you folks, the website to register for the G3 conference coming up in September of this year on the sovereignty of God is g3min .org,

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Iron Shirt from Zion Radio. I want to thank everybody who listened today. I want to also thank especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater