Pat Pactum Abendroth Interview (Part 1)

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the Divine Trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

Brothers Reunited and the New York Trip

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. Mike Abendroth here with another Abendroth, Abendroth, Abendroth, Abendroth, Abendroth. Hey Mike. Patrick, welcome back to No Compromise Radio, live in the studio.

I know. What are you doing here, by the way? Hanging out with you. We just were in New York City, hanging out, doing a conference together. So it�s been fun, riding bicycles, recording episodes of No Compromise.

Soon we will record the Pactum. We were in New York City. I have one question, Pat. I know people are dying to ask you. After Just got a place in New York. All the New York songs flow through your head, U2, Sinatra, everything else.

Ramones. I thought Ramones first, when I first landed. 53rd and 3rd. I don�t even know. What about the city, though? After probably close to $100 million poured into the city, at least $82 million I think Tim Keller was trying to get.

Did it seem more redeemed to you, the city? We saw cockroaches and rats at the same time. That was the biggest cockroach I ever saw. I�ve seen bigger rats. I�ve heard of cats and dogs living together in chaos, but rats and cockroaches at the same time.

And that was uptown. That wasn�t downtown. Manhattan, right? Rats on the west side, bedbugs uptown. What a mess. This town�s in tatters. Cherubi. I�ve been shattered. My brain�s been scattered, is it?

I don�t remember. Splattered. All over. Over Manhattan. Uh-huh. Well, if you don�t know who Pat Abendroth is, he�s my brother. A bad singer. I think Tom Brady missed a bunch of practices because he had to do the mask singer.

You could do that. You could be the mask singer, and we reveal with the pactum. Okay. Same as it ever was. Pat, nine years younger than me, University of Nebraska. We both went there. We both went to the Master�s Seminary.

We both went to Ligonier for D-Mens. You got yours. I already had mine, so I just took a couple classes. Remember sitting watching Sinclair Ferguson from across the tables, and he�s got his pant leg pulled up above his knee, like scratching his leg.

It�s so funny because you think Sinclair Ferguson�s Scottish accent, sophisticated, Ligonier in the suit, preaching, and he�s got his big white grandpa leg hanging out, scratching it. No offense. I love Sinclair Ferguson, but it�s good to see people in their other environments.

Well, that makes me always think of these big shot pastors, and they�ve got five campuses, and you don�t know if you get the pastor live at the campus. You might get the band live, but not the pastor.

And then you only see their good side, right? I don�t want to see pastors sin. I don�t want the congregation to see me sin, but I inevitably will, and that�s why I need to be talking about Jesus because I�m not the model.

I�m not the priest. I�m not the king. I think it�s a good reason to have guest speakers come, so everybody gets to see that all this guy does is whine and complain, and we say, �You know what? We love them for their giftedness.

We love them for what they contribute. Oh, and there�s a high-maintenance speaker. Right. I keep interrupting you. I�m sorry. No, no. That�s okay. You�re going on and on about all of my accomplishments.

No, Pat. What happened was, before you were the host of your own podcast, I had to try to draw it out a little bit, but now you�re the pro. You know exactly what to do. I don�t know how to act. I�m not in the Pactam studio.

There�s no Pactam sofa. So let�s get to that in a second, though. You and I both pastor Bible churches. We do, even though we�re not dispensationalists. People are confused. So typically a Bible church, in my mind, is Dallas Seminary-inspired, elder-led-slash-ruled, four-point Calvinist, pre-trib, pre-mill, that kind of thing.

Is that right? Typical Bible church? I think that�s pretty normal. That�s what people tend to think. But there are some outliers, and we have a special mission, right? We�re being missional to people who are brethren-oriented Dallas Seminary people, and so we just win them over to biblical Christianity, covenant theology.

Well when I first thought, �Oh, do we change the name Bethlehem Bible and then now it�s just part of the culture and people just say BBC. Do people say Omaha Bible Church or do they say OBC? We�re OBCers?

I think if they�re in the know, eventually they say OBC for short. But typically I say Omaha Bible Church because I�m missional. But Bethlehem Bible Church used to be Bethlehem Baptist Church. It did.

It was a Baptist General Conference church similar to the denomination Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, Piper�s Church. So left-leaning, liberal-leaning, right? We left, I think, in 2000, Pat, because they were pushing Heibel�s church growth stuff.

They were saying it�s okay for women to be pastors, and who knows what else. We had a missionary, several missionaries from the Baptist General Conference. And I didn�t want to cut them just because we were dissatisfied with the conference.

That wasn�t going to be fair. So I wanted to know what they believed because I inherited them, and I sent out a letter with the elder�s approval, �Dear Missionary, we�re leaving the Baptist General Conference, we just want to know what you believe on this, this, this, and this, see if we line up.

And one guy said, �This is what we believe, here�s where we are different and I think we said, �Here�s a six-month severance kind of thing. We don�t match up. Here�s the punchline, though. The other guy we sent it out to, he said, �I know what you�re trying to do.

You can cut me now. And I thought, you know what? Everything in me wanted to go, �Wish granted. But we gave him three-month severance anyway. Interesting. Bethlehem Baptist Church. Used to be Baptist Church.

Yeah. Putting the Bible back in to Baptists. I think I�m good with our names, it�s fine. Okay. All right. So speaking of names, you have a podcast, I don�t know, maybe a hundred episodes or so short of that.

Getting close. Just by a few. Tell us about the name, The Pactum, where we can listen, why you decided to do it, etc. Okay. The Pactum, you can listen to The Pactum on all major platforms, I think. This last week when we were in New York City, people kept asking, �Is it on Spotify

I don�t know why that�s, because Spotify�s trending. Pat, my son Luke told me, �Dad, it�s got to be on Spotify, got to be on Spotify, everything Spotify. So I think we are now. Not all the shows, but maybe like the last ten or something.

Okay. So we do an episode every week, and it�s fun, it�s a lot of work. We call it The Pactum because I think that includes everything, because everything under the sun is under the banner of The Pactum, because everything that happens on planet Earth is related to the intra-Trinitarian covenant of redemption.

The Pactum Salutis. So that means we can talk about anything, we can talk about nature, we can talk about plants, we can talk about redemption. Everything that happens, happens because of God�s decree.

So that�s kind of nice that way, and it sounds cool, because it�s Latin and people are like, �The Pactum, easy to say, easy to remember, but what is that? What is it about So it just means the covenant of redemption.

Nice. How did you think of the name? Did somebody think of it for you? I mean, No Compromise Radio was Kim�s idea. Did Molly think of The Pactum? Let's just say she did. Because we have to be the same.

Every good thing comes from your wife. We have to be the same. Same schools. It probably was the fruit of a long bicycle ride, thinking, �What should we do And I wanted to start it, I guess, because I didn�t want to do a podcast because everyone and their mom�s sister�s dog has a podcast, it seems, and there are so many out there, but at the same time, might as well join in the fun.

And at the same time, this might sound arrogant, I don�t want it to, but as a stewardship issue, you know so much, there�s so much over the years that the Lord teaches you, and you can maybe make things clear, so let�s do a podcast and start helping people.

So we try to aim pretty, I don�t want to say low, but I want it to be accessible to anybody who wants to learn. So it�s not geared toward pastors, but we have a lot of pastors who listen, and thankfully a lot of pastors who utilize the pactum to help their people.

Pactum people. Pactum people. Part of the pactum verse. I just want our listening audience to know that I�ve listened to every pactum, but Pat hasn�t listened to every noco. Because there are like five million no-compromise episodes.

Speaking of the pactum. See, Mike makes it easy. He just records because he knows a lot of things and has a good memory. I like to beat my head against the wall to study and prepare and get things ready.

Someday, when I�m nine years older, maybe it�ll be easy for me. What happens to me though is I�ll say, �I�m not preparing anything. That was the R .C. Sproul deal. �How long did that sermon take you, Dr. Sproul

Five minutes in a lifetime. That�s kind of my shtick deal. But most of the time, it shows that I�ve not prepared. Just sitting down talking. I don�t think so. Well, when I have studio guests in, we�ve had audiences too, it�s almost like if you and I sat down and we talked about stuff, well, we wouldn�t have any problem talking for a half hour about the Lord, His Word, His people, theology, and so that�s just kind of what we do.

The Pactum Salutis and Accessible Theology

True that. Once in a while, I like to look at the message here on No Compromise, because you were talking about the pactum. And of course, I love Titus chapter 1, verses 1 to 3, because you begin to think about the pactum.

Right. God made a promise long ages ago. To whom did He promise? I mean, angels weren�t around, Satan wasn�t around. I wonder what Eugene Peterson might say. I don�t know. So this is live. Okay. This is unrehearsed.

It is. We heard the pages turning. �I, Paul, am God�s slave and Christ�s agent for promoting the faith among God�s chosen people, getting out the accurate word on God and how to respond rightly to it.

My aim is to raise hopes by pointing the way to life without end. This is the life promised long ago, and He doesn�t break promises. And when time was ripe, He went public with His truth. I�ve been entrusted to proclaim this message by order of our Savior, God Himself.

�Ripe� kind of sounded weird. I say this to Steve sometimes. I wanted that to be worse. It wasn�t so bad. It was ripe. So if people want to listen to Pactam, they can go on the podcast stuff, and then...

Easy to find everywhere. We have a website as well. Yeah, not hard to find the Pactam. You�d have to work hard to not find it. Okay. So you have somebody designing your hats and shirts and all that stuff.

Lots of Pactam gear. The Pactam gear just continues to populate the Pactam verse. It is. And you just gave me something else. Is that supposed to be talked about yet? Oh, coffee is coming. Yeah. I have Pactam coffee in my house now.

Specially brewed. It�s very special. Tenebrex Dark? Is that what it is? It�s Tenebrous. Tenebrous. So it�s dark. Yeah. Yeah, but do we have the right ending for Tenebrous to match with dark? Because I�m learning Latin, you know.

Yeah. I can�t help you out there. Sorry. I can�t. Yeah. Coffee�s coming. It�s a lot of fun. I don�t know what else I want to say. I don�t have it in front of me. I don�t have the good marketing in front of me to read it.

Right. But coffee, because we like coffee, and we couldn�t get a coffee sponsor, so we just did it ourself. Like it. Are you going to start doing YouTubes now? YouTube videos are on the way, so we�re going to start doing video because some people don�t do audio, so we�re here to meet people�s needs.

If they want to do video, we�re there for video. What will change? Because, you know, just while we were talking, I�m checking my email and doing other stuff and looking around. I think we�re going to have to be careful.

I think we�re going to have to sit up straight, and I�m going to make sure the sleep�s out of my eyes. No slouching. What else? You know, you look nice today, but I�m just kind of got almost like PJs on.

It�s Monday. It�s my day off. So you�re going to have to be careful. Look at the camera once in a while. Eye contact is important. Will you have two cameras set up, kind of like American Gospel television?

We�re going to do at least two cameras. Seriously? Of course. Wow. Whatever you do, you do well. This is the big reveal. So if you�re going to do it, it can�t be, you know, what, half cocked? Uh-huh.

I think they talk about the speed of the Internet. They call it half fast, and it�s almost like you shouldn�t be saying that. You don�t want something half fast, do you? All right. Let�s talk about something� I say contraire mon frere in a sermon one time, and it�s like the words�I could see the words coming out of my mouth, and I wanted to grab them because I thought, is it some kind of swear word?

And somebody assured me afterward that it�s not. Okay, good. Oh, contraire mon frere. I�ve said words that were acronyms in the military that I didn�t have any idea. And I don�t do that anymore. Let�s talk about something seriously, Pat, on a serious matter.

As I�m trying to take a picture. Uh-huh. He�s taking pictures. Oh, we also both went to Master�s Monarchs Elementary School that had nothing to do with Grace Church and Master�s Seminary, right? That�s true.

We went to Master�s, the Master�s Monarchs. K through, I don�t think you did K through six, because you went somewhere else first. I went to Laura Dodge for a couple of years. Who was Laura Dodge? I have no idea.

So you�re like Nathan Hale, somebody, some liberal. So Master�s, then Morton. I went to somewhere else for ninth grade. I can�t even remember. I went to Horseman. I got bussed twice. Uh-huh. Thank you, Jimmy Carter.

When you got bussed, forced bussing in Omaha, Nebraska, racial tensions were pretty high. You got bussed. Would it take you an hour to get to the other part of town? Pretty long time. Yeah. And didn�t you get in a lot of fights?

No. First bus driver that we had that would stop on the railroad tracks and say, �Until you second graders quiet down, we�re just going to sit here, and maybe a train will come. You�ve got to be kidding.

Our mom intervened, and he was no longer employed by the bus company. Seriously. I did not know that story. And then we had another bus driver that taught us the diarrhea song. That was fun, but somebody else ratted her out, and she left.

So many great things to learn. Well, now they can�t do anything because everybody, you know, kids are just masked up, right? You can�t have to wear a mask on the deal. Here�s what I wanted to talk about.

Christ-Centered Preaching and Reading the Old Testament

I wanted to talk about how we preach Christ in our sermons, and how both you and me, let�s see, how I and you, you and I, you and I, we were taught a� Thus the public school education. We were taught certain things.

Pat, I hate it when I say M-E-L-K for M-I-L-K. Milk. How do you say it? I say milk. Omaha, Nebraska. I don�t say milk. Milk. Pat, in all seriousness, and it�s probably happened to you as well, I think I have better grammar because I�ve been on the radio a lot, and when I hear the words in the headphones, I go, �Oh, that doesn�t sound right.

I think my better grammar comes from my wife. It�s not, �Where are we going to eat at We don�t end a sentence with �at. That�s like the most sanctified thing in my life when it comes to vocabularies, thanks to my wife.

When I first got to the church and I was trying to explain a difficult doctrine, and then I wanted to soften it a little bit to re-explain it, here�s the bold, brash, abendroth bomb, and then now I read it back a little bit, and I would always use this contraction.

I would say, �Alls I�m trying to say is this. That�s alls I�m trying to say. Alls. Alls. Where are we going to eat at today? Grammar�s probably better from being a preacher, so that helps. Getting converted helps a lot of things, as a matter of fact, because you read books.

What did Luther say in these last times God has revealed himself in Greek and Hebrew letters? People always say, �Well, I�m a visual learner. I think, �Well, you know what? To learn general revelation, good.

Not bad. Go for it. God teaches visually some things, but not everything. God likes pictures, right? Baptism, things like that, but written word. God likes pictures. He does. Does God like it if you have a picture of Jesus?

What�s your take on that? Well, I�m going to look and see if you have one on the wall over there to my right, but I digress. Well, let�s just pretend that Luther one over there. That�s right. Is it Chronic?

Yeah. Lucas Chronic? Yeah. That one, there�s Christ on the cross in between some people and Luther in a pulpit. The idea is supposed to be show Christ to your people. Right, but pictures of Jesus are blasphemous, so.

What do I do? We can have pictures of Lily, but not pictures of Jesus. Oh, a little Who reference there. There you go. What about when you go to St. Andrews? Remember R .C. Sproul�s, the building there that he made and it got all those pictures of Jesus.

Major pictures. Uh-huh. That one�s interesting. Yep. Uh-huh. Yeah. So, both try to do Christ-centered preaching. Where were you going with that? Well, I was just going to say, that�s a big thing these days.

We�re preaching through the book of Ruth, or I�m in Ecclesiastes now, or you�re in an Old Testament book, and let�s just say for Ecclesiastes, 12 chapters, and you did one chapter a week. Okay? That�s probably a little too fast, but let�s just say you did one chapter a week.

Yep, I tried to. Yeah. Nothing in there about Jesus. How do we do Christ-centered preaching? And here�s this book. Oh, we�re reading Esther on Sunday mornings now, chapter by chapter. God isn�t even mentioned in the book.

Right. So, what do we do? There�s a big battle between authorial intent, human author, divine author. Just talk about it in any way you should. Please. So, for sure there are people who say you shouldn�t even talk about God in Esther because the name�s not there, or people who say if you�re in Ruth, you shouldn�t mention Jesus.

Thankfully, there aren�t too many people like that, and thankfully, church history is filled with people who would say that�s ludicrous. If you�re a Christian, you talk about Christ. Why? Because there�s one divine author.

I was shocked when I heard someone who I used to look up to say basically the Bible is not a Christian book. Not basically. He said the Bible is not a Christian book, which is like Lulu Lulubin kind of crazy.

So, let�s just side with all Christians who�ve ever been Christians throughout history. The Bible is a Christian book, and so we believe that Christ should be talked about and thought about everywhere.

Why? Because the second person of the Trinity, before time began, again, the pactum, there�s a plan for redemption, and that�s before Genesis, so it would make sense that things would be leading to Christ even in Genesis.

So, we emphasize divine author, and yes, human author, so Paul�s vocabulary is different from Peter�s vocabulary. We can stress that, but one divine author. This is just crazy that we don�t pay attention to that, or we have to pretend like it�s not true.

I almost called you Steve, because I�m used to having Steve here. Tuesday guy. Your co-host is named Mike Grimes. It is Mike Grimes. And when you guys talk, you know, Pat and Mike, I�m always thinking about us.

Right. I don�t know. I was the original Mike. So, in the new coffee marketing, it�s just the way Pat and Mike like it. I know. It works. And I think the world revolves around me, so I interpret that to be Mike Apendra.

It works. Okay, so Walt Kaiser and others say things like, you know, you can�t look at later revelation to interpret earlier revelation. I don�t mean the book of Revelation, I mean as God is revealing himself.

And then I say to myself, but how do I know it�s even Satan in the garden when he�s not called Satan yet? I learn that later. Right. Right? Why are people doing such things? I mean, I look at, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

And the way I look at that now, Pat, when I think of God, and when I�m thinking rightly, I think Elohim the Father, Elohim the Son, Elohim the Spirit. God is the same. God is the same essence. There�s one will, one nature, three persons.

When you read God, Christian, you should read it with your mind saying, �Triune. The Trinitarian God. He didn�t become the Trinity at the Incarnation or something. Or when Progressive Revelation finally caught up to his being.

The Triune God. So thankfully, people like Walter Kaiser and others are inconsistent. There you go. That�s nice of you. So I�m thankful for that. Right? Why do they do what they do? They do it because their theology mandates that there is a future for geopolitical, religious Israel.

That�s why. Uh-oh. Right? So there has to be animal sacrifices in the future, and you have to have all this Israel-centric Bible reading. And I say it that way because if you dare to read the old in light of the new and the new in light of the old, Jesus is the substance.

Jesus is the fulfillment of these things. He�s the true son. He�s the last Adam. He�s the punchline. Read the book of Hebrews, and we�re not going to do regressive revelation, going back to the shadows, going back to Israel.

So it�s kind of a no-brainer, right? Hosea 11 .1, �Out of Egypt I�ve called my son. It�s Israel, but we get to the New Testament. Guess who�s the ultimate son? Israel�s the unfaithful son. Jesus is the faithful son.

�Out of Egypt I�ve called my son. It�s kind of a no-brainer. So I think it�s all not secretive ploy. The motives are secret, kept secret, but I�m going to say no to the dispensational craziness and go ahead and read the Bible in a Christ-centered way, like all Christians have throughout history.

Now does that allow you to see Romans 11, that there are going to be Jewish people saved? So my personal take on that would be there�s a future for Jews to be converted and believe in Jesus and become part of the church.

That�s why I said not geopolitical, like dispensationalists. I don�t believe in a geopolitical religious future where they�re distinct from the church. So the dividing wall that Jesus tore down with his crosswork should not be re-erected, which would be crazy anti-Christ.

So future for Israel, sure. Future for Jews, but they�re going to believe in Jesus, who is, by the way, called Christ because Christ means Messiah. The body of Christ, oh, body of Messiah. That�s the church.

Interesting, as you�re saying that, Pat, and I look at you and there�s the pactum hat, if you go back to the pactum and think, okay, in eternity past, or we just say in eternity because there�s no eternity past, but pre-Genesis 1, okay, one will and that will determines rescue the elect, and if that�s the Father�s will, rescue the elect.

The Son�s will, rescue the elect. The Spirit there attesting to the fact and saying, yes, rescue the elect. Who are the elect? Two different kinds of people? No, no, they�re the elect. Go rescue the elect.

And I think once you understand there�s one people of God, sometimes in Genesis there�s more Gentiles in the people of God on earth alive, and then sometimes you see in Moses day or in the land, the wilderness, there�s more Jews, and now you see more Gentiles.

There�s one people of God. Yeah. Isn�t there? In the book of Acts, it�s pretty clear that the authors or the preachers are saying it�s the same thing, same ultimately. So I think we kind of sound maybe kind of grumpy today.

You know what? I feel really good today. I�m not grumpy at all. You do? I feel kind of grumpy. But I�m snarling my upper lip a little bit about all this because it really is an attack on Christ. It really is an attack on the sufficiency of Christ, the preeminence of Christ.

I do think it�s anti-Christ to insist on going back and being regressive. So in one sense, I am upset about it. Okay. Well, in the old days, and if you read Ironside and some of these guys, a lot of Plymouth brethren, the church is the parenthesis, right?

So you have Israel, the church, and then Israel. And I think the better way to think about it is that Israel�s a parenthesis, right? For sure. So you have the church, you have Israel, and she�s done her job, right?

Right. Then the Messiah is birthed, and God has protected her and blessed and all this. And then the parenthesis is closed. Yeah, absolutely. Where are we going to eat at? All right. The show�s over. We�re going to do part two right after this, and it�ll probably play tomorrow.

Pat Abendroth, Omaha Bible Church, at the Pactum as well on Twitter. Thanks for being on No Compromise Radio.

Thank you for having me. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible-teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life-transforming power of God�s Word through verse-by-verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We�re right on Route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.