Christian Nationalism: Yay or Naw

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What you want around me. All right, ladies and gentlemen.

Welcome to Open Air Theology. I am one of the co -hosts. My name is

Jeff. I am also one of the elders of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church in Tallahoma, Tennessee.

If you're ever in Tallahoma, Tennessee, or in the surrounding counties, please come out and check us out.

And I'm going to pass it down below me to my brother Haps Addison. Well, hello.

This is Haps Addison. And I am a member of Covenant Reformed Baptist Church. And one of the hosts of Open Air Theology.

And the host of R &B Studios. And, yeah.

Now I'm going to pass it to the left of me. Rick. I am

Rick Emerson. I am a co -elder at Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho.

And, yeah. I got a wife and four kids. That's enough about me.

Yeah, so I'm the other co -elder at Valley Baptist. Super thankful to be a part of that church.

If you live in the area of Hagerman, it would be a blessing to have you come and check it out. Come worship

God with us. I also have a YouTube channel called Reformed Ex -Mormon. I have a business called

Donner's Oak Company. What else can I say about me? I'm also a Christian nationalist. There it is.

Well, there you go. I mean, so tonight's episode is

Christian nationalism, yay or naw? Right? Did you say?

Oh, I thought you said something. Another word. Naw. Naw. And so what we have here tonight is a debate between two

Reformed Baptists and two Presbyterians. It's all low blows.

I'm not a very good Presbyterian. Listen, it's all down here from here. Okay? Listen, we saw the baby dedication.

Save that because we're going to use that here in a minute. Right now. All right. Okay. So tonight we're going to talk about Christian nationalism.

So as far as I know, see Braden used to be with me on this. So Rick has convinced

Braden of Christian nationalism. And tonight their goal is to convince myself and Haps Addison of Christian nationalism.

See, but that isn't even all the way true. You were the one that first got me on to Christian nationalism. And then Rick just gave me the means and the methods of it.

And so it was. How did I? Hold on. How did I? We're going to get into it. We're going to get into it, dude.

The show is starting. Rig it. Rig it. Okay. Do you remember the couple of shows or the single show that we did on the statement on Christian nationalism?

You remember doing that? Yes. You were the one that was very adamant about going through it and proving theonomy wrong.

And as we are going and reading through it, we're like, yeah, I agree. I agree. I agree.

And at the end of that show, I was like, there was some points that I could agree with.

Yeah. There's points that I didn't agree with. All I'm saying is that you were the one that first opened this cattle, this bag of worms.

And I was like, that actually makes a lot of sense. That's very fair point. So then. I've made this statement before.

Like, no one is a bigger Christian nationalist than myself. Let's define what.

In one sense. Right. Because I want my nation to be a Christian nation. Well, okay.

But. But we got to find out what Braden means. Yeah. What do you mean? What do you mean? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So Christian nationalism is going to be defined differently based off of different groups.

That's why. But the issue, though, is that even if the world gives us wrong definitions for a word, it's especially in its infancy like it is right now, it's wrong to just abandon ship and the definition of a word,

I think. And so using the document that we read earlier, the definition there is Christian nationalism is a set of governing principles rooted in Scripture, teaching that Christ rules as Supreme Lord and kings overall king of all creation who has ordained civil magistrates with delegated authority to be under him over the people to order their jurisdiction by punishing evil and promoting good for his own glory and for the common good of the nation.

That is what I would say using that document. I think that's what a lot of Christian nationalists are going to be arguing for what the definition is.

And maybe even more finally, I would say that a nation, a nation is a

Christian nation when they're allowing God's transcendent law, the moral law of the

Ten Commandments to influence their cultural laws that they implement to govern the people.

And so it is. Which laws? I there's a there's probably what's up.

What was that? I said, which laws? What did you say? That's the whole point.

A Christian nationalist is going to say that we should utilize God's law to ordain or not ordain, but to to make morally good standing laws and in all laws, in all regards, and across the

United States and Idaho and Tennessee, all laws should be governed by God's transcendent law. So transcendent, are you talking about the first decalogue as well?

So I think that I don't think you can necessarily punish somebody. So if somebody is born in the world,

I would not promote the idea of us killing individuals or putting people to death based off of them worshiping a false god.

So I think that there would be more regulation that would be going on in the second table of the law. But I still don't think it would be a bad thing to promote the idea of the first table of the law in some regards.

Not not to the extent that is going into your guys' minds right now, though. I can I can guarantee you that.

So can I ask a question real fast? Just, you know, just real fast. So what which denomination of Christian, which flavor of Christianity here in California is going to be the ones that that we want to model after?

Because you have some Christians that say alcohol is bad and you have some Christians that say not.

Some some Christians say that we should kill homosexuals. Some say there's no

Bigfoot, you know, but we all know there is a Bigfoot. But that's that's

I think that's the scary part for me is because, I mean, who gets to pick the laws?

I mean, in which type is it the Methodist version of Christianity or is it the

Reformed Baptist or the Presbyterian? Or I mean, like, you know, it's I think it's it's really sticky.

Yeah. Well, everybody has to have a standard for like laws. Right. Everyone has a standard.

And so what should the standard be? What is it just is arbitrary?

Are we just like, is it democratic and we're going to take a poll of the population and whatever they think should be.

But I want you to understand. So I see what you're doing. You're doing the same thing that the theonomist do when it comes to God's law.

Right. Like it's the same argument that a theonomist makes. Yeah, exactly.

Right. You're saying. So are you saying that God's law is not just. And that's it.

And that's not what not theonomist are saying, nor non -Christian nationalists are saying.

We know God's law is just. But what we also know is that it's that it's written in the heart of the believer.

And it's the believer that has the Holy Spirit who is able to keep the law, not the unbeliever.

And we're not under a theocracy anymore. Yeah. I mean, which I don't know your position,

Rick, so please forgive me. But I know that Braden professes to be an amillennialist.

He is a big reason why I have switched over to amillennialism.

Yeah, me too. Right. And and and so how and as an amillennialist, we believe that that God's kingdom are, you know, that, you know, like it's not of this world.

It's not of this world, but it's in the it's among us. It Jesus said it's in your midst.

Right. Right. So it's spiritual in one sense. And yet what

Christian nationalism and theonomic rule is saying that we're going to establish

God's kingdom. So when you're speaking of Christian nationalism or I'm asking the question, are you saying what what the theonomic postmillennialist is saying that you are in the process doing the work of establishing

God's kingdom? Absolutely not. Not in my view. Just if we're going to have if if I was in a position in government, what was

I what would I base laws, any laws I want to get past? What would I base them on? And I think you you either have just you have man's laws or you have

God's laws. Right. You got man's standards. You got God's standard. And so I'm not trying to bring

God's kingdom into into existence. But if I want to look at a standard,

I want to go off God's standard for. So do I.

I'm not saying you don't, but I think that applies in our it's not just spiritually. It's not just in the church, not just in our family, but it's something that if the loving to love my neighbors to promote good, what is good?

What God has said is good. God's law is good. And so the more that a nation's laws reflect

God's laws, the better it's going to be for my neighbor, the more loving it's going to be for my neighbor. Yeah, I can.

I'm sorry. Go ahead. I was I was going to I was going to say, though, like to add on that, like that that's where each one of us as the husbands and fathers of our family, we have what

I would say is a Christian family, even though we might have individuals in our family that are not born again.

I would not call them a Christian individually, but I would say that they're being raised with Christian morals and principles, deliberately trying to bring them under in line with what

Christian values and promote. And so taking that same concept in the family and you expand it out even into what makes a

Christian school Christian school, is it because everybody inside of it is Christian? Well, no, it's the idea that they're being governed by Christian principles and Christian morality and laws and all those kind of things.

And so when you get to the scale of a nation, again, all laws are moral.

And I'm not saying let's bring back the judicial and ceremonial law in Israel. In fact, that actually,

I think, is an example of Christian nationalism. I'll bring that up here in a moment. But if we had our laws governed by God's 10 commandments, the laws that are written on either our stony heart or our fleshly heart, they can actually do something to convict man.

I know that we would agree on that, that that's how we are to convict men of sin. But that's that's that is the only argument

I think that we can have to like. And when we think about lesser evils, right? Like if somebody came into my house tonight,

I'm going to stop them. And I'm going to do that violently against them.

OK, somebody's breaking into my house to hurt my family. I'm going to stop them. Now, let's say I wound them and they're in prison after that.

I'm going to preach the gospel to him after that. Right. Or because that's or even if he's on the ground dying,

I'm going to preach the gospel to him. Right. That's the long term solution. And so the immediate issue right now and in multiple countries and multiple places in the world is something that needs to have an immediate stop.

And that immediate stop, I think, is a Christian idea of lawful ordinances being put forth.

And that would be like somebody breaking into my house. I'm going to stop them. And because we have lawful ordinances, then the gospel can be proclaimed in a more clear way.

So I like today I would I would much rather have a government system that is being ran by God's 10 commandments than a government system that is promoting

LGBTQ rights. And I'm not saying that you guys would be against that. I'm saying, yeah, that's what that's what

I'm picturing. A Christian nation as a somebody that wants to push against obvious evil. Yeah, I understand 100 percent.

And I think I've made myself clear that I, too. Would love that.

All right. Here's my problem. I don't trust men.

Yeah. All right. If you put someone in charge of delegating these these laws, these 10 words, right.

Who's to say that he's not going to take advantage of me? I'm just reminded of that movie, The Book of Eli. Oh, yeah.

Right. And how he and how that and how the bad guy in there was after Denzel Washington, because he had the

Bible and the man wanted the Bible because he knew if he had the Bible, he could use the Bible to manipulate the people.

Right. And and and that's the whole idea. And that's what we see has has taken place throughout history.

Right. And to say, well, they done it wrong, but we'll do it right. That's what the people who are running for secularism are saying.

Right. All of that secular nation did it wrong. We Americans who are secular, we're going to do it right.

I don't trust them and I don't trust a Christian who is who is put in a position to to delegate this because simply because of this.

Christians screw up, too. Yeah. Right. Do we see this in church history?

Go ahead. I'm sorry. Well, do what if you had to if you had a choice of voting for a

Christian or a pagan, who would you rather have? A Christian. OK, so you do trust the

Christian more. Yeah, but yeah, but here's the thing. So I absolutely trust the

Christian. I absolutely believe that Christians should be in office. Christians should be at the polls and all this other stuff.

And I'm sure we're going to dive into all that. And my point is.

If when someone is laying down these, you know, like you're taking the 10 words and you're trying to.

General equity, the words. Right. I would want to be in the room and have a say.

Right. Like there needs to be some kind of a in my opinion, there needs to be some kind of a council that takes place.

Right. And we see this in mere Christendom, how they try to set up. You know, there's certain things that a

Christian would need to believe and stuff like that. And even that has failed. Like there's so many hoes in that.

It's a it's a container that that cannot hold water.

And so it's the for me. Let me just address everyone real quick.

There's no way that we can read the comments right now. So if you're asking a question, there's just no way with everything that's usually we try to get to the comments.

But this is such a big topic. I cannot take my eyes off. I cannot read the comments to focus.

If someone else wants to read comments, that's up to y 'all. I'm not going to be able to read comments and pay attention as well.

Yeah. I hope we'll go ahead. I'll finish later. Well, it's just look at me.

Jeff and I, we come from the postmortem. Yeah. I used to be postmortem. Yeah.

Yeah. We were both postmortem and stuff. I I've come into the

Aumil perspective and I'm really starting to lean towards the

Escondido II kingdom theology. And I'm not there. Well, no, no, no.

I it's just something. And this is OK. But my whole thing is, is when I look at this, we keep looking at Christian nationalism through Western eyes, like like like somehow this is going to work in another country.

Anytimes God's law has been applied to another country, it is failed, failed every time.

When it first came here to America, what happened when we implemented God's law? We had the same witch trials.

People died. And then because of God's law, because of God's law, it's not because it's because of man.

All right. And my whole thing is, is like when we look all throughout Scripture here, you know,

I just preached on this in February and Daniel chapter six, you had Daniel, worshipper of God and a pagan nation.

All right. And and here God's getting all the glory. It doesn't matter if it's a pagan nation or it doesn't matter if it's a theocracy.

I mean, just plain and simple. Philippians 324, our citizenship is in heaven.

And from it, we await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. And Jesus says, where I go, you cannot go.

But where I go, I'm going to prepare a place for you. Peter tells us we are pilgrims passing through.

That Abraham was looking for a city that's maker and the foundation was not built.

Hold on. How does it go? Anyways, that it's built by God. Right. We're not

I'm not trying to establish some kind of a kingdom theocracy.

Right. What I am doing is I am going out week after week and I am preaching the gospel.

Praying that God brings revival. And so and so. So I listen to Doug Wilson and again,

I love Doug Wilson. And he mentions that it's not top down, but it's bottom up.

Everyone's talking about that. It's bottom up. So. So give me a scenario, if you will, of of how we can like like.

Again, there's no one view of of this as far as I can tell. But your view of Christian nationalism, give me a scenario of how it comes to play.

Yeah. So first of all, I want to address something I think I've seen in the chat and then also something on,

I think, what Hap's just said to like with the post -millennial view. I'm not post -millennial because I don't think that this is going to be what brings about the

Christ. I think Christ will come about when all elect are saved. And so you guys already know that I have a pessimistic view in that regard to how

Christ comes back to the world. I think he's coming back to save a world that's seeking the blood of a

Christian rather than a the the world singing God's praises when he comes back.

And so that I'm not post -millennial. And so what I'm saying, though, is because I don't know if Christ is going to come today.

And even if I did know he comes today, we would do what Luther says, which is I'd still plant a tree. I'm saying he might come in 500 years ago or 500 years in the future from now.

And what is the best means to promote, promote good? If civil authorities in Romans 13 are supposed to be punishers of evil and promote good,

I think Christians should be pushing for that. And that's where I'm saying if somebody breaks into my house right now and tonight, I'm going to stop them.

This is the immediate. This needs to take place. And so even in the example that Hap's gave. Yeah. Christians have done bad things throughout history.

This is a fact. But still, I would rather have Christians doing bad things through history than having

Christians, right? People claiming the title Christian doing bad things rather than a godless nation promoting pedophilia and LGBT stuff.

Before you go, because you just did something with the scarecrows. When you said Christians, are y 'all talking about Luther and Calvin?

No, no, no, no. I'm talking about the Salem witch trials. Even in the Salem witch trials, there was,

I mean, Bigfoot believers here, there was legitimate demonic stuff going on. We tend in our history books, we tend to just like always all the overreaction.

But there is legitimate demonic witches that were killed. And it got out of hand a little bit, but not nearly to what we think it was.

And there was Christians killed underneath Luther as well. I mean, James White.

How about the Christian crusades? He tells the story very well, right?

And you know, like, again, it's not my view versus their view.

Because I don't think anyone wants, because I want our nation to be

Christian. I just don't see a scenario where it can take place.

Would you have considered our nation a Christian nation when it was first founded many years ago?

Would you have said that that is a Christian nation? Well, I don't want to take the straw man thing of where people are saying that Christians can't be nations.

But I would say, I mean, that nations can't be Christians, right? Yeah. So I believe that for the most part, our founding fathers were

Christian. And just like you would say that you and your wife are

Christian. My wife are Christian. Our house is a Christian household, though there's unbelievers here.

Like I get that argument, right? But I have rules in my house that are separate from God's law, such as don't run in the house.

But that's tied, though. It gets its efficacy from loving your neighbor, though. So like today, so like in America, we don't buy.

So like to give you an example of how this is implemented, right? Let's just say in another nation, in another country, there's a certain type of animal that's being sold that we don't have access here in the

United States to. And that animal is producing disease in the community. Would it be fair for the government to say no more selling that animal because you're killing our neighbors?

Like that to me is following the principles of Christian nationalism. And it's even though that nowhere in the

Ten Commandments does it say don't sell another animal to your neighbor. It's using the very principles of that law gets its efficacy.

It gets its power from God's transcendent law. Just like what? So perhaps

I think the example that you used with Daniel is perfect because when did Daniel go against Nebuchadnezzar?

When it violated the transcendent law, when he was told to bow his knee, he did not bow his knee.

So he was a Christian nationalist. He was pushing for the laws to be Christian in that day. So he's pushing for nonbelievers to keep a law that they were never given.

They were given not to worship another false God. Everybody's given that. Everybody has that law written.

Hold on. I got to say something. Second part of the decalogue, I definitely agree.

Everyone knows there's a God because of creation and that's why we have all these religions.

They know there's a God. They just don't know who he is. God condescended in the person of Christ so that we may know who

God is. He can't be revealed to exegete. Everyone knows.

Everyone has always known that it's wrong to lie, steal, kill. And they might only know it if it's done to them.

But we cannot say that in the sense of adultery because they know there's a

God because of creation. They don't know him. So they carve idols and they make up gods in their own image.

Look, what I'm saying is in the case of Babylon, when they built a false

God and Nebuchadnezzar said bow to it, that was even a violation of the second table too.

Because in that, they were telling him not only in general, everybody knows a God, but you're going to bow to me in this.

Okay. So I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. That it's a violation to God. Absolutely. It's a violation to God.

But I don't think it was a violation to Nebuchadnezzar's conscience before he knew the truth.

Well, if you believe that he ever met. I got to say this. All right. So when I was, you know, about our nation being founded and everything, we were escaping the three waves of Calvinism that actually came over here.

The pilgrims, the Protestants and the Scottish reformers. They were all coming over here, fleeing, fleeing what?

Religious persecution from who? From Christians. Yeah. And they come over here and start their own

Christian nationalism and start persecuting Christians. Yeah, they came over here.

And when you look at what the Christians were killing Christians because they were combining state and law.

And so my whole my and I just got to get this out real fast. And then you go ahead,

Rick. Is, you know, Brayden, when you said that, hey, if someone breaks into your home, we live in America, right?

You live in Idaho. If someone breaks in your home, you have a right to defend yourself, protect your family.

And if you have to put a bullet in him, he's going down. Right. That's illegal in California. Yep. Yep. That's illegal in California.

So, again, you know, so we keep trying to Americanize Christianity.

And try to have it make this into some type of theocracy when it's it didn't work.

When the when God's law was implemented in any nation for the last 2000 years, any nation.

Now, do we have like do we make laws that like, OK, you have to wear a seatbelt, right?

You know, because, you know, you don't want people to die. You have certain driving speed limits because, you know, of course, we love neighbors and stuff like that.

All right. Yeah, I don't see nothing wrong like that. But what about if you're told to wear a seatbelt and you get pulled over by a motorcycle cop?

You get a ticket. Yeah, but he's not wearing a seatbelt. Oh, he's not wearing a seatbelt either.

Yeah, nothing says that crooked. How crooked the law is, is get pulled over for a seatbelt violation by most.

But when I was talking about when I was talking about King Darius and everything like this here,

God was glorified. He would not. He would. He was worshiping God, worshiping

God. All right. And that was against the law to worship God.

Now, what happens? So Jesus, I mean,

God rescues Daniel from the lion's mouth. It's proclaimed by Darius.

In fact, I have I just happen to have it open right here. And Darius gives glory to God, but it doesn't say anything about him changing the laws of the land.

Yeah, it was still a pagan nation. So, yeah. And so real quick,

I feel like that we're I feel like we're part of J .P.'s podcast right now because nothing's getting settled here.

So so we need a 30 minutes in. We need a pick on, you know, like, like, go find somewhere to go and stay on it till it's clear.

Or else this is going to be a podcast where it's just miscellaneous conversation that's getting nowhere.

And yes, Bigfoot is not a Christian nationalist. You just said it. You just said it,

Jeff. You just said yes, he is. Jacob, you need to repent, brother. Make a mug, make a mug,

Jeff. Bigfoot is a Christian nationalist. So a couple of things.

Oh, look at Brandon Wood said. I can't see where you guys get that stuff. Y 'all use

God's law to bring sinners to repentance, but you can't use it to inform the state to do good?

No, no, no, no. That's not a good question. That is absolutely not my position, because I believe if you pay attention,

I believe that, again, I said it earlier. No one's a bigger

Christian nationalist than me. I just don't see any way that it can be done.

So so so let me give you some scenarios and please push back. I know you want to read from the confession and we got some scripture.

All right. So so so if you believe that it's top down, that it cannot be top down unless we have a king.

Right. Because every four years, another leader is going to get put into position.

And if you're and if your goal is to have a king, how is that not different than what took place in first Samuel, that they rejected

God as their king? And so and so I want to take the liberty and say that I hope

Christians are not saying, give us a king. Are you saying that democracy or our current constitutional republic is

God then? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

No, no, no. I don't want a king. I don't want what we have. My hope is not in this world.

I'm looking for a new heavens and a new earth where righteousness dwells.

My hope is not in this present evil age. All right. Now, with that,

I do want to use God's law as a mirror. And when

I evangelize with someone, whenever I look into it for myself or for the government, my thing is, is

I just don't trust our government with God's law because I don't trust. Calvin couldn't couldn't contain it.

Right. And I love Calvin. I'm just saying that man is sinful. And when men come into power and have this power, something has got to govern them from taking advantage of God's law.

It's just like this whole thing with Israel. Right. I truly believe. And, you know, and all my brothers can come at me if you want to.

But they are so close to building this third temple. They had the blue snails. They got the red heifers.

There's not going to be a temple built. God is sovereign. This war is not past him.

And he has put an end to what was going to take place. And we can dive into deeper than that on another episode or whatever.

Again, I'm just saying if you truly if you truly believe that God is sovereign, what's taking place in our nation right now is under his control.

Jesus Christ is king right over both. So if you like, you know, I think we got to agree that there is two kingdoms, the kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of light.

And Jesus is king over both kingdoms. He's ruling and reigning, even in this darkness, he's putting all of his enemies under his feet.

OK, so my first scenario, my first scenario was that that if you're saying top down, that means we have to have a king.

Now, what I'm saying is, is I think it has to be bottom up in order for this to actually take place.

It has to be bottom up. So what does that mean? That means Chris, the majority of our population has to be

Christians in order to vote in Christian leaders. Well, that's not going to happen because Christians are lazy and they will not get off their freaking butts and fulfill the

Great Commission. I go out week after week preaching the gospel.

Most Christians I know, 95, 99 percent of Christians I know do not do any evangelism.

And I don't want to hear a Christian nationalist tell me about God's law when they're not outside on the streets, preaching the gospel, trying to make, trying to disciple the nations.

So someone is not out on the streets just trying to do their best to disciple the nations. What they have to say about Christian nationalism, like it's again, it's a container full of hoes that don't hold water.

I got to say, though, like every Christian nationalist that I ever have heard and anybody I've ever talked to that would say that would promote evangelism and actually do it as well.

And so, like, I guess my pushback on that is, is there an example that like I'm saying I do this?

You know me. I know. I know. So so is there an example of a Christian nationalist who is saying otherwise, that we should only be going into the law room, not into the streets?

I have had I'm not going to name names, but I have had Christian nationalists try to preach to me about Christian nationalists and they do not go out and evangelize.

And I do not have time for that because I go out and evangelize and try to disciple my nation, my neighborhood, beginning in my neighborhood.

You see what I'm saying? I go out and I do the legwork. And when I hear someone telling me about Christian nationalism and they do no evangelism in their neighborhood,

I ain't got time for it. Right, right, right. So, again, I think what is the gospel? The gospel is the long term solution, and it should not ever be foregone.

I'm saying gospel needs to be at the core center of everything. Right. But I think that the immediate stop and again, like, what am

I saying constitutes a Christian nation? I'm not just talking about the United States. I'm talking about any nation here on the world, whether it's small or large.

I'm thinking that a nation is called a Christian nation when they are trying to implement laws that are in line with God's transcendent law.

And I don't think that that is ever wrong. Like, we have a nation that promotes abortion, pedophilia, all these types of terrible sins.

And I think that the last thing we as Christians ought to do is just turn our backs to it and say, my kingdom isn't here.

I agree with that. Amen. Our kingdom isn't here, but we are still to be evangelists. We're to be pilgrims here, like you said, we're to be actually as we're passing through trying to bring other pilgrims with us.

And that only gets done, I think, through trying to stop the current evil that's around us.

I pray that this coming Lord's Day, you will listen to the message that I'm going to preach because it is going to be powerful on this subject.

And you're going to say, how can you preach that message and not be where I am? And here's the deal is that I am a realist.

When revival comes, when true revival comes, guess what accompanies it?

Persecution. The church grows under persecution.

Now, let me I'm going to read something to you, and I want you to to explain to me Christian nationalism, where Paul speaks in 2nd

Timothy, chapter three, beginning in verse 10. He says this, but you follow my teachings, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, persecution and sufferings such as happened to me at Antioch and Laconum.

I hope I said it right. And at Lystria, what persecution

I endured and out of them all the

Lord rescued me from. And so it's a real quick in Antioch. He was rejected by his people in Laconium.

He was stoned. And then verse 12. Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

All right. And what I feel like. I don't I don't want to be persecuted, but I don't want to not be persecuted at the same time.

OK, and what I feel like Christian nationalism that we're trying to do here in America, we're trying to to build something that safeguards us from persecution.

And that's not what I see in Scripture. All who desire to live a godly life will be persecuted.

And I want revival to happen. All right. Not so that I can be persecuted, but so that I can be persecuted.

And I don't know how to make that make sense to you. No, brother, look, you're talking to somebody that's gone through tremendous persecution.

I know you have. I know you have. I know you Phil. But I need

I probably should let Rick speak a little bit because I haven't talked a lot. No, I think it's just trying to have the

Bible promote good and punish evil. Sorry. Go ahead, Rick. I think we're actually a lot closer to being in agreement than it on these things than we probably realize.

So I'm the odd one out as not being a millennial. You're not a millennialist?

No, I'm actually the odd one out. What are you? Most of Christian nationalism as I'm a premill.

So I'm I'm I would identify myself as an optimistic premillennialist.

Is that a thing? It is. I made it up. It is. Look at Michael Schultz.

Praise God. Praise be to God. So where like I like Jesus could come back tomorrow.

Start a thousand year millennial reign. Yeah. And amen. Or it could be 10 ,000 years down the line.

And so, yeah, like throughout history, there's been there's been better and worse times.

We're dogging on Western civilization and Western culture a little bit.

But if you want to and see, Christianity didn't do any good. If you want to compare the West to the East or the

West to the Middle East, like or even if you want to even look at the difference between the

Western church and the Eastern church. Right. Eastern Europe, like there was blessings in Western civilization.

That was a result of of Christianity or Christendom. And so there has been blessing.

It's not been perfect. But there's pretty much every good thing that we have that's come through civilization and culture that we have is as a result of having of Christendom of Christianity being pervasive in the culture, whether it's hospitals or universities or even are the good things, the blessings of our economic system that brought people out.

Poverty is a result of Christianity. And so, yeah, was it perfect?

No, because we're sinners, but it was better than the pagans were doing. And so I'm like I like like like you,

Jeff, I don't see. I'm a realist. I don't see how our nation is at this point is going to be re -Christianized like in its current state.

And so as as a my my being part of the identifying as a

Christian nationalist would be more if if Christ does tarry and he doesn't come back for another thousand, five thousand, ten thousand years.

What am I like? We've had highs and lows in history in the last 2000 years.

There's been things have gotten better. There's been things have been worse. And so I'm optimistic that if Christ Terry's things get better as a result of Christianity and maybe our current system is in the collapse and what's going to replace it?

Well, we we start local when maybe it won't be my children, but maybe my children's children or their children, if if Christ Terry's.

And so we we start instituting and doing local stuff, doing city stuff, building community.

And and that would be it's not a we're going to take over the nation for Christ and everyone grab their

ARs and we're going to go march. That's not my my view on it. But let's say things do get better.

What do we do with Paul and Second Timothy three? All who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

Now, we are living in a in a time in American history where we're living in the unfruitfulness of Christians of 50 years ago who did not go out and evangelize.

Right. So we're living in their unfruitfulness. America right now is cursed because of their disobedience.

Right. And I want my children to live in my fruitfulness and my grandchildren to live in my fruitfulness of my being obedient.

But if I'm honest with you, because of the the ratio of those that witness again,

I've been street preaching and witnessing in some capacity since 2010. And I only know a handful of people personally that go out and witness.

All right. I have been like I've had people try to catch me on fire. Like I can tell you story after story.

I do not want to be persecuted, but I do not not want to be persecuted. All right.

And so this tells me. That, well, let me say like, yes, the reason why our government in one sense has not been persecuting the church is because there's nothing to persecute.

They have not been bucking the system. I, on the other hand, go into the public square and buck the system.

And I'm sure that y 'all do, too. I'm not just speaking for myself. I mean, I know for sure Brayden does. Haps has been coming out with me,

Rick. I don't know for sure about you, brother. I'm just saying I know for sure that I go out.

I can only speak for myself and that I go out. I've been persecuted. I don't want to be persecuted, but I do not not want to be persecuted.

And if you ask me, we have to be persecuted.

Revival must come. Revival comes. We'll be like the book of Acts. I'm preaching on revival right now in my church.

We are going to be persecuted. And what happens in persecution? Great growth.

By chapter four, we have probably. I think it's I think it's

I don't know. I can't remember. I got the number wrote down in my sermon. Let me grab it.

How many Christians you have? Let's see whose volumes doing that.

I could be mine. Let me let me check. I probably need a new mic, which

I just bought this mic. Let me start at this. Yeah, we both got the same mic. Yeah, I don't know.

But OK, so it started out three thousand. It was one hundred twenty three thousand five thousand men.

And so that means the word man there is is is man. It's not mankind.

If you just take half of that and add women. How many is that? You know, it's like within a matter of days when the

Holy Spirit came. There were thousands of Christians and it was during persecution.

And what I'm saying is the only way that I believe that the church is going to grow in order for us to elect a

Christian officials is if a great persecution comes and a great persecution is not going to come to a church that is not in a public square, preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And this is why I have very little hopes for us in America, because it's it's probably, you know, like if you take like like.

So my county probably has, let's say, a hundred churches. As far as I know, my church is the only one that does open air preaching.

As far as I know, I hope I'm wrong. And there's only two of us that's been going out.

And what do they always tell us? Yeah. Jeff, what do they always tell us when we're out there?

We always have Christians coming up. We live in the Bible Belt and it's like a church on every corner.

And we've got to go straight from a church. Yeah. Right. And we always have people show up and they always go like this.

We need more people like you doing this out here. And it's like there's a church every 50 feet. Yeah. But why are you not doing this?

I wanted to just say this. Jeff, is that yours? I don't know. I'm going to mute mine.

Yeah, it's yours. It's yours, Brayden. It's that wire.

For Christmas, we're getting you a mic. I gave him a mic. We're going to give him a brand new mic, brand new wire.

That's it right there. But he needs a new wire. He's got his headphone mics on. He doesn't got that one hooked up.

That's what he's being lazy. Lazy. So I think we keep and I want to be honest.

You know, like I love the zeal of post -millennial theonomist.

I love their zeal. I think that, you know, and I'm not saying that any of you guys are anything.

But the whole thing is, is we're the only nation on Earth that's like this where we can even have these discussions.

And we keep thinking that that Christianizing a nation.

We have communist nations out there. We have, I mean, all different kinds.

And I just don't see it happening. You know, I don't

I think we keep looking at this from an American, American, you know, lenses, you know, like again, when you look at, you know, our nation and everything like that, it's just God's law was implemented at the very, very start.

And and then it declined within within a few generations. And it got perverted.

And I just look at I mean, look at out where I lived in California.

All right. It was I went to a meeting. All right.

With over 100 pastors. And it was hosted by the sheriff's department.

All right. And all the city councils who are all

Christians. All right. From five different counties. I mean, five different cities within Riverside County.

All right. And we were all told that they they wanted to get the homeless off the streets.

And so they were going to make it illegal to feed the homeless, illegal to house the homeless.

And in all the Christians were on board, except for a few of us.

It's illegal in Riverside County to feed the homeless. But I got to.

OK, go ahead. Sorry. Now. Now, again, you have different forms of Christianity that think that homelessness is you're cursed if you're homeless.

So, again, what I say is like what type of Christianity are we talking about that is going to govern govern the land?

And I think that that we look at again, we're looking at all the United States. But individually, you have federal, you have state and you have local.

OK, that's your three forms within within our country. All right. Other countries are nothing nowhere near that.

They don't have that. All right. Yeah. But I think the Christian conversation it talks about is this nation will be Presbyterian.

Is this nation going to be Baptist? Is this nation going to be so on and so forth? I think that's putting the cart before the horse, because, you know, the real deal is our

Christians going to get out on witness. If it is from the bottom up, then they have to get out on witness.

And I know for the most part, a lot of this has to do with the post -millennial mindset. But but but let's be real honest.

So modern day post -millennialism is is is optimistic all -millennialism.

If the post -millennial now believes that the first advent came with Jesus Christ in it, and then at the second advent is the consummation, that's all -millennialism.

Post -mill believed in some kind of a future goading year of one thousand years.

Right. That's post -mill. That there's going to come a time where there's going to be one thousand years and it's going to be like a goading age where most of the world is

Christianized. If you hold to first and second advent, but the inauguration and the consummation, that's all -millennialism.

All right. And if you and if you think this is going to get better and better and better and towards the end, it's going to be it's going to have like the world might be

Christianized in some way. Well, that's just optimistic all -millennialism. So so let's just get that straight.

So most of these people that say they're post -mill, they're really just all -mill with just optimistic.

Right. Because we don't want to in the 21st century come up with a new eschatological system.

You see what I'm saying? Are you following me? So because I hear a lot of this, a lot of people in the comments there, they're saying things and I know they don't believe in historical post -mill.

So they're really just on the optimistic. So I just want to lay that out for you and you can do with that what you will.

So when it comes to this whole theonomic and all that stuff,

I know that this is not what it's about. But Brayden, you said that you wanted to read something concerning God's law.

And I mentioned to you earlier that that that if words matter.

Yes. So this is when it was off air. If words matter, even to say the 10 words, the 10 commandments, the

Decalogue, that is a theonomic view. Right. Because theonomy, just theos, numos, theos,

God, numos, law. It just depends on how you define that word. Yeah. So it just depends on how you define that word.

And I want to set something straight. If someone's saying that they're a theonomist. And all they mean is general equity.

Yeah. You do not have to separate yourself from Christians by saying you're a theonomist, because if you're reformed and you're a

Christian, then you hold to general equity. If you're saying you want to take mosaic law and drop it on America, that's heresy.

Galatians chapter three tells us that the law ended with Christ, the

Moses ended with Christ. It even tells us that the Abrahamic covenant, according to the flesh, all that was only until Christ.

And if someone out there wants to debate that, let's set it up, baby. And I think that, you know, also says there's no

Jew nor Greek. Yeah, yeah. But that's talking about salvation, though.

Paul would refer to him as a Jew later on, even after he was a Christian, to appeal to Jewish culture. There's nothing wrong with saying

I'm an Idahoan and you're from Tennessee. There's nothing wrong with saying that. All right. But the same thing when it comes to nationalism.

If you're trying to take God's law and just dump it on people. You can't expect the unbeliever to keep the law of God.

But listen to this, though, like, follow me on this. OK, first of all, and just because there were several things they should.

There were several things that were just put forth. So, first of all, I think you were responding to comments when you're talking about postmill again.

Yes, I am. I am a pessimistic all millennialist that's promoting Christian nationalism.

I don't know if Christ is coming today or tomorrow, but I'm still going to plant the tree because I think it's the right thing to do.

Absolutely. And in response to what Haps said, I think Haps, you made an excellent point for why Christian nationalism should be a thing.

You said it was against the law to feed the homeless. Yet, would you still feed the homeless,

Haps? Yeah. So that would be the immediate fix to that unlawful law.

But would you be willing to stand before the government and tell them this is wrong? Absolutely. That is

Christian nationalism. And we told you that we would be Christian nationalism. Wait a second. Hold on.

You didn't hear what I said, though. I said the biggest pushback against Christians doing that was other

Christians because they have a different form of Christianity. Right. So there are

Christians that would say not to evangelize. Do we still do evangelism? Yes, absolutely. And I want to go back to even what

Jeff said on that. Jeff, you go out and preach the gospel. Out of the thousands upon thousands of conversations you've had, how many people have actually come to know

Christ? And I'm not saying I need to know the details, but probably a small... Very few.

But you still do it because it glorifies God. Absolutely. But you still do it because it glorifies

God. Well, you don't know if you're planting a seed or watering a seed. Now, how many of those thousands that I've preached to have become

Christian? Amen. So even when you say that you don't see how our nation can ever become a

Christian nation, I'm saying just like I can't say when I go out and preach the gospel,

I know people are going to come to know Christ. I still do it because it glorifies God. I think promoting lawful laws that are in the general equity of God's law is a good thing.

That's Christian nationalism. We're on the same page. You're a Christian nationalist then, bro. Do we need to rewind this?

Because I said that no one is a bigger Christian nationalist than me. All I'm saying is you first started out by calling me a

Presbyterian, and I've been on fire since then. People who have been listening from the beginning, did I not say there's not a

Christian nationalist bigger than me? The problem is I do not see any scenario that our nation is going to become

Christian. But just because you don't see it, you shouldn't not promote it, though. And I agree.

You need to be preaching the gospel. I don't think no one promotes it more than me. But here's the difference.

I don't need that tagline hooked to me that separates me from other Christians. All I should be able to say is

I am a Christian. My denomination is Reformed Baptist. By me saying

Reformed Baptist, you should know what I promote. I don't need to say

I'm a Christian, a Reformed Baptist, a theonomist, a Christian nationalist. I don't need all these little things that separate me from everybody else.

We live in a culture, though, that wants to try to steal terms.

Have you ever ran into a Christian that says, I believe abortion is okay? I have.

Yeah, I have. And do you call them to repentance? That's Christian nationalism right there. All I'm getting at with that is—

Hold on, hold on. I got to say this. I got to say this. I think the problem is when

I think of Christian nationalism, I think of moralism. And I think that's what we're trying to do is bring morality to the nation, just like we do at the church.

You got a lot of people that say, well, you know, I'm not robbing people.

I'm not hurting people, you know, and I'm moral and stuff like this. And so we try to bring morality into the laws.

And that always changes every four years. But Haps, this is the issue, though.

All law is moral. All law is moral. All law is teaching immorality in one way or another.

And if we do not have God governing those moral laws, they will be immoral laws.

But how do we get God's law in our capital? Okay, so for us personally, so I think that answer could be a question, or that question could be posed to every nation in the world, and it would be a little bit different on how it would be to take over.

Yeah, because some nations like us have— Today, I think it starts at the city level. I think it would be starting at the city level and then moving the way up to the state level and then the state level up to the federal government.

You mean city to county. No, no, no. So you don't think that it has to be—

City to county, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're not saying that the individuals like our neighbors have to become

Christian in order to vote in these laws? I'm saying – well, okay.

All that is a huge part into it. All I'm saying is in a quick— No, no, no. That is the root.

Okay. That is the root. Do you think an LDS person would have – who is not a

Christian, who needs to be born again, needs to have faith in the one and only God, would promote more moral law than a gay transgender person in government official?

I do. Say that again? So you would be more than happy to vote for a Mormon over a queer of some kind?

Well… I would say yes, and that kills me because I used to be Mormon, dude. So what I'm trying to say is it's not—

I mean because I know how Mormons break God's law too, right?

Absolutely. They take God's law the same way as the Jews did. So the long -term solution—

Legalistic system. Yeah, so I will say it again. The long -term solution is the gospel. The short -term that stopped the intruder from entering the house in every nation is

God's law. That is it. And that's what I'm trying to say in that.

If we want to stop states and cities in making laws where abortion is always acceptable, whether it's the day of conception all the way until the day prior to the birth, the only way that that gets stopped is through preaching law to them and saying this is wrong.

Again, I want to say that I am not a

Christian nationalist. You said you're a Christian in the nation. No, no, no, no, no. You just said you were! No, no.

You're confusing me. Words matter, Jeff. Words matter. We win the debate.

Stop right now. You said you're a Christian nationalist. No, no, no, no, no. I said that I'm a realist.

I want to be. I go out and try to win the nations to Christ.

But I also understand that my city is not built by man.

I am a pilgrim passing through. In the same way that I go out and I witness, knowing, knowing, okay, listen,

I've been in my neighborhood for three years now preaching.

I've had my church signs. Not one person that I've witnessed to has come to our church.

All right. Okay. I'm in hopes that a byproduct of me out there that our church is going to grow.

But if it never grows, I'm still going to be out there preaching. All right. And so I want to be a

Christian nationalist. In my heart, I am. But I also have this right here, my thinker. Right.

And I know it's never going to happen. And I know that because I know Christians, they will not get off the pews.

But that's taking like a hyper Calvinist view when it comes to law that they use in evangelism.

What you just said is I go and preach the gospel, knowing that people won't come to Christ. No, no, no.

I didn't say that. I didn't say that. Okay. What you were insinuating is that you preach the gospel because it glorifies

Christ. I've seen people come to Christ. Absolutely. But you know that there's many that don't. Yeah. Exactly.

There's always a remnant. There's always a remnant. Yes. I don't believe we're going to see a mass conversion until we see persecution.

I believe once the church is persecuted, then we'll see a great awakening take place.

But the church is not going to be persecuted because it's too busy sitting on its hands while it's in the pews.

They're comfortable in the church. They will not take the message outside the church. I've been dealing with this for years.

I take it outside the church. There's a lot that I want to say on that, but go ahead, Rick. Just to push back a little bit on the idea that when there's revival, there's always persecution.

The first great awakening in the United States, what would you say would be the persecution that followed that after Jonathan Edwards?

Well, I haven't dug too much into the history of it. Say that again?

I don't think there was an increase in persecution after the first great awakening.

A revival comes before a great awakening.

There is no great awakening without a revival. You see what I'm saying? A revival, again,

I think it starts in the pulpit. It starts in the pulpit. It hits the people in the pews.

It goes to the homes, and then it goes to the neighbors. What's taking place right now,

I do believe there's strong preaching in a lot of pulpits, and it's not getting into the homes.

If it's reaching the homes, it's not getting to the neighbors. In order for a fire to spread, it has to breathe, and it has to be shrubbery for it to catch onto.

And I can sit up there and preach fire all day long. If the

Christian is not going to say, you know what, I'm going to be obedient and do what the

Bible tells me to do, there is no revival. There is no revival.

And if there's no revival, that's Christians being obedient, then there will not be a great awakening.

And so I think the persecution right now is happening in our pews because Christians are not being obedient to fulfill the

Great Commission. And right now, we are under, I am under, you are under a persecution because our nation is cursed because Christians have not been obedient to the

Great Commission. So if Christians had been obedient to the Great Commission, and so are just those that came before us in America going back to,

I don't know, however far you want to go back, 100, 150 years. If they'd been faithful, the churches had been faithful in proclaiming the gospel and living obedient to the

Word and being faithful Christians and discipling their children and their neighbors, would we today be having persecution?

Yes and no. There would be a larger amount of Christians, and we would still be facing persecution of some type.

I don't think that, but the reason why I don't think that the majority of the churches is feeling persecution like us as ministers, right, is because they're not taking it on the streets.

Again, I've had people fight with me, throw drinks at me, try to set me on fire, throw stuff at me, spit at me, punch at me.

You know, like this is minute to what Paul faced. No one has ever stoned me, but I do believe if they had the chance, they probably would.

I'd like to just say just a couple things real fast.

I have found more persecution coming from professing believers in Christ, not only in law enforcement, not only in the courts or anything.

I mean, I'm really just trying to, I mean, look at this, you know, like reasonably and everything.

And, you know, again, we're talking about Christian nationalism and the laws.

And when I look at the laws, you take one law away, you take all our laws away.

It's like I was telling our brothers down, getting back to what I was saying, down with all these big

Christian movements down in Southern California that believed in post -millennialism, a form of it, not the

Reformed Baptist part or the Presbyterian. I'm not talking about that. It was more

Methodist. A lot of Methodists are post -mill, by the way. And they were all on board in the name of Jesus Christ to get all the

Christians off the streets. And so what happened, what did they do?

The Christians went to other Christians that were in higher offices.

This is how humans are, man. But they went to other

Christians and they petitioned to get all these people off the streets. So what happened? They took the rights of the homeless away.

All right. Now, and what I told them is if you take one of their rights away, our rights are next.

And then it happened. It was called 2020. All right.

And again, we rebelled against the 2020. We're not going to let our government tell us to do something that God has told us, tell us not to do.

Again, that's not Christian. That's not Christian. Dude, you are reading into things.

We are to be biblical. Jeff, I just got to say, words mean everything. But listen, all you're doing is you're building up bridges that's going to keep

Christians from loving one another. We don't need all these titles.

That was harsh words. We don't need all these titles. That is a lie. We don't need titles, yep.

Right now, I can at least think of 20. Listen, I got almost 5 ,000 friends on my list. I can at least think of 20 people that I can click on their profile right now, and it's going to say their name, that they're a

Christian, that they're reformed, that they're not theonomic, they're Christian national. They got all these labels.

Time out. And it makes me sick. Time out. You guys stand up right now and let me see your shirts.

Is there anything that says on them 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith? Because I know y 'all wear it.

I know y 'all wear it. Not true. Okay. I know you like titles.

Let's rewind it. Earlier I said all I should have to say is that I'm a

Christian, and my denomination is a Reformed Baptist. All right? The Reformed Baptist, 1689.

Titles and terms. No, no, no. Hold on, hold on. But I said that earlier before I said this. Yeah. By me saying

I'm a Reformed Baptist, you should know that I hold a general equity. It's in our confession. You should know my feeling for God's law.

I should not have to put on my Facebook that I'm theonomic and I'm a Christian nationalist. I want my nation to be

Christian. It's just not going to happen because Christians. Yep.

I want people in my nation to become Christians. So why do we have some titles?

It's to help elevate what our core unique particular beliefs are and things.

That's exactly what you just said. When I said I'm a Reformed Baptist, you already should know. You already should know.

I should not have to build bridges. I should not have to build my faith. Exactly. So just like what Haps just said, there were

Christians that said we shouldn't do X, Y, or Z things when that obviously is wrong according to God's word.

We then have to show, okay, when I say I'm a Christian, I'm actually promoting these type of definitions, and that's what we're trying to do.

So listen, when I'm saying Christian nationalism, what I'm saying is if this

Lord's Day, this Lord's Day, your city, your government of whatever kind you want to talk about was going to make a law where it was legal for them to kill a baby when it was born if the lady wanted to have an abortion post at any point.

But let's just say that law was going to go into effect on Sunday. I hope that you would do what the Presbyterian revolt did that we got a whole nation out of was the pastor said, this is wrong.

I would. See you in the war, and they walked out first. So I agree. These things change from the pulpit.

And so just like that, if they're wanting to kill the baby in the womb, I think as the pastors, we should say, follow me to the war.

You walk on out. Follow me to the government officials because we need to tell them this is wrong. That's Christian nationalism.

But when I say Christian nationalism, I'm saying that's the definitions and titles that I hope people start to expect to see.

I don't want them to see. Oh, this is some. There is no one Christian nationalism. There is no one

Christian nationalism. So would you agree that there's no one Christian either, though? Well, there is those that are in Christ.

But for the world, for people looking in, it's like, well, yeah, but it's not about what the people are looking in.

It's not about what the people are looking in. That's different denominations, except for the Catholic part of it.

That's different denominations, right? Hey, the Catholics. A Christian is someone who is in Christ.

All right. Right. Is there a one sentence that everyone would agree when it comes to Christian nationalism?

Because some people, when they say Christian nationalism, they got the Trump flag and the let's go Brandon or whatever.

Yeah. Don't say that. That's messed up. But even when somebody says I'm a Christian, you still there's

Mormons that say I'm a Christian and their definition of Christian. They meet that definition. There's secular people that would say

Mormons are Christian because they should Christian. I know. But should we? That's the whole point. Definitions aren't wrong.

It's that we have to clearly define those things. And if somebody is misrepresenting them, then we have to redefine them.

We shouldn't just say I'm a Christian. Be right. No, but y 'all are

Christian nationalists. It's OK. It's fair. I am. Listen, maybe in heart, but not by name.

I do not take that title. So then when it comes to a political stance in the

Christian, I am. What would you say that you are Christian about my political political stance?

Yeah. If I said as a Christian, what would you say in a term of a language would you want to promote in the world?

Because in my opinion, that's a dichotomy. It's either Christian nationalism or secular paganism. No, it's not either.

It's not because I did again. Pagan nationalism. Are you a pagan nationalist or a

Christian nationalist? Because I said it in the beginning. So so so I want to be a realist with what

I want and what, you know, again, ask anyone at my church. That's my wife. I am a dreamer.

I'm a shaker and a mover. I make things happen through the power of God.

Right. God has given me a vision and I have a vision and I move toward these things.

Like I scare the crap out of people because I'm always I'm a shaker and a mover. I've been doing what

I've been doing for quite a while now, and it's not going to happen because of Christians.

We will, for the most part, do not fulfill the Great Commission. We are not being obedient to what

Christ has told us to do. But you still do it. That's my point. I still still do it.

And so I'm going to be even if you don't think our nation will go with me. Still, I will follow.

Amen. Amen. Even if our nation will never become truly Christian like what it used to be, even.

I hope you still go and try to make it like that. I know, but that's the whole point as an amillennialist. I know, but what

I've been saying is this is we're talking about things that we're nowhere near and what we need.

Instead of talking about, well, I wonder what, you know, church state

Nashville is going to be. I wonder what church state that this is going to be. That's been a part of the conversation.

But that's not what we're here for. I know what I'm saying is this is we cannot get there until we get to the pulpit.

From the pulpit to the pew, from the pew to the home, from the home to its neighbor. And I'm telling you, it's not happening.

It has not been happening. But you still promote it happening, though. I do. That's my whole point. No, no, no, no.

I don't promote it happening because if I were to promote it happening, I would say that it's happening. I call people to fulfill the great commission.

That is a promotion of wanting that to happen. It's not saying that it is happening. I agree. I do want it to happen.

And as I said earlier, no one wants it more than me. I want it to be a postmill or an optimistic amill view of things.

I don't think it's going to happen, but I still preach the gospel in a way that I think it's going to happen. Even though I don't think it is, according to the scripture.

But I still seek it. I think that's, like, truly, like, that's where, when we sit and, like,

I've watched so many videos on Christian nationalism. And they're always going to the farthest schism within that group and saying, this is what all

Christians. No, no. Christian nationalism is just in its core. The majority of people that are promoting it are wanting

God's transcendent law to be applied throughout all government systems. To stop evil and to promote good.

Claude just said, Claude said, the Jewish zealots were the Christian nationalists of their day.

But that, I think that's looking at the schism of things. Look, I think, I think Daniel in the book of Daniel was a

Christian nationalist. So I could push back and say, I think that Daniel was a Christian nationalist while in Babylon. That was

Christian nationalism. That's the schism. That's the people that are far out there that are saying X, Y, or Z things that no one would want to associate themselves.

And we all know this, right? As Reformed Baptists, we all know there's people that claim the title of Reformed Baptists that we don't want to associate with.

Because we're like, that's not. Nope. That's the schism. That's the far, far right.

Far, far left. The deep down in the deep end that I would not say I want to be associated with in definitions.

That's when we say Jewish people were the zealots. No, they weren't. They rejected the Messiah. They were not using

God's law. They were not. The zealots were not within the Christian nationalism common definitions.

Eric Yeager just said, don't we just call that Kuyperianism? I hope I said that right, brother.

For me. Go ahead. One of y 'all want to answer that? Eric Yeager.

This is Dr. White's son -in -law. And Eric, I would love to have you on the show one day, brother.

And maybe we can have a good conversation. As you can see, we yell at each other.

I still love you guys, though. Oh, yeah, we do. What were you going to say, Rick? I'm looking up what even that word means, to be honest with you.

I don't even know what it means. For me, I don't care about – I didn't choose the Christian nationalist label.

A couple years ago, I was like, no. I didn't even know what Christian nationalist – I hadn't heard anybody promoting it.

And it kind of – this liberal attack came.

And basically, what it ends up meaning is anybody that wants any sort of Christianity to play a role in politics, you're labeled a

Christian nationalist. Even our new Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, people are going nuts that he's a

Christian nationalist because he wants to pray before they go out and do their sessions or whatever. And so if you want to identify yourself as a

Christian nationalist, I don't care. But I think the biggest thing is not to be pushing back against people that are taking that label and running with it.

I have no problem with people that want to take labels. But at the same time, whenever I go to their

Facebook, and their description is all about their labels, in my stomach, it just turns.

You see what I'm saying? Yeah, but Christian is a label that they didn't necessarily give themselves.

They were followers of the way, and then they were called Christians. Yeah, so it'll say

Christian. It'll name off 10 things that they are that differentiates them from everyone else.

And I just don't like that. Jesus said that we will be known by our love for one another.

And I think the more labels we build, the more we're pushing people away. I mean, of course, and I hope y 'all know this.

I know I've been yelling at everybody. I'm just passionate. But like Brayden, me and Brayden yell at each other constantly.

Brayden, do I love you? I don't know. Come on, man. You can call me Presbyterian Light, and it's messed up.

Of course you do. You're dedicating your children. Yeah, because I'm a Reformed Baptist, bro.

Okay, so this gives me something. A title. So in a Presbyterian government sense, as we've seen in the past, like if a state was

Presbyterian, they would baptize their children. This was a way for them to know to set their children apart as Christian of a nation.

So if a nation is Baptist, would that mean that we have to dedicate our children?

Absolutely. Y 'all get on my nerves.

And we're going to be, instead of Anabaptists, we're going to be Anadedicationists. Yeah. We're going to start rededicating people, even if you're old.

That's going to be awesome. But my point is, is y 'all know that I love you, right? Yeah. If y 'all needed something from me,

I'm there. Doesn't matter our disagreement, right? But it's not like that across the board with people.

And the world is supposed to know us by our love for one another. And they don't know us for that.

And to add to my other reason, that's another reason I do not see it happening.

We have to do better. We have to do better. Can I say something? Please. When I think of Christian nationalism,

I think of moralism. I mean, I keep saying that over and over again. That somehow, we're going to bring morality into a fallen world.

And it's just not happening. We're all mill, like we say we are. We see a steady decline going down, not up.

All right? So all these things that are happening and have been happening for the last 2 ,000 years, over and over and over and over and over again, highs and lows, like Rick said earlier.

We have highs and lows and everything. And that's just what it is.

But when I think of Christian nationalism, I think of Trump supporters.

I mean, just straight up. That's the schism of this. That's what I'm trying to say.

We cannot go to the extremes to falsely build up a straw man in our mind to characterize of somebody.

So then you got to the point. I voted for Trump. But I wouldn't say I'm, like, he's going out.

Like, that's, like, perhaps I would go back to this. Does not

Jeff, when he's preaching from the pulpit and telling people to repent and believe in the gospel, is he not promoting moralism in the sense of trying to teach morality?

Within the church. Within the church. I'm telling Christians who say they believe in Christ to live as if to live as their profession.

Yes. So even in your household, Jeff, do you have morality even for unbelievers that are potentially living in your house?

Well, that's what I was trying to tell you earlier, right? Right. So hold on, because you cut me off earlier.

You guys both cut me off. I've been trying to stick this out for a while. All right, go ahead. I'll come back to it.

Remind me. So what I'm trying to say is, all right, is we keep expecting a fallen world to live by God's law and God's rule and God's reign.

And they're just not going to do it. If we in the church won't do it, why do we think that people outside of the church will?

And that's just a simple fact. If we're not following love God and love neighbor, how are we going to expect to implement any law within the

United States to do that? If we the church, we the believers in Christ can't do that.

I mean, that's just that's just the reality of it. That's just a simple fact of it. That it's just it's just not going to happen.

It's just like we can when we preach Christ and him crucified out on the street, it's to a fallen world so that they can get saved and be being drawn out of the world.

We are not of this world. We're you know, we're we're drawn out of the world, you know, and into into the bride of Christ.

And then, yeah. Should we have Christians at Taco Bell? Well, yeah, of course we should have

Christians at Taco Bell. Should we have Christians working at at any any place?

Yeah. To share the gospel of Jesus Christ, you know, and that's in.

But is there rules within Taco Bell? You have a dress code. You have this. You have that. You know, there's their health codes.

And so, yeah, of course, you know, just like in local, state and federal law, you know, there's a lot of good laws and bad laws.

These laws change every time. What people don't understand when it comes to law in the United States or right, especially here in the

United States, that anything you pass, any law that you pass looks Christian, feels

Christian. I mean, hey, but it has seven other laws that pass with it that aren't. And that's a fact.

You know, like I can tell you down in Arizona. Hey, they what they wanted to do down there is they wanted to make a law saying that if you rent an apartment building.

I mean, you rent an apartment from, you know, a manager or whatever, and something breaks.

All right. They have to pay for it because before it was no, you have to pay for it.

Then they'll reimburse you. All right. And so everybody was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's pass that law where the managers, the owners have to pay for it.

And not us. Well, yeah. Isn't that that's loving neighbors? And that's that's doing the right thing.

Well, the seven laws that came with it was if we let that law pass, then that the police department doesn't have to go through the manager to come into your house.

And somebody stopped it right away. Right. So so when we talk about these Christian laws and everything like that, if you don't know how how the

United States works and I'm just taking the United States, you have one law that has all these other laws that come with it.

All right. And they have nothing to do with morality. It has nothing to do with any of that. That's all

I had to say. All laws, though, are moral, though. Well, some form of morality. So it sounds like that all laws are.

Well, they're enforcing some sort of morality, whether it's actually true. So so don't be the homeless is moral.

Yeah, that's someone's morality. It's it's wrong. But it's someone. Yeah. It's a wrong morality.

Yeah. Yeah. So so so real quick for those we're getting a lot of questions.

There's no way for us to answer all these questions. I wish we could.

We're at an hour and 30 minutes now. We're going to try to stop it at two hours. Let me address what

I was talking about earlier. Yeah. I mean, if you want to do this again next week, we can. So so concerning next week, concerning what's going on.

Oh, yeah. Thanksgiving. My bad. Yes. So we are doing it right. Whatever. So concerning the law, my house.

Right. And I mentioned earlier that I have a law. No running. Right. And if they if my children take off running in one sense, they're sinning against me because I had

I had I had that law. Watch. Sin is lawlessness. It's breaking God's law.

Right. And so and so I have certain laws in my house that I have them to do.

All right. So concerning the 10 words that the decalogue, you know, like Eric mentioned earlier about murder.

Like this goes all the way to the Noahic covenant. Like if you shed man's blood, your blood should be shed.

Right. I believe that a hundred percent are our justice system should reflect that the rest of the you know, you shall not commit adultery.

Absolutely. But what's the punishment for adultery? Like these are things that we have to look into when you're talking about establishing the 10 words, which that's what you're talking about promoting.

So whenever you get into the general equity of that, what's the punishment for adultery?

Because in the old covenant, it was to be stoned to death. Are we going to advocate for that in America?

And secondly, concerning the first table of that law, we cannot force man to believe in Jesus Christ.

First John chapter three tells us how we keep the God's law.

So, so first John chapter two, beginning of verse three tells us this is, this is how we know that we have come to know

God. If we keep his commandments, whoever says that, I know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar.

And the truth is not in him. Chapter three, verse 23 says this, and this is his commandments that we believe in the name of the son,

Jesus Christ and love our neighbor as ourselves. That fulfills the two deck laws.

We, we love God with all of our heart, with all of our soul, with all of our strength and with all of our mind, how

I believe in Jesus Christ in order for our nation. So, so, so if we establish the 10 words in our nations, we have to make everyone believe.

And that's not gospel. I do agree that the second, this whole loving our neighbor, we should look at that and do general equity, but I'm not,

I am not for a one for one when it comes to mosaic covenant, because I believe the new

Testament exempts that Jeff, you and I are this close together.

You and I are this close together because you already know, I'm not a one for one. You want to take the title. I don't want the title, which

I'm okay with the title. Just like I would take a title of a reformed Baptist and all millennial list and a cessationist and all those things.

If the onomist means the 10 commandments, then yes,

I will. That's what I'm saying. You don't have to say the word. All you have to do is say you're reformed, but that's a title though.

Jeff, like, look, there, there's like a thousand things. I want to respond. I don't have to have all these things.

There's a thousand things I want to respond to on that. So I know the, the reason that God said that you could not commit adultery in the old testament with the judicial law that was meant for the nation of Israel.

This is a nationality law. That's according to the confession of judicial law. It was with the specific purpose to bring about the

Christ. You and I agree that Galatians three says that that law was fulfilled and it was until the crisis come. What would we see in the new covenant?

The new covenant talks about how we have a certain permissible acts of divorce. And one of those things are adultery in every household that let's say there's a man and a woman that fall into adultery in every household.

They have a responsibility to find out the morality in that sense, if they are going to seek divorce or not, that's in the household.

When we then go to the government system, we used to promote as a nation, a divorce system that was had to be, have evidence of adultery or something along those lines.

That was a very Christian perspective. So then, so when we talk about morality and I go back to what

Hap said, we then said that as a nation, we're going to do no fault divorce.

That's teaching a morality that we don't need to actually a hold. So Christian nationalism would say that it's marriage is a very good thing.

And it should be between a man and a woman and that adultery is wrong. That's Bible.

That's Bible. Right. All right. But you don't have to say Christian. But you and I know when we're talking, you're going to be labeled a

Christian nationalist. I don't care what people call me. I'll care. Just identifying as a Christian nationalist.

Then you get the demoniacs. Hey, let me answer Eric real quick,

Eric. So he mentioned, he said, people keep commenting in my screen.

He said, you won't have time to get to this today, but Leviticus 20, we see pagan nations expelled and for violating not only the second table, but the first table as well.

Second and third commandment. Is there an application for that today? And I, and to that,

I just alluded to it earlier. First John chapter three, beginning of verse 23, tells us how we fulfill the first table.

And that is by believing in Jesus Christ. When someone dies, they are going to be judged for not believing in Jesus Christ.

You and I, however, cannot make people believe. We are to call them, we preach the gospel, call them to faith and repentance.

That's what we are to do. But we cannot make them believe, nor can we punish them for believing.

But can the government encourage that belief and discourage belief contrary to that?

I think that it should, that are. So again, this is me and La La Land dreaming, right?

That that I think that are that if we had a Christian leaders, that it should encourage that.

But I don't think that they should be able to punish people for not. I do think they should be able to punish people for murder.

Right. How do you punish somebody for telling a lie? Like, is there going to be a lie?

Yeah. Right. If I lie to my kids, I won't get in trouble. If I lie to my wife, I sleep on the couch.

If I lie to a cop, you know, you see what I'm saying? Like, you know, I say we cut off liar's fingers.

It depends on the realm of the authority where they're lying. You're lying in church doing something and there's going to be church discipline.

You're lying in your family. There's going to be discipline from. And again, I would argue that at the time of Christ, God himself put it into the

Jewish penal code. Rome had taken over Christ, taken over Jerusalem.

So the Jews were no longer allowed to carry out punishment on their own penal code because they were under the

Roman rule of the Pax Romanis. All right. And they're they're forgiven.

I mean, they're atonement for seeing the sacrificial system was done away with because we see that the baptism replaces the forgiveness of sins.

Mark chapter one. John baptized. Let me go there real quick.

Mark chapter one. I think it's verse three or verse four. It says John the

Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

So at this time, what was for the forgiveness of sins? The sacrificial system. What is that Christian baptism represent?

The death, burial and resurrection, which was for the forgiveness of sins. God himself put an end to the

Jewish penal code and the Jewish sacrificial system through the new covenant.

And all I see a bunch of Christians doing is they're trying to reestablish what God has done away with and replant it now.

I'm not saying you, Brayden. I know, I know, I know. But I'm just saying I don't I don't I see that in some post -meal camps.

I think that that's the schism of this conversation. I don't think that that's the core of what's going on. Galatians three tells us that it ended with Christ.

Moses ended with Christ. Moses ended with Christ. I would debate that with anybody.

I would be there on your side debating that with you, dude. Like the reason, though, the reason why in the nation of Israel, we're talking about nationality right now.

This is so pertinent to the conversation. This is actually where I was going to go in the confession is chapter 19 of Israel, of the law of God, when it talks about the judicial and the ceremonial law that was given to Israel.

I recently wrote a paper with my seminary that made reference to this, that the law that was given to Israel, namely the judicial and ceremonial, was efficaciously a moral good thing for them because it stemmed from the transcendent law of God, the

Ten Commandments. That could mean it was efficaciously towards them and not the entire world because it was for that nation.

What I'm saying today is if a nation in the United States, if a nation in Mexico, if a nation in Canada, if a nation in Africa took their morals and their culture and their laws and their things that they promote and they receive it efficaciously, the power of what is right and wrong is from the

Ten Commandments and those laws would look very drastically different throughout the world, but they would all still be in some sense right and just because it's receiving its power from the

Ten Commandments. So I'm saying that Christian nationalism, in the definition that I have given for it, is not only suitable within our confession, but is actually promoted within our confession because one place

I wanted to read from was of the civil magistrates. Mark, before you read that, I want to ask you one question and then you can read it and you can answer and read it and I won't interrupt.

Go ahead. As Baptists, right? I mean, because I don't believe that Brandon on here has been paying attention to anything that we're saying and I love you,

Brandon, but you keep asking questions. It's kind of like you don't even understand what we're saying, brother. As Baptists, we don't know who are

Christians, right? We take people on the profession of their faith. What if this whole dreamland scenario takes place, right?

And I think it would be great. I said it in the very beginning. Go back and listen. For God's law to rule our nation.

But what if someone who we believe is a Christian is only a

Christian by profession and not by possession and he misuses God's law?

That's the problem that I'm talking about when I was talking about that movie, The Book of Eli. That one guy was chasing after Denzel Washington because he knew this moment that he got a hold of that book.

He could use that book to control his people. And you put the law of God, which is good, holy, and righteous in the hands of the wrong person.

And it can be used for evil. That's why this place is not my home.

I'm a pilgrim passing through. Go ahead. But I agree with you on that.

We're a pilgrim passing through. And you said that they could still do things that are evil. And I say, yes, they could.

What would be the Christian's response to that? That is evil because God's standard says it so.

But if he's in power. You also said earlier. Persecution. You also said earlier that you would rather vote for a

Mormon over a queer, right? Over somebody that is in sexual immorality.

So we know that the Mormon is going to go do unjust things. But what is the lesser of the two evils that would earn our vote?

The Mormon. The Mormon. Absolutely. Right. So there's still even if there was a professor of faith in Christ, but not a possessor of faith in Christ, I would still rather vote for them over a person that is just sexually.

I agree. I agree. Right. I mean, as a pastor of a church, we accept people into our membership, and we allow them to vote on the profession of their faith.

Yep. Exactly. And so like all that being said, that still doesn't undermine the argument of saying like in law, in government,

I still think it should be governed by God's Ten Commandments in some way or another. And I think that looks different from nation to nation and culture and culture.

And I don't think that we should take away those borders and try to mix the people in that sense of mixed laws and all that kind of stuff.

And there's just going to be one law that rules everyone. I'm saying that it's the Ten Commandments that rules the individual culture laws.

Read what she was going to read. We got 15 minutes. So the civil government chapter, it's chapter 24.

It's paragraph one. God, the Supreme Lord and King of the world has ordained civil authorities to be under him and over the people for his own glory and the public good.

I would want to pause and ask what is good? What is public good according to God's word?

What chapter did you say? I'm sorry. 24. And I'll keep on. I'll just finish reading this paragraph. It says for this purpose, he has armed them with the power of the sword to defend and encourage those who do good and to punish evil doers.

And so the question is, by what standard that's going to be the question throughout this whole thing, what standard is good and what standard is evil, even according to our own confession.

Yeah. But in Romans 13, because this is what this is taking it from. Yes, it is. All right. Now, Paul said this during a time of whose reign?

Bad, bad times. All right. Now was God still King over them? All right.

That's what I'm saying. Nothing's outside of God's sovereign plan. We're living in his story.

And when we die and we stand in glory, we won't see how it can be written any other way. Right. And that's, that is my stance as a

Christian nationalist as well as what you just said. But regardless though, paragraph two Christians may laugh.

So actually paragraph three. Sorry. Paragraph two is more about the Christian and political power, which I would encourage. But paragraph three,

I think talks about this because civil authorities are established by God for the purpose stated. We should submit to them in everything lawfully that they require.

So if Rome did something that was lawfully required, which is according to what is good and punishing that which is evil, we should submit to them.

But if it is not promoting good according to God's law, and it is actually promoting and not punishing the evil, we ought not to submit to them.

And that's where the pastor ought to be, have his six shooter and his musket underneath his preaching robe and ready to go to the streets.

That is the black robe regiment. That is the Presbyterian revolt upon which we are so blessed to even have the discussion to talk about the differences between Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians in the

United States. That is a good thing. Like that is not a bad thing. That is a absolute good thing. Tremendous persecution brought about a great thing that we have today.

And that was a Christian nationalist stance in that day. But it could get there again in the hands of Rome people.

And if it does, again, it's God's story. Yes, it is. And it was talking earlier today about,

I mean, earlier today, right? It's only been, it hasn't been long, right? Like Danielle on here, she's been commenting a lot.

And you could ask Danielle. I met her by street preaching.

Cool. And I have been on these streets for three years now. Danielle is the only person that I spoke with who said that they were a

Christian that actually knew the gospel. We're living in a nation where people profess to be

Christians and they don't know the gospel. That's why it has to start with the pulpits. That's why I do not have a lot of faith in our nation becoming

Christians. Because I don't have a lot of faith in our churches becoming Christians. Because the gospel is not being preached.

Right. I still think, though, we should promote it. Like I still think I don't think that undermines the argument. I don't say we should promote the label.

I'm saying that we should put our boots to the ground and get out of the pew and go to the streets and preach

Christ. You don't think it would be a conversation starter. Let's just say you walk into your public square and you're into your grocery store and you hear a conversation taking place between a

Republican and a Democrat who are both promoting morality that is breaking

God's transcendent law of the Ten Commandments. You don't think it would be a conversation starter when they look at you and say, what is your political standing for you to say?

I am a Christian nationalist who actually wants to promote laws that are in line with God's standards.

Like I think that that's only a good title. I think it's being demonized by Christians. I don't think it's a good title because no one knows what it means.

Everyone has a different definition. Because it's been demonized. But that's what we see with Christians.

The exact example that you said about why we shouldn't have Christian nationalists with the Salem witch trial is the exact argument that atheists will use to say that all

Christianity is wrong because, look, it promoted the Salem witch trial. It's demonized, but we still use the title because it's still a good title.

No, I don't see that. I've had atheists say that. I've had atheists say that. You're a Christian. Oh, the

Salem witch trial. It's like, no. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. OK, so let's say all four of us was from a different denomination, and all four of us gave a different definition of Christian, of what a

Christian is. Then there would be a problem. It doesn't matter what the atheist says.

What I'm saying when it comes to Christian nationalism, if all four of us was Christian nationalism from a different denomination, we'd probably all have a different definition of Christian nationalism, and that's the problem.

I'm talking about from within the Christian circle. I'm not looking outside of what the world thinks. The world can just come up in its head and say it's wrong for Christians to comb their hair, and next thing you know, you have a bunch of Christians walking around all nappy -headed.

I don't care what they say. I'm combing my hair. You see what

I'm saying? I don't care what the world outside is saying. My problem is the definition within Christianity.

We can't even come up with a term of agreement. Right or wrong? Give me a mic so I can talk.

I just read from a Christian statement that a lot of Christians love. I just read from at the beginning of the show a statement from Christian nationalists that a lot of Christian nationalists are using as what they would say

Christian nationalism is. So would you be in favor of Christian nationalism now that I just gave you a standardized definition?

So then that just unvalidated your whole… No, no, no, no. No, it doesn't. I did not say that I would agree to that.

I did not say I agree to it. I did not say I agree to it. What is

Christian nationalism? Can you hear the words coming out of my mouth? Words matter,

Jeff. Words matter. Christian nationalism. Christian nationalism. I believe that nations should be

Christian, that they should honor Christ. Do you believe that? I believe that, yes.

I believe that all nations should honor Christ. Every nation. But that doesn't mean that I have to take that nation.

Unfortunately, I do. And there's going to come a time at the second coming of Christ where I believe that the establishment, the inauguration,

I mean the consummation of the new heavens and the new earth, all of earth is going to be worshiping Christ.

Which I would even say is totally different than even that point. It's not going to happen before. What I'm saying is that's a whole different topic, though, because in that time, it's not just a

Christian morality that's promoted. It's actually new hearts believing in Christ and loving him and worshiping him in that sense.

When we're saying a nation is Christian, it's not that they have a new heart. I love Eric. Eric is speaking to my heart right now, and he's talking about the three uses of the law, which is if I say that I'm reformed, then

I owe to the three uses of the law. The first use of the law is what?

A mirror. We use the law to show people their sin. And it also, so we don't think that we're too good for our own britches, it shows us as Christians that we're still sinners.

We're living in the saint and sinner reality. Second use of the law, the government is to use the law as a curb.

But like a curb, a car can jump the curb and hit people. Right. Our government is to use the law of God.

Let's say murder. Right. Let's say if I commit murder in my nation,

I get 75 years in prison. I should be able to wake up. And if I'm angry enough to commit murder, know that if I do so,

I'll spend 75 years in prison. And that threat of prison should keep me from committing murder.

But just like that car can jump the curb and hit people, that that threat might not scare me and I can go out and commit murder.

And next thing you know, I spend 75 years in prison. Third use of the law is for the Christian.

As we study the scriptures, we use the law as a flashlight to understand how to live for God.

That's not for the unbeliever. That's for you and I. But also, I would add to this.

We have to understand the law and gospel distinction. The law came through Moses. But grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

We do not use the law as the Jews did as a way to to try to earn favor with God to establish our own righteousness.

We understand that Christ kept the law in my place as a substitute. Right. But I am still because I love

Jesus and to love my neighbor as well. I just want to respond to Jake real fast.

We're reading comments from both YouTube and Facebook. We're just we're just seeing too many of them.

And so it's only like one that we're grabbing. I hope everybody's having a good time. This is wonderful.

I'm so thankful that you're using Christian nationalist language. No, it's and and I will.

OK, I'm going to pull your card right now. I'm pulling your Baptist card because that's a title. I'm pulling your Reformed card.

No, no, no, no. At the very beginning, I said that we should be able to say that we're Christians and we should be able to announce our denominations.

I'm pulling your Cessationist. There's different denominations. Is Cessationist a denomination or a theological stance?

It's a theological stance. You can't be. I'm not letting you call yourself a Cessationist anymore. I'm not allowing you.

I'm not allowing you to call yourself. What else can I? A non -millennialist? That's not a denomination. That's a title.

I'm not allowing you to call yourself. If you're Reformed, you should know that I'm a Biblical Cessationist. Look, you came into this conversation saying

I'm a Presbyterian. If I say I'm a Reformed Baptist, you should know that I'm a non -millennialist. I'm pulling all your cards. I'm pulling all your cards.

I'm pulling all of them. By me saying I'm a Reformed Baptist, you should know that I'm not. You can only call yourself a Christian from now on.

You can only call yourself a Christian from now on. Whatever. No, just the way. You're following the way. Yeah, you're just the way.

Christians too much of a title. We took that negative word and said, you know what?

That sounds pretty good. I do want to hear from Rick because I feel like I've interrupted Rick several times now.

I don't remember what I was going to say. What do you want me to say? I don't know. I don't need you to say anything.

I feel like I've interrupted you. I'm all nervous now. I can't say anything. Yeah, I don't know.

Sometimes it is just like Jeff was talking about.

It's going to be a distraction from the gospel when you're out evangelizing. Well, I'm a

Christian nationalist. It can be a distraction. Okay, well, you got to talk about that. But in other contexts, you're already identified as a

Christian nationalist. And you're saying, okay, abortion should be out. You sound like a Christian nationalist. And then you end up getting into, you can say, yeah,

I am. And it needs to be outlawed. Or you can get into a whole argument. No, I'm actually not a Christian nationalist because a

Christian nationalist believes this, this, this. And I don't. I believe this, this. And so there's times.

And so a lot of the time, I mean, just on Twitter, that's where I end up taking on the label.

I don't march around. I don't have it in my bio or anything. But you're labeled just for thinking that righteous laws should be promoted.

You're a Christian nationalist. So you can spend all your time defending why you're not. Or you just take it.

Okay, yeah, whatever. And you need to repent. And so for me, there's a context where it was going to be more of a distraction to try to defend for the label.

And well, actually, I'm not because Christian nationalists believe this. It was just easier just to take it.

And I have no problem. And the added benefit is that the shrieking demoniacs when you just.

Yeah, Christian. America should be a Christian nation. America needs repent and recognize

Christ as Lord. Yep. That's all I got to say.

I mean, again, I agree. I think that I think that everyone should acknowledge that Jesus is

Lord. I think everyone should acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. But I can tell you this is when Jesus returns, every knee will bow.

Yep. All right. And all the nations will praise him. All the nations will praise him again.

Nations. Nations. Nations. Yeah. But this is not our. This is when. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

This is when Christ returns. When Christ. But there's nations that are

Christian. What? No. There's nations that are

Christian. Whenever Christ returns, the whole earth will be Christian. All the nations.

Yeah. When Christ returns. Sweet. Not until. I'm an all millennialist.

I'm a Reformed Baptist. That means. You can't use those titles. I took those away from you,

Jeff. You can't take nothing away from me with those small hands. Where are you grabbing at? I'm using both of them.

Don't worry. I'm carrying them both. I'm an all millennialist. Right.

When Christ returns, everything's going to be swallowed up in victory. Right. Yep.

That's what I'm looking forward to. In the meantime, I'm trying to be obedient to what the

Bible says. When I see something in the scriptures and it tells me to obey it.

I do my best to obey it. I start with the little things. And that way, when

I get to the big things, it's not so heavy. Right. Well, you know, where first Corinthians says that a man should not cover his head.

I don't wear a hat in church. Now, if you do, that's fine. If you do, that's fine.

I'm just talking about for me. I don't wear a hat in church. Why? Because it says to uncover your head.

All right. I don't wear a hat in church. I see something. I read it.

And I try my best to obey it. It tells me to go out and make disciples. Guess what I do?

I go out on the streets and I preach the gospel. All right. I preach in the pulpit. I counsel with people.

I'm discipling my church. I'm doing my best to obey what the Bible says. But guess what

I'm looking for? The second coming of Jesus Christ. Amen. Just like Abraham was.

And what are we supposed to make disciples out of? We are to go into the nations.

Make disciples out of all the nations. Yeah. But who are we to teach? Who are we to teach?

Those that are baptized. That are disciples. The disciples that are baptized is who we teach.

Does it tell us to teach those who are not baptized? Please tell me. What does nation mean?

It's ethnos. It means Gentiles. It means ethnic groups. Yeah. But that's still, as a pilgrim in the world, we are to promote good and want our government to punish evil.

That is fundamental to Christianity and our outlook on how the world should operate.

Well, you know, Rome. Even when we expect wrongdoing to happen, we should want our government to be under what

God has said that governments are to do, which is to promote good and punish evil. Yeah.

Well, Rome had the pockets of Romanus. Yeah. I'm not going to argue with Scripture.

Right? I'm just telling you the Bible tells us to do things that we cannot do. Right? And that would have been my argument with the

Calvinist killer. Right? Well, he tells us to believe, so we should be able to believe. Yeah. It tells you to keep the law of God, and none of us can keep it.

Right? The Bible is so full of telling us things to do stuff that we are unable to do. If Christ had not come and lived the life that we could not live and take upon himself the punishment that we deserve, we would not be with God in eternity.

So using exactly that same argument you just said, the Bible tells us to do things that we are unable to do.

Right. Does the Bible tell the government to promote good and punish evil? It does. Okay.

So do they currently do that? No, they do not. Okay. And are we called to tell them to do so?

Yes, we are. Yes, we are. So that is the key and the core of Christian nationalism in my opinion.

Again, it's not going to happen. And you asked me, well, how do you know? Because I've been dealing with this stuff my whole

Christian walk. The moment I became a Christian, I started to listen to people. Do I think that in the next five years the

United States is going to stop abortion? Do I think that? You can ask me that. I'm going to say I think no. They're going to keep on doing it.

So do I think like, look, what you just said, we do things knowing that. I preach the gospel expecting

Christ to come back to a fallen world. Like I preach the gospel, that which is restorative, to a world that I think will stay fallen until Christ returns.

I still expect a government to punish good or punish evil and promote good, even though I know they won't. Yeah, I expect them to.

But there's a possibility. There is a possibility.

If let's just say back in the days of the

Presbyterian revolt, like I made mention of that time. If every pastor just said it's not going to happen and then didn't actually get up and give a message like that on those

Lord's days, we wouldn't be here having this conversation. I know, but that's not what I'm saying. I know, but I'm just I'm saying that this is what

I'm saying. I'm saying that the Christian should say just in case this tree takes root.

It's the right thing to do regardless. So I'm going to do it. And that's what I'm going to promote. That's that.

Like, I think every Christian ought not only preach the gospel to their neighbors, but I think every Christian should be promoting a government that follows

God's law. Like I think and I'm not just talking to the United States. I'm saying Africa and China.

I'm saying in North Korea where you're going to get your head chopped off. You need to be doing this. I 100 % agree.

Again, I've agreed with all that. My view is reality.

We cannot get our churches Christianized, much less the nations.

Something is missing. And it's obedience from the pews and the pulpit.

There's going to be a lot of Christians in heaven walking around smelling like smoke. It's not going to be good.

That's for dang sure. But that's the whole that's the whole thing. Like even in North Korea right now, I would promote a actual believer in Christ to actually do exactly what

I just said. Push against evil. You will die. Push against it.

Die for Christ. That's what you are called to do. Bear your cross. Don't hide.

Bear your cross. That is the call of the gospel. Bear your cross.

And that comes in many different ways. That comes in North Korea. That comes in South Korea. That comes in America.

Bear your cross. Do the right thing. Glorify God. And the seeds of your blood will be planted and they will promote the gospel itself in doing so.

In North Korea, one of the biggest things right now is preaching the gospel and also calling them in just if they were to do that, you would die.

Am I saying that they should be doing that? Yes, I am. Because the Bible tells them to. Now, the question is, if God was to bring revival to our nation and the

Christian got off of their off of the pew and when it went into their home and to their neighbor.

Would we be willing to do the same? Because I'm telling you right now, and I hope no one from my congregation is watching this right now.

But the greatest thing that could ever happen to my church is while I'm preaching, the cops open the door and take me to prison for preaching and for Pastor Cal to stand up in the pulpit and finish my message.

That's the greatest thing that can happen to my church. Because the next few months afterwards, we'd be having to look for another building to house everybody.

Yep. That's the truth. What happened to Pastor Coates? What happened to Pastor Coates church up in Canada?

Exactly. Injust law that was not fitting within God's 10 commandments was enforced.

And he stood up as a pastor and said, that's not happening. We're going to worship God today. And look what happened.

Again, that is promoting a standard to be held in a government system.

But we cannot make people believe in Jesus Christ.

And that's moral. Would you say that it's moral? Yes, but I cannot make my neighbor not do a lot of things.

Therefore, we cannot establish the 10 commandments. Because the first part of that decalogue is that as well.

I do believe the second part that we need to establish it. But who's going to do the general equity?

That's what I'm afraid of. I don't want people who commit adultery being strapped as an

X to the ground and being stoned. I think that's a lot better though than trans and kids.

So if we had a choice, I'd rather have adulterers stoned than my neighbor's kids being stoned. I think there's a good reason why God put an

N to the penal code. I still think it'd be better than trans and kids.

That was what I was even getting at. If a Mormon got into office and was doing things that I can't say fully amen to, it's still going to be better than the queer that's transgender and kids.

Yeah, I mean, we want to go back to one of the big concerns as well. If we get

Christian nationalism, then the Baptists are going to get drowned again, be persecuted.

I'll tell you what, Presbyterians, I ain't having it, bruh. But worst case scenario that happens, that's more loving to my neighbor that I experience persecution for my

Baptistic beliefs than my neighbor getting their kids trans and mutilated or aborted. Well, I think both are wrong.

Well, they're both wrong, but I'd rather endure persecution and see Christ.

I'll stand up in the pulpit and preach against both. No, then it should be. But I'd rather—one is coming on me, and a lot of the—I don't think that's your position, but a lot of the pushback against Christian nationalists is that from Reformed Baptists, we don't want to be persecuted.

Thank you, Brandon. I appreciate that, brother. I hope it wasn't my muscles that scared you off. Hey, y 'all,

I've really got to get off here. It's been a little over two hours. I thought we were doing this for another two.

No, absolutely not. I've got to finish studying. I've got to be in bed by midnight, so I've got to finish studying.

I'm pulling all your cards. I hope everyone has had a good time with us tonight. If you had a good time, give some likes real quick.

Hit those like buttons, right? Let's represent. If you had a good time, let's see it.

So there's a couple of people like Eric, man, brother, I really appreciate you watching. I'd love to have you on and have a good conversation, but you'd have to be willing—you'd have to be ready to yell at us.

And, again, thank you, everybody, for listening. I'm going to let everyone get their last word. Did we answer a yes or a nay?

A nay or a yay? Did we ever conclude? Because I heard a lot of yays.

So I'm a no for the title. My heart is for the yay, but I'm a no for the title because I'm a realist, right?

Look, I'm not throwing my arms up. I'm giving you an all -male hug from above right now, brother. You have been frozen on the screen for the last 10 minutes.

All I see you doing is holding your chin with your small hands. All right.

Thank you, everybody, for watching. This is my last word. We're going to pass it around. Again, if you're ever in Tallahoma, Tennessee, please come hang out with me.

It'd be a joy to meet you. Shake your hand. Hug your neck. And if you're a postmill, it'd be great to even shake your hand and hug your neck.

I love you all in the Lord. I'm going to pass it to Haps. I just don't care anymore, to be honest.

I'll probably be a postmill next week. Who knows? I flip -flop. I don't know.

I still think that when we see this model over and over and over again, people die and it doesn't work over and over and over and over and over again.

And I can't trust God's law in man's hands.

So that's all I got to say. So, yeah,

I think Christian nationalism is summed up in a few words.

Christian nation, gooder than trans and kids. And so, yeah, if you want to cause trouble on Twitter or X, I'm at my name,

R .I., then Emerson, C .K. is my handle. And then if you're ever in the southern

Idaho, join Brayden and myself and our families at Valley Baptist in Hagerman.

And I think that's all for me. And Brayden, can you say anything, even though your screen's gone? Yeah, I was trying to give you guys all male hugs from above.

Can you guys hear me right now? Yeah. I can't see you, but. Yeah, you know,

I think a lot. Yeah, I'm giving one back right now to you, Jeff. I think it was a good discussion tonight.

I really do. I think that I would just go back to my first analogy that I gave.

I think that Christian nationalism offers an answer that is biblical, that is according to Romans 13, that gave.

He went out on us. Lost you, brother. Thank you.

It was a blessing. Come to Valley Baptist. Follow Open Air Theology.

Join us for our conference in February. God bless. Raptured. Raptured.

All right. Translated. Translated. Yes. See y 'all.