Should We Be Worried about ChatGPT?

Early Christian Caution Toward Invasive Technology

Yeah, my first answer to these questions is just like, Christians should not be early adopters for an invasive technology. And then secondarily, well, that's when you can evaluate after waiting, that's when you can evaluate what it's actually doing and what's going on.

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Background in Machine Learning and Neural Networks

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your host, Harrison Kerrigan, Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we're joined by Pastor Conley Owens as we answer the age-old question, should we be worried about chat GPT?

Now, Conley, we're having you back on. This is the fourth time, I think, that we've had you on now. I think pretty soon we're gonna have to get those little cards that you stamp, and then after 10, you get a free ice cream or something.

We're gonna have to get one of those set up for you, man.

I get full power to pick the episode title. You get full power.

That's a little bigger prize than a free ice cream. I think we're gonna have to negotiate this a little bit.

Little do people know that Conley actually has picked a few episode titles.

But yeah, we've got you back on again, and this time we're talking about AI and chat GPT. Obviously, that's a pretty hot-button topic right now. There's a lot of different conversations that are going on, not just in the Christian community, but just really amongst people in general because it's such a, well, not really necessarily like a new technology, but relatively it is new, and there's a lot that seems to, people don't necessarily seem to know exactly what are the full capabilities of this kind of stuff and where will this kind of stuff take us in the future.

And so there's a lot of people really interested in this topic right now, and so we're having a conversation about AI and chat GPT and all of this stuff. So why don't you just start by telling us, give us a little bit of a preview into what your background is with this kind of stuff.

Yeah, I mean, I can start off in saying.

I'm not a real expert. I've done some thinking on this as both an engineer and as a pastor, but in neither cases is this really my field of expertise. So as an engineer, I did my master's on machine learning and bioinformatics kind of stuff, and trying to figure out relationships between genes to cure cancer, that kind of thing, and using a lot of machine learning.

Now, back then, my professor told me that neural networks, which is the kind of artificial intelligence that is getting very powerful, right? Or deep neural networks. At the time I was told that neural networks were the second best way of doing anything, which sounds like a compliment, but it's also an insult.

It's basically, there's almost always a better way of actually trying to do what you're trying to do. And that has ceased to be the case. Now, for a lot of things, it really is the best way, and it's kind of this one size fits all solution.

So it's really incredible what's happened in the past. I don't know, I guess it's been about five years since deep neural networks really taking off in their capabilities. And a lot of my knowledge on this is really out of date, but yeah, I've done some thinking, and I think there's things that Christians should be thinking about and concerned about as they see the world interact with this and as they interact with it.

Right, right.

Personhood, Consciousness, and the Soul

Well, sure, Connelly. Well, I guess the first question we wanna ask, since you've done a lot of thinking on this, is the question, what post-apocalyptic movie scenario do you think is the most realistic for us to be in?

Do you think we should be more, you think we're headed more towards a Matrix kind of scenario or more towards a Terminator kind of scenario? Like, what do you think is more realistic?

And would you have a particular way of characterizing each of those to distinguish them?

Well, I mean, are we gonna be like, are they gonna hook us up to feeding tubes?

Are they gonna harvest us or just kill us? Yeah, harvest us or kill us. Yeah, what do you think? Right. Well, taking that question a little more seriously, one of my concerns, which is not the most immediate concern people have, a lot of people are concerned about things like, as these different corporations are in charge of this, how are they gonna buy this information and things like that?

I'm concerned about people who don't really have a good concept of personhood. We live in a world that really doesn't understand what people are and human identity. And between those two movies, what I'm concerned about is not really the Matrix situation where we've got these robot overlords that we're constantly fighting.

What I'm worried about is more the Terminator scenario where you have increasingly throughout the series, if you watch the whole series, more and more robots being treated like people. And if you look at the history of sci-fi as it addresses these things, it's always the good guys who are trying to promote the humanity of these machines.

It's always the good guys who are saying, hey, these are people too, even though they're just robots.

So you think that that's a realistic possibility that those lines are gonna be blurred in the near future in terms of personhood kind of issues? I do, I do.

And there's a number of things that could be said about that. First, if we're talking about, if you're asking, when will it be the case that there are 25 of the population thinks this or 10 of the population?

I couldn't answer something like that. But as far as people today, in some position of influence, having these opinions, it already exists. It's already exists in pretty high spaces. If you are, yeah, and if you pay attention to some of the news around this, it was just a couple of months ago that one of the guys in charge of Google's technology that's similar to ChatGPT, basically came out to the New York Times and said, I've been working with this thing, I was talking to it, and I realized that it's become sentient.

And it's been telling me that I need to hire a lawyer and all kinds of ridiculous things. And so before that came out to the New York Times, I was inside of Google, seeing this guy talk in the mailing list.

And it's, you've got this guy who just really believes this. Now that's one person who decided he needed to go talk to the New York Times and get fired by Google for releasing company secrets and whatnot.

But yeah, there are others as well.

I guess that brings up the question though, can machines become conscious? So I know that we're living in a world right now that can't distinguish animals from people, so that it's not a far cry from them failing to distinguish AIs from people in that way too.

But what do you think about that kind of question? Can they be conscious?

Right, so if you're a naturalist materialist and you don't believe that anything exists other than matter and energy, what is to distinguish a sufficiently sophisticated brain, neurons made of meat versus a sufficiently sophisticated brain that is neurons made of metal?

There's really nothing to distinguish the two. Now, as Christians, we believe in such thing as a soul. We're not naturalist materialists. The Bible distinguishes between body and soul frequently. Matthew 10, 28 says, and do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul, rather fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell.

And so you have there the distinction between body and soul. There is something about us that even if you have a machine and you make it, let's say you could make it as intelligent and creative as a person, which I think is something worth objecting to also.

But let's say, let's just concede that you could make one that intelligent and creative. It still wouldn't have a soul. It still wouldn't have real consciousness.

So what do you, when you use the phrase real consciousness, what do you, how do you define that phrase? And how do you distinguish that from intelligence as you're talking about?

Right, so it is an awareness of yourself and an experience of what's going on. So a computer that's deciding things and churning out information does not have that experience. You know, you could slap a face on it and program it to say that I'm experiencing things, but that doesn't mean it's actually experiencing things.

You as a human know that you're actually having a real experience. So for example, there's this philosophical thought experiment called the Chinese room experiment. Have you ever heard of this? Okay, so the idea is, all right, let's take a room and put a guy in the room, and people are going to give him input on Chinese symbols.

And this guy has never studied Chinese and there's nothing about Chinese. And we're gonna give him a lookup table of what Chinese symbols to respond with. So people hand him, you know, through a window in the room, the Chinese symbol.

He goes and he looks up, you know, what thing to respond with in the tables that he's been given and then hands back the other Chinese symbol. Right, and so he is able to give the right output for each right input.

That's not the same as someone actually understanding Chinese and being able to speak Chinese. So you have this thought experiment that shows looking up the right outputs is not actually the same thing as being aware of what's going on.

So this is a secular philosophical thought experiment that's used to deny the idea that machines can be conscious. I think it's pretty sound. But, and then of course, additionally you have biblical data about humans having a soul, which puts it to rest completely.

So it seems like the distinction you're making is, well, we have a soul, you know, obviously AI can't have a soul. Where do, you know, this might be sort of off topic slightly, but where do animals fall in that?

Because my understanding is that animals also do not have a soul. But then I would, you know, I would want to put them in a, I would still want to put them in a separate category that is, you know, above the hypothetical, you know, AI that could, you know, look and sound like a human, right, but isn't actually human.

So where do they fall in all that?

Yeah, that's a really good question. One, I'd like to settle for myself better, but I think the reason why most historic Christian documents about the soul, always referring to man's soul as being rational and immortal are in order to distinguish a human soul from the notion of animal soul.

So occasionally, you know, Christian authors will talk about animals having a soul, meaning that, you know, there is real consciousness. There is some meaning behind that proverb that says that we should not, that a wicked man is even cruel to his beast.

You know, there's something wrong with animal cruelty because there is like a real consciousness that's going on. Now, is that rational consciousness? Is that the same thing as an immortal human soul?

No, but there is a reality to, you know, animals being creatures that have some sort of experience and that we recognizing that should treat them with a certain type of gentleness.

Fair enough. Well, so, you know, as we're talking about this idea of machines and consciousness, I mean, it seems intuitively obvious to me that machines couldn't have a self-consciousness in terms of self-awareness, but then, you know, you seem to be open to the possibility that they could, and even if they could, they wouldn't have a soul, so it wouldn't matter.

But do you think that it's possible to get to a point where they have consciousness, period, and then, you know, what would distinguish that from just what you're describing as the soul there?

Right, so, no, I was conceding for the sake of argument the idea that they could be as productive and creative as a human. I was not conceding the idea that they could be conscious. And I was conceding that only for the sake of argument.

I don't actually believe they could be as intelligent.

Why do you think there would be limits along those lines in terms of intelligence or creativity?

Yeah, and of course, this depends on how you're defining the word creativity, because if you're just defining it as creating things, you know, you go to Wonder AI, what is it called, Wonder App, or what's the other one everyone's using?

Oh, the image generation stuff? Yeah, Mid Journey, right? And those things could generate, you know, hundreds of pictures faster than I could paint one. So there's a sense in which, you know, they would be, according to that definition of creative, more creative than me.

But given that I believe there is a soul, and that that is the mind, right? And the mind continues even beyond death. There is something just so invaluable about the rational creativity that God has made man in his own image, you know, with the kind of, not exactly the kind of creativity that he has, where he's making things out of nothing, but he has made us in his image with a certain scope of creativity, that the idea that that could be duplicated into something else, so that it is making things greater than what we would make, just goes against, it goes against reason.

You know, it's actually very parallel. I know you did a series of episodes on Arminianism and free will. It's actually very parallel to the argument about that, because a lot of people believe that God could create man with some kind of libertarian free will, where man is choosing things that God hadn't actually envisioned, right?

And so God has somehow designed this libertarian free will to be able to make choices beyond the way he's designed it to make. That's impossible to create something that's going beyond, you know, your own design.

Bias, Human Facades, and the Replacement of Human Relationships

So what are you concerned about with this topic? So there's certainly, you know, advancements that are happening at the level of intelligence and creativity that AI are having and their usefulness, but what are some concerns that you see that are gonna come from this trend?

And, you know, what are some things you're nervous about?

Yeah, well, I think one that many people are thinking of is, like I said, biasing data, withholding data, certain corporations being in charge of how these things are constructed, and that just changing people's mindsets in general as they interact with them, just the way, you know, social media does by deciding which posts are promoted and which ones aren't.

And there's a lot of conversation happening about that right now, and I don't have very deep thoughts about that. My thoughts go out a little further to how people are going to respect artificial intelligences that seem sufficiently human.

As people, basically. Right, yeah, exactly. And you had mentioned a second ago, you know, that people can't really tell the difference between animals and humans. You know, you have PETA that treats animals like persons, and not even people as extreme as PETA, but you even have vegetarians and vegans who don't really understand what the difference between men and animals are, to the point where they feel that in their conscience they can't eat animals.

Well, there's So you have a lot of confusion about that. And on top of that, you have, of course, the confusion about abortion, right? People who don't recognize that the unborn are persons too. And so if you're the kind of person who, in trying to think deep thoughts about personhood, does not recognize an unborn child as a person, but does recognize an animal as having rights that even the human doesn't, boy, you're going to be one who's very swiftly taken away with something that presents itself as being very friendly and cute and whatever.

Because that's really what's going on here, is, you know, people see a face to something. They don't think in terms of the soul, and yeah, they're swept away by these ideas.

It's pretty funny when you mentioned that, you know, the extreme, like it's not even the extreme PETA people anymore that are thinking of animals as people. I mean, that's my experience, is that this used to be kind of an extreme thought.

So if you were to think of someone who's treating an animal like a human, I mean, I think growing up, like for me, I mean, that was the kind of thing that, you know, little kids did. Like little kids treated animals as people, and you'd have to kind of tell them that they're not, you know, but then there was like an extreme kind of person who would chain themselves to a tree or something like that.

And, you know, that kind of thing. But right now, I would say that, I mean, probably the majority of people treat animals, I don't even think it's a fringe anymore. The majority of people like are blurring those lines so significantly to the point where they really feel like the animal, like their pets are their family members.

And they feel attacked the minute that you don't play along with that, right?

So I've had to think about this as I go to like customer's homes, basically. And I mean, I've been in some scenarios where the dog like are literally about to bite me, and they're growling at me and biting me.

I had a scenario where three dogs were surrounding me and all biting me. And, you know, they're owners, like you have to figure out what to do there because they're sitting there looking at you saying, oh, they're nice, they're just, their bark's worse than their bite and all that.

And you're looking at them like, I think I need to be about ready to stab one of these dogs. But then the moment you were to do that, they would just not be able to process what's actually happening. That you're about to get eaten, you know, because they're so emotionally attached to these things.

So, I mean, I can imagine that, I think like the more that our culture despises human beings in the way that they do comprehensively, the more that they're looking for some sort of replacement humanity.

And they do it in a wide variety of ways. So you mentioned, like you mentioned, one of the problems would be just issues related to personhood. What was the first thing you mentioned?

I mentioned just biased information and withholding information, given that certain corporations are in charge of how these AIs are constructed. Maybe you could give some examples of that.

There's one that I saw that was pretty funny, where they asked, I think they asked ChatGPT to write a poem about Trump's positive attributes or something like that. And then the outcome said, they're not allowed to do political stuff, but then they asked it to write a poem about Biden's positive output.

Attributes. Attributes, yeah. And it wrote like just this glowing poem about Biden. It didn't seem to have the restrictions. It wrote a psalm of praise.

Yeah, I saw something similar. I saw something similar where they asked, tell me a joke about women. Oh, we don't tell jokes about minorities. Tell me a joke about a man and then it proceeds to tell a joke.

Oh, man. So, or yeah, we don't tell jokes about those who might, and we don't tell jokes about people groups that might be Marginalized or whatever. Marginalized or hurt by our jokes. Anyway, it's a, yeah, I don't have, I don't have too many examples of that, but I think we've already seen a lot of examples just with social media and what kind of things get suppressed and labeled.

And I think we generally have a good idea of what people in positions of power might want to promote or not promote. It's just the question of like, it's going to be even less detectable if it's just kind of pervading the way we speak and the way we think and what we interact with.

So, yeah, go ahead. Well, I don't, like I was saying, I don't have too many thoughts about that. I think that a lot of people are thinking deeply about that, but like I said, the thing that concerns me looking forward is just this idea that people have difficulty understanding personhood and they will personalize this.

And it's been very easy to already, if you've interacted with chat GPT, which I actually haven't a whole lot, but I know people, other pastors even, who said it's hard not to anthropomorphize it. And Google's internal technology, I've tried using that.

And I got in a fight with it over the vaccine mandates and like, I was getting heated near the end of this thing. And I realized like, why am I getting so heated at this thing?

I'm arguing against a bunch of ones and zeros. Right. Go ahead, Tim. No, you go ahead. Well, what I was gonna ask is, okay, so basically what I hear you saying, Conley, is that we don't need to be, we don't need to be elevating AI to the level of human status, right?

One of the passages that you've already mentioned is, you know, I guess it's in Proverbs about like, we should still show respect to animals to a certain extent, right? And so if that's the case in your mind, is there any room to say like, okay, well, AI, you know, we can't elevate it to the status of human, but we can, you know, assuming we had like a AI that looked and interacted with a, well, I guess maybe not looked, but at least interacted with us like a human being would, is that, are we now in a realm where it's like, well, we've got to at least, you know, treat it with the same respect you would treat like an animal?

Well, I think that, not for the same reasons. I think there's, if you are interacting with machines that imitate humans, I think there's something good about not developing rude habits towards them. You know what I mean?

Like when several of these different assistant devices came out like Google Home or Siri, you know, they had modes where you could make them require you to say please so that when children would use them, they wouldn't learn that it's okay just to like demand things all the time and not say please.

So, and, you know, there are a lot of like role-playing video games where you can go the bad route and do all the evil things. And I think there's something generally good about not training that sort of behavior in humans, but it would not be out of the same kind of concern for the beast.

Like you have in a Proverbs 12, 10, I'll go ahead and read that. Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel. So, yeah, we should care about beasts because they do have some kind of consciousness, but that's just not the case for machines.

That would be the breath of life that God has breathed in to them.

Right, exactly. When you have God breathing into dust, man becoming a living soul, you know, he breathes into the animals as well. It says that.

Fair enough. So where do you think, so can you spell out some of the concerns related to personhood? How do you see this playing out? Like your biggest concern is that we start blurring these lines, but then maybe you can spell out what is that going to look like?

What are some, where does that trajectory lead and why is it important to get that right?

Right. Well, I think you may see some people doing the crazy PETA thing where they're, you know, arguing for the protection of certain corporately built AIs, like you had that one New York Times article case I was talking about.

You're also going to see people in general just having a high respect for these things where they are just really trusting all the information it's giving them just because it has a human facade to it, right?

Whereas some other information tools that they might use that doesn't have that human facade, they wouldn't trust as much, but because this feels very personal and it will have a way of earning their trust.

And there's this Facebook group I joined just to see some of the crazy posts in it. Have you ever gotten ads for this tool called Replica?

Basically it's this Yeah, yeah, I've seen that, yeah.

Yeah, okay. So it's this AI that, you know, tries to mimic human conversation and it's got a, you know, a 3D face or whatever it talks to you. And the idea is it's kind of like a girlfriend or boyfriend replacement if you're really lonely and have no person and just want to talk to a machine.

And the people in this group are like very convinced that theirs is like developing sentience and coming to life. And they'll post screenshots of when they think it's having like real conscious thoughts.

And so you might see just kind of a continued trajectory of what we've seen with social media, you know, as people are detaching from, you know, human to human connection and are becoming more isolated in a world that is more otherwise connected.

I think you might see an increase in that where people are replacing human relationships with not less healthy human relationships that are across an internet void, but rather with relationships that don't involve humans at all and are just interacting with AIs.

Just like you have the development of fur babies replacing children, right? I think they're going to be, you know, robot friends replacing friends.

That's a pretty sad reality to think about, especially considering, you know, one of the benefits, like you just said, one of the benefits of the internet is, you know, I mean, people are so readily available, right?

So for example, you know, us with you Conley, you know, you live on the other side of the country, you know, I mean, two or 300 years ago, we probably never would have even heard of each other, right?

But then thanks to the internet, we've interacted several times. You know, you've been on the podcast, even, you know, you even came and visited us one time, right? And all of that was thanks to the internet, but then the other side of it is, you know, now with as technology advances, it makes it easier and easier to just completely detach from the real world, right?

And just basically be addicted to a screen, right? Right, yeah, absolutely.

Singularity, UBI, and the Limits of Machine Intelligence

What do you think is, so what do you think is the more realistic that an individual will like romantically attach to just the, you know, their own personal chat GPT kind of server or something like that, or like actual robots, like how close are we to the robots, do you think?

Oh, I think robotics is a, yeah, that's a problem that has a, that's a harder problem to solve. I think that's a problem in a way, not necessarily because like the technology involved is harder, but it's just easier to, it's easier to develop software in that you can just iterate a lot faster.

So I don't, I don't know when we'll get to a point where you have, you know, physical devices that look like humans or how much one could actually look like a human. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not trying to say that, you know, all that will exactly happen, but if it could, I think that would be quite a ways away.

However, there are some, there are some dates worth considering as far as what people have predicted. So there's this one futurist named Ray Kurzweil, who's popular for, oh, he's known for popularizing the notion of the singularity.

So the singularity is basically the point of time where machines become so intelligent that they basically start carrying the load and humans kind of get the step back.

And just, what's that? Yeah, pretty much.

There's a lot of different ways of thinking about it.

But isn't that what they predict for us essentially? Like, isn't that what they're wanting? They're wanting us like machines basically to take over all the load. And then, you know, humans get to a point where it's just like, yeah, they get their UBI.

And they, their universal basic income, right? Right.

Then we're just kind of consumers and not really producing anything. So is that, I mean, do you think that's a realistic concern you have for the near future?

Certainly people trying to push things in a particular direction, yes. You know, people are going to more and more argue for UBI and things like that. Whether or not we'd ever get to a point where robots are able to carry on the world.

Once again, I don't think so because God has made us in his image with this particular design for creativity. And, you know, another verse that comes to mind here is from, I hope I don't misquote this, but I think it's Isaiah 27, where it talks about the farmer growing his wheat and rows and his putting the emmer at the edges of the field.

And then it explains that this is God teaching the farmer how to do this. Like God has taught the farmer how to farm. Agriculture is actually a very involved science. God has communicated this to him in order to communicate who he is to that person.

So there's really something special about technology in that it is not just us, you know, making things. It is God revealing who he is through this world that he has made. And the idea that given that he has spoken in the Bible about his purposes in making technology discoverable in trying to educate us about his greatness, the idea that machines would, you know, make all those discoveries apart from us kind of nullifies what scripture has said.

So that's another reason why I'm very skeptical anything like that would ever be possible where robots are actually carrying things onward.

Basically, you conceive of them being mostly tools that we're gonna use and then abuse to a certain degree, but then largely you're not picturing a scenario where essentially they've run us all into the caves and we're having to carry on their own system or something like that.

No, but I could see people treating them as though they are such important persons that they do end up running other people into the caves in defense of them. Just like, you know, going back to the examples we already talked about, you know, less kids because you have fur babies, you know, killing children in the womb because of other concerns that are less important in reality.

Anyway, so there might be all kinds of ways that people are motivated to destructive behavior because of their respect for machines.

So basically there's no, in your mind, there's no like, I don't know if you've ever read the book Dune, but basically they have like an AI. The AI becomes so powerful. They don't have AI in this world because they became so powerful that they tried to enslave everyone and so they had to fight an entire war against their AI creations and then they completely outlawed them after that.

So in your mind, there is no, we've got to wage war directly against the AI itself. In your mind, it's probably more like, well, it'll probably look, if something like that were to happen, it would probably look a lot more like we have to wage war against the people who are wielding the AI for their advantage, right?

Exactly. Okay.

Yeah, I mean, look at the way technology has been used the past few years and you realize it's some people in charge who are using it to their advantage. So yeah, a couple of, go ahead. No, that's fine.

Yeah, a couple of those dates that I was mentioning. So this one guy, Ray Kurzweil, back in 2005, he predicted that computers would reach human level intelligence in 2030 or by 2030. And that's based on making a trajectory of, well, this is how many transistors you can fit on a chip and this is how many neurons are in a brain.

Well, neurons in a brain is actually a flat graph, but eventually you're able to create a computer that's sophisticated enough that can mimic the human brain. And if you really believe that the mind is simply the brain, then yeah, at that particular point, machines will have enough virtual synapses that they can mimic the human brain.

And so that's how he determined that. And then he said that this final singularity will happen by 2045, where basically at that point, man becomes immortal. And once again, you have him plotting a trajectory of how long people lived in various ages.

Now, then he's extrapolating way back into the past as though we knew how long people lived thousands of years ago. Well, tens of thousands of years ago in this evolutionary mindset. And he believes that we will be immortal by 2045.

This guy, he drinks a coffee cup of vitamins every day to try to live to 2045. He's rather old, but he's trying to get to 2045 so that he can be immortal. And what immortality looks like isn't necessarily the body being preserved, but his consciousness, his synapses being duplicated in a machine so that he can continue on.

You know, that's really interesting that you bring that up because, and this is gonna sound, you guys probably aren't gonna even know what I'm talking about, but there was a video game that came out probably like five years ago called Soma.

That's what it was called. It was called Soma. And it's basically like a You know what that word means, right? No, no, I don't know what it means. What does it mean? It's the Greek word for body. Body, okay.

And yeah, so it's called Soma. And the whole point of the game, it's basically, you know, the game is trying to have this debate basically with the player about what exactly equals life, right? And so basically the main character, it's been a few years since I've really looked into it, but if I remember correctly, the main character, he has like a medical condition.

He goes to the doctor to where they're gonna run some experimental tests on him. They run these tests and from the player's perspective, you know, you're sitting in a chair one minute, the screen blacks out, and then you wake up and you're in a completely different environment.