Orthodox deacon vs Matt Slick | Apologetics Live 0013 | Matt Slick | Andrew Rappaport | CARM HD 720

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00:09

This is Apologetics Live with Matt Slick and Andrew Rappaport, part of the

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Christian Podcast Community. All right.

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We are live, Apologetics Live, every Thursday night, 8 o 'clock Eastern Time, ApologeticsLive .com.

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There you'll have a link where you can join every week. Just before 8 o 'clock, we put that link in.

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That link is live now. If you want to join and ask questions, you can go to ApologeticsLive .com.

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You can then just refresh the page if you're already there and you'll get a link to join. We may be going to Q &A after a bit.

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We have, we're a little late starting. You know, Matt and I, we're both very scared, very, very, very scared.

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You know, Matt, you've been challenged by a guy who needs a title. You know, he doesn't even have a name. It's kind of like Hillary.

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She doesn't have a last name, just the deacon. So the deacon has, has. The deacon.

01:16

Oh, wow. Okay. I guess. And by the way, it wasn't him calling himself the deacon that I know of.

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It was someone else just referring to him as the deacon. No, we actually had technical issues.

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Matt needs a new computer. If anyone out there. Yeah, that's right. Or maybe has a couple thousand dollars laying around because they got nothing else to do and just drop it in Matt's lap for a new computer for carm because I mean, you have to like reboot your computer before every show.

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I mean, seriously. Yeah. It's just, yeah, the past, I don't know, a couple, I don't know, two, three, four months has been giving me trouble and I used to be a computer tech, so I rebuilt it and which means, you know, wipe it all out, put all the

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OS and everything's fine. All the updates and the BIOS and everything. And it just gives me a little bit of trouble.

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I think what is happening is it's just because it's like four or five years old. I think after a while, you just got to build a new one.

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So there was a guy who said he could do that. And I was looking for his email. He either emailed me and I couldn't find it or he didn't email me and I couldn't find it.

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But if you're listening, email me, you know, a couple of years ago, it was me that needed the new computer.

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And it took me about two years to finally get my new iMac. Now mine's running fine.

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But now it's your turn. Yeah. I need one of those really nicely built systems that plenty of RAM, plenty of this, plenty of that.

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It just is lickety split fast. You know, some people, they know how to put the right CPU with the right motherboard, with the right

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RAM, with the right this, the right that, and it can get all this to work well. I just need to have an expert do that.

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Not me. All right. Well, because I knew that Joseph, who was in last week, we want to have some more dialogue with him.

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We're going to go to Q and A after you guys get done. But this is going to be a topic on basically

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Orthodox versus Protestant Christianity. And so I added him to the, to the room here.

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If you want to unmute yourself, Joseph, make sure that that's working. Hello?

03:25

Yep. There we go. Oh, okay. All right. Hi. I'm still, I'm actually still setting up.

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It's been kind of a nerve wracking thing today. I've just been, my nerves have been totally shot.

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So Matt's not alone in having a computer that doesn't like him. Okay. I have total stress issues.

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I totally want to get in on the pool though, if there's people with lots of money, because right now my transmission is just shot and I totally need that.

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All right. So while you, I'll tell you what, just turn your camera on when you're ready and I'll know when you're, when you want, and then we'll just add you in.

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Do I have to turn the camera on? Oh no, you don't have to, then give me a, yeah, either, either unmute yourself when you're ready or, or just put a note here in the chat, you're in chat.

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So yeah, just let me know when you're ready. So with that, Matt, CARM has been having,

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I don't know if it's extended into the new year, but you guys have had a matching gifts at the end of the year. Is that continuing into the new year?

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No, it's an end of year matching fund. So if you want to get in, you better hurry and, and go back in time about four days and then do it.

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So if you can do that, great. I think we got, we got to ask the donor because you know, it's, and you could completely blame me for the, the

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Matt Slick live podcast. That's like a week behind. It's not completely my fault. It is the radio station is we get them and we don't always get them all at once, but I started it.

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It's a little bit behind, but we may be catching up and we're handing those responsibilities off to Luke and he's gonna, he's picking that up.

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So that might be good. This, this weekend, Matt, we're going to be going down to Washington DC to the museum of the

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Bible. I, I don't, I don't think you've been there yet, but we're going to be doing a

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Christian podcast, community podcast event. We're going to be, we got two private tours set up, which will be cool.

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We're going to basically be going through looking at two tours, one for the old Testament, one for the new

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Testament. No, actually what we're going to do is look at the Dead Sea Scrolls and the, and ancient texts and sort of,

05:49

I guess that is a lot of that is old Testament, the Dead Sea Scroll part for sure. And then we're going to do. Remember, I've been in the, in,

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I have been in cave one where they found the Dead Sea Scrolls literally stood in it. No.

06:02

Okay. So you were in Israel. I don't know. I, when I was in Israel, I did get to go in to see the

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Dead Sea Scrolls that they had on display in the very dark room and see, they actually have, you know, in some of the

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Dead Sea Scrolls, there were more than 150 Psalms. And so I've seen some of those.

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They have some others that are not scripture, but so with that, I think

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Joseph is now good. So Joseph came in last week, wanted to discuss,

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Joseph and I ended up discussing the issue of well, scripture.

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What is scripture? What makes it scripture? Who gives it the authority to be scripture? And that might be a good place to pick up.

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Actually, with all due respect, Andrew, your name is right?

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Yes, sir. You know, I appreciated the talk and with,

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I don't want to get into a long, I don't want to get into another long story about interesting stuff, you know, from my past or anything like that.

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But my point is, I got off that call and, you know, I'll do a quick shout out to my wife here because frankly, what she, what she said hurt, because I've worked in apologetics for a while for my, for the

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Orthodox Church and one thing she said is, you said nothing that brought them to Christ. And I, my mind hurt when

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I heard that. It was actually a little bit painful because I realized that I had not,

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I had not said anything that would be helpful. It was kind of like we were just kind of talking past each other and it was a good talk.

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I'm not against that, but I should probably state from the outset that my interest is in seeing souls brought to the

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Orthodox Church. That is my goal and that is my goal with you guys.

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And I think the difference we're going to have is Matt and I's concern is that we bring people to Christ, not to the church, but that might be a good place to start.

07:59

Great. Sure. Um, you know, as Christ established a church, we were, we did have some debates on that actually, a little bit of disagreement on that.

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So that's some place to start. Um, another thing that I thought about was that it probably came off as a little disrespectful to talk about the origins of the

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Bible. I have watched a couple of these debates. People have been like, you know, it's been two weeks.

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People have been like, oh, you got to watch Matt's like debate this guy and this guy. And I've watched like a whole bunch of debates with this guy and that guy.

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And uh, some have been incredibly disappointing. And Matt, you've been consistent. I like that. Uh, but some of the guys you talk to and some of them were people like, you know,

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I liked, uh, I thought were really smart, but um, you want to talk about the scripture and we should.

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So that's, uh, I'm going to talk about, you, you just, you just said what you want to talk about. I don't care.

08:51

Okay. Um, well that's a, okay, well, it's not an, I thought it was an apologetic show.

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Our focus should be on, obviously, you know, I guess my first question is because of your interest in Christ, why aren't you part of the church?

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I am part of the church. Well, okay. Who's your bishop? Uh, you please define church.

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Uh, well the church would be the body of believers, um, as defined in the scriptures.

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We see the formation of the church and acts after Pentecost, um, the apostles established bishops, elders, presbyters, overseers, you know, you know, the three, you know,

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Presbyteros, Episcopos, that's me at the end. So in any case, the point is that, um, my question is, uh, like, did you ever reach out to join them?

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I understand the concept of, you know, people, especially in America, they, you know, there's Bibles in every hotel.

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You go and you say, you know, well, you read about Jesus, you learn about Jesus and Jesus touches your heart.

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And that's, I don't doubt that. Um, but my question is, then the follow -up would be going to the church, getting baptized, so on and so forth.

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I guess I'm trying to understand what held you back. Did no one, I don't know how many Orthodox people you talked to. So I have no idea if anyone said,

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Hey, Matt, have you come to the church or anything like that or Andrew? Well, your presupposition is that the

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Orthodox church is the one true church. I just don't accept that. And your definition of church is, uh, is wanting as well.

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You just presuppose certain things. You don't defend them from scripture. You just assume certain things. The word church, the word church has different meanings in different contexts.

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It can mean the body of Christ. It can mean a gathering of people. It can mean a local church, the people of God and an ecclesiastical body.

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Well, yeah, we spoke, uh, we, I did speak to Andrew last week about the variations on, you know, the word assembly and the nature of the church.

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But the church as commonly understood throughout history is the body of believers that succeed and that followed the successors of the apostles and maintain the doctrine of the faith.

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So I mean, I don't care about that. I don't care about that definition. It has no interest and no bearing. I want what the scripture says, not what you would cite out of history, what you think it means.

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I really don't care. I want to see out of the word of God, because let me ask you, is your church history and tradition inspired of God?

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I would answer yes. Oh, it's inspired? So, um, really? So it's equal to scripture then?

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Your tradition and your stuff? You see, that's one of the things that I thought was interesting because I, one thing I don't want and I don't, and I'm not, not trying to be rude, but I also want to say this to any

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Catholics who might be listening. Please don't join in and try to back me up because I don't, we don't hold to the paradigm of the scripture and tradition or scripture alone or scripture.

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It's just the scripture is our book. The tradition is our tradition. Tradition is mentioned in scripture.

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You know, the verse is better than I do. So I'm not going to, um, unless you can answer questions.

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Sure. So you say tradition is inspired. Okay. Uh, that means

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I'm sorry, what I should be more clear. Men are inspired by God.

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And he said, I said tradition. You said, yes, tradition. So are you going to say your tradition is not inspired?

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No, I would say that through the tradition of the church is inspired. Yes. But it's handed down by men. If so.

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All right. So it's handed down by men. How does that work? Does, does, uh, one guy, you know, in a building say,

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Hey, did you hear the one about Mary? And, uh, he whispers it near to somebody else. And that's how tradition is passed down.

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How's it work? Actually, that's very close to, uh, exactly how it worked. It was not whispered or Hey there or anything like that.

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It was my whatever, but yeah, so this is inspired process. I would say yes. So that means it's without error.

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I didn't say that. Wait, wait, wait. Are you saying an inspired process can have error in it?

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I'm saying an inspired process will end with a result without error, but the process itself will involve error.

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Oh, so we can have sinners who are saying false things be inspired. Well, I think that you can find them in the scripture when

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St. Paul talks about heresy being among you. So I'm saying you didn't answer the question. So these people who verbally give a tradition to somebody else, pass it down.

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Is that verbal declaration itself inspired? Well, the ones that are true, not the ones that are true.

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So only the ones that are true are inspired. And how do you know which ones are true? That's an interesting question because that was one of the things

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I thought was fun to listen to when I heard you guys talking with the Roman Catholics. They always go to the magisterium.

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Oh, well, we're not talking about Catholics. We're talking about you. Right. How do you know which of these oral statements are inspired, which means inerrant and authentic and other ones are not?

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Right. Well, basically the way the church has always done it is through a rule of faith. And so, you know, in the scriptures, we find that the apostles work together and counsel to make declarations.

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I can point to the apostolic constitutions. I'm not doing that yet, but that's still from the apostolic period.

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But more importantly, to answer your question, there's a rule of faith. And the way that we determine what is legitimate tradition, what is false tradition was best defined, best said in the commonatory by Vincent of Larence, who we consider a saint, which is basically where you take that guide, what was said by the ancients previously, and if they disagree, basically you remain silent on it.

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But if they don't disagree, then you go with what the church has always held. In other words, it's a reactive process.

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So because we know that the tradition came from the apostles first, we try to avoid innovation as opposed to trying to fit.

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If some guy like this guy Arius comes out and says, well, Christ isn't the son of God, he tries to use the scriptures to prove it.

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And we turn around, we say, no, we know that that's not the case. Now, granted, he did manage to get some imperial support and throw some of the saints in jail and all that fun stuff.

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But the point is, the church understood he was wrong, because the tradition, the tradition of that, the traditional reading of the scriptures would indicate that Christ was

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God. Reading of scripture, not the scriptures themselves, I see.

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So you put the scriptures underneath your tradition, you know, you supplant the word of God under your traditional foot, and you have you have your foot on the neck of scripture and you decide what is true.

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It's your interpretation of scripture that decides if Jesus is God, not if the scriptures themselves declare it.

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John 1, 1 and verse 14, the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God, the word became flesh and dwelt among us.

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There's no tradition that has to be invoked in order to understand the clear teaching of scripture. If you're going to start saying that tradition has to now interpret scripture, then you become the gate holder, the key keeper to what the scriptures really say.

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And you become the authority in your church, which to me just leads to damnation, false doctrines, heresies abound.

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So your process is just not working. Let's get back to this issue of tradition. These people who say these things, you know, they're whispering from one thing to another speaking,

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I don't mean in a derogatory sense, but, you know, Bob says to Frank, did you hear the one about whatever it is? Do they know that they're giving sacred tradition or this tradition?

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They do. So then that means that they know, okay, I got the corpus of this.

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So I'm going to try this hypothetically. Let's just say there's 1 ,000 statements in tradition that are inspired and sacred and true.

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Let's just use a number. I'm not saying there is that many or not that many, just, just okay. So we have how many of these guys and where are they that are getting all this information that they're passing down?

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Well, it's well, once again, because it's tradition, one thing I should make clear is that it isn't whispered.

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So this is the stuff that was proclaimed. I didn't mean, yeah, sorry about whisper, but yeah. Well, I just want to, because I don't want to give you,

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I don't want you to get the impression that the church say for, because my, my primary answer would automatically be the bishops.

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However, that's an incomplete answer because the people have sometimes preserved the church when the bishops haven't.

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So historically the tradition is the tradition regardless of who says it. So you see what

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I'm saying? So let's say you, for example, cause I noticed you've read a couple of church fathers. You read all of the early church fathers on a particular topic.

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You would understand that level of tradition better than your average lay person. And you would, or you would understand it even better.

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I'd said in some clergy, the point I'm trying to make is tradition by its nature does not require a hierarchical authority.

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It has one because it's given in the church. But the responsibilities of clergy have often failed.

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Um, you know, and that's actually been the job of people like apologists, like St. Justin Martyr. Um, that's what they did.

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You had to defend the faith. I don't know. Your tradition is inspired of God. Um, is all tradition inspired of God?

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Absolutely not. Okay. So how do you know which tradition is, is inspired of God and which is not?

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What's the thing that judges it? I, it has to go back to whether it's apostolic in nature. So let's say someone says,

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Mary went to Rome. Let's just use that. Okay. Uh, how would you know if it's true or not?

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Because none of the apostles nor fathers that they taught said Mary went to Rome. Ah, so your measure of truth is the apostolic fathers.

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Well, the apostolic fathers and you know, the church fathers, we don't believe that one thing that's different between us and say the

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Roman Catholics and Protestants, we don't believe that the patristic age has ended. There are fathers now.

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So who, who are these fathers? Uh, well, uh, they're bishops in the church and the, the saintly fathers are real ones that are going to survive time or the, you know, the holy ones, uh, you know, saints.

18:57

So, okay. So your tradition is passed down by people.

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Yeah. Right. That's how it works. Passed down by people. All right.

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Verbally. Literally what tradition means. Traditio in Latin literally means a handing down.

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So they're just saying things. Yeah. Okay. And so if they're in concert or in harmony with the church fathers, why do we need any tradition when

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I just read the church fathers? The church fathers are relaying the tradition. It's contradiction in terms. What church fathers?

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They're like Irenaeus? Well, Saint Irenaeus is a great example. I read an interesting thing that I thought was a very.

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Hold on. Hold on. You're off topic here. That Irenaeus wrote his stuff. He's dead. So we have any, any modern church fathers that give you, give us more tradition?

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Well, when they have their, they have tradition for today because the church is alive today, but they're not like adding anything to the first century.

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I mean, you know, that church tradition today. Uh, so you know who these people are who have this church tradition today?

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Traditionally that, or that role is helped by the bishops. So I'd say my bishop would be one. Bishop.

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So your bishop. Is one church father. Is one. He's a church father. A living church father.

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Living church father. And he's a bearer of tradition? I would hope so.

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That's what he took an oath for. He took an oath to do what? Took an oath to defend and uphold the tradition of the church.

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Ah, okay. All right. So he took an oath to uphold.

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To uphold. And defend the faith, the tradition of the church, you know, the whole thing. It's all in.

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And defend the faith, the tradition. That's what a bishop's supposed to do.

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You know, he guides his flock. Yeah. Okay. So, in other words, you have a non -falsifiable system that's not based on the word of God, that's based on your subjective experience of your particular bishops in your particular church organization that will then tell you how they interpret what the church fathers mean selectively in order to support their views of what the new tradition is.

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Well, no, there's things that are different than what you said. The first one is you said apply them selectively.

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That's incorrect. They have to apply them holistically, completely. So the point is they can't make up new teachings, period.

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You can't do that. You can clarify existing teachings, and that's what happened with the Arian Controversy and every other heretical controversy.

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Do you affirm toll houses? Yeah. Can you show me that in Scripture? Well, you know, you can go into some parts of Scripture for toll houses.

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It's not actually, you know, there's disagreement on it, but I mean, you want to talk about the Telonia in Scripture.

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So you don't have that in Scripture, and toll houses are in some sacred tradition? Well, believe it or not, there's debate over toll houses, but I think it's largely been squashed.

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I think most people understand that the Telonia are simply a place people pass through on the way to heaven.

22:14

Okay, so any church fathers that teach these toll houses? Um, well, the main source that you would get for that, hold on, because the main source you would find in the

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Scripture would be the angels and demons contesting over the soul, and that's literally what they do at a toll house.

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It's literally demons fighting over angels. They do that in a court. They do that, I mean, a married couple will do that in bed.

22:38

That's way too vague. No, it was talking about angels and demons, not married couples or people in court.

22:44

So a toll house, could you tell everybody what a toll house is? Toll house is an expression. It literally means a way station.

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Effectively, what we're talking about is when a person dies, they're judged.

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It's an extension of the belief in the particular judgment. I don't know if you believe in a particular judgment or not.

23:02

So that's it. That's an interesting question. Well, you know, we're looking at your methodology here, but toll houses,

23:15

I'm trying to look through my notes. I never would have expected toll houses. That's interesting. Well, yeah, because it's one of the more ludicrous teachings of orthodoxy, which obviously is not—

23:26

I dropped a link in for you, Matt, from Charlie, that he posted on YouTube. Okay. Okay.

23:37

I forgot what I was going to say. Something about toll houses. Yeah. I was on a train of thought.

23:45

Sorry. I can wait. Well, let's see. Toll houses are certainly not in Scripture.

23:53

I'm asking you— No, they're not. Can you show me any place in Church Fathers where there are toll houses?

23:59

Yeah, you can find a few. You can find a few Fathers, St. Gregory, St. Leo. There's a few who talk about it, and then you have some of the later

24:06

Fathers. There was the Life of Basil the New. But that's over centuries, you know?

24:11

And it's, again, I'm not— I don't want to— Well, wait a minute. The other Church Fathers don't teach this.

24:18

Would you say the majority don't teach toll houses? I would say that a number do, and I never counted.

24:24

Oh, come on. Give me a couple names. We know there's many, many, many, many

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Church Fathers. Would you say the majority teach toll houses? Tough question. It's still debated in orthodoxy.

24:35

You pick something that's debated in orthodoxy now. Even now, people ask whether or not that's a figurative thing, whether we're supposed to see them, but they are in our prayers.

24:46

So you don't know if it's true or not. It's just something that's figurative. You don't have it in Scripture. You can't nail it down in your tradition.

24:52

You're not even sure what it means. This is how your tradition works? Well, I'll be honest with you. I'll be honest with you.

24:59

People who go through the toll houses are either going to heaven or hell. You do believe in heaven and hell, correct?

25:06

Of course. Okay. Then it doesn't really matter how you get there unless we're talking about here on Earth.

25:14

The main reason that it's mentioned— and again, this is apocrypha. If you look in the

25:19

Book of the Maccabees about praying for the dead, the assumption is that the Church has always held that there are salvific actions that can be taken for the dead because the dead aren't fully dead.

25:28

We're off topic. Well, no, we're not off topic. I'm just looking about toll houses. I just looked through the

25:34

Antinocene and Post -Nocene Church Fathers. I typed in the word toll. It didn't come up once anywhere.

25:42

Okay. Now, you know, it doesn't mean that the concept isn't taught there. I've just never—it's never been something that I've seen heavily affirmed as a dogmatic statement of the

25:54

Church. It's just— Well, this is part of your tradition. It is! This is part of what—yeah. So I'm just working on something from your tradition, and apparently it's not in Scripture, and it's not in the

26:05

Church Fathers, and you're saying that a lot of your guys believe it. I'm just testing how your tradition works, and it's supposed to be inspired.

26:13

It's not looking real good for you right now. Well, that's okay. I've worked my way out of a hole before. Oh, you admit it's a hole?

26:19

Let's see. You admit it's a difficulty. In the dialogue with Trifo—I'm just gonna—I jumped off the internet here just to see—

26:26

St. Justin Martyr, he's one of the Apostolic Fathers, says, Deliver my soul from the sword, and my only begotten from the hand of the dog.

26:34

Save me from the lion's mouth. Psalm 21, 20 to 21. This was written so that when we arrive at the end of life, we may ask the same petition from God, who is able to turn away every shameless evil angel from taking our souls.

26:46

Um, so at least one Church Father that was probably taught by the

26:52

Apostles did, in fact, teach something— Can you read that again? I'm sorry. Deliver my soul from the sword, and my only begotten from the hand of the dog.

27:01

Save me from the lion's— I'm sorry. The hand of what? The dog. It's Psalm 21, 20 to 21, in verse—

27:08

I'm sorry. I have a slight problem hearing. I have 80 decibel ringing in my ears. I'm not trying to be difficult.

27:13

I just want to be clear. I appreciate your need for clarity. I'm very similar.

27:19

What it said is, deliver my soul from the sword. It's Psalm 21, 20 to 21, if any of you just want to get that.

27:26

So it says, deliver my soul from the sword, my only begotten from the hand of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth. And then he says, this was written so that when we arrive at the end of life, we may ask the same petition from God, who is able to turn away every shameless evil angel from taking our souls.

27:43

Angels can take our souls? Well, the idea is demons take our souls to hell. That's what the tall houses are.

27:51

Yeah. And so are you saying that angels can take our souls and demons can take our souls? They escort our souls to the right place.

27:58

Yeah. They can take them. So a demon could rob someone's soul and take them to the wrong place? No. Oh, no.

28:04

That's not what happens. It's just a process of life. Yeah, no, no. There's no— It's not—

28:09

Well, there's no purgatory. But the basic process is, if you're dead one way or another, you're going to go where you kind of intended to go.

28:17

Okay. So you admit it's a problem, the tall houses. The tradition thing isn't working for you in this respect very well at all.

28:26

So, you know, I just don't think your tradition— I can grill you all night on tradition questions.

28:32

I got a lot more I could ask you that are tough. Awesome. I actually would like some. Because that—

28:37

I think that you probably picked one of the most controversial issues in orthodoxy today, which is ironic that that's actually a controversial issue.

28:46

But that's, you know, really. So if you have more questions, sure. How does such a person who is—

28:52

I'm not meaning derogatory whispering. I'm going to use a different word. Just speaking. Just saying. Teaching.

28:59

Well, you know, he's saying a tradition to somebody else, okay?

29:05

Does he know he's conveying authentic information and not just hearsay? Well, considering it came from the apostles, you'd have to assume that he's—

29:14

Well, that's my point. Tradition, and this is why tradition comes. When we say church fathers, we mean glorified fathers.

29:21

Saints, in other words. So they can't be liars. Well, hold on. You know, I mean, I do not want to be taken as trying to be mocking or condescending in any way.

29:32

So I keep saying that. I'm not trying to do that at all. I don't mind if you get a little mocking.

29:38

No, I don't want to do that. Even if you don't mind. Unless I'm mocking you personally because I don't like you for fun and you'd laugh.

29:43

That'd be the only way. I don't like to do that with people. That's fine. But, you know, so you have a bishop in—

29:49

What state are you in? Just to be on the line. I'm in Pennsylvania, but the bishop's in New Jersey. Okay, so you have a

29:54

New Jersey bishop. All right. And so he's alive today. So he's the one then who received sacred tradition from somebody else.

30:04

I told you, sacred tradition, it carries on through the ages. Okay. Anyone can learn the sacred tradition, but it's his job to defend it.

30:12

So how does he know he got it from the lineage from the apostles? How does he know that? And not, you know, 300 years ago a guy said something that another guy heard and now he puts it in.

30:21

All right, do you refer to it as tradition or do you refer to it as succession? Because those are two different things. Well, tradition is by succession.

30:27

It's transmitted by succession. Well, it's transmitted by generations. It's transmitted what? I might have—I should have been more clear if you thought you were confusing tradition and succession.

30:35

Tradition is a body of knowledge. Succession is the role given from the apostles to the bishops to the present day.

30:44

Those are two different things. Right, and they're different. They're different things. My point is that the bishop doesn't get like a book that's called tradition or something and say, here you go.

30:53

I mean, outside of— What does he get? Well, he gets a crozier and a hat. No, no, no.

30:59

But those objects aren't tradition. Tradition is either written or it's verbal. So you said it's not a book, so it has to be oral.

31:07

Well, actually those objects are part of tradition, but that's beside the point. I'm sorry, I didn't understand that. What? The staff and the hat are, in fact, part of tradition.

31:15

Receiving the staff and hat. Well— There is no part in the Bible where it says receive your staff and hat.

31:20

You're a bishop now. That just didn't happen. Yeah, but I'm not talking about that, the vestures. I'm talking about this, you know, stuff about Mary, stuff about salvation, stuff about toll houses.

31:29

That's an interesting— You know, I watched your debate with these three Catholic guys on Mary.

31:36

It was a— No, no, no, it was a good debate. You actually did quite well, and I was shocked because you had a bunch of questions about praying to Mary.

31:44

And you asked, like, I think it was something— I don't know if I can jog your memory here so I don't have to repeat it, but basically, like, you'd said to these guys, like, you said, you believe that Mary hears your prayers all over the world.

32:00

And they kind of look confused and stuff like that. And then you're like, in different languages, right?

32:06

And so you're going through this long thing. You remember this discussion? Yeah, I say it regularly. How can Mary hear all our prayers spoken and thought in different languages all over the world simultaneously?

32:16

Yeah, here's what blew my mind. None of them could just say yes. I don't understand why that was so difficult.

32:24

I mean, were they—I mean, I get that they might have been afraid of, you know, if they argue with people.

32:29

I don't—I'm not into traps. Well, what do you think? Absolutely. I just said yes.

32:34

That's exactly my position. So Mary can hear all these prayers all the time, everywhere, all—I mean, all over, from other people?

32:41

Yeah, sure. And if I—that are thought and spoken? Well, no, because technically, prayers that aren't thought aren't thought—aren't prayers until they're—

32:50

Yes, they are. Yeah, you can pray without speaking. You can, but the point is you shouldn't, because if you don't, it's not coming out.

33:00

So you just said you can pray silently, so that's a prayer. So your position is

33:07

Mary can hear silent prayers in different languages all at the same time, or spoken prayers all over the language—all over the world, excuse me, different languages simultaneously, comprehend all of them?

33:18

Joseph, try not to interrupt Matt speaking, okay? That's okay. We're kind of interrupting each other, but it's going fine.

33:24

I mean, you know— It just happens no one can hear either of you. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. Well, rebuke me, too.

33:30

Sorry. Okay, no problem. I just did it. I would love to do that. Okay, so you admit, though,

33:38

Joe, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, Joe. So you admit that Mary can hear prayers spoken and thought simultaneously all over the world.

33:50

Yeah, actually, I'd like to take it a step further than that. Wow, okay. Um, may

33:56

I? Sure! Yeah, okay. Well, in the 16th century, there was a monk who lived in Finland, the

34:06

Kola Peninsula, called Trifon of Pachanga. Little -known guy, very humble little monk, very holy, you know, nice guy.

34:15

He died. Miracles happened around his grave, and he was named by the Russian Orthodox Church as a saint.

34:21

I believe that Saint Trifon of Pachanga can do the exact same thing. Okay, so not only

34:31

Mary, but this other guy— Oh, no, every saint can do that, is my point.

34:36

Oh, so, okay. It's a random note. So all saints— Okay, now

34:43

I gotta ask you. Sure. What's a saint? Is saint anybody who's saved, or is saint anybody who's— there's a special thing for sainthood?

34:49

That's a great question, because there is a very big difference between our views on that. And what

34:55

I mean by that is Orthodoxy, our focus, salvation is a process.

35:02

And in that process, we become united to God. A saint is somebody who is literally united to God and died that way, so they are alive in Christ and can still act even on the other side.

35:19

Okay, I don't think you're in the right track, because I think you're exceeding what's written in the

35:26

Word of God. Well, I don't know. I would disagree if I may quote the Word of God just really quickly.

35:34

And this may be a strange quote, but I bought this Bible at a Dollar Tree. I bought a Bible just for this debate, and it's really small and seven -point text.

35:42

So it's a King James though. So, okay, I'm in— Where is it? Romans 12, okay?

35:50

Okay. And it says, I beseech you, therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies as a living sacrifice, wholly acceptable unto

35:59

God, which is your reasonable service. And be ye not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what that is good and acceptable and perfect.

36:11

Did I do something? What? No, I had to turn my fan off, sorry. Oh, okay. I totally listened.

36:17

I apologize. I didn't know you were watching. Yeah. I believe it was the perfect will of God. For I say, though the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not ought to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

36:35

For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office, so we being many are but one body in Christ, and to all members one of another.

36:46

Having then the gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophecy according to the proportion of faith, of ministry let us wait in our ministering, or he that teacheth on teaching, or he that exhorteth on exhortation, he that giveth let him do it with simplicity, he that ruleth with diligence, he that showeth mercy with cheerfulness, let love be without dissimulation, abhor that which is evil, cleave to that which is good, be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love, in honor preferring one another, not slothful in business, fervent in spirit, serving the

37:18

Lord, rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing instant in prayer, distributing to the necessity of saints, giving to hospitality, bless them which persecute you, bless and curse not, rejoice with them that do, rejoice and weep with them that weep.

37:32

I can go on. You know this entire chapter. I'm sure you did. But my point is that a person, because St.

37:41

Paul is not suggesting that this is something that happens when you suddenly believe. He's saying these are your responsibilities.

37:49

Do we live that? And if we don't, then there is a difference between us and those who do.

37:54

And that is what we call saints. So saints live this stuff? Yeah. Okay.

38:00

So the ones who live that are able to hear all prayers spoken and thought in all languages, all over the world simultaneously.

38:08

In some cases, they were able to do it while they were alive. Okay. So some could do it while they're alive here.

38:15

But literally millions of millions of people praying different languages and comprehend all of them.

38:22

Do you think it's okay to exceed what's written in the Word of God in this regard? No, I just read the

38:28

Word of God in that regard. But you're reading the Word of God did not justify their ability to have godlike features of hearing all prayers, all time, all of the world.

38:39

What you read was just something about, you know, sanctification and grace gifting. Well, it's an interesting thing that you're pointing out there,

38:46

Matt. But really, if you want me to break that down, for example, you mentioned, can Mary hear prayers in all languages?

38:53

And to them, we can add St. Trifon and all the other saints hear prayers in all languages. But we can also then just go to the

38:59

Acts of the Apostles and point out that at Pentecost, they could speak in all languages. I assume that means they could hear as well as speak.

39:04

Well, it doesn't say they spoke in all languages. It says they spoke in all the languages of the people that were around. Well, that were present, not in all languages.

39:12

They spoke in all the languages that were represented. Yeah. It wasn't like two languages or it wouldn't be that impressive.

39:18

Yeah, and that's because there's different theories of what that means. Some think that they're only supposed to be speaking in the

39:23

Hebrew language or the in all different languages, these different languages around, you know,

39:30

Scythian and Egyptian or whatever it is. You're saying that that part of the Acts was just the figurative or something?

39:36

Of course not. It really happened. No problem. So then it really happened because God gives people the ability to speak in multiple languages if they needed to, am

39:46

I right? Yeah, I absolutely believe that because that's what the Bible says. It's a gift of tongues and things like that.

39:53

Scripture to believe that they can do that after they're completely united to God. Well, speaking in tongues, we're going to talk about speaking in tongues after they're dead.

40:01

We talked about this one particular issue of one individual, for example, anybody, being able to hear simultaneously all languages all over the world, spoken and thought simultaneously, period, and comprehend all of them at once.

40:18

You can't get that out of Acts 2. Well, no, I can get the speaking in tongues part.

40:24

And if we want to talk about all places and all times, we can. But the more important thing is, do you believe

40:29

God can do that? God can. Only God can because that's one of the attributes of his existence. Exactly.

40:35

Now, well, I would argue that even that is an imagination on our part, and he's beyond that, but that's beside the point.

40:44

What's more important is that those souls who are united to God can do what God grants them.

40:49

I don't believe, for example, that, first off, if someone prays, say, for example, let's say someone prays to the

40:55

Theotokos to marry, sorry, every third daughter in Orthodoxy is named Mary, so that's going to get confusing for me.

41:02

The point is, someone prays to the Theotokos, I want to murder that dude. It's not going to happen.

41:08

Why? Because it's wrong. But the point is, God allows his saints to work miracles before and after death.

41:17

That's the amazing part. For example, here's another example.

41:23

Actually, I'm going to stick with that one. Well, can we stick with this one thing? I mean, you're going beyond what's written in the

41:30

Word of God. It doesn't say in Acts... I'm sorry? Oh, which part? It doesn't say in Acts 2 that any individual could hear spoken prayers, if we're talking about spoken prayers, thought prayers in different languages all over the world simultaneously, comprehending them all at once.

41:54

Where's that in Scripture? Well, you said that's an attribute of God. Yeah, we know that, because God is omnipresent.

42:04

God knows all things, and he would know all things about people, all people praying to him simultaneously.

42:10

It's a characteristic of God. Somebody is united to God because they were a saint. Well, what does it mean to be united to God?

42:16

Does it mean now they can all of a sudden be everyone in the universe also? If you can move mountains, yeah, sure, why not?

42:23

So wait a minute. So you're saying that a human being can now be omnipresent? I'm saying that a human being who's dead can take a share in the reality of life with God.

42:33

All right, so let's work with that then. So a saint, dead or alive, can hear all prayers of all people all over the world.

42:47

All over the world. Simultaneously. Can they also be everyone in the universe all at the same time?

42:57

I would assume they go wherever God wants them to go. No, no, no. Could they be omnipresent?

43:03

Well, I don't know. I mean, does God want them to be omnipresent? Well, you said that a saint can hear all prayers of all people all over the world simultaneously.

43:14

And the reason you're justifying that is because they're united with God. So they are united with God.

43:23

I'm writing these notes, okay? So since they're united with God, can they also be everywhere all the time?

43:30

If God needs them to be. So what you're saying, it is possible. It is possible for people, saints,

43:41

I'm going to say saints, to be everywhere all the time. To be omnipresent. If God wants them to, yeah.

43:47

Okay, but it does or doesn't. It's possible. What God wants to do with the saints.

43:56

So they can be omnipresent. So a saint, single saint, could exist simultaneously in all parts of the universe everywhere.

44:06

Once he's united to God, he does. Okay, can you show me anything like that in scripture that backs this claim up?

44:16

Which specific claim? That it's possible for a saint to be omnipresent in the entire universe.

44:24

I don't think that there's too many examples of saints who are omnipresent in the entire universe. You said it's possible.

44:30

I just wanted to go with scripture. Because I think you're exceeding what's written in the word of God. Okay, well that's an interesting question.

44:37

Hold on one second, because I do actually want to look something up. If you don't mind. I'm sure...

44:51

Okay, if we look in Genesis 5 .24.

44:58

Okay, Genesis 5 .24.

45:06

I'll get my handy -dandy translation I have here, because it's very comfortable. And Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.

45:17

Where is he? He went into the heaven, that's what it looks like.

45:23

There's different levels of heaven. Where's that? Yeah, well we don't know exactly where it is. So it could be anywhere?

45:30

I wouldn't say anywhere. I wouldn't say it's in hell. Well, it's obviously not in hell. Hell's a negation. So then it wouldn't be anywhere.

45:37

Well, my point is he could be anywhere. Outside of hell. Outside of a place he's not supposed to be.

45:43

Simultaneously? All over? You mean? I don't know. I'm not God. I know he took him off earth. Okay, so...

45:52

Um, but now you're teaching me that a saint can exist all over the universe simultaneously.

46:02

And I'm looking for a place in scripture for that. Because you keep going beyond what's written. You're exceeding what's written in the word of God.

46:08

Okay, if you accept that God exists throughout the universe, and you accept that saints are united to God, then it's a logical conclusion that saints will be wherever God wishes them to be, including everywhere in the universe.

46:21

It's not logically necessary. Can you show me where it says we're united with God in the Bible? What do you mean by, uh, show you where it says we're united with God?

46:30

You're the one who says we're united with God. Show me that in scripture. Okay, um, now what you're saying then...

46:37

I want to be specific here. Because you're talking about union with God. Correct?

46:44

Union, united, yeah. Show me where... And then you have to define what that is. Okay. Um, sure.

46:51

Give me one second. I'm gonna go with a simple one first. I was trying to make that point in Romans.

46:58

And that point was that we have, when you are a

47:04

Christian, a responsibility that goes beyond the normal human responsibility.

47:12

But to simplify it, I will simply... Let me see here.

47:21

I really need to get a better concordance. Okay, well, while you look that up, now would be a good time, since you're looking that up, for us to just give a word from our sponsor.

47:32

While you look that up, give you some time. Sponsors? Yeah. Matthew 548, that's what it was.

47:38

Okay. So Matthew what? 548? Yeah. Okay. We'll continue after the sponsor.

47:45

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47:52

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48:03

Was it Matt? That's what... I know it's Eastern time. I think it's five o 'clock. My radio show?

48:08

Yeah. You are a complete heretic. You should know that though. It's four...

48:14

It's six o 'clock. It changed when you went out of the radio station. Yeah, it's six o 'clock.

48:20

And you switched. I forgot for a split second. But... We were on different times. That's true.

48:26

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That's 1 -800 -944 -5396.

49:26

And back to the discussion. Okay. Matthew 548. Oh, 524.

49:33

524? Was it 548 did I say? Or 524? I thought you did. Be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.

49:39

Matthew 548. Okay, yeah. So we're... I'm extremely familiar with that text.

49:46

Okay, so what does it mean? Context determines the meaning. Verse 43. You have heard that it was said, you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.

49:54

But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. So that you may be sons of your father who is in heaven, for he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

50:05

For if you love those who love you, what reward does... What, excuse me, what reward do you have?

50:11

Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others?

50:17

Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore, you're to be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. Heavenly father loves everybody equally.

50:24

We aren't to show favoritism. That's the perfection that's being talked about in the context. The reason I know this, I've only been studying and aware of this verse for about 39 years.

50:33

Dealing with Mormons who use this to demonstrate that they can become gods. Oh, okay.

50:39

That's an interesting choice there, that you went with Mormons on that.

50:45

Because I thought that Mormons basically, they get their own planets and stuff. They do. They teach you to become gods.

50:50

That's what they mean by perfection. It's their idea of deification, becoming godlike. Well, what's deification?

50:57

Becoming a god. Okay. So now it's interesting because Orthodox use deification to mean becoming united to God.

51:04

I know. And a theosis. But I'm very,

51:10

I guess I'll insult myself. I'm a little anal about things. And I don't mean to ask a thousand questions.

51:16

I love it. Just to be irritating. I ask a thousand questions because that's how I learn. I'm a little autistic.

51:23

And so I get down to the minutiae, the early details. And sometimes it wears people out. I want to know. Yeah. I want to understand it so well.

51:31

I realize that what I'm saying sounds so insane. No, I've heard it before. Okay. Well, then it sounds pretty okay.

51:38

It sounds, well, would you say it sounds sane? No, I say it's a blasphemous and ungodly and unscriptural.

51:44

Okay. That's great. Okay. I disagree. I believe that that's actually the teaching of Jesus Christ, but that's beside the point.

51:50

Well, nothing in scripture says we can become gods. That's true. Nothing in scripture says that we have to light three candles at an altar.

51:59

We have to give a hat to a bishop, but we do it too. So are you saying we can become gods? No, I'm saying the actual term.

52:05

I think Saint Chrysostom put it best when he said, God became man so that man might become God. Chrysostom was a brilliant preacher too.

52:13

Yes, he was. Yeah, but it doesn't mean he's right about everything either. No, that's true.

52:18

But he can hear everything now. He can. Can you show me that in scripture where he can hear everything?

52:24

And where Chrysostom... Considering he's 400 years after the canon of scripture was decided, I'd say probably not. And where Chrysostom is omnipresent.

52:32

Well, God is omnipresent. Okay, but you said that saints can be, this way, show me a scripture where it shows that anybody other than God can be omnipresent in a human being.

52:46

They can't. They can't. No, they can't. As soon as you say other than God, you've negated...

52:53

But you just said that saints could be everywhere. They can't other to God. Not other than God.

53:00

I didn't say other. Well, you did. You actually just said other than God. Oh, okay. Okay, I get what you're saying.

53:05

So you're saying when they're united with God, they can therefore be omnipresent. But he needs them to, absolutely.

53:14

If they're omnipresent, are they aware of all things in the universe simultaneously? I don't know.

53:22

I'm not omnipresent. Okay. And so you're saying because they're united with God, which you haven't defined, now that means that they can be omnipresent in the entire universe.

53:35

If God chooses for them to be omnipresent in the entire universe, sure. Okay. Can they also be all -knowing?

53:42

I don't think so. I don't know. I guess they could be omnipresent united with God. Well, why would

53:47

God want to make them all -knowing, too? I don't know. I'm working with your position. That's not mine. I'm trying to get you to think.

53:54

Well, that's my point, is that I've never heard of some of the... It's good that you're bringing an extreme example up, so I have to answer the theoretical possibility.

54:02

But in terms of the actual practice of the church, it's never been known.

54:08

I don't know where anyone's ever said, Hey, St. Trifon of Pachanga, could you possibly tell me if my mom's going to die next week?

54:13

I mean, I have no idea how that works. I do know that people praying for their mom to, you know, to the

54:19

Seotokos and asking for a session or St. Trifon of Pachanga. I'll use him again, even though I didn't really know who he was until last week.

54:27

But the point is that, you know, they help. And the question is how?

54:34

The only answer we have is that God gave them that ability.

54:40

No, the scriptures don't say God gave them the ability. You just infer it by very weak relationships.

54:47

You're united with God, so therefore, if you're united with God, then they can be ever -present, that's possible.

54:52

Well, if that's the case, then they can also be all -knowing. Hold on one second, because I do want to search up one thing.

55:03

Here's the, I have a question. Acts 19 .12. So this is related to this.

55:10

I'm not trying to diverge, but Acts 19 .12, yeah, if we could use your translation, because I don't know what yours is going to say.

55:16

I use NASB, the one Paul used. Go ahead. Okay. NASB, okay, that's, okay.

55:22

Use whatever, I don't care. Paul. Handkerchiefs and evil spirits, yeah.

55:28

I'm thinking it's the NASB, but that's beside the point. Okay. Well, I got,

55:33

I'm using this KJV here, so. And God brought special miracles by the hands of Paul, so that the body, that from his body were brought unto the sick, handkerchiefs or aprons, and that the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

55:47

Handkerchiefs and aprons. Now, I would assume that St. Paul was not aware of what was happening with his handkerchiefs and aprons.

55:55

Am I right? I don't know if he was or wasn't. Well, I mean, I don't, you, I'm sure he didn't physically, he didn't have

56:00

GPS. He wasn't physically tracking them. Was he? So that from his body were brought.

56:09

So that from his body were brought unto the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons. Oh, I mean, these handkerchiefs and aprons went out to people.

56:15

Right. I don't know if it, it doesn't say that they, they were out of his presence, doesn't say they remained in his presence.

56:22

So all they could do is offer conjecture at this point. Well, it literally says that from his body were brought unto the sick, handkerchiefs or aprons.

56:30

I mean, and that was, and the evil spirits went out of them. In other words, handkerchiefs and aprons.

56:35

I would assume that St. Paul did not have the power of God to create handkerchiefs and aprons, but that came from God.

56:44

That the handkerchiefs and aprons could then cast out demons, presumably heal the sick the same way we use relics today.

56:50

But the point I'm trying to make is that the handkerchiefs and aprons, to my knowledge, do not have, they don't have divine authority of themselves.

56:58

They certainly haven't declared themselves believers or handkerchiefs and aprons. Right. So how does that work?

57:04

Well, this is a different off topic of the issue of how a person united to God can be omnipresent.

57:11

Well, I'm wondering how a handkerchief or apron can be united to God. It doesn't say it's united to God.

57:19

It is united to Paul, right? It doesn't say it's united to Paul. Well, it says it was brought from the hands of Paul.

57:25

When Jesus rose from the dead and he appeared in the room with the disciples, did he walk through walls to do that after the resurrection?

57:31

I believe he, well, I thought he did that in a different, no, yeah, I think he did. No, the

57:37

Bible doesn't say he walked through walls. It just says he appeared. See, the scriptures are inspired. The tradition is not.

57:43

Scriptures, every word, every jot, every tittle, every letter, everything is inspired. It doesn't say that, for example, that Jesus walked through walls.

57:50

People assume things, but it's not what the text says. And the reason it doesn't say that is because God doesn't want it to be said. He just appeared there.

57:56

So I'm just saying that I hold an extremely high view of scripture. It doesn't say that they're united with Paul, but it says that from his body were brought.

58:03

It just says these things that he had were brought to the sick and evil spirits left. But how did they work?

58:09

I don't know how it worked. I don't know how it worked. That was the thing. It's an important question because it answers the question as to how something can work apart from a person.

58:20

It answers the question as to how a person can have divine being within them, and that transfers.

58:28

The divine being was transferred into aprons and handkerchiefs? Well, no, it was transferred to the person.

58:34

And the fact that he held them, or he was using them, it carried with it.

58:41

So the handkerchiefs and aprons. Well, hold on. Actually, that reminds me of another scripture now that I'm thinking about it.

58:48

Give me one second. And that would be... Hold on, give me a sec. Okay, yeah, and then...

59:07

Peter with a shadow? Well, I wasn't going to go with Peter's shadow. I was actually going to go with Mark 5, 28.

59:17

This is, you know, of course, this is Christ. This is the Son of God. If I just touch his garment,

59:23

I'll get well. Immediately, the flow of blood dried up. The reason that happened is because she was trusting in who he was.

59:29

And many people were touching him in the crowd. When he says, who touched me? In verse 30, he knows their power went out.

59:35

What she was touching was what's called the talit and the tzitzit. It was the 613 laws that were tied in knot patterns at the hem of his garment.

59:44

She reached down and touched that specifically. So she was committing an act of faith here and she was healed. That's all that's going on.

59:49

It would have mattered if she touched like the shoulder of the garment? The shoulder was up high.

59:55

She reached down low and went for that talit. And so there was an act of faith that she was doing there.

01:00:02

So would it be less of an act of faith if she touched the hem of the shoulder? Uh, I don't know. Uh, I'm just saying with a text set.

01:00:09

Right. So that's good. I like precision. But the point I'm trying to make is that you would therefore assume that not just people, that not just Christ specifically, but even objects can be used in a salvific manner.

01:00:27

If in our omnipresent, God wants to do that. It doesn't say salvific, but it says people were healed.

01:00:33

And I can go with that, that certain objects were. Yeah. But this does not answer the question how someone united with God can potentially be omnipresent and omniscient.

01:00:43

Well, I wouldn't, I, as I've said, I said, it's theoretically possible. The tradition does not teach.

01:00:50

So you're saying, well, you're okay. I'm discussing this with you. You're saying that a person, a

01:00:56

Saint theoretically, uh, can be omnipresent and omniscient.

01:01:04

If God wills. If God wills. Okay. And he would independently, he would take a share of God's omnipresence or omniscience or whatever

01:01:13

God wanted to give. And could such a Saint also be omnipotent? Because, um,

01:01:21

I don't know how that would work. Well, I'm just saying, because you say he's united and the omnipresence and omniscience are the attributes of God's very character and nature.

01:01:32

And so, I mean, there's another omni and there's yet another and another. So if God wants these creatures to be omnipotent as well as omniscient and omnipresent, he could do that, right?

01:01:43

Yeah. Well, it's like the text of scripture I was thinking of before I started even talking. Um, it was,

01:01:49

I told you, I would probably guess. I was a little bit nervous over the past couple of weeks, right?

01:01:56

I didn't know what to think. And I'll be honest. It's because I haven't really done public speaking in a very long time.

01:02:04

Shoot. I'm not even showing my face. And the only thing that kept me going and, you know, to be quite honest, um, was, uh,

01:02:13

Philippians 4 .13. Ironically, now I realize that that's probably the strongest argument

01:02:19

I have to answer your question because he says I can do all things, not some things, through Christ, which strengthens me.

01:02:29

Okay. So then that verse to you, Philippians 4 .13, you could do all things through Christ who strengthens me. So that means that then a human being, a saint can be omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.

01:02:41

I'm saying whatever God wants them to be. And if God were to want that, it would happen, right?

01:02:48

I would assume so. Okay. So in other words, uh, you're saying that it's potential and within your theological perspective for people to become, uh, gods.

01:02:58

I said all talking there, not me. I didn't say gods. And so all things through him strengthened me that all things, but you're understanding it to mean everything.

01:03:06

So then can a person make himself not exist and then come back into existence? You mean like, like, like popping from one room to another, like passing?

01:03:15

No, no. Out of existence or doesn't exist anymore. And then back into existence, all things. I don't know. I've heard of things like biolocation.

01:03:22

So I, in theory, I guess someone could do something like that. So no, I'm trying to show you that you're actually the logic that you're saying is.

01:03:31

Oh, hold on. Hold on. You're talking about, in other words, like, okay, so you're talking existentialism sort of things.

01:03:37

You're basically saying like, could he cease to exist and then return himself to existence?

01:03:43

Right. Can you do that question? Because I was under the impression, because I operate under the assumption that all living.

01:03:50

Hold on one second, please. Sure. Okay. I'm going to have to put that on hold. I will call back.

01:03:58

Um, in any case, I was trying to call earlier. Um, I would say that what appears to us to be non -existence, for example, when people die simply means to go to another place.

01:04:12

So when you said that at first, I assumed you meant, could a person jump to the abode of the dead and then come back?

01:04:18

Yes. In theory, they could. And it was specific because you said all things.

01:04:24

I'm trying to show you that all things doesn't mean every conceivable option. Well, it's logically not possible, you know, option for what

01:04:31

God wants. Is it do all things through God who strengthened me? Can a saint make a round square?

01:04:37

The answer would be no, it's logically impossible. So he can't do that, which is logically impossible. We're talking about it.

01:04:43

We're talking about, uh, we, we believe in a God who came to earth and came back from the dead.

01:04:49

So what's possible and not possible are kind of, uh, where are the, that's kind of our wheelhouse, isn't it?

01:04:55

I mean, to say that, you know, a round square can't exist. If God chooses for a round square to exist, it can.

01:05:02

No, it can't. Of course, because God would never choose something that's logically impossible. God cannot lie.

01:05:08

Titus one, two. There are certain things that God cannot do that violate his own essence and his own nature. And logic actually, logic, logic actually exists because it's a property of the nature of God himself.

01:05:19

He cannot do that, which contradicts his own nature. There's no such thing as a round square. It's not logically possible.

01:05:25

I'm just trying to show you that Philippians four 13 doesn't mean every single thing you can conceive of, and you're just weaving too much heresy and false teachings and extra biblical things into this.

01:05:34

You keep exceeding what's written, but you think it's okay to exceed what's written in the word of God, don't you? Well, okay. Explain to me how the sun stands still.

01:05:43

God in his miraculous power did something where the earth either stopped rotating without the sun cannot, the sun can't stop moving.

01:05:51

It's logically it can. Logic has to do with propositions, with deduction, induction, abduction, conclusions, necessity, and things like that.

01:06:02

The miraculous is not a violation of logic. It's a violation of natural law.

01:06:09

No, it's not a violation of natural law. It's a breaking of the boundaries of the natural world.

01:06:17

That's one theory, but the other theory is that there are just laws that God has access to, which we don't, and he simply accesses those within the physical realm.

01:06:25

There's no violation of anything. But he can't make a round square. Right, because it's against his own nature and his essence.

01:06:32

God cannot sin. Wait, how is making a round square a sin? Okay, God cannot sin.

01:06:38

That's another topic. He cannot violate his own nature. A round square is by definition mutually impossible.

01:06:45

It's logically impossible. It cannot be. I still don't know.

01:06:51

Where do you see in the scriptures about round squares? I'm just kidding. God said, let us reason together.

01:06:56

And I was at five. God is reasonable. He's logical. If then statements and things like that. We get into, this is beyond the purview of our discussion here, on the nature of logic itself and the transcendent laws of logic, which undergird logical processes.

01:07:10

The transcendent laws of logic, law of identity, law of non -contradiction, law of exclusive middle, proper inference, various things like this are conceptual entities.

01:07:19

Some people say they're mere propositions represented by conceptual entities, but they're conceptual entities that are statements, that are proclamations or recognitions of things that exist, but they're not material.

01:07:29

So they have to be conceptual. They are propositional, conceptual, they're abstractions.

01:07:36

And so therefore, since they're transcendent and they're immutable, it reflects a transcendent, immutable mind. This is just beyond the purview of our discussion here.

01:07:43

Right. Well, I don't want, I certainly don't want geometry to be the hill I die on.

01:07:50

The point I'm trying to make here is that the laws as we understand them, something that you stated yourself just a few moments ago, that God operates with laws that we do not have access to.

01:08:02

We do not know. It may be that. Well, he does call it an unapproachable light. We know that that's the case. That's his aspect.

01:08:08

First Timothy 6 .16, yeah. The point I'm trying to make. That's because the Father is a deli, but go ahead. Well, I think that the whole trinity to some degree exists in an unapproachable light, but that's beside the point.

01:08:18

The point I'm trying to make is that when he says all things in Christ in Philippians, and this is my point with Theosis, so on and so forth, we do not know.

01:08:28

And I don't, I defy you to show me that he is referring to the laws of man as we understand them, or he's referring to the laws of God.

01:08:37

I would say based on experience, things like handkerchiefs, healing people, so on and so forth, that the laws of God are in play here, not the laws of men.

01:08:49

The handkerchiefs. Okay. Can you connect the dots and show me how a saint then is able to potentially be omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent?

01:09:03

Okay, I will state, because I have stated this a couple of times now, Matt, to be fair,

01:09:09

I have no concept in the history or tradition of the church that omnipresent or omnipotent saints have ever existed.

01:09:19

I am simply saying, whatever attribute God wishes to give to a saint, he will give to them.

01:09:27

But you're saying it's potentially, it's potential. So I got a question for you then.

01:09:32

Is it okay to exceed what's written in scripture? What do you mean by exceed?

01:09:38

Go beyond what it says. I still don't know what you mean by exceed. Give me an example. Well, for one thing, it never says, for example, that a saint can hear all prayers simultaneously spoken in thought different languages all over the world.

01:09:50

It doesn't say that in scripture. And you can't even imply that in scripture. Nothing in scripture even implies that.

01:09:58

So you're going beyond what's written, and you're doing it because of your tradition. Okay. So your position is that it's okay to exceed what's written, right?

01:10:06

Well, if you, that's such a weird way to say it. Exceed what is written. I don't quite understand what it means.

01:10:12

And I realize you've explained it, and maybe I'm obtuse. But the point is, when you say exceed what is written, it kind of implies a contradiction of scripture.

01:10:22

And I don't believe we contradict scripture. I believe we guard scripture. We defend scripture.

01:10:28

We preserve its proper interpretation. So I wouldn't, I don't know what you mean by exceed scripture. If we, if you take the commentaries on the scriptures from, you know, say

01:10:37

Saint Chrysostom or Saint Augustine, we consider that part of the church's tradition. But technically they wrote volumes on the scripture that were not the scripture.

01:10:47

Is that exceeding the scripture? Well, it would be if what they taught violated the scripture. So if one of the church fathers said that, for example,

01:10:56

Jesus was not physically risen from the dead, I'm not saying anyone did. They wouldn't do that, I don't think. No, no, the father would say that.

01:11:01

Right. But if someone did that, that would obviously be false. It would be exceeding what's written. They would go, they'd contradict it.

01:11:07

They'd go beyond what is written in the word of God. Well, one thing that I should point out is that if somebody said

01:11:13

Jesus was, you know, not risen, say, for example, before the gospel was written, he'd still be going to hell.

01:11:19

He'd still be a heretic. And he would technically not be exceeding what is written because it wasn't written yet. Well, it was written in the

01:11:26

Old Testament. And, um, you know, and so he would have had the scriptures, which are prophesied the physical resurrection of Christ and his deity and incarnation and all that kind of stuff.

01:11:33

But not all Jews believe. They, they made up a story if we remember the gospel. We're talking about the scriptures, but people believe it or not.

01:11:40

Well, the issue is whether the scriptures say. No, I'm talking about the scriptures. I'm saying that after the resurrection, the, uh, the party of the scribes and Pharisees, they went and they paid off the

01:11:50

Roman guard to say that the body was stolen. So I'm, I'm, I am still within speaking within the bound of the scriptures.

01:11:56

My point is that contemporaneously with those events, had someone said that they would not have been exceeding the scriptures, but they still would have been a hell bound heretic and a liar.

01:12:09

Um, you mean if someone had said that Jesus did not physically rise, people said that because the gospel records them.

01:12:16

Right. But we're talking about what's exceeding the scripture that we are not to exceed what is written so that we don't become a principle of not exceeding.

01:12:25

Maybe that, maybe if you could point that out in scripture would help me. Well, I'm sorry, what? If you could point out where it talks about exceeding scripture and scripture, that might help.

01:12:33

Uh, first Corinthians four, six. Now, these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sake, so that in us, you may learn not to exceed what is written so that none of you will become arrogant on behalf of one another.

01:12:46

I guess what? What's the words again? First Corinthians four, six.

01:12:52

I put it in the text in the chat room there. If you can see it. And these things, brethren, I have on a figure transfer to myself and to Apollo for your sake, that you might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

01:13:07

For who maketh thee to differ one from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive?

01:13:13

Now that thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory as if thou hadst not received it? Okay, now you are full, now you're rich, you've reigned as kings without us, and I would to God you did reign that we might reign with you.

01:13:25

For I think that God has sent forth us the apostles last as they were appointed to death, for he made a spectacle unto the world and to angels and to men.

01:13:32

We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ. We are weak and you're strong. You're honorable, but we are despised.

01:13:39

I'm really confused as to, I'm looking for the whole exegesis about, you know, kind of figuring out what the succeeding scripture means.

01:13:46

It's interesting, and I don't think we do it, but I'm still not, I feel like, because it doesn't, it's not saying, it says that you might learn not to think of men above that which is written.

01:13:59

Well, okay, well, then don't do that, but that's not exceeding scripture. That's talking about, you know, exceeding men, or esteeming men.

01:14:09

It's actually an idiom. What it means is not above what is written.

01:14:17

So that nobody is to go above what's written. In other words, Jesus himself quoted the word of God.

01:14:23

He's God in flesh, and he could have rebuked anybody and did it. He quoted scripture. Paul quoted scripture, and the devil did too, because he recognized what he wanted to do with putting scripture was trying to set

01:14:32

God against God by his own word. So Satan was the one who was trying to misrepresent and alter the interpretation of something in order to get

01:14:40

Christ to do and say something he wasn't saying to begin with. He was trying to get God to contradict himself.

01:14:46

Yeah, and that can't happen. But this phrase here, you know, not to exceed what's written, not to go beyond what is written in the word of God.

01:14:52

The word of God is our standard. Even Christ affirmed the sufficiency of scripture, and he denounced a lot of aspects of tradition.

01:15:01

I'm curious, this doesn't actually talk about the sufficiency of scripture, but this is talking about a specific item.

01:15:10

And I'm not saying that he's saying don't exceed the authority. I disagree with you that he's saying don't exceed the authority of what is written on this item.

01:15:19

I, but he's talking about something specific, and he's making, he talks about it in depth.

01:15:24

It doesn't say the authority what's written. It says above what is written. Literally, it's just an expression that you might not think of men above what is written, beyond what is written, exceeding what is written.

01:15:35

Well, he's talking more so about the way people are supposed to behave. I mean, that's the entire chapter.

01:15:42

Let a man so account of us as the ministers of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover, it is required in stewards that a man be found faithful.

01:15:50

For me, it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment. Yea, I judge not mine own self, for I know nothing about myself.

01:15:57

Yet I am not hereby justified, but he that judges me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time until the

01:16:04

Lord come, who will bring both to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then every man shall have praise of God.

01:16:12

And so, the point I'm trying to make is, he clearly encountered, if I am assuming the context correctly, he clearly encountered that in the church of the

01:16:23

Corinthians, that the leaders had become puffed up. And he was telling them that they had gone against what is written.

01:16:33

What's he talking about, what is written? That would be the Old Testament. Okay, so not to exceed even what's written in the

01:16:40

Old Testament. Can you show me the stuff about people hearing everybody's prayers in...

01:16:47

Well, you've already gone over this. I can't, I think we're, again, confusing theoretical possibilities with what the tradition of the church says.

01:16:57

Because you're asking me, theoretically, can God grant these omnis to a person, to a saint?

01:17:05

I'm saying theoretically, yes. But I've also said practically, no, that has not happened. I don't want to proscribe

01:17:13

God. I don't want to confine him. But you said that the saints could do this, that they could hear all prayers simultaneously.

01:17:22

And you said, because they're united. I'm just following your logic. So, if you were a bishop, then would this become sacred tradition, where now we can become omnipotent or omnipresent, if it's possible?

01:17:36

Saints, they're given the rules by the apostles, and they've been given the rules.

01:17:42

No, no, no. You mean Paul the apostle gave your bishop in New Jersey, I think it was?

01:17:48

Gave him, Paul gave it to him? Paul personally gave it to him? Paul did not, no, it's been 2 ,000 years since then.

01:17:56

So Paul did not give it to him? The apostle did not give it to him? Paul gave it to another person. He gave it to another person, another person, another person, another person.

01:18:04

That's how succession works. So the thousands, probably hundreds, you know,

01:18:09

I don't know, 500, whatever. Who knows? But, I mean, hundreds, right? Hundreds of people.

01:18:16

Okay. And this is disseminated, this tradition is disseminated, how far and wide?

01:18:22

Is it only among the Eastern Orthodox? Well, no, it used to be, I mean, the

01:18:27

West used to be Orthodox. You know, I mean, one of the things that I thought was interesting, when

01:18:32

I started trying to understand your position, and I started reading about the history of the

01:18:38

Reformation, I got, you know, and I'm not going to digress too much here, but I started reading, you know,

01:18:44

Luther's open letter to the German nation. And in it, I, frankly, except for a few things,

01:18:51

I agree with 95 % of it. Because, you know, a lot of the things that he was complaining about in the West were things that after the schism of 1054, during the investiture controversy,

01:19:01

Hildebrand, who was Pope Gregory VII, effectively transformed, radically, the

01:19:08

Church in the West, and made it a heavier yoke than it ever meant to be. So when

01:19:14

Luther is complaining about, say, for example, the butter letters, I know, personally, as a

01:19:19

Western Right Orthodox Christian, precisely what fast Luther was using and why he was complaining about it.

01:19:25

Because he was complaining that, effectively, the popes were giving the rich the ability to fast to not fast from dairy, when you're supposed to be fasting from dairy during Great Lent, and so on and so forth.

01:19:37

So there was, even Luther was aware of Western tradition then. The point I'm trying to make is, yes, there was tradition in the

01:19:44

West, but after the 11th century, with what we call the investiture controversy, the bishops of the

01:19:50

West were effectively killed off by the party of the Hildebrandites, and the religion was replaced.

01:19:55

There were thousands of married priests, happily married priests in the West, and so on and so forth, and the bishops were supportive.

01:20:01

Those bishops were removed. Those priests were removed. The entire thing was rewritten. This is one of the things that blew my mind.

01:20:08

I was listening to you, um, and I'm digressing again, I was listening to your debate with Bob St.

01:20:14

Genes, and at one point he's talking about the pedigree, and he's like, you know, the pedigree, and, you know, if there had been some guy who just came up and made a religion and took it over, there literally was,

01:20:24

I'm the guy telling you this, look it up, Gregory VII Hildebrand, look up Clement III, he was the actual last real pope of the

01:20:32

West, tried to make peace with the Orthodox, they took it off, they started going for the crusade, the

01:20:37

Hildebrandite party, and they literally rewrote the church in the West. So ultimately, what caused the reformation was the abuses that Rome created in the 11th century.

01:20:51

And that was the fuel, I would say, for the fire, and then, um, Luther read scripture.

01:20:58

Yeah, he did. And then found out what the Bible really teaches when against what they're saying. So look,

01:21:04

I've been grilling you for a while. Do you want to grill me? I mean, just trying to be fair, do you want to fire questions at me?

01:21:11

I mean, do you want me to help you? From my perspective, I'm in the church, so it's my job to make sure that you have all your questions answered.

01:21:18

No matter how abhorrent they might appear at first glance. Well, let's talk about,

01:21:24

I don't know, I mean, I have questions, but... Go for it. Okay, so do you have, what do you have to do to get your sins forgiven?

01:21:35

Uh, well, first you should believe and be baptized. Okay, so to get your sins forgiven, you have to believe, be baptized, anything else?

01:21:47

That depends on how long you live. Normal person, 20 years after belief, let's just say, okay.

01:21:53

So a normal person, you have to avoid sin, if you can avoid sin.

01:22:00

Anything else? Confess your sin. Confess your sin, anything else?

01:22:06

No, no, Christ forgives you, that's, I mean, yeah, I mean, in terms of you're talking about, you said something about sin, so I was answering that.

01:22:15

So are these things necessary for salvation? Well, absolutely, you know, you can't go to heaven with sin. That's when the deacons drag you down the toilet.

01:22:22

I would say the belief is necessary, but you're saying that if baptism is listed here, then therefore it's necessary to be baptized,

01:22:30

I'm assuming in water. That's a good assumption. Actually, that was one thing that disturbed me in a discussion

01:22:36

I did see that you had, that I was a little bothered by something you said that was concerned. Sure. You said it was possible that Christ was baptized by sprinkling.

01:22:45

Yes. That, I have never heard that. That's, I think it's literally, that's, that's, that's insane.

01:22:52

It sounds like you've been talking to too many papers. That was my thinking. I'm like, no, no, that's not right.

01:22:57

Baptist saying means he works. We, we know that. So it doesn't necessarily. Well, it did in that context.

01:23:04

No, it doesn't necessarily. You think he was sprinkled? You really think that? Yeah, the reason Jesus was baptized, according to Matthew 3, 15, was to fulfill all righteousness.

01:23:14

So he gives the reason. He gives the reason why he's baptized to fulfill. Fulfill what?

01:23:19

Old Testament. But where was he baptized? I'm sorry? Where was he baptized? In the river.

01:23:25

In the Jordan? Yeah. So you think he got in the Jordan and then John the Baptist sprinkled stuff on him?

01:23:31

Yes. From my opinion. Yes. I can give you a reason why, if you want. Sure. From scripture.

01:23:39

So if he was to fulfill the scriptures. Oh, I'm looking at my wife, making sure she's okay.

01:23:45

You okay, hon? All right. To fulfill scripture means the Old Testament. Now, Jesus did say in John 5, 39, you search the scriptures because in them you think you have eternal life, but it is these that bear witness of me.

01:23:56

So the Old Testament's about him. Now, we know that he's a priest after the order of Melchizedek. Hebrews 5, 6, and 7 talks about this.

01:24:03

Well, coincidentally, if he was to fulfill scripture at his baptism, which really interesting is that it looks like he was fulfilling the requirements for entering into the priesthood.

01:24:15

Because if you go to Leviticus chapter 8, Numbers chapter 4, and Exodus 29, you'll see that, and I have an article written on this with the references there, that in order to enter into the priesthood, a man had to be 30 years of age.

01:24:29

Jesus was 30. He had to have oil anointing on him, and that represents the Holy Spirit, 1

01:24:34

John 2, 27. He had to have a verbal blessing given. My love is unto whom I'm well pleased. And he had to have water sprinkled on him.

01:24:41

That's Numbers 8, 7. And so he had to. And the word baptism, which is really interesting because in Hebrews 9, 10, the word there, if you were to go to, you can just look it up,

01:24:54

Hebrews 9, 10, do a little bit of research. The word washings there is the Greek word baptizmos, baptizmos.

01:25:02

And if you read the context of what it's saying, it's talking about sprinkling in the context.

01:25:10

Just do your homework later. If you want me to do it right now, I can read it to you. I'd kind of prefer to do it right now because I'm going to be totally honest.

01:25:20

Matt, I think you're demonstrating exactly why I have a problem with using Scripture alone. We know, we have no doubt whatsoever, that Christ was baptized by immersion in the river

01:25:31

Jordan. The river Jordan literally changes direction on the feast of the baptism of our

01:25:37

Lord. What you're saying is kind of like you're pointing out things, necessities for the priesthood, so on and so forth.

01:25:46

But if you think he was sprinkled, you missed the point. And so the biblical evidence is that in order to enter the priesthood, a man had to be sprinkled.

01:25:58

That's what it says. I'm just telling you what it says. So you have to just accept that.

01:26:05

I mean, I'll read the verse to you. And number is 8 -7. All right. This isn't proof, but it's what they said.

01:26:11

It was everything was baptized by John the Baptist. After all, it was John the Baptist. I didn't say that. I didn't say that.

01:26:17

But look, this is thus you shall do for them for their cleansing. Sprinkle purifying water on them and let them use a razor over their whole body.

01:26:22

Wash your clothes. They shall be clean, blah, blah, blah. So what Matthew did is represent, it looks like, by extracting certain things out of the

01:26:32

Old Testament requirements, and he related them to Christ. And the verbal blessing, he's showing his priesthood work.

01:26:40

Now, the word baptizo, some people just require that it means immersion.

01:26:46

Not necessarily. This is Hebrews 9 -10. Since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, that's the word baptizmos, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.

01:26:59

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, he entered through the greater, more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, as it is to say, not of his creation, and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, he entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

01:27:13

For if the blood of goats and bulls and ashes of a heifer, sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify the cleansing of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, etc, etc.

01:27:21

Now, it's interesting that the word washings here is referring to the Old Testament things. And the

01:27:27

Old Testament things were sprinklings. You can do the homework later if you want. Well, I have no problem with pointing, with agreeing with you that Old Testament sprinkling was used.

01:27:38

However, there has just never been in the history of the church the idea, you can check the 1st century, 2nd century, 3rd century, that baptism was talked about since the time of the apostles.

01:27:49

And it has always been understood as a full immersion in the water. That's not what I understand.

01:27:55

And I don't care if they did or didn't. It doesn't matter to me. Well, I mean, but we do. That's my point. And it's important to us because—

01:28:00

It's not inspired. Well, how do you know? Because the only thing stated to be inspired, 2

01:28:06

Timothy 3 .16, is the word of God. Why is it that the word is inspired?

01:28:11

Because the word reflects the character of God. Okay, great.

01:28:18

So how is— That tradition does not— Well, I'm curious as to how it is that a Greek -speaking church in the 1st century, and the 2nd, and the 3rd, and the 4th, all the way down from the beginning, read this word in Greek and saw immersion.

01:28:39

Well, and here's how they miss it. I'm just curious because that's the one thing that I don't get.

01:28:46

It's a great theoretical argument. I'm not saying it doesn't sound good. It does. But what it doesn't sound like is what happened.

01:28:57

So you said it does sound good because of Scripture. So let me give a principle for you here that might be worth looking at.

01:29:07

The church, even while the apostles were around, was moving into apostasy, which is why the epistles are written, to correct error.

01:29:17

So without the apostles being around, how do you think the church is going to do, particularly in a time of persecution and scattering?

01:29:23

Well, I think that we're still in those days. So then if they were in error while the apostles were there, and Christ had the apostles write

01:29:33

Scripture to correct those errors, once the apostles were gone, then you're saying no more error crept in, everything was fine?

01:29:39

Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, that's why we have words like homo oasus, and we have words like the trinity.

01:29:47

You know the point I'm trying to make? Because these are these... Yeah, I got you. ...of what was there, the original teaching.

01:29:54

Yeah, except that... And all of that was Scripture. Take, for example, the apostolic canons written by the apostles.

01:30:01

And those rules that are still used in orthodoxy today. So the question becomes, you know,

01:30:09

I'm saying the Scripture is part of it. St. Irenaeus, for example, defines it with the creed, the

01:30:14

Scriptures, and the apostolic succession working together. You can't have one without the other. So the point is...

01:30:22

Go ahead. That's what you say. But, you know, when you appeal to the church fathers, there's a problem.

01:30:30

Because the church fathers often contradict each other. I know. Okay, so...

01:30:36

I answered that. You see, when the church fathers contradict each other, which is actually much rarer than you would think...

01:30:44

That's more common than you'd think. What? No, no, I looked actually at your church fathers section, and I noticed that even some of the church fathers you noted actually taught exactly the opposite of what you said in other passages.

01:30:58

But that's not... And they even contradict themselves, exactly. But they weren't talking against themselves.

01:31:04

It's that if you put everything in context, they had a consistent teaching. But what I'm trying to say is that the fathers in general have a consistent teaching, and when they disagree, as explained in the

01:31:13

Commonitory, which I mentioned earlier from St. Vincent of Florence, you go by what the ancients approved of, and you don't go further than what was already agreed upon.

01:31:23

And you leave that question out. Then when you deal with heresy, you know it's heresy.

01:31:30

Otherwise, we just assume everyone's disagreements. Irenaeus, for example, I saw someone talking about someone... When I was researching, someone had said

01:31:37

St. Irenaeus thought that our Lord was 50. But he didn't. He said, I think our

01:31:43

Lord's 50, and he made a bunch of arguments for it, and he tried to argue that Christ looked old, and then he tried to say, well, in the

01:31:48

Scriptures, they said you're not even 40 years old yet. Why would he say that if he was 33?

01:31:54

So the point is, you know, but he was obviously wrong, because he was like, and all those people who think that Ptolemy's right, and that Jesus died, lived till 33, they're wrong.

01:32:04

He had to be 50. Well, St. Irenaeus was wrong, and that's why his view on that didn't quite survive, even though a lot of his other views, which were really good, did.

01:32:14

Could we get back to the issue of salvation? Because you said belief, which I agree, because the

01:32:20

Scriptures clearly teach that. Okay. Baptism, which we could debate for a while, but I'm concerned about this one, avoid sin.

01:32:27

Do you have to avoid sin in order to be saved? Yeah. Okay. Have you sinned today?

01:32:36

Probably. I'm glad you affirmed that, because if you asked me the same thing, I'd say definitely. Okay, good, good.

01:32:43

Yeah, so. I'd be very afraid if you didn't. Oh, no, trust me. If you hung around with me, it would not take very long for you to say that guy's a sinner.

01:32:50

Yeah, well, it would take someone else to tell me first, and then I'd be like, oh, because I don't usually notice. I'm kind of obtuse that way. Well, trust me, my friends, they know me.

01:32:58

I'm a sinner. So you did not avoid sin today. So you lost your salvation?

01:33:05

To some degree. I hope my sins weren't that bad, but I'm going to have to confess my sins. So you haven't confessed them yet?

01:33:12

No, I tried. That's actually why the bishop was calling back. So, oh, okay. So if you have to confess them, which is 1

01:33:21

John 1 .9, we confess our sins. He's faithful, just to forgive us our sins. That's great. So you've not confessed them yet. So are you presently then in a state of being lost?

01:33:29

That's a good question, because now I've just actually confessed that I have sinned. I haven't confessed what the sins are.

01:33:36

But if I were to do that, I mean, in theory, I could do that on this show. I wouldn't do that, because that's embarrassing, and that's why public confession eventually disappeared.

01:33:45

But the point is, confess your sins to one another. You can confess to one another if you have to.

01:33:52

It's just a question of the situation. The normative method is to go to a priest, or in my case, the bishop, because I'm lucky that way, and just confess your sins.

01:34:04

So are you presently, because you have sinned and haven't confessed it and dealt with it yet, are you presently in a state of salvation or forgiveness or not?

01:34:10

Well, I don't know if you make distinction between sins that are more deadly and sins that are not.

01:34:16

I don't think I did any deadly sins. Well, there are sins that are worse than others, absolutely. The scripture just makes that distinction that there is a sin that is deadly.

01:34:25

That's why I said that. So the point I'm trying to make, I don't think I did any deadly sins. You probably didn't do any deadly sins today,

01:34:31

I don't think. I don't know. I don't know. I don't have a very high opinion of myself. You're prouder than I am there.

01:34:37

I'm a pretty proud guy, unfortunately, and that's one of my big sins, one of the top seven.

01:34:43

Well, then you and I can shake hands on that one. Not that I'm accusing you, but I'm guilty of that myself.

01:34:50

But the thing is, if you have to avoid sin in order to be saved, and you didn't avoid sin today, then logically you're not saved.

01:34:57

Not right now, no. You neither. So then, that's your position, not mine.

01:35:02

So then you're admitting right now that you've not done enough good to keep yourself saved.

01:35:12

Yeah, that's the purpose of doing good to begin with. Okay. So you keep your salvation by how good you are?

01:35:19

You keep your salvation by doing good and avoiding sin. Okay. Then why does the

01:35:26

Bible say a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law, Romans 3 .28 and Romans 4 .5, for the one who does not work, but believes his faith is reckoned as righteousness?

01:35:37

Well, in the first case, you're not saved by works of the law. No one is saved by works of the law, and we don't believe that.

01:35:43

Because the works of the law that are being referenced there are the works of the law in the Old Testament, and we are released from that.

01:35:51

We don't believe that at all. But if you're assuming that works are saving me, they're not.

01:35:56

What I'm saying, and the reason I phrase it the way I did, is I'm actually quoting St. Mark the Ascetic in the fourth century.

01:36:02

And what he said when somebody asked, what is the purpose of good works? He said the purpose of good works is to avoid sin.

01:36:07

In other words, if you fill your life with good works, as St. Paul says in Romans, you won't sin.

01:36:13

But we don't do that. We sin. Well, I agree. As long as you're doing good, you're not going to be sinning.

01:36:19

But the issue is, though, that you're admitting right now you're in a state of damnation. Well, I don't know that I'm in a state of damnation.

01:36:27

I know that I'm— Seriously, your sins aren't forgiven. You're not saved. Well, that's not sins. Right now,

01:36:32

I've got two on my list. I confess pretty often, you know what I mean? Okay. Well, maybe four, because I did get into an argument today, but that was really due to stress.

01:36:41

Well, you know, I'm talking about generically, you know, you've sinned, I've sinned. You know, these particulars aren't really the issue.

01:36:47

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Yeah, Romans 3 .23. But the thing is that, you know, you said you haven't confessed your sins.

01:36:57

So you're in a state right now where your sins are not forgiven. Well, I confess my sins, that I have sins now.

01:37:03

So I've started that process. Plus, on top of that, I'm also busy, and I think I'm doing a good work by being here.

01:37:09

So I'm hoping that—you know, hopefully I don't get hit by a car from the attic here. But, you know, if that happens, then

01:37:15

I guess I'm doomed. But I don't think they were deadly sins. So I'll probably make it out of the toll houses. He can't—okay, sorry.

01:37:21

So when the Bible says that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law, you mean that's just a

01:37:26

Mosaic law? Right. So that Mosaic law includes Deuteronomy 6 .5,

01:37:33

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind. And Leviticus 19 .18, Love your neighbors yourself, which

01:37:38

Jesus reiterated as the greatest of the commandments in Matthew 22, 37, and 39, respectively. So we're not to do those things either?

01:37:45

That's not what he's talking about? You always have to do those things. That's the essence of the gospel. But you said that Romans 3 .28,

01:37:53

we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. That would logically mean apart from loving

01:37:58

God and apart from loving your neighbor. But the problem with your argument is that you're basically saying that—you're basically saying because Christ quoted the greatest two commandments, because that was the context of the question, which is the greatest commandment, you're basically saying that therefore we have all 619 or whatever commandments of the

01:38:17

Old Testament to follow. And that's not true. The whole point of him pointing to the two greatest commandments was to say, this is what matters.

01:38:26

So is sin breaking the law of God? Uh, yeah. Well, sin is the mark, literally, but yeah.

01:38:32

1 John 3 .4, sin is breaking the law of God. It's lawlessness. So you lose your salvation by breaking the law of God?

01:38:39

Yeah. Right. Okay. Do you keep your salvation by keeping the law of God? Sure. So your salvation is dependent upon your performance in your works?

01:38:48

Uh, I don't know that I'd go that far. Your salvation depends upon maintaining the struggle. Would you agree, then, that you're saved by grace through faith after all you can do?

01:38:58

Yeah, because that's the only thing that makes the works work. Yeah, I just quoted the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25 .23.

01:39:04

Well, that's great. Um, you know, I don't—I'm sure that you could probably find Max Licato saying that, too.

01:39:09

That doesn't matter. If a thing is right, regardless of who says it. Mormons teach that God came from another planet and needs to earn your salvation, and the greatest pernicious doctrine instituted by Satan, the

01:39:20

Mormon eldership, teaches the apostle. Okay, but that's not the

01:39:25

Orthodox teaching, so why do I care? Well, they just teach that justification by faith alone and Christ alone is worth the doctrine of evil.

01:39:32

You have to keep works and do good things in order to keep yourself right with God. I'm just saying the same thing. Well, I don't know. Well, that's actually a good point, because the question of justification by faith alone is an interesting—is an interesting point.

01:39:44

Quiz me, then. Sure. Um, so you believe that a person who does, you know, who does believe, and then does all horrible—like, all sorts of horrible things.

01:39:53

Jeffrey Dahmer, for example. Um, you know, he was supposedly believed before he, you know, was killed in prison.

01:40:00

My question is, what if, you know, again, a person who does evil, horrible things and claims to believe in God?

01:40:10

First John 2 .4, if you say you know him and do not keep his commandments, the truth is not in you and you're a liar. Would that be?

01:40:17

I mean, what commandments would those be? Those are works. Loving God, loving your neighbor. Oh, okay.

01:40:22

So if you're doing those things, does that mean you're in a works -based system? Of course not.

01:40:28

Okay, so by what cause do you condemn me? You're the one saying you keep your salvation by your abiding by the law of God.

01:40:37

The commandments of God that you just mentioned. Now, you asked me about Dahmer or people like that who are justified by faith and then they do evil things.

01:40:45

I quoted you First John 2 .4. You're saying justification by faith alone. Yeah, faith alone is what justifies us before God.

01:40:53

Yes, but you have to keep that faith, demonstrate that faith, and live that faith. Why? So God can figure out if you really have faith or not?

01:41:00

No, so you could. I already know I have faith. I don't have to keep doing anything to prove it.

01:41:07

Well, but my view would be that if you're not in the church, for example, it's imperfect. It's not the same.

01:41:13

Well, I'm not in your particular traditional man -centered false church.

01:41:19

I'm in the true church. What kind of Christian church isn't man -centered? God came to save man. The true church is supposed to be

01:41:27

Christ -centered and preaching Christ crucified and looking to Christ and his work and his blood that shed and justification by faith without the works of the law.

01:41:37

That's what the true church is supposed to be doing. Now, this is one of the things that I thought was very interesting, because up until probably the 18th century, about half of the churches that were

01:41:49

Bible -believing didn't have a cross in them to preach the cross. They considered it wrong, like the

01:41:55

Jehovah's Witnesses. They don't have to have a physical cross in order to preach the cross. It's irrelevant.

01:42:02

So you have a cross behind you. It's a physical cross. Why? Because someone sent it to me, and it's got a great verse on it, which

01:42:09

I think is deadly to your position. Colossians 2 .14. That's a great verse. I just left it there and haven't moved it since.

01:42:15

When I was on an anti -Islam TV show. What's that? Well, I'm saying,

01:42:21

I said, if it's devastating to my position, then I gotta know. I got a handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

01:42:34

Okay? So what's the handwriting of ordinances that Jesus canceled or took away at the cross?

01:42:40

Look at the previous words. And you being dead in your sins in the uncircumcision of your flesh, having quickened together with him, having forgiven you your trespasses.

01:42:49

Oh, wait, let's go to 12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

01:42:57

How do they bury people in baptism? There's different forms of burial.

01:43:03

Some people can bury above ground, some below ground. Well, they bury them in water. It's immersion.

01:43:08

Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay. You said how they bury. But go on. Okay. And you being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, with him, having forgiven you all trespasses, all trespasses, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and he took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.

01:43:30

And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

01:43:37

Let no man, therefore, judge you for your traits, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the

01:43:44

Sabbath days, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ. But how's that demolished my position?

01:43:51

Okay, I'll show you. In verse 14, it says that the handwriting of ordinances, which is the

01:43:56

King James, was taken out of the way, nailing it to the cross. So when was the handwriting of ordinances taken?

01:44:03

What ordinances are you talking about? One question at a time. When was the handwriting of ordinances taken away?

01:44:09

When it was nailed to the cross. Amen. So that's talking about Jesus and the whole bit on the cross, right?

01:44:15

Right. What's the ordinances? That's the next question. What is the handwriting of ordinances? Well, I want to know how you interpret that.

01:44:23

Well, I happen to know this verse, and there's the Greek word, and I'm going to show off now.

01:44:29

I'm going to totally show off and use a word I don't get to use very often. Hapaxlegomena. It's a fancy word, and it means a word that occurs once in a body of text.

01:44:39

The original word here we have in the King James is three words. Handwriting of ordinances. In Greek, it's just one word.

01:44:47

Kairagraphon. That's why that word is, that's why it's back there like that in Greek. Kairagraphon. And it's really an interesting word.

01:44:54

And what it means, I did a lot of research on it. It means a handwritten IOU of legal indebtedness.

01:45:04

And it's Kairagraphon. So blotting out the handwriting of ordinances. Now, that's what the

01:45:10

King James says. Let's look at the, I like the NASB. Excuse me. The NASB says certificate of debt.

01:45:18

The ESV, wait a minute. I want to do that. Let's do it this way. Hold on. All I do is put my comparison thing in.

01:45:25

Colossians 2 .14. And the ASV 1901 says blotted out the bond written in ordinances.

01:45:37

The ESV, the record of debt. The Geneva, handwriting of ordinances. The NASB, certificate of debt.

01:45:45

The NIV, legal indebtedness. The new King James, handwriting of requirements.

01:45:53

So it's a tough one to translate. It really is. Because Kairagraphon, you know, it's just a tough one to translate.

01:46:01

And so when I look, I'll just tell you what I'm doing right now. The certificate of debt. I'm doing, okay, darn it.

01:46:08

Oh God. There it is. Kairagraphon. I'm looking at dictionary. Handwritten statement, especially a record of financial accounts.

01:46:15

Similar in meaning to drama account. It goes on. Account record of debts. He canceled the record of our debts.

01:46:22

That's one lexicon that says that. Right. But that still doesn't answer what it is.

01:46:29

Exactly. And I would offer that there's two things that it could be. Our sin debt or the

01:46:36

Old Testament law. I don't, I honestly don't know of anything else. It could be.

01:46:42

Well, I was, I was going to go with the Old Testament law, but that's. Okay. Let's go the Old Testament law. I don't have any problem with that.

01:46:49

If the Old Testament law is what's canceled at the cross, taken out of the way, then there's a problem. And the problem is because of Romans 5, 13.

01:46:57

For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

01:47:04

If the Old Testament law was canceled at the cross. Then there is no way sin can be imputed to anybody.

01:47:14

Give me just one second, because just for the, because I don't want to get the church teaching wrong and get into another theoretical teaching.

01:47:22

So I just, yeah, I just jumped onto a, you know, a St. John Chrysostom's commentary on Colossians and went to a 114.

01:47:29

So let me, let's do 14. And we're going to have to start wrapping this up. Maybe continue this another time, but yeah.

01:47:37

Okay. So would it be okay if I did that? If I just. Yeah, I don't care. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. So let's see here.

01:47:46

Let's see. It's going to take longer than the five minutes we have left. Why don't you just, you know, seriously Colossians 2, 14.

01:47:51

It is a fascinating verse and one of my favorites in the entire Bible. Check it out. We can talk another time.

01:47:57

All right, here it is. Here we go. Having forgiven us, he says, all our trespasses, those which produce that deadness.

01:48:03

What then? Did he allow them to remain? No, he even wiped them out. He did not scratch them merely so that they could not, they could not be seen.

01:48:10

In quote doctrines ordinances, he says, what doctrines? The faith. It is enough to believe he has not set works against works, but works against faith.

01:48:20

And what next? Blotting out is an advance upon remission. Again, he said, and have taken it out of the way.

01:48:26

Not yet. Even so did he preserve it, but rented even asunder by nailing it to his cross. Having put off for himself the principalities of the powers, he made a show of them opening openly triumphing over them in it.

01:48:37

Nowhere has he spoken so lofty a strange, a strain. Seeth thou how great his earnestness that the bond should be done away.

01:48:44

To wit, we were all under sin and punishment. He himself through suffering punishment did away with both the sin and the punishment as he was punished on the cross to the cross.

01:48:54

Then he affixed it as having power. He tore it asunder. What bond? He means either that which they said to Moses, namely, all that God had said, we will do and be obedient.

01:49:03

Exodus 24, three, or if not that this, that we owe to God obedience, or if not this, he means that the devil held possession of it.

01:49:11

The bond which God made for Adam saying in the day that thou eatest of the tree, thou shall die. Genesis 2 17.

01:49:18

This bond than the devil held in his possession and Christ did not give it to us, but himself tore it into the action of one who remits joyfully.

01:49:26

So I basically, I think that St. John is basically arguing that that's the main what this is.

01:49:32

It's talking about the bond of sin. So sin, so he can't because it says in verse 13, having forgiven us all our transgressions, trespasses, that's a better word for sin, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances.

01:49:45

When you break the law, you've sinned. So this is all canceled at the cross, right? Yeah. Did he cancel it for everybody who ever lived?

01:49:53

Yeah. Well, everybody who would believe on him. Didn't say that. It says. That's from other passages.

01:49:59

We know that obviously not everyone, he died for everyone. So he, wait a minute. So he only canceled their sin debt for those who believe?

01:50:09

God wills all men to be saved. 1 John 2, 4, but that's a context. But here, look, so this verse right here, are you saying that he canceled all of their sins?

01:50:21

No, he canceled all of the debt. Okay. All the debt, sin debt, because sin is breaking his debt.

01:50:26

Jesus says our father, heart and heaven in Matthew 6, 12, forgive us our debts. And Luke 11, 4, forgive us our sins.

01:50:32

So sin is equated to debt. The sin is breaking the law of God. Okay. So forgiven us our trespasses, our sin debt, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances.

01:50:40

Uh, law, sin debt, it's all taken care of at the cross, right? Can you be held responsible for a sin debt that doesn't exist anymore?

01:50:48

Because it's been canceled. No. So then did Jesus bear the sin of everybody who ever lived?

01:50:55

Yeah. Did he cancel the sin debt for everybody who ever lived? That's up to them. No, it's not up to them.

01:51:02

He either canceled it on the cross or he did not cancel on the cross. That's what the verse says. Okay. But what you're effectively, if you follow that to its logical conclusion, then nobody has to believe to begin with.

01:51:13

Nope. No, I didn't say that. Belief is justification. This is different than the removal of our sin or the removal of our sin occurred by Christ.

01:51:21

If you're justified or not, if it's been removed, if all that is removed from the cross. Position I hold to is that on the cross,

01:51:29

Jesus only canceled the sin debt for the elect, the ones given to him by the father.

01:51:34

Then God later on infallibly brings them into the faith by granting that they believe,

01:51:40

Philippians 1 .29, so that they're then justified. The removal of sin, the sin that occurred at the cross, and the imputation of righteousness occurs upon our faith, which is justification.

01:51:51

Okay. So people who don't believe or as we'll say, not elect, is their sin debt canceled?

01:51:58

No. Otherwise, they'd be going to heaven because if their sins are canceled, they can't go to hell. Then your original question is answered, which was, was all the sin debt canceled on the cross?

01:52:09

You said yes. I say no. The sin debt was only canceled for the elect, not everybody who ever lived.

01:52:15

I said for the intent that God wills all men to be saved. I did not say all men will be saved. It's a different verse. That's a different verse altogether.

01:52:21

We could discuss how God uses the word all in regard to people in regard to salvation. But we do agree here, just so we understand each other, that God willed for all people, but that all people are not saved.

01:52:37

Because we don't have time, if you want to do this another time, I'll show you how he uses the word all in regard to salvation.

01:52:43

I'll show you that the all is not everybody. But we know that in the church.

01:52:48

We know that already. He wants all to be saved. I believe the all is only the left, but that's off topic.

01:52:53

Colossians 2 .14 here, what it's saying is that he forgave us all our trespasses, blotting out the handwriting of ordinances.

01:53:03

If that legal sin debt is canceled at the cross, it's not canceled when you believe.

01:53:09

No, it's canceled at the cross. Well, okay, we're talking about that. Now we're talking about time. But the ultimate thing is it's canceled for the people who believe.

01:53:19

It's not canceled for the people who don't believe. So it was canceled only for the believers at the cross.

01:53:26

That's limited atonement. Welcome to Calvinism. That's not Calvinism. I'm pretty sure we invented that before Calvin.

01:53:35

Well, you don't adhere to it. That's it. He thinks he invented it. We're out of time, though. Yeah. All right.

01:53:42

Well, sorry. Okay. Didn't mean to take up so much time. No, this is fine. I had a good discussion.

01:53:48

You were polite and hope I was polite enough. I think you were very polite. Oh, thank you. I could be insulting later if you want to make up for it.

01:53:55

That's fine. That's fine. We'll just call each other heretics all day. It'll be good. Well, you see, my concern for you is heartfelt.

01:54:02

And I believe you're in a state of damnation and that you've been deceived. And I don't mean it to be insulting.

01:54:07

I mean it to be a very loving, compassionate way. My heart just aches for you. I'll tell you,

01:54:13

I feel that as you are outside the church, you are outside the gate of salvation. I feel the same way.

01:54:19

All right. So you're trying to get me saved by joining your church. I'm trying to get you to say by trusting in Christ.

01:54:25

Well, the church is the body of Christ. So I'm trying to get you in there. Oh, but you said it was, you know, had to have a bishop in it and stuff like that.

01:54:32

It does. So see the different usages. Here we go again. Different members of the body.

01:54:40

There's a whole bunch of stuff we could talk about. They have apostolic authority. That's a whole nother topic.

01:54:45

Yep. You need it. You need it. But we're gonna, we'll get to it. We'll get to it. Yeah, you don't have it and I can show you don't.

01:54:51

But we'll do that next time. Can you hear me? Okay. All right. Yeah. My microphone just went.

01:54:58

So this won't sound too good to end. But I was trying to discussion. Yeah. So, so, so Joseph, there's good discussion.

01:55:07

And I think that it was helpful in a lot of ways and you can always come back. There's nothing saying you can't come back and continue the discussion.

01:55:15

I want to talk first, maybe like, well, we, we expected that this was going to take a majority of time.

01:55:21

There was someone in here, Brian earlier, who I was going to add in, but he dropped out a while ago.

01:55:28

So we couldn't add them in real quick. I just have one question. Kind of a yes or no.

01:55:33

Sure. And I like those. Do you believe that like Matt and I would have to be members of the

01:55:40

Orthodox church to be saved? I would believe that that is the way that was set up in the scriptures.

01:55:48

And even though there were people who did before the formation of the church during the gospel, they did speak in Christ's name and our

01:55:59

Lord said, you know, he, those who are not against us are for us. But I would say that the normative way would be, yeah, you'd have to join the church.

01:56:07

Okay. All right. And yeah, so, I mean, so. I'm not trying to like scary or anything.

01:56:13

Yeah, no, no. And I'm going to invite you to some in a moment, but here's the thing, folks who are listening, I want to encourage you right now on whatever phone you have, just get, get whatever podcast app you have and download or subscribe to,

01:56:29

I should say, the Apologetics Live podcast. This, what you hear right now will become a podcast that we have.

01:56:39

And so that's something that we want to encourage you guys to be, to do.

01:56:46

Now with that, I would, I would say this, and we're going to end up closing out, but.

01:56:53

Before I close out, somebody did send me something. I should mention it. Okay.

01:57:00

The reason it is important, at least from our perspective, to join the church.

01:57:05

If we look at, we know John 6, 53, and we're, I realize it's a whole other topic, but what he says in terms of receiving his body and blood, and I, we can debate that, but for us, that's a real thing.

01:57:17

It's a big deal. You got to do it. Understood. So, so here, here's the thing.

01:57:28

My challenge to you, Joseph, is this, what, as Matt has explained and went through with you, there's a big difference.

01:57:38

You would want us to be part of the Orthodox church to be saved. For Matt and I, we would like you to repent of your sin and believe in Jesus Christ to be saved.

01:57:47

There's a big difference. What you're bringing people to is a church that is crowdsourced.

01:57:54

It was a bunch of men who, you know, got together and decided all this stuff. And we're giving you scripture,

01:58:00

God's word. Now we dealt with it a little bit last week. I see a difference there. I have a whole bunch of questions.

01:58:05

I would, I had written down, it was a totally different approach and I feel bad. I didn't include you. So, yeah, we got it.

01:58:11

So here's the thing. I want to make sure you understand the gospel message because what you're, what you've been proclaiming is not what scripture proclaims is the gospel.

01:58:20

Ephesians 2, 8, 9, Titus 3, 5 makes it very clear that we are saved apart from works and not by works.

01:58:27

Oh, no, I agree with you. But membership of a church, baptism, doing good works are all works.

01:58:33

Well, we know that baptism is in this. Here's the thing. Just hear me out for a sec.

01:58:39

The thing is this, every man -made religion relies on human beings.

01:58:45

Every man -made religion relies on men doing some effort, whether it's added to their faith or completely by their human effort to be in a right state with God.

01:58:56

That's what you've been proclaiming, that we do something with faith plus works, which is what Roman Catholicism says.

01:59:02

Well, not exactly. Hold on because we're over time and I want to wrap up and I want to make sure that before the show is out, you hear the gospel.

01:59:11

Okay, it's not a church that's going to save. It's not a bunch of men from the past.

01:59:17

Even if you want to say that they passed down that succession, what the Bible says is that it is in Christ that we find salvation.

01:59:26

The difference I see is that with what you've been saying this past two hours has been really a man -made religion.

01:59:35

I know you disagree with me. I understand. Fully understand it. But we don't have enough time. But we don't have enough time.

01:59:41

We can get into it next week. But the thing is this, if you believe that Mary can hear all prayers, that things like that, then you're extending, you're adding, as Matt tried to say, you're adding to scripture, which the scripture says that's something to be condemned.

02:00:01

The real important part that I think it's added to is this one thing that is the difference between eternal life and eternal death.

02:00:08

And that is when people add works to salvation. Every single man -made religion has one thing in common, whether it's

02:00:17

Mormonism, which Matt quoted to you, and you agreed with it, because what you believe is this one essential difference.

02:00:25

It's the difference between basically being saved by Christ alone or saved by Christ slash faith plus some works, whether that's baptism, church membership, doing works.

02:00:39

The body and blood of Christ. Yeah. So that actually says whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

02:00:50

We can talk about that at another time, because like I said, we're out of time. We can talk about it at another time. Is that works? We can talk about what's happening at the

02:00:55

Passover. And I'll tell you what, we can continue it somewhere in the after show put on by the council.

02:01:02

And the council has decreed that much of what you've said is wrong. And so you can come into the council show afterwards.

02:01:09

I'll put the link there, but it's been two hours. You're welcome to come back here.

02:01:16

Here's the thing. I really, you know, for Matt and I were concerned with where you spend eternity. And if you believing that works have anything to do with you getting forgiveness of sin, especially when you recognize that that sin was removed at the cross, there's nothing you could do.

02:01:33

It was already done before you were born. So the thing is,

02:01:38

I'm going to move over to the other room now. Okay, so done. Hey, Joe, it's a real fact.

02:01:44

I enjoyed talking to you. Let's talk again. Okay. Sounds good. All right. Okay. I'll be over there in another room.

02:01:49

Okay. So, so Joe, as we close out, my, my, my prayer is that you would, you'd repent of believing in a man made work salvation and believe the gospel.

02:01:59

I know that you think you already do, but every Mormon thinks they do. Every Catholic thinks they do.

02:02:05

Everyone thinks they do. So, so just take to heart, do the, do the study, like Matt gave you some things to look at, check it out.

02:02:11

We can come back next week and see where, where you're at with, with that study and see what new things you have.

02:02:16

All right. Okay. Well, I would definitely learn and maybe next week you can, you can get questions.

02:02:23

So, so folks, this is part of this politics live is a ministry of striving for eternity.

02:02:28

We do it in, in, uh, in correlation with, uh, CARM, uh, two great ministries.

02:02:35

You can check out, you can go to striving for eternity .org, check out some of the classes that we have there.

02:02:40

Some of the podcasts that is who runs the Christian podcast community. So you can check that out and you should also check out

02:02:48

CARM. We've listed a couple of articles already that we've referred to and have been linked. So you can check out those articles at CARM to answer some of these questions.

02:02:57

So until next week, you can remember eight o 'clock Eastern time live, check out apologetics live and see you next week for your challenging questions.