October 6, 2020 Show with Jay Seegert on “Creation & Evolution: Compatible or in Conflict?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister, George Norcross, in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday, on the sixth day of October, 2020, and I am so delighted to have for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jay Siegert.

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He is the international speaker and author and keynote speaker and managing editor, managing director for the

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Starting Point Project. He holds degrees in both physics and engineering technology from the

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University of Wisconsin, Whitewater, and John Brown University, respectively, and he is also an ambassador and an on -the -board of directors for Logos Research Associates, and a representative speaker for Radio Christy.

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Today, we're going to be addressing the theme of his book, Creation and Evolution Compatible or in Conflict, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jay Siegert.

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It's great to be on the program, and I'm definitely looking forward to it, and honored to be here. Great. I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away, in the event that they have questions they'd like to ask, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

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chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Let's say you disagree with your pastor over something we'll be addressing today.

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Let's say that your pastor is an old earth creationist or something like that.

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Perhaps your pastor even believes in theistic evolution. You'd rather not draw attention to your own identity, or perhaps you're a pastor and your fellow elders disagree with you or vice versa on something we're addressing today, or your denomination is in disagreement with you.

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We understand that you'd like to remain anonymous if you are in a circumstance like that, but if you're just asking a general question, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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Well even before I go to your summary of your salvation testimony, why don't you tell our listeners about the

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Starting Point Project. Sure, the Starting Point Project is a ministry that was established to help

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Christians better understand and better defend the Christian worldview. My experience within Christianity has certainly taught me a lot of good things, but I've also noticed more and more there's an awful lot of biblical illiteracy within the church, and it doesn't always do the best of withstanding strong attacks against the

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Christian worldview. Many parents aren't ready to defend their faith, and it makes it really difficult to mentor their own children, and parents are so busy to begin with, they may not be spending as much time with their kids as they should, and they see a lot of youth walking away from the faith.

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So there are a lot of needs, I think, within the church. So our primary focus is within the church to try to strengthen it, to help them better understand

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Christianity, the message of the Bible, how to defend it, how to mentor their own children. But then, at the same time, we also offer a very gracious challenge to the sincere skeptic, because skeptics usually have really good questions, and we want to address them very graciously rather than trying to win an argument with them.

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So it's a ministry that I founded. I've been in full -time ministry the last 13 plus years, traveling around the country, but we've been in seven other countries as well, and I just,

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I feel like I'm just getting wound up, not even close to being burned out, getting a little more excited, and God is really blessing the ministry, and it's becoming more and more effective, reaching actual lives of people, and changing their lives, and getting them fired up regarding the authority of God's Word.

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Great. Well, if anybody wants more details on The Starting Point Project, you can go to thestartingpointproject .com,

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thestartingpointproject .com, and if you could, also let us know about Logos Research Associates, where you serve as an ambassador and a member of the board of directors.

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Sure. A number of years ago, I attended a bioinformatics conference at Cornell University, bioinformatics is just information in living things.

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It was, I think, what was it, 21 lectures in two and a half days.

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It was really, really intense with some of the world's leading scientists, and I got to know the professor who sponsored that,

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Dr. John Sanford from Cornell University. He's famous for having invented the gene gun, and worldwide famous for that, a very godly man, a very strong Christian.

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So I met him, and skipping some of the details of the story, I ended up going back to New York from Wisconsin, where I lived, to spend some time with him.

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I put a talk together I wanted to run by him. He looked at it, he really, really liked it.

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He said, yeah, it's scientifically accurate, had to do with DNA. So I spent some time with him, got to know him better, and then he invited me to come along to one of the meetings

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I had for this Logos Research Associates group he had started, which Logos Research Associates is a consortium, the largest consortium of scientists in the world who are

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Christians. So there's four of us board members, and then a whole slew of scientists who are part of the group.

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He founded that group, invited me to one of their early meetings. I went there, and while I was out there, he asked if I would consider being on the board, and said

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I'd pray about it, and I did, and I felt God leading me to say yes. So for the past, I don't know, maybe seven years now, been on the board of directors, and it's been phenomenal, because these are some of the world's leading scientists.

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They're doing cutting -edge research, and I get to be right alongside of them and learn a lot of these things, and I kind of serve as a middleman where I can understand what they're saying and then translate it into English for the real world.

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Another board member is Dr. John Baumgartner. He's built the world's best 3D computer simulation of plate tectonics, just kind of off the charts brilliant.

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But when I travel around and speak and I talk about my association with them, I usually tell the audience how smart those board members are, and that they're brilliant.

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Smart as they are, if they were here with us right now, they'd be the first to admit out of all four board members, I am the tallest.

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And then everyone... So I'm just honored to be on the board with them, and it's really helped the ministry tremendously, because they're doing some awesome research, and then

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I get to put in some really powerful talks that ends up changing lives. Praise God.

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And if anybody wants to find out more about Logos Research Associates, go to LogosResearchAssociates .org

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LogosResearchAssociates .org And last but not least, tell us about Radio Christi, where you are a representative speaker.

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Yeah, Radio Christi, it's Latin for reason for Christ, or reason of Christ. So it's apologetics, and it was founded primarily to be on state university campuses around the country and around the world to start these core groups, ideally student -led.

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You bring someone in a little bit more mature to help them get started, but then you want them student -led and sponsored by a staff member on campus.

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But they're a group like any other group, the chess club, the debate club, or something similar to like an inter -varsity or navigators, but their focus is defending the

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Christian worldview, but they're not necessarily a social group where they do a lot of praise and worship and things like that.

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But so they're on campuses growing, it's all around the world, and they asked if I'd be a speaker for them, so I've done a little bit of that, but I've been so busy with my own ministry,

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I haven't had time to really get to a lot of different locations. But it's basically apologetics, a group based on mainly state university campuses.

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Great. If anybody wants to know more about Ratio Christi, you can go to their website, which is r -a -t -i -o -c -h -r -i -s -t -i dot org, r -a -t -i -o -c -h -r -i -s -t -i dot org.

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Well, now as I alluded to earlier on, since you're a first -time guest on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, we do have a tradition here when we have a first -time guest in the program to have them give a summary of their salvation testimony, including an idea of what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in and what kind of providential circumstance our

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Sovereign Lord raised up in your life to draw you to Himself and save you. Sure.

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Great. I have two options with that. One is I could make something up that's super exciting, just fascinating, or I can tell the truth.

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I think I'll go the truth route, but I don't want to downplay it at all. It's very impactful for me, but I was kind of disappointed that I was going at one of the more phenomenal, life -changing stories, and I was kind of disappointed

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I didn't have one. But then looking back, I'm actually very thankful for what God did allow to happen in my life.

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So my summary is I was born into a family with Christian parents and two older sisters, also

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Christian. We went to a non -denominational Bible church that I actually really enjoyed.

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From the youngest ages, I just remember enjoying going to church, and not just because of my friends, but I enjoyed our

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Sunday school classes and the lessons from the Bible. I enjoyed the services, and we went every

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Sunday morning and every Sunday night. And every Wednesday night, our church had an awana program that I'm sure some listeners are familiar with.

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So I just was used to going all the time, and I believed everything that I was told. It didn't really sound strange to me.

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I didn't question it. I believed it. And that was starting at a very, very, very young age.

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And what I do remember is when I was five years old, my mom was leading a backyard

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Bible club for kids in the neighborhood, and she very clearly explained the

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Gospel message one day. And I heard that. It made sense to me. And I realized when she was saying, you need to place your trust in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,

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I realized I'm five. I don't know that I've specifically done that. I believe that God exists, and the

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Bible's His Word, and Jesus is the Son of God, but I've never really asked for this forgiveness. I certainly didn't know a lot more about the

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Bible other than I believe that God created me, and I knew I was a sinner, and I knew I needed a

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Savior. So at five years old, I placed my trust in Jesus Christ, my faith alone, for my salvation.

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And I can't tell you that I stopped taking drugs or stopped drinking right now because I was five years old.

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My life didn't have this drastic change. It just continued its pretty stable trajectory.

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And my parents, I was very close to them in my whole life. They passed away four and six years ago.

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But I just had a great family life. It was so biblically rooted.

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My dad was a great example of a Christian man, my mom a Christian wife, and so very stable home environment.

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Then I went to public schools, grade school, junior high, high school, and again, didn't really struggle with my beliefs.

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No one was really challenging me a whole lot. I witnessed some people here and there. Then I went to a

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Christian college, John Brown University in Arkansas to study mechanical engineering, and a great time there.

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Loved my experiences there, going to chapel twice a week, and church on weekends, and Bible studies, and some

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Bible classes, and engineering. But then I became more interested in physics. So I got an engineering technology degree there, but then

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I transferred from there in Arkansas back to Wisconsin where I lived to a state university to get a degree in physics.

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John Brown didn't have a physics major. And that's when everything changed for me.

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Going from a small Christian college where my engineering professors opened up every class in prayer, to a large state university where my physics professors did not open up in prayer.

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They were all evolutionists. Some of them were atheists. And they were telling me, in essence, everything

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I believed was wrong. And that made me feel very, very uncomfortable to be surrounded by these

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Ph .D. scientists who I assumed had a lot of evidence for what they believed. Found out later they didn't, but I assume they did.

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And I realized for the first time in my entire life that even though I knew what I believed, I did not know why.

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I could not defend my faith. And so this was really, really key.

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It's a bigger part of my story than I had ever realized. I went home, talked to someone at church, said, hey, my professors are challenging me.

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They're telling me I'm wrong, but I have nothing to say. And I said, well, you need to talk to this guy at church.

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He's getting his Ph .D. in medical physics. He's really into the whole creation evolution thing, which is what my professors were bringing up.

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So I spent maybe 45 minutes with him in his office. He loaned me two books. I devoured both of them.

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That was 34 years ago, and that's what launched an entire international ministry.

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And the key thing is today, so many youth are walking away from their faith. They go off to college and get challenged, and probably two -thirds or more are walking away.

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I didn't ask myself how come I didn't walk away until about after 30 years of ministry.

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It's like, wait a minute. I was challenged. How come I didn't walk away? The answer came within a half a second.

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It was my relationship with my parents. It was so strong. I didn't think for one second that they were wrong or would have lied to me.

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I didn't want to disappoint them by walking away. I didn't want to walk away. So I said, I'm going to find answers.

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If what they told me is right, there's got to be evidence. And if there's evidence, I'm going to find it. So I put all my energy into finding the evidence rather than with a lot of youth.

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They're looking for excuses to bolt because they're not too happy with mom and dad and inconsistencies at home and all the rules they've got to live by.

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They want to live a certain way, and the Bible's kind of against that. But they go off to college, and the professors give them all these academic reasons why the whole thing's not true anyway.

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Don't worry about it. They're like, yeah, I knew it. And then they use all that as weapons against their parents and walk away.

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So that's just a quick overview of my background. Great. Well, now

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I'd like to get into the subject at hand, the main subject at hand, creation and evolution compatible or in conflict.

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As you know fully well, not only your publisher,

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Master Books, but the plethora, as it were, of young earth creationist ministries that exist, not to mention old earth creationist ministries that exist, but they have written and have brought to light many of the issues that are involved in the creation versus evolution divide.

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Why is it that amongst the many books already in print on the issue of creation versus evolution, why did you feel a need for creation and evolution compatible or in conflict to be brought into print?

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Sure. Actually, kind of a funny story, relatively short. I have been speaking on these topics on the side for about 20 years.

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I wanted to go into full -time ministry, just never felt that God was opening the door, so I had to be content with having a full -time job.

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I did some engineering and energy management, and then I got into computer programming for 18 years, and then

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I had my own business for the last five years. And so I would work, and then just weekends and some weeknights speak at some

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Bible studies and Sunday school classes, and I spoke about 25 times a year. I was doing that for about 20 years, and when

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I felt called into full -time ministry, skipping a lot of those details for now,

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I realized I have to be proactive. I can't just wait for someone to ask me to speak at a Sunday school class.

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I need to actually be finding places, especially churches, to speak. And so I talked to my own pastor, and I said, ìHow do

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I get connected with more churches and get more speaking opportunities ?î And he looked at me and I'll never forget, he said, ìYou've got to write a book .î

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And I didn't say anything, but in my head I said, ìI'm not writing a book. I want to speak now, not like three years from now .î

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But he was 100 % right. I sat down and I started writing and produced this book, and it really opened a lot of doors, and I was also...

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I was not thinking. There just aren't any good books out there on creation and evolution. There didn't used to be a whole lot.

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There's getting more and more. There are some books out there that are okay, but there are a number that I think are really well done.

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So I didn't write it because there was nothing else out there. I wrote it because I was being counseled.

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I need to have something of my own that I have produced that people can see what I produce and where I'm coming from.

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And I was fortunate enough not only to write it, but then I've been told by some of the world's leading scientists they think it's the best overview that's out there, which

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I thought that was an over and above blessing from God that not only did it crank out a book, but apparently people like it.

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I wrote a kind of conversational file, but there's a lot of information in there. So that was kind of the impetus for me as to why crank out another book.

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But it's been very helpful because it does kind of cover the gamut. Sometimes you pick up a book on creation or some technical topic and they just hit the ground running.

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You know, facts, facts, facts, facts. And some of it's pretty cool, but you don't have the big picture.

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I try to write it more story style and take you through the natural flow and try to have everything make sense.

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And if something starts to get a little technical, I usually throw in a really simple analogy and then keep moving. So that was kind of the background as to what led me to write the book.

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Now, there are many who profess to be Christian who believe that evolution is completely compatible with being a

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Bible -believing Christian or being a Christian in general. I was raised, before my coming to Christ, I was raised in the

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Roman Catholic Church and went to parochial schools. The Catholic school that I actually went to for eight years as a kid, we were actually taught in our science class evolution and Darwinian evolution.

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And our science teacher actually had the audacity to tell the kids, don't listen to any of those fairy tales you may hear outside of this classroom.

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He was a lay teacher, as they called him. He was not a nun or, obviously, he was not a nun, obviously.

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But he was not either a brother or a priest or anything like that. He was what they call a lay teacher. And I'm not even sure how much of a professing

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Catholic he was. But he would tell us, don't listen to what you hear outside of this classroom about the fairy tales of Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark.

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These are all just stories. They're made up. They're fictional. And he taught that we evolved from apes and so on.

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And we just sat there listening in fascination. And, unfortunately, many of those kids likely grew up through adulthood still embracing those lies.

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And I can even remember vividly my sister coming home from college.

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She went to a Roman Catholic college that was at the time an all -girls college on Long Island.

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And I remember her telling my parents, hey, did you know that Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, all of that is made up fairy tales?

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They're just tools in the Bible to teach us some kind of allegorical truth.

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But they never really happened and that kind of thing. And, of course, even beyond the

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Catholic Church, and by the way, I don't want to broad brush either. As you know, there are traditionalist

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Catholics, and they're probably a tiny minority of Catholics, who are young -earth, literal six -day creationists who find abhorrent

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Darwinian evolution just as much as we do. But I have found in my dialogues over the years with Roman Catholics, even many amongst the so -called conservative

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Catholic Church, even many conservatives have bought into the idea that evolution is an acceptable theory.

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But tell us, and of course it goes beyond the Catholic Church, there are said to say, even in my own camp of Reformed theology, you have some who actually believe in theistic evolution.

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And we know that one of the most well -known, globally renowned

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Presbyterians in the United States, Tim Keller, is a strong supporter of biologos, and perhaps you could tell us what that means.

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But do you really believe that these folks who profess to be Christian are on solid ground, saying that these ideas are compatible with the

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Christian faith? Some might say they don't interfere with the gospel, etc. Well, it's a huge, huge topic, and I'm so glad that we're talking about it.

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And I'll premise everything else that I'll say from here on out to the end of the program, everything is really rooted in one question, and that is, do we believe the

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Bible is truly the inspired, inerrant word of God?

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Is it the ultimate authority for us, or do we go somewhere else for truth and then use that supposed knowledge to come back and look at God's word to decide what are we willing to accept and what are we not going to accept?

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And most Christians, and even a lot of religious people, they would say, well, sure, you know, the Bible is the word of God, but in reality they don't really live that way.

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They kind of pick and choose, and so when we approach this question or anything else, you know, if someone says, what do you think about transgenderism, what do you think about gay marriage, what do you think about this or that,

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I usually say, you know what, I don't think anyone on the planet should care what I think, but if God created this universe and He owns it, so let me just check a second to see if there's anything in His word that addresses this question that you're bringing up, and then

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I would just point them to what God says about it. If they have an issue with what I'm sharing, it's not really with me, it's with the words of Scripture, and then they'll have to deal with God on that, and they're, again, not accountable to me, but I'm just being used as a tool at that point in time to help them better understand what it actually says.

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So when this topic comes up, and it comes up all the time with people who are just vaguely religious, people who are very, very religious, and even very serious

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Christians who take the Bible very seriously, it comes up from all different angles, my first question to them is, can you show me from Scripture why you are so convinced that evolution is true?

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And often after I say that, very clearly, they say, well, I mean, the scientists have proven, you know, they've got the

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DNA similarity between chimps and apes, I said, no, we can get to that, that's the science stuff, and it's fascinating, and I definitely want to talk about that, but first, can you show me from Scripture, what is it that when you're reading, it just screams at you,

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God used a Big Bang, God used an evolutionary process over hundreds of millions of years, what is so convincing that you're seeing?

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And invariably, it's nothing. It always comes back to that they are convinced that somehow science has shown that evolution is a scientific fact, therefore you have to keep that in mind when you're reading

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Scripture, so when you're reading the six -day account, you come up with things like, well, you know,

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I was written by Moses, and back then they barely even had writing, and they weren't that smart like we are today, so God just had

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Moses, you know, tell stories that they could kind of relate to, but he never meant them to take it seriously.

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Well, again, that diminishes God's character, and what did we do for the vast majority of Christian history when we didn't have modern science?

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That means that God inspired Moses and other writers to write what they wrote, and God knew that people were actually going to believe what they were writing, and God was like, hey,

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I know they're going to actually believe I did it in six days because that's what I'm telling you to write, but eventually you guys on Earth will have scientists, and you'll be able to figure out,

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I didn't really mean any of that. I really meant this massive explosion 13 .8

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billion years ago, and then the Earth forms, and then life forms from chemicals, and then mankind evolved from an ape -like creature over the last six million years, and you'll finally understand that's what

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I actually meant. Well, why wouldn't God just say that? I mean, I'm not that sharp, and I could convey that story, that there was a big explosion a long time ago, and then blah, blah, blah.

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I could go on and describe all that. So why didn't God just simply say that in simple terms? Why did

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He tell us this story, and why is it written, actually, as historical narrative?

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The Genesis creation account is Hebrew historical narrative. It's written as if this is actually what happened.

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There is poetry in the Bible, but you're not finding the allegory of the poetry there in the

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Genesis creation account. So that's my first point I make with people is, what is it in God's Word itself that is driving you to this conclusion?

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And it always comes down to they're so convinced from science somehow that they force themselves to look at Scripture differently.

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In fact, let's go to your second point right after the first station break that we have to go to now. And if anybody wants to join us for the question of your own, again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with more of Jay Siegert.

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Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak, and have grown to love,

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Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

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That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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We are excited to announce another new member of the

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In Psalm 139, verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

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He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

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Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

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God, like the psalmist did? May God bless you, and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

40:27

Thank you. Welcome back. This is Chris Sorensen, your host of Iron Troop and Zion Radio.

40:35

And our guest today, if you just tuned in, is Jay Siegert. He holds degrees in both physics and engineering, technology from the

40:44

University of Wisconsin -Whitewater and John Brown University, respectively. He's an international speaker and author, keynote speaker and managing director for the

40:54

Starting Point Project, an ambassador and board of directors member for Logos Research Associates, and a representative speaker for Ratio Christi.

41:04

And we are addressing today his book, Creation and Evolution, Compatible or in Conflict.

41:10

Our email address, if you'd like to join us with a question of your own, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

41:17

And as you were saying before the break, whenever someone brings to you a statement or a question that involves in their minds a conflict between what science has proven to be factual and what

41:36

Christians are teaching, largely using the scriptures as their source, you have asked them how they, as a professing

41:45

Christian, have used the Bible to discover or prove what they are committed to.

41:52

If you want to reword that or recap that in your own words, and then move on to your second point.

41:59

Sure. Basically, what we had mentioned was when people do come with some particular view, in this case we're talking about someone who says they believe that God used evolution as his creative process, and call that deistic evolution, that's one term for it anyway.

42:18

And so when they say that, my first question is, can you show me from scripture how you came to that conclusion?

42:26

What is it in scripture that is so convincing that God used this evolutionary process, which would include something like the

42:33

Big Bang to begin with, wounding it off 15 billion years ago, and then mankind eventually evolving from an ape -like creature over the past 6 million years, and we've been around in our modern form supposedly 200 ,000 years.

42:46

So I said, please, show me from scripture, and I don't say this sarcastically, I'm very sincere,

42:52

I'd like to know what it is in there that's convinced them, and invariably they will say something about science or whatever, and I say, well, hold on, we'll get to that in just a second.

43:02

Right now, I'm trying to find out what it is from God's Word that has brought you to that conclusion.

43:09

And I have yet to have even one person take me right to the verses and say, well, this verse indicates this, this verse indicates that, and they really don't, many of them, not all, but many of them really aren't even that familiar with scripture itself.

43:24

They have a vague understanding of God's Word in general, probably more so the

43:29

New Testament, Jesus, and they're maybe pretty good with that, the Old Testament, they know some of the stories, but they really don't know scripture themselves that well, and one of the reasons is they've been told by other smart people that science is pretty much proven evolution, it's a fact, you cannot argue with that, and there are brilliant Christians who have figured out that it fits in perfectly with the

43:52

Bible because God is all -powerful, he can do whatever he wants, he can use an evolutionary process that doesn't contradict anything in the

43:58

Bible, so at that point, in the person's mind who has approached me, they're thinking, the two fit together, it's a win -win, case closed, and on the surface, on the surface, it seems to make sense, like, well,

44:12

God is all -powerful, and if scientists have proven evolution, then I guess, you know, there's no reason to argue, and so that person no longer really has motivation to actually go to scripture and really study it deeply because they're kind of told, don't worry about it, it does fit in there, and even if you are reading it, it's not meant to be taken literally, it's just a story, an allegory, well, why really deeply study the

44:38

Hebrew or the Greek of an allegory? You just kind of think, well, it wasn't meant to teach what it's actually saying, so you don't even delve into it, so that's the biggest thing is the vast majority of people that I run into who have this kind of a compromised position have not arrived there through scripture, they are convinced that science has proven, supposedly proven evolution, and the majority of those people don't even know the science.

45:04

In their mind, they have faith that somehow, I guess it's proven and there's all this evidence and that's good enough for them.

45:11

There are a few who could begin to talk about the science, but most can't even do that. Well, that really leads me to another question.

45:21

Aren't a lot of scientists really not using science at all?

45:28

They are unconsciously really preaching the gospel in quotes of another religion, a religion they call science that is not really scientific at all.

45:41

They're really expecting you to believe what they are telling you just because they and their colleagues in the upper echelon of the hierarchy of academia and in the halls of science tell you these things are true and it's really a matter of faith, it's a matter of keeping up and perpetuating the tradition that scientists have taught for quite a long time.

46:11

I'm not even saying they're consciously doing that necessarily, but isn't that in essence very often what they are doing?

46:18

They're not even really teaching science, because isn't science something that you have to prove through repeated experiments resulting in the same outcome and that kind of thing?

46:31

Yeah, there's a couple of things going on here. One is overarching this whole thing is

46:36

I think there's really spiritual blindness going on in many of these cases because you've got very, very intelligent people who are fairly sincerely convinced that evolution is somehow true and I don't think that hardly any of those people are lying.

46:53

When they're teaching evolution or claiming they think it's true, that's really what they believe.

46:58

I'm sure somewhere someone's lying about something, they're probably strong Christians, they might be lying about something, so I don't want to paint too broad of a brush here, but most of them are pretty sincere and they're typically just repeating the only thing that they've ever heard.

47:13

They've never heard a strong scientific case for the literal six -day creation account.

47:19

That's never occurred to them. They certainly don't hear the public school system or documentaries or YouTube videos or anything like that.

47:26

So they've only heard one thing and it seems to make sense to them on the surface. So the other element here is the idea of science.

47:34

When we say the word science, one thing that comes up in people's minds are some scientists in a laboratory doing these experiments and they're basically proving things and you cannot argue with what they come up with because science, in their minds, is black and white.

47:49

It is what it is. It's so tangible and it's so clear -cut, whereas religion, including the

47:56

Bible, that's more of the ebbs and flows and it's feeling and it's stories and it's spiritual and it can be what you want it to be and it's different things to different people.

48:07

So that's the general mindset and then they're also intimidated by science. Most people don't want to get into a debate with someone who is a scientist.

48:16

They feel that they're going to be blown out of the water. But here's something that really clears up a lot of the controversy and many of your listeners are probably familiar with this, but there are really two types of science.

48:29

We have observational science, sometimes we call it operational science, and then we have historical science.

48:40

The observational science deals with things that we typically do in a laboratory. We make cell phones, fast computers, space shuttles, cure diseases, it's great stuff.

48:53

Creationists and evolutionists are not debating operational science. We know how it works, but too often the skeptic says, well you

49:01

Christians, you creationists, you guys reject science, you just believe the Bible. That's not true at all.

49:06

In fact, most major areas of science were founded by Bible -believing Christians. That's where it was birthed out of the

49:13

Christian community. So we're not debating operational science. If you say that you don't believe in evolution, you are not saying you don't believe in cell phone technology.

49:23

It has nothing to do with that. The other type of science is called historical science, and that deals with events that happened in the unobserved past, like a big bang, supposedly 13 .8

49:36

billion years ago. Well, guess what? No one was around to see that happen. They can't reproduce it in a laboratory.

49:44

They can't test it directly. But the same thing goes for the six -day creation account.

49:51

None of us saw that happen. We certainly can't reproduce that in a laboratory, and we can't test it directly.

49:59

So both of the views, evolution involving a big bang and all that, or a six -day creation, they fall into the category known as historical science.

50:09

Now, there's actually nothing wrong with historical science. It's just different.

50:17

It involves a lot of guesses and assumptions as to what happened a long time ago when no one was around to see it. And different scientists have different guesses and assumptions as to what they believe.

50:27

And so what they're doing is they're looking at things today that they can actually see, and they can maybe test and do experiments.

50:35

And by looking at the results, they're making guesses as to what might have happened a long time ago.

50:42

And every single piece of evidence that they do look at today has to be interpreted to give them any meaning.

50:50

Facts do not speak for themselves. They're just facts. You have to interpret them to give them meaning.

50:57

And here's where it's interesting. The way you interpret facts is by using your current beliefs.

51:03

Whatever you think is true, you're going to use that set of beliefs, your worldview, your presuppositions, your starting point.

51:09

You're going to use that to look at some facts and say, this is what I think that means. And so we're not talking about different groups of facts here that evolutionists got their pile of facts and literal creationists, you know, we've got ours and we're throwing them back and forth or weighing them, who's got more?

51:26

No. All scientists are living on the same planet. They're looking at the same dirt, same DNA, but they're interpreting it differently, not based on the facts they're seeing, based on what they believed to begin with.

51:39

So if you are kind of skewed towards, well, you know, they've proven the Big Bang and I guess they have all this evidence for evolution, as you look at new facts, you're going to interpret them in the light of what you think is already true.

51:50

I know evolution is true, I know the Big Bang happened, so therefore, these facts I'm looking at now,

51:56

I've got to interpret in the way that's comfortable and fits well with my current views. Whereas a six -day creationist would say,

52:03

I am convinced from Scripture that God created everything just the way he describes in Genesis 1 and 2.

52:11

So when I'm looking at these facts, there's got to be a natural way that would be consistent with what

52:16

God's Word tells us. And when you do that, one side is going to very often have to jump through a lot of hoops and twist things and come up with some really strange explanations, where the other side, very consistently, these things seem to have a very natural, simple explanation that fits in well with Scripture.

52:37

I have an entire talk that I call Surprise! The Bible explains that, and I go through eight examples of things that scientists have discovered that are confusing to them, but when you know

52:46

Scripture, it makes perfect sense. In fact, we have to go to our midway break right now, and I'd like you to pick up on that where you left off.

52:55

We have to go to the longer break in the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because the

53:05

SEC requires of them to localize Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio and all their programming to Lake City, Florida, and they do so by airing their own public service announcements and other local things, while we air our own globally heard commercials.

53:21

So, please use this time wisely while this longer break is being conducted. Write down as much of the information provided by as many of our advertisers as possible, so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, which will mean that Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio will more than likely remain on the air for a longer future, because our advertisers will more than likely want to keep advertising with us if you patronize them.

53:46

We depend completely on the funds of our advertisers and our generous supporters.

53:53

So, please try to patronize them as much as you can, and also use this time to write questions to our guest,

53:59

Jay Siegert, at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away.

54:04

We'll be right back with Jay Siegert after these messages from our sponsors. Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine

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Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

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The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the

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Bible's reliability, and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.

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Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the Northeast United States, reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the

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Bible. HBS's founder, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church.

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Come journey through their website, historicalbiblesociety .org. The collection includes a complete 11th century

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Bible, an actual page of the Gutenberg Bible from 1455, the first book ever printed, the

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Geneva Bible, the 1611 King James Bible, and much, much more. Visit historicalbiblesociety .org

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today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

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Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

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I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

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Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

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Chris up for just such a time. Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com

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Here's what Gary DeMar, President of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio recently.

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Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time. I have to tell you you're one of the better interviewers out there and I've been doing this for more than 30 years.

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

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Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio airing live Monday through Friday 4 to 6 p .m.

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Eastern Time at ironsharpensironradio .com Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

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Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

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Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

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Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

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Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

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For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333

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That's 631 -385 -8333 Or visit liyfc .org

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That's liyfc .org As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

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They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

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God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

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Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

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.com That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

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Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Thriving Financial is not your typical financial services provider. As a membership organization, we help

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Contact me, Mike Gallagher, Financial Consultant at 717 -254 -6433

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Again, 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the

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Lending faith, finances, and generosity. That's the Thrivant story.

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GetWorldNow .com GetWorldNow .com

01:03:13

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line Webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

01:03:35

I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

01:03:43

New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

01:03:54

Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

01:03:59

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

01:04:05

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net

01:04:12

That's hopereformedli .net Or call 631 -696 -5711

01:04:19

That's 631 -696 -5711 Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

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I'm Pastor Nate Pickowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmont and Ironworks, New Hampshire, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, New York, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Steve Hereford of Eastport Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Florida, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the

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Church in Friendship in Hopley, Texas, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

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Go to nasbible .com That's nasbible .com to place your order.

01:06:24

This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:06:30

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

01:06:52

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

01:06:59

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:07:22

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org That's gracechurchatfranklin .org

01:07:29

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Sovereign Lord, God, Savior and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

01:07:54

We are excited to announce another new member of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family,

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Bhanu Gadhi, owner of three New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

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Bhanu Gadhi earned his doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic.

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Please contact Dr. Gadhi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

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To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000.

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Greetings in the matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadhi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

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In Psalm 139, verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

01:09:08

I praise you, because I am fearfully and wonderfully made, and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

01:09:16

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

01:09:21

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That's Solid -Ground -Books .com Before we return to Jay Siegert and our discussion on his book

01:14:30

Creation and Evolution Compatible or in Conflict we just have a couple of more important announcements to make.

01:14:37

First of all, tomorrow, this is especially something that should interest our

01:14:44

Anglican listeners. We seem to have a growing number of conservative Bible -believing

01:14:49

Anglicans in our audience. Well, tomorrow, we have as a returning guest somebody who

01:14:55

I absolutely love to interview. He is utterly brilliant and really fascinating.

01:15:02

His name is Roger Salter, Rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama. He's going to be addressing the theme,

01:15:09

George Whitefield, We Must Be Taken Out of Ourselves. George Whitefield, We Must Be Taken Out of Ourselves.

01:15:18

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01:18:32

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01:18:45

Creation and Evolution Compatible or in Conflict? chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:18:50

chrisarnsen at gmail .com And you were discussing right before the break observational science versus historical science.

01:19:00

Observational science is actually what you will commonly find more

01:19:05

Christians using in their argumentation because they're actually using science.

01:19:13

I remember the debate that Ken Ham had with the pseudo -scientist

01:19:21

Bill Nye, the so -called science guy, who's not even really a scientist, but Ken Ham made it clear that he was the one, and creationists are the ones, those that believe in intelligent design are the ones that are actually using observable science because what we believe, you can actually prove in laboratory experiments and so on.

01:19:43

In fact, we even know, I mean, secular atheistic scientists have to admit, due to the scientific evidence, that dogs give birth to dogs and cats give birth to cats and pigs give birth to pigs and birds give birth to birds and fish lay eggs and when they hatch, fish come out of those eggs and human beings give birth to humans.

01:20:13

And they also have to admit that mutants are typically not fertile enough to continue breeding and you can go on and on and on with the scientific evidence that really blows evolutionary theory out of the water.

01:20:30

Am I right? It really does. It's ultimately not an academic debate.

01:20:36

That's what the world thinks it is because it's posed that way so that the narrative, we deal with narratives all the time.

01:20:43

We're dealing with the COVID narrative and the election coming up, there's narratives there through the media and the narrative with evolution is, you know, it's been proven, it's a scientific fact so we're dealing with these narratives but when you really look at science, the actual scientific evidence that we know of is not in support of the

01:21:07

Darwinian story but that's what we're supposed to think because again, that's just part of the narrative.

01:21:13

That's what everyone learns. Most people go to public school, grade school, junior high, high school and maybe state university and you're just going to hear the same story over and over and over and over and when you hear something often enough, it just kind of becomes a fact in your mind and so if someone else comes along and they say,

01:21:30

I actually think that the six day creation count is true, the response is generally something like, oh yeah, you're right and all the scientists are wrong and that's, it's intimidating for most people in that situation.

01:21:44

I would respond a certain way to that but most people don't necessarily have the background to know exactly what to say. They are intimidated not knowing really how to respond but the science is very clear and it clearly aligns with an intelligence design scenario and even further than that, a biblical scenario.

01:22:03

If it was just an academic debate, you would take all the brilliant scientists around the planet and you would find that they all believe the same thing because they're brilliant scientists and they know the science but that's not the case.

01:22:14

Some brilliant scientists are atheists, other brilliant scientists are very strong biblically based

01:22:21

Christians and then you have some brilliant scientists or anywhere in between the whole gamut so there's more going on there than just looking at some dirt and DNA.

01:22:30

This is a spiritual issue and it's how things are being interpreted so it doesn't really necessarily come down to the nitty -gritty science that has to do with the starting points that we have and that we use to interpret this evidence.

01:22:43

Yeah, and in fact the secular scientists even if they're atheists are supposed to believe that matter can neither be created nor destroyed and obviously we agree with that.

01:22:54

Of course, speaking of strictly natural sources it can matter cannot be created or destroyed and yet we believe it has been created because we believe in a supernatural source

01:23:09

God himself who is everlasting to everlasting and omnipotent and so on so we have the only logical answer to where did the universe come from because now they have to point to something that must have existed prior to the origins of the universe, right?

01:23:34

Right, it's interesting when you're talking to someone that's coming from an atheistic standpoint one of the questions they need to answer in fact, everyone has to answer is if you start off from the very beginning okay, where did everything come from?

01:23:49

Now, we know the Christian response the Bible says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and Psalm 90 verse 2 says that God is from everlasting to everlasting so the

01:23:58

Bible tells us God has always existed he did not come from anywhere he didn't begin to exist he's always been in existence and he brought the physical universe into being supernatural that's what the

01:24:11

Bible explains there's a lot of evidence from logic and science that make that very reasonable but if you're an atheist you also have to answer the question of how did we get something?

01:24:22

Where did the universe come from? And Stephen Hawking who he was arguably the world's leading theoretical physicist died last year a brilliant brilliant scientist he was, you know asked this question because he needed to address it as an atheist why is there a universe here?

01:24:39

And his response I think I have this memorized now I'm not looking at anything but he said because there is a law such as gravity the universe can and will create itself from nothing most people don't want to debate the world's leading theoretical physicist but what

01:24:56

I tell my audiences and I haven't mentioned this yet but the main thing I do is I travel around and speak in conferences and churches and schools and universities and we don't even charge anything 34 years of speaking

01:25:09

I've never charged a penny but when I'm talking to my audiences and I share that quote

01:25:14

I said let's let's just forget for a second who this guy is his background and let's actually analyze what he said because statements have to stand on their own we can't say well it's true because this guy is smart you have to look at what is the statements being made so he said because there is a law such as the law of gravity the universe can and will create itself from nothing so then

01:25:38

I repeat that I said I'm going to restate this a little differently so we can think through this because there is something the law of gravity the universe can and will create itself from nothing well wait a minute if you have something you don't have nothing and what was the something he mentioned it's the law of gravity ok what is the law of gravity it's not a physical thing that you can take into a laboratory and weigh and paint and bend it is a description of how the universe operates but you can't have a description of how the universe operates unless you have a universe to describe but if you have a universe to describe you don't have nothing and you're not creating it from nothing because it's already there so there is an example of a statement from a truly brilliant scientist that doesn't make any sense at all and it's not because he's lacking facts he didn't need me to come alongside him and pour more facts in his head he needed a different starting point to use to interpret the facts we do have a listener from sharpsburg georgia we have lou in sharpsburg georgia who says do you do you i think he means do your presentations for youth uh i i see i i'm reading this incorrectly do you do presentations for youth and if so how do you keep them interested for the duration of your talk well i can answer that question if you're talking to boys especially dinosaurs but uh how would you how would you answer that question because obviously young ladies might be not that interested in dinosaurs and of course youth is a relative term uh he could also be referring to teenagers and so on but what if you could answer lou's question sure i've spoken to groups all the way down to five years old on up and i i've gotten pretty good at crafting the message towards where they are and their understandings so i use really simple analogies with young kids and i bring up topics that you know they would be interested in so sometimes if i just have kindergartners for second third fourth grade one of the talks that i would give would be dinosaurs because most kids are somewhat interested in dinosaurs because they just seem kind of cool and they've already read some books on them and they might have some toy dinosaurs so you've kind of got their attention and in my presentations i'm kind of a perfectionist with my power and my intelligence and i don't want to be a stumbling block by offending them i want to graciously welcome them and say you know what the questions that you just raised those are actually really good questions so i'm so glad you brought them up so everyone else could hear them and now everyone else can hear the answers so thank you for doing that and then i just answered the questions i never said anything else about them or that you're rude or you need to leave and it totally diffused and i don't want to be a stumbling by offending them and i don't want to be a stumbling block by offending them and now everyone else can hear the answers that you so thank you for doing that and now everyone else can hear the answers that you need to leave and now everyone else can hear the answers and now else can hear the answers else can hear the answers i love them come back come back again come let both children offer tea and learn more from us and also to our friends at CBBBS .com.

01:31:03

We also have, let's see here, we have

01:31:09

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who asks the question, ìAre all of our old earth creationist brothers and sisters in Christ also believers in theistic evolution?

01:31:24

Can you be one without necessarily being the other ?î

01:31:31

Those who consider themselves to be Christians, and I never question their

01:31:36

Christianity. I may ask some probing questions, but if they tell me theyíre a Christian and if they can define it biblically that they seem to have the proper understanding,

01:31:46

I donít get hung up on that. Iíll ask them some other questions, but for those who are claiming to be

01:31:51

Christians and do believe in an old earth, old universe, some of those do believe in theistic evolution, that basically virtually anything that the secular scientists come up with they think is true, and weíll just say that thatís the way

01:32:04

God did it. But there are others who really see massive scientific and logical problems with the whole idea of Darwinian evolution, and like, they just canít even imagine that.

01:32:16

They donít think that happened, they donít think the Bible describes it, but yet, at the same time, theyíre so enamored by the astrophysicists and geologists that talk about millions and billions of years, they donít really question that part, and they think, ìWell thatís not a big deal,

01:32:31

God could still create over long periods of time ,î and there are various ways of doing that, oneís called the gap theory, oneís called the day age, and just very briefly, the day age would be, yes, weíve got six days of creation, just like the

01:32:44

Bible says, however, those days were actually millions and millions of years each, so when you add them all up, you get the history of the universe built into those days, theyíre not normal solar days like we see today, and that sounds really intriguing on the surface, like, ìWow, that makes sense ,î and a lot of people right from that point just run off, and now thatís their view.

01:33:05

They havenít really looked into it biblically to see if that works, and wonít go into it right now, but it actually does not work with Scripture and the actual

01:33:14

Hebrew that we see there in the Genesis creation account, so it might sound good on the surface, and those who do accept that, they largely accept it because of what they think science has proven with the age of the earth and the universe, and then they throw that on top of Scripture as a filter and say, ìWell, those days canít be regular days because of what we know ,î but if I had just a few minutes with them,

01:33:37

I would throw out some basic things about radiometric dating and carbon -14 and a bunch of other things, and theyíd be like, ìWow,

01:33:44

I didnít know that. That I guess does kind of make sense. I guess maybe the literal six -day creation account does make more sense than I realize .î

01:33:56

Well, thank you, Susan, and you have won, actually, our last copy. Master Books has only given us two copies to give away, so you have won the last copy of the book we are addressing today, ìCreation and Evolution, Compatible or in Conflict ?î

01:34:14

And once again, please make sure we have your full mailing address so that CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship that out to you as soon as possible, and again, we thank

01:34:26

Master Books for their generosity in donating to us these two copies of J.

01:34:33

Siegertís book. We have John in Bangor, Maine who asks, ìYou mentioned earlier that Tim Keller of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Manhattan is very supportive of the organization

01:34:48

BioLogos, but no one gave an explanation of what that is. Could your guest please provide us with one ?î

01:34:56

Sure. Sometimes when someone says one term, the listener is hearing something else, and I remember that happened with myself.

01:35:05

I went to John Brown University in Arkansas for engineering initially before I did the physics, and a really good friend of mine, the whole time

01:35:13

I was there, thought I was at Bob Jones, even though I always said John Brown, in her mind she was hearing Bob Jones, and so it was just kind of interesting.

01:35:21

You can say one thing and someone might be thinking something else. The reason I bring that up is Iím on the board of Logos Research Associates, which is a consortium of these scientists who are

01:35:31

Christians who believe in the literal six -day creation account. BioLogos is a very different organization founded by Francis Collins.

01:35:41

He was the head of the Human Genome Project. The president is Deb Harmsma. That is an organization of people,

01:35:51

Bible -believing Christians, that is their claim, and again, Iím not going to question that, but itís a group of Christians who say that evolution is very much true and very much compatible with Scripture, and I would very much disagree with them, but the whole world doesnít need to kowtow to what

01:36:08

Iím saying. I always challenge people, listen to different views, thatís fine, but always compare it to Scripture yourself as you pray and say, ìGod, please use the

01:36:20

Holy Spirit in my life to help me understand this better, of whatís true .î You donít want to say, ìWell,

01:36:25

I have a certain belief because of this expert A versus expert B ,î or whatever, because then youíre telling yourself, ìIím incapable of understanding

01:36:32

Godís word .î In fact, no one is really capable unless you have these experts around. Well, what did we do before we had experts in science and all that?

01:36:40

So, go ahead and listen to what they have to say, understand. I told my own kids I want them to understand evolution better than anyone else.

01:36:47

They donít, because then theyíll understand the problems with it as well, and so itís an organization that does accept theistic evolution, that God used evolution, and they say they believe itís compatible with Scripture.

01:37:00

I couldnít disagree with that much more than I do. I donít think thereís great science behind it for many, many reasons, which we probably wonít have time to get into the nitty -gritty of that, but I also really donít think it fits in with Scripture, which is the more important thing, because if I donít say that,

01:37:18

Iím insinuating, you know, if you really want to understand the Bible, youíve got to bone up on science, youíve got to know more about biology and geology and anthropology and physics and astrophysics and all that, and then with that, you can get a much better understanding of Godís Word.

01:37:33

Iíd say, no, if you never learn anything about that, thatís okay, just study Godís Word and pray, and God is fully capable of helping you arrive at the truth through the

01:37:42

Holy Spirit. You donít need any so -called experts, even me, to come to that truth, but your view of the

01:37:49

Bible should be based on your own personal studies, and not some expert out there, whether itís

01:37:54

Francis Collins, myself, Tim Keller, or anyone. Again, listen to whomever you want, initially, but always compare it with Scripture.

01:38:01

So itís a very prominent organization, they get millions and millions of dollars from the Templeton Foundation, and theyíre making a big effort to get into evangelical churches to help train pastors to believe in evolution and to preach it to their congregation.

01:38:14

Now, what is the explanation given by these folks, and of course, individuals are individuals, they donít necessarily say or believe in the same things that others who believe something similar to them are saying and believing and teaching, but is there any consensus as to why these folks who claim to be

01:38:41

Christians on the one hand, claim to believe in the Bible, and even the inerrancy of Scripture, and yet believe that itís important for us to teach evolution,

01:38:55

Darwinian evolution, and that we actually came from, that Adam and Eve were not created as the

01:39:01

Bible describes, Adam being created out of the dust of the earth, and Eve being created out of Adam, but that they had humanoid or non -human ancestors and so on, why is this something that they think is important to teach?

01:39:21

Well, itís interesting, I will talk bigger picture, because I think it would apply to the people of this group and many other organizations,

01:39:31

Christian evangelists, speakers, even other Christian apologists. My experience in 34 years now is typically what happens is if someone is studying the

01:39:44

Genesis stuff, and letís say theyíre not quite sure what the truth is, but they want to delve into it deeper, if theyíre doing so, and theyíre leaning towards that it certainly seems like itís same six days, itís pretty straightforward with the

01:39:58

Hebrew there, if they go that route, they have instantly lost the approval of the entire academic community around the country and around the world.

01:40:10

They will be made fun of, they will be ostracized, no one will be on their team anymore. They will also lose favor of people in most churches across the country.

01:40:20

They will even lose favor with a lot of people within even many evangelical churches.

01:40:26

There will be a few people who will be on their team, but those are the people that everyone looks at as the oddballs, theyíre kind of the nutjobs.

01:40:33

So thatís what would happen if they do end up going that direction. If, on the other hand, they go the other direction and accept a big bang and much or all of evolution, they will have the instant acceptance of most scientists around the planet.

01:40:49

Some scientists might look at them and say, ìWell, weíre grateful that you accept our science and youíre seeing itís true, we think you go too far with the

01:40:56

Jesus stuff, but eh, we can tolerate that .î So theyíll have the acceptance of the scientific community around the world, the universities, secular publications, most religious people, churches across the country, and even many people in the evangelical body of the church.

01:41:13

So itís a little bit easier to go that way because itís comfortable in masses that way, and most people arenít going to challenge you.

01:41:23

Theyíre not going to ask you to prove anything. Theyíre just going to say, ìWell, I guess scientists have proven it and Godís all powerful, so it makes sense to me .î

01:41:30

But again, if you go the first route of saying, ìWell, it certainly seems like six -day creation ,î people are going to jump all over you and say, ìProve it.

01:41:37

Youíve got to be crazy. Youíre rejecting science. Itís unsettled science. Itís an uncomfortable position to be in .î

01:41:46

The Bible says in the book of John that many people listening to Jesus believed in him, but for fear of the

01:41:52

Pharisees kicking him out of the synagogue, they didnít want to admit it, because they feared man more than they feared

01:41:58

God. And I think with some scientists who are Christians and buy into evolution, I think thatís partially whatís going on, is they kind of want to praise a man, saying, ìYouíre an amazing scientist.

01:42:10

Youíre one of the worldís leading scientists .î But if they start to doubt evolution, all of a sudden theyíre ostracized, and theyíre downplayed, ìWell, heís not a real scientist, because if he was, he would have kept believing in evolution, but he doesnít, so we can just write him off now .î

01:42:23

And now, you canít get published anymore, and you might lose your job, and how do you make a living?

01:42:29

So, itís easier just to kind of tow the line and go along with these messages. Well, we have to go to our final break.

01:42:37

Itís going to be a lot shorter than the other two breaks, but if you have a question that you would like to ask of our guest as well, please submit it quickly, because weíre rapidly running out of time.

01:42:48

Thatís chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. Donít go away.

01:42:54

Weíll be right back, God willing, right after these messages from our sponsors. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Call 1 -800 -669 -4878. This is

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Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:47:25

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

01:47:32

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:47:55

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org, that's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:48:03

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

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When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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♪♪ Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back and we have a question from CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who wants to say,

01:52:56

How do you answer the question that although this is an interesting academic debate that may exist among Christians, it really does not infringe upon the gospel and therefore there is no danger in anyone believing in theistic evolution?

01:53:12

I happen to believe there is great danger, but how would you respond to that? Yeah, great, great question.

01:53:18

Very, very important to address. It isn't directly a salvation issue, but it's really important and here's why.

01:53:28

When I talk to someone who brings this up and I'll ask them, What's going to happen to you when you die?

01:53:33

Again, assuming I'm talking to a Christian, and they'll say, Well, you know, I said, Okay, just humor me.

01:53:38

Well, I'm going to go to heaven. Okay, why? Well, because I placed my trust in Jesus Christ. Okay, why did you do that? And I keep probing.

01:53:44

They say, Well, I know because I'm a sinner. Okay, why are you a sinner? Well, because I sinned. Okay, I get that, but why are you a sinner and why do you sin?

01:53:53

And I might pause and say, Well, it's because of Adam and Eve, you know, in the garden. They go, So you, that's the

01:54:00

Genesis thing, right? The Adam and Eve in the garden? Yes. Okay, so you just brought us back there.

01:54:05

So tell me more about what was going on. And basically, the long story short is,

01:54:11

I get people to back into this issue to realize that what they believe about Genesis will determine what they believe about the gospel message.

01:54:19

Romans 5, 12 was by Adam's sin that brought death into the world. And if we had more time, we'd explore the whole age of the earth thing.

01:54:27

It's not about the age of the earth. It is about the entrance of death into God's creation.

01:54:33

And what you believe about the Genesis creation account will determine what you believe about the age of the earth.

01:54:41

And when death came here, if you accept billions of years, big bang and evolution, then you accept that God formed this earth over long periods of time and that the layers of the earth are hundreds of millions of years old.

01:54:53

And those layers are literally filled with billions and billions of fossils. What's a fossil?

01:54:59

Fossils are made of a dead thing. So apparently creatures were living and dying and suffering for hundreds of millions of years before the earth was finished.

01:55:08

Adam and Eve weren't even here. When it's all done, God plants a garden, puts Adam and Eve in it, and they're saying, oh, this is such a paradise.

01:55:16

It's a perfect world. No, you're living on top of a graveyard of billions of dead things, of death, disease, pain, and suffering.

01:55:23

So when Adam sinned, that didn't bring death into God's perfect creation. Death had already been around, it was part of God's process.

01:55:30

So why was Jesus coming, dying on a cross, if it's God's fault, in a sense, that death was here?

01:55:37

He's the one who brought it here, not mankind. On the other hand, if you believe God created in six literal days and you know it got so bad about 1600 years later,

01:55:47

God says, that's it, I'm going to destroy the earth. He sends a global flood, which catastrophically lays all those layers down, burying creatures that were alive.

01:55:55

All that happened after Adam and Eve, because it's Adam and Eve's fault. That brought death and suffering into the world.

01:56:02

That's why Jesus had to come and die on a cross. So if you're a theistic evolutionist, you have to believe that death didn't really come the way the

01:56:11

Bible literally says, because that's just a story and it didn't really happen that way. Well, then what's the point of the gospel message?

01:56:17

You really have to jump through hoops and twist scripture to get those two to work together. By the way, you just mentioned the global flood.

01:56:26

I thought that I would titillate the audience with another program to look forward to.

01:56:35

On Wednesday, the 21st of this month, 21st of October, we are going to be joined for the first time by Tim Clary to discuss his book,

01:56:46

Carved in Stone, Geologic Evidence for the Worldwide Flood, or Geological Evidence of the

01:56:53

Worldwide Flood. So you might want to mark it. He was just at my house a couple of weeks ago. I flew him up from Dallas to spend a few days with him and show him some geology around here.

01:57:03

Great guy, great book. So it's going to be an awesome program. All of the listeners hearing me right now need to tune in when he's there

01:57:11

October 21st. Yeah, this is a massive, very heavy, hardcover book.

01:57:17

It's a doorstop. You could actually use it as a lethal weapon. But if you could give us in summary, in about two minutes time, what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today?

01:57:31

The number one thing, in a sense, is not about creation and evolution. It's about the authority of God's word.

01:57:39

Do we really read it and trust what it says, or do we in turn go somewhere else first, establish knowledge, and then come back and tweak it and make it fit with what we think we know from some outside source?

01:57:52

God says what he means and mean what he says, and we can trust everything it says cover to cover.

01:57:57

And the more you really look at science, the more it fits with the straightforward reading of God's word from cover to cover.

01:58:04

If we can't trust God's word for what it says about the beginning, how can we trust it for anything else, including the return of Christ, which is a big deal for Christians.

01:58:12

So I would urge your listeners to study scripture and compare everything they're hearing to what

01:58:20

God's word actually says, because one day they're going to stand before God and they're going to give an account not about my word, or about Tim Keller, or about Bio Logos, or anyone else.

01:58:30

God's going to say, what did you do with my word? And we're responsible for what it says to us through the

01:58:36

Holy Spirit. That's the most important message. Great. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your contact information that they can find out more about you.

01:58:48

First of all, if you want to find out more about the Starting Point Project, go to thestartingpointproject .com,

01:58:56

thestartingpointproject .com. Don't forget about Logos Research Associates, logosresearchassociates .org,

01:59:04

logosresearchassociates .org. And Ratio Christi can be found at R -A -T -I -O -C -H -R -I -S -T -I .org.

01:59:13

I want to thank you so much, Jay, for being my guest. I look forward to your frequent returns to this program to discuss other things on the great subject of creation.

01:59:22

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater