Review an anti-Calvinist video

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This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries

00:18

We are live Welcome back to Apologetics live and it's true and I'm flying solo today, but not really

00:28

Not really. We'll bring in our guests later And we're gonna have some fun

00:34

This this episode we're gonna have a lot of fun But beforehand before we get to that I want to remind you that apologetics live is a podcast ministry by striving for eternity

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Where we seek to answer your questions about God and the Bible now a few things if you would like to support striving for eternity

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Then go to info at striving for eternity dot -com

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Now before we get to our main subject today, I'm gonna bring in My host for my co -host for today since Andrew is not here

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Chris huff the other half of theology What's up, buddy? How you doing, man?

01:47

You know just living the dream. I knew you're gonna say that It working out in the hundred -degree weather

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Delivering packages driving a truck that has absolutely no air conditioning. Oh, man.

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Okay, it's It's what every little boy grows up Right, man, right

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Bro, it's it's it's it's been brutal with this heat man. Yeah, we're getting a nice. I mean where you are

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I know you're getting it to man. I sold my soul around the showers. So yeah, yeah little rain But okay, so let's let's do this in the news real quick, okay.

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All right, so Something's It's it's been in the news, but it hasn't really been in the news and it's the investigation of the mysterious

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Cocaine that was found like this wing of the White House. The investigation has ended

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Okay, they ended it and guess who the culprit was They don't know

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They actually don't know who brought it. I know

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I know Yeah Now but but this should be concerning very concerning for a couple of reasons

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So you have the most secure the most protected house in America Is all over the place you can go in there and you can get a picture of 35 different angles of your face

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All right, and not one of them was able to capture the person that brought this in. Yeah.

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Yeah, we call that a cover -up Yeah, yeah So you're just having random people walk in to the

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West Wing unmonitored just leaving illegal drugs Is that where we're at now? Not to mention there's video evidence of him on a balcony and you can very clearly see he put something on right here on his hand in the in the in the

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If you're ever grilling something and you want to know if it's done by the way you touch the meat if it feels kind of Like that's probably done right there in that spot.

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Yeah, he totally just turned away and it's like oh, yeah Okay, and then look at you know that you also see the doctor

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Jill Biden On her face is like Get this guy out of here, but I cannot believe you just did that right here right now

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Yeah, but I mean, but but what about fingerprints, right? There's no fingerprints on whoever left this

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Now it's just it Riddle me this. Okay, if this was any other investigation of any other person, do you think it would stop after two weeks?

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I mean, you just have to ask the question you go. Okay, if this were Donald Trump jr Or or you know previous administration's children

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And this were the case Absolutely not. Look at what they've done with the whole January 6th thing.

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And I mean it is all just a bunch of hogwash Yeah, yeah and this should make you mad because the

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FBI They they have plenty of time to arrest and investigate parents who attend

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PTA meetings Who are fighting for their children? But yet they give up this investigation after two weeks

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Well, I mean, come on the the FBI who and the federal government who will will send undercover agents

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To start protests to start issues You know, come on.

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It's it's And now the truth is like like you said the truth is we know who this belongs to okay, right

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They know who it belongs to we know who it belongs. It's no secret, but we clearly see

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The sin of partiality here. There is no equal justice. No, nope.

05:43

Nope Well, and I was just let me see if I can find this passage of Scripture That is a good reminder for us.

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I was I was looking at there it is second Chronicles 1907 let me pull it up real quick because this is this is a good one.

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This is a good reminder of for all of us I did that earlier too.

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I wrote second churn instead of second Cron So that doesn't work the second Chronicles 19 7 check this out.

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And this is of course, I'm reading from the LSB So you'll you'll notice you'll notice that right away verse 7 out of 2nd

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Chronicles 19 says so now then let the dread of Yahweh Be upon you be careful what you do because with Yahweh our

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God there is no unrighteousness or Partiality or the taking of a bribe

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And that's a fantastic reminder that that is who he is so, you know hunter

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Biden and the Bidens and the federal government can get away with that all they want on this side of eternity, but It just because we see injustice here temporarily temporarily and temporarily doesn't mean that there won't be justice eternally.

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So Yeah, yeah, that's right. That that is one thing that we do We have to remember.

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Yeah that the God we serve is a just God. Amen. So that while People may get away with certain sins.

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They may get away with crimes This side of eternity. Yeah, that doesn't mean that they'll get away with it on the other side

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They will have to answer to God for those things. That's it. That's it. That's it So, yeah, man, yeah, well speaking of in the news,

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I know we talked about talking about this offline But I just wanted to remind everybody that the essential church movie

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The full -length feature documentary by grace done by grace Community Church grace productions that That hits theaters nationwide

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July 28th And you can go to essential church movie .com

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that's just not the but just essential church movie .com and You can put in your zip code.

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It'll tell you which theaters around you are showing it There's over a hundred and seventy plus theaters that have added it.

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They're trying to get to a thousand They're trying to get to a thousand. I actually Interviewed Shannon Halliday who's the writer and director of the film?

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I interviewed him yesterday for matter of theology and we did an IG live and And he told me that what they're doing

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Lord willing is they're gonna be adding theaters every single day up until the 28th

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So in an order to get to a thousand they need to sell out as quickly as possible for the theaters that are already showing the film so I just sent you a screenshot because we were talking about it offline, but Here within you know, 25 miles of where I am there's now four theaters that are showing

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This film and AMC just picked it up some not all but some regal cinemas have it

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And they're they're wanting to just just just absolutely just blow this out now. I've seen the film.

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I saw it last week It is phenomenal. It takes you right back to what you what we all experienced three years ago during the plan

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Demick Not the pandemic the plan Demick and everything that took place and Shannon is

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You'll have to listen to the episode of the matter of theology episode will drop on Monday That interview with him and he gives a little background as far as his story, but he's a he's a storyteller and they did a phenomenal job with this and One of my favorite parts and I'll stop there because I want you guys to listen to the episode

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I want you to see the film but they show very clearly in a wonderful way how everything that happened to Grace Community Church to Grace Life Church and Edmonton James Coates Aaron Coates Tim and Raquel Stephens their church

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Everything that happened there is similar to what the Covenanters went through It's similar to what we saw during the

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Great Ejection And they tell some stories in there about some some things that happened throughout church history and they pointed out this key

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This key fact that whenever persecution and opposition comes against the church from an offensive standpoint

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Typically and mostly it's from government. It's from the state And so they do a phenomenal job at telling that story

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It's it clocks in at just over two hours like two hours and six minutes, but it does not feel like that It's gonna leave you angry and frustrated.

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It's gonna leave you Filled with courage and resolve. It's gonna leave you in tears at some moments to be honest

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So, yeah the essential church go check it out now He says my church is showing it this

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Sunday at 6 p .m Yeah, yeah the a lot of churches are

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I know Alex Rodriguez. He's the pastor of Outpost Bible Church in McHenry, Illinois They're doing there's

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Sunday night. I think Brandon and heritage Tulsa. I think he's doing I haven't talked to him about it Okay, I think he's doing

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Brandon scoff their heritage Tulsa and Tulsa, Oklahoma I think they're showing it Sunday night. So a lot of churches are doing that I know

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Tom Buck Church in Lindale, Texas is doing it a lot of places are Doing like a pre -screening before the film drops on the 28th and theaters everywhere.

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So But if your church is not showing it find a theater if not Recall the theater call it call your local theater and and and request that they that they carry it so and so yeah, it's it's great and but it's something that every believer needs to watch and Is a reminder for every believer as well to study church history because there's nothing new in the

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Sun, right? Now Jason Cave says MOT in the house. Okay matter of theology

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MOT and he also says Hello all Saints. Sorry. I'm late. God bless you GA Georgia brothers, that's it man talking about Georgia in the house.

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That's it Now let's bring it. We have a guest backstage. Come on the stream

11:56

What's going on hey, how are you good man, how are you good?

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Nice to meet you Nice to meet you. I've through I've seen you Chris. This is my first Encounter, but I've only been able to catch the show

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Several times gotcha. It's not Our Are you wanting to do you have a question or are you wanting to join in on our anti Calvinism video?

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Well, that's that's the video I sent to Andrew oh Yeah, okay,

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I got it the only reason I'm tucked into the back office here I guess I just signed on at the duck My buddy

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Who lives out in Oregon Sent that to me when we started talking back and forth about This issue and I watched that and I was just amazed and I'm like, wow

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Yeah, I told no one here. I had watched you guys on this show three times maybe before I watched that video and I it was so different Yeah, so when when

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Andrew sent me that this video I watched the first five minutes and I said we can do three shows on the first five minutes alone

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I got four minutes and 23 seconds in before I turn it off Yeah, there's so much to go over because there's so much of a misrepresentation

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That's taking place. And so so if you like you you're more than welcome to stay

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Stay in with us on our critique if you want to add anything or if you want you can hang out in the back

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It doesn't matter to us Yeah, I don't know. I I'm not sure

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I'm gonna have a ton to add. I watched it a Couple months ago it seems so it's not fresh in my head, but the whole feel of it and everything

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You know, I recently I was at a Calvary Chapel For about five to seven years.

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And so I just came to a church out here in Medina but it's called

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Medina Bible Church, and it's Very hermeneutically sound. In fact,

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I didn't even know much about hermeneutics. Our pastor wasn't Yeah, it was it was so it's been a an interesting learning curve because now

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I'm Growing in doctrine more and and sound theology, right?

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So it's been eye -opening And so I think I had gained enough ground over the past couple of years that when

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I saw that and listened to it That's so I'm not sure

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I can speak heavily into where you guys are gonna be able to take that So if you want to put me in the back, that's fine.

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And I can just listen along. Yeah yeah, so so I'll just I'll put you in the back and then if you have a

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Comment or you want to come in and say something just put it in the private chat and we'll bring you in to yeah Appreciate the review too.

15:14

This is great. That's why I ran upstairs and I was like Next week because I will be working

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I think if you take three shows I'll hopefully be able to go next week. Well good thing because next week we're not gonna we're not gonna be covering this

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Video, but we are gonna have to break this this video up into several shows

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But next week is actually gonna be with Jim Osmond So Jim Osmond is gonna be here and they're gonna be talking about another video about prophecy

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So so so you won't miss You won't miss anything next week.

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Well, you'll miss Jim and it's always great to watch Jim in work, but But you won't miss anything as it pertains to this video

16:01

Great, then I'll catch the following week. I'll be on vacation, but I'll I'll have Wi -Fi and I'll be able to Set an alarm and hope

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I hear it when it rings. So Yeah, great awesome, okay, well

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I'll put you backstage okay, man All right, Chris. Are you ready to get into this video?

16:23

Sure sure send it. All right. All right, we're gonna we're gonna do it. I hope everyone's ready

16:29

Let's uh, yeah, and like I said, I Mmm, I got I got four minutes and 23 seconds and I was texting

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Drew. I was like, I can't I just I can't we can We can we can we can stop right here

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But all right, man, go for it. All right. Well, so so first just just to set some some context

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This is from the podcast the forest and the trees podcast. Okay The host of this podcast is

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Jeff Kane and you're gonna see and hear from Jeff. He's got Really long hair a really high -pitched voice and a mustache and some thick glasses

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I don't know anything about him so I can't speak to anything Regarding what you might think of him and then this guy here on the screen

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Jeremy Jernigan and then their guest is

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Greg Boyd Now there's there's a lot of problems with Greg Boyd. I know in the past.

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Dr. James White has covered a lot of his stuff so So yeah, there's there's issues with Greg Boyd and and you're gonna see it in this video it's

17:38

I Had a headache when I first watched it and I and I thanked Andrew for sending me that video and putting me in a headache

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But really I should be Eric for sending it Thanks a lot buddy, but let's get into this send it to Romans chapter 9

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Which is the doozy of a chapter and we're gonna explore Whether Paul and God are

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Calvinists now. Yes, they are. By the way, I Was just about to say stop

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Full stop They're going they're gonna be going over Romans chapter 9 The problem is I don't know that we're gonna make it far enough into the video where they actually

18:21

Text I don't think we'll try. We'll try. All right Okay, if you're not familiar with Calvinism, this is also referred to as Reformed theology.

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This is the belief that things are Predetermined by God some would say

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God decides who is saved who is not saved others would say that God causes everything and Calvinism really emphasizes the sovereignty of God and the authority of the of the

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Bible Stop. Yes I'm okay.

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I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm not trying to be facetious I'm not trying to to patronize this brother.

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I don't know this guy. I want to be respectful You know, but everything he just stated is biblical right

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God is sovereign overall God has predestined and predetermined any and all things and everything that will ever happen to think

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Otherwise is you don't know God, right? Jason Cave says that should be the video.

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I Agree, I I agree. I this is just know Everything that that guy just stated in the opening of the podcast is absolutely who

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God is and how he operates. So Right, yeah, so just what you said what he just said is true and it our

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Position the reformed position emphasizes the sovereignty of God and the authority of the Bible because the

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Bible is our Foundation for why we believe what we believe, you know, we actually take 2nd

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Timothy 3 verses 16 and 17 seriously. Yeah All right, so I actually take

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Psalm 19 7 through 14 very seriously that the law of Yahweh is perfect That's our starting point if it's not start over right?

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Yeah so so scripture is where we get a Proper understanding of ourselves and of our nature a proper understanding of God and his holiness

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We we get the understanding of what he desires We get a proper understanding of Christ and his works well, we get the the presentation of how sinful rebellious people

20:45

Come to know a holy God, what's the most important question? What is the most important question that anybody made in the image of God must answer?

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Before they take their last breath here on this side of eternity How do

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I? Know go ahead. I was gonna say what comes to your mind when you think about God.

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Okay. Yes. Yeah. Yes Yes, absolutely, right tozer, but then also And and I would say that let's let's add this to that as well is

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What must sinful man do to be made right with a holy and righteous

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God? we all have to Reconcile that Philippians tells us that one day every knee will bow

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Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and you will either confess that in fear

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Filial fear on this side of eternity or You will confess that as you are experiencing the unbridled wrath of that holy and righteous

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God for eternity in hell That's what the scriptures teach

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You can't get around that as much as these guys try to Yeah, but but you you

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Okay we believe in the sovereignty of God because number one the

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Bible teaches it and number two if God is sovereign over All right, or let's say it this way if God is not sovereign

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Overall, then he is a lesser God and he is not worthy of worship. Yep.

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He's not the God of the Bible He's not the creator of the universe He is a little G God a false G God and that's who these guys believe in As you will see very very quickly

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Yes, let's go on and this is something that I I'm personally a fan of open theism and great or Jeff my friend who

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Does the podcast was teasing me and in preparation of this going? I can't wait to get to Romans 9 and I thought

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Why don't I bring in my mentor who has shaped my theology on this and we'll just ask him questions

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So we are stoked to welcome my theological mentor to weigh in on this debate, mr.

23:05

Greg Boyd welcome Greg Okay, let's Open theism.

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All right. I was gonna say define that for us. Yeah, so this is the idea that God is not

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Sovereign that he does not know the future. The future is Open right rather than determined So God does not know the future he is waiting to see what happens and then he responds or really he reacts

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To what happens, right? So he's not in learning. Yeah. Yeah. He God is learning

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He's taking in knowledge and then he has to respond to the to what he has just learned

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And so you what you'll actually see is later in this video Greg Boyd here

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Says that Romans 9 teaches open theism whole

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Right. We call that hermeneutical gymnastics. I'm glad you said that because later

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I have a note about that Nice. Well, here's here's something else too for for those listening to the show now and then and then obviously for anybody listening to the podcast later you will often hear those who profess faith in the

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Lord Jesus Christ those who Maybe Believe in some of the doctrines of grace and and and you'll hear people describe predestination

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And the foreknowledge of God in this way, they'll say this. Well, well, this is the way predestination works they'll say that that God looks down through the tunnel of time and Sees that he knows who's gonna choose him.

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And so he saves them and chooses them in return That's open theism

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That's just another facet of it and that is not what the scriptures teach at all just turn to Ephesians 1

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Yeah, if that's if that's your view Okay, if you say God looks down the corridor of time and then based on your decision he then predestines you so God then took in knowledge.

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So he learned something. So he's not omniscient, right? He's not all -knowing But if he looked down the corridor of time and saw that you wouldn't choose him and then created you anyway

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Knowing you were going to go to hell and there was nothing he could do about it. Now, he's not all powerful

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So so with open theism, you've destroyed God's omniscience and you've destroyed

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God's omnipotence So he is no longer God. Yeah. Yeah Yeah But and before you before you keep going and brothers and sisters, this is very very this is a textbook example of what it means to Approach the scriptures with a framework instead of gathering your framework from the scriptures as you as you now listen to it because Greg is about to get into it and say a bunch of as Chris Honholtz would say gobbledygook

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You're about to hear it and you're about to hear how dangerous it can be to not

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To to not keep the windshield wipers on when it comes to your mind when you approach the scriptures not

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Approaching the scriptures with a preconceived framework and then you go to the Bible to try to prove it But to look at what scripture teaches and go that's my doctrine period period

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So just keep that in mind as we as we proceed. Yeah It's good to be here. Thanks for having me on Jeremy So he if you're only listening to this you're gonna have to pull up the video at some point cuz

26:42

Greg is rocking some red Glasses. Oh, yeah, we were just commenting how good he looks

26:48

Look, you know, I still haven't found what I'm waiting for Wow so much singing today

26:55

Yeah, so what's your song Jeremy so much music? Well, if you don't know

27:01

Greg he is a An incredible Theologian he's also the pastor.

27:07

He's really not. Well, he is. No. No, he is Theologian for the devil for the devil.

27:13

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay. I was gonna say he's not an incredible terrible deal is

27:20

Incredible theologian when it comes to as God really said, right? Yeah.

27:25

Yeah the hiss of the serpent as you like Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah Sir of Woodland Hills Church, which he helped to co -found many years ago.

27:33

He is the author or co -author of 22 books and counting that's the last count

27:39

I have He's been married to an amazing woman named Shelly for more than 30 years.

27:44

She is 30 we're going on 45 dude. Are you oh, yeah 44.

27:50

You're older than I thought Just An incredible guy and this is just fun because Romans 9 is hard and Jeff and I are just gonna let it rip and Greg has helped me so many times

28:06

So we feel like this is gonna be a fun if you can read Romans 9 and not be a

28:11

Calvinist We're gonna we're gonna see if it's possible today The only way you can do that is by hermeneutical gymnastics.

28:19

Yep Finding a way around what the text actually says in order to make it say something that it doesn't mean correct

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That's the only way you can do that. So when he says Romans 9 is is is hard It's not hard if you take it at its plain reading.

28:35

Yeah, it's actually very clear. It's very clear Crystal clear and I know they say that later

28:42

I wish Paul would have I'm not kind of giving it away, but I don't know if we're gonna get there But you know, I wish Paul would have been more clear yeah, he was and by the way if you have a new

28:52

American Standard or an LSB you can clearly see how many times Paul quotes the Old Testament in wanting to be as crystal clear as possible when it comes to God choosing vessels of wrath versus vessels of destruction.

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That's right. Yeah, Kathy here says They are denying the text. Amen, Kathy absolutely

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Possible Only if God's predestined it to be possible. Otherwise, we're sunk. Ha ha ha we hear that It's an old joke that just it's even older Well fun fact too.

29:32

I felt like this is worth throwing in there I think a lot of people who know you don't know this little tidbit. You actually were a

29:38

Calvinist at one point in your life that's Okay. Now we we hear this a lot.

29:45

Mm -hmm We hear this the criticism from the former Calvinist Okay It's I know

29:54

I know it has been covered on this show before because I know Andrew and I have talked about it But those who claim to have been

30:01

Calvinist at one time and are no longer Calvinist Never truly were to begin with.

30:06

Nope, and we can tell this Because they always just seem to misrepresent the position.

30:14

Yep when everyone says Whenever anyone says

30:20

I'm a former Calvinist Red flags should go up. Yeah Anything that or you want me to keep going?

30:30

Yeah, I'll keep going That's true for a couple years Well in seminary,

30:35

I've always told people that I Totally get how someone exegetically can be a

30:41

Calvinist Yeah I Mean keep going keep going.

30:49

Let me because think about that statement. I Understand how someone can exegetically be a

30:57

Calvinist. I want to say argument over How else how else are we going to gain our theology if not exegetically

31:09

Oh, bro, you're wrong for that one Okay Real quick, let's go over some of these particulars.

31:19

Okay Exegesis is simply drawing out from the text, right?

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It's coming from the text. So the text provides Information and then we are pulling out that information from the text now the opposite of that is eisegesis

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Reading into the text something that's not there. So for example Open theism that God is not sovereign and he does not know the future

31:47

Okay, you have to impose that on the text because it's not there, right?

31:53

Oh, so he mentions Romans 9, right? That's the whole thing about this show, right?

31:58

They're going over Romans 9 well, we can just We don't have to stay in Romans 9 if we just back up one chapter to Roman 8 we destroy the idea

32:09

Of open theism, right just yes about the golden chain of redemption. Yep for those whom

32:15

God foreknew He also predestined. I mean It seems like God knows the future and especially those who would be saved.

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That's right. That's right Things out here. Absolutely. Well as scripture tells us right for ordained that means he has set everything in motion

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Nothing happens apart from his sovereign will and control and permission

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Nothing apart from that and for someone to say I exegetically see why you can be a

32:47

Calvinist why you can believe that that there are are those that God has created and as vessels of wrath and those to whom he's created as as vessels of righteousness because of the finish to get the completed and ongoing work of the

33:00

Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins if You if you can see that exegetically argument is over at this point.

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We're just talking your opinions, right? It's that's all it is. It's Greg Boyd's opinions chapter 1 verse 2.

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That's all it is You can't what to say something like that is so asinine and completely undercuts any and everything else

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You're gonna say in opposition to Romans chapter 9 Confirming along with like you said

33:32

Romans 8 Ephesians 1 Ephesians 2 the whole the whole Gospel of John the whole

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Bible period right period go back to the fall What did what did

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God promise? The the seed of the woman exactly ahead of the serpent the gospel the proto

33:51

Evangelium, thank you. Thank you. It's at this at this point at this. This is what you're hearing today

33:58

I was listening to I was listening to Martin Lloyd -Jones and a sermon entitled the anger of the

34:04

Lord where he was exegeting as Martin Lloyd -Jones does Isaiah 5 the most important text in all of Scripture Right, then where he talks about the wrath of God and and this is

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That's right. Isaiah 5 25 and and listen listen to this. Isaiah 5 25 says on this account

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The anger of Yahweh has burned against his people and he is stretched out his hand against them and struck them down and the

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Mountains trembled and their corpses lay like refuse in the middle of the streets for all this his anger is not turned back but his hand is still stretched out and Lloyd -Jones said he very clearly said that if you don't understand the wrath of God the wrath of God Then you don't understand the cross right, you can't if you don't understand the doctrine of the wrath of God and why that's important and you don't operate

35:02

Practically and pragmatically in your life everything you think everything you say and everything you do if you don't operate in A like I already said at once the filial fear of God Because of the wrath that has been absorbed by Christ in your place on the cross.

35:17

You don't understand the atonement You are not a believer right Period you can't get the atonement wrong

35:26

You can't profess faith in Christ and say you believe in God and believe what the scriptures teach

35:32

Oh, by the way, Greg Boyd, like you said to me earlier that he thinks the Bible has errors Obviously, he wrote a book.

35:39

You can't do that and possess Faith in Christ, right? Yeah, you can't yeah in in open theism

35:46

You have no reason to believe the promises of God that he knows He's not omniscient.

35:53

He's not omnipotent and he's not powerful enough to carry it. Oh, no. Yeah. Nope. So So I've got

36:01

I've got some some verses here that just talk about God's sovereignty or his all -knowingness

36:08

Okay, so Psalm 139 verse 4 Even before there is a word on my tongue behold.

36:16

Oh Lord, you know it all Isaiah 46 10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done saying my

36:28

Purpose will be established and I will accomplish all my good pleasure

36:34

Job 14 5 his days are determined and the numbers of His his month is with you and his limits you have set so that he cannot pass

36:50

Seems like God knows When my days are up.

36:55

Yep What else do we have Ephesians 2 verse 10

37:01

For we are his workmanship traded in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand

37:08

So that we would walk in them John 16 13, I really love this one

37:13

I know that means you John 16 13 But when he the Spirit of truth comes he will guide you into all truth for he will not speak on his own

37:24

Initiative, but whatever he hears he will speak and he will disclose to you.

37:30

What is to come question? How does the Spirit know what is to come if God does not know the future right, right?

37:38

Here's a here's one Isaiah 66 starting in verse 1 thus says Yahweh heaven is my throne and the earth is the footstool of my feet

37:45

Where then is a house you could build for me? And where is a place that I may rest for my hand made all these things thus all these things came into being declares

37:57

Yahweh But to this one I will look to him who is humble and contrite of spirit and who trembles at my word.

38:07

I Entire book of Revelation Okay, look whether you're a post mill and all mill a pre -mill doesn't matter it doesn't matter you believe

38:17

John wrote Prophetically to an audience about things that would take place.

38:23

Yes, they were yet future So should we trust the book of Revelation is it

38:30

God knowing the future, right? Just I mean, it doesn't take much to just think about these things.

38:39

No, no I mean, we've been how long we've been doing this just looking at this Not all maybe not long and these things are these are just on the top of our head.

38:51

Yeah All right, let's uh, let's get back to it Do we have to Romans 9 in a classic case?

38:58

I mean, that's kind of the locus classicus of Calvinistic thinking and actually it's not the entire locus classicus of reformed thinking

39:09

Let me just tell everybody to Get very far in this video.

39:15

No, he sent me this video what an hour and 40 minutes ago I was still kind of working.

39:21

I watched four minutes of it. I have not seen his notes He has not seen mine, but we were exchanging text messages back and forth.

39:27

He's like, yeah, I've already got that in my notes so I was like That's that's funny so go ahead I Didn't have alternative ways of getting around that.

39:35

Okay. Okay. I love this part because he says X right remember

39:41

Exegetically, I understand how someone can be a Calvin. He repeats it. He repeats it here in a second. Yeah I understand right how someone can get that exegetically it

39:52

That's the text for Calvinist and I didn't have any other way around it what he's meaning to say

39:58

Is that I don't like what the text says. Mm -hmm. Therefore. I need to think of another way besides exegesis

40:08

That's what he's saying. I can't pull up pull it out from the tech because when I pull out from the text It says what it says

40:15

Calvinism is true. So I must find another way around What the text actually says?

40:23

Yeah, keep going So I I totally get why people are

40:29

Calvinist from an exegetical point of view But I've never quite got is how anyone could enjoy it.

40:34

Okay, cuz While I was it I didn't like it, you know Perfect.

40:40

I'm glad you actually stopped there instead of when I said stop because that That's it right there in Greg Boyd Andy Stanley Bethel Bill Johnson These examples right here, this is it

41:02

I Mean me. Yes, Jason Cave just nailed it. Okay For Greg Boyd for Andy Stanley for those people like that who deny the inerrancy infallibility

41:14

Authority and the sufficiency of Scripture Here here's why they do because they don't know

41:20

God one and most importantly They are their God their opinions their feels their emotions their overly pragmatic seeker sensitive is overly sentimentalized faith in The devil and the doctrine of demons is what drives them not the

41:44

God of the Bible and not the Bible You heard it there. I Understand I get it and agree with the fact that you can exegetically

41:54

Come to a place where you understand Calvinism now. I want to I want to pause it They're gonna they're gonna demonize that word

42:00

Calvinism and Calvin But just as a reminder John Calvin would roll over in his grave if he knew there was anything like this named after him

42:09

He didn't want his own name on his own headstone. That was not John Calvin The doctrines of grace is what he's denying.

42:18

He is denying total depravity. That's what he's doing He is denying Limited atonement.

42:24

He is denying predestination. He is denying the gospel because he doesn't like it

42:30

I don't understand how you can be a Calvinist and enjoy it.

42:36

I don't understand I didn't like it Well, guess what bud? No one cares what you like What does the

42:44

Bible teach Yeah, you that's right. Greg. Greg Boyd is a slave to Greg Boyd Greg Boyd is a slave to his true father the devil

42:57

Can you not hear the hiss of the serpent? Right? I I see how you can get there by reading the scriptures

43:03

But no, no, no. No, how can you enjoy that? I'll tell you how I can enjoy it Here's how

43:08

I enjoy it I enjoy it by going waking up every morning and before my feet hit the floor saying God Thank you for another day.

43:14

And thank you for choosing me in spite of my own depravity in spite of my own sin

43:19

Thank you for giving me the faith in the ability to repent. Thank you for saving me and sanctifying me positionally

43:27

Thank you for strengthening me showing me the dis the grace of your discipline So that I'm sanctified more and more into your image each and every day, even though I don't deserve it

43:37

All I've done to quote Steve Lawson is run as far away from God as I possibly can as fast as I possibly can

43:45

With the sin necessary to be forgiven. Yeah, because that's how you enjoy it

43:51

This is nonsense And this is why I could not get past this moment because i'm like no arguments done

43:59

Anything else he's gonna say about romans chapter 9 from this point forward Is poppycock it's nonsense han holtz is here.

44:08

It's gobbledygook It is the doctrine of demons period. Yep now when he when

44:15

I heard him say I don't understand how anyone can enjoy it.

44:21

My first thought was well, that's a non -argument Because there's things that I read that I don't particularly enjoy

44:28

But I believe them to be true because they're in the world Right, right the the idea of hell and there being a hell and people go there to suffer for eternity

44:40

Yes, I don't Do we lose drew?

44:51

You're back there was a delay but there was a delay Oh great, man. Our internet is getting crazy, dude

44:59

But I enjoy god And I trust god his thoughts are higher than my thoughts his ways are higher than my ways

45:07

Okay, I don't know everything Thing that god knows but I trust that the god of the universe will do what is right according to his will

45:16

According to his purpose and according to what brings him glory Our job is just to be faithful with what he has given us to do namely

45:25

Proclaiming the gospel of christ to a lost and dying world and then we trust god for the increase when

45:31

I hear When I hear him say this I'm reminded of uh of this quote from j vernon mcgee

45:41

He said it's god's universe And god does things his way Yes, you may have a better way

45:48

But you don't have a universe That's good well and what he's doing here what he's doing is

45:56

He is accusing god of unrighteousness Mm -hmm. That's what he's doing. He's so romans 9 14.

46:03

What then shall we say or what shall we say then? Is there any unrighteousness with god? May it never be megan oita in the strongest way.

46:11

No, no no What you know for he says to moses I will have mercy on whom

46:17

I have mercy and I will have compassion On whom I have compassion So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs but on god who has mercy who are we?

46:29

Who is up? Who are we the the the clay pots to say to the potter? You can't do that, right?

46:35

He's accusing god of unrighteousness. He is blaspheming the name of god period

46:41

He's taking the lord's name in vain period any anybody who Espouses this nonsense like this and like what andy stanley does that's exactly what they're doing

46:55

Oh That's right It's like I gotta believe this but I I never got into that, you know

47:02

Oh for the glory of god, you know, he he chose me and and he could have chose anyone but he chose me and as long as there's some people who are

47:13

Predestined not to get it. Uh that I can't enjoy getting it. It's like, you know, i'm glad I got

47:19

Of all the starving people in the world I get to have this feast But right outside the glass window are all these other starving people who are not elect

47:26

And i'm supposed to enjoy my dinner while they're looking in starving, you know, and then he asked the the host was jesus christ

47:32

Hey, can we share some of this salvation food with these people that are starving? He goes no You see well, is it because there's not enough to go around?

47:39

Oh, there's plenty to go around I could I could save everybody if I wanted to But it glorifies me more just to choose you.

47:45

Okay. I have so much to say here. Oh my gosh, man Okay, first of all this idea this far this is crazy this idea

47:54

Of of a feast right and everyone's outside and the and it's as if they want to come in to they don't

48:02

They don't romans chapter 3 verse 10. There is none righteous not even one

48:09

There is no one who understands there is none who seek for god So the natural man is not seeking salvation, right?

48:18

We go out and we share the good news Okay. Hello Uh great commission.

48:24

We're not just correct sitting on our hands And and saying well, why can't I go out? No, the the person throwing the feast is the one who has commanded you to go out.

48:34

Yes the problem isn't that People are starving and jesus says you can't share your food the food of salvation

48:41

The problem is that when you present To them the glorious food of salvation on the platter of a blood -stained cross the people slap it away because they don't want

48:52

That's right. They love their sin. I mean what in the world is is he even talking about here?

48:57

Yeah, well, I mean going back to romans 1 bro, you know for for this reason god gave them over for this reason God gave them over and just as they did not see fit to acknowledge god.

49:07

God gave them over to an unfit mind They are moving in the direction that they've chosen

49:13

Right. That's what they want. And so god has said Romans 1 we we did this on matter of theology.

49:18

We went through romans 1 god has said fine That's what you want. You want the creation instead of the creator and you will not acknowledge god

49:26

But you're trying to suppress the truth And unrighteousness god says fine go

49:33

He gives me a hearty shove in that. Absolutely. Absolutely He Those in hell chose to be there

49:42

That's what they want. Yep. Now some may say well chris, what about what about you know, the story in luke, right?

49:49

Where go go and tell my family go go and you know with the and What what about that?

49:56

Well that that again? They chose to be there that like and jesus responds and that they're not going to believe

50:04

They're not going to they don't want to And oh so this this kind of wow, bro, yeah you this

50:11

Yeah, here's what what chris honholt says I can't see Uh, he says they would rather eat foul decaying putrid goop than receive the blessed peace

50:23

That god provides. That's right. Amen. That's it 100 yep

50:30

And so you enjoy the dinner while those folks starve to death Oh, by the way, they folks starving to death One of them might be your little daughter or little son or your spouse or some other loved one

50:40

But but at least you got saved so enjoy yourself for the rest of eternity while they suffer so the idea being

50:47

This is absolutely ridiculous Absolutely ridiculous and You just mentioned romans 1.

51:00

Mm -hmm, right? forget going through chapter 9 And and we need to start at romans 1 absolutely, right because there we see paul's indictment against humanity

51:13

And that they are under sin But if we just look at verses 18 and following What happens well just just to verse 20

51:24

You've said it they suppress the truth and unrighteousness as verse 18 The power of god is evident to them because god has made it known to them that's verse right

51:34

They reject his divine attributes and They are without excuse verse 20.

51:41

So let me say that again They are without excuse and then as you so eloquently put it the rest of romans 1

51:51

Is god giving them exactly what they want you want to go verse verse 21

51:57

Let's read verse 21 for even though they knew god They did not glorify him as god or give thanks, but they became

52:07

Feudal futile in their thoughts and then and their foolish heart was darkened

52:16

They knew what they were doing We all do We are all living according to our nature

52:24

Outside of the sovereign saving Wondrous grace and works of the lord.

52:30

Jesus christ for the forgiveness of sins Yep as your guys head starting to hurt yet because uh mine is

52:39

Mine's really hurting and it's not because of my hat Yeah, god has chosen

52:48

Some people and you and you get to enjoy that you you have to enjoy that with the acknowledgement that then

52:53

God has sent others to hell and there's nothing they can do and that's it. That's it In some ways it feels like that it began to me you know, and maybe i've had one person tell me that I I was predestined not to be a calvinist because I you know,

53:08

If you can't get into it, you can't get into it. Like I I just can't and you know I I could never enter into that, you know, oh the joy of the elect and he's altogether beautiful and altogether lovely

53:19

It's like well, it'd be a lot lovelier if you would save everybody you could save Okay, first of all god's not required to save anyone

53:28

No And he's putting himself in judgment of god again. He's accusing the lord of unrighteousness.

53:34

He's doing exactly what romans 9 14 says Right not to do. Yeah. Yeah, we all deserve the wrath of god

53:40

And so it's only by his grace and his mercy that he even saves one which is the point when you get into Romans chapter 9 it talks about jacob and esau not why did

53:54

Why did uh god hate esau, but why did he love jacob? Why did he he show grace and mercy on jacob?

54:01

It's because of his name his love and his grace So if grace can be demanded as greg is basically saying here

54:11

Then it's no longer grace. It then becomes an entitlement at that point

54:17

Well, and and again tell me you don't understand atonement Tell me you don't understand the wrath of god and tell me you don't understand grace.

54:23

I mean Paul paul clearly breaks this down verse 22 of romans 9 and what if And and what if god wanting to demonstrate his wrath?

54:31

And to make his power known endured with much patience vessels of wrath Having been prepared for destruction and in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy

54:42

Which he prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he also called

54:48

Not from among jews only but also from among gentiles. So here's here's a good way to think about that, right?

54:54

Number one None of us deserve salvation If you are a if you profess faith in christ and you think you deserve that because god created you

55:06

We need to have a bigger conversation Because you don't That's the

55:12

That's why it's called grace Yeah, that's why it's called mercy Because you don't deserve it

55:20

You deserve what christ experienced. I deserve what christ experienced on my behalf

55:26

Yep, and if you think if you think you deserve that Here and this is a hard pill to swallow you were talking about this earlier

55:33

I love god and there are so many things about the lord that are that is absolutely mysterious

55:40

You know, um scripture is a well a well so shallow that even a child can understand it

55:46

But it's a well so deep that even the sharpest mind will never plumb the bottom of that. Well You know, but but each you're a parent i'm a parent

55:54

There's a lot of people listening to this that everybody has loved ones None of us want our loved ones to be those those vessels of wrath that mark that that the lord is marked out for destruction

56:05

But we have to understand that that's not up to us to decide And we have to accept that And if you can't again, we need to have a bigger conversation according to what the scriptures teach

56:20

Grace is not so amazing. Grace is not so so just Unfathomable If it can be demanded right at that point, it's not grace

56:30

Right. Yeah What i'm hearing greg say here is that if god can save anyone then he should save everyone

56:39

Right that would that would be a lovely god to him. Well, no Because then jesus would have died in vain, right?

56:47

Yes. So now let's enter into greg's reasoning Here, let's get into his line of reasoning.

56:53

Okay If god can save without a cross Then or if god can save with a cross then he'd be a lot lovelier if he could save without it

57:03

Right because then jesus wouldn't have had to die So so so at that point let's just completely get rid of god's justice his righteousness his holiness all together

57:13

And let god just save but I digress well,

57:20

I mean Where is it in romans bro? I'm trying to find it and I can't right now Where is it in romans where it talks about that?

57:27

We are saved by god from god If if you can and somebody in the chat can throw it in there, um, if you can if you can have grace and mercy and salvation apart from the blood a blood -stained cross

57:45

That that if anybody ever tries to tell you that that is not christianity. That is not biblical orthodox christianity

57:53

Um, it's not and I want to say it's romans six Well, let's bring in eric eric says eric said he had a question i'll find it i'll find it why eric comes in um

58:08

I was an atheist And then I was an agnostic and then I became a christian at age 32 and I came into this secret church with purple lights and smoke and Topical sermons and I was there for years and in all honesty guys

58:26

I don't think I could have made it going to the church. I met now. I would have walked out Well, maybe not this church

58:33

I couldn't have understood it at all but Going to a lutheran church with the robes and the gowns and all that and so it's been a long process for me

58:42

But I used to be harminian I realized that I just have to confess that and so when i'm listening to all this this is

58:49

Just stunning this argument that just started argument between the guys at the church.

58:55

I left before which was a calvary chapel Chapter by chapter verse by verse word by word he goes through the old testament on wednesdays the new testament on sundays

59:04

My pastor was incredibly fast speaker. So it was super hard to follow him I Have adhd it was very difficult.

59:13

I grew a lot. I grew out of that initial church, I grew into this biblical church and now i'm in a church that is incredible, but When I listen to this this this this argument amongst the texting from my old church i'm still in their group and every once in a while I Screen what's going on and it was about this issue.

59:35

It's just so funny that it came up and so here Here's what I want to say and you guys can help me with this is

59:42

I get it. I understand and I I feel the conflict and I I feel bad saying this because i'll sound like an idiot but here it goes

59:54

All of those who come to me were drawn by the father, right? No one can come. That's right unless the father draws them

01:00:00

Amen, and and and I said to my wife not all that long ago Why do you think it is that we were saved

01:00:07

I mean Why do you think that is and and and I look at my mom and dad who can't accept doctrine scripture

01:00:16

They make up their own god It's all in their head It's the bobblehead jesus on the dashboard

01:00:22

And I said, I I think it's because we're okay with god being god, you know, and it's it's like I I understand that he has hard things

01:00:31

And and I I still love him and I accept him and I said I just wonder if that's when he looks at you but yet He created you he wired you that way.

01:00:43

So when God draws people to himself He created them

01:00:51

Exactly the way they are knit these people together in their mother's womb From a

01:00:58

It's an experiential part On our standpoint that we chose god

01:01:03

I chose god when I I have that experience So that's the way it looks to me But if you're looking from outside of time if you are sitting over god's shoulder, we all know that's impossible

01:01:12

You would see that there's a coke Two people going on there, right?

01:01:17

There's you accepting and Agreeing Agreeing that christ is your lord and savior and there's god drawing you it's a two -way street without right choice

01:01:27

You are responsible for making that choice But I see where these people want to go

01:01:34

It's hard to understand why god would wire somebody in a certain way and then not call them

01:01:41

And I understand we're all sinners. We're all depraved And And so all of us would go to hell if he didn't sovereignly choose me my wife my kids

01:01:53

Right, and that's why I fall on my feet And just say thank you. I I know

01:01:59

I can't understand you but but how do you personally? Grapple with that with when these people start talking like this

01:02:06

I at least i'm trying to understand why they they do the gymnastics because it's painful in a way

01:02:13

Because we know god loves Mankind yet. He also hates sinners and or at least their sin.

01:02:22

Oh, he hates them too. No, he hates the sinner, too Yeah, so, okay That's what i'm trying to remember scripturally

01:02:28

But yep, I just i'm struggling with that and i'm listening to it and I am so on board with everything you're saying yet I'm still sitting here thinking

01:02:35

Yeah, but I get why they their humanity is what leads them To not want to believe it or to try to twist it right is that where what you would say is wrong with these people

01:02:45

Well, yeah, so chris, let me go before you because I know you're going to have a lot more drawn out um

01:02:53

Response So when I listen to people like greg boyd Who have the the open theism positions or I listen to people who hold to a mulliness position position or a provisionist position

01:03:07

These are all arguments That are devised for the sole purpose of protecting the almighty will of man

01:03:17

It is it's conjured up so that we can protect man's free will

01:03:24

And That's its purpose because if people think if we take away man's free will which they don't understand what free will is anyway

01:03:34

The only person who truly has free will is god Because we are our slaves.

01:03:40

We're either a slave to sin. There's no freedom in that Or we're a slave to christ would but the only way to become a slave to christ is if our nature or our will

01:03:51

Is changed and regenerated Then once it is changed we desire the things of christ

01:03:58

So like when you're talking about it's our responsibility And we do have a choice and we and that we have an experience, right where we do say

01:04:09

I am going to repent of my sin and come to the lord Yes, but that's only because god has first regenerated us and changed our nature so that we now desire

01:04:22

God, right. So so think of it like If I have a cage And and on one side of the cage,

01:04:28

I have meat and on the other side of the cage. I have lettuce And I take a tiger and I put that tiger in the cage

01:04:36

Where's the tiger going to go? He's going to go to the meat every single time I can push him to the lettuce, but he's never going to eat why because his nature

01:04:45

Draws him to the meat If I take a rabbit and I do the same thing that rabbit's going to naturally go to the lettuce, right?

01:04:53

It's not going to eat meat now. Let's take man Let's take sinful fallen man and let's put

01:05:01

Sin fleshly desires on one side and let's put the holiness of god on the other

01:05:07

What's he going to choose? He's naturally going to choose the sin and fleshly desires because that's his nature

01:05:16

Okay, stop right there. Let me Okay But god created him and knit him together in his mother's womb is solely responsible for creating

01:05:26

Everything about that person right potter and clay. Yeah, that's where i'm just trying to say golly,

01:05:35

I I I will fall on scripture every time I was dying when I was watching this video and I have five percent of the theological knowledge of you guys and here

01:05:46

I am and early in this process sitting there dying listening to what he was saying thinking the same things about much of it and still not picking up on half of what you're saying about it, but So don't get me wrong

01:05:59

I just it makes me cringe a little because then let me ask you this and I don't know if scripture would point this out

01:06:05

Probably not god Just randomly chose me

01:06:11

There was nothing unique about me, right? There's nothing I did. He created me.

01:06:16

He knit me together in my mother's womb Everything about me is a blessing from his hand

01:06:24

Same like jeffrey donner Right, I mean we are all and yet What is it when god goes to choose somebody?

01:06:34

Is it literally if if if you could go back in time? I'm making a joke now and jumble it all up and he did it all over again.

01:06:41

Maybe I wouldn't be saved Not that he does things with random chance He's the god of purpose and intention and and I understand that so i'm kind of being facetious in a way by even talking like this but what i'm saying is is

01:06:54

Did he purposely create me to want to love him And yet he created somebody else to not want to love him and yet that's going to cost that man to suffer an eternity in hell

01:07:06

That's why I understand why these people do these gymnastics because right right because well in here in here's let me let me go back

01:07:14

And and address some of the things you said the first time. Um, uh, number one This is where the doctrine of the sovereignty of god and the realization of human responsibility

01:07:27

Trying to understand the two of them together is something that most of us dare,

01:07:34

I say all of us Well, if i've heard dr. John macarthur say I I cannot fully explain this and this man has been studying scripture

01:07:44

And pastoring and preaching for over five decades at one church um, and and and so the doctrine of the sovereignty of god and the the the the the realization of of human responsibility and how that intertwines and intersects and parallels

01:08:01

Is a mystery And it's a mystery that we have to go I don't know.

01:08:08

Yeah, but that helps me because the trinity we are right stuff like that, right? Who says he understands eternity?

01:08:14

I'm like, no you don't I mean you do but you don't Yeah, I mean so here's so here's something else as far as you know going back to what you were saying and and People like greg boyd and people like like these these guys that we're talking about people like andy stanley

01:08:29

Like I would put them in this category in romans one where the the It's ungodliness and unrighteousness of men

01:08:37

Because they're suppressing the truth their desire is to suppress the truth and and when paul talks about that and And the suppressing the truth.

01:08:46

It's like having a beach ball full of air and trying to hold it underwater You're only going to be able to push it down so far before it jumps up and slaps you in the face

01:08:56

And that's exactly what people like The truth has slapped greg boyd in the face

01:09:02

He said it I understand exegetically how I just don't when he said that.

01:09:08

Yeah, I mean it's Right, so so the doctrine of the sovereignty of god

01:09:14

And the understanding of human responsibility and how human responsibility plays into Those who are in hell and their desire to be there.

01:09:22

They hate god. So let me ask you this go ahead I would have for my clearly arminian friends from my other church who

01:09:30

I dearly love Yeah, and I was trying to temper the the you could feel the tension and i'm like guys

01:09:36

The venue texting this kind of stuff is going to cause problems Oh, yes, drew and I are very familiar with that And there's no leader that's going to calm everybody down and i'm like come on But anyways, uh,

01:09:47

I don't even know where I was just going to go with that the the message for Because I was trying to say guys

01:09:53

There's hills we're going to die on there's hills we're not going to die on and so what I would try to say To somebody who's starting to get hot about arminianism and that that line of thinking is look

01:10:05

I don't understand these things, but I accept them I have to I look at the scriptures.

01:10:11

I exegete the scriptures and I accept what I don't understand I don't try to change it because that's the way

01:10:17

I have tried to live my life I don't want to sit there and say well, that's not what god said i'm like, okay

01:10:23

I'm, just going to be grateful. I'm i'm one of them Well, so I mean so so you were you know One of the things that you were that you were asking is so, you know god created eric and knit eric together in his mother's womb and you are made in the image of god and so was a guy like jeffrey dahmer and And understanding the spiritual warfare aspect that that's at play with an example like that But I mean it's it's it's paul explains it in in romans chapter nine, of course quoting the old testament um

01:10:49

And starting in verse 10 and not only this but there was rebecca also and she had conceived twins by one man our father isaac

01:10:56

For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything Good or bad

01:11:02

So that the purpose of god according to his choice God's choice

01:11:08

Would not would stand not because of works because of him who calls it was said to her

01:11:13

The older shall serve the younger just as it is written jacob. I loved But esau

01:11:20

I hated yeah, and that's that's a that's a difficult pill for for for us to swallow is to it could have been me

01:11:27

Right, right. So so are you telling me chris that god can create someone make someone in his image of bless

01:11:34

Bless a woman with opening her womb to have a child and that child can be a wrath fit for destruction to show to show the wondrous mercies like that child can be the black mat to which the

01:11:46

Diamond of his mercy and the gospel sits upon to shine bright Yeah, yeah read verse 21 of chapter 9.

01:11:55

Yeah, I mean Potter have not the right over the clay. Right? Absolutely one for one for honorable one for dishonorable use now

01:12:05

And and so often when you when you point those truths out like well, that's just cold and I can't believe in a god who would

01:12:11

It's you don't get to question god That's god The one who literally didn't lift a finger to breathe a star into existence.

01:12:21

You can't question him Who do you think you are? Who do we think we are?

01:12:26

I mean, I was listening Rabbit trail for a minute, but listen, no latest episode of just thinking right a biblical theology of climate change

01:12:35

And they were talking through that they were like, who do we who do we think we are? And thinking that we have we have sovereign control over god's creation

01:12:46

We are part of that creation And and I mean it's I can't believe in a loving god.

01:12:52

Well, it's not your place to question him. Yeah, it's not It just speaks so clearly that it's self -elevation

01:13:00

You start to do all these gymnastics that you guys are talking about because you just don't like the way it sounds That's it.

01:13:06

And then you're off to the races. You might as well just start right downgrade What are you going to accept?

01:13:12

And what are you not going to accept? You know brother when I was Yeah when I was uh, this is a long time ago, uh, this is a funny story my wife and I um

01:13:21

I think it's before I think we were engaged. We went up to this place in north. Georgia called amicalola falls

01:13:27

And um, i'm i'm one of these people that when I see like a cliff or Something like that No, I don't want to jump off of it.

01:13:35

I just want to I just want to explore it. I love exploring I love going hiking i'd love doing all that stuff. So there was like this this this

01:13:42

I didn't realize how steep this was and how loose the the the dirt and the rock was where I was going to go down and i'm wearing chuck taylors and And and they are not good for hiking and i'm like, hey,

01:13:54

I want to go down there There's this beautiful like plateau right here. I want to get this picture and so I start

01:13:59

I start walking down this this embankment and and the the The soil and the rock underneath my feet is is very loose and I start sliding and I start picking up speed

01:14:11

And there was a moment where i'm like if I don't slow down i'm not gonna stop at this plateau. I'm gonna go over it

01:14:18

Yeah, when you Start questioning god Let me back up a little farther

01:14:25

When you start adding in your own framework because you don't like something that scripture says

01:14:32

It's like a it's like taking a step off of a downgrade and the farther you go down The faster you go

01:14:40

And and and it's one of the inertia comes into play and unless you

01:14:46

Are met With in and the immovable object of the lord.

01:14:52

Jesus christ and the holy spirit himself You will continue down that downgrade until you apostasize completely

01:14:59

That's where greg boyd is Yep Yeah, one of the things that always brings me to uh

01:15:09

To my face in worship Is thinking on the foreknowledge of god When we see it in the the ordo salutis or the golden chain of redemption in romans chapter 8

01:15:22

And so what paul says here is he says for those whom he foreknew he also predestined

01:15:29

To become conformed to the image of his son Now this idea of foreknowing and predestined so he foreknew them and then he predestined them

01:15:43

So this idea of foreknowledge and The best way i've heard it explained is by dr.

01:15:49

John snyder From media gratia, and he's a pastor of christ church, new albany and new albany, mississippi

01:15:56

He says it this way of foreknowledge It is god initiating a relationship with a rebel before that rebel was created

01:16:06

In such a way that guarantees the rebel will be made a friend Wow, that's the foreknowledge of god

01:16:15

And if that doesn't cut you to the heart and make you want to run to the lord and worship and praise

01:16:23

I don't know what will Right, right Well, uh brother keep going with the video because he says something here.

01:16:32

I think yeah, you guys can pop me off I just said eric. Hey, man, that was good stuff. That was good. Yeah That was good stuff.

01:16:38

Thank you. If you have anything else Let me know. Oh, yeah. No, i'll i'll Thank you.

01:16:44

All right All right, because he gets into something here that I think is important Um, okay, let's do it instead of doing this little eeny meeny miny moe

01:16:57

I choose you and you are let go That that part I heard that is that how god elects chris.

01:17:06

I think we I think we just kind of touched on it It's like you guys remember that game duck duck goose.

01:17:12

Is anybody old enough to remember that? I loved that game in elementary school, but that's exactly what duck duck duck goose and then take off running

01:17:19

Um, no, that's he's assuming the mind of god here. I'm telling you he's accusing god of unrighteousness

01:17:26

I mean, it's almost But but you know, I feel like I feel like god answered this question already in ephesians 1 verses 5 and 6

01:17:36

Why he predestined us to adoption as sons through jesus christ to himself

01:17:42

According to the kind intention of his will To the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed upon us

01:17:51

That doesn't sound like eeny meeny miny moe Yeah, he kind of said the same thing in uh in first peter

01:17:58

Blessed be the god and father of our lord Jesus christ who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of jesus christ

01:18:06

From the dead to obtain an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and unfading haven't been kept in heaven for you

01:18:13

That's not eeny meeny miny moe. That's not duck duck goose. That is authoritative He has caused you he chose you to be born again

01:18:21

Yeah, and we I mean we just we literally just just talked about this, right?

01:18:27

Just talked about this this dude so I I I I the the internal conflict for me,

01:18:35

I think I was destined to eventually outgrow calvinist the internal conflict. I don't like what it says

01:18:40

Therefore I will create a god that appeals to my liking Yeah, will you will you real quick and let's go back to that.

01:18:47

Will you highlight uh d otero's quote there? She said I I used duck duck goose.

01:18:53

She said even exactly I knew who I was gonna choose Good call out

01:18:58

Good point That's great. Oh good call. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead.

01:19:04

Good point. Good point Uh, and and finally found other ways of interpreting those tough passages

01:19:11

Romans 9 being the case found other way, you know, I I was actually looking into um determinism as well kind of the the secular version of calvinism because i've seen a lot of people argue that based on physics based on Neuroscience, we don't really have free will it's just an illusion

01:19:27

And basically coming to the same conclusion, you know people don't like this idea like it can drive people crazy or can make them depressed and a lot of people will say like Yeah, if this idea makes you uncomfortable

01:19:38

Then just don't think about it too much because it can it can drive you nuts And I was also watching a video of uh, john piper, you know, i'm famously a calvinist

01:19:46

Yeah, basically saying the same thing i'm just saying like yeah, this is true you don't have a choice, but you know, you just need to act as if you do have a

01:19:55

Choice because otherwise you won't be motivated to try to save people or spread the gospel or anything

01:20:02

Uh, hmm. Okay, chris honholtz found other ways of interpreting and there's

01:20:10

Yep, and then melissa owens chris and drew stop it sorry, sis we

01:20:21

The idea of free will making people or not having free will making people uncomfortable that doesn't

01:20:28

That doesn't make me uncomfortable Because I understand the sovereignty of god Now one of the things that's

01:20:36

I I don't know if you if you listen We're able to listen to the whole thing in the span of time, but when when

01:20:41

I listen to it it sounds like What they're saying about calvinism and god's sovereignty

01:20:51

Is that god is sovereign over each and every little thing that you do, right?

01:20:57

So I picked up this pen because god sovereignly made me pick up this pen I wore drink water right now.

01:21:04

Yeah, I wore this shirt because god sovereignly made me choose this shirt I didn't want to drink that water, but the lord made me.

01:21:11

Yeah okay, so When someone makes those arguments like that and i've heard it before I chose this shirt

01:21:18

God didn't choose this shirt for me. Okay That's not what we're talking about in free will no god doesn't care about the shirt you chose to wear

01:21:29

The discussion about free will is salvation. How do you want to know the lord?

01:21:37

right, right when it comes to will when it comes to free will in the in the the topic and conversation of Choosing the things of god

01:21:48

You have no ability to apart from the spirit living inside of you apart from heart regeneration heart surgery

01:22:02

As it's described in scripture the heart of stone has been replaced with a heart of flesh the holy spirit

01:22:08

Takes up residence inside of you You have no ability to save yourself

01:22:16

Dead men cannot raise themselves from the dead period You just like you can't see scroll said he said if I can if I can turn my heart of stone in a heart of Into a heart of flesh.

01:22:28

I have no need for a new heart or something Or no, he said he said if I can choose god with my old heart,

01:22:33

I have no need for a new heart That's what he said. That's right. That's right So when it comes to the matter of the will those in adam those in sin will choose themselves

01:22:45

And sin every time They are absolutely unable and incapable of choosing the things of god

01:22:54

And glorifying god according to the law of yahweh apart from Regeneration taking place apart from positional in the beginning of progressive sanctification

01:23:06

You cannot choose the things of god without the lord for and eric said it When he came in without the lord first drawing you to himself

01:23:16

And replacing that heart of stone with a heart of flesh. That's right That's right, and we've got uh, we've got some good comments here.

01:23:23

Yeah Because it'll show there we go my man Hold on.

01:23:29

I gotta Change the view here Because our nature is fallen. We are incapable

01:23:35

Of choosing to love and obey god including to choose to repent and trust in christ.

01:23:42

Amen, bro That's it That's it I mean I feel like paul was clear with what he wrote

01:23:52

You know, I feel like god was clear when when the holy spirit penned the entirety of the bible well, and this guy

01:24:00

Um said something mustache man here said something else that uh, um where he was talking about, you know, uh,

01:24:08

If if if those there are those who are chosen and not chosen then then there's no need to do anything Right.

01:24:14

He's talking about the frozen chosen. Yeah, and he's talking about it's a conflation. Uh, yes Calvinism and hyper calvinism.

01:24:21

Correct. Correct, which which we hyper calvinism we reject um Brothers and sisters the sovereignty of god the predestined the predestining the foreknowledge of god the sovereignty of god and salvation ensures the success of evangelism it ensures the success of the great commission, so Anybody who who tries to say well you're reformed or you're a calvinist

01:24:46

Do you believe in the doctrines of grace so you don't evangelize that is reject that that is not at all Hold on Here here's this comment from tracy

01:24:55

Yeah, if I can choose not to sin, why am I held responsible for breaking god's law?

01:25:02

Okay If if you can choose if you cannot choose not to sin, okay

01:25:08

If you cannot choose not to sin, why am I held responsible? I will respond to this with the same way paul responded to the objector

01:25:15

Who are you? Oh man to answer back to god Yeah, which is what

01:25:22

I mean It's clear right you you may say then how how then does god find fault

01:25:34

Who are you oh man to answer back to god Does the the thing molded not say to the potter?

01:25:40

Why have you made me this way? Yep Yep Oh, here we go.

01:25:46

Jason Jason also along the same line same place So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs we'll call that that that's also works but on god who has mercy

01:26:00

Well and going back to to if I if I cannot choose not to sin Like tracy you're asking the wrong question

01:26:09

Each of us are born With with a sin nature that puts us we we are hostiles we are hostile to god we are enemies of god um

01:26:21

Right that that's who we are. We are the the poison of asps is on our lips.

01:26:28

That's That is who we are. That is the nature that has been passed down to us um

01:26:36

However, if you choose to reject god that is your choice in doing so and that this goes back to the

01:26:42

The the mystery of the sovereignty of god and human responsibility, and I think I saw someone Yeah, melissa owens said john mccarthur has an article online called twin truths.

01:26:50

God's sovereignty and man's responsibility Um, yeah go to gty .org And start digging into some of that listen to those guys who are much smarter than me

01:26:59

Uh talk through that r .c. Sproul talks about it as well. Um We cannot we cannot shake our fist at god and say well that's not fair I you know, this person can't choose you.

01:27:11

So why are you holding their sin against them? That is not the way that is not the way that works. We are not in a place to do that.

01:27:17

We are not In a judgment seat judging god. We are the one being ones being judged.

01:27:22

Yep. You know, I see someone in the background here Oh, the question is should I let him in?

01:27:29

Because we're kind of doing a great job uh I don't know. Let's see. Let's let's let him in Andrew Hey, how you guys doing?

01:27:40

You won't be able to hear me too. Well but uh I was trying to get you while I was at the uh, jefferson memorial to see if you could figure out where I am right now

01:27:49

You're at the jefferson memorial Now, you know where I am, but uh, I was trying to get it but I was gonna let you guys guess but i'm down in dc

01:27:58

I headed to the museum of the bible tomorrow Nice So I figured I'd pop in and say hello

01:28:04

You know, hello you guys you guys reviewing the video. Oh, yeah

01:28:12

Yeah, it's is chris enjoying it oh, oh he's very much enjoying it.

01:28:18

Yeah He's had lots to say Well, I look forward to hearing it. I just figured

01:28:23

I'd pop into the show real quick. Say hello Hey, buddy Hey, you're having a great time we're praying for you.

01:28:30

Yeah All right All right. We'll see you see you buddy

01:28:38

Well, I think this would be a good time to bring in one of our sponsors because andrew's traveling and so When andrew goes to sleep at night when he travels

01:28:52

What do you think he's going to sleep on? Uh On a my pillow, that's right

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My pillow is a very comfortable pillow. I don't know if you have one chris if you don't have don't you should get one

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I probably should invest invest In one for you and then one for kimberly and then one for noah

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Can you believe? That chris got me a my pillow And I had a fantastic night's sleep on my pillow.

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You won't regret it I'm, just i'm saying you won't it's it's a great. It's a great product.

01:29:42

I've got two I've got two but one's not mine. One is uh One's brandy's.

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I do do you use it? Ish You need to use it more.

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Okay, how many times have I gone around saying you're just a second rate expositor It's because you don't use logos

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I mean it's outrageous Although you only use the lsb so That's not true.

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I've been i've been uh, i've been Lsb and And nasby. Yeah, i've been doing both.

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01:31:37

Really? Yeah, I just I mean it's one of the so well first, you know, you know this

01:31:44

I do my bible work, right? I I print out my passage and I do my initial observations

01:31:50

Right and then from there once I do that I then go to logos And I do word studies on on some of the words that i've specifically highlighted

01:32:01

And see how they work with the other words um in the text That way

01:32:06

I can I can then start formulating kind of my ideas around uh, what the text is saying And then how to break it down.

01:32:12

Yeah, see there. There's a good example. Hold on. Let me make that bigger Whoop, that's

01:32:19

How do I make it just you I don't know. I don't know either you're running the ship

01:32:25

Yep, did the bible work? Yep The bible work that that's it right there

01:32:30

Yeah, so I can't not use logos now. It's it's a part of my daily or not my daily but my routine for sermon prep

01:32:38

You you don't you don't want to know what I well, I think you do. So what I do is I do the bible work um, and then um

01:32:46

The first thing i'll do after the bible work is commentaries and then um, this is the last thing

01:32:51

I do is commentaries Yeah, well In my bible in my bible work. One of the things that i'll do is um blue letter bible

01:32:59

I'll just go there. I'll pull it up. Look at the original languages um Definition stuff like that.

01:33:06

Um, I the lsb isr or icr, excuse me the inside column reference um has references and footnotes and so i'll spend some time there and looking at different references and then i'll go to blue letter

01:33:18

Look at the original languages and then I pull out the commentary. So My bible work is a little is you know what you should do more steps

01:33:24

You should get logos Being the greek Well, you should just start learning the greek because yep If you know it helps with logos as well.

01:33:32

Just gonna say that see there you go, buddy Tracy asked I was considering the 50 logos, which is the basic program.

01:33:39

Um, just kind of the logos basic Will that be worth getting? Yes, because that's what

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I have um, that's what I have I didn't I I mean and you can you can go up from there

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You can you can upgrade if you're willing to invest more money and things like that I mean, they've got programs that get into the thousands of dollars and your boy just ain't dropping that kind of money

01:34:00

Um, i've got resources behind me. Um, because really once you start upgrading like that You're really just paying for the library

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That's true. So I don't I don't really need that. I just kind of need the basic things mostly the word studies

01:34:16

Um that really help so I have the 50 Logos and I absolutely think that it's worth getting

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Yes so Are you ready to get back to this video? I mean, sure send it man.

01:34:30

Go for it. We've got 30 minutes left We've I tried to draw it out with our sponsors, uh

01:34:43

Melissa says I want to be a master theologian like drew trust me me too half of it I just make up as I go.

01:34:49

I just happen to be right on a lot of just It's because god predestined you to be right.

01:34:56

That's right It's also because i'm post mill So if you want to if you want to really be right, you got to come over to be postman

01:35:04

All right, let's get into this Well, you know, that's it jeff

01:35:10

Charles purse who's a real famous american philosopher uh founders of pragmatism

01:35:17

And he that's a great idea we're gonna take our cues from the founder of pragmatism

01:35:24

Downgrade much Yeah, chris. What is pragmatism? pragmatism is

01:35:31

Is is going will this work? Sure, let's do it That's a very basic definition.

01:35:38

Yeah using whatever you can to get the big the bigger and better result. So So let's apply this to the church we see this with music we've talked about this tons of times countless times with music but Whatever you're doing to bring people in That's pragmatism if anything apart from the proclamation of the word of god, right the the ordinary means of grace

01:36:07

What we would say is pragmatism So if I must have gold dust falling from the ceiling in order to attract people if I must have a big band singing a whole bunch of songs that are

01:36:19

Not christian Hello reckless love Right if I have a big band doing all those things that's

01:36:27

Playing to carnal men in order to draw carnal men and then keep them in the church

01:36:32

Yep, when you do that and you engage in that The sheep will starve

01:36:39

Absolutely every time every time every and then you have to keep upping the game Yep, because what you what you bring them in with you have to keep them with And when it's anything other than christ when it's anything other than the eternal

01:36:54

Uh second member of the trinity, uh, the one who died in our place The one who's seated at the right hand of god the one who's interceding for the saints right now

01:37:02

When when you when you bring people in any with anything other than the inerrant infallible authoritative

01:37:09

Insufficient living and active word of god being proclaimed being sung being prayed and operating according to that you always have to Increase the carnal means and so you end up seeing what we what we've seen

01:37:22

Over the last month where there was a pastor on a stage playing super mario brothers as a part of his sermon on a big screen behind him so Avoid pragmatism avoid the normative principle of worship save yourself from heartache.

01:37:36

Trust me. Yep Pragmatism is if it works, it must be right. Yep It indicates that that the that any belief you show the the

01:37:51

The depth of your commitment to a belief by your willingness to act on it when acting counts So if you really believe something you'll act on it when acting counts, don't we do that?

01:38:02

Don't we do that when we go out and proclaim the gospel not according to him. Yeah, not according to him

01:38:08

Again, this is why I said he's conflating Calvinism and hyper calvinism hyper calvinists believe that you don't have to do anything

01:38:17

God is just going to save who he's going to save And so you can just sit back and sit on your hands. That's why they're called the frozen chosen chosen

01:38:26

We actually act on what we believe If we go out we proclaim the gospel to a lost and dying world

01:38:36

And we do that because god has promised To save his people.

01:38:41

Amen And so I I think it was Whitfield or Spurgeon I can't remember which one but they but they said

01:38:54

Um, we don't know who saved So we go out and or we don't know who the elect are so we go out and we proclaim the gospel to all if we knew if Something like god didn't mark who was who was the elect, you know with a paint stripe on them

01:39:13

Otherwise, we'd be going up looking looking on people's backs right to see if they have a mark Right, but we go to all

01:39:21

Because god has promised that he has people of every Every tribe tongue and nation so we we don't know who they are

01:39:30

So we proclaim the message to all We proclaim the message we we proclaim the message with the word of god

01:39:37

So we we we proclaim with the text we exhort with the text But then we we also call the will according to the text don't

01:39:46

Uh, i'm a calvinist I I wholeheartedly Unashamedly unreservedly will say that I affirm the doctrines of grace through and through But do we are not so proud and so prideful because god has chosen us to where we will not beg

01:40:01

Sinners to repent right and that's how each of us needs to operate when it comes to Uh, the the evangelism that we practice in our homes

01:40:11

Um with with our families, but then that's also how we operate when we evangelize in the world

01:40:17

Um, we are not so proud as to as to not beg Those to repent and to turn to christ.

01:40:24

That's right. Eric has a question. We're going to bring him back in Thank you, um, this is going to drill down on Uh, I lost it one john two verse two

01:40:43

Prophetiation Yes, and i'm i'm in the um blue letter bible

01:40:50

Trying to do sound hermeneutics um And now i'm on striving for eternity and it says

01:40:58

In this statement on limited atonement. It says the passage the passages which say jesus is the atonement for the uh

01:41:06

Atonement for the whole world shows the elect will come from all around the world

01:41:13

Mm -hmm so, um and this is that one of these points in this argument was uh, my friend said

01:41:22

The bible says that jesus was the atonement for the whole world. He's interpreting that As every single human being on the planet

01:41:31

Is what i'm I I really didn't get to engage him in a real Is Hang on one second eric, we can't oh there's lincoln

01:41:48

Yeah Yeah So just just wanted to uh now you can kind of better tell where i'm at there we go

01:42:17

We so you had to show us the lincoln memorial and the washington memorial, yeah, yeah, so As I walk down the steps of the uh, the lincoln memorial so, uh

01:42:33

I can't see I can't see who else is the fourth person in here tonight. It's eric Who sent you the video that we're reviewing?

01:42:40

Oh, okay. Hey eric Hey, how are you? Good good. Welcome to the show.

01:42:45

I hope that I hope these guys are treating you. Well Yeah, yeah, you know look we're treating them great.

01:42:51

But look what chris honnold says Yeah, honhold says leave it to andrew to break in and disrupt the show

01:42:58

I know I I am I I'm i'm disrupting my own show and uh But you know, hey, i'm giving you a break from that bad video that you've been, you know talking about all evening.

01:43:10

That's true That's true So, you know Let's go that way so we can see

01:43:18

There we go But uh

01:43:23

Well, I hope I hope you guys thoroughly answered that uh, all the fun things in that video

01:43:29

And uh, not all of them. Not all of them And I hope that you have a nice headache

01:43:36

Um, and if you do if anyone does have a headache it might they might need to just go get themselves in my pillow

01:43:42

Andrew already. Yeah, drew already did that? All right

01:43:50

Well, i'm glad that eric made it in and uh, i'll see you guys later Just wanted to get to at least a monument that you could recognize nice All right later guys

01:44:01

Yeah All right, eric keep going buddy before we Interrupted because because you're you're on to something good.

01:44:09

You're on to something good so, um and so i'm i'm Intentionally coming over to look at kind of the hermeneutical processing of the whole world because andrew

01:44:23

The way he worded this in here Is the passage which says the the whole world shows the elect will come from all around the world correct and his sacrifice is the only atonement the world will ever receive and and my friend was

01:44:44

Again, not being able to have a live conversation because that's just the nature of how this came across today He was saying

01:44:50

I know what he was saying he was saying everyone on the planet right every human being I think is where he was trying to go and andrew over here is saying

01:44:59

From around the whole world believers of every race nation uh, and then when

01:45:05

I look at the the the root word and all of that stuff i'm, not necessarily seeing

01:45:14

How either one can say, you know, we're kind of interpreting that the way each of us want to I mean

01:45:19

How do you look at that if you can? I don't know if you have a double screen here. We can pull it up so so Your friend who's talking about propitiation?

01:45:29

And a propitiation of the whole world now if this means every body in the world every person in the world

01:45:38

What propitiation means is a removal of wrath? Correct and so if god has removed his wrath from every person in the world, then everyone goes to heaven

01:45:49

Now you're in universalism Which is actually chris. I didn't tell you this but later in the video

01:45:57

Greg boyd and this jeremy guy actually talk about affirming universalism, which is odd because Universalism is a determinist view.

01:46:06

It's determined that everyone will go to so why be an open theater? I don't Get to see the head.

01:46:12

Well So so we talk about appreciation but then eric also the word for world their cosmos And when you look at that one of the things that that we have to understand is that means all of mankind

01:46:23

Okay, so from a generic standpoint, it's All of mankind and you hit on that right from every tribe nation tongue.

01:46:30

So so of from every ethnicity ethnos that has been xx 127 so um, every every

01:46:38

Every facet of the world that is that that is what happened. Um, okay

01:46:44

What I was doing was looking up the whole Right, right, right. So that's the word

01:46:49

I was I didn't go and drill down on that other word before I got right, right, right Yep, so cosmos there like we have to understand that that that one of the definitions of cosmos isn't

01:46:59

Every person made in the image of god that will ever inhabit the earth. It is Mankind in general it is it is from the nations from from from the world um, but then also when you think about it, too, there there's the there's common grace that's given right there's

01:47:15

And an understanding that um that there's common grace and patience and paul talks about that in romans 9

01:47:21

Uh the immense patience that the lord has given for those vessels that have been marked for destruction um

01:47:28

So so that's where like you said man, you've got to you've got to drill down from hermeneutics and go

01:47:34

Okay, what is this saying? What is john talking about here? Um, what's before what's after what is what what is the premise of the letter?

01:47:43

Uh that has been written um and then we also one of the things that martin lloyd jones likes to point out is if you can

01:47:49

If you read one passage of scripture and you can draw a theological deduction from that one passage

01:47:55

But you can't go anywhere else in scripture to back up that that theological deduction. You've got it wrong start over And and so scripture's clear about a a limited atonement um in the fact that the that the atoning work of christ

01:48:12

Um is effectually applied to the elect only Um, that's that so so that's where yeah getting in there studying

01:48:21

And then and then examining scripture um interpreting scripture with scripture so he makes a good point here all without distinction because we

01:48:29

We hear people who are non -calvinists and well all means all and that's all all means but it doesn't because there's

01:48:38

Context or audience relevance whenever you use the word all right, right. So let's say let's say we're

01:48:46

Let's say we go and attend a church somewhere you Me chris and eric we're going we're going to visit a church somewhere and we're all three in the congregation

01:48:55

After the service if I say hey guys We should all go get lunch Do I mean all the people in the church?

01:49:03

Do I mean all the people in the county do I mean all the people right in right?

01:49:09

Or do I mean all just the three of us? Right, right, right. So so, um, you know keeping

01:49:16

Continuing along with that first john chapter 4 um By this first john chapter 4 verse 9 by this

01:49:22

The love of god was manifested in who us who is the us?

01:49:27

Uh that god has sent his only begotten son into the world so that we who's the we right?

01:49:34

He's writing to believers might live through him um First timothy, there's another one first timothy 4 10

01:49:41

Also points this out. Let me just pull that up real quick uh first timothy 4 and verse 10

01:49:47

Uh for it is this that we labor and strive because we have fixed our hope on the living god who is the savior

01:49:53

Here we are again, right all men especially of believers Yeah, right.

01:49:59

There's that distinction there That it's that is for the believers. What verse was that you said first timothy 4 10

01:50:06

Yeah, so there's so so with with with what d saying here all without distinction there's actually two views there's all without exception

01:50:15

And then all without distinction. So which? Does the scriptures mean when it speaks on on those issues?

01:50:23

Is it all without exception? Well now you're in universalism every person without exception

01:50:29

Right, or is it all without distinction? It doesn't matter

01:50:35

Where you come from? God can save anyone

01:50:41

Whom he chooses Correct yeah, because I guess if it's universalism and god is calling all people to himself and Two thirds of the world goes to hell.

01:50:53

He failed. Is that my line of thinking correct? I mean then Rectify that. Yep. Yep.

01:50:59

I mean Yeah, yeah, so that's why that wouldn't make sense

01:51:04

I guess maybe i'm right Either christ's death on the cross

01:51:10

Accomplishes what it was supposed to accomplish meaning the salvation for all whom god chose

01:51:16

Or it fails because if because what you see in john six, let me let me just turn there uh john six

01:51:29

Where am I saying? No one can come to me unless the father who has sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day

01:51:36

Um, you went through that. Let me go Oh, here we go. Verse 37 All That the father gives me

01:51:44

Will come to me. Okay, so we see all there is a group of people

01:51:51

And all of those people The father gives to the son

01:51:57

And they will that's a definitive statement. They will go to the son and The one who comes to me

01:52:06

I will certainly not cast out so they So all the all of that group will go to the son.

01:52:13

The son will receive them and he will never Cast them out. Yep Yeah, you've also got john 17 right and this is again go scripture with scripture

01:52:22

I've manifested your name starting in verse 6 john 17. I've manifested your name to the men You gave me out of the world

01:52:29

They were yours and you gave them to me and they have kept your word Now they have come to know that everything you have given me is from you

01:52:37

For the words which you gave me I have given to them and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from you

01:52:44

And they believed that You sent me Verse nine. I ask on their behalf.

01:52:50

I do not ask on behalf of the world But on those whom you have given me for they are yours

01:52:59

Right and and and john goes on chapter 17. He he goes back to that multiple times

01:53:04

Multiple times because then he he he starts stop speaking about the disciples and starts talking about the believers

01:53:11

Um us who would end up coming to faith in christ by by the by his drawing So yeah, you also got john 10, right?

01:53:18

Remember the pharisees come to jesus and they say tell us plainly are you? He are you the christ?

01:53:24

Are you the messiah? And jesus says i've already told you Right, you do not believe because you are not my sheep

01:53:30

And he says my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me And I give eternal life to them and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of the hand verse 29 my father

01:53:43

Who has given them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them from the father's hand

01:53:51

I and the father are one Yep, I mean just just just in case anyone was wondering scripture is clear

01:54:02

I mean just in case greg boyd wishes things were made a little clearer All we had to do was read it

01:54:13

Excellent one of the things I was thinking of doing with this guy is taking all the scriptures that he sent me

01:54:19

Putting them into true context instead of just reading the isolated verse going back and looking at it Absolutely through all of these other verses and meeting them for coffee

01:54:28

Yeah, and saying let's just get together and talk about this where we can kind of love each other through it and yep

01:54:33

And say hey because he was he he a vody bachum video This is what started this whole thing and then you guys can kick me off so you can finish what you need to do

01:54:42

No, you're good. The one guy sent out a vody bachum video on how the The church has made jesus today a sissy, right?

01:54:51

Oh, yeah I I was so I responded really positive, you know now this is back at the calvary which

01:55:00

You know, it's been a while since i've been there three years. Um And that's what ignited this whole thing because then this one guy it's the teacher the bible teacher bible study for the men calls him and He says he has errant theology and he said we can't listen to preachers like that Because he's a false teacher and he has errant theology and i'm like did he say errant vody bachum errant and i'm like and that's what ignited everything because then

01:55:28

I made a little bit of a comment like I really understood that video. I know what you meant

01:55:33

I totally get it because I feel like my buddy got smacked in the face over something that was so well put anyway, that's what started it and This is crazy, so I I just I need to get back to it, but this is incredibly helpful

01:55:48

If you can put me in the background Awesome, brother. Thank you. Thank you guys. It's tremendous problem

01:55:54

All right. Here's the the big question chris It's coming up on 10 o 'clock

01:56:01

Do we want to tread the waters of anthony time? Do you want to Tonight Maybe like 10 minutes 10 minutes.

01:56:13

Okay 10 minutes max Here we go So if I say the folks in this house, you know, or if i'm in the theater and I say hey guys

01:56:22

I think the building's gonna blow up here in two minutes So he's talking about acting on it right remember acting on what you say you believe yep

01:56:31

Well, if I make a beeline for the doorway, that's one indication that I really believe that If I don't make a beeline for the doorway

01:56:39

That's one indication that I don't really believe that because i'm not going to act when acting counts So so here's the question is

01:56:44

How do you act on calvinism? Yeah, exactly Every choice I make

01:56:49

I have to act as though it was up to me to make that choice Okay Man This is where I said he starts acting and trying to say that calvinists believe

01:57:05

That every single thing we do is controlled by god, but I oh, but I have to act like I made that choice

01:57:13

Is this where he starts saying that we're functionally open theists? I don't he he might

01:57:22

I mean we've already as you preach Yeah, I mean we've already talked about that right you you you do what you're commanded to do you share you share christ right um understanding that it's

01:57:36

Here's here's how I act on it. Chris. Here's how I act on it and it's the same way that I explain faith to people

01:57:44

You live as though what god has said is true That's how you act that's it

01:57:53

Let's keep going so I can only illustrate my belief that it's up to me to believe with every choice

01:57:59

I make i'm Acting on the assumption that it's up to me to believe this And and hold on has he never read ephesians that says faith is a gift of god

01:58:12

He ignored it He ignored suppressing the truth of god and unrighteousness Here's a quote from earlier from jason cave.

01:58:20

He has never exegeted. Nope No, no, well, he's isogeted but I was gonna say he's exegeted his opinions.

01:58:27

That's all he's done. Oh, yeah, which is isogesis. So Yeah Yeah Just you know, greg go read ephesians it just read the first verse

01:58:38

How do you? How do you interpret the phrase? Predestined for adoption

01:58:49

I'd love to hear him talk about that. I would love to hear the hermeneutical gymnastics of that one. Yeah.

01:58:54

Yeah and to choose this So calvinism is a belief there's no way to act such that you illustrate your belief that it's not up to you to determine this

01:59:04

We've already discussed that but go ahead chris You raised. Oh, no, I just no I was just doing because he's got his laptop on his lap

01:59:11

That's why it's shaking and it's driving me nuts. Go ahead. Okay There's no way to illustrate it is up to god to determine this and so At best

01:59:19

I'd say calvinism is a pragmatically meaningless belief. You can't act on it It's all it's all theoretical exactly.

01:59:28

Yeah, it it can't be theoretical when we've Discussed it exegetically

01:59:35

It's all theoretical and and you can't actually act on it, but I can see how people get there exegetically

01:59:45

Oh my goodness Oh It's all theoretical it's all pragmatism

01:59:55

But I can see how you get there exegetically. Is that not practical? Is is proper exegesis not?

02:00:03

The result of proper exegesis should be practical and then not only that but then what god tells you to do as a result

02:00:11

Therefore live this way and do the do this Okay You Uh, I I thought about it, but I but I didn't

02:00:21

I thought about just sending an email say hey We're going to review this video, please. Come on Please come on.

02:00:29

Okay, this is bad Well, there's no way it can make a difference in your behavior

02:00:36

Because you have to act as though it was up to you as though the future There's no way it can make a difference in your behavior, okay um

02:00:45

Um, that is 100 percent not true because we've talked about God had no reason

02:00:56

To choose us. Hmm. We all deserved hell well, and it does make a difference in our behavior because when you're renewed

02:01:06

Don't make me go to mark seven and talk about it's what comes out of it's not what goes in But what comes out that defiles a man?

02:01:12

so when when what comes out of your stony sinful dead heart is Is fruit of unrighteousness when your heart is regenerate and the lord replaces that stony heart with the heart of flesh

02:01:23

Um, and the holy spirit resides in you the fruit that comes from that Um, hello

02:01:30

That's not theoretical that does change your behavior. It changes the way you think

02:01:36

Which changes your behavior, you know when scripture says to hide god's word in your heart in the hebrew heart refers to your mind the inner man

02:01:46

So you hide god's word in your mind in the inner parts of who you are that you may not sin against him

02:01:53

That is a change in behavior This is word salad at this point.

02:01:59

Yeah because How do you explain? Sanctification is sanctification just behavior modification of myself

02:02:10

Right where I have just chosen to do humanism. That's Humanism and moralism apart from salvation in christ dams just as much as if you're not a moralist or humanist, right?

02:02:21

Right because how do I act on that chris? How do I act on on calvinism?

02:02:27

holiness my pursuit of holiness How do you act on calvinism, let me let me turn to romans chapter 8 real quick romans 8 29

02:02:34

I don't even have to turn there romans 8 29 We'll start with 828 for we know that all things work together for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose

02:02:42

Why verse 29? So that you are conformed more and more into the image of who?

02:02:48

christ Which involves holiness and repentance and that's the same chapter in romans right before romans 9 that they're talking about that talks about the fact that we

02:02:59

You mortify the deeds of the flesh. Yes, you kill sin at the root at the thought level

02:03:08

Yeah But it doesn't change behavior. Yes. Am I mocking at this point? I absolutely am because it's it's

02:03:15

Look, I talked about this at the very beginning of the show. I said what you're going to hear is framework You're going to hear a framework that is is the result of of Of or you're going to hear someone who has their framework is nothing short of pride arrogance and the doctrine of demons the framework which which

02:03:35

To which he is approaching the scripture shows that he is on the downgrade the framework to which they not just him

02:03:41

But all three of them approach the doctrines of grace Shows that he is of his father the devil

02:03:49

This is this word salad and this this contradiction back and forth This is exactly what happens when you don't

02:03:57

Gather your framework from scripture you contradict yourself And and you can't go from saying

02:04:05

I can see how someone gets there exegetically To it doesn't change your behavior Yep if If it doesn't change my behavior

02:04:18

I'm not saved correct holiness Is the fruit?

02:04:25

of a nature that has been changed in a a heart that has been submitted to christ

02:04:34

But that is not something that is of my own doing because it can't be of my own doing

02:04:40

Right because apart from christ. I don't want him Therefore I need the father to change me and then when the father changes me my desires my

02:04:53

Affections then turn towards the son where I Run after him.

02:05:00

I repent of my sin. I Believe that what christ did on my behalf was actually true and I received that Yeah for the purpose of being reconciled to the father and brought into the joy of his communion and looked at as a

02:05:18

As a son in air given all the natural rights and privileges of a natural born son

02:05:25

And then I live From that my life should then be the fruit

02:05:33

That comes from the root of the gospel so it the fruit that is produced is the holy spirit

02:05:42

Let's quote philippians Working in me to will and to move

02:05:48

Grow me ever more into the image of christ, which is what

02:05:53

I long for my question to greg boyd Would be do you long for holiness?

02:05:59

Do you long? To be conformed to the image of christ though the one who

02:06:06

Came and and sacrificed his life for you Stood in your place bore your sin on the cross

02:06:15

Do you long to know him? Do you long to commune with him? Do you long to be conformed to his image?

02:06:23

or Would you rather sit back? in the seat of arrogance judging god's word and saying

02:06:32

I will not believe in a god that does that or says that therefore I believe the bible has errors and I will create a god to my own liking

02:06:42

Yeah, nope No one one of those positions

02:06:49

Is evidence of salvation the other one is evidence of condemnation

02:06:57

The question is which one do you desire if your heart is not longing after holiness

02:07:05

You do not know god and you're yeah, if your heart is not longing after holiness and you want to sit in judgment over the lord in his word and accuse the

02:07:14

Lord of unrighteousness because you don't like something and can't enjoy it I know the answer to that question

02:07:20

The fruit exposes the root Yeah, and and not only in saying those things

02:07:28

Can we see that he does not know god But even worse God does not know him

02:07:37

And our greatest need Is that god know us?

02:07:43

Yeah, because we have submitted ourselves to him and we have come Not for our own pleasure

02:07:50

We have come not for our own righteousness But we have come to do the will of the father

02:07:58

To serve him and then to serve others not to serve ourselves we are to die itself and Any self -righteousness that I have any arrogance that I have

02:08:13

I must put to death before I can even come to know the father

02:08:22

And all and i'm i'm gonna stop the video here Because everything that we have heard

02:08:30

In this video and you have said it is nothing more Than sitting in the judgment seat of god.

02:08:37

It is a elevation of self in the prideful arrogance of the heart Setting oneself up as judge over god and over his word

02:08:47

Yeah That is a dangerous place to be If that is you

02:08:54

If you are if you may be hearing this or listening to this You may hold to the view of open theism you may hold to the view of universalism

02:09:04

Those are heresies Those are views That will send you to judgment my prayer for you

02:09:17

Is that you would repent of those heresies? They are false teachings of god and we have spent all this show

02:09:25

Almost two hours because we did the first 30 minutes on other stuff We'll say an hour and a half

02:09:32

We have spent an hour and a half unpacking the sovereignty of god

02:09:40

How man comes to know god? The will of man the depravity of man

02:09:48

We've unpacked all of that and we have I I I believe we have fully shown the open theistic view to be false

02:10:00

And the universalistic view to be false Because if universalism is true christ had no need to die, right?

02:10:10

God could just had the intention to save everyone and he would have just saved everyone But if you hold those views

02:10:21

I would encourage you to repent. Yep Turn from those heretical views and look to christ the one who came and necessarily

02:10:35

Had to live out the righteous law of god Because we could not do it.

02:10:41

Yeah He necessarily Had to go to the cross in our place

02:10:49

Because if we go to the cross for ourselves, we don't atone for our sins

02:10:56

We receive judgment. That's what we deserve in the first place. Yep So we can't make atonement for ourselves.

02:11:01

We must have a sacrifice in our place a perfect spotless sacrifice

02:11:09

He went in our place and he died the death that we deserved

02:11:15

He was buried Carrying our sin away from us and then he rose on the third day as the exclamation point to it is finished

02:11:29

And then he ascended into heaven where he now sits at the right hand of the father

02:11:36

And what you must do is repent Turn from your sin and look unto christ

02:11:45

Run to christ submit to christ And believe that everything that he did on your behalf is actually true

02:11:58

So that you may be reconciled to the father and you may not only say

02:12:04

I know god But god knows knows me Amen brother

02:12:13

Amen So, uh I will tell you guys as we wrap up here be sure to catch next week's episode now,

02:12:24

I think I think we're going to take a break from From looking at this video, I think for two weeks

02:12:30

So I think in three weeks, we're going to come back and look at this video again Or andrew might just say.

02:12:36

Yeah, I think you guys uh you cover Um, but uh next week andrew will be back and we're going to have special guests someone who

02:12:46

I highly look up to Pastor jim osmond me too, buddy. So you won't want to miss that they're going to be

02:12:53

I think they're going to be or They we we're going to be looking at a video that andrew sent jim about prophecy.

02:13:00

He sent it to me I just haven't watched it yet. Okay, and then the week after that andrew told me the week after that um

02:13:10

Yeah the week after we have a guy that wants to defend benny hinn so that should be an interesting episode

02:13:18

Okay We get uh, justin peters and uh, yeah

02:13:26

Kosti's doing that week Yeah that you know, i've never understood that right you have kosti who used to work for his uncle

02:13:36

And then when he came out and he said it's all fake It's all fake. Let me tell you about it.

02:13:42

You know redefining deception and strange fire Charismatic chaos and the charismatics and you'll be good

02:13:48

Yeah, and the thing is is out of the water kasi doesn't out these things just to bash his uncle

02:13:54

He actually outs them so people can be saved and that his uncle can be brought to repentance, right? right, so it's important to make that distinction, but Chris thank you for joining me.

02:14:06

Uh pleasure buddy. Thank you for asking. I know it was uh, It was rough And I know you like me was gonna you were gonna hear that you were gonna bang your head and go

02:14:16

I have Something to say about that A whole lot and that's just in the first five minutes

02:14:23

Yeah, yeah, and I want to thank eric for coming in. Um, and I want to thank him for his questions as well

02:14:28

Yeah, they were great. Really good. Really good questions but As we leave here tonight

02:14:36

I want you to strive to make every day an eternal day for the glory of god