Exposing Fossil Frauds: Dr. Carl Werner Interview

Well, hello, friends, and welcome to the Reform Rookie Podcast. My name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm your Reform Rookie host, bringing you all things reformed today. The goal of this channel and this podcast is to take the deep truths of the reformed tradition and help you see the beauty in them and the joy you'll experience in understanding them better.

Understanding these truths will help you better know the God of the scriptures and help us to better appreciate his plan of salvation. And to that we say Semper Firmanda. Well, today I'm very excited to introduce my guest for today's show, as he is a scientist that confirmed and validated what the scriptures teach about creation to be true.

And he did this using science. It was actually the scientific process that led him to Christ. You might say he came into the church through the back door or through a microscope. Science and the use of the scientific method led him to faith in the Christ of the scriptures.

So with that, my guest is Dr. Carl Werner, and he's the author of Evolution, the Grand Experiment book series, and the executive producer of Evolution, the Grand Experiment video series, which is played on seven television networks in 70 countries.

He received an undergraduate degree in biology with distinction at the University of Missouri. He graduated summa cum laude. He received his doctoral degree in medicine at age 23. Formerly, he was an adjunct assistant professor in the Department of Surgery at St. Louis University.

He recently appeared as an expert witness in the movie The Ark and the Darkness. It's a movie about Noah's flood that just played in over 1 ,000 theaters countrywide. Last month, he announced in a press release that he had documented 150 instances of scientific fraud in the field of human evolution.

He uncovered fake fossils and fraudulent displays, which are currently on display at the biggest museums today. And with that, welcome Dr. Carl Werner to the show. How are you?

Good.

Thank you for the introduction, and thank you most for having me on your show and be able to talk to your followers. I'm trying to get this message out, so it's a great opportunity for me to reach others through your ministry.

So thank you.

Terrific. Dr. Carl, I'm so excited to get into this talk and see what it's about. So when I usually have a first-time visitor to the show, my question is, how did you come to Christ? And obviously, in the introduction, I did say it was through the scientific method.

So could you walk us through that?

Yeah.

I appreciate the opportunity because I, as you said, came in the back door to the church, and I wish I could tell you that I grew up in a Bible-believing church that emphasized the truthfulness of the scriptures.

I did not. I wish I had. And I wish I could say that I believed in the Bible first, and then I hung all my science on the Bible. I just, it's not what happened to me. This is what happened. I grew up in a Christian home.

It was a wonderful home, and I had amazing good parents. But no one emphasized the inerrancy of the Bible, and no one really talked about evolution versus creation. And you might say I was vulnerable as I moved off to medical school.

Actually, I started to fade away from God around age 14, 15, and just like, why am I following all these rules of my parents? I couldn't see it. I didn't have this great faith, and I didn't have this, you know, I couldn't explain God just really solidly, you know.

And so by the time I got to medical school, my professors on day one started talking about evolution, that it was true. They did give me false evidences. I wish now that I could have clarified those with them, but they were disproven evidences.

And I believed evolution. And really, Anthony, my life went into a slide. It went into a free fall at that point. You know, I was falling away from God long before that, but you know, now it just, I became just honestly miserable.

The more freedom I had away from God, the more miserable I came. And it was when I was a second year in medical school, and I was also the second year of college because I was going to this simultaneous school where you do college and medical school at the same time.

I was 19 years old, and a classmate of mine in medical school asked me out for pizza. And it was just pizza on a Sunday night at Minsky's Pizza Parlor on Main Street in Kansas.

City.

There was nothing to it. So I thought, but it may have been my appointment with God. And he asked me three questions that were science-based that I could not answer. And I was embarrassed, and I felt like I'd been pinned to the mat in a wrestling match.

Now, just for your information, I was there on a full ride science scholarship. That's unusual to have a science scholarship. And in high school, I had done two years of research at the university. I had my own animal lab.

I had been doing experiments on food preservatives. I was Mr. Science Geek kind of boy. And he asked me these three questions, and they basically caused my life to do a 180. Not overnight. It took me six months to process this.

But his three question was, Carl, you believe in the universe forming naturally, right? I said, yes. And he said, well, how would the Big Bang create matter, since you know, and I did at this time, that the law of thermodynamics, the first law says that matter, like carbon and helium and hydrogen, matter does not form from nothing.

So how could the universe form naturally if matter doesn't form from nothing? And yeah, it was silence. I just sat there. I had never thought of that. I never thought of that physics law with the origin of the universe, with my belief in God, I never put those three together in a sentence.

And I just sat there dumbfounded. And then his second question, and these three questions lasted about two and a half minutes. But they changed my life. His next question was, and you might not appreciate these questions.

No, I do. I love these questions.

Yes.

I appreciate these questions, because like, this was a semester that I was in biochemistry. And his second question was, Carl, you believe that life forms spontaneously through an evolutionary process in a primordial soup.

In other words, before this time, there was only nonliving things on the earth, like chemicals and rocks and things like that, water, you know, air, but no, nothing living like a bacteria. But then in this primordial soup, the chemicals reacted and life formed.

I said, yes. He says, you know, as well as I do, Carl, that the macromolecules, macro meaning the big molecules, meaning DNA, RNA, proteins, enzymes, the necessary products for life, never, ever form naturally.

In other words, you could take a beaker and put chemicals into a beaker and mix them around as much as you want, heat it, boil it, acidify it, alkalinize it, whatever, you put lightning in it, electricity, whatever you want, you will never form DNA, RNA, proteins, enzymes.

And so how could life form if the macromolecules don't form naturally?

Heavy question.

And it was silence. I'm making the point of the silence here. It was silence on my side of the pizza. I'm pretending like I don't really care. And this is just, oh, yeah, fine. That's a good question.

But inside, I am like, really?

Okay.

Then his third question is, Carl, you believe in evolution, that a bacteria changed eventually into hippopotamus, that the same bacteria changed into a palm tree, the same bacteria changed into a broccoli plant, and the same bacteria change into a monkey, ape and a man, right?

He said, the museums right now are full of fossils. And the number today, I'll update the conversation, is that the museums have 1 billion fossils. Not a million, a billion. There's 1 ,000 museums that have approximately a million fossils.

And I documented that in my first book. He said, okay, so you got these billion fossils, a tremendous fossil record, you have multiple copies of the dinosaurs, you have multiple copies of the bats, you have multiple, you know, like 1 ,000 fossil bats, 1 ,000 fossil, 100 ,000 fossil dinosaurs was the number, 500 ,000.

Fish.

Why don't you see the formation of these groups, the formation of fish, the formation of dinosaurs, the formation of corals, they all suddenly appear. How is it possible that you don't find the transitional forms in the rock layer, the in-between animals, for example, the bacteria changing into a coral?

Why does a coral just suddenly appear? You would think with that rich of fossil record, that just odds are you would have all the transitions for all the animals, but there's basically none. And it was silence again, the silence was deafening.

It was like one of those movies where all the sound in the background just kind of gets turned down, you know? I can barely hear the music and the pizza parlor sounds, and I'm saying, oh, crud. And I asked myself, have I been duped into believing naturalism?

It had never occurred to me that I've been duped. And at that point, and over the next six months, I said to myself, okay, that's enough for me, because these are laws, that's enough for me to say that God exists, but I don't get it, because what do I do with all the evolution stuff?

You know, I've been told that there's eight men. I've been told that the time of the dinosaur is different than today. I've been told that the rock layer show millions of years. I've been told this and this and this.

I have no idea how to put these two separate ideas together, but something is definitely wrong here. And I'm going to try to figure it out. Well, I was single at that time, and 18 years, the following 18 years, I just read books on evolution, creation, geology, and things like that.

And I was very unsatisfied, Anthony. I just, like, my basic questions were not getting answered. And I was like, I don't know, something's wrong. So in the interim, I got married to my wonderful, wonderful wife, Debbie Werner.

She's a Proverbs 31 woman. And I told her, you know, I'm very unsatisfied, and I'm thinking about, you know, maybe writing a book or maybe making a television show while I go to investigate this. And she said, well, let's go, you know, and I was like, okay, I didn't expect that to be a response.

But it was initially the deal was it would be a year or two. We do it on or off times, you know, because as an emergency room physician, I was granted large swaths of time, I could get off two weeks at a time every six weeks, you know.

And so we just started traveling. Our first trip was we went out to the dinosaur dig sites. And we just started asking questions, trying to get the answer to all my questions. And that was 1997. And it lasted 27 years.

Wow.

Yeah.

So I'm filming this documentary for national television, which my documentary has reached national television. I'm filming it and writing the books. And they're starting to get broadcast. But nobody really realizes while I'm filming the evolution scientists that I'm questioning.

Evolution.

It was just honest questions. And I just was honestly trying to get to the bottom of it. And I'd go into these interviews, just, you know, not with a lot of ammo in my pocket. I'm really just want to know the facts.

What's the facts of this dig site. And as I slowly accumulated information, I realized that the entire theory of evolution has collapsed. I know that sounds so, you know, over the top. But I would like to show you why.

And then the whole point of today's interview that I asked you if you would interview me was that during these 27 years, we had interviewed 43 human evolution scientists. And during the course of these 27 years of filming all over the world in the biggest dig sites, the biggest museums, the biggest universities of the world.

There were 150 frauds. In the field of human evolution. Now, fraud, Anthony, is a very strong word, you know, I would not use the word fraud unless I had a lot of proof for that, because it's a libelous term.

You know, if I say you're, you know, your your work is fraudulent, you know, that's libelous, unless it's true, you know, right. And fraud, the word fraud, if you look it up, it means the purposeful and knowingly misleading the person you're talking to.

And that would in human evolution, that would be by a scientist altering a fossil. We recorded a lot of those. It would be a scientist knowingly altering a diagram to where it wasn't true. But he knew it wasn't true, but he published it anyway.

It would be reporting facts that he knew or could be documented. Those are lies. And that's a very high bar. You know, it would be very hard to catch a scientist in fraud. And yet I have 150 of these that I'm going to share with some of some of them with you.

And I'm telling you to your audience, you need to watch this video because in a few minutes, I'm going to start showing them to you, the fossils, how they were altered, the pictures before and after. And this is the most incredible story you will ever hear.

And this is actually, again, I sound like I'm, you know, a flim flam man, you know, overstating my case, you know, buy my snake oil. But no, I'm serious. This is the biggest science story, maybe for 20, 30, 50 years, that there's widespread evolution fraud in the field of human evolution, and that I've documented it.

And here is the evidence. And the evidence is not only the fossils that were altered, the diagrams that were altered, but it was also the colleagues of the scientists accusing their evolution scientist friends of fraud on camera.

Wow.

So, you know, we got multiples, and we got some deathbed like confessions, you know, the last thing they told us.

Really?

Yeah.

So it goes on and on and on. In fact, the problem I have is, you know, how do I make this palatable for your audience and for you, that I don't sound like a drone, you know, just going on and on. Okay, and here's fraud number 142, you know, and so and so I've now I did that for the first few times on our Zoom meetings that I decided I had to tell the personal story, which I just did, and tell the background.

So you realize why this is plausible, and why this is how it could have possibly occurred. And by the way, I did this on my own dime and time. There's no church behind me. There's no organization behind me.

This is my gift, or Debbie and my gift to you and the community. And it's not a get rich quick scream it what it is, it's a get poor quick scheme. You know, if you want to, if you want to, if you really want to lose a lot of money, get a film crew and go around the world and travel 300 ,000 miles.

That's how to get poor quickly, you know, and then sell a book and make four bucks, you know, you can never it'll never pay for itself. So I don't if there's some doubting Thomas is out there. Please don't think I'm doing this for money.

Actually, I don't need any money. I mean, if you want to give me a million dollars, I'll take it. But, you know, I don't need any money. God has provided all the money, and I don't know how it's ever happened.

I still marvel. How did this happen? How did I pay for this? You know, and, you know, we're debt free. Everything's paid for, you know, so it's a gift to it's a gift to the believers. And this is actually a watershed moment for Christianity, because now it's finished.

The theory of evolution has been hanging on to this human evolution. Hey, we got all this evidence. I know that we don't know how dinosaurs came about and we don't know how bats came about, but we got all these ape men.

And so, no, it's over. And this is a time for everyone to get up off their chairs right now and dance around the room with their hands up in the air. You know, this is a hallelujah moment. This is a joyous moment.

And this is the devil is defeated moment. And this is the theory is evolution is over moment. So now I'm going to go to my slides now and just do this on for slides. And if I forget to hit the right button, please bring me back to reality here.

So this is the first book I released, and it was about the fossil record. It's called Evolution, the Grand Experiment. And basically, we went and interviewed scientists about their animal specialty like this was dinosaurs.

And this chart was from the Chicago Field Museum. And the Field Museum had these diagram how dinosaurs evolved with a bunch of lines splitting, splitting and finally getting to the dinosaurs. But when we asked the experts, David Weishample, who is the guru of dinosaur evolution, he gave us these numbers for the number of dinosaurs that had been found, large numbers of like 78 Tyrannosaurus fossils, dinosaur fossils, not fossils, but different specimens, like different dinosaurs and, excuse me, Ceratopsians, you know, I don't know, 377 Ceratopsians.

But according to them, there were no ancestors to any dinosaur. They just suddenly appeared. Then I made my second book. And by the way, all these books and all these shows are being filmed simultaneously over these 27 years.

It just took a while, you know, this was Living Fossils. I made a prediction that if creation was true, okay, evolution doesn't look like it happened in the fossil record, but I said, but if creation was true, there should be a prediction predicted what you should find.

And imagine this, if there was creation in six days, and then there was a flood, you know, 1 ,000 or 2 ,000 years ago, or whatever the number is. And then it was like the flood mixed up everything that was alive on the planet, kind of like one of those snow globes your grandma had on her desk.

So if you just took all the animals that were created at once, and that, according to the Bible, that would be the dinosaurs, that would be the humans, that would be the birds, that would be the lizards, everything that's living today, plus everything that's ever lived, they would all be at the same time alive, more or less, at the time of the flood.

Then it would be shake the snow globe, and everything should be mixed up together. So my prediction was that if creation was true, and if there was a flood, we should find modern animals next to the dinosaurs.

Do you follow that logic?

Sure, yeah, that makes sense, absolutely.

Yeah, and this is why it took so long. We interviewed time after time after time, dinosaur dig site, dinosaur dig site, dinosaur dig site, asking the paleontologists at the dinosaur site, did you find any modern animals next to the dinosaurs?

Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And I was like, okay, well, maybe creation isn't true. But then I thought about it, and I thought, maybe I'm asking the question wrong. And then I would say, can we photograph every fossil that you found next to the dinosaurs?

And they would say, sure, they're in this museum next to the dig site, or this museum 40 miles away. Most of the fossils from each dig site are in the closest museum. So we could photograph them all. And then I realized, a lot of these look like modern animals, but they're all renamed.

And then when I started asking them, have you ever found an animal or plant in your dinosaur dig site that looked kind of like a modern plant or animal? Oh, yeah, we got lots of those. What was going on is they were renaming them.

And so this was very dark, because they were renaming like, for example, this fossil was found at a dinosaur dig site. It looks just like the modern Redwood plant, if you can see that on screen. Can you see that on screen?

Yes, I do.

The plant looks just like the fossil. And this one, this fossil was found next to a dinosaur. So that would mean that the Redwoods were alive during the dinosaurs. And once we figured this out, that they were renaming them, see, they changed the species and genus names most often of these plants.

Look at the cone here from the Redwood. That's a modern cone. And here's a fossil. It looks like it's a Redwood cone, but it's found next to a dinosaur. And it went on and on and on. Like, if you look at this, this is a modern Nautilus shellfish.

And then here's a fossil Nautilus that was found next to the dinosaur. It looks the same, but they changed the species and genus name from Nautilus to Cynoceros. And then if you go to a different one, if you cut the Nautilus in half and look inside and then take a different dinosaur Nautilus fossil and cut it in half, you can tell the doesn't have the pictures in front of him.

Do these two look exactly the same, Anthony?

They look identical to me. That's amazing.

Identical. And this is when I finally saw these two, I said, no, I'm not just stupid that I can't see why they're renaming this. They are just changing the name. I'm serious. And like, if you look at the genus names, they change it from Nautilus to Cynoceros.

And what they did is they changed the genus and species name to create the illusion of evolution. And I don't know if you're aware, but they found ducks next to dinosaurs, loons, they found iguanas, boa constrictors, possums, you know, snakes, lizards, et cetera, et cetera.

But the way they have got away with this is that at the dinosaur museum or at the Natural History Museum, they never display the duck next to the dinosaur. Have you ever been to a museum and seen a duck sitting on the back of a T-Rex?

No.

But it should be there. If they found one, it should be there. Have you ever been to a museum and seen a boa constrictor wrapped around the bottom leg of a T-Rex?

No.

No.

Have you ever been to a Natural History Museum, seen a T-Rex or a Triceratops with a box turtle, you know, your little box turtle you find in the woods, next on the ground or an iguana or a possum? See, they have created the illusion of evolution.

And it's very dark that they did this and they do this. They should have all corrected this when my book came out called Living Fossils. And by the way, there's an amazing video that goes along with it showing me diving on the it's not amazing because I'm in it, but it's an amazing video because we're diving on the Great Barrier Reef and I'm swimming with these fish and picking up corals that look just like the fossils at the Carnegie.

It's an amazing video. And I would encourage you to watch all the videos that go along with the book. But that's enough of that. Then I started after those were done, I started my book, Human Evolution Books.

This book is volume three of the series and it's called Untold Stories of Human Evolution. It just came out. And basically, this covers the five apemen that were made out of ordinary mammals. And so these apemen, they would like you just to not even ask about because like this one, the Libyan hominid was made out of a dolphin rib.

Yes, you heard that correctly. A dolphin rib was misinterpreted as a collarbone of an apeman. And it wasn't just any apeman. This was an upright walking apeman. And this was in the American Museum of Natural History's magazine called Natural History.

And this one, Orcyman, was made out of a pig, I mean, out of a donkey skull. And this one called Australopithecus prometheus, it was made out of a cat like a leopard, a dog like family, like a canid, like a wolf kind of or jackal.

It was made out of the toe bones of horses that they thought were the collarbones of this apeman. And then there's the Nebraska man was made out of a pig too. So the first book was just the 40 scientists, 43 scientists that promoted apeman that were actually made out of mammals, like boar named mammals, like non primate mammals, like how stupid could you be kind of a thing?

Quick question, Dr. Carl, if I could. So did you actually get a chance to inspect the dolphin's rib? Like, how did you come to know that it was a dolphin rib?

Well, we, some of these are dicey and some of them are not. This dolphin rib was dicey because we interviewed the scientist who made the mistake. But they're not keen on making these fossils available.

But this story came out because this dolphin rib story came out because the scientist, his name is Dr. Noel Boas. He was from, I think, one of the New York City universities. He was a professor there.

He crossed swords with Dr. Johansson. And he said, my apeman is better than your apeman. You know, the scientists who found Lucy and Johansson and his friend, Dr. Tim White, got mad at him and say, we're going to burn you and we're going to take down your apeman.

You're saying Lucy's not a good apeman. Well, we're going to look at your apeman, the Libyan hominid. And this, I think, came out in 1983 or something. And they were the scientists, his colleagues, in other words, identified that it was a dolphin rib and they did it in the journal articles.

But it's a story. You don't have to see the fossil because the evolution scientist is making the case in their journal articles. And it is spectacular that you could mistake a dolphin rib, which is C-shaped, as a collarbone, which is S-shaped.

And if you go through my book, you'll see how they did that. And it's pretty fantastic. But the bigger point is that these 43 scientists had university professorships. They found museums. They wrote hundreds of books.

And yet they couldn't even identify the correct group of mammals. Should only be primates. OK, so then I wrote my fourth. And basically last book. And again, this book was just released and it's called Nine Categories of Overturned Apemen.

I'm sorry I haven't got to the fraud yet, but there's a reason for this. You've got to understand the story.

Oh, this is fun.

Yeah, this is this is this story that I'm gonna tell you now is How Dumb is Dr. Carl Warner? This is this is a story entitled How Dumb is Dr. Warner? And I'll tell you what it is, is that I got to the end of my writing these two books.

This book is called Nine Categories of Overturned Apemen. And basically, I said, I want to look at the overturned apemen, not just the ones made out of mammals, but the others. And there's been 232 apemen species that have been identified and then overturned.

And that's a lot of apemen. And I was like, what were they? What did they turn out to be? And they were so many of these things. I had to group them just to kind of make sense of it. And so I basically grouped the 232 apemen species that had been overturned into nine different categories.

Like one category, they turned out to be just monkey bones. Those were Dr. Dart's and Dr. Gebert's apemen. One category turned out to be just ordinary ape bones, not modern apes, but extinct apes. But they were just ordinary apes that they were interpreted as apemen.

One group was ordinary, recently buried human bones. You know, like Aunt Jane, who died 15 years ago, and Uncle Billy, who died 40 years ago, and Great Grandma Smith. You know, these people were buried.

And then evolution scientists came upon their fossils and named them as apemen. And this would be the Homo capensis in South Africa. This would be Homo cinnamento, Homo capen clonatus, Homo pampeus. And in Argentina, there was five of these.

And then another group was apemen that were made out of reptiles. It was only one of those. It was a crocodile bone. Another one was apemen made out of humans that were buried during the Ice Age with the reindeer and muskox and things like that in Europe.

But they were just humans. But they were buried with Ice Age animals. And they're not apemen. They're just humans. And so anyway, I went through that. And I got done. I've been now. I'm done. I'm 27 years of this.

I'm writing these books. I'm done. And there have been delay after delay after delay. And then finally, as I'm writing the back cover, and that's why I'm showing the back cover, I said, what should I put on the back cover to kind of summarize this?

And I wrote this sentence. I'm just going to paraphrase what I wrote at the time. I said during the course of these 43 interviews or whatever the number is with the evolution scientists, there were many instances of fraud that were revealed by the scientists or that became apparent during our 27 years of filming.

Because we also got to get into the museums and film the original fossils in the museum vaults. Because we were filming for a national broadcast on human evolution. That's how we got access. And so I said, but I said, when I finished that sentence in my mind, I said, that's a very weak sentence to put on the back of a book.

There were several instances of fraud. And this is to show you how dumb I am. I've been at this for 20, at this point, 25 years, 24 years. And I'm thinking myself, you need to count up how many frauds you were, you interviewed about and you saw.

And so I started adding them up. It was like, OK, I just won by him. It was five by that scientist. There was three by that scientist. American Museum had two. And I started counting them and counting them and counting them and writing down.

And I was like, this is how you tell, by the way, Anthony, that this is you found something when it jumps off the page at you and slaps you in the face. He's like, you dummy. Haven't you noticed this?

All these, all this pattern of evidence. And the pattern of evidence is that there's 150 frauds in this field. And that is the story. And I missed it. So after finishing the two books on just general human evolution, I thought I got to now make add four more shows to the miniseries in our evolution, the grand experiment miniseries.

And I need to do four more shows and just enumerating these 150 frauds. So show, I'm going to say I might get the numbers wrong, but you'll get the idea. Show five was. Human evolution frauds committed by scientists working in in America are the Americas.

And it takes 50 minutes to go through them. And the six, the six, the six episode is human evolution fraud carried out by scientists working in Africa. That would be like the frauds by Leakey, Robert Broom, Raymond Dart, et cetera, et cetera.

Again, it takes nearly an hour of video. The next show is human evolution frauds carried out by scientists working in Europe, Europe. And, you know, there they are in Spain and France and another one in France and Belgium, et cetera, et cetera, built down.

And then the last one is the fossil to my which I'm going to discuss here as my first eight man example fraud. So it's like I missed the whole point of this story. And this is kind of a God thing. It's like you you're going to work and I'm going to give you the real answer at the end.

Here.

And it had to be at the end because I had to get all these facts in order. I had to have all the pictures in order, had to have all the stories. Once I had them all, I'm like, I am ready to go, folks.

And this is a time of great joy. And I would like to after you take a breath here and see if you have a question. Otherwise, I want to start showing you now these crazy, blatant, repetitive frauds by the evolution scientists.

And this is going to be a piece of art. That's all I can say.

Yeah, sure. So one quick question I have and then we can go right into it because I'm real curious to see them myself. Have you spoken to any of the scientists who have perpetrated these frauds and questioned.

Them?

And have any said, yeah, you know, I regret doing it or are they just all in denial?

It's it's it's a mixed bag because some of the accusations of the fossils that are on display currently, those scientists are dead. They were accused by the scientists that are living today. Kind of a look back.

And that is also another pattern that the evolution scientists tend not to pronounce that their colleagues are doing the frauds until after they die. Once they die and they lose all their political capital to do retribution on them, their colleagues then come out and say, hey, that was a fraud.

That was wrong. This is wrong. But they never tell you while we're being spoon fed this crud on Discovery Channel. So I had a couple scientists, Richard Leakey, give a kind of a near. It was he he told me something spectacular just two months before he died.

And then Yves Copin, the Lucy co-director, he told me something spectacular before he died. And then we had another one, Dr. Raymond Dart, told his colleague who told us on camera what he said, a kind of a near death confession right before he died.

And so, no, this is not me confronting the scientists that did it. It's me talking to the scientists who are their colleagues and them calling them out on the frauds. Yeah, sure. You ready to go?

Yeah, absolutely.

This is going to be very fun. The first one is on display currently. At all the natural history museums like American Museum in New York would have this museum in Paris, a national museum there, Natural History Museum in London, Argentina, et cetera,.

Et cetera.

This is called and you never have heard of it because it's not like Lucy, not well known among the creation community yet, but it is their big one. It's like the great one. It's called TUMAI, T-O-U-M-A-I, TUMAI, Tumai, as you can see, was on the cover of Time Magazine in 2002 and Nature, indicating this is the big kahuna that we've been waiting for, the earliest upright walking ape man.

But the scientist that's promoting it infuriated his colleague who actually was there when it was found. And the colleague, Dr. Alan Bouvalan, told me the correct story and showed me that this was fraud.

This thing is fraud times four. Okay, so here's the fossil and I just now I want you to pay attention to his four main points that he either told us or wrote in the journal articles are mostly both. Here's his four points.