January 11, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

News of a Presbyterian Minister Dying Mid-Sermon

And good morning, good afternoon, whatever it is, I'm not really perfectly certain myself it it's one of those weeks I'm teaching a jan turn class and it's it's like teaching a class during the summer at Golden Gate.

And it's it's just when you teach that many hours in a row. Eventually your mind just sort of starts wandering off. I'm gonna get to beat everybody to the punch today. Because this is going to be a sermon illustration all over the planet next week.

Especially the United States and so I get to beat everybody to the punch and you get to ruin everybody's sermon illustration without the bat. It's the big news this morning it's hitting some of the Christian blogs and it was sent out this morning by a few folks.

Presbyterian minister collapsed and died in mid-sentence of a sermon. After saying and when I go to heaven his colleagues said Monday the Reverend Jack Arnold 69 was nearing the end of his sermon Sunday at Covenant Presbyterian Church in An Orlando suburb when he grabbed the podium before falling to the floor said the Reverend Michael s beats.

Associate pastor at Covenant Presbyterian. Before collapsing Arnold quoted the 18th century Bible scholar John Wesley who said until my work on this earth is done I am immortal, but when my work for Christ is done.

I go to be with Jesus beats said in a telephone interview. Maybe it was a Presbyterian quoting Wesley that caused such a massive conflict. That's that's a possibility there, but Several members of the congregation with medical backgrounds tried to revive the minister and paramedics recalled that Arnold appeared to die.

Instantly beats said Arnold had been the senior minister of the church until late 1990s when he began traveling to Africa in the Middle East to teach pastors. The cause of death was believed to be cardiac arrest.

He had bypass surgery five years ago. Beats also recounted Arnold's death in an email. He sent members of the Central Florida Presbytery. We were stunned beat said it was traumatic. But how wonderful was he died in his own church among the people he loved the most.

Well, I'll tell you one thing you know I Certainly disagree a lot of Wesley's theology, but he was right there until my work on this earth is done I am immortal, but when my work for Christ is done. I go to be with Jesus very very true.

However, it requires a theology somewhat inconsistent with his own Wesley said is to believe that but it fits perfectly with a good Presbyterian so. That's the way to go you know what when you think about it I've I've thought of that a number of times as I've as I've watched very elderly men become very Excited in the proclamation of the word.

I've I've thought I wonder how many times that's when people go and What would we do you know how would we respond to that, but I think that's a good good response I mean better than a car accident or in a Hospital someplace or something you know Proclaiming the word and especially if this is accurate, and I've seen it in two different sources now.

They may be quoting the same source, but I don't think they were. Hey, that's that that's the way to go if you spent your life to it. Why not that's the way to go. So I've ruined many many sermon illustrations.

Because you know the best element of a good sermon illustration is that it hasn't been heard before. But that's new to you that catches you by surprise you're you're listening and so on and so forth. But I am I ruin that for everybody so sorry about that.

But that's that that is the news that is going around eight seven seven uh-oh Seven five three three three four one. I say uh-oh because I'm gonna need to write that down here. Type it out eight seven seven seven five three.

Three-four-one because the the really cool neat sticker that I had on a Shelf is gone because the shelf is gone actually the shelf is sitting behind me, but I actually I hope that's the right number.

That's eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. I got okay I I put it in my really neat cool copy of edit pad light here, and we want Keep that keep that available eight seven seven seven five three three three four one getting a lot of response to the discussion of post-modernism and the emergent church stuff that's Exploding all over the place.

I was mentioning to Steve camp yesterday I was talking on the phone with him as I was driving home From teaching I was trying to go another way to see if it was any better. It was a little bit better, but it was like 38 miles.

It's just outrageous and we were talking about that stuff, and and he was talking about trying to get a dialogue a three-person on each side dialogue going and I I sort of mentioned. You know I said I frequently feel like I'm completely behind The times like I am I'm definitely you've never ever heard me claim that I am on the cutting edge of theology.

How you know I I look at people I could name some names I look at people who are on the cutting edge of theology. They see these movements coming long before I do. Long before I do and the reason is they Don't they are not the people who would ever ever ever in essence climb into the ring with Dave Armstrong or Robertson Janice or folks like that.

They just they would never do it and That's not they're calling in fact. There's lots and lots and lots of folks who never ever should You know get into that kind of thing and because there's not cut out for it.

There's just they don't have the The Constitution shall we say and But they can then be the ones that see these things coming. They're sort of visionaries. They see it coming and Then the slower folks like me can then pick up their warning and and spread it abroad a little bit wider.

And then get into the trenches with with and you know do do stuff that there I could do because they're gonna be moving on to the next thing you know and Let's just saw Gary embarrass himself and channel.

So anyway lots of positive comments all I'm doing really honestly so far is I Read a response to to Steve Camp's comments on McLaren and didn't I mention I think I had mentioned Last week that I had rashke's book here McLaren's book I had mentioned I read something as I recall about open Christianity.

And I don't know if they would necessarily want to and that's one of the problems here. You can't define this stuff. You just you cannot define this stuff as soon as you think someone has written something That you can sink your teeth into and Really talk about and and respond to as soon as you do it the response is well that's that's not really what I Am attempting to communicate because you know once you define theology as telling a story and and that wonderful nebulous term dialogue and and We want to avoid Metanarratives, but we want to share our stories the story can change as soon as you try to respond to it.

So it's it's really Especially for someone like myself look I'll tell you you know I'm not the brightest got brightest bulb in the in the in the universe and It's easier for me. I'll be perfectly honest with you This has been a one of my many many downfalls and shortcomings for a long long time.

It's like it's like Christian science, okay? I've never really done much with Christian science the the whole movement and the reason is I Have a hard time talking to someone who doesn't think I exist you know somebody who thinks that I am a myth that I am a Just a I'm not really here.

It's hard for me to talk to them all right. It's very difficult for me to invest a lot of time a lot of effort into talking to that individual. Because I want to walk up to that person pop them in the nose say did that hurt good now We have a place to start.

You know we've got we've got a grounding in reality now We can have a discussion on and so It's very very similar in talking to these these folks who are into post-modernism. Because you can't get them to define anything.

I do a whole lot better talking to a conservative Roman Catholic Who believes what they believe and they will define what they believe and they'll stick with what they believe and they actually they actually believe it.

Enough to defend it. Okay. I can respect that person and I can I can debate that person and that's a person I can defeat in debate very easily because that's what I'm gonna do it. Okay. But you know what when they?

When a person Presents their viewpoint and then I present a response and they come back with a new viewpoint I Not only I have it's a personal character flaw. I don't respect that. I don't see any reason to respect that I Don't it's just the way that I have been Raised in my life.

I don't respect Individuals who are constantly changing their viewpoints and changing their position. They won't stick to their guns and they don't really believe something strongly enough to say. Here's what I believe.

Here's why I believe it and I'm gonna defend it, you know, I just So dealing with this this post-modernism stuff is really I do not enjoy it because My meager skills are bringing a position a belief into the light of Scripture and These folks can say I Believe in inerrancy and then turn around say but I don't believe the scripture is clear enough to really give us any.

Well, you know what the big the big phrase now is if you haven't run into this stuff You're probably going what on earth you talking about the big thing now. This just makes me wanna The big thing now is We need to have epistemic Humility that doesn't that make you feel warm.

It makes me feel warm. It makes me feel very very warm. It makes me feel very Rodney King ish. Epistemic humility and The way that's presented is well what we've had in the past have been these people who have been very Arrogant about knowledge and how much we can truly know and we didn't really know a lot of things that we knew and we need to have epistemic or epistemological humility epistemic is shorter than that, but epistemological makes you sound smarter so epistemological humility To admit the limits of human knowledge well You know Vast majority of time I hear these folks talking about what allegedly I believe I don't recognize it because I've Always recognized that man is absolutely dependent upon God's revelation for true knowledge.

I've never believed that we have some Neutral ability to Examine the universe outside of God's revelation. I read Van Til, you know, okay I'm familiar with some of that stuff and and I I agree we are dependent upon revelation.

I don't I don't agree with Rome and in her her rationalism that point and all the rest that stuff. But a lot of these comments are aimed my direction anyways, or at least the direction my direction personally, but the direction of of what I believe and So I just I don't understand what this is all about.

But the whole idea is if if you dare to think and this is how I'm seeing it. Anyways, if you dare to think that God has given us his word with sufficient clarity to hold all men accountable to it. And if you think that God has given us his word with sufficient clarity that we can define the gospel.

So we can say this is and this isn't define the Trinity. This is and this isn't. Then somehow you are Epistemologically arrogant and Of course from my perspective. I'm saying no. You are questioning God's ability to communicate with the creatures.

He himself made God made us to be communicating creatures and he's he chose to communicate with us through the spoken word and the written word and So you're what you're really doing is you're questioning God's wisdom and God's ability to communicate in his word.

That's what I see. And so when I hear it was interesting I just I followed just a little bit didn't have a lot of time, you know got back fairly late from class and just a million things going on and and You know, I'm definitely feeling like I'm falling behind everything these days and and this is supposed to be the easy time.

So it's sort of making me feel like the rest this year once I start traveling and doing all the stuff I need to be doing again that I'm I'm just never getting anything done. But I Was following a thread just doing a little little research.

Reading up on what people are saying on various sundry things and there's a thread on People in the emergent movement who clearly are willing to allow for Conversation on key issues. And Have we been wrong to assume this the wrong to believe that and a number of them recognize.

And this is what was so seems so odd to me the importance of maintaining the doctrine of inerrancy in the midst of all this. And I You know, I feel for him in the sense that well, yeah, duh but how can you I Mean once you start reducing the proclamation of the word to sitting around and having and telling your story.

That's not the proclamation of the word once you once you go there how in how on earth can you even begin to defend something as as Concrete and objective as inerrancy. You just don't you've you've you've knocked the ladder out from underneath yourself at that point.

It's no wonder you're left hanging from the rafters when you when you pull a stunt like that. So anyway, I've just been Making a few comments. Just I've been quoting some stuff from a thing on summarizing McLaren's view on evangelism from a point counterpoint thing in Christianity today and and It's amazing the amount of response we've gotten from it and I have not forgotten about the other things.

I yes, I've started a A rejoinder a discussion with Eric Svensson on the Atonement just haven't finished it Want to get back to the discussion of the Islamic article. I've got four or five or six other things going on and that's aside from All the writing stuff that needs to be done as far as I've got a full-length article due to a journal in What I think nine days haven't even really started yet.

Know what? I want to say, but haven't started yet. And so there's there's where we are at the moment. So we're just just doing the best we can do eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Synod of Dort

I Received a sermon in the well not in the mail, but it was email MP3 version of a sermon by a Baptist pastor in Florida and I started listen. I listened to it over dinner. I know this is somewhat socially unacceptable, but hey, I was eating alone Had a Incredible desire for Mexican food recently which living in Phoenix is a good thing it's like, you know, it would be a really bad thing if you were if You had an insatiable desire for Mexican food and you lived on Long Island I Spent time on Long Island and there is no Mexican food.

It just doesn't doesn't exist and So I I loaded this sermon on to my super duper Really cool one gig mp3 player thing. I'm a Bobby jump drive thing and I went to dinner and So I'm sitting munching away on my my chips and salsa while I'm listening to the sermon and I thought as it started Finally We're gonna get some meaningful interaction here from someone who opposes Reform theology, but who is gonna be fair.

He's done that he's done the research Didn't quite turn out that way, but it sounded like it it sounded like it when it first started so I'm gonna play This sermon. I mean, it's it's a 48-minute sermon and we're already 40 minutes in 20 minutes in the program.

So obviously I could be able to do that, but Get started on anyways and I want to play the first part because I It's clear to me that this pastor And if I had the name right in front of me, I'd give it to you but I think is pastor Rivas, I think is the name and I I understand the motivation.

Okay, I understand the motivation He's concerned. This is different but what concerns me is he then goes through and Tries to establish. Look, I know what Calvinism is Here's what I've read and That then in my silly way of thinking means alright if you've read those things then you're going to have to Accurately represent those things, right?

You're gonna you're not going to make the common mistakes that people make right and It it didn't work out that way. So anyways, here's here's where he began discussing why he's discussing this issue It has come to my attention.

In recent days that some of our flock Have been exposed for the first time to a theological system called Calvinism and So I wanted to speak to that issue tonight To explain to you what that theological system is where I stand and what I believe.

I Want to say up front, I don't have any axe to grind and I have some friends many Who are what we would call five-point Calvinist and it's never been a test of fellowship. But I'm discovering that in this day in which we live there is a new breed of five-point Calvinist that has arisen That will not tolerate any dissent Will not tolerate any flexibility Will not tolerate any difference of opinion to make the doctrines of John Calvin a.

Test of fellowship. Now, let me just mention something just in passing. That sounds very harsh. Okay, that sounds really bad. But you know, I suppose he's he's talking about someone like myself and The reason I say that is we have a statement of faith.

We have a confession of faith and and we ask before someone joins the church if they have any Serious reservations about the statement of faith, and I think most everybody Would understand that if someone said yeah, I don't agree with what says about The Trinity that we would probably have a little bit of a difficulty in having this person as a member of the church.

But at the same time, I think if they said yeah I'm not really sure if I believe in this election stuff. We would probably have the same problem and we would want to talk with this person and want to seek to educate this person and Seek to to do that because we do feel that that's very very much important.

Very very important and Obviously, we don't what we're not saying that I don't have fellowship with a person who's not a five-point Calvinist but there's a difference between Fellowship outside the church and fellowship in the local body.

Especially when you're talking about someone being in a position any position of leadership member of the church Supportive of the church, etc. Two different contexts. They're not sure exactly which context he's talking about.

When I went to Moody Bible Institute Just out of high school in 1974 I Met my roommate there. He was from Dallas, Texas. He told me he was a five-point Calvinist. Well, I've never heard of such a thing in all my life.

I knew that my parents were Republicans. And so he began to explain to me the five points of Calvinism. He gave me all the literature. He gave me the books. For many years. I subscribed to banner truth magazine, which is a premier Calvinistic publication.

I read Ian Murray's the Forgotten Spurgeon. I Became familiar with Jonathan Edwards essay on the bondage of the will. I read the works of Arthur pink. Especially his little book which Calvinist prize on the sovereignty of God.

Became familiar with theologians like Louis Burkhoff. Became familiar with books by Hodge and others who espouse the doctrines of grace as The Calvinist called them. So I want you to understand that this is not new to me.

I Didn't just fall off the turnip truck or whatever. You call the thing you fall off to. And I want you to know if you're here tonight you become a man enamored with this truth. You're not the first person to ever consider these issues.

For two years I lived seven days a week 24 hours a day with a five-point Calvinist who was a wonderful Christian who did everything in his power to convince me to embrace the five points of Calvinism.

I read with great profit the two-volume autobiography of Charles Haddon Spurgeon the great Calvinistic Baptist published by banner of truth. I have in my library the commentaries of John Calvin from Genesis to the end of the Bible.

I Have in my library the two-volume biography of George Whitfield the great Calvinistic preacher. So what I'm trying to say is I don't have a phobia concerning Calvinism. I've read great prophet the two-volume biography by Ian Murray a great Calvinist of the great Calvinistic preacher Martin Lloyd-jones and consider Martin Lloyd-jones book on the Sermon on the Mount the greatest book ever written on the Sermon on the Mount.

He's a five-point Calvinist. Now what is a Calvinist? Well, who is John Calvin for crying out loud? John Calvin was born in 1509. John Calvin died in 1564. John Calvin was born and reared in France. He lived in the fires of the Great Protestant Reformation.

France was Roman Catholic. You have to understand that in those days Roman Catholicism. Not only Was a system of theology and was not only a religion. But it was the most potent political influence in that day.

Martin Luther shocked the Vatican and the Roman Catholic system when he declared that they were wrong in their theology of justification by works. We are not saved by works. But we are saved by faith.

They said that's heresy and they persecuted and killed people who preached salvation by grace through faith.

Of course a lot of our modern Roman Catholic apologists are screaming at this point at you know Council of Trent said you can't be saved by works and things like that. But yeah, that's not really the point here when John Calvin became drawn.

To the followers of Martin Luther in France and began to preach justification by faith. The Roman Authority sought to arrest him. But his friends warned him and he barely escaped arrest and death. He would eventually settle in Geneva, Switzerland Where he preached the gospel in his mid-twenties.

He began his monumental work called the Institute of the Christian religion there we go, which is one of the greatest Cyclopedias of theological thoughts and doctrine ever put together. He preached the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ with great power.

Was a Bible translator. But he died in 1564. In the days of John Calvin his followers were not called Calvinist. Now a generation Removed a generation after John Calvin There was a man named Jacobus Arminius.

Jacobus Arminius began to study the doctrines of Calvin and he got disturbed. John Calvin stressed predestination That in eternity past God Almighty Predetermined who was going to get saved. Jacobus Arminius said if you carry that line of thought to an extreme It removes all human responsibility from the equation of salvation.

Man becomes a robot and Ultimately God would be the author of evil and sin. Now one of the errors That Arminius espoused Was that you get saved by grace? But it is a cooperative effort between the free will of man and a holy God and you can decide that you don't want to be saved anymore and You can renounce your salvation.

The Arminian theology is predominant among the Wesleyan people the Methodist Church of the Nazarene. And the free will Baptist. A great controversy erupted in the Netherlands between the followers of Calvin and the followers of Arminius.

A Synod or Church Council was called called the Synod of Dort. To try to resolve the issue. Even Calvinist historians will tell you That the Synod was stacked in favor of the Calvinist. When the Synod made their decision they repudiated the teachings of Arminius with his overemphasis on free will and they upheld the teachings of John Calvin and his stress on the sovereignty of God.

My personal conviction is Arminius Overreacted to the teachings of John Calvin. Then the Synod of Dort Overreacted to the overreaction of Arminius. For out of the Synod of Dort now get this in your mind.

John Calvin dies in 1564. Arminius dies in 1610. The Council of Dort or the Synod of Dort meets in 1619 and from the Synod of Dort in 1619 decades after the death of John Calvin came the five points of Calvinism.

The first time I saw them articulated it was in a track someone gave me in Bible colleges called a tulip track. Because one way that Calvinists seek to evangelize the five points of Calvinist is Using that image of the tulip t-u-l-i-p those the five points of Calvinist.

This is what the five-point Calvinist would teach. T stands for total depravity. That man is lost and separated from God. We are totally depraved. We are dead in trespasses and sin and we cannot respond to God.

We are dead. Well, that's what the Bible teaches. I have no problem with that. You read the first three chapters of the book of Romans and you'll find the whole world in sin. And it specifically says that no man seeketh after God and if you read the second chapter of the book of Ephesians You'll see how lost we are without Christ.

We are aliens. We are dead in trespasses and sin and a dead man can't respond because he's dead. You look in the garden when man fell man didn't seek God. But God came into the garden and he said Adam, where art thou?

Totally depraved. U stands for Unconditional election. Now, this is what that means.

Unconditional Election and Reprobation

Let me stop right there because now we're gonna start getting into the end of the critique and criticism section. Mmm, I was tad bit Busy right before the program started. I've barely got a chance to get this queued up.

This is Herb Rivas North Jacksonville Baptist Church, I believe was the name. I was just looking at and It really to me. It doesn't matter who this is because this isn't personal. Sorry has nothing made probably fine, man Great great guy probably, you know, whatever.

It's not personal. This is just another example of Something that I think I can fairly say now after how many years of doing the dividing line and How many times how many different people now have we we've played them We've let them speak.

I Haven't just said well, I heard so-and-so say we've I've let how many minutes now we've done here 11 minutes of Letting him speak and he's gonna do some more and It's not just taking a little Section out.

It's not just taking a few words out. We play whole sections, you know, people say man You sure do let them just ramble on well, you know, you've got to you got to be fair you got to you know, cover the whole the whole spectrum and Over the years how many people we've listened to Charles Stanley and we've listened to Patterson and Paige Patterson and we've We've listened to so Many people and of course probably the biggest one That we've we've listened to Adrian Rogers.

I got lots and lots of response out of that and I have in fact a College Bible study thing and I need to check make sure it's not the same one We listened to before, you know people send stuff and sometimes it's older but that we're gonna get to we've given these folks Repeated opportunities Within their own context.

I mean, it's not like You know, I mean this is before their own people. Those are the That's the best way to know what someone really really believes is listen what they say in a comfortable surrounding Where you're talking to your own folks, right?

And what is the consistent? Result of that. But what have we seen over and over and over again, you know, everybody says well the other side misrepresents us the other side engages in In ad hominem argumentation and straw man argumentation.

Those are the favorite terms to throw around though most people don't really know what either one of them actually means but Both sides say that but in my experience only one side That's the one I hope I represent.

Has Al Mohler ever come out pro-con Calvinism. Yeah, just slightly. It's that's what he's known for is being a Calvinist. You know at least was back in the 1990s. Anyway one side is willing to let the other side speak define its terms and Then say here's the response.

Here's what we believe in response. Let's dialogue. Let's debate. Let's go the Word of God. Let's let's make sure that there's accurate representation. So the other side just doesn't do it. In fact as you listen to this entire sermon, there is an underlying current That evidently there are some Bible studies in the area that obviously pastor Rivas does not want his people attending and My understanding is he is opposed to the founders conference and the founders movements and and to Southern Baptist Church is embracing Calvinism openly now given the misrepresentations he makes of it sadly which again You know at least this time as I was listening and maybe it's because the sound of the chips as I was Munching, but I was listening a little bit more closely.

To the the say I'm familiar with Hodge I'm Familiar with Burkoff well being familiar with means you have their books in your library doesn't mean you've read them. It doesn't mean that you've you've actually sat down and said I want to understand what this person believes and why I?

Want to be able to see their? Context their language their drive, why do they say what they say that being familiar with and Knowing on that level two different things two different things. But if you're gonna stand before your people and say you know what I know this stuff I I lived the five-point Calvinist 24 -7 when I was at Moody Bible Institute in the 1970s.

Okay, then that means you're gonna be held to a little different standard should be held a different standard than someone who hasn't done that and so I Was hoping maybe you know you start off that way.

It's not as bad as many. It's certainly not a Dave Hunt presentation. You got it in a spectrum of things. It's better than some there's no two ways about it. But as we get into it we start seeing. That the primary objections are the same ones and they are not critically handled in a proper fashion and that's that's.

Unfortunate. The five-point Calvinist says in eternity past. Well no wait a minute. I'm gonna mention them you know one of the.

Troubling things is you I will listen to this individual speaking and Pastor Revis sorry it's again. I don't know him. I Just saw a picture of the first time somebody actually pulled up a URL and I clicked on it and oh, okay.

Looks like he's got a nice-looking family, and there you go. Pastor Revis said I have no problem with total depravity. Yes, actually you do. At least as far as being consistent in the application of it.

That's that's really. The issue is are you consistent with your your self-professed belief in The total. Probably man. Does that total probably mean total inability. Or does it simply mean that grace is absolutely necessary?

But not sufficient. There's there's that. There's that phrase once again. God.

Predestinated the word predestined in the Bible means to lay out boundaries beforehand. You find it in the book of 1st Peter. I believe it's the second verse. The word elect. It's found more than one time in the Bible.

The word elect means chosen. The word for ordination which is important to this issue means to know beforehand. It doesn't just mean God knows what's going to happen in the future. It means God knows and God actually controls What's going to happen in the future?

That's catch that you know. Hold him hold him hold him there because he's he's right in the sense that He's just went beyond. God merely knows the future to the reason he knows the future is because of the reality of his Sovereignty over events in time.

So gotta keep that one on the table. So predestinate means to lay out boundaries beforehand.

For ordination means to know what's going to happen before it happens. But to have sovereign control over it. And when we are called the elect it means we are the chosen of God. What is unconditional election the five-point Calvinist teaches?

In eternity past. God Predetermined who is going to get saved. He made a list before Mankind was ever created. Before Adam and Eve ever fell. In The Lamb's Book of Life. The elect. The saved. The unsaved.

The non elect. We're not written down in the Lamb's Book of Life. And God Predetermined that those people would get saved. John Calvin and Calvinist also teach. Five-point Calvinist. They don't like to talk about this.

But if you're going to embrace it, I want you to know what you're embracing.

Along this line of unconditional election, but now what about those of you who've listened? What's coming? I knew what was coming. Despite the sound of the chips. I I knew what was coming. We're about to get the idea of the equality of Of election and reprobation.

They're about to make the the equal sign even though Calvinists very clearly in our discussion of the issue of reprobation and the reprobate Calvinists make a clear distinction in the issue of grace the action of God the purpose of God the the extension of of God's power.

To to make his grace effective is not necessary to make a sinner be sinful. So he's here. Yeah here. It comes you can you can hear it coming, but you're not going to hear that kind of distinction. Presented to it because obviously we just heard.

Obviously pastor Eavis does not want his people involved with this and you know what that's his right as a pastor that church. He's gonna have to answer to God for that. He's got to answer God for the teaching the Word of God.

But and I'm not sitting here saying he does this man should not talk to his people about what he believes. I just think he should be a little bit wiser in listening to what they're saying.

That's there's a difference between the two. They believe in the doctrine of reprobation. The doctrine of reprobation says God Decreed that the elect would be saved and God Predetermined that the non-elect would go to hell as.

Centurion and channel just said that's the dark side of Calvinism as George Bryson puts it the concept of the passing over the Reprobation. And what does it mean that God actively reprobates. Does he need to actively reprobate?

Etc etc. In other words God not only.

Are you hearing what I'm hearing because I couldn't hear this on the mp3 player. But I can hear it now and I I can see this picture in my mind because I bet if I went to the website and if there's a picture of the of the worship center I Can see what this looks like?