August 3, 2022 Show with Dr. William Webster & David T. King on “Speaking the Truth in Love: One of the Bible’s Most Frequently Ignored Commands”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity

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Living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this third day of August 2022 and I am so thrilled to have as returning guests

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Two very dear friends of mine who are also very dear friends of each other

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First we have dr. William Webster pastor of Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington He's an author and the founder of Christian resources, and we also have joining him

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David T King assistant pastor of Christ Church of Katy, Texas Which is a congregation in the

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Presbyterian Church in America also known as the PCA And he is co -author along with dr.

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William Webster of the monumental groundbreaking three -volume work Holy Scripture the ground and pillar of our faith and today

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The three of us are going to be discussing speaking the truth in love One of the

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Bible's most frequently ignored commands by Christians who should know better And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both back to iron sharpens iron radio.

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Dr William Webster and David T King Thanks Chris good to see you and first of all

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Dr. Webster, couldn't you please let our listeners know for the sake of our listeners who are

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Unfamiliar with you and your ministry who have not heard you on this program before Tell us first of all about Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington great

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Bible is a Small reform Presbyterian, excuse me

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David just broke out in a big smile Yeah, it's it's well we we agree on so much it's just a couple of things we don't

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But yeah, we we are a Baptist Church We're located in Battleground, Washington been here 20 years

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Very committed to the Word of God to the gospel and I have just a wonderful group of people here committed to the same things and you would be a

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Reformed Baptist Church, correct adhering to the doctor at hearing to the doctors of sovereign London 1689 confession great.

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Well if anybody wants to have more information about Grace Bible Church of Battleground Washington go to grace

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Bible battleground org Grace Bible battleground org and now

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Pastor David T King Tell us about Christ Church of Katy, Texas, which is in as I've already mentioned the

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Presbyterian Church in America Yes, Chris, we're located in Katy, Texas, which is about 25 30 miles west of Houston and Very growing community and Having the opportunity to minister there each week to our people in and to serve our pastors a session and the church at large and there is a very much a focus on the gospel and Meeting us where we are and It's a privilege to serve at this church the staff

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I'm just thankful for all of them. Well, if anybody wants to know more about Christ Church of Katy, Texas Go to CCK PCA org

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CCK PC a .org Now I would be amiss if I did not

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Highlight, even though this is not our theme today highlight the aforementioned groundbreaking

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Monumental three -volume work that both of you contributed to Known as Holy Scripture the ground and pillar of our faith, which was published by Christian resources the publishing ministry of dr.

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William Webster. First of all Bill if I may call you that for the remainder of the program

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Let our listeners know about this astronomical work that involves translations if I'm correct of patristic evidence

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Before the belief in Sola Scriptura by the Church Fathers prior to the

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Reformation and of course not using that phrase that Latin phrase, but the clear concept that Long before the

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Reformation many if not, most of the Faithful men of God that are highly regarded by both

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Roman Catholics and Protestants actually believed in Sola Scriptura that scripture alone is our sole infallible and inerrant

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Authority for the church tell us about how this all came about to begin with A date

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David and I were actually in a What was that?

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We were in David. It was it was an old web board. It was a forum We were on with it was populated by a number of Protestants Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics and we would discuss various issues together

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It was Very challenging it was for the most part a friendly engagement between all of us and through that David and I got to know one another pretty well and Decided it would be very needful

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To try to put something together From a research standpoint on the

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Biblical defense of Sola Scriptura and the historical defense of Sola Scriptura in terms of the view first of all of the

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Word of God towards itself and Then looking historically at what the church

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Actually believed and taught about the written Word of God all of that comes out of the context, of course of the

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Reformation and The Reformation's called for men to come back to what they call ad fontes that is the original source of all revelation the word of the living

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God not church tradition and what we were able

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I think to do is David handled the biblical aspect of it of depending the doctrine of Sola Scriptura biblically what does scripture actually teach and Then I handled the historical question

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What was the view of the early church? towards the written scriptures in light of the tradition that had developed over time to them

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Roman Catholicism and They fight go ahead. I'm sorry. Yeah, what you would you find?

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Biblically is a very clear Presentation Revelation of the fact that the written

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Word of God is the only special revelation that we possess today not oral tradition

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Not tradition even in writing of men that's been handed down The ultimate authority for all men is the written

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Word of God all tradition has to be Validated checked out

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By the written scriptures and then we look at it historically from the very beginning the universal belief of the church was that the the written

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Word of God the Old and the New Testaments are the ultimate authority They are sufficient.

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They are primary and they are materially and formally sufficient to declare truth to men and We documented that and think that we

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Have been able to demonstrate fairly conclusively that this that the doctrine of sola scriptura promulgated by the

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Reformers that the Reformation was just a call back to what the universal faith of the church had been during the patristic age and Isn't it true

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David that Although the the

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Roman Catholic Church Dogmatically Exalts the non -canonical traditions of Rome to An equal if not superior point of authority

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To the scriptures they still believe that only the scriptures are actually God breathed don't they?

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uh Yes, they have not been able to give any other instances and of course depending upon the particular

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Roman apologist to whom you're speaking opinions there may differ but as far as It goes.

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They cannot give us any instance of of any tradition that is actually regarded as the anus toss, so Really only scripture is

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God breathed and How David did you come to know and start to cooperate in ministry?

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with Bill Webster Well this bill said we were both members of a forum.

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I guess it was back around 95 1995 96. Oh, that's how we were really

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Matt yes, we actually met on that forum and It was on that forum that we began to collaborate and about Doing the work in defense of so the scripture that the honest truth was is that?

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Personally I began to look around for some Modern defense of so the scripture and Everywhere, I looked there was nothing really to be found and So I honestly

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I thought that you know I I could cooperate in producing such a work and research it or else

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I can sit around and complain for lack of resources, and that was really a big motivating factor for Me to become involved in this so I forget who?

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You know gave the idea that who I know that Bill and I began to speak about it And we thought that maybe we would co -author a modest work

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But once we got into it given our research It just began to expand and and and include many areas that We hadn't anticipated and and the reason this is because it all the evidence

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Pointed to scripture alone as the sole infallible infallible source

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For authority for faith and practice in the church, and this was something that in my mind

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The as you began to look into the witness of the early church fathers It was something that they all affirm if there was any kind of patristic consensus

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It it was that the scriptures alone are the ultimate authority for the adjudication of faith and practice and even in the ancient church and To my knowledge.

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I have not received an update from either of you to the contrary there has been no

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Roman Catholic Response that has been published to this three -volume monumental work am

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I correct still No published response some of the ones that have interacted with me indicated that They're they're not going to Purchase our work to read it

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Well, that's not a response to the work so I mean you can give all kinds of responses, but unless you actually

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Read our work and interact with it, then it's really not a response not a meaningful response well every serious student of Not only the

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Reformation, but also the Church of Rome Cannot be without this very important, and I keep repeating monumental because it is monumental three volume nearly nine hundred pages of Patristic evidence and biblical evidence of sola scriptura being

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The way that any genuinely Christian individual or church should view the scriptures that they are the sole infallible inerrant authority for the church today

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You you have to have this in your library, and I'm going to give the website where you can find out more about this it is christiantruth .com

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christiantruth .com And once again the title of this three volume 900 page set is holy scripture the ground and pillar of our faith and bill

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Sometimes you have smart aleck Roman Catholics that always try to mock anything like this and of course they are not the the soul

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The soul church that has wise guys In its midst we have we have enough of our own, but I have a few but they might say oh

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These guys have written a book about or three volume work on Holy Scripture, and yet they don't even get the scripture, right?

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It says holy the title is Holy Scripture the ground and pillar of our faith if you could explain

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That title even though there is a similar Biblical text, but this has been reworded and tell us why?

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It's actually a quote from Irenaeus It is biblical too, but the the church father

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Irenaeus in the second century Uses that phrase to define the

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Ultimate authority of the Word of God. He makes the statement that initially the the apostles preached orally

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But then he says by the will of God What they had preached orally was then inscripturated put in writing and Those writings are now the apostolic tradition that's how we know what it was and And that has become the ground and pillar of our faith

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And so I use that but you know both both from the standpoint of a biblical truth

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As well as a patristic, so it's showing a biblical and a historical validation of the truth of Sola Scriptura In his mind every single doctrine that was promulgated by the church

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Had to be validated by the written Word of God, and if you look at the rule of faith in the early church

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It's called You know the apostolic tradition. It is a summation of the major truths of the written scriptures

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That the early church felt were essential for the belief of the church every single one of them is derived from the

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Word of God And of course what I was referring to earlier is that the

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Roman Catholics have long distorted and twisted a biblical truth that we find in first Timothy 3 15 that the

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Church of the Living God is the pillar and ground of truth and They make the

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Roman Catholic apologists make that out to mean something which is which it does not mean because they seem to forget that a pillar holds something else up and They they put a priority of the church over the scripture in this text which

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Paul the Apostle never intended in these God -breathed words if you could comment perhaps

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David you could comment on that Yes in Paul and Timothy Speaks of the church to be the the ground and the pillar of the truth

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But as you indicated the church is there to uphold the truth

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The church was born of the Word of God the Word of God Was was a gift from God himself that he gave to his church, and it became the church's responsibility to guard the

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Word of God and and to hold it up as the truth and So that's what

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Paul is basically teaching in first Timothy chapter 3 when he speaks of the church as being the ground and the pillar of the truth the what as Bill indicated

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Irenaeus When he was writing he he indicates he and I love the way he puts it

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He puts it in such a plain way That one can only Misunderstand what he's saying if they're determined to misunderstand it

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He says we have learned from none others the plan of our salvation Then from those through whom the gospel has come down to us

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Which they did at one time proclaim in public He says and though at a later period by the will of God Handed down to us in the scriptures to be the ground and pillar of our faith and so What what

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Irenaeus? Irenaeus is affirming in no uncertain terms. There is that the scriptures are

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Proclaimed to us what what the Apostles one time proclaimed in Public they later inscribed by writing

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And handed it down to us via the scriptures and the scriptures were to be the ground and the pillar of our faith

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These are clear words from Irenaeus and though people tried to distort them.

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It's It's very clear. And so when Paul is speaking, it's

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Irenaeus had no intention of Trying to distort the words of the

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Apostle Paul in 1st Timothy chapter 3 But 1st Timothy chapter 3

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Paul is making it clear that it is the church's responsibility to hold forth the scriptures

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And in that sense the church is the ground and the pillar of truth now

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Before I Move to the actual theme that we are

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Planning to focus on today speaking the truth in love. I just wanted to clarify a couple of things

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For our listeners in regard to this You have on the one end of the spectrum

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Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox who Exalt The writings and importance of The church fathers to not only an idolatrous level but even an historically incorrect level

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You will have phrases Such as the unanimous consent of the fathers and they disagreed on Quite a number of things in fact, there are some of the church fathers that although being exalted by the

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Church of Rome Believed things that the Church of Rome later would clearly identify as heresy

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So you have that on the one hand and you have on the other end of the spectrum some evangelical products

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Protestants and especially perhaps fundamentalist Baptists Who totally reject the patristics

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Patristic writings as having any use at all for the church

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They they inseparably link them with Romanism, even though Romanism didn't exist

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When these fathers were alive on the planet Earth, so Bill if you could explain where we should find a secure

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Balance when it comes to the writings of the church fathers that you and David have made

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Have made much use of well, you have the general principle

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Enunciated by the church fathers all through the patristic age Which you know that goes from the 2nd century all the way up to Basically the 6th century

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These men are all committed in a fundamental way to what they call the rule of faith

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You do have That rule that comes out of the Word of God they are committed to the ultimate authority of the

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Word of God The primacy of it the sufficiency of it much of Roman Catholic tradition

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Is an addition to the rule of faith. I mean you you have certain doctrines that have been dogmatized in the

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Roman Catholic Church with meaning they are necessary to be believed for salvation

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Vatican 1 in the 19th century Decreed that it's necessary for salvation that every

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Professing Christian be subject to the Bishop of Rome that he is the ruler of the church

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Throughout the universal church throughout the earth that he is also infallible when he teaches and an authority in it in his authority

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It says acts ex cathedra from the chair Where he promulgates

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Teachings related to faith and morals of the church That has been done relatively very little within the history of the church

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But there are certain papal dog Teachings that have been dogmatized such as the immaculate conception of Mary That she was born free of original sin the assumption of Mary That she was raised

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Into heaven assumed in heaven either before Or shortly after she died

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Although it is not dogmatic teaching that results from that she is now the queen of heaven and Has a mediatorial role to play in the salvation of men and women

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That is called the mediatrix doctrine of Mary that is subsequent to the

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Dogmatizing of the assumption The assumption is necessary to be believed for salvation according to Roman teachings.

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It was promulgated by Pius XII in 1950 So previous to that you could be free to disagree with the dogma the problem is the assumption of Mary that dogma originated with Gnosticism and Was condemned as heretical by two bishops of Rome in the fifth and sixth centuries

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So you have this fundamental contradiction? There are other dogmas

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Such as the teaching of Matthew 16 the rock you are

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Peter on this rock. I will build my church That is the foundation to the entire edifice if you will of Roman Catholicism to its authority

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When you look at the patristic understanding of that verse it is a complete opposite It is an

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Eastern Orthodox Protestant view that the rock is not Peter as a man

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It is Peter's confession his faith pointing to the person of Christ Augustine Makes the statement in exegeting that passage

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Christ did not build his church on a man But on Peter's confession and he says there is the rock for you so when we come to Seeking the ultimate authority for our lives we have to come to the foundation to the one revelation of the

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Living God that we possess Which is the word of the Living God that we possess in the

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Old and the New Testaments and as far as the the teaching the doctrine of Co -redemptrix of Mary being the co -redemptrix.

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That's the one that Rome has still been holding out on as far as a reluctance to dogmatize that although there are significant

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Mariologists within Rome that are eager to push for the

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Dogmatizing of Mary being a co -redemptrix including Dr. Mark Amir Valley of the

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Franciscan University of Steubenville And others so am

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I correct on that that that's like a holdout that still hasn't gone through and has been and has not become as as Popular and as universally accepted as Mary being a co -redemptrix, as Mary being a mediatrix

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Well, I think it would be similar to other dogmas like the Immaculate Conception and the

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Assumption It's a slow evolution It becomes something that is implicitly taught in the church, but it is not

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Dogma yet. That was true the Assumption. It was true the Immaculate Conception and it becomes popular belief and Then it is it becomes dogma.

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Now whether it will actually become dogma or not, that is supposition, but it would seem given the popularity of the teaching because there are vast numbers

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Within the Roman Catholic Church who do believe it even though it is not dogma It's probably just a matter of time before it will be added to that list of dogmas.

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And when I have heard Roman Catholic apologists discuss this and Are a part of the number that are reluctant to go that far.

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It seems the only reason they're reluctant is They don't want to form a greater wedge between Evangelicals in their efforts for ecumenism.

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Would you agree with that? I Would think that's probably true of some

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You know, it was also an issue when they dogmatized papal infallibility and the papal rule in 1870

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There was great concern that this would be a great divisive issue between Protestants and Roman Catholics and the church moved forward

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With that anyway, so I don't see that necessarily being Something that would be a great preventative if enough people really wanted it to be dogmatized and ultimately, it's it's really the the

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Bishop of Rome and The overall leadership of the church that has to agree to pursue it well we have to go to our first break right now, please send in your questions for William Webster and David T King to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence

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If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter

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Don't go away we're going to be right back right after these messages with more of William Webster and David T King and We are going to be entering in to our discussion of speaking the truth in love

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Don't go away. We'll be right back James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here excited to announce that my longtime friend

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To register visit g3 min org. That's g3 min org and click on events

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We're now back with William Webster and David T King who are co -authors of the the groundbreaking three -volume work

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Holy Scripture the ground and pillar of our faith They are Friends and they are colleagues in ministry

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And they are dear friends of mine, and I have to say this before I forget if you are ever looking for conference speakers especially in the area of Roman Catholicism and even on the heretical error of many within modern evangelicalism

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Who reject the vital teaching that repentance is a necessary element?

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salvation either of those issues and of course They could speak on a multitude of other issues, but those would be the core issues that they both are very

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Familiar with and have written on and have spoken about I would highly urge you to invite them as I plan to do in 2023

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I plan to attempt to invite these two brothers to Conduct a conference together here in Pennsylvania, and I strongly urge you to do the same thing

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But bill it was your idea your desire

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To address the issue speaking the truth in love Which is one of the

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Bible's most frequently ignored commands by Christians who should know better and I include myself in that I have

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I have sinned grievously on many occasions Unfortunately some of them publicly with the internet and social media when grappling with when doing written battle with those that have

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Not just Pleasantly disagreed with something that I may have posted on the internet, but but very often it starts when somebody is mocking what

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I believe or and saying things that are slanderous and Cruel, but that does not give me a license to a sin in my response

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But tell us why is it what was going on that you have been witnessing? What is going on?

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in Christendom that has Compelled you to want to discuss this today publicly in our program.

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Well you and I were talking and kind of a moaning the state of Discourse That goes on within the the broad

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Evangelical culture and of course this is true throughout our culture at large

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Where we are today it is It's just very sad to me.

43:55

It's very grieving That it's so polarized There's so much animus between people

44:06

And then sadly this was filtered down into the church You see it displayed in social media in posts that men make on different platforms you

44:19

You see it publicly and the way men speak about and to one another

44:26

And it's getting it's not improving I We probably have all been the recipients in one way or another some of that most unpleasant discourse

44:41

Sadly, we probably have crossed the line at times as you just mentioned.

44:46

I don't think anybody can look at what the Word of God says about speech and Hold their head up and say yeah,

44:54

I have never crossed that line We're all in this boat together but my concern is

45:06

That you know, we talk we've talked Far about the authority of the

45:11

Word of God and how important the scriptures are They are the ground and pillar

45:17

Of our faith they are the foundation to the entire Christian life

45:23

They are the revelation of God to us Paul says in Philippians 1 that we are to be we each says of the

45:31

Philippians and that would buy Implication include all believers that by grace they share in his calling to Proclaim and defend the gospel

45:46

Well, that's words It involves speech and we are in ministry, especially those who are leaders who were pastors and teachers

46:00

We take that very seriously in the Evangelical Church this call of Paul for example to Timothy to guard through the

46:11

Holy Spirit who's been given to us the Treasure and trusted that is the Word of God the gospel

46:17

We are called by Christ to proclaim the gospel in the Great Commission To teach men the

46:25

Word of God how to obey him to walk in obedience to his commandments

46:31

It's very important that we understand we have a calling to speak but it's also equally important to understand that God expects us to do it in a righteous way and And There is a governing foundational principle to all that we're called to it's called love

46:53

We are called to obey the Word of God not just defend it

47:02

That means then that our life is meant to be governed by love for God first and foremost secondly by love for people and You know, you shall love your neighbor as yourself that includes all men

47:20

But especially it includes our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ You know

47:28

Peter said we are born again For a sincere love of the brethren and so my concern is

47:39

Is That we are not taking seriously enough what the

47:45

Word of God teaches us about speech and specifically Oh, it's specifically we're talking about Ephesians 4 15

47:53

Speaking the truth of love we are to grow up in all aspects into him who is the head right that is

47:58

Christ right, so Looking at what the

48:04

Word of God teaches us about the manner in which we speak and not just the words that we hear

48:10

But the spirit behind them in the heart That's equally as important And I think that it it is extremely necessary in this day in which we live to give a warning a

48:27

Biblical warning to all of us. We need to step back take a breath sit down stop talking and Listen to what the

48:39

Word of God teaches us and exhorts us and warns us about righteous speech because the

48:48

Lord has very Sober words to say about those who neglect to heed that word and we we

49:01

If we do not heed it, it will be to our great detriment now

49:07

David There are many who will rebuke

49:15

Their brethren in Christ Because We are perhaps in a public forum being stern in Regard to somebody who is teaching heresy

49:29

Somebody who is sinning in the way that they approach the scriptures. They may be not only twisting the scriptures

49:36

They may be slandering great men of God. I could go on and on and on but when we respond

49:42

We are not behaving like mr. Rogers we're not saying in a calm quiet voice that's an interesting perspective and I really

49:55

I really value Your opinions on things and you know, we can be very stern without sinning.

50:04

Can't we I mean this Challenge that we have this command to speak the truth and love does not mean that we are to Be man be pambi, especially when it comes to the correction and rebuke of serious error

50:21

Agreed there's a way to rebuke or to speak or to address one's brother and we have a real prime example of that in Holy Scripture, I can't help but think of Paul and his interaction with Peter in Galatians that we read of and I'm sure that That Paul was forced to actually get into Peter's face in fact,

50:54

Paul says I had to withstand him to his face and and of course,

51:00

I Think that Peter was overcome by by Paul's arguments ultimately and When Paul was rebuking him for his hypocrisy

51:12

But Paul did so in such a way and this is one thing. I'll never forget when

51:17

I first read it in a sermon of Dr. D. Martin Lloyd -Jones, and he brought up this example and he says think of Paul how he spoke to his brother

51:29

Peter he says he rebuked him in such a way so that years later

51:36

Peter could refer to him as our beloved brother

51:41

Paul He says no matter how stern Paul's words were to Peter.

51:49

They must have been words that were spoken in love To the end that Peter could make such a testimony

51:58

Concerning his brother the Apostle Paul, and I think that's a scriptural lesson from us a illustration that just stands out and and and speaks to us in in such a way

52:14

I think that The way we use our tongues the way we speak to one another

52:21

And especially it's not when we agree with one another but it's when we disagree with one another that our speech is an indication of Where we are spiritually,

52:35

I think that the tongue the use of the tongue constitutes a

52:41

Manifestation of the condition of the heart on many occasions our tongues can become but an echo

52:48

What is in our hearts Jesus teaches us in Matthew chapter 12?

52:55

When he's talking about the only sin That will not be forgiven in this world or in the age to come

53:03

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is really a sin that involves the use of the tongue in fact

53:10

Can we pick up can we pick up right where you left off because we have to go to our midway break and so sure Don't forget

53:15

Matthew 12 Please use this time wisely since this is the longer the normal break in the program because grace life radio 90 .1

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Respond to our advertisers as frequently as possible. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages

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Attention all men in ministry leadership, you're all invited to my friend Chris Arnson's iron sharpens iron radio free pastors luncheon

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To our discussion with William Webster And David T King on the importance of speaking the truth in love.

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01:09:41

William Webster and pastor David T King On the theme speaking the truth and love one of the

01:09:48

Bible's most frequently ignored commands by Christians Who should know better and David right before the break you were addressing in Matthew 12 if I'm not mistaken

01:09:57

Yes in Matthew chapter 12 the Lord Jesus had healed a demon possessed person who was both blind and mute and of course the

01:10:09

Pharisees began to Complain when they saw how Taken up the people were with the miracle of the

01:10:19

Lord Jesus and there they accused him of casting out this demon by the chief or the head of the demons

01:10:26

Beelzebub and Jesus told him if I cast out demons with by the

01:10:32

Spirit of God surely the kingdom of God has come upon you and And of course they began to accuse him of Having done this in the name of the devil per se and of course the

01:10:49

Lord immediately identifies that as The sin of blasphemy against the

01:10:55

Holy Spirit. I was making the comment that It's interesting to me that One of the only sins for which there is no forgiveness in this world or in the world to come is a sin that really finds expression in the tongue and It came to expression on the tongues of the

01:11:17

Pharisees and the comment that the Lord Jesus Made was that this was not just a slip of the tongue on the part of the

01:11:25

Pharisees but it was an expression what was in their hearts for Jesus goes on to say for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks literally out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks and so their mouths their tongues were actually a window to the state of their own hearts and So the

01:11:51

Lord Jesus Christ makes it very clear that we ought to be careful with the use of our tongues, of course, first of all we need to regard our hearts and be reminded of the command we have in Proverbs to keep or the guard our hearts with all diligence for out of it or the issues of life and What is in the heart can inevitably?

01:12:18

Find expression on the tongue and so we need to be very careful how we deal with one another especially

01:12:27

How we deal with our brothers and sisters in Christ when we disagree it's kind of like a husband and a wife and You don't know that there's a good relationship when the husband and wife agree on Everything it's when they disagree on a particular issue that you really discover what is the nature of the

01:12:53

Relationship between the two and I think the same thing is true of Christians Do we really love one another if so, then that ought to temper?

01:13:07

the use of our tongues we ought to be able to put a bridle on our tongues as James expresses it and James there is so much in the little epistle of James about the use of the tongue

01:13:22

We have Robert in Westchester County, New York who says

01:13:28

Jesus called the Pharisees brood of vipers hypocrites and Whitewashed tombs filled with dead men's bones.

01:13:39

Is it ever appropriate for Christians to rebuke? those who are teaching heresy and also behaving sinfully in Public or even in private as Jesus did

01:13:55

And you maybe bill you could start since David already spoke here Well, I think we do have to make an important distinction between ourselves and the person of Christ Christ reads the heart

01:14:11

He knows what is going on in the inside of the individual. He is

01:14:17

God. He is Lord He's a prophet He's the

01:14:23

Messiah we are not I Cannot be a judge in that sense

01:14:29

Jesus can So, I think we have to be very careful

01:14:36

We have to look at all of what the Word of God teaches us remonstrating warning

01:14:47

About the use of the tongue because there's so much negative that we are in time to you in our hearts and We have to be very very careful

01:15:01

It is appropriate that said to speak to issues that need to be spoken to That's why if a brother is an open sin

01:15:12

We are enjoined it. He says let him speak to you He who is spiritual go to that brother in private and rebuke him

01:15:21

There is an appropriate time to stand up and speak against certain issues

01:15:30

With respect to the gospel it is extremely important to stand for truth The issue is how

01:15:39

I have to guard my spirit and I have to guard my tongue in What I say and how

01:15:47

I say it what is my motive in speaking What is my attitude?

01:15:53

Towards this person I am addressing You you get into these descriptions

01:16:01

That the Word of God has about slander reviling mocking revived you know a a

01:16:13

Sinful abusive form of speech. It's ad hominem It's attacking the person

01:16:20

It's tearing them down It's trying to humiliate them. It's trying to make them look foolish

01:16:28

It's disrespectful if it has a haughtiness behind it a superiority behind it a

01:16:39

Harshness The Lord's bond servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to all able to teach

01:16:47

Patient when wrong with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition It perhaps they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil

01:16:57

You're dealing there with people who oppose who oppose truth And we have to realize you know throughout the history of the church men have always disagreed

01:17:10

Issues there has been never in the entire history of the church a

01:17:16

Consensus throughout the church on every aspect of the Word of God and truth

01:17:21

There is when it comes to primary truth all of the church fathers agreed on the rule of faith

01:17:28

Those are primary truths There are primary truths related to the gospel

01:17:34

Related to the essentials of what it means to be a Christian. We have to agree on those and There is this unity of truth that we are called to but there's also a unity.

01:17:46

We're called to of love on Secondary issues we have to realize that we have to give a brother the right to disagree with us and Have a right attitude towards them

01:18:02

That's where we get in trouble we begin to lift up secondary issues as if they're primary and we demand that everyone kowtow to our particular point of view and That can get into all kinds of issues relationally and how we speak about one another

01:18:21

But this call to love and this call of the Lord Jesus I mean

01:18:27

James puts it this way if a man thinks himself as religious And that you could use the word spiritual you think you're spiritual, but you don't bridle your tongue you deceive your heart and Your religion he says your spirituality is worthless

01:18:46

Well, that's very sobering So if I'm out there and I am a big defender in my mind of the truth of the

01:18:55

Word of God But I'm railing against individuals and I'm calling them all kinds of names and I am

01:19:02

Very ungracious in my speech and I am slanderous Misrepresenting them you know, this is sin and What what

01:19:15

God is saying to me what he's saying to all of us What use is it and James says that right?

01:19:22

What uses it my brother if you say certain things But you don't have any works and by works

01:19:28

He means love because he goes on to define that in James 2 James 1 James 3 and James 4

01:19:36

So what use is it what use is it to go out and teach and preach and defend if you are contradicting everything you say by the way you live

01:19:48

And I think we need to take that to heart and we need to realize there is a higher calling on our life than ministry

01:19:58

There's a higher calling on our life and defending the Word of God and teaching the Word of God. It's my personal relationship with Christ and Sanctification that I'd be a man who loves now some things need to be clarified because as You both know full.

01:20:20

Well, there are people out there Who are typically ecumenists

01:20:28

And I'm not talking about biblical Ecumenism that we are demonstrating even here today where we have a reformed

01:20:35

Baptist and a Presbyterian Who are colleagues in ministry and who write together and teach together?

01:20:43

I'm talking about those who are involved in modern ecumenism with those who deny the gospel

01:20:50

They would say that even having debates as I Love to orchestrate and have been doing since 1996

01:20:59

They would say that is an act of hate. That is an act of nastiness and mean -spiritedness

01:21:06

And I've often said I don't know how You can possibly Describe a well -conducted debate that way

01:21:16

When you merely are having two people who disagree on vitally important matters and they're each

01:21:25

Ascending into a podium To defend what they believe and to critique what their opponent believes.

01:21:32

And of course, we know that debates can devolve into nastiness and mean -spiritedness

01:21:39

But when they are conducted properly Just because you're publicly disagreeing and you are stern about it

01:21:49

That doesn't mean in my opinion and I'm sure you two would agree in fact, it was dr

01:21:54

William Webster who first eagerly and enthusiastically urged me to invite

01:22:00

James White to Participate in what became the great debate series on Long Island New York's from the 90s through the 2000s

01:22:11

After I invited dr. Webster to participate. I did not yet know. Dr.

01:22:16

White and so This has to be something that is made clear doesn't it because one of the things for instance,

01:22:25

I love about dr. White Unlike the slander that he has received of being nasty and bigoted in his debates

01:22:36

He has I have seen him on several occasions Rebuke sternly rebuke the audience the

01:22:43

Protestant audience for laughing at a Debating opponent

01:22:48

I can clearly remember him doing that in his debate with the liberal

01:22:56

Barry Lynn when they were debating on His homosexuality compatible with biblical

01:23:02

Christianity and I can clearly remember him doing it with Peter Stravinsky's the

01:23:07

Roman Catholic priest and apologist when they were debating on purgatory he silenced the audience for erupting and laughter when they heard certain responses and But but doesn't that need to be made clear that not all stern

01:23:22

Objection and refutation and rebuke means that you're sinning and David. Let me start with you since Bill just spoke

01:23:31

Well, Chris, I have to say I've never engaged in in a live debate of that sort, but Certainly, that's a time when one really needs to to be guarded in In one's responses,

01:23:46

I think some of the most Severe rebukes that I have received in my lifetime that were the most effective in Bringing a change in myself or those that were delivered to me in in very soft language

01:24:08

And I've tried to remember that throughout my life What has actually contributed to necessary changes that were made in my own life and and the rebukes that had an influence in that and most most of if not all of them that I can remember were were rebukes that were given to me in very loving language and I think that that that loving language can can be

01:24:42

Sharp and in being effective, but I don't think that there's no excuse for us to be sharp in our language

01:24:53

Toward one another No, James just makes it clear. You know bill was just referring to James chapter 1

01:25:02

I believe this verse 26 where he said if anyone seems to be religious and Does not bridle his tongue

01:25:10

His his religion is useless and Think about think about that We we play so much stock and what we know and what we understand and what we think we know about God and theology and And yet our minds are so finite in many respects

01:25:35

There are things that are above and beyond us and where's the humility? And if there's one attribute that the

01:25:43

Bible commends Over and over again, it's humility. It's being able to receive correction

01:25:51

It's being able to take hard words in a good way

01:25:58

And there's room for that in all of us we ought to be Engaged in spirit of humility when we disagree with one another and when we do disagree with one another to remember that humility is

01:26:14

To be up front as one of the principal graces in our exchanges one with another now

01:26:22

Well, first of all before I respond There is a woman in the listening audience named

01:26:27

Patricia You have sent in what was likely intended to be a question

01:26:32

You have speaking the truth and love in your subject line, but your email is completely blank So if you could resend your email,

01:26:40

I don't know how that happened, but if you could resend your email It's your question and also your first name city and state and country of residence

01:26:48

But if David if you could define what you mean by we should not be sharp Because I believe it is very appropriate

01:26:56

Especially depending upon the severity of error being publicly presented

01:27:03

I Think that sternness which is not necessarily Identical to sharp, but I think sternness is very appropriate you hear

01:27:14

Somebody saying something very heretical or even blasphemous about Christ you hear your own

01:27:20

Words or perhaps if you're an author your writings or perhaps if you're a preacher and teacher in a public setting your sermons and lectures being totally twisted and slandered

01:27:35

Don't you think it's appropriate that without losing control emotionally and not raising your voice

01:27:42

But to sternly rebuke the one doing this and not

01:27:48

Being a Casper milquetoast over it and Saying I value your opinion so much and that kind of a thing it doesn't sternness have its place and righteous indignation

01:28:02

I Think we can be sharp and stern as in the sense of being to the point

01:28:07

But I'm talking about the we need to avoid the kind of sharpness that is abusive language

01:28:15

Bill was So clear on that while ago when we speak in such a way in which we're seeking to humiliate

01:28:23

The person with whom we're conversing right and and to treat them as though they're below ourselves

01:28:30

And trying to make ourselves look Superior while we cast them in an inferior light

01:28:38

That's that's what I meant Let's not be abusive in our language, let's not be sharp like that, but let's be sharp and stern indeed in Coming to the point, but there's a way to do that that that Really speaks a speaks of a loving

01:29:00

Toward one another and in the genuine interest in the other person to whom you're speaking, you know

01:29:08

It's a whole lot easier when you love that person To find a way to temper your speech

01:29:15

All of us have experienced that if you really love someone then you're going to temper the way you speak to them

01:29:22

You're going to be guarded In your words how you express yourself.

01:29:29

All of that comes into play. I think when we Consider the biblical teaching regarding the use of the tongue

01:29:37

We ought to be very careful and we have how we use our tongues we have

01:29:44

RJ and White Plains, New York I'll have bill answer this first and by the way, let's make this a rule that anytime one of you answers a question the other can feel free to expand on that in your own

01:30:01

Thoughts and words after the the initial person is finished, but RJ and White Plains says in addition to Jesus Christ himself using harsh words towards the hypocrites

01:30:17

We also have the Apostle Paul Using what would be called by many harsh words in his epistle to the

01:30:26

Church of Galatia He calls them fools he asks who has bewitched you is this kind of language ever appropriate when facing an opponent depending upon the severity of the situation

01:30:41

When the Apostle Paul used this language and he is not Christ He is speaking first of all about those

01:30:53

Who were enemies of the gospel? They are perverting the truth of the

01:31:00

Word of God and He needs to make that very clear to the people. He's speaking with the

01:31:07

Galatians the churches The issue here is if you buy into the teaching of these men

01:31:16

You need to understand They are not Identified with the

01:31:23

Lord Jesus Christ they profess his name But they are denying his gospel They are enemies of the cross of Christ as such you must be on guard against them as an apostle

01:31:40

Paul can speak in a very authoritative way to that issue We need to address truth

01:31:51

Especially with relation relationship to the gospel in very clear terms we can speak about a false gospel a distorted gospel as Paul has revealed that as being under the curse of God and We can say to a person in a loving way.

01:32:12

This is what the Word of God says Paul is Addressing them in a very individual way as an apostle

01:32:22

We have to appeal to the Word of God and allow the Word of God to speak to that individual

01:32:31

Again I had to be very careful about my spirit Paul was opposed to the

01:32:37

Judaizers But in his heart Though he would speak very firmly about them and warn them

01:32:46

Yes, Jesus did with the Pharisees hard words that are words of warning

01:32:52

Behind that is a spirit of love and concern for them And I think that is the main thing

01:32:58

I'm concerned with in terms of my dealing with another person I have to deal and I have and do so on an ongoing basis

01:33:08

With those who are opposed to the truth of the Word of God in primary areas

01:33:14

But I have to do so with the right spirit and I have to do so guarding my heart in my tongue

01:33:22

So that I speak in a loving gracious way, even though it says like 2nd

01:33:27

Timothy 2 Paul addressing the Lord's bondservant. You're not to be prognatious.

01:33:33

You're not to be contentious. You are not to be quarrelsome You're to be gentle you're to be loving you are to be firm and you never compromise truth about the same token

01:33:46

You have to if you are called to love your enemy as Jesus and joins us to in the

01:33:53

Sermon on the Mount Then we cannot we cannot approach this person that they are an enemy they're a victim of the devil

01:34:03

Yes, and Paul even Treated in a different way

01:34:10

The Galatians who were deceived from the actual

01:34:16

Deceivers who had bewitched them the Judaizers the leaders of that movement. He did treat them.

01:34:23

He actually calls the the Galatians that he's writing to his brothers so There was even though there was stern rebuke there was a difference he didn't use the

01:34:40

The the very serious condemnatory language

01:34:45

That he used against the Judaizers themselves those that perpetrated the law.

01:34:51

Am I right on that? No, that is correct He's trying to guard these believers

01:35:01

From an enemy who was seeking to subvert their faith and to draw them into error.

01:35:07

I mean he says in Galatians chapter 2 that when he and Barnabas and Titus went to Jerusalem and They had to confront those within the

01:35:22

Jerusalem Church who he says were false brethren and He said we did not give any ground to them for even an hour in terms of what they were promoting and teaching in Order that the truth of the gospel might remain with you

01:35:42

So that that is a major issue That we have to realize we have to separate out secondary issues from primary issues

01:35:54

But my attitude nevertheless whether I'm dealing with a primary issue or a secondary one

01:36:00

It's my attitude towards that person the way I deal with them the way

01:36:05

I speak to them and about them Just I'd look at what the

01:36:12

Word of God says about how we speak And it it brings me down very low in my heart

01:36:22

To cry out to the Lord for grace That I will always deal in a righteous way

01:36:29

Men in a way that honors him now

01:36:34

David, I'm sure you would agree that there is a sin in being too delicate and sweet to those involved in serious error as well as We all have heard public statements by men that we used to regard as Rock solid examples of the

01:36:59

Christian faith that we should imitate Who have shocked us by? making apologies to homosexuals

01:37:07

For publicly telling them that they would be Damned for eternity if they didn't repent and things like that now of course none of us condone the wicked speech of The Westboro Baptist Church and their

01:37:26

God hates fags movement And there's so many other things that they've added to got those who

01:37:33

God hates. We don't condone that ever Because those people have no desire to see anyone repent.

01:37:40

They just want to publicly humiliate Others, but at the same time don't we have to make very sure and make it crystal clear

01:37:49

That even in the manner with which we object the truth that we are not

01:37:55

Giving a soft message on these things that are damning and deadly. Yes.

01:38:03

I think we ought to always Stand for for truth, but how we stand for truth

01:38:11

Is to be underscored in in and normed by Holy Scripture there again going back to the relationship of Paul with Peter, but we're talking about here with you're talking about the confronting unbelievers with their sin even there

01:38:33

I Don't think that we should back up or apologize for the message of the gospel

01:38:39

The gospel carries its own offense without us Making other offenses to it the gospel is offensive enough

01:38:50

It's you preach the gospel you you tell anyone not just Someone who may be a homosexual, but you confront anyone with their sin

01:39:01

They're going to be offended the gospel It's offensive, but we have no right

01:39:09

To add other offenses that that are not in the gospel itself. I think we ought to be very careful

01:39:15

I can I can look at a lost soul and assured them that you know

01:39:21

And and tell them in many ways from Holy Scripture why they're a sinner and why they're deserving of God's judgment and and and do so in a loving way and you see time and time again the

01:39:38

Lord Jesus As an example in that respect and again We we need to be careful when we come to the

01:39:45

Lord Jesus as Bill said we're not him and so some of these passages are descriptive of the

01:39:53

Lord Jesus but when Jesus gives us an example then such an example is to be prescriptive for us as to how we're to treat other people and You look at the model of the

01:40:07

Lord Jesus Christ and What was the number one? Accusation that the scribes in the

01:40:14

Pharisees brought against Jesus It was this man receives sinners

01:40:24

This man is a friend of Sinners amen amen and we're going to go to our final break right now

01:40:31

It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks if you have a question Before William Webster and David T King send in your question immediately because we're rapidly running out of time

01:40:41

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Always give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence

01:40:49

And once again, I want to remind Patricia I'm not sure where you're from, but you still have not sent us a question.

01:40:56

You sent us a completely blank email With the headline speaking the truth and love so I'm certain you intended to send a question

01:41:04

So, please resend that and make sure the question is in the email. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages

01:41:27

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and put pastors luncheon in the subject line We're back now with our guests

01:48:05

William Webster and David T King and We've been discussing about the importance of speaking the truth and love.

01:48:13

Let me give you to an analogy here The people that we should be loving the most on this planet

01:48:25

Next to God and next to our spouses if we have them are our children if we have them and When we see our children either believing in something or doing something that is seriously

01:48:42

Dangerous and wrong something that's going to bring them harm a Parent should never say sweetie.

01:48:49

Sweetie. Can you put that fork down? Don't stick it in the electrical outlet, sweetie Honey don't wander into the traffic like that.

01:48:57

Come on, sweetie Obviously if we're to treat Children like that or should

01:49:04

I say since we're not supposed to treat children like that And that we were supposed to love them above strangers or enemies of the gospel

01:49:17

What are we to do with that knowledge? I'm not saying that we treat adults like children necessarily, but as again,

01:49:27

I keep returning because I don't want people to misunderstand us a sternness and an urgency and a seriousness and a gravity should be a part of our speech as well as long as we

01:49:38

Are not seeking to humiliate Not misrepresenting not slandering Not using ad hominem and so on but but there there needs to be a gravity to what we're saying

01:49:50

Don't you agree and we'll start with bill this time. Oh, I couldn't agree more

01:49:56

You're told to be sober in spirit if the scriptures You're told to be absolutely committed as a follower of Christ.

01:50:06

I am to follow him and Part of that following him means on live for his sake

01:50:12

In obedience to his word his commands in obedience to the law of God In obedience to the overall

01:50:20

Word of God man should not live on the right alone But in every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God that's following him

01:50:27

But part of that is following him with the gospel We are to stand for the truth of the gospel and we are to proclaim

01:50:37

If we are teachers of the Word of God preachers of the Word of God shepherds

01:50:43

That we have the responsibility under God Called by Christ to teach men obedience to that word and That that is very clear in the

01:50:57

Word of God and there are very clear truths of the Word of God that are non -negotiable And I have to stand for that but part of what we are called to do as we are talking

01:51:08

Talk about First first, you know, second Timothy three all scripture is

01:51:14

God -breathed It's inspired by God and it's profitable. It's profitable for teaching or I need to be grounded in truth grounded in in doctrine

01:51:23

I Need to fill my head with as much doctrine and theology as I can get in there

01:51:30

Constantly renewing it with the Word of God But it goes on It's also profitable for reproof and correction and it's interesting to me that there are two negatives that are used for the positive on teaching

01:51:45

I Need to realize the Word of God is not just given to inform my head.

01:51:51

So then I'm a talking head. I need to be a man of God who walks in obedience to what

01:51:58

I know and That's why the Word of God is given to reprove and correct because I need to be reproved and corrected

01:52:07

Because I have the flesh within me and it's changed one says

01:52:12

I can Deceive my heart. I need to hear the correction the reproof for training and righteousness.

01:52:19

I Walk in obedience to this word and in a commitment to the truth and now

01:52:26

I am equipped for every good work my effectiveness in Ministry is absolutely dependent on a walk of Sanctification of obedience and a huge part of that sanctification is you shall love your neighbor as yourself

01:52:44

It's really interesting to me in first Peter 1 Peter quotes from Leviticus Be holy you shall be holy for I am holy that is a quote from the

01:52:55

Old Testament from Leviticus 19 and In Leviticus 19 we find the command in verse 18

01:53:02

You shall love your neighbor as yourself the second greatest commandment The first is you shall love the

01:53:08

Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength If I love the Lord my God with all my heart soul mind and strength

01:53:13

I will love my neighbor as myself and that command to love my neighbor as myself is repeated in Romans 13

01:53:23

Galatians 5 and in James 2 it is applied to the New Testament believer and that is why it is so important to take the heart these

01:53:34

Exhortations about the tongue because they are an application of you shall love your neighbor as yourself

01:53:40

By the way, I want to apologize to two Listeners who sent in questions that we don't have time to address

01:53:48

Mike from Monroe, New York Who asked a question that was sort of off topic? Since it was on Roman Catholicism and although we were addressing that the first half hour

01:54:00

We are that wasn't our main theme, but perhaps next time we speak about Roman Catholicism You can resubmit your question

01:54:08

Mike also Ted in Moundville, Alabama You're very very long

01:54:14

Questions cannot be addressed today. I apologize, but perhaps the next time we address this subject

01:54:20

We can have your email resubmitted, but I want each of you We'll start with David since Bill last spoke

01:54:28

To summarize in about a minute what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners Before we leave this program and Bill then you could follow

01:54:37

David I just like to emphasize that our even our speech is

01:54:44

To be controlled and normed by Holy Scripture the way we interact With one another and the way we most interact with one another of course is in terms of our speech

01:54:57

We the way we talk to one another we should always Be speaking

01:55:03

Yes, as as Paul says in Ephesians in love, but it is the truth that we speak in Love, but how we treat one another is paramount to our

01:55:17

Christian testimony and to what Scripture requires of us and Jesus warns us that you know every idle word every idle word

01:55:30

Is going to come under the scrutiny of God's judgment and Therefore that that in itself ought to be enough to temper our tongues and Bill I would just bring us back to the fact that it's

01:55:44

David Referred to it a little while ago. The the tongue is reflective of the heart it reflects character and I'm not saying here that you know, we can all stumble

01:55:57

Over this issue and we do and that's why we need the correction of the Word of God But I would just caution the

01:56:04

Word of God in its commandments commands to us forbids reviling slander insults mocking scorning maligning

01:56:17

Misrepresenting having a judgmental attitude towards others vilifying a person

01:56:25

That all of that is absolutely Forbidden by the

01:56:30

Word of God, but I would just caution a Person this if this is habitual if this is reflective of how you treat people

01:56:41

You need to step back and realize this is reflective of a heart issue and I would suggest

01:56:51

That you go before the Lord And get things right with him because this in the end you will

01:56:59

Find yourself standing before the judge of the universe one day and you do not want to stand before him with this kind of characterization of your life and he is lawless and We are out of time and I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your websites

01:57:16

For Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington go to grace Bible battleground org grace

01:57:24

Bible battleground org for the publishing ministry of dr. William Webster go to Christian truth calm

01:57:32

Christian truth calm and for Christ Church of Katy Texas where David T King is an assistant pastor go to CCK PCA org

01:57:44

CCK PCA org I want to thank you to Cherished friends for doing such an extraordinary job today.

01:57:51

I look forward to you both returning very soon and very often I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write and I want you all to always remember for the