February 9, 2018 Show with Todd Friel on “Concerns About the Charismatic Movement Within Reformed Christian Churches & Fellowships” PLUS “John MacArthur: A Faithful Shepherd Enters Into His 50th Year of Gospel Ministry”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com

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This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this ninth day of February 2018 and I'm so delighted today to have two guests on who were both at and both on the roster at the recent g3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia and First my a guest for the initial part of the program

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I'm delighted to have back on the program Todd Friel who is an author He's a conference speaker and he's the host of wretched

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TV and wretched radio and we're gonna be discussing concerns about the charismatic movement within Reformed Christian churches and fellowships and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio

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Todd Friel I Think you're the first person that actually did that intentionally

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I'm doing great. It was so good to see you At the g3 conference again, and it was my honor and privilege for the very first time to be interviewed by you and I believe that the the

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Segment with me and my promotion of iron sharpens iron radio has probably already aired on wretched television.

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I think so Yes, and Adrian rink sent me a link of the entire program that that was featured on and so did

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Al Yerkes for that matter So tell our listeners I mean there may be some listeners in my audience who are unfamiliar with you, although that's doubtful

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But I do have new listeners joining the iron sharpens iron audience nearly every day it seems and they're not all evangelical

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Christians some are Roman Catholics some are Muslims some are

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Searching Agnostics and other things tell us about wretched

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TV and radio Well, if you've got folks like that listening I do a special shout out to y 'all if you are ever interested in having your sins completely totally

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Forgiven Jesus Christ is the one that you need to seek. Amen there. I want to use up my time for that.

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Is that okay? Well, that was the most important thing you could have said Well, it is the most important thing and I think maybe the reason that some folks listen to you is they hear somebody who seems

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Well sort of sane who is an all rabid and wild -eyed and maybe has something that Deals with that internal issue that I hope everybody struggles with and that is their conscience that screams oh, oh,

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I've got a bad feeling about what's going to happen when I die a Worldview if it's going to be believed

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I think needs to not only answer the big questions, but answer them harmoniously The issue of origins come from why are we here?

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How do we live and what's going to happen when I die and so a lot of those of religions can

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Answer one or two of those, but if you put all four of those together, they tend to crash into themselves

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Christianity harmonizes all Through the big questions and so if and you're not a believer and you are earnestly trying to figure out

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Where'd you come from? Why are you here? What's the point? Where are you going? I would encourage you keep listening to Chris and grab yourself a

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Bible Find yourself a Christian and you can find out that you were created by God in the image of God for God To glorify him by being forgiven by him so that you can inherit eternal life from him

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So that's our encouragement for you today. If you are not a believer Amen, I thank you very much for that as well

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So, how can people actually watch and or listen to you on wretched TV and radio?

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Yeah, visit Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints Have you noticed however the

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Mormons Wow They really it is clear that they believe that the way to find people is through the

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Internet if you search for a Bible verse These days Bible gateway pops up Bible hub pops up But you know what has been popping up before them is that the

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Mormon Church? They are really trying to reach people and there's also a Mormon Network with Mormon TV shows

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They don't identify themselves as Mormon But I guess they're pretty popular pretty well done and the kids are kind of digging them because they're kind of funny

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But I think it's their effort to try to get people into the Mormon Church and they're making an aggressive effort

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So be mindful. They're using the Internet pretty clever ways. Oh Man I I busted a gut

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I think I was on the border of having a coronary arrest laughing at a very unfortunately a very cleverly and Masterfully created

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YouTube that the Mormons did a self -parody using the Adele song. Did you see that YouTube?

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I Think so. Yeah And it's it's a shame that more Christians don't produce things of that quality because it could not have been done better and unfortunately, obviously it was promoting a

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Damning religion, but it was just hysterically funny Yeah, so where exactly do you stand on Mormonism?

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I wasn't clear with Well as I have

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Interviewed a number of people who were or are former Mormons I and I've heard a lot of the details about that religion

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I really don't think that you could be farther away from biblical Christianity than Mormonism, even though the average naive individual who is not a

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Christian or not a Student of the scriptures might think well, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints It's got to be just the same kind of a Religion there. They're typically pro -life. They're wholesome.

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They're friendly. They say they love the Bible They say a little of Jesus, but it's really closer and I'm not even exaggerating and I'm sure you would agree with this.

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It's closer to the pagan idolatry of Greek mythology

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Nordic mythology and also Roman Mythology, it's it's really much closer to that than it is to Christianity Well, if you can you can get an insight into my my wife's mind she believes that the same angel that appeared to Mohammed is the same one who appeared to Joseph Smith and it wasn't an a a good angel.

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It was demon That inspired them to write what they wrote because both of those religious systems are not good

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Yeah, that's that's an understatement of course they many of them are wonderful people when you're talking about your neighbors and so forth and and We have to admit as Christians that sometimes our unbelieving neighbors or neighbors and false religions

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They can outdo us as being better husbands better parents better siblings better children better Employees better citizens better neighbors.

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It's it's an unfortunate thing that we have not lived up What's that?

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I I don't doubt that either and Mormon folks are very nice. They pay their taxes They mow their lawn for the most part

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But I've also heard though from former Mormons that behind closed doors

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It's not nice at all. The reason that they are nice is because if you are not nice That's one of the ways that you earn your way to the celestial kingdom

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So it isn't as genuine and heartfelt as you might be led to believe it is a part of getting people into the system

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It's love -bombing Which is a very typical practice of of cultic like organizations

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Which by the way is another reason I believe the new apostolic reformation movement is growing.

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They go to university campuses This is not uncommon. They'll just walk up to other students and say would you like a hug and these kids?

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They want a hug They aren't they aren't feeling the love whether it's from home where whatever the reason and so they love pop these kids right into the

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Occultic movement of the new apostolic reformation movement so love -bombing might look loving but behind closed doors

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I understand it's it's not exactly that way with the Mormons. Yes, and actually I've heard from a former

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BYU faculty member professor tenured professor who is now a

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Christian she has said that there's an alarmingly high rate of child molestation within LDS households

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But perhaps that's a subject for another time and before we get into the meat of what we actually

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Intended to discuss today. I want you to tell our listeners about this booklet that you've been promoting about don't stub your toe

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And how on earth that title relates to the gospel? I have no idea, but we'll find out Okay, after I wrote it

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I came up with a Bible verse to support it Which is not unlike a lot of sermons that are going to be preached this

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Sunday evangelical churches But it's how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news?

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You did that It's called don't stub your toe. It is a very colorful little booklet

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It's very easy. It takes about 10 minutes to read but it's a thorough law gospel presentation kind of a funny cover

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But it gets right to it. It's pretty Presuppositional in its approach it explains who

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God is who you is What's your future is without Jesus Christ and an urgent plea to repent and put your trust in Jesus and I'm thrilled

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So many we've got something a little challenge called the big toe challenge because we want people to Start evangelizing where they're at.

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I get it. It's hard It's an irksome task Paul approached the Corinthians with fear no eloquence and much trembling.

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I get it Scary but it's not hard to give away a gospel booklet or to leave it on the table or to leave it in the library

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Or to put it in a bill that you're sending back to the credit card company and people have been responding

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Challenging people give away one a month or one per week so that by the end of the year you can go

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Hey, I gave the gospel to 52 people this year, which might be 52 people more than last year

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So it's called the big toe challenge at wretched org And I hope it has nothing to do with something we discussed in a previous broadcast

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Fungus Well, thank you. Thank goodness. They're not doing the visual graphics with preparation

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H yet. But anyway But I was going to say I hope it's not about a previous conversation.

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We had about youth leaders putting peanut butter on their feet You know what?

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I'll tell you I Was so hoping that trend was over. I just got an email from a buddy His parents go to a church that you know

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Circus basically and he decided to go down to the youth room and it was for Super Bowl Sunday and the youth pastor was doing

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Some shenanigans about football games or what have you and if you answered the question wrong about football

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They you know, they throw food at you and then the pet And then the pastor would eat the food off of the kid and it's like if I had seen

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Chris I I this might not be the right response. I kid you not my immediate response to this is somebody call 9 -1 -1

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Of course, this is nonsense What's going on if you heard about that going on in a public school where the teacher was eating food off of the students?

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The person will be arrested or at least I would hope fired But we're doing it in our churches and nobody's batting an eye it is

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It is so disparaging these treating these kids in this way No wonder why they run off to university and that they these rather erudite professors who don't treat them like No child should be treated that way they treat them respectfully they seem like they maybe are somewhat intelligent

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No wonder why they abandoned the faith of their childhood. We've got to stop these huge group shenanigans

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I was hoping they were done, but apparently not Well, I am glad as I told you before the program

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I'm so happy that one of my largest sponsors of iron trip and Zion radio Linbrook Baptist Church in Nassau County, Long Island, New York They are ordering 8 ,200 copies of your booklet to give to every household to mail out to every household in the

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Village or the town of Linbrook Long Island. I'm just blown away by that I mean I am too and I'll tell you if they if they do indeed go through with that Would encourage you to be praying because it's a it's a glossy.

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It's an eye -catching booklet. I've given it out Open it up and start reading it immediately Some people could get saved from that So I apply

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I'll tell you I applaud that church or making an effort to go outside and to reach their community

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Well done to those folks. Amen. Well, I know that your website is Richard org

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So I'm assuming they could get the booklet through Richard org. Yep. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, let's get into the very controversial

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Meet of the program today. You have concerns about the charismatic movement not only in general, but especially because of its rise amongst

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Reformed Christians and I can tell you that I have been saved since the mid 1980s

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When I was a new believer in the 1980s, although I'm sure reformed

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Calvinists existed. I'm sure I'm sorry reformed charismatics. I should have said

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I'm sure reformed charismatics existed But I didn't know any And now it's very common to meet people who are both theologically reformed in regard to their soteriology and charismatic in their pneumatology their views of the sign gifts and I don't know about you

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Todd, but I view there there are different ways to view this. I am very encouraged when

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I know of previously Arminian charismatic or Pentecostal pastors or church members or entire congregations who discovered deeper biblical truth i .e

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The reformed faith and they adopted embraced it embrace it and become very vocal about it but I think that that is different from a church that is already a reformed or Calvinistic cessationist church denomination fellowship

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Parachurch organization that becomes charismatic and is going in the opposite direction I don't know. Do you have any comments about what

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I just said? Yeah, I can't speak about the 1980s I was the entire 1980s.

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I was in touch with the ground I was lost and I was found and I was I was hungry like a wolf and I was wearing parachute pants

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So, I don't know about the 80s but I do know that now Don't anybody think that I'm not

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I'm not trying to defame anybody, but this is just this is just reality men like John Piper and Wayne Grudem and Matt Chandler who have been

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More than open to the gifts they become continuationist Matt Chandler probably leading the way now

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I think have opened up the door for more and more folks to think that God still speaks.

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Let's just speak with Talking about the prophetic utterances not signs and wonders at the moment, although they're also open to that but because of these men in particular

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I think that they've given permission to the many people who follow them whether it's gospel coalition or the acts 29 network to start hearing from God outside of the

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Bible to be open then to the charismatic gifts to even be open to signs and wonders and I think there's a distinction that must be made theologically and My concern is

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I don't think that John Piper And I don't think that Chandler or Wayne Grudem is going to start having angel feathers fall out of the ventilation system, but I Do fear that their followers will and the reason is once you say that God is still speaking outside of the

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Bible The brakes get taken off and you cannot stop it if our

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Operating principle for let's just say church theology is well, the Bible doesn't say you can't

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Therefore you can I would ask all of the folks who might be listening who are open to God still speaking

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When can you say no to somebody now Chris? Let me give you an example. I was speaking to somebody recently

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Who is taking his? Formerly conservative Baptist Church right into the

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IHOP movement. All right, that's quite a move Wow the International House of Prayer And I and I was trying to lovingly ask him and this is the same question that I would ask you if you're open to continuationism

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How can you tell somebody you can't do that or that that didn't happen?

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How can you tell Jen Johnson that the Holy Spirit isn't blue and that angels aren't flying around the throne of God?

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Please forgive me for this having a well all to say gas passing competitions. Wow. Can you tell

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Jen she's wrong? That's that's what she teaches. How can you tell Benny Johnson? Who's the wife of Bill Johnson that?

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Blowing a shofar horn and calling wakey -wakey to the angels to get them to come down and do whatever it is

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She thinks that they do. How can you say that can't happen? So I said to this fellow that I was talking to on the phone

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My dog happens to be sitting at my feet I'm one of those people who brings his dog to the office and there was there was my dog and I said

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Could my dog? Right now tell me Something in an in the

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English language that I could understand or even bark and I could understand it That would be a word from God.

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Can that happen? And he said well, I I don't think that's going to happen I said no no tell me can that could that happen if the principle is

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God doesn't say you can't Therefore it can and he goes well Balaam's ass spoke so I guess

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I would have to say yes your dog could speak to you now My concern is because of men like John and Matt and Wayne We are not going to be many months or years away from those type of things happening

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Inside of the gospel coalition or the x29 network because the brakes are off and there's no stopping this train

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Once it gets out of the station, by the way, I think David Berkowitz already experienced his dog speaking to him

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Anyway This I know that there are a lot of people who are

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Very very reserved in their charismatic experience or profession they

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Might even just be Continuationist in theory, but they are not involved in extravagant and bizarre and laughably heretical and seriously blasphemous

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Practices in their church and You know this this is something that we are talking about today.

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That may be offensive to them But I'm not I'm not I'm not suggesting that everybody's a continuationist is doing this, right?

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I'm suggesting though that your children Will probably not be as conservative as you are and your grandchildren won't either because it doesn't

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Look this is true for Everybody I don't care whether you're a cessationist or a continuationist.

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The pole is always to the left It always is very rarely. Does anybody automatically just get more conservative?

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And so my concern is with the gates open You might not but that doesn't mean those who follow you won't and and again my specific challenge is this

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How can you say? No, how can you say you can't do that if the principle is the

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Bible doesn't say that you Can't do that. And the answer is you can't now you might have

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I watched an interview with Matt Chandler for instance This was from 2011 and he said when somebody has a dream in his church

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They don't just let him blab it all over the place They need to bring it to the elders and then the elders determine if the dream is from God and then they disseminate it as They see fit.

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All right. No, I disagree with that. But having said that Clearly, they're trying to have some restraints some guardrails my fear is that the next the people that come behind will just remove those guardrails and That it will just be game on when it comes to signs and wonders the charismatic gifts and there is nothing to stop it from Plummeting into the lunacy that we see in the new apostolic

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Reformation movement. Now, let's let's also be clear on this too. I'm not talking about Orthodox within Orthodoxy Assembly of God type of charismatics.

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I think that distinction needs to be made There are charismatics of the of the assembly of God movement you then you've got the word faith

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That they're there. That's that's not that's not an Orthodox movement. Then you've got the new apostolic

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Reformation movement When did most of this start? Well, you know five you had your first wave the 60s, you know, we saw a second wave now

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We're in our third wave. Look at the history of that movement It wasn't as bonkers a hundred years ago as it is today.

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Why because there's no guardrails on Continuationism and if reformed folks are adopting a continuationist position

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There is nothing to stop it from devolving into the zaniness that we see in the

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NAR so basically you're to summarize what you're saying is that when you become a

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Continuationist or a continuous or a non cessationist you are really basing a lot of what you believe and do by or on subjective

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Truth rather than objective truth. Well, Sam Storms. You just wrote a book about it.

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Tom Nettles I think did a very thorough critique of it at founders org But it's it's practicing the prophetic and he stated very clearly that you can expect people to get it wrong a lot and He said those people nevertheless should be quote raucously applauded for their courage to exercise the gift even though They can regularly be wrong.

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Now. Here's my question for Sam or anybody else Where do we see that change in the prophetic being identified in the

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Bible? When did we move from supporting Old Testament prophets and I get the difference, but still

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If they didn't speak rightly for the Lord you got killed because that was the highest crime

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You could commit was speaking wrongly on behalf of God Where do we see that trans that that that office being redefined so that you can make a lot of mistakes?

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Well, Sam explains it and says well God gives the information correctly they you just don't transmit it rightly well

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So the Old Testament prophets they never seem to struggle with that. They said thus saith the

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Lord It was clear. It was precise. It always came to pass when did that change take place and Again, I would simply state that leads to chaos confusion and a lot of hurt and it can't be substantiated

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Biblically, so I would encourage those folks who are intrigued by the

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Continuationist position to think on this long and hard study it biblically, of course study both sides

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But also think about the practical and take a look at the historical We have seen where this has gone in the charismatic movement for the last hundred years

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There is nothing to suggest that the pattern will not be different Even though you slap the title reformed in front of charismatic

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Which I simply believe are our terms that are incompatible when you read the London Baptist Confession when you read the even

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Lutheran Confessions the book of Concord I believe it always starts out with the Bible is the sufficient word of God God is no longer speaking and that is the bedrock of everything else.

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We believe about God if that is removed I don't see how you can even call yourself reformed anymore, right?

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Yeah, I thought I do. Thank God that I Have friends like one in particular who's in heaven right now

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Al Stein Al Stein was the pastor of the Neighborhood Assembly of God in Belmore, Long Island, New York When I first met

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Al he was an Arminian and more open about charismatic phenomenon and by the time

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I don't know eight to ten years later before he went home to be with the Lord after a car accident

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Al was a full -blown five -point Calvinist while still remaining a bishop an overseer in the

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Assembly of God and and his The anything charismatic about his belief system was was so miniscule it had almost evaporated

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It almost really became a theory rather than anything that he was regularly Participating in or teaching and I have another friend who is still with us

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Jim Capo of the Massapequa Church of God who is basically very close in his journey as Al Stein.

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He really calls himself a reformed Baptist who is a

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Continuationist with a very small C But but the men that I know that I am excited about who began as Arminian Pentecostals who have become reformed or Calvinist They seem to have gradually shed and almost completely shed all of that in fact

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Believe it or not both those men. I mentioned Al Stein and Jim Capo Both said that they loved nearly every single word that was uttered at the strange fire conference that John MacArthur conducted and said that there was only about maybe 1 % of what was said that they had a little bit of a problem with but I think that that's pretty remarkable

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Well, I don't think anybody has heard me call anybody a heretic or being a continuationist

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This is this is truly a loving plea to study the issue well and understand your heritage

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Why your forefathers shut the door on this they if you're a

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Calvinist read what John Calvin wrote about this He was decisive and clear, and I don't think that the biblical argument is there to support

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Continuationism and I'm I also believe that if you take a look at the history of these movements

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It's the current NAR movement isn't the first it's been tried a century. It was really tried in the second century already

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So this isn't anything new But we always see the pattern and it never goes to a good place, and there's a reason for it it's because it's not biblical and You can't stop it

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You can't fire tunnels the Bible doesn't say thou shalt not do a fire tunnel

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How can we tell these people? You can't do that when they say look the Bible doesn't say you can't so if we're gonna send somebody through a fire tunnel

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And they're gonna shake and twitch and flop and be set on fire and laugh hysterically and maybe writhe on the floor the

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Bible doesn't Say that can't happen. I Have no way of telling them no against that and neither does the

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Continuationist if we don't believe that the Bible is the authoritative Word of God no other revelations, and it puts guardrails around our

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Part of this Chris is really about regulative and normative to a degree But more specifically it is about asking ourselves the question of sufficiency is

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The Bible everything we need for life and godliness or isn't it you can't say

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I believe that the Bible is sufficient but The Bible is sufficient, but I still think

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God speaks through dreams I believe the Bible is sufficient But he can lead people and he can audibly speak to them or he can give them a liver shipper

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That means that the Bible isn't sufficient, so I challenge Everybody to answer the question of sufficiency can you

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With consistency state that God still speaks, and he has already spoken authoritatively in the word

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That's the big question yes, and I'm assuming even having said all that that you are not opposed to the idea of Someone being a burdened with a specific thought or action

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That they believe the Holy Spirit is leading them to do like for instance You may be out of nowhere think about a dear friend of yours that you haven't spoken to in years and and It may be the the spirits leading for you to contact that person not that it's a new revelation or anything like that Do you are you open to that kind of language or idea?

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The word lead is one that needs to be dealt with really carefully because if you read for instance Romans 8

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The whole idea of the spirit of leading has nothing to do with like a sense Or some sort of a burden it has everything to do with being in alignment with his word and walking the life of sanctification

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No, here's before I answer that question, and I'm not dodging it I won't pull that trick, but here's a question

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Chris And this is just for all of us to think about does something like that that you're describing ever happen to a pagan

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They would say it does yeah, yeah, okay, so now if it can happen to a pagan, and it's happening to a

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Christian We need to ask ourselves the question. What is it, and I think the answer to that question is

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I don't know I Don't know is is it possible that it could be nothing more than it just came to mind

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We've all had thoughts in the truck you know I haven't thought about Jim for the last 20 years for some reason he just popped Look him up on Facebook and give him a call

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Can I definitively say that was the Holy Spirit? No can I definitively say it wasn't no

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So what do I do with that? I call up Jim, and I don't necessarily attribute it to Now if you would like to that's fine

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It turns out Jim is in trouble and he needs some money And you can provide him alone, and it turns out to be a real blessing because he's been praying

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I would put that underneath the umbrella of God's Providence which is

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Phil Johnson who's going to be joining you soon He would say that that that is astounding Can I definitively say that that came from the

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Holy Spirit or from the submarine sandwich that I had or? The answer is we do we just don't know but I don't want to start going down the trail of you know

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God bled me he put this on my heart So I don't think you're supposed to be marrying that person God put this on my heart

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I really just feel like you shouldn't take that job That is a road that just leads to danger so to answer your question sure

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God Of course he can he can bend the heart of the king like a river I I get that you can do that We just never know what he does so I don't think it's safe or wise to use that concept on a regular basis because the

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Answer is we just don't know Amen I agree with every word you just said well

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I would love to have more time with you and hopefully in the future We will have at least an hour to discuss these very meaty deep matters very

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Timely matters important matters and for those of you who are wondering about the

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NAR or new Apostolic Reformation movement a very dangerous movement. I've conducted several interviews exposing the heresies of these of this movement if you want to just look it up on the iron sharpens iron website in the

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Archive just type in new apostolic reformation and those interviews will come up, but I thank you so much

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Todd for being on the show any final words you care to leave with our listeners. Yeah, two things number one

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I hope you did not hear that. This was a screed or I think you're a heretic I think you are

34:06

Orthodox in your beliefs. I love you be careful Study it study the

34:12

Bible and study the history of it and answer the question Is it is my belief insufficiency compatible with God still speak so don't hate you

34:23

Love you. Second thing that I would say is Chris's next guest is way better. So stay tuned

34:30

Well, thank you so much Todd and to repeat your website It's wretched org wretched org and I hope that you return soon and very often the iron sharpens iron radio

34:40

Very grateful for you, sir. You too, brother. Okay. I will god bless you, brother and Coming up as Todd Friel mentioned

34:49

We have Phil Johnson joining us after this station break and he is going to be paying tribute to John MacArthur who is just today entered his 50th year of Gospel ministry today is his 49th anniversary

35:05

Since his inauguration as pastor of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California So don't go away.

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forward slash iron sharpens today Welcome back. This is

38:14

Chris Arns and if you just tuned in to our program today for the following 90 minutes Our guest is

38:20

Phil Johnson the executive director of grace to you The world -renowned media ministry of John MacArthur and today we are going to be celebrating the

38:34

Entrance into John MacArthur's 50th year as a faithful shepherd of Jesus Christ Today is the 49th anniversary of his inauguration

38:45

Into the pastorate at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio

38:53

Phil Johnson Thanks for having me Chris Yeah Very providential that it was just today that I called you to be on the program and you were gracious enough

39:03

With very little notice to come on and it happens to be the 49th anniversary of John's First sermon,

39:09

I believe it is. Yeah, that's the first sermon as pastor of Grace Community Church. He had been a

39:14

He was an extension speaker for Talbot seminary and he'd spoken I think for some of the youth group functions

39:22

At Grace Church, and when they were looking for a pastor, they had him candidate Candidate and they appointed him pastor and his first Sunday as pastor was

39:32

February 9th of 1969 Wow, well, I was seven years old

39:38

Wow, you're younger than I am I was 14 And I actually remember that era fairly

39:45

Well, that was just like three weeks after the inauguration of Richard Nixon his first term as president

39:52

I was in Washington DC for that because I played in a band that marched in the inaugural parade and so having come back from Washington DC I was trying to catch up with my schoolwork and all that and I remember the era on that Sunday There was a massive snowstorm that crippled the entire eastern seaboard at 20 inches of snow in New York City and and At the same time on the west coast here in California.

40:23

It was so balmy that The newspapers were reporting how many people went to the beach

40:30

Yeah, and that was also just an interesting curiosity about that day that day was the first test flight of Boeing 747 in Everett, Washington Wow Yeah, I have more vivid memories of Watching Richard Nixon's resignation speech on television.

40:49

I Remember that too. I can still remember I was in a cabin At Lake Warramogue and in Connecticut I was there with my family on Vacation I can remember us all sitting around watching on the black and white

41:05

TV Richard Nixon resigning But anyway, that's not what we're here to talk about today. We're here to pay tribute to John MacArthur What can you tell us about John MacArthur is?

41:15

the religion of his youth what how was he raised and This providential circumstances that led him to the

41:22

Lord to begin with John is I believe the fifth generation in his family that produced a pastor

41:28

So he comes from a line of pastors his father and his paternal grandfather were both pastors,

41:35

I just edited a book that John's doing on his philosophy of ministry and he starts by Recalling the fact that his grandfather

41:45

Who died when John was just a youth? I think I he was nine years old or so when his grandfather died of cancer he he says that his grandfather had prepared a sermon on heaven and Then became too sick to to deliver it

42:00

And his is one of his dying wishes was that he he could have one more Opportunity to preach because they had this sermon prepared and it was burning inside him and John says his father

42:11

Took the the sermon that his grandfather had had Prepared and had it printed up at the funeral and so the way

42:19

John always says it is that his grandfather preached on heaven from heaven Wow, so his grandfather was a faithful pastor who?

42:28

Died while still serving the Lord in ministry and John's father died in 2005 just about 13 years ago.

42:38

He was 91 and he was active in ministry Right up until his death so John comes from this line of very faithful pastors and and It was sort of in his blood and and in his

42:54

Upbringing to know what's involved in being a pastor what it's like in a pastor's home and all of that Do you know anything about the denominational affiliation or the ecclesiology and soteriology of this?

43:07

Background that John was raised in. I don't know about his grandfather. His father was Baptistic, but I think an independent

43:15

Who had ties early to the fundamentalist movement, but he moved away a little bit from the sort of militant fundamentalists who were

43:25

Maybe a little bit over enthusiastic in their separatism. So John's father was a conservative evangelical

43:32

I think John's father if I recall correctly Served for a while as an extension speaker for Moody Bible Institute Wow So that that pretty much shows you where his doctrine was

43:45

Moody is of course a independent non -denominational school, but conservative evangelical

43:52

Moody up until the time I graduated from there Stayed faithful to the gospel, but without any attachment to any denomination for more than a hundred years

44:04

So That was that was sort of the theological heritage it was I would call it maybe generic evangelicalism

44:12

So I'm assuming that John himself was from that background when he entered into the ministry, right?

44:19

Yeah, he went to a Talbot theological seminary, which was Talbot had been founded in the wake of DL Moody's, you know influence and one of the early presidents of Talbot or Biola it was a offshoot of the

44:35

Bible Institute of Los Angeles Biola One of the early presidents there was RA Torrey who was an associate and affiliate of DL Moody's more theologically minded than Moody but of the same sort of doctrinal stripe

44:52

Now a one thing that that may surprise a lot of Iron sharpens iron radio listeners, especially our younger listeners who are

45:05

Absolutely in love with the preaching and teaching ministry of John MacArthur Many of them may be this may be surprised that he has not been a five -point

45:14

Calvinist very long Relatively speaking. I mean this is a fairly recent phenomenon in his history, isn't it?

45:24

Well, not as recent maybe not as recent as it feels because time speeds up the older you get

45:30

I remember actually the Sunday when I realized

45:35

John had John Hughes on on the extent of the atonement that was Really?

45:41

I think the the one point of Calvinism that early on he was a little bit

45:47

Maybe undecided on is the right way to say it But in it was 1995 in February On the

45:57

Sunday of the Shepherds Conference that he preached. He was preaching from 2nd Corinthians chapter 5

46:04

Which you know has verses in there like Christ if Christ died for all then we're all dead And I think in studying that passage in its context

46:13

John came to the realization that look if we're gonna affirm Substitutionary atonement if Christ is the substitute for those who are saved in there there must be some sense and in fact

46:26

It's necessary that you have to say there is there is some sense in which Christ was

46:32

Stood in Peter's place and bore his punishment in a way that he didn't for Judas.

46:38

Judas is if we believe The the implications of what Christ said to him that it would be better for him if he'd never been born

46:46

The assumption is Judas is in hell right now paying the price of his own sins So Christ was not his substitute in the same way that he was

46:56

Peter's substitute I think I think the weight of The evidence in favor of substitutionary atonement and and the idea that Christ in a in a special way

47:10

Relates to the elect and believers in a way that he doesn't to unbelievers sort of forced

47:16

John to To understand that there is an aspect of the atonement that you just cannot say applies universally and so since 1995 he's been

47:30

I think he's been more free to identify himself as a Calvinist if you'd asked him before that he would have said yeah

47:36

I'm Calvinistic, but you know like a 4 .75 Calvinist or so Yeah, I guess time does fly by faster than I Realized but I didn't know that it was not

47:49

When I had first discovered in fact, I first discovered John MacArthur's preaching and teaching ministry really nearly immediately after becoming a born -again believer myself in the mid 80s and At that time it seemed that He he was

48:09

More publicly aligned with Arminian dispensationalist. It seemed anyway, but then of course the

48:17

The shot that was heard around the world Was fired through the publishing of the gospel according to Jesus which lost

48:26

John a lot of friends Tell us about right. Well, yeah, that was definitely a shot at classic sort of Schofield Ian the classic

48:37

Schofield Ian view of Soteriology and and and I think his chief opponents in that debate were

48:45

Dallas seminary style Dispensationalists, that's no secret Interestingly to that book if you read the opening pages starts with a very strong declaration of the sovereignty of God it sounds it reads like a

49:00

Calvinist manifesto and of course that's that was written in the 80s. So it shows you that John's John's heart and convictions his understanding of soteriology were already dominated by the his conviction that God is sovereign in the process of Salvation amen and He very quickly after that book was published became more known to be publicly sharing podiums with folks like RCU Sproul and a lot of folks from within the

49:34

Reformed movement and speaking at conferences That reformed Christians were conducting and of course, we're right reformed

49:41

Christian bookstores like bookstores within Very confessionally reformed churches were selling that book like hotcakes this that was a very popular book amongst

49:51

Calvinist Christians Yeah, that's right It had two prefaces and one was written by a J. I.

49:56

Packer who of course well known as a Calvinist and the other was James Montgomery Boyce who was Perhaps one of the most articulate and dignified reformed voices of the 20th century and So, yeah, it was that was

50:12

That book was definitely a turning point not necessarily in John's own thinking because the interesting thing is if you go back to that first Sunday in February of 1969

50:24

The sermon John preached which we still have on tape And listen to it on the

50:29

Grace to you website gty .org Look for the sermon titled how to play church.

50:35

That was the very first sermon John preached as Pastor of Grace Community Church and and it sounds like a chapter taken out of the gospel according to Jesus It's all about you know, how

50:48

Jesus preached the gospel what it means to believe It's a warning against false conversion

50:54

It's pretty much every theme that you find in the gospel according to Jesus You will find in that very first message that John preached.

51:02

It's a long message to in those days He maybe didn't watch the clock As closely as he does today

51:10

It's it that's a great sermon and we still occasionally broadcast it on the radio, which is amazing

51:16

I don't know that there's any other pastor in America who's been in the pulpit for 50 years

51:22

Whose very first sermon is broadcast worthy But you have that with John and in the same themes that Dominated that first sermon have pretty much dominated the entirety of John's ministry and that is the substance of what he was saying in the gospel according to Jesus, but the book was a turning point because prior to that the books

51:44

John had written were topical Not entirely topically done one on the

51:50

Lord's prayer and he'd done one on the Beatitudes both by Moody Press, but the editors who helped in The in the compilation of that material and and editing it

52:03

I think actually edited too much of the depth out of it they were interested more in making it readable and and Entertaining I don't know what but Those books you can speed read the gospel according to Jesus was a serious look at Biblical and doctrinal issues, you know, it's filled with footnotes and documentation that it's not the sort of light reading that you'd do

52:29

You know in two evenings it's it's a book that challenges how you think and how you understand theology and From that point on John has always written two kinds of books

52:43

One is for the you know, young Christian or new layman who? Who doesn't want something theologically profound or heavy

52:52

The other the other style of book you get from John is a is a pretty serious usually a critique or an analysis of some

53:01

Dangerous trend in the church and that's what the gospel according to Jesus was John looked at how the gospel was being

53:08

He proclaimed in the evangelical movement and he said this is didn't even sound like the message

53:13

Jesus preached And in fact my relationship with John goes all the way back to the late 70s when

53:21

I first met him I was working at Moody Press and The first time I met him

53:27

I was like the first sentence I said to him after introducing myself was I I've been listening to your preaching on First John and you need to do a book on the

53:36

Lordship Controversy and his response was immediately. He'd clearly fought this through and he intended to do it

53:43

He said I'm planning a book like that He said I even have a title in mind the gospel according to Jesus because he said

53:49

I want to demonstrate How Jesus preached the gospel? So his thinking was that well -formed about that book more than a decade before it ever came out

54:00

And we'll pick right up where we left off there When we return from our station break, this is our midway break, which is longer than our normal break

54:08

So, please be patient with us because grace life radio in Lake City, Florida requires a 12 -minute break between our 54 254 minute segments

54:18

So write your questions now and send them to Chris Ornson at gmail .com

54:23

If you have a question for Phil Johnson about John MacArthur, don't go away. God willing We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors

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Bringing new life to your home Hi, I'm pastor

01:00:26

Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

01:00:33

Eastern Time on WL ie radio www .wl ie 540 a .m.

01:00:41

Dot -com We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions

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Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

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Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pass welcome back

01:01:00

This is Chris Arnzen If you just tuned in to iron Sherpins iron radio, our guest today is

01:01:06

Phil Johnson the executive director of grace to you the media ministry of world -renowned

01:01:13

Bible teacher and author and conference speaker and pastor John MacArthur we are celebrating

01:01:19

John's entrance into his 50th year of Ministry as a faithful shepherd of the gospel today happens to be

01:01:29

Providentially his 49th anniversary of his inaugural a sermon at grace

01:01:35

Community Church in Sun Valley California if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own.

01:01:41

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris arnzen at gmail .com

01:01:47

And please give us at least your first name your city and state in your country of residence

01:01:52

If you live outside of the USA Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter we can understand that if you have something that perhaps you

01:02:07

Agree with John MacArthur on but disagree with your own pastor on or perhaps it's something the reverse

01:02:13

And you'd rather not draw attention to yourself We can understand that and We will grant your request

01:02:23

To remain anonymous but other than that Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA and Also, we have coming up. I just want to give a couple of announcements about special events

01:02:40

The spirit of the age and the age of the spirit is the theme of the Philadelphia conference on reform theology coming up April 13th through the 15th at the first Christian Reform Church of Byron Center in Byron Center, Michigan And then also it's going to be held the 27th through the 28th of April at the

01:03:06

Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania the plenary speakers include

01:03:12

Daniel Aiken Richard Gaffin Daniel Hyde Conrad M. Bayway and Richard Phillips and Workshop speakers include

01:03:21

Jonathan Master David Murray and Scott Oliphant and if you would like to register for this conference whether For the

01:03:29

Byron Center, Michigan conference or the Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania conference or both go to Alliance net org

01:03:36

Alliance net org and Please tell them that you heard about The conferences from Chris Arns and an iron sharpens iron radio

01:03:46

Oh, and also by the way, click on events when you go to Alliance net org, and you'll be given a list of all the events that the

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and put advertising in the subject line and As long as whatever it is your church your parachurch ministry your business your professional practice or your special event if As long as whatever it is your advertising is compatible with the theology.

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We express an iron sharpens iron radio We would love to launch an ad campaign with you. You don't have to believe exactly identically with me but you do need to be promoting something that is at least compatible with the theology that we

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Defend and proclaim on this program. So we look forward to hearing from you if indeed you want to advertise now we are back with our guest

01:06:56

Phil Johnson executive director of grace to you ministries the Ministry the media ministry of world -renowned

01:07:04

Bible teacher Author conference speaker and pastor John MacArthur. We are celebrating today his entrance into his half century of Of Bible preaching and gospel ministry

01:07:19

Today is his 49th anniversary of the inauguration of his entrance into the pastorate at Grace Gospel Church In Sun Valley, California If you'd like to join us on the air

01:07:31

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com and before I go to any of our listener questions

01:07:36

Phil I'd like you to just pick up where you left off there You were talking about how you initially began to correspond with John MacArthur and he was appreciative of your literary gifts

01:07:46

I believe and if you could pick it up from there Yeah, actually, I met him face to face at a meeting at Moody Press And it was the it was the first meeting with the editors who

01:07:58

Moody was planning to have work on the MacArthur New Testament commentary series that series of commentaries on each book of the

01:08:06

New Testament. That's now complete Originally that was planned to be about a 10 -year project and they were going to use multiple editors to Compile that material from John's sermon transcripts and what nobody really considered in the early days was that?

01:08:21

All those all of those manuscripts and all of the edited material then has to go through John He's the funnel through which everything needed to go plus at the rate

01:08:30

He was preaching there was no way for him to finish the New Testament in 10 years So the project turned into a 35 year long project, which was good good for the commentaries good for Grace Church good for John but I happen to meet him at that first meeting when he came to Moody Press to to be with us as editors and I had listened to him on the radio since the beginning

01:08:53

It really literally the opening week of grace to you when it premiered on the radio in 1978 or 1979

01:09:01

I guess it was and I Lived in Tampa, Florida, which was one of the three cities that that Began carrying grace to you from the very beginning.

01:09:14

So I must have been one of the earliest people on the On the radio and I very quickly sort of became

01:09:20

Addicted to John I guess you would say just addicted to his teaching. It was the the best Spiritual food

01:09:28

I would get all week just listening to him usually through headphones Well, what are my responsibilities?

01:09:34

I was an assistant pastor and youth pastor and one of my responsibilities was mowing the the church lawn there in Florida And I'd ride around writing lawnmower with headphones on listening to John MacArthur teach in the book of Acts and first John and it just revolutionized my view of doctrine and what the depth of preaching ought to be and and The way

01:10:00

I thought about the gospel There came a time there where while I was already in youth ministry

01:10:06

And I realized if somebody asked me to write out a succinct account of the gospel

01:10:13

I'm I'm not sure I could do it. Well and From listening to John and the pieces began to sort of fall into place

01:10:20

And I remember thinking every time I would hear him I I would love my background was editing and I'd been a book editor

01:10:28

And and I still did some of that as freelance editor. I used to think I would love to edit his material

01:10:34

And and help get it in print. And so when Moody proposed this commentary series I was thrilled to to actually be considered to be part of it in the end

01:10:45

I went back to work at Moody Press full -time as their acquisitions editor because they were beginning to do

01:10:52

John MacArthur's work and I thought I Would love to work with John on some of his stuff.

01:10:58

So in 1981 I went back to Moody Press for my second tour of duty there and one of the first Things I did was write

01:11:07

John a contract for the gospel according to Jesus it's interesting story how that because that's not a

01:11:13

Moody Press book Moody ultimately gave up on the project and If you want to hear the story of why

01:11:19

I'll tell it but oh, yeah, definitely I guess I'm dying to hear that how they dropped the ball on that one

01:11:26

But in the meantime, I began I began editing a couple of other books That Moody had when

01:11:32

I came back to work there they were halfway through the editorial work on a book called the family and I helped to finish that and then sort of took over the

01:11:40

MacArthur projects at Moody and the first book that I edited You know Single -handedly from sermon transcripts to help

01:11:47

John get this into a book with a book called the ultimate priority on a series he had done The sermon series is called true worship

01:11:54

So it's a book about worship and when I finished that one day John said to me You should you should just quit your job and would you press and come to work for me?

01:12:03

And I said, okay, and he said no, I'm serious You need to pray about this and talk it over with your wife and I said, you know,

01:12:10

I've already done all that Let's do it and literally within a few weeks I was on staff here at Grace to you and living in Southern, California.

01:12:21

I've been here ever since coming up on my 35th anniversary So anyway the

01:12:28

That Moody had the contract on the gospel according to Jesus They had done a book about three years prior to that by James Boyce called

01:12:36

Christ's call to discipleship the book still in print It's a great book and in the opening chapter of that book

01:12:42

Boyce touches on the Lordship controversy and He had a footnote where he disagreed with something

01:12:51

Charles Ryrie had said Ryrie was Moody's number one author in those days they had the

01:12:56

Ryrie study Bible and all of Ryrie's books had been Moody press books all his significant books and Someone in the administration at Moody When They realized that Boyce had actually disagreed with Charles Ryrie in a

01:13:12

Moody press book. They they called in the The top brass from Moody press and said this will never happen again we're not going to have an author who disagrees with Charles Ryrie and So at that time the head head person at Moody press was

01:13:28

Jerry Jenkins Who helped write, you know, the he's the co -author of the left -behind series, right?

01:13:36

And Jerry called me up. I was already in California working for John MacArthur and and in my spare time

01:13:42

Doing editorial work on the gospel according to Jesus and I think we had a deadline that was still about two years away and Jerry said

01:13:53

That book that you're working on with John McCarthy. He's not going to disagree with Charles Ryrie, is he I?

01:14:00

Said well, yeah, I you know, that's kind of the whole thrust of the book and he says well Is there any way to do without mentioning

01:14:07

Ryrie's name? And I said no I mean we were three -quarters of the way through the book at that point it was full of footnotes and quotes and I said

01:14:15

No, Jerry, really not and he said then we're gonna have to Drop the contract on that book

01:14:21

I can't be a Moody press book and to be honest with you that afternoon when he told me that I was kind of relieved

01:14:28

Because I thought I'll take some pressure off a deadline. I can work on this book at a slower pace and and You know do a more thorough job or whatever and the pressure was off but the very next day

01:14:40

I got a phone call from Stan Gundry who was an editor at and I think still is at Sondervan and Apparently, there's quite a grapevine in the publishing world he said

01:14:51

I heard that Moody press dropped a book dropped the contract on that Lordship book that MacArthur's working on and I was surprised he'd heard that but he said

01:15:01

We'd like to do it, but he said we want to release it next year at the Christian Booksellers Association Convention so we really need the manuscript by the end of this calendar year.

01:15:12

Do you think you can do that? and so I literally pushed everything else aside and finished the manuscript by the end of that year and it was published in July of The following I can't remember was 89 88 or 89.

01:15:27

I think it was 88 that the book came out and Yeah, I became a

01:15:33

Sondervan book Moody Moody couldn't publish it for political reasons Wow, I'm sure they regret it now because Moody seems to be cranking out some very good stuff

01:15:43

I can't speak for everything that they're publishing, but they are publishing some very fine Well, they stayed to their credit they stayed with the

01:15:51

MacArthur commentary series, which is a great set of very helpful practical commentaries

01:15:58

Yeah, and they do provide an iron trip and Zion radio with books to not only give away at our pastors luncheons but also to give away to Listeners who who write in questions when we have a guest that they've published the gospel according to Jesus Was the very first Christian book given to me as a gift when

01:16:19

I was a very new Christian my very first Christian girlfriend Barbara gave that book to me and I remember just totally being enthralled with it.

01:16:31

I Happen to be a member of a very solid Church When I first became a

01:16:38

Christian having come out of Roman Catholicism Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, which later became

01:16:44

Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island after it merged with First Baptist Church of Merrick, but it was a solidly

01:16:51

Calvinist Church and a very strong view of lordship salvation And I remember being fascinated by the book because it actually shocked me

01:17:00

That there were so many professedly Bible believing Christians Who believed that you could live like Satan himself

01:17:09

Immediately after making a profession of faith and you would still be welcomed into heaven even decades later of living in rebellion

01:17:18

That's boggled my mind. I did not know of How that had permeated the evangelical church and yeah, you know,

01:17:25

I hear you on that Chris as I dug into the subject It just became more and more

01:17:33

Bizarre what what people on the other side were saying? In fact, the gospel according Jesus sparked a couple of books in response

01:17:40

Zane Hodges wrote one Charles Ryrie wrote one And there was a controversy for a brief time

01:17:46

John MacArthur followed it up with a second book that was originally titled faith works It's available now as the gospel according to the

01:17:52

Apostles. Yes a sequel, you know, yes That was these that was the subtitle

01:17:58

Initially as well wasn't it the guy that was that was originally a subtitle It made it the main title gospel according to the

01:18:05

Apostles and when I was doing Research for that I came across a book that I think had been written to address the lordship

01:18:11

Controversy and it started with an illustration of a guy who said look I had a friend a pastor friend who

01:18:18

I'm certain was Genuinely saved who's in prison now because he was this guy was robbing banks to pay for prostitutes

01:18:26

And the guy writing the book said I'm absolutely convinced he was a genuine Christian And it said but that was the common idea that if you make a profession of faith, that's really all you have to do

01:18:40

It's a it's a step shy of the sacramentalism that used to say look if you're baptized then

01:18:47

Then you're in now. I was Now it was just if you make a profession of faith you're in Now the writing of that book that lost

01:18:57

John some some very close friends, didn't it? I mean, I'm not gonna mention the person's name but I remember

01:19:06

Hearing years ago perhaps it was the late 80s early 90s a missionary in Brazil Told me that a very famous everybody or at least 99 % of the people listening to this program would recognize this person's name

01:19:22

Who hosts his own television program and radio ministry? prolific writer and so on This missionary told me over dinner that that specific person that I'm talking about that very famous televangelist author radio preacher had dropped him his his church had dropped him as a missionary

01:19:45

Because he published or should I say? Yeah, I guess you could say published he published the gospel according to Jesus in Portuguese, right?

01:19:54

Yeah, I know the case you're talking about of corresponded with with that missionary and it's exactly right

01:20:00

He announced he was going to publish that book in Portuguese And I think it was the mission board that he had been sent out under dropped his support

01:20:10

He had to suddenly raise support to stay on the mission field and he actually has one of the more successful Evangelical publishing companies in Brazil Yeah, and so that wasn't that individual who?

01:20:26

Pastors the church that dropped that missionary wasn't he a close friend of John's at one time?

01:20:33

You know, I honestly I don't know who you're talking about so I don't know Oh, I don't think

01:20:38

I don't think John lost too many close friends over that because it really wasn't for anybody who knew

01:20:44

John Or had ever heard him preach There was nothing about that book that was shocking or knew or that he'd never done before aside from the fact that he mentioned

01:20:53

Ryrie by name and Zane Hodges by name and Disagreed with people by name that wasn't done typically in 1980s in books that dealt with theological issues.

01:21:03

You just nobody wanted controversy but There were there were

01:21:10

I think a number of Christian leaders who weren't necessarily close friends of John But mainly men who had some strong political tie to the opposite view, you know

01:21:21

Some tie to Dallas Seminary or Charles Ryrie or whatever Who?

01:21:29

who You know from that point on they never asked John to speak again or whatever. Yeah, and I just realized who you're talking about Because I was gonna say

01:21:39

I'll tell you off the air and you'll definitely recognize his name. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely I just realized who you're talking about.

01:21:45

You're right. You're right The didn't did not

01:21:52

Grace Community Church of Sun Valley, California suffer a loss after that book lost numerically in his in regard to the congregation

01:22:00

No, not over that issue. Really? Like I said, John had preached on those themes from his very first Sunday in the pulpit, you know, it's a it's a controversy that comes up Maybe it with individuals even every now and then now where somebody will say well, that's they'll they'll have read some

01:22:23

Diatribe that somebody published as well if John's teaching lordship salvation, then then

01:22:28

I don't want to be there So there are occasionally people who who raise that issue as a matter of controversy at Grace Church But for the most part for the overwhelming majority of anyone who's been at Grace Church for any length of time and listened

01:22:43

That book was not in any way a surprise It was a compilation of things

01:22:49

John had preached over all the years And in fact, that's the interesting thing about that book because of the title John chose the gospel according to Jesus when when we laid out that book

01:22:59

John sat down with me and said here's what I want to cover and and He wanted it all drawn from the

01:23:04

Gospels from Jesus preaching from from Jesus Interaction with individuals like the woman at the well or Nicodemus or whatever.

01:23:12

So this is literally the gospel according to Jesus. How did Jesus? Reach out to lost people.

01:23:18

What did he say? What did he demand of them? What did you know? What kind of response did he did he expect and and require and so the book is based on material

01:23:29

That was taken from the Gospels But it ranged over when when when we were editing that book was in the 1980s

01:23:37

John had been at Grace Church nearly 20 years then which Frankly in the 1980s that seemed like a long time for one pastor to be in one place 20 years now.

01:23:47

It's 50 but Those those sermons that you find that were in that book.

01:23:54

They're the basis of the chapters in the book Spanned all 20 years So Those were themes

01:24:02

John had been preaching from the beginning Nobody at Grace Church was really floored by the stand that book took.

01:24:08

In fact, most of us I Think were were shocked by the force of the reaction to it.

01:24:14

I expected that the book would be somewhat controversial and I Hoped it would sell really well

01:24:22

Zonovan Was pretty aggressive with it and and when they did the first printing as I recall they printed 20 ,000 copies and Having come from Moody Press where 20 ,000 copies would have been a massive book for us we we would consider a book successful if it sold we would keep it in print anyway if it sold 3 ,000 copies a year a

01:24:45

Successful book would be anything over 7 ,000 20 ,000 copies would be

01:24:52

Extraordinary but particularly for a book that's dealing with a issue of theological controversy

01:24:59

My hope before I was published with it Zonovan isn't isn't you know thinking too too large?

01:25:05

But by the end of the first year, I think it had sold a hundred thousand copies They'd had to go back to press three or four times

01:25:13

Which absolutely amazed me I don't think there was any book written in the late 20th century to deal with a point of theology a single doctrine

01:25:25

That outsold that book The the one that would be prior to that would be the battle for the

01:25:31

Bible by Harold Lindsell that book Likewise created a large controversy and provoked a lot of sales

01:25:37

I don't know how the two books compare in terms of sales figures, but both of them were

01:25:43

Surprisingly successful and far -reaching in their influence One thing that I really kick myself about is

01:25:53

Losing something that was very precious to me. It got lost somehow in a storage locker or something but I remember years ago when when

01:26:05

John's Wife was seriously injured in an automobile accident. I Had wrote a card

01:26:13

To Grace Community Church to John to pass on to his wife who thankfully recovered

01:26:19

But he wrote me back a handwritten letter Wasn't very long It was a brief letter

01:26:25

But but the fact that he took the time to write me a handwritten letter blew me away Thanking me for the card that I had sent him.

01:26:33

Yeah, that's nice. You know if he does Write a personal letter like that if he's not dictating it to the secretary.

01:26:40

He will write it by hand He doesn't use a computer or anything like that. And usually he writes things out with a fountain pen

01:26:47

Which I love I love to see you know a note from John in his own handwriting Yeah, so why that's why

01:26:54

I kick myself that I lost it but perhaps who knows you'll find it in the pages of a book someday

01:27:03

Probably will or if you don't somebody will buy a book in a used bookstore and find that a hundred years from now and it'll

01:27:09

Be it'll be worth something And well, I'm gonna go to our final break right now and I'm also when

01:27:17

I'm doing that I am emailing to you or forwarding to you a

01:27:23

An email a question from Joe in Slovenia Who has written us a question?

01:27:31

So if you could take a look at that question during the station break To give you time to mull it over and then

01:27:37

I'll ask it to you when we returned Okay, if anybody else would like to join us

01:27:43

In fact, there are another or several of you still waiting and we'll get to as many of you as time will allow

01:27:49

But if you want to get in line in hopes that we can fit you in our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com

01:27:55

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if indeed you live

01:28:04

Outside of the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter

01:28:11

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01:34:53

Does that mean as some teach even some men we we would respect teach that well

01:34:58

Then you're not obliged to forgive until someone repents because God doesn't forgive us until we repent or should our forgiveness be offered freely without condition

01:35:10

And It's a great discussion that sort of analyzes everything Jesus said about forgiveness and why that theme is so prominent in his teaching and his exhortations to the disciples

01:35:21

Great book. Yes. In fact, you were kind enough to ship a hundred copies of that book out to The iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon and every pastor that attended that walked out with a free copy of that book

01:35:35

Yeah, I love that book And in fact it at the end of it because it's about forgiveness and including the forgiveness of sins

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God's forgiveness of us As I recall, there's an appendix in there that discusses the atonement

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01:36:09

First listener question Joe in Slovenia says thanks so much for having Phil Johnson back often

01:36:15

He is such a blessing to us all This is more of a comment than a question the most influential thing that I've heard from.

01:36:22

Dr John MacArthur and this is my best recollection was to the effect that when I started in ministry

01:36:28

I would have never imagined that my ministry would be most characterized by saving the gospel from Evangelicals the reason right?

01:36:38

This is the reason this is so meaningful to me Is that as a foreign missionary that issue has characterized a large portion of my ministry efforts overseas?

01:36:47

Patterned after dr. MacArthur and dr. RC Sproul and others if you could comment on his comment Yeah, he's right.

01:36:54

I've heard John say that a number of times he talks about how in seminary He studied apologetics and he was preparing himself thinking that as he got in the ministry

01:37:03

He'd have to defend the gospel and the authority of Scripture against atheism skepticism, you know

01:37:10

Secularism and all these attacks from the outside And he says what he never dreamed was that the majority of his ministry would be spent trying to rescue the gospel from errors created by Evangelicals who just don't get it or who corrupt the gospel or who who?

01:37:30

shave off the difficult parts of the gospel change it to suit themselves or whatever and that's true if you think about the the books that dominate the

01:37:43

John MacArthur's Record, you know the things he's written that I think are the most important the most memorable

01:37:50

Practically all of them deal with one or the other aspect of gospel truth that he's defending against some

01:37:57

Corruption or attack that has come from within the church well, thank you Joe in Slovenia and Thank you also for providing us with an

01:38:06

American address where your daughter lives in Georgia Because we are sending to her on your behalf

01:38:16

A copy of the book John MacArthur And this is a biography by Ian Murray John MacArthur is servant of the word and flock

01:38:31

This is a phenomenal book published by banner of truth

01:38:36

Retailing for $26. You're getting that absolutely free of charge Thanks to the generosity of banner of truth and also thanks to the generosity of cvbbs .com

01:38:46

who is shipping that out to you We have a book by the way, you know that that book came out of John's 30th anniversary celebration.

01:38:56

I believe we asked Ian Murray to write a short sort of tribute to John and he and Ian Murray who is

01:39:03

Probably my favorite living biographer any biography. He writes is worth reading

01:39:09

And so we thought just do a sketch of John's life and we put it it was a chapter -length

01:39:16

Overview we put it in a book that we produced that Included some of John's landmark sermons over the years and offered that then to our people on our mailing list for free

01:39:29

And I so much enjoyed Ian Murray's a sketch of John MacArthur's life that I said to him that is so great

01:39:36

I wish you could develop it into a full biography and never known him to write a biography of a living person

01:39:43

But he he said that's a great idea and it sparked the thought in him that he wanted to do that so he came out spent some time in California here in my office sort of scouring through files of Correspondence and records that we have and and it was kind of fun to To help him put that together

01:40:01

And I love the book. I just love the book. It's a great tribute to John Well, I'm sure that banner of truth will love hearing that promo and if you want more details on that book

01:40:11

You could go to banner of truth org banner of truth org, or you can go to CV bbs .com

01:40:17

CV bbs .com and order that book if you don't win it today I'm wondering I have to ask banner of truth is if this is the only book that they have published that pays tribute to a dispensationalist

01:40:29

Would be interesting to find out we have Let's see

01:40:35

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York. Oh, this is a great question

01:40:41

He says could you please tell us something about John that you think would surprise?

01:40:47

most of the iron sharpens iron radio listeners obviously Provide us with this information that you think

01:40:54

John would be comfortable with us You know, that's it. That is a really hard question because One of the extraordinary things about John is what you see in public is exactly what you get in private.

01:41:06

He there is no There's no other side to him. And in fact Some people might argue that it's dysfunctional because all he ever does is

01:41:16

Study the Bible preach when I if I go to lunch with him, we don't make small talk about you know things in popular culture we typically talk about theological issues or Biblical things the same kinds of things he writes and preaches about that's what's constantly on his mind and it's only recreation

01:41:36

That I'm aware of on a regular basis is he plays golf but I Don't think he watches much television.

01:41:46

I think he watches a few sporting events and things like that. But his

01:41:52

His private life is pretty much like his public life. He's the most consistent person I've ever

01:41:57

Known and the most disciplined person I've ever known Well, guess what

01:42:03

Ronald you also won a you have also won a free copy of the book by Ian Murray on John MacArthur So make sure we have your full mailing address

01:42:12

So you can have that shipped out to you by CB bbs .com and we thank The folks at banner of truth once again for the generosity.

01:42:20

We have Joey answer Let me answer that question though once because why you're thinking about I thought of something that I think would surprise a lot of people

01:42:27

John was actually once arrested in Mississippi Really? Back in the back of the 1960s.

01:42:35

He he was doing some work with Perkins I forget his first name, but he's a black preacher who

01:42:44

Took John on a tour of the South preaching in mostly African -american communities and schools and and all of that and some redneck sheriff in Mississippi arrested them for disturbing the peace

01:42:58

Because you had a white guy preaching to black people. This was back in the 60s Wow, and yeah

01:43:05

That's that's that's phenomenal I once did a blog post about that and I just titled it

01:43:12

John MacArthur arrested in Mississippi Was he happy about that title

01:43:20

He never said anything to me about it But I got tons of instant blowback from people who who thought what this happened this afternoon.

01:43:28

What did he do? We have

01:43:35

Joey in Clifton, New Jersey Dear Phil, thanks for all the work

01:43:40

Thanks for all the work you do even though the credit does not always go your way

01:43:45

My question for you while errors stay the same they also progress I am wondering what you see as the types of controversies that John MacArthur Most deals with now in recent days.

01:43:59

We might be Expecting him to devote his publishing efforts in defending against errors of our day question mark

01:44:07

Where might I guess it was a better way of phrasing that where might we expect him to devote his publishing efforts in defending?

01:44:14

defending errors Against errors of our day. Yeah, you know, I have this theory that there really are only maybe three or four categories of error serious error heresy and soteriological crystallogical and and you know theology proper and Attacks on the authority or sufficiency of Scripture and One way or the other

01:44:37

I think pretty much error Every error John MacArthur has ever dealt with or ever will deal with Falls into one of those categories either.

01:44:46

It's an attack on on the gospel itself an attempt to manipulate soteriology to either put in works or Justify antinomian ism or whatever.

01:44:59

So there are those soteriological errors or it's an attack on the

01:45:04

Person or deity of Christ or the doctrine of the Trinity that's a surprisingly big issue right now

01:45:11

Attacks on the Trinity the theology proper or Christology. I'd sort of make that one category and and then the third category would be

01:45:20

Scripture the authority and sufficiency of Scripture and I Think probably the it seems to me that in and and I've never been really good at predicting these things

01:45:32

But it seems to me that in the near future the the controversy you can expect to rise most to the

01:45:40

Forefront would be on the charismatic issue the sufficiency of Scripture the reality or not of miracle claims and You know apostolic gifts things like that Of course

01:45:56

John has already dealt with that numerous times He wrote a book called the charismatics charismatic chaos right and strange fire

01:46:03

For for John's 50th anniversary next year. We're planning another conference like strange fire

01:46:11

But it'll be a little broader than that. We're gonna we're gonna make the theme the sufficiency of Scripture so it'll deal with certain charismatic issues, but other things as well and That will be a big sort of Jubilee celebration to commemorate the 50th anniversary of John MacArthur's Being pastor and also the 50th anniversary of grace to you as an organization

01:46:33

Well, thanks, Joey and Clifton, New Jersey make sure you give us your full mailing address because you've also won a free copy of John MacArthur servant of the word and flock

01:46:44

Thanks to our friends at banner of truth and CV BBS comm we have

01:46:51

We have Christopher in South Central, Pennsylvania Christopher says this is providential because of what you just said

01:47:03

Christopher asks has John's strange fire conference put him at greater odds with some

01:47:12

Former colleagues with whom he spoke at conferences such as the together for the gospel conference which included charismatics

01:47:22

You know in all honesty, I don't think it's put him at odds with them at all None of them were surprised to know that John is not a charismatic and that he thinks you know certain charismatic claims and practices are a threat to our confidence in the

01:47:39

Authority and sufficiency of scriptures. Nobody was surprised by that. I think the key guy in the

01:47:46

Together for the gospel group would be John Piper. He's best known as a continuationist in a sympathetic with Certain charismatic doctrines and all that.

01:47:56

I don't think I don't think the personal Friendship between John MacArthur and John Piper was in any way harmed by that they both knew they disagreed on that issue to begin with and Piper wrote what

01:48:10

I thought was a pretty good A very kind response to strange fire

01:48:16

And I have to say even overall beyond the question of You know key

01:48:22

Christian leaders whom John is affiliated with who might hold a different view on continuationism than he the the feedback we've gotten has been overwhelmingly positive positive because So many of the things that we dealt with in the strange fire conference in the strange fire book are just crying to be addressed

01:48:42

There were only one or two voices and they tended to come from the extreme charismatic side

01:48:49

Rodney Howard Brown was really upset by the by the conference and Michael Brown as well

01:48:57

Besides those two. I haven't really gotten Any direct pushback from charismatic leaders

01:49:04

Oh the the really bizarre charismatics the televangelists that you see seem to mostly ignore it

01:49:13

So but Everywhere I've gone that's been four years since is it three or four years since we did the strange fire conference

01:49:21

But everywhere I've gone every conference I've spoken at every church. I visited and really I can't think of a significant exception

01:49:27

I always meet people who say That conference was very helpful to me or the book helped lead me out of charismatic confusion

01:49:36

So I think the overall the overall response we've gotten is just Far more positive than negative.

01:49:44

Yeah. Well interestingly enough. I even mentioned I can't remember if I mentioned it on air or not when

01:49:49

I was speaking with Todd Friel earlier I Told him about a very dear friend of mine who is now with the

01:49:56

Lord. He tragically was killed in an automobile accident but he was a an

01:50:02

Assemblies of God pastor and not only a pastor but a bishop an overseer in the

01:50:08

Assembly of God Al Stein and As long as I've known Al which goes back to the early 1990s

01:50:18

Al was a great Admirer of John MacArthur, even though he was a

01:50:24

Pentecostal pastor and the years that I knew Al he grew more and more committed to the doctrines of sovereign grace and less and less really identifying with Pentecostalism he never became a cessationist, but he

01:50:40

He that just that just faded that the area of his life that involved charismatic

01:50:46

Phenomenon really faded into the background and he told me because he was He was tragically killed after Sometime after the strange fire conference.

01:50:56

He told me that he agreed with 99 % of everything that was said there yeah, honestly,

01:51:02

I think if you Nobody but the the really far -out charismatics would would have a problem with most of what was said there particularly in the seminars,

01:51:13

I think You'll sometimes hear critics Selecting cherry -picking sound bites from the

01:51:21

Q &A and that's what they want to deal with I wish the critics would actually deal with what was said in those seminars because I think a lot of the points that were made are

01:51:30

Simply unassailable But for that reason they don't want to deal with that. They'd rather sort of cherry -pick the unscripted bits

01:51:39

We have let's see here. We have RJ in White Plains, New York who wants to know if there are any

01:51:50

Non -dispensational confessionally reformed men who have positions of leadership at Grace Community Church or on the faculty at the master's seminary

01:52:01

You know, you have to explain to me what he means by non -dispensational I don't call myself a dispensationalist because Historic dispensationalism is so Closely connected with the antinomianism that we attacked in the gospel according to Jesus and its sequels

01:52:19

I don't like the term dispensationalism. It's based on the idea that God's dealings with men flip -flop between grace and law from dispensation to dispensation and the early dispensations the early dispensationalists divided all of history into seven distinct

01:52:39

Dispensations and honestly, I don't know anyone who I know there are people I just don't know anyone who still holds to that scheme.

01:52:48

So, you know, my own position would be somewhere between the

01:52:54

The only the only remnant of let me say it like this the only remnant of dispensationalism that I care about is eschatology

01:53:02

I'm a premillennialist So, but I'm I'm also a confessional reformed

01:53:09

Baptist type I would affirm the 1689 Baptist Confession with one exception and that is the

01:53:15

Sabbatarianism. I'm not a Sabbatarian So, what does that make me

01:53:20

I don't know I'm always wary of people who want to pin labels on people and dismiss them because of whatever label they

01:53:27

They wear and then which is not to say I don't think labels have their place they do But I don't think you can

01:53:36

Reduce every theological opinion so that it's either Either covenantal or dispensationalist dispensationalists make the same error in my judgment.

01:53:48

They they want to pin everybody who doesn't Totally agree with them with the label covenantal and dismiss them on that basis.

01:53:56

I I think theology is more complex than that And you have also won a free copy of the biography of John MacArthur written by Ian Murray published by Banner of Truth So, thank you very much for the question

01:54:10

RJ in White Plains, New York. Make sure we get your full mailing address Let's see we have

01:54:19

William in Brandon, Mississippi and He says

01:54:27

Let's see I Wanted to ask Phil if he is planning to write any more books.

01:54:34

I loved his commentary on Jonah. Oh That's nice.

01:54:39

I Cuz when he said any more books, I was thinking I've never written any books. Ah, well you contributed to a book on The church

01:54:48

I believe it was right. Yeah No I probably if you took all the various chapters that I've contributed to symposium books

01:54:55

It would make two or three books. It was actually on I was on law and grace. I believe right?

01:55:00

Yeah. Yeah, and I've done them on the church and prayer and contributed to books like that but what he's talking about the

01:55:09

The the commentary on Jonah is it's a kind of a very small little booklet

01:55:14

That was compiled by friends of mine in India who took my messages on Jonah I did what

01:55:21

I do with John McArthur's material They edited edited for publication and published it in a book called.

01:55:26

What's eating Jonah? I thought so too and then there's another book

01:55:37

That was compiled from my messages on the life of Elijah and I think it's called prophet of fire or something like that was also done in India and I Might be able to dredge up a copy

01:55:50

For the guy who asked the question if he'll email me directly I'll see if I can find a copy of that and send him the book on Elijah.

01:55:57

There's also a book that was published in Italy That was drawn from my messages on the history of heresy

01:56:06

But it's in Italian and I can't even I can't even read it myself Somebody translated my material into Italian and published it

01:56:14

Well, thank you William in Brandon, Mississippi And we are going to mail you the final copy of the book

01:56:25

By Ian Murray on John McArthur. Actually, I'm sorry. I got my emails crossed

01:56:32

Williams in Virginia Beach, Virginia So thank you very much for the question

01:56:38

And before me I did I didn't actually answer his question Which was do I have any plans to write any more books and the answer is no

01:56:45

I don't need any I don't need any more deadlines than I already juggle Well, I want you to close the program with some final thoughts on John McArthur before we run out of time.

01:56:55

I Appreciate John more than I could ever put into words. He has taught me I would think probably 90 % of what

01:57:02

I know about Scripture and doctrine and really everything I do know about how to interpret scripture

01:57:10

What to believe and all of that has been framed by his teaching his teaching on Ephesians 2

01:57:18

Made me a Calvinist before John even identified himself as a Calvinist because what

01:57:24

I appreciate about John's Preaching and his style is that he just goes to the text and preaches what's in the text

01:57:31

He's he's not thinking how do I fit this text into my preconceived theological grid?

01:57:37

he just preaches the text and that over 50 years time has shaped his doctrine into what it is and I just love his candor his honesty

01:57:47

I've just just this morning sent to Crossway a manuscript of a book that they're going to publish.

01:57:54

I think sometime Later in the year or maybe next year. It's it'll be a small book Drawn from a single sermon that he gave at the opening of last year's

01:58:04

Shepherds conference that lays out from 1st 2nd Corinthians for John's philosophy of ministry and as great insight in that in that book as to How John thinks about ministry one of the things he says that I appreciate so much he quotes where Paul says in 2nd

01:58:22

Corinthians 4 I beat Paul's quoting from a psalm and it says I believe therefore

01:58:28

I spoke and John says that's what should That's what should drive us as preachers.

01:58:34

What we believe is what we should preach. We shouldn't be worried about what's politically correct

01:58:39

What's currently popular? Preach what we believe preach what is in Scripture and let that govern your thing and do it fearlessly and he's done that I think more consistently

01:58:50

Longer better than anybody else. I know and I love that about him I want to thank you so much

01:58:56

Phil for being on the program, especially with such little notice today I look forward to you returning very often the iron trumpet

01:59:02

Zion radio. I want to thank everybody who wrote in questions today I apologize to any of you who are still waiting in line to have your questions asked we ran out of time

01:59:10

I'm sorry, but send in your questions the next time we have Phil on the program I hope you all have a safe and blessed weekend and especially a

01:59:17

God honoring Lord's Day And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater