April 5, 2019 Show with Angus Stewart on “The Doctrines of Sovereign Grace in Northern Ireland”

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Opens With Proverbs 27:17 and the Goal of the Program

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this fifth day of April 2019.

And I am thrilled to have a first-time guest today. His name is Angus Stewart, and he is the pastor of the Covenant Protestant Reformed Church of Ballymena, Northern Ireland, and he's going to be discussing today the doctrines of sovereign grace in Northern Ireland, and he's also going to be discussing two Bible conferences that are coming up celebrating the 400th anniversary of the Synod of Dort.

One of the conferences is a conference that he is hosting in Northern Ireland, and the other conference is a conference where he'll be speaking here in the United States in Michigan. But first of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Angus Stewart.

Thanks for inviting me, Chris. I'm delighted to be on air and with you.

Oh, the pleasure is all mine, brother. And first of all, let our listeners know something about Covenant Protestant Reformed Church of Ballymena, Northern Ireland.

Covenant, pretty long name. Three documents.

Amen.

And what we do when we have a first-time guest here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, typically, is we have that individual, if they are Christian, of course, give a summary of their testimony of salvation.

Sometimes, believe it or not, I do have a non-Christian guest on that might have something of great importance to say to the Christian community. He might have written on something, or for some reason or another, I've had him on the program, perhaps even for a debate.

But whenever I have a Christian on the program, I try to remember to have them give their summary of their salvation testimony when they're on for the first time. So if you could let us know something about the religious atmosphere you were raised in, if any, and what providential circumstances our Sovereign Lord raised up in your life to draw you to himself and save you.

Angus Stewart’s Testimony and the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace

Now, who did that?

I'm not sure if the police ever... I think Wilde was sort of a false sense, and then I think the man with his wife, I think.

I was going to say it might have been a very angry member of the ladies' knitting circle. Sometimes they can get very feisty, but that's interesting.

Yeah, ways of women like that.

So I was brought up in the Church of Ireland. I considered it a good work to go to church. I think I probably got up there. I suppose I had a sort of... Then I began to realize that I wasn't actually...

If that book is... So my mother was... The problem was that I couldn't... Didn't want to go to hell. I had some idea of my sin, but not really... And then I gave up. And months passed... I in my sleep...

Summer, we have long days, so... Then I knew which of the four guys I wanted to talk to. Because when I asked him questions, he gave answers from the Bible. I need to talk to my mind. I'm not elect.

I...

Because he had been saying this previously. His own mouth. If I'll be saved. Then he told me that, and I thought... It's not then up to me. It really isn't. Unless I'm elect, I will never believe now.

Praise God.

Salvation. I don't make up my organism. That is... Sovereign grace is...

Sovereign Grace Evangelism, Arminianism, and the Order of Salvation

Yeah, if people are approaching you when you're lost, well-meaning, well-intentioned, but biblically uninformed Arminian Christians... And of course, many of them would not call themselves Arminian.

But when they come up to lost people, as they did to me when I was a teenager, and said, Jesus loves you. And he died for your sins. I remember having a sense of ease be put upon my heart and mind. Because I'm saying to myself, Well, if he really loves me...

In fact, sometimes they will elaborate and they'll say, His love for you is infinite. It can never be broken. Jesus does not change his mind. You could go on and on and on with all kinds of descriptions of love.

And they are very often actually true, descriptions of love, but misapplied. If you're telling somebody that's lost, who's a total stranger to you, that this is true, that could be a great hindrance to you being motivated to repent and flee to Christ.

Could it not?

Yes, of course. He doesn't really need to be seen. The unbelievers would actually, but they found that we have to say a lot more lies.

Yes, in fact, if you are logically consistent with the Reformed faith, you are going to be less prone to use pragmatic gimmicks and tactics to lure someone to Christ. I know that there are professedly Reformed people that do that, but they're being inconsistent.

They're not being logically consistent with their faith. Whereas Arminianism, if you are believing that any human being may be led to saving faith in Christ, you're going to be more prone to be pragmatic.

You may be more prone to softening the gospel message, which not only carries with it good news, it carries horrible news for those who reject that gospel. So therefore, that is one of the beauties of Reformed theology, is if you're really consistent with it, you're going to stick with the Scriptures no matter how unpopular or distasteful the message of the Bible may be at times to the lost.

You're going to stick with it because you know that all you're doing is being used of God to plant and water seeds. Only God can give the increase. Am I right on that?

I am. Amen.

And you mentioned just a moment ago the Ordo Salutis, the Latin phrase for order of salvation. And it is a very controversial and highly misunderstood teaching that we who are Reformed have in regard to this.

I have heard over and over and over again from non-Reformed Christians the accusation that we are teaching that God first gives us new life in Christ, we're born again, but then we could live days, weeks, months, years or decades and then bingo, we finally have faith at some point of our life.

We're walking around as born-again zombies with no faith for a period of time. But that is not what the order of salvation is according to the Reformed faith historically. Isn't it not true that although we believe that regeneration precedes faith, that faith will instantly flow from the heart of that person that is regenerated?

Right, right. Yes, we have instances where John the Baptist, of course, was saved in his mother's womb. We don't have any other example of that in the scripture. But it's interesting that even in that case, I believe that the Lord may have given John the Baptist faith of some kind because he leapt with joy.

There was some reason why even the unborn child leapt with joy in his heart when he was near Christ. That's right.

An incorruptible seed. This is the life of eternal life. Life is as many as received. Even to them, the analogy is out there. Who is this life? Christ. Spirits in us. The Holy Spirit. It's like a person dies and then not just bodily but also to a baby that's born.

That's interesting that I had not heard that that was a teaching of Kuyper. Perhaps I'm wrong because this almost seems like the opposite error. Did not Kuyper believe in presumptive regeneration?

Yes, he did. Maybe many years down the lane.

I see.

I am, of course, but I think he should have stuck.

The thing that I find interesting about this, I think this is a very important issue because many people may think it's only for scholastic or academic conversations amongst theologians in libraries as they sit there in winged leather chairs with snifters of brandy and cigars and that these aren't the kinds of things to be discussed when we're actually out in the streets evangelizing and having conversation with the lost.

But I think it is very important that we convey these issues to people even in the early stages of either hearing the gospel or after they're saved because it really highlights that salvation is of God from beginning to end and that we innately are sinners, we're totally depraved, and we cannot even please God with a faith that saves us prior to being born again which is the opposite of what most evangelicals would say.

They somehow think that we can summon up from our dead cold hearts a faith that pleases God. In fact, as you know, the scriptures even teach that no man in the flesh can please God. Well if saving faith pleases God how could we offer that to God in the flesh without being born again first?

It makes no sense at all, does it?

How are you going to understand the Bible? How are you going to be able to witness to others? How are you going to know what churches dislike this idea that there are some truths in the Bible?

Yeah, Jesus certainly didn't view things that way.

He did not, because we are not to believe that we are wiser than God. If you don't tell that sense, not only are you keeping back what they need, but these people are automatically, pretty much, they need the truth that we're heading back to Roman Catholicism.

We need to take the Bible away from people.

Yeah, the absurdity of denying the Reformed Order of Seleutus is even made more vividly clear when someone mistakenly believes in baptismal regeneration and when someone gets saved as an adult in their minds, you have an adult person who is eager to get baptized.

They love the Lord so much, they want to get baptized, and in their minds, this is going to assist in saving them. They drive to church, or get to church, however they would get there, and they are standing in a baptismal font, excited to experience what is about to occur, the immersion in water, or as some might do it, with sprinkling or pouring.

And yet, the reason why I say this is nonsensical is the man would never be, or the woman, would never be standing in that font if they were not born again to begin with, before the water had any contact with their body.

And it's not only the exercising of your will,.

It's the exercising of your feet and legs walking the aisle to recite a prayer. That has become the third ordinance in many people's minds, and even if they wouldn't call it that, if you don't have an altar call, or an invitation like that in your church, many people are horrified.

They think that you are either liberal, or you don't have any compassion for the lost. But the reason why the congregation where I'm a member doesn't have those altar calls or invitations like that is because they're not in the Bible.

In fact, they haven't even ever existed in church history until Charles Finney.

In fact, Angus, could you read from John 3.

When we return from the break, because we have to go to our first break right now.

That's fine.

Well, just remember that you were going into John 3, so we don't forget. I'm writing it down, Chris. Excuse me?

I'm just writing it down, otherwise I would forget.

I also want to ask you, so you might want to write this down too, you brought up Nicodemus just as we were speaking about baptismal regeneration. Because, obviously, that is a classic text that many who believe in baptismal regeneration bring up because of the involvement of water.

And so people think that means that you need to be baptized with water to be born again. But if you could hold on to those thoughts, and also I want to let our listeners know, if you want to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

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I know that we do have listeners in the UK and in Northern Ireland specifically so if you live near there, I urge you to go to a conference that's coming up next week starting on April 13th which is a Saturday featuring Professor David Engelsma who is just my guest on Wednesday and then there's another conference coming up the 25th, 26th and 27th of April here in the United States in Michigan but we will give you more details momentarily.

Right now if you have a question please send it to ChrisArnsen at gmail .com. ChrisArnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com and please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And by the way I wanted to also clarify something I said earlier. I did not mean to convey the idea that everyone who is standing in a baptismal font wanting to be baptized is genuinely regenerate because there are people who get baptized for all kinds of false reasons there are people who are becoming Jehovah's Witnesses that are baptized in water and Mormons and others but what I was referring to is if somebody genuinely has an eager intense desire to obey Christ in that ordinance and they have true saving faith and are depending upon Him for everything including their salvation, they wouldn't have come to the church to be baptized to begin with if they were not already born again.

That's the message I was trying to convey. Not that everybody that wants to get baptized is born again. So I just wanted to make sure I clarified that issue. But before the break Angus, you wanted to go into John 3 which is also the chapter where we have the story of Nicodemus but I'm not sure exactly where you were going with it when you wanted to bring up.

John 3 again. Let the man be born of by the Holy Spirit. Then he talks about... John Wesley strangely enough actually held both born again by your screaming. There's no such thing.

Of course, I don't know the specific reference of C .S. Lewis' testimony that you're referring to but of course he might have... I'm sorry?

I think it's in his book Surprised by Joy.

Well my point is he might have been referring to as some others may refer to when they use that confusing language those days prior to their rebirth when people were evangelizing them. I can even remember my older brother Bob...

We would be at a party or a family gathering and I would be sitting there by the keg of beer getting intoxicated and I would see him walking towards me and I would be like oh no, here he comes he's going to make my conscience bother me he's going to upset me by evangelizing me and he would begin to do that.

There were days prior to my rebirth when I was opposing the efforts of those evangelizing me and fleeing from them so I don't know if that's what C .S. Lewis was referring to but obviously that is a false character of what Calvinists believe that we are dragged against our will kicking and screaming into heaven rather than being given new hearts by God himself that makes us willing.

So I don't know if you were finished with your thought there but I also did want to ask you what do you think Christ's intention was by using the word water in this conversation with Nicodemus? Do you think it's also connected with the washing of the water of the word as husbands are to do with their wives?

Yes. As a washing work by teachers. Now you clean through the...

I'm assuming you would reject the explanation provided by some who agree with us who are opposed to baptismal regeneration who are saying that is the first birth. The water involved is when somebody is physically born and water flows forth from the womb and so on.

I'm assuming that you're rejecting that idea. Um... Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Is that in Paul Simon's song? I don't know much about history. I don't know. Never mind. But I'm assuming though that that explanation though is off base.

Because that is an off... That is an explanation. I'm sorry.

I'm just going to let it pass. Since you understand it and you're sound you're for me.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Well we have some listener questions before we go on to anything further that you have to say and I also want to have you do something that we have not yet done in this series with your fellow Protestant Reformed pastors on the upcoming conferences.

I wanted to hear something about specifically the doctrines of Sovereign Grace in Northern Ireland and the history of their growth there and what the situation is like today in Northern Ireland to the best of your knowledge of course.

So we hopefully will get to that but we do have a couple of questions. We have a listener in the Republic of Ireland. We have Joe in Dublin, Ireland. And I have to enlarge Joe's email font because it's very very microscopic and I can't read it.

So while I'm doing that I'm going to repeat our email address again. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own and please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Okay, Joe in Dublin, Ireland says, Hi Brother Chris, I have a question for your guest. I have recently read Crisis in the Reformed Churches edited by Peter de Young and the Reformers and their Stepchildren by Leonard Verduin.

The former book is a critical of the latter. The latter makes claims that the Dutch Reformed Church practiced sacralism, walking hand in hand with the civil authorities. However, the former book argues the contrary, that in fact the civil authorities were on the Armenian side of the controversy.

Could your guest offer his perspective on the matter please? That's Joe in County Kildare. Actually he says here he's in Atthai. Atthai County Kildare. Good to hear.

From Joe. For Leonard Verduin paper. Joe, whenever you're, what we now call the next, what we now call the Civil Magistrates where the 80 Years War, the Civil Magistrates over that one, except these Anabaptists, these totally different views of the Anabaptists, really interested in theology.

And we have to go to our.

Midway break right now, and thank you Joe in Atthai, or Atthai.

In Ireland.

There near Dublin. Keep listening and keep writing in questions. We have to go to our midway break right now. It's a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, airs this program twice a day in a pre-recorded format, and they need this time during the show to air their own Lake City, Florida area public service announcements and commercials to localize the show to Lake City.

So please use this time wisely. While we are airing our commercials that are heard globally on our end, please write down the information provided by these advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, so that we can remain on the air, because we need the advertising dollars that come from these ads.

We'll also use this time to send in a question to our guest today, Angus Stewart, to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com,. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing, we're going to be right back after these messages with more of Angus Stewart.

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