Cultish: Pentecostal Holiness, The UPCI, & William Branham

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01:14

All right. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen to Coltish.

01:21

My name is Jeremiah Roberts, one of the co -hosts here. You might hear some noise in the background. That's because we are not in our studio.

01:27

We are not in Andrew's super secret headquarters, which I can, I can either confirm or deny that the location will be disclosed in this podcast.

01:34

But we are in Simpsonville, Kentucky. We are doing a podcast live, at least at this time when it's recorded.

01:43

You're hearing it later at the Simpsonville, Kentucky at the call to freedom conference. You've heard it advertised. It's been a great couple of days,

01:49

Andrew. You've really enjoyed both of us have been able to speak so far. What have you thought about this conference so far? Yeah, I think the conference is extremely important because there's a large demographic of people in the

01:59

United States that are coming out of a workspace religion. And it's a demographic that not many people really know about.

02:05

And right now it's hot in the media, right? Uh, people deconstructing quote unquote, but the beautiful thing about this conference.

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It's not about deconstruction. It's about disentangling from what isn't actually even biblical teaching.

02:17

Yeah. It's disentangling and learning what God actually teaches about grace and faith and freedom in the

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Bible. Yeah. And not just disentangling, I almost could recall like rediscovery, like tasting it again for the first time.

02:28

And that's something that, uh, we're actually talking with Jennifer. Uh, thanks for all for joining us. Thanks so much for having me.

02:34

Yeah. Yeah. And like, so you talked yesterday afternoon and man, it was incredibly touching.

02:40

Um, we'll teach them right into it. Just tell everyone just quickly about your back and we're going to shove through a couple of people around this conference, but for now, uh, just tell them like your kind of background or sort of what led you to this conference.

02:51

Yeah. So I grew up, uh, Trinity Pentecostal holiness, and that came with a lot of expectations on my standards and my performance, a lot of extra biblical things that aren't in the

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Bible, but you're expected to follow to be a good Christian. And it, for me really led me into a lot of pride.

03:09

I became very prideful in those standards and thought that that made me a better Christian than just your average

03:15

Christian. And so, uh, looking back on all of it, I really started just trying to figure out, okay, what does it mean to be a

03:23

Christian without all of these extra standards? What does it mean to walk in the freedom of the gospel, um, without having the expectation of earning your salvation with all of these extra things?

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What are some of the standards, for example? Um, some of the extra standards would be not wearing pants, women having really long hair.

03:44

I couldn't wear nail polish, makeup, jewelry, the list goes on and on and on. I mean, it's a lot of your hyper fundamentalism, um, average standards that I feel like go across many denominations.

03:55

Yeah, no. And then, um, so even like right now, even like what you're right now, the fact that you're, you're full arm is showing there's certain people from your back when even your old self would see you right now and just, we'll be just deer in the headlines, fight or flight mode.

04:09

Oh, absolutely. And it's really wild looking back now because, um, it's, it's a whole new world.

04:15

You know, I think a lot of people that come out of these hyper fundamentalist churches or the hyper controlled groups, um, it takes a lot of time to figure out, okay, what am

04:24

I comfortable with? Who was I, who am I going to be? What do I want to walk in? Uh, what am

04:30

I comfortable with? Right. Not what all these expectations that have been put on me, but like, what does it look like for me?

04:36

Yes. And I mean, it was very interesting too, because I mean, you had a mindset of all these, you took a lot of pride in all the different external appearances, but the real challenge for you, what you talked about yesterday was a lot of the medical issues that you face.

04:51

Explain that to our audience about how that affected you and what the catalyst was that towards where you end up landing at.

04:57

Yeah, absolutely. So when I was 15 years old, I was diagnosed with five different chronic illnesses. Um, one of them called

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Chiari malformation. And basically my brain was too big for my skull and it was pushing into my spine.

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And so my, uh, brain fluid was filling my spine up and, um,

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I was starting to lose some motor skills. And, um, through all of that, I had to have brain surgery. They removed a piece of my skull and my first vertebrae to give my brain more room.

05:24

Um, and it was like massive for me. It was a huge shift in my life because I thought, well,

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I'm a good Christian, bad things shouldn't happen to me. And it really caused me to figure out, okay, well,

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I've performed so well for all these people in my life and for God. So I'm sick. What does that look like now?

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What is that? Well, how do I move forward and figure out what Christian, um, values really truly are?

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Because I thought that because I was such a good Christian, bad things like this shouldn't happen. Wow. So another, no, go ahead.

05:57

Yeah. So were you told like you're sick because probably something you did? Oh yeah, absolutely. Um, not by my family.

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My family was not that way at all, but it was like the exterior people in the church and like other, other voices coming in and saying, oh, well, you must've done something really bad.

06:13

You must've done something really bad to deserve this. Um, and now it's kind of crazy. Cause I was like, no,

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I'm perfect. You know, no, I'm me. Never. I didn't do anything wrong.

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Um, but it's so crazy because I was, I was actually full of my own pride. You know, I did have sin in my heart.

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None of us are perfect. But to say specifically that I had like one act or maybe

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I thought about trimming my hair, like did that cause me to have to have brain surgery or did that cause me to want to, you know, and we're dealing with a very cliff note story like yesterday, but, um, and who knows, maybe we could figure out a time to have you on later on to kind of further unravel your whole story.

06:52

But what would you say would be the main sort of initial like catalyst or sort of like seeing the other edge of the looking glass for the first time where you began to really wonder, well, what if this is not really everything that the gospel truly is?

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It's like everything. Cause it's almost, you think about everything that you're promised was freedom that ended up sort of being turned on its head in regard to dealing with this sickness.

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Right. Right. But like, what was the point that was like, wait a minute, that where God made you say, like,

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God started to like really show your eyes what, what true freedom meant. Cause that's really, you think about our part, the converse here where it's rediscovering freedom called to freedom with Galatians.

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Like, what was that for you? Yeah, for me, I, it wasn't until I had multiple major life events happen, me being sick, one of them and realizing that I had no idea what

07:41

I believed, like I had done what I've been told, but I truly like in my heart of hearts did not know what

07:48

I believed and I did not have the scripture. I had the, the scripture specifically that I had been told to quote over and over, you know how it goes.

07:55

It's like I had those, but like the deep context of the scriptures, no idea. And so when

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I, when I realized that I didn't know, I was like, well, let's find out, let's read the Bible and see what the

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Bible says. And so I started digging into God's word. I started listening to a lot of sermons from well -known preachers that were outside of my specific movement and just started trying to figure out, okay, what they said does this match with God's word of what

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I just read. And it was a lot of, oh, eyes being opened, heart, my heart just slowly started shifting.

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And, and it led me down a whole journey. I had no intention of leaving all of my standards at all. It was just me wanting truth.

08:34

Right. And that led me into being like, oh, my life is a lie. What was one of the first like, uh, doctrines from some of these preachers that you were listening to where you're like, whoa, that's what the

08:45

Bible actually teaches. What was one of the first ones? I think there was a specific sermon that I'm thinking of by Matt Chandler and he was just talking about grace and I, and I remember sitting in my bedroom, probably on the floor at this point, watching the sermon on my computer and bawling my eyes out, being like,

09:03

I've worked so hard for nothing. I've worked so hard the last 20 years of my life for what?

09:10

Yeah. And it was like, God's grace is so free and I've been trying to pay for it when he already paid for all of it.

09:16

Wow. Yeah. So though, like a rediscovery of the gospel, I think without, because a lot of people would have the same experience and background that you'd have, but they'd go down a route of, you know, deconstruction, which we see a lot.

09:28

Yeah. What was the difference for you? Um, yeah, I think for me, I felt a pull in my spirit.

09:34

I, I, I wanted truth and I knew that God was real. I had seen his faithfulness, even though I didn't have a amazing relationship with him or I didn't really know what

09:44

I believe. Like I seen his faithfulness, I had felt his spirit and I knew that he was real and I did not want to walk away from everything, you know, throw the baby out with the bathwater.

09:55

I think a lot of people said that to me. Um, and I thought about that a lot of,

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I don't want to leave Jesus. Right. And then when I actually got to know who Jesus truly was and the character of God, it was how

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I wouldn't want to leave this. Like, this is the truth. This is amazing. My eyes have been opened and, and walking with him is so much better than walking in sin because I was walking in sin before.

10:19

Yeah. You know, and I, I talked a little bit in my story yesterday about how I had also had a lot of anxiety and I was also in sexual sin.

10:28

So there was all of these sexual sins that I put away and left behind and started actually walking in the freedom of the gospel.

10:35

Wow. Yeah. But the holiness standards that you were adhering to never stopped the indulgence of the flesh. Like it says in Colossians two and like, say, say you flip flopped and you were, you were very sick.

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You're going through surgery, things like that. And you start denying God. Uh, then what purpose do you have even for your sickness anymore?

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You know, like, is that something that made you kept clinging to God? It's like, well, if God isn't here and God isn't real, my sickness is for no reason.

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I have no purpose. Oh, absolutely. I think that was a very big thing too. There was so many things in my life that I was like, no,

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Jesus has to be real. You know, the word of God has to be real. And I've seen it proved over and over there.

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For me, there wasn't really another option. I just ran to him instead of away from him because I felt like for the, for a very long period of time in my life,

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I did run from it, you know, trying to fulfill all of these desires in my heart.

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And I, and I finally got tired of it and was like, okay, it's time to come home. It's time to actually figure out what

11:33

I believe and be in the father's arms. Yeah. Also, let me ask you this too, as we talked about yesterday, we were talking to you about my background of sort of coming in the background of purity culture,

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Joshua Harris, the breakaway magazine, the true love weights campaign and all that.

11:50

And it's very interesting because a lot of times a lot of people who are in groups, specifically women, when they're in groups with a lot of those rigid, you know, dress restrictions, they tend to really pendulum swing and their way to vicarious rebel against their own group is like promiscuity in many ways.

12:06

But you were talking about yesterday and I think you may have done a talk about sort of rediscovering like what, like modesty really is, like what would be, you know, disentangling, kind of rediscovering what that is.

12:20

Like what, what would you say, like knowing what you know now as a woman of God who wants to do things that are pleasing to God, how would you like define that now versus how you define it when you're in as according to holiness standards?

12:30

Yeah. So I'll start with what I used to believe and what I used to think modesty was. Modesty was always like there to protect men primarily.

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It was there to be a guard, to shield men from lust and keep men from sinning.

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And that's what I primarily thought it was, you know, covering yourself. And that was like the gist of it.

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I now believe that modesty is so much more than clothing and it goes so much deeper into our heart.

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Modesty is simply humbleness. You know, that's why when somebody gives you a compliment and you kind of brush it off and they say, oh, you're just being modest.

13:08

Yeah. You're being humble. You're being humble before the Lord. You know, you have a humble spirit and that goes way deeper than clothing.

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That that should go in all areas of our lives. That should go into our hearts and our how we deal with our pride.

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And for me, I would spend, I talked about this in my story a little bit yesterday, but I, I would spend hundreds of dollars on high heels and fancy dresses and big name purses.

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And I was so modest, you know, I was just so modest with all of my pride. And it's a completely contradicting thing.

13:40

So modesty, modesty really is about so much more. And I never heard it talked about to men, really.

13:46

Men, men and modesty didn't really go together. They like to take the verse in verse Timothy, where it talks about, you know, the women in the church should adorn themselves in modest apparel.

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And they leave it at that. And they they use that verse to say that it's just for women. But that verse is specifically talking about women flaunting their wealth in the church.

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So it's a whole deep dive into into it's about your heart attitude.

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It had nothing to do with lust. Yeah, it was about their hearts and the way that they were flaunting themselves.

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And so modesty and then you're reading Galatians. This is amazing to me. And you're in Galatians that that he says that there's neither

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Jew nor nor Gentile and there's neither male nor female.

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So why why would modesty just be for women? Humbleness is for all believers. Yeah, no, that's really good.

14:36

And what would you say to like so far in this conference? What has been your biggest aha moment? You went up and spoke and we were able to speak yesterday with all the talks, everything that's happened so far.

14:45

What what have you had any kind of big like aha moments or takeaways just so far?

14:51

What what what has it been like for you? Yeah, this is this conference has been so encouraging to my heart.

14:56

There's so many peoples from so many different walks of life, so many different people that have walked a lot of really hard things.

15:03

And for me, I think today, actually, I had a big aha moment. And it was when Nathan Mayo, Natalie's brother, he said, people say walking in freedom means not following all these extra standards.

15:16

But walking in the freedom of the gospel truly is about resting in our salvation. That Christ, Christ's sacrifice is enough.

15:24

Yeah, Christ, what Christ did is enough. And that's what the freedom of the gospel is. It's not about doing whatever we want.

15:30

It's not about living life however we see fit. It's literally about accepting his grace and what he's done for us.

15:38

No, that's so good. And the fact I just think of, you know, I was talking in the talk that I gave about how Hebrews chapter the whole book of Hebrews is almost like a warning against deconstruction, people who want to leave that way.

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And one of the warnings against apostasy is like, be wary lest you don't enter into the rest of the

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Lord. You know, and that's that's one of the dire warnings. And so when you actually find that freedom, it is an area of rest.

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And if you don't go there and if you do end up towards deconstruction, it really is an area of like restlessness.

16:10

Right. And that's like the true freedom that you can find there. So that that was this whole thing has been very opening, opening for me.

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And I think it's been so awesome because Jennifer Brewer, who's been one of the hosts of it, she's been on that she was on the podcast forever ago.

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And like us being here is the fact that she had the courage to reach out to us all those years ago. And here we are.

16:29

You know how now having this conversation, it's always just amazing to see the ripple effects of just how that works, the connections that are being made, the friendships that like I know that I'm going to still catch up with you guys online and we'll still be in touch.

16:41

And so many friendships are being formed here where I really feel like it's a whole community of people that's going to keep going and keep encouraging each other and have honest conversations and vulnerability.

16:52

And allowing the Holy Spirit to work through that. It's just so beautiful. Well, awesome. And just where can people find you on?

16:57

We're going to jump on, have a couple of people jump on from the conference. But just real quickly, where can people find you on? You are you have your own podcast or you want to know you've got a big social media following up.

17:07

Where can people find you at? So I don't have my own podcast yet. I don't know if I ever will, but we'll see what the

17:12

Lord does that you can find on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, threads. That's a new thing.

17:18

That's a new one. Threads. Everything is just at Jen Brawler. So it's Jen and then

17:23

Brawler is B -R -A -L -L -I -E -R. OK, well, we'll put your tag to some of your socials there.

17:29

People can find you. Perfect. Thank you guys so much. Absolutely. It's been a blast. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Awesome. Absolutely. Hey, what's up, everybody?

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Talk to you later, guys. All right. So we are like I said, we're at the call to freedom conference and we're just kind of shuffling through a couple of people who've been in the conference.

19:00

So we are here with Leo. Is it Pastor Leo? Is that is that the title we're giving you?

19:07

I mean, hey, I don't know how to call the pastor. Just Leo is fine with me. Yeah, it's fine with me.

19:12

Awesome, man. Just tell me about your background. I know you you're on a panel. We'll talk about that, about dealing with spiritual abuse.

19:18

But so your background is that you were in the UPC and we did cover that forever ago. But you were a pastor in the

19:25

UPC. Yeah. Just tell everyone just about just about that real quickly. Yeah. So it was so.

19:31

So I was licensed. I was licensed minister and a youth pastor for within the UPC. And I was a part of them for 16 years.

19:38

And, you know, I I did everything in within our church, not just pastoring, but also, you know, just basic stuff like ushering, outreach, teaching

19:50

Bible studies, just going evangelizing, just doing a lot, a lot of investment, a lot of commitment within the organization.

19:57

But, you know, after being there for so long and teaching and also teaching

20:02

Bible Institute classes, I began to start just studying about certain things that I had questions on, even while I was in there and while I was in there, you know, the environment is very, very controlling in terms of like information.

20:17

So there's a lot of information control, you know, so you're you're only allowed to like study certain things based upon whatever they give you and other things outside of that is kind of like considered suspect.

20:27

Yeah. So like like the Watchtower Track Society has magazines. So when you're studying the Bible and the institutes, there's like specific curriculums.

20:35

Yeah. So they have specific curriculums and most of it has come from Pentecostal Publishing House. That's what the UPC usually uses.

20:41

And so a lot of my stuff was was was just centered around that. And of course, other books that and within those within the

20:46

Pentecostal Publishing House, you had specific people that had specific books that you had to read and ensure that you would utilize their information whenever you're giving out, you know, your your teachings and so forth.

20:56

So a lot of that was what I was using. But also every now and then they would, you know, allow you to use some outside source information, which was non for us, non apostolic and non

21:07

Pentecostal. And when, you know, you do stuff like that, you come into contact with things that they may not necessarily agree with.

21:13

And of course, that's when the questions start arising. Yeah, I remember like when we did our initial studies and, you know, for them, like it's a modalistic view of God.

21:23

And so I know there's a primary theologian. I think his name started with a B, but it was he was the sort of like the main person that can be reviewed as an authority when it comes to just people within the one is apostolic.

21:35

They kind of see him as a revered theologian talking about David Bernard. Yes, yes. David Bernard. Yeah. Yeah, right.

21:41

Last name, but all the same. But yeah, you get the idea where it's like, hey, this is the sort of centralized like your theology, everything centered around.

21:48

You can only view it through how this person sees it. Yeah, that's exactly true. Like most of the our books for ministers, minister of the license, almost 80 percent of the books are from him.

21:59

Oh, wow. And so he's considered to be revered as, you know, the one that has all the scholarship in terms of theology.

22:05

So he had all kinds of books, you know, anything from holiness standards to soteriology to the divinity of God, how, you know, how we ought to perceive

22:13

God to be in terms of modalism. So it was he was you know, and he's a lawyer, of course.

22:18

Yeah. So how he works things, of course, is it's going to be very impactful for how we interpret script.

22:23

Yeah. And so, you know, he was like we would look at him as like, hey, he's the top guy. And so his books was always recommended and always given within our classes in our in our even in our

22:33

Bible schools. Did they give him like a specific title, like Apostle David Bernard? So he is technically the superintendent of the

22:39

UPC. So that is the highest position that you can hold within the UPC. But if you want to say he's like, you know, they're

22:47

I don't know, Apostle Bishop. I mean, you could you could say that. But for him, yeah, he's titled the superintendent.

22:53

Yeah. Yeah. And so you mentioned is very interesting. And this is the case for a lot of people. Twenty twenty.

23:00

That was a very unique year, not just for you, but for a lot of people who are both in a different cultish like groups, but also in the new age.

23:08

A lot of people that series of events. The crazy that year was like a lot of your sort of the not going to church, going on Zoom and gave people a lot more free time than they expected.

23:20

So they actually had a chance to think through things like you telling that story is like I've heard that story so many times.

23:27

And now they're telling like bringing to everyone about that time and how that was a kind of a game changer for you a little bit.

23:32

Yeah. Yeah. So prior to Covid, I was already asking some questions, you know, about the standards, you know, why women can't wear pants?

23:40

You know, why? Why we can't wear jewelry? Why is it such a big deal with some of these unbiblical or extra biblical standards?

23:46

So that was one thing. So I was pulling this tapestry that I was pulling the thread. Yeah. As time progressed, you know, kids were asking me these questions, you know, why we can't do certain things.

23:53

And I was like, well, because, you know, my pastor said so or because David Bernardi, you know, he's he's giving us all this wisdom.

23:59

Yeah. But behind the scenes, you know, I'm just like uneased about some of these things. And then it went from standards to it went from the church culture, like what the type of church

24:07

I was a part of. Very authoritarian, you know, you know, you really couldn't really say anything. You know, you can question you can ask questions freely because everything had to be run by your pastor.

24:18

He was like the final authority, not not God. So I was in a situation where I was like, OK, who do I trust if I see something in scripture?

24:24

And I'm like, man, I have a question on this and I don't see what the scripture is saying, what my pastor is saying.

24:30

So I was in this dilemma, like, should I trust my pastor or should I trust the word of God? Yeah. And I was like, why am

24:36

I even struggling with this? Why? Why? Why am I even asking which one should I give us an example of one of the things that you were really struggling with?

24:45

Yeah. So, for example, like in the UPC back then, I think now it's starting to change in terms of the standards. But when I was in it, you know, men couldn't have beards.

24:53

Oh, you find gentlemen here have fully, you know, robust beard. This is better than mine.

24:59

Yeah. But within the UPC, you know, clean shaven is is is the standard.

25:06

And I guess, you know, it traces back to some history back in the in the 17th and the 70s, I think, with the whole hippie movement or whatever.

25:14

But for whatever reason, they established this no beard policy and it became like not just a standard, but like a salvational issue, a holiness issue that if you had a beard, you were considered to be, you know, not spiritually mature.

25:28

What did they do with Jesus having a beard and getting ripped out of his face before? You know, they they try and avoid that, even though they would say, yeah, he had a beard.

25:35

But but, you know, culture has changed. So they would appeal to culture. And yet they say, don't be like culture.

25:41

And yet, you know, yeah, but then you have Jesus having a beard. So, yeah. So whatever, you know, that alone.

25:48

So my pastor, for example, he was in the pulpit one day. Right. And he says as many times. But this one particular time I was just like, oh,

25:53

I'm having I'm almost having enough with this. Yeah. He said to me, he said to the audience, you know what? If I could, if I can get all the men to gather together,

26:01

I would gather them and they have beards. I'd get them together and I'd burn all beards. I'd burn their beards off.

26:06

Wow. Yeah. This is extreme stuff. Like and that's just one of the many things that I just always hear all the time.

26:12

Yeah. So when he said that and he said another thing about, you know, if if if women are wearing pants, then there is an abomination in all women who wear pants.

26:23

They're going to go to hell for wearing pants. So I have this issue here with these standards that are becoming so dogmatic that I began to question.

26:31

So let me go back in scripture and let me find. Is there anywhere in the Bible that talks about beards being a sin? And there is not one scripture that I could appeal to.

26:40

I could I could muster up to say, yeah, here is the reason why there was more scriptures to support the wearing of beards all the way from Genesis to the

26:48

New Testament. There is nothing wrong with it. So so and of course, with pants, Deuteronomy 22, five was like the scripture that you would use to say, hey, you know, women can't wear pants because men's clothes.

26:58

Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm like, well, that's not really talking about pants because even back then they didn't wear pants.

27:06

They were up your loins, man. Yeah, totally different. Yeah. So I'm just having struggles with telling the youth this.

27:13

And so in as as you know, before Covid, like I was saying, had all these questions. But when Covid came,

27:18

I was able to slow down from all the ministry work that we were doing, all the preaching and whatnot. Everything was kind of localized to being the zoom and whatnot.

27:24

But I just took time to study every particular thing that my organization was telling me was to be absolutely truth.

27:32

And it was just pulling that thread. So the standards was just pulling apart. I was no longer convicted about the things that, you know, my group.

27:40

Yeah. Then it went into soteriology. So I'm like, OK, so standards are wrong. What else is wrong?

27:45

And I began to study upon upon upon salvation. And they believe that you had to speak in tongues to be saved.

27:51

Yeah, I believe you had to be baptized specifically by saying the name of Jesus Christ. Yes. And if you don't do those things, you're not saved.

27:57

Yes, you have faith. You know, we're saved by by grace and faith. But that's supposed to lead to obedience, which is, of course, doing these works, which

28:04

I found out to be untrue. I listened to a whole bunch of podcasts during during Covid. I listened to debates between, for example,

28:10

James White and David Bernard, James James White and Sam Perkins and just, you know, just other other people, too.

28:17

But and it was just unfolding like, yeah, their theology is is is misrepresenting scripture.

28:23

This is not true. We are truly saved by grace through faith alone. There isn't no additional works that we need to perform.

28:30

And if we do works, it is to just to identify that we are Christians. It's because we love

28:35

Jesus. We're not doing works in order to be saved. So that was that was just, you know, everything was just raveling from, like I said, standards, church culture and then the and then the soteriology.

28:46

So when as Covid was progressing and so forth, as time was going, I finally had the courage to confront my pastor about, hey,

28:55

I'm just having some some theological differences. And I was scared because, again, it's really authoritative.

29:00

Like you don't question these things. You're questioning not just that you're questioning the whole denomination. Everything. And they're the one true church.

29:06

Everything. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Church. And they asked me to they asked me to start a church that was asking me to go pastor a church.

29:12

So at this point, I'm like, you don't want me to pastor a church, right? Yeah. Yeah. Because I'll do some damage because I mean,

29:18

I just I'm just not in a good position. But I went and I went humbly asking some questions.

29:23

I was like, hey, I'm looking at some scriptures and I'm just not seeing what I used to see anymore.

29:29

And this was like a complete shock to them because I was I was always like brown nosing. I was there.

29:34

I was committed. Whatever the pastor wanted, I was down. But at this point, I couldn't do it anymore. I said, hey, you know, this is not right.

29:41

So it's my first time coming into the to my past. So there's a bishop and then there's a pastor. So the bishops like overseeing everything.

29:48

The pastor, you know, kind of coordinates the church and everything. So I went to my pastor first. I said, hey, I'm having some theological differences.

29:55

I don't know what to do now. And I was like, well, you know, if the bishop hears about this, you know, it's not going to be good.

30:02

So I said, I know, man, but I've been studying too much to to not be in this position. Yeah. So then we go to the bishop.

30:08

And when I went to the bishop, he sat me down. He opened up his Bible and he said, yeah, I heard you having some concerns about soteriology and about being born again and so forth.

30:17

He's like, well, so before I even started speaking, the room was already getting getting hot. And he said, hey, all right, well, here's what here's here's the thing.

30:25

There's three compartments in in hell. Right. And because you're a minister and you've been teaching the word.

30:32

Well, if you teach anything other than what we're teaching, because this is the absolute truth, is it not right before?

30:38

I'm not even asking. He's like, you will be in the third part, the lowest part of hell because you're veering away from what was considered the truth.

30:46

And not only that, not only will you be in hell, but your whole family will be in hell. And as a matter of fact, if you teach anything, if you leave this room and you teach anything other than this, then all of their blood is going to be on your hands.

30:57

Before even any of the questions before any of the questions. And I was like, wow, this is intense.

31:02

So when I begin to ask the question, I say, what do you think about, you know, in Corinthians where he's talking about Paul is talking about being than anyone that did.

31:12

Why are you being divided? You know, some of Apollo, some of the first Corinthians one. Yeah, one. Right.

31:17

Yeah. And he's like, you know, did any of them die for you? You know, was was any of you baptized in my name?

31:23

But he's not saying and literally baptizing in this invoking Paul's name. He's just saying, you know, baptizing my authority because that's what

31:30

Jesus name really means. And when I said that, oh, my. When I asked that question and posed it like that, he was irate.

31:39

He was so mad to the point to where he was like, listen, son, I don't know what's happening to you, but I think the devil's gotten into you and you you're going to have to step down.

31:47

I don't want you on the platform anymore because this is what we believe. Are you telling me in the meetings?

31:52

Are you telling me after 50 years of of me being in ministry and teaching, are you kind of tell me that I'm I'm wrong, that I've been teaching wrong?

31:59

So when you're in that situation, you're like, man, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong.

32:05

The Bible says you're wrong, man. And that's from 4000 years ago. Yeah. But I mean, I just don't see it.

32:10

Yeah, I'm just reading. Yeah. In context. Yeah. And after that, man, he was like, you know what, son, you need to get out of here.

32:16

I have another meeting, but you're going to step down. And I told I told my pastor, I said, hey, I was willing to step down prior to coming into that meeting because I was like,

32:23

I got to get my head right. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I am. But let me just why don't we talk through this? So I was thinking that I was going to get maybe some other sessions with my pastor.

32:33

That didn't happen. That a pastor will do what a pastor is supposed to do. Right. Right. Answering questions. Yeah. So the next day came, there was a service.

32:39

I didn't go because I felt hurt and I was crying. I was in tears because that never happened to me before. I'm sitting I'm sitting down in my room.

32:45

And my wife goes to church with my kids and my dad who came from New York at that day. I get these phone calls.

32:51

I get everybody blasting my phone, texting me, like, yo, where you at? Where you at? Where you at? I was like, what's going on? Yo, the pastor was on the platform blasting you like he's calling your name out.

32:59

And he's he's saying how stupid you are, how dumb you are, because he's all of a sudden changing his his beliefs. And I'm like,

33:05

OK, let me go online and let me see the service. Let me hear what he's got to say. Lo and behold, they they they turned the mic off.

33:11

They turned the volume on so you couldn't hear. No way. What was being said. But they turned it off after they announced my name over the pulpit.

33:18

So at least people knew who they who he was talking about. Yeah. But I couldn't hear anything else. So. Wow.

33:25

So this is this immediate sort of PR thing and shunning thing, which is just so wild because, I mean, we're about to do a

33:31

Q &A thing. I can imagine if somebody has a question, we turn and say that it's like, what?

33:38

No, but it runs in seriously. It's so antithetical to like what you think about with the Apostle Paul, when he he would go into the

33:44

Areopagus and he had reason with the Stoics and the philosophers, and he would work out in the arena of ideas where this is an area where it's like you should have that confidence as a

33:55

Christian, where it's like, hey, that's where you've seen those like debates with like James White between David Bernard.

34:01

It's like the cross examination that happens. Like that's where you have to be willing to have your beliefs and challenge.

34:07

I can only imagine that. So, yeah, it was really good. I think that like you're hitting on a lot of good things. Just real quickly with this conference,

34:15

I know you did the talk yesterday on spiritual abuse, and you're you're kind of reiterating what you talked about with your experience.

34:21

What has been kind of like your personal like biggest takeaway just for this conference and any aha moments that you'd like to share just that you've had so far?

34:30

Yeah, no, I mean, this conference has been great, you know, sharing not only my story, but other stories that I've heard.

34:36

It's just amazing to see how similar even other groups, not just my group and how they all have the same type of experiences, whether it's high controlling authoritarian groups, leadership, whether it's just like the standards and just the way that things happen while they're in there and their transitions and how people are trying to find their way through this process.

35:00

And it's just amazing to see that even in the midst of all of the different types of groups, that people can come together and try to do things in terms of this, where we can try to recover from the damages that have happened through the groups that we've been a part of and to just see how people are.

35:16

You know, they're so genuine. There's there's there's even love here in spite of. And there may be people that are hurt here, but there are people that are desperately wanting to really find

35:25

Christ, really understand their relationship with God and really be on the path where they can finally receive peace.

35:30

It's just amazing to see here. Yeah. Isn't that weird, too? It's like the exact juxtaposition of when you went and talked to the bishop.

35:37

Like there's people from different denominations, even in here that are coming out of legalism and they're getting together through the bounds of the

35:44

Holy Spirit. Whereas when you talk to your bishop to ask questions, all of a sudden you're questioning the one true church.

35:50

Right. Meaning that all others are false, where there's non -essentials that we may differ with people in here.

35:56

Yeah. That don't mean you're not saved. And you can still commune together through the bonds of the Holy Spirit, like all tribes, peoples, tongues and nations.

36:03

There's going to be some differences there. But the essentials of the faith stay the same. Right. So what did you think when he was asking when he was telling you those things, like with interactions you had with other people that maybe you thought were

36:14

Christian that weren't UPCI when you were younger? Were you like, whoa, I'm all of a sudden

36:19

I'm in a cult. Yeah. What was it? What were you thinking? You mean after after that happened? Yeah.

36:24

Yeah. Like, man, it was it was a game changer because I'm like, wow. When I was starting to meet other people after I left,

36:30

I realized that. Yeah. Like you were saying earlier, like, man, there's a lot of people here like out of my my group that are actually true

36:37

Christians, because before I was always looking at if you're a Trinitarian, if you were even if you were a

36:43

Calvinist or something of that nature, they were all like like lost. They were all just not saved. The devil's doctrine.

36:49

Yeah. Like it was crazy. But then after coming out and actually getting connected with other people who had different types of different, you know, maybe some subjects that may not be all, you know, all unified.

36:59

But at the same time, there's common grounds in terms of salvation. Man, it just blew my mind to know that there are more people out here that are actually truly saved and that what was what

37:09

I was a part of is another gospel, unfortunately. And it hurts me because I have a lot of people.

37:14

I have my my mom is still in it. You know, I have other friends and family, family members that are still a part of these these groups.

37:21

And you're just praying that God will also at some point that the lights come on as well and pull that tapestry slowly.

37:26

But hopefully enough to be able to come out. That's what we're seeing here. That's what encourages me.

37:32

I think God is pulling that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And some people are still in it, but some of them are asking good questions.

37:39

And what I like about this here is that there's a lot of objectivity. You know, I think once you're in some of these groups, at least when

37:45

I was in my church, you lost the sense of objectivity to be able to sit down and reason with the scriptures and be able to evaluate is what

37:52

I'm in really true is what I'm actually learning. Is it correct? Yeah. Is it in context? So here, a lot of objectivity.

37:58

And that's what gets people freedom. Awesome. Well, Leo, thank you so much for coming on and chowing us a little bit. Yeah. And yeah, this has been great.

38:05

And this is going to be a great rest of Congress. We're looking forward to the rest of this time. And I think what you've said is incredibly valuable for audience.

38:11

I'm looking forward to getting the feedback from that. Awesome. And I appreciate it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks, Leo.

38:17

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38:24

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38:33

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38:41

Talk to you later, guys. All right. So we are the last little segment of our little pod live podcast to be recorded later.

38:49

But we're here with Michael. Good to talk to you, man. Yeah. Good to be here, man. Yeah. So this is really interesting.

38:56

So we did a series initially with John Collins talking about William Brannan and the message.

39:03

And that was like a six part series. So you were part of the message your whole life.

39:09

I was I was born into it. You're born into the message. You're born into William Brannan's groups. The majority of your life, you saw him as the prophet, the latter reign, all like all the restoration theology that he taught.

39:22

And you're here. Yeah, it's been a crazy journey. And, you know, like just coming from him being the end all be all.

39:32

Yeah. You know, salvation being tied to the movement that was created by him around him to now where like Jesus Christ is the absolute.

39:43

Yeah. And it's all I need is life changing and just so different in so many different ways.

39:50

Yeah. What was like I mean, explain what was life sort of like week to week in William Brannan?

39:58

I mean, I've only really dealt in the conversation we have with John Collins, understanding like the history. Like I was very fascinated.

40:04

If you haven't listened to a series, it's like watching kind of like a boardwalk empire show of like the 1920s.

40:11

It's like an Avengers of like 1920s villains. Right. Right. But but we think about this is like your life.

40:16

What was week to week life like Sunday services community? What's take us into that world, if you could.

40:23

Yeah. So growing up in the message, it was a very, very loving community.

40:28

Yeah. So, you know, you felt very accepted and you felt really understood because it was, you know, hyper fundamentalists like there were a lot of, you know, things that you didn't do or that you did do that set you apart.

40:42

And so, you know, the community gave you a safe haven to be, you know, yourself and you felt understood.

40:51

So there was a lot of church growing up. Growing up, I went to church three times a week, Sunday, Wednesday, Friday.

40:58

I was a kid. I didn't understand hardly anything. So that was an amazing, you know, nap session for me.

41:07

But but yeah, and then as I got older, I began to understand a little bit more. And I think there were definitely points of it that I just never understood.

41:18

And it was one of those things where I just, you know, I just put it on the shelf and I didn't dare tell my friends about it.

41:24

As a matter of fact, I have friends who are not in the movement. And I, you know, I I think it was probably frowned upon a little bit or just like, you know,

41:32

I don't quite understand that. But I was, you know, very.

41:39

At least I would say like maybe I was a worship leader within the movement. And so I think

41:45

I, you know, I experienced like high visibility within the movement. So being a worship leader, I found such great purpose in that.

41:52

Yeah. And it was it was amazing. It was fulfilling to serve and to see how God was using my gift to reach people.

42:01

What what were some of the songs like? Were there any songs praising William Branham? Definitely. Really? They're like so in the message, there's just a lot of terms that have been, you know, specially coined that are related to the movement.

42:17

Right. So, you know, people would write revelated songs. Right. And I I'm also a songwriter.

42:24

And so being influenced by the movement, I also wrote songs that were I wouldn't say praised

42:30

William Branham, but definitely like upheld the standards of the message and included terminology that probably only a message believer would really understand.

42:38

Oh, yeah. Yeah. At least maybe surface level, people who weren't in the movement could.

42:44

Oh, this is a great song. But like if you were in the message, it had a completely different meaning for you.

42:49

Wow. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Just like like words, you know, the idea of like living in the last days and God preparing a bride, you know, who's like one in a million.

43:00

And, you know, this very elitist nature. And then there were songs that I think as I the closer

43:08

I was to transitioning out of the message, there was more of a focus on writing songs about Jesus Christ.

43:16

And they kind of lacked some of that message lingo or buzzwords, if you will.

43:23

And so, you know, some of the songs I'm like, man, maybe I should like rewrite them. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but it is what it is.

43:31

Right. It is what it is. And I think I could have only, you know, I didn't understand, you know, it's a very psychological thing.

43:38

Good thing grace is real. Yeah. So true. Yeah. So true. Yeah. You're forgiven. Yeah. So I don't like so there are songs that I've written that are still that are out there.

43:50

And I'm like, man, like I was really part of that. And like they're still being sung. I'm like, oh, no. Like, you know, yeah,

43:56

I'm helping to spread it, you know. But, you know, grace. Right. I was where I was.

44:01

And I was I was captivated by it, by this loving movement and figure that was adored.

44:08

And, you know, that was very charismatic and humble. And yeah. So so he's dead when you're in it.

44:13

So who was teaching? Pastors, you know, you know, they they they they're really big.

44:23

Well, the well, depends on what sector you're from. But like the five foot ministry, basically, where it's like it's infusion of that.

44:30

And so like, you know, so that you have pastors who who who spread the message of William Branham and then everyone else, you know, they go out and try to convert people.

44:42

Yeah. Basically, to recruit more message believers, not quite people to Christ.

44:49

Yeah. Although it'll it'll it'll say, yeah, right. But we understand what they mean by Christ.

44:58

Yeah. What do they mean by Christ? What they mean by Christ is, well, there's a there's a famous mentality in the message that the message is

45:07

Christ. And so and so, you know, it's like it's a very indirect, basically tieback tieback that almost reveres

45:20

William Branham as God. And I know that like a message believer who hears that would say like, oh, that's not true.

45:29

But it's like, yeah, Christ is on the earth again and the Messiah anointing.

45:35

And it's in the ministry of William Branham. Whoa. And so and then statements like you can't separate the messenger from the message.

45:42

So it's like, OK, yeah, so it begins to be really blurry and then open up to interpretation for a lot of people to then deify him.

45:52

Yes, they have. I mean, like in Deuteronomy 18, it says if someone comes and they speak in the name of Yahweh, like so Moses, when he's speaking as a prophet, people looked upon that as the voice of God.

46:03

Right. You're being consistent. And William Branham is a prophet. He's speaking for Yahweh. Yeah, no, exactly.

46:09

Well, he's seen as the mouthpiece of God. Yeah. And then his message then empowers the believers to believe that they are, and I quote, the final voice to the final age.

46:21

And so and then you're even encouraged or you are you're given this ideology that you are little messiahs.

46:32

Oh, really? Like like you are little gods. You know that. So it's it's just very.

46:38

Yeah. And I think some of that came from Mormonism. And, you know, the message is really like a hodgepodge of like it's a lot.

46:44

It's a lot of syncretism. A lot of. Yeah. Let me ask you this. We're limited time here. And maybe we could figure out time to talk with you further about this.

46:51

But, you know, you're here with your whole family. Yeah. Is that your wife back over there? It's my wife. She's looking at you, beaming with pride and put her on the spot.

46:59

But honestly, you know, usually this is like your whole family left, though. Like just can you give us like a whole cliff notes?

47:06

I know this girl back there. I think I talk with her a little bit and some others like how. Praise God. What was like just very quickly.

47:12

I brought in there's a whole brought a whole other story in of itself. Yes. But like what was the kind of the catalyst? What was the usually there usually there's like a straw that breaks the camel's back where you begin to really question and then you leave.

47:23

But a lot of times when it's a lot of times, I think it's like there's a story of Jim and Judy Robertson who left

47:28

Mormonism. Both of them were going kind of through their own process of kind of like deconstruction of Mormonism.

47:34

But they didn't talk to each other. But finally, they talked to the both of them, realized they were going through this whole questioning process.

47:40

Yes. Like just for a cliff notes. What was it like for you and your family? And you're all here now. So, you know,

47:45

Dorcas and I were in a place where we were just not understanding the message or not finding it applicable to our lives.

47:54

Yeah. And we were like, no, we need a gospel that that can give us victory through the week that we can like we need a relatable

48:00

Jesus Christ. You know. So while we were going that we weren't necessarily trying to transition out of the message. We were just looking for more relatable truth.

48:09

Well, while we were doing that, her family was actually had already transitioned out of the message.

48:15

And so we were like, oh, my gosh, you guys are crazy. Like, like, how could you leave like this? This end time truth that's, you know, changed our lives.

48:23

And and then so, you know, talking with them, like we began to study the scripture for ourselves and it started, you know, our own journey.

48:33

And then, you know, it all it takes is like one whole. Right. And you begin to unravel out of it and you begin to understand like the

48:41

Jesus of the Bible is not what I've been told like he was. He's much more he's much more gracious and loving and so much more powerful than the diminished version that I grew up with.

48:56

And so it's been amazing, like having, you know, that side of the family that's out of it, that's that that we've been able to have community with and grow together and have

49:06

Bible study with. Yeah. So when we heard about this conference, it was it was it was a no brainer. Yeah. Makes sense.

49:12

And just real quickly, what would be what's been like the biggest takeaway like from this? I mean, I know I met you like right after I did my talk.

49:19

And Andrew obviously gave his talk this morning. There's been a lot of great panels. Natalie's been fantastic. Jennifer's been fantastic.

49:26

But what would you say? What would be a big aha moment that's really been here like this entire weekend? I think that the big aha moment for me from this weekend has just been.

49:39

How beautiful and how powerful the gospel is in its simplicity and how it's just affected everyone who's who who who who've come out of movements.

49:52

Yeah. That, you know, that runs the spectrum of pseudo Christianity. Yeah. Right.

49:58

But like the nearness and the sheer joy and experience that we have when we come to the true meaning of the gospel, it's like, man, it really is just that simple.

50:09

And like, you know, also, I'm not the only one who was a victim of these things. But praise God. Like, yeah, there's there's hope, there's love, there's redemption outside of that movement.

50:20

Yeah, man, I'm so happy to be here. For sure. You know, it's really cool as we wrap up here is that and you can be your final thoughts is that there is like birds of a feather on both sides.

50:30

So there's other groups, whether it's the holiness groups or, you know, anyone from any of the other backgrounds that we've had in the youth of William Branham.

50:39

Right. You know, the one is apostolic. Any of those movements, there's there's sort of that legalism, that bondage in your identities and that, you know, charismatic leader.

50:49

Sure. But then you see the exact opposite. We look at the or this conference called Call to Freedom.

50:55

You think of that scripture says where the spirit of the Lord is. There is freedom. Yes. So it's like we're here as Christians.

51:01

There's lots of secondary issues that are there, you know, whether it's reformed, Arminian, egalitarian, complementarian, like all these like secondary issues.

51:10

But we're like unified where we understand that there's true like freedom in the gospel and a true like relationship with God that comes about through Jesus.

51:18

And that's where like true freedom comes about. So, yeah, man, it's been really cool. And like it's also interesting, too, like you mentioned that our series, in case anyone who's listening to this, who's next friend of mine, we did a series with John Collins on William Bram as a six part series that goes from his very origins to how things ended in a very weird way with Jim Jones.

51:39

Like what was your biggest takeaway from that series from that series? I think it really helped me to understand the history of the movement.

51:46

Starting out, I think that was very I wasn't expecting that when I first started listening to it. I thought I thought it would just, you know, kind of like come at like maybe the inconsistencies that exist.

51:55

Right. Yeah. But starting from the like the very beginning, it really solidified or it was very eye opening to like where it started and like where where some of the doctrine started.

52:08

And just, you know, I live in a life of context now that's so important.

52:14

So understanding the context of like how he actually grew up and the context of his life that likely shaped a lot of his ideologies.

52:23

It kind of put everything into focus and honestly put

52:28

Christ more into focus in my life. Well, I understood like, wow, this isn't gospel truth as I thought it to be.

52:37

This is probably just more tied to a personal arriving of its own. Yeah.

52:43

So, yeah, that's awesome. That's great. Thank you so much for coming on, Andrew. Any last thoughts on just this little boss podcast?

52:48

We kind of wrap up here at the call. We got a Q &A we got to do. So, no, I think I think the way Michael ended it right there is perfect.

52:55

Like awesome. That's the goal, right? Is for people to know Christ and to make Christ know for. Yeah, excellent. So if you guys enjoy this podcast,

53:01

I don't know what you thought. And hopefully we will see you all on the road next time whenever our next live event is.

53:08

I'm not sure when that will be. But we get out on the road every now and then out of our inner now. Every now and then has to get out of a secret, super secret headquarters.

53:15

I had to get out of Phoenix. It was 120 degrees. So I'm taking the humidity as an exchange. So all that being said, thank you all for listening in.

53:23

And we'll talk to you all next time on cultish. Talk to you guys soon. What's up, everybody? If you are blessed by this content and you want to support the gospel's proclamation to the cults while equipping the church to combat deception, then come join us and become a cultish all access member.

53:36

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53:45

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53:52

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54:01

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