October 6, 2020 Show with Jay Seegert on “Creation & Evolution: Compatible or in Conflict?”

The Program Opens and the Guest Is Introduced

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on the sixth day of October 2020.

And I am so delighted to have for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jay Siegert. He is the international speaker and author and keynote speaker and managing editor, managing director for the Starting Point Project.

He holds degrees in both physics and engineering technology from the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater and John Brown University, respectively. And he is also an ambassador and an on-the-board of directors for Logos Research Associates and a representative speaker for Radio Christy.

Today, we're going to be addressing the theme of his book, Creation and Evolution, Compatible or in Conflict? And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jay Siegert.

It's great to be on the program. I am definitely looking forward to it.

Great.

I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away. In the event that they have questions they'd like to ask,. Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Chrisarnsen at gmail .com,. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say you disagree with your pastor over something we'll be addressing today. Let's say that your pastor is an old earth creationist or something like that. Perhaps your pastor even believes in theistic evolution.

You'd rather not draw attention to your own identity. Or perhaps you're a pastor and your fellow elders disagree with you or vice versa on something we're addressing today, or your denomination is in disagreement with you.

And we understand that you'd like to remain anonymous if you are in a circumstance like that. But if you're just asking a general question, please ask, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

The Starting Point Project and Logos Research Associates

Well, even before I go to your summary of your salvation testimony, why don't you tell our listeners about the Starting Point Project?

Sure, the faith makes it really difficult to mentor their own children, and parents are so busy to begin with, they may not be spending as much time with their kids as they do from the faith in the church.

So within the church, try the Bible, how to defend it, how to mentor their own children. But then at the same time, we also offer a very gracious, how to address them very graciously rather than trying to win an argument with them.

So it's a ministry that I founded traveling around the country, but we've been in seven other countries as well. And I just, I feel like I'm just getting wound up, not even close to being burned out. I'm a little more excited and God is really blessing the ministry and it's becoming more and more effective reaching out regarding authority.

Great. Well, if anybody wants more details on the Starting Point Project, you can go to thestartingpointproject .com, thestartingpointproject .com. And if you could also let us know about Logos Research Associates, where you serve as an ambassador and a member of the board of directors.

Sure. A number of years ago, I attended informatics such as Yale University, did the gene gun, worldwide famous for that. Very, very godly man, really strong. Ended up going back to New York for time with him that I'd put a talk together.

I wanted to run by him.

He looked at it. He really, really liked it. He said, yeah, it's scientific. Some time with him, got to know him better. And then he invited me to come along one of the meetings they had for this Logos restarted, which Logos Research Associates is a consortium, the largest consortium of scientists and then the whole founded that group, invited me to one of their pray about it.

And I did. And I thought, God made me the bomb gardener, tectonic. When I travel around and speak, and I talk about my association with them, I die. Right now, they'd be the first. So I'm just honored to be on the board with you because they're doing some awesome research.

And then I get to put it in some really powerful talks.

Praise God. And if anybody wants to find out more about Logos Research Associates, go to LogosResearchAssociates .org, LogosResearchAssociates .org. And last but not least, tell us about Radio Christy, where you are a representative speaker.

At Ratio Christy, ideally student-led. You want them student-led and sponsored by a club or your navigator. But it's basically apologetics.

Great. If anybody wants to know more about Ratio Christy, you can go to their website, which is R-A-T-I-O-C-H-R-I-S-T-I .org, R-A-T-I-O-C-H-R-I-S-T-I .org. Well, now, as I alluded to earlier on, well, since you're a first-time guest on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, we do have a tradition here, when we have a first-time guest in the program, to have them give a summary of their salvation testimony, including an idea of what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstance our Sovereign Lord raised up in your life to draw you to Himself and save you.

Sure. Great. Looking back, non-denominational Bible Church. I just remember enjoying going to church, and not just because of my friends, but I enjoyed our Sunday school classes and the lessons from the Bible.

I even enjoyed the services, and we went every Sunday morning, every Sunday night, and every Wednesday. That's strange to me. I claimed the gospel, not taking drugs or stuff. Five years old, you know, university in Arkansas.

I studied engineering, but then I became more interested in physics, so I got an engineering technology degree there, but then I transferred from there in Arkansas back to Wisconsin, where I lived, to a state university to get a degree and then have a physics major, and that's when everything changed for me.

Going from a small Christian college where my engineering professors opened up every class in prayer to a large state in prayer, I did not know why. I could not defend my faith for the bigger part of my story than I had ever realized.

I went home, talked to someone at church, said, hey, my professors are challenging me. They're telling me I'm wrong, but I'd be in medical physics. We're bringing up him in his office. He'd walk away and tell about that lied to me.

I didn't want to disappoint them by walking away. I didn't want to walk away. If what they told me is mom and dad and inconsistencies at home and to live by, and they want to live a certain way, and the Bible's kind of against that, but they go off to college and professors give them all these academic reasons why the whole thing's not true anyway.

Don't worry about it. They're like, yeah, I knew it, and then they use all that as weapons against their parents and walk away. So of my background.

Why Creation and Evolution Are Presented as a Conflict

Great. Well, now I'd like to get into the subject at hand, the main subject at hand, creation and evolution compatible or in conflict. As you know, fully well, not only your publisher, Master Books, but the plethora, as it were, of young earth creationist ministries that exist, not to mention old earth creationist ministries that exist, but they have written and have brought to light many of the issues that are involved in the creation versus evolution divide.

Why is it that amongst the many books already in print on the issue of creation versus evolution, why did you feel a need for creation and evolution compatible or in conflict to be brought into print?

Full-time ministry. Just never felt that God was opening the door, so I had to be content with having a full-time job. I did, and then I got into computing for someone asked me to speak and get more speaking opportunities.

Now, there are many who profess to be Christian who believe that evolution is completely compatible with being a Bible-believing Christian or being a Christian in general. I was raised, before my coming to Christ, I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church and went to parochial schools.

The Catholic school that I actually went to for eight years as a kid, we were actually taught in our science class evolution and Darwinian evolution. And our science teacher actually had the audacity to tell the kids, don't listen to any of those fairy tales you may hear outside of this classroom.

He was a lay teacher, as they called him. He was not a nun or obviously, he was not a nun obviously, but he was not either a brother or a priest or anything like that. He was what they call a lay teacher.

And I'm not even sure how much of a professing Catholic he was, but he would tell us, don't listen to what you hear outside of this classroom about the fairy tales of Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark. These are all just stories.

They're made up. They're fictional. And he taught that we evolved from apes and so on. And we just sat there listening in fascination. And unfortunately, many of those kids likely grew up through adulthood, still embracing those lies.

And I can even remember vividly my sister coming home from college. She went to a Roman Catholic college that was at the time an all girls college on Long Island. And I remember her telling my parents, hey, did you know that Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, all of that is made up fairy tales.

They're just tools in the Bible to teach us some kind of allegorical truth, but they never really happened and that kind of thing. And of course, even beyond the Catholic Church, and by the way, I don't want to broad brush either.

As you know, there are traditionalist Catholics, and they're probably a tiny minority of Catholics who are young earth, literal six day creationists, who find abhorrent Darwinian evolution just as much as we do.

But I have found in my dialogues over the years with Roman Catholics, even many amongst the so-called conservative Catholic Church, uh, even many conservatives have bought into the idea that evolution is an acceptable theory.

But, uh, tell us, uh, and of course it goes beyond the Catholic Church. There are said to say, even in my own camp of reform theology, you have some who actually believe in theistic evolution. And, uh, we know that, uh, one of the most well-known globally renowned Presbyterians in the United States, Tim Keller is a strong supporter of biologos.

And perhaps you could tell us what that means, but do you really believe that these folks who profess to be Christian are on solid ground saying that these ideas are compatible with the Christian faith?

Some might say they don't interfere with the gospel, et cetera.

Science, Presuppositions, and the Authority of Scripture

Talking about it and the word of God really live that way. They kind of don't think anyone on the planet should care what I think. I created this universe bringing up and talk about that, but that when you're reading, it just screams at you.

God used a big hundreds of millions of years in mind when you're reading. So they even had writing and they weren't used that they could kind of relate to, but he never meant them to be of that. I really meant a million years ago and then life forms from chemicals.

And then, you know, mankind evolved from an ape-like creature over the last 6 million years. And, you know, they'll finally understand that's what I act. I could go on and describe all that. So why didn't God just simply say that in simple terms?

Why did he tell Oracle account is Hebrew history in the Bible? But the point I make with people is what is it in God's word?

In fact, let's go to your second point, right after the first station break that we have to go to now. And if anybody wants to join us for the question of your own, again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with more of Jay Siegert.

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Observational Science, Historical Claims, and the Created Order

Welcome back. This is Chris Armisen, your host of Iron Truck and Zion Radio, and our guest today, if you just tuned in, is Jay Siegert. He holds degrees in both physics and engineering, technology from the University of Wisconsin, Whitewater, and John Brown University, respectively.

He's an international speaker and author, keynote speaker and managing director for the Starting Point Project, an ambassador and board of directors member for Logos Research Associates, and a representative speaker for Ratio Christi, and we are addressing today his book, Creation and Evolution, Compatible or in Conflict.

Our email address, if you'd like to join us with a question of your own, is ChrisArmisen at gmail .com, ChrisArmisen at gmail .com. And as you were saying before the break, whenever someone brings to you a statement or a question that involves in their minds a conflict between what science has proven to be factual and what Christians are teaching, largely using the scriptures as their source, you have asked them how they, as a professing Christian, have used the Bible to discover or prove what they are committed to.

You want to reword that or recap that in your own words, and then move on to your second point.

Why really deeply study the Hebrew or the Greek of an allegory if you don't even delve into it? So that's the biggest thing is the vast majority of people that I run into who have this kind of a compromised position have not arrived there through good enough for them.

They're all about the science, but most can't even do that.

Well, that really leads me to another question. There aren't a lot of scientists really not using science at all. They are unconsciously really preaching the gospel in quotes of another religion, a religion they call science that is not really scientific at all.

They're really expecting you to believe what they are telling you just because they and their colleagues in the upper echelon of the hierarchy of academia and in the halls of science tell you these things are true, and it's really a matter of faith.

It's a matter of keeping up and perpetuating the tradition that scientists have taught for quite a long time. I'm not even saying they're consciously doing that necessarily, but isn't that in essence very often what they are doing?

They're not even really teaching science, because isn't science something that you have to prove through repeated experiments resulting in the same outcome and that kind of thing?

They've never heard anything like that, so they've only heard one thing, and it seems to make sense to them on the surface. When we say the word science, we want it to be, and it's different than what we typically do in a lab, we're not debating operations.

That's right.

That's when you're in a laboratory, and we can't test it involving a Big Bang and all that, or a six of different guesses and assumptions as to what they believe. They can actually see, and by looking at the results, they're making guesses as to what might have happened a long time ago.

The piece of evidence that they do look at today themselves presuppositions your starting point, but more know than what they believe to begin with. So if you are kind of skewed towards, well, they've proven the Big Bang, and I guess they have all this evidence for evolution, as you look at new facts, you're going to interpret them in the light of what you think is already true.

I know evolution is true. I know the Big Bang happened, so therefore, these facts I'm looking at now, I've got to include my current views. I'm going to very often have to jump through a lot of hoops and twist things and come up with some really strange explanations, where the other side, very consistently, these things seem to have a very natural sense in well with Scripture.

I have an entire talk that I call Surprise.

The Role of Presuppositions in Interpreting Evidence

In fact, we have to go to our midway break right now, and I'd like you to pick up on that where you left off. We have to go to the longer break in the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because the SEC requires of them to localize Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio and all their programming to Lake City, Florida, and they do so by airing their own public service announcements and other local things, while we air our own globally heard commercials.

So, please use this time wisely. While this longer break is being conducted, write down as much of the information provided by as many of our advertisers as possible, so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, which will mean that Iron Shepherd and Zion Radio will more than likely remain on the air for a longer future, because our advertisers will more than likely want to keep advertising with us if you patronize them.

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

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