Review an anti-Calvinist video

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity

ministries.

We are live.

Welcome back to apologetics live and it's drew and i'm flying solo today but not

really.

Not really, uh, we'll bring in our guests later.

Um, and we're gonna have some fun.

This this episode we're gonna have a lot of fun.

But beforehand before we we get to that I want to remind you that apologetics live is a podcast ministry by

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Um now before we get to our main subject today i'm going to bring in My

host for my co -host for today since andrew's not here.

Chris huff the other half of theology.

What's up, buddy?

How you doing, man?

You know just living the dream.

I knew you were gonna say that.

It it.

Working out in the hundred degree weather.

Delivering packages driving a truck that has absolutely no air conditioning.

Oh, man.

Okay.

It's uh, It's what every little boy grows up to want to do.

Right, man, right.

Oh, bro, it's it's it's been brutal with this heat man.

Yeah, we're getting a nice.

I mean where you are.

I know you're getting it too, man.

Nice little nice little round of showers.

So yeah, yeah little rain.

Yeah, but.

Okay, so let's let's do this in the news real quick.

Okay.

All right, so uh something's.

It's it's been in the news, but it hasn't really been in the news.

And it's the investigation.

Of the mysterious cocaine that was found in the nest wing of the white house.

The investigation Has ended.

Okay, they ended it.

And guess who the culprit was?

Who?

They don't know.

They don't know.

Yeah, they said they actually don't know who brought it in.

Oh, I know.

I know.

Hunter biden.

Yeah, we all know.

We all know come on now.

But but this should be concerning very concerning for a couple of reasons.

So you have the most secure the most protected house

in america.

Right cameras all over the place.

You can go in there and you can get a picture of 35 different angles of your face.

All right, and not one of them was able to capture the person that brought this in.

Yeah, yeah, we call that a cover -up.

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

It's like so so you're just having random people walk in to the west wing.

Unmonitored just leaving illegal drugs.

Is that where we're at now?

Not to mention there's video evidence of him on a balcony and you can very clearly see he put something on right here

on his hand.

In the in the in the.

If you're ever grilling something and you want to know if it's done by the way.

You touch the meat if it feels kind of like that's probably done right there in that spot.

Yeah, he totally just turned away and.

It's like oh, yeah, okay, and then look.

Not only that you also see the doctor jill biden

and.

On her face is like Get this guy out of here.

Like I cannot believe you just did that right here right now.

Yeah, but I mean.

But what about fingerprints, right?

There's no fingerprints on whoever left this right now, it's just Riddle

me this.

Okay, if this was any other investigation of any other person, do you think it would stop after two weeks?

I mean, you just have to ask the question you go.

Okay, if this were donald trump jr.

Or or you know previous administration's children.

And this were the case.

Absolutely not.

Look at what they've done with the whole january 6th thing.

And I mean it is all just a bunch of hogwash.

That's right. It really is.

Yeah.

Yeah, and this should make you mad because the fbi They they have plenty of

time to arrest and investigate parents who attend pta meetings.

Who are fighting for their children?

But yet they give up this investigation after two weeks.

Well, I mean come on the the fbi who uh, and the federal government who will will send

undercover agents.

Uh to start protests to start issues.

You know, come on, it's it's.

Right and now the truth is like like you said the truth is we know Who this belongs to.

Okay, right?

They know who it belongs to we know who it belongs.

It's no secret, but we clearly see The sin of partiality here.

There is no equal justice.

No, nope.

Nope.

Well, and I was just uh, let me see if I can find this passage of scripture.

Um, that is a good reminder for us.

I was I was looking at there it is second chronicles 1907 let me pull it up real quick because this is this is a good

one.

This is a good reminder of for all of us.

Um, nope, I did that earlier too.

I wrote second churn instead of second chron.

So that doesn't work but second chronicles 1907 check this out.

And this is of course i'm reading from the lsb.

So you'll you'll notice you'll notice that right away, uh verse 7 out of second chronicles 19 says so now then let the

dread of yahweh Be upon you.

Be careful what you do because with yahweh our god, there is no unrighteousness or

partiality or the taking of a bribe.

Um, and that's a fantastic reminder that that is who he is.

So, you know hunter biden and the biden's and the federal government can get away with that all they want on this side of eternity but uh.

It just because we see injustice here temporarily temporarily.

And temporarily doesn't mean that there won't be justice eternally.

So.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

That that is one thing that we do.

Uh, we have to remember.

Yeah that the god we serve is a just god.

Amen.

So that while People may get away with certain sins. They may get away with

crimes.

This side of eternity.

Yep.

That doesn't mean that they'll get away with it on the other side.

They will have to answer to god for those things.

That's it.

That's it.

That's it.

So, yeah, man.

Yeah.

Well speaking of in the news, I know we talked about um talking about this offline, but I just wanted to remind everybody uh

that the essential church movie Uh the full length feature documentary,

uh by grace, uh done by grace community church grace productions um that uh that

hits theaters nationwide july 28th.

Um, and you can go to essential church movie .com.

That's just not the but just essential church movie .com.

And you can put in your zip code.

It'll tell you which theaters around you are showing it.

Um, there's over 170 plus theaters that have added it.

They're trying to get to a thousand.

They're trying to get to a thousand.

I actually um interviewed, uh, shannon halliday who's the writer and director Of the film.

I interviewed him yesterday for matter of theology and we did an ig live.

And um, and he told me that what they're doing lord willing is they're going to be adding theaters every

single day up until the 28th.

Um, so in order to get to a thousand they need to sell out as quickly as possible for the theaters that are

already uh showing the film so um, I just sent you a screenshot because we were talking about it offline,

but um.

Um here within you know, 25 miles of where I am.

There's now four theaters that are showing Uh this film and amc just picked it up some

not all but some regal cinemas have it.

Um, and they're they're wanting to just just uh, just absolutely just blow this out now i've seen the film.

Um, I saw it last week.

Uh, it is phenomenal.

It takes you right back to what you what we all experienced three years ago.

Um during the plan -demic not the pandemic the plan -demic um and everything that took place and

uh shannon is uh.

You'll have to listen to the episode the matter of theology episode will drop on monday um.

That interview with him and he gives a little background as far as his story, but he's a he's a storyteller and they did a

phenomenal job with this and uh one of my favorite parts and i'll stop there because I want you guys to

listen to the episode and I want you to see the film but They show very clearly in a wonderful way

how everything that happened.

To grace community church to grace life church and edmonton james coats erin coats Tim and

raquel stephens, um their church.

Everything that happened there is similar to what the covenanters went through.

It's similar to what we saw during the great ejection.

And they tell some stories in there about some some things that happened throughout church history and they pointed out this

key this key fact.

That whenever persecution and opposition comes against the church from an offensive standpoint

typically.

And mostly it's from government.

It's from the state.

Uh, and so they do a phenomenal job at telling that story.

Uh, it's it clocks in at just over two hours like two hours and six minutes, but it does not feel like that.

Um, it's gonna leave you angry and frustrated.

It's gonna leave you.

Uh filled with courage and resolve.

It's gonna leave you in tears at some moments to be honest.

Um,.

So yeah, the essential church go check it out now.

Go ahead he says.

My church is showing it this sunday at 6 p .m.

Yeah, yeah the um, a lot of churches are I know alex rodriguez.

He's uh, the pastor of outpost bible church in mckenry, illinois.

They're doing their sunday night I think brandon and heritage tulsa.

I think he's doing.

I haven't talked to him about it.

Okay, I think he's doing brandon scalf their heritage tulsa and tulsa, oklahoma.

I think they're showing at sunday night.

So a lot of churches are doing that I know tom buck church in lindale, texas is doing it um a lot of places

are um that doing like a pre -screening before the film drops on the 28th and theaters everywhere, so.

Um, but if your church is not showing it, um, find a theater if not, um,.

Uh recall the theater call call your local theater and and uh and request that they uh that they carry it.

So and um, um, so yeah, it's it's great and but it's something that every believer needs to watch

and uh.

Is a reminder for every believer as well to study church history because there's nothing new under the sun, right?

Now jason cave says mot in the house.

What's up cave.

Matter of theology mot.

And he also says.

Hello all saints.

Sorry i'm late.

God bless you ga georgia brothers.

That's it man.

Talking about georgia in the house.

That's it.

Now let's bring in.

We have a guest backstage.

Come on the stream.

What's going on?

Hey.

How are you?

Good, man.

How are you?

Good eric.

Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you.

I've uh through i've seen you chris.

This is my first, uh Encounter, but i've only been able to catch the show several times.

Gotcha.

Yeah, I gotcha our uh.

Are you wanting to do you have a question or are you wanting to join in on our anti -calvinism video?

Well.

That's that's the video I sent to andrew.

Oh Yeah, okay.

I got it.

The only reason i'm tucked into the back office here I guess I just signed on at the duck man and here I show up and you're talking to

me.

So yeah, but I my buddy, uh Who lives out in oregon?

Sent that to me when we started talking back and forth about this issue and I watched that I was

just Amazed and i'm like wow.

Yeah I told you know and here I had watched you guys on this show

three times maybe before I watched that video and I It was.

So different I'll just look at that without yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So when uh when andrew sent me that this video.

Um, I watched the first five minutes and I said we can do three shows on the first five minutes alone.

I got four minutes and 23 seconds in before I had to turn it off.

Yeah, there's so much to go over because there's so much of a misrepresentation.

That's taking place and so, uh, so if you like you you're more

than welcome to stay, uh,.

Stay in with us on our critique if you want to add anything.

Or if you want you can hang out in the back.

It doesn't matter to us.

Yeah, I I don't know I I'm, not sure i'm going to have a ton to add.

I watched it A couple months ago it seems so it's not fresh in my head, but the whole

feel of it and everything.

You know, I I recently I was at a calvary chapel For about five to seven

years and so I I just came to a a church out here in medina it's called

medina bible church and it's uh Very hermeneutically sound.

In fact, I didn't even know much about hermeneutics.

Our pastor wasn't Just pushing herman.

Yeah, it was it was so it's been a an

interesting learning curve because now i'm Growing in doctrine more and and sound

theology, right?

So it's been eye -opening uh, and so I think I had gained enough ground

over the past couple of years that when I Saw that and listened to it.

That's.

So i'm i'm not sure I can speak heavily into where you guys are going to be able to take that.

So if you want to put me in the back, that's fine, and I can just listen along.

Yeah.

Yeah, so so i'll just i'll put you in the back and then if you have a A comment or you want to come in and say something

just put it in the private chat and we'll bring you in to uh.

Yeah to speak.

Appreciate the review too.

This is great.

That's why I I ran upstairs and I was like not gonna miss this.

Although i'm gonna have to miss next week because I will be working.

I think if you take three shows.

I'll hopefully be able to next week.

Well good thing because next week we're not gonna we're not going to be covering this Uh video.

But we are going to have to break this this video up into several shows.

But next week is actually going to be uh with jim osmond.

So jim osmond is going to be here and they're going to be talking about a another video about prophecy.

Uh, so so so you won't miss uh, you won't miss anything next week.

Well, you'll miss jim and it's always great to watch jim in work, but uh.

But you won't miss anything as it pertains to this video.

Great, then i'll catch the following week.

I'll be on vacation, but i'll i'll have wi -fi and i'll be able to Set an alarm and hope I

hear it when it rings.

So i'll be able to talk with.

Oh, yeah, great awesome, man, well i'll put you backstage.

Okay, man.

All right, chris.

Are you ready to get into this video?

Uh, sure sure send it.

All right.

All right.

We're gonna we're gonna do it.

I hope everyone's ready.

Let's.

Uh, yeah, and and like I said, I.

I got I got four minutes and 23 seconds in I was texting drew.

I was like, I can't I just I can't we can.

We can we can we can stop right here.

Um, but uh, all right, man, go for it.

All right.

Well, so so first just just to set some some context.

This is from the podcast the forest and the trees podcast.

Okay.

Uh, the host of this podcast is jeff kane and you're gonna see and hear from jeff.

Uh, he's got uh, really long hair.

A really high pitched voice and a mustache and some thick glasses.

I don't know anything about him.

So I can't speak to anything regarding What you might think of him and then this

guy here on the screen jeremy, uh,.

Uh jernigan, and then their guest is greg boyd.

Now there's there's a lot of problems with greg boyd.

I know in the past.

Dr. James white has covered a lot of uh his stuff so, uh.

So yeah, there's there's issues with greg boyd and and you're gonna see it in this video

it's I I had a headache when I first watched it.

And I and I thanked andrew for sending me that video and putting me in a headache.

But really I should be thanking eric for sending it to uh, sending it to andrew.

Thanks a lot, buddy.

But let's get into this.

Send it into romans chapter nine, which is the doozy of a chapter and we're going to

explore Whether paul and god are calvinists now.

Yes, they are by the way.

I was just about to say stop.

Full stop, um, so they're going they're going to be going over romans chapter nine.

The problem is I don't know that we're going to make it far enough into the video where they actually get into the text.

I don't think we'll try.

We'll try.

All right.

All right.

Go ahead, okay.

If you're not familiar with calvinism, this is also referred to as reformed theology.

This is the belief that things are predetermined by god Some would say god

decides who is saved who is not saved Others would say that god causes everything

and calvinism really emphasizes the sovereignty of god and the authority of the of the bible.

Stop that.

Yes.

I'm okay.

I'm not trying to be a jerk.

I'm not trying to be facetious.

I'm not trying to to patronize this brother.

I don't know this guy.

I want to be respectful um.

You know.

But everything he just stated is biblical right.

God is sovereign overall.

God has predestined and predetermined any and all things and everything that will ever happen

to think otherwise.

Is you don't know god?

Right period.

Jason cave says that should be the end of the video.

I I agree.

I I agree.

I this is just no everything that that guy just stated in the opening of the podcast is

absolutely who god is and how he operates, so.

Right, yeah, so just what you said what he just said is true and it our

position the reformed position emphasizes the sovereignty of god and the authority of the bible because

the bible is our Foundation for why we believe what we believe, you know,

we actually take second.

Timothy.

Uh three versus 16 and 17.

Seriously.

Yeah.

All right, so I actually take psalm 19 7 through 14 very seriously that the law of yahweh is

perfect.

That's our starting point if it's not start over, right?

Yeah.

So so scripture is where we get.

A a proper understanding of ourselves and of our nature a proper understanding of god and his

holiness.

We we get the understanding of what he desires.

We get a proper understanding of christ and his works.

Uh we get the the presentation of how sinful

rebellious people.

Come to know a holy god.

What's the most important question?

What is the most important question that anybody made in the image of god must answer?

Before they take their last breath here on this side of eternity.

How do I?

Oh, well, I was no go ahead I was gonna say what comes to your mind when you think about god.

Okay.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

Absolutely right tozer.

But then also um, and and I would say that let's let's add this to that as well is

what must sinful man Do to be made right with a holy and righteous god.

We all have to Reconcile that philippians tells us that one day

every knee will bow.

Every tongue will confess that jesus christ is lord and you will either

confess that in fear filial fear um on this side of

eternity.

Or you will confess that as you are experiencing the unbridled wrath of that

holy and righteous god for eternity in hell.

That's what the scriptures teach.

You can't get around that as much as these guys try to.

Yeah, um, but but you you.

Okay, i'm getting ahead of myself.

Look, we believe in the sovereignty of god because number one the bible teaches it and number

two if god is sovereign.

Overall, right.

Or or let's say this way if god is not sovereign Overall, then he is a lesser

god and he is not worthy of worship.

Yep.

He's not the god of the bible.

He's not the creator of the universe.

He is a little g god a false g god and that's who these guys believe in.

As you will see very very quickly.

Yes, let's go on.

And this is something that I I'm a personally a fan of open theism and

greg or jeff my friend who Does the podcast was teasing me and in preparation of

this going?

I can't wait to get to romans nine and I thought Why don't I bring in my mentor who

has shaped my theology on this and we'll just ask him questions.

So we are stoked to welcome my theological mentor to weigh in on this debate.

Mr. Greg boyd.

Welcome greg.

Okay.

Okay, let's Open theism.

All right.

Thank you.

I was gonna say define that for us.

Yeah, so this is the idea that god is not sovereign that he does not know the future.

The future is Open right rather than determined.

So god does not know the future.

He is waiting to see what happens and then he responds or really he reacts

To what happens right?

So he's not in.

Yeah, yeah God is learning.

He's taking in knowledge and then he has to respond To the to what he has just learned.

And so you what you'll actually see is later in this video greg boyd here

Says that romans 9 teaches open theism.

Oh Right, we call that hermeneutical gymnastics.

I'm glad you said that because later I have a note about that.

Nice.

Well, well here's here's something else too.

Uh for for those listening to the show now and then and then obviously for anybody listening to the podcast later um, you

will often hear those who profess faith in the lord jesus christ those who

maybe Believe in some of the doctrines of grace and and.

And you'll hear people describe predestination.

Uh, and the foreknowledge of god in this way.

They'll say this well, well this is the way predestination works.

They'll say that that god looks down through the tunnel of time.

And sees he knows who's gonna choose him and so he saves them and chooses them in return.

That's open theism.

That's just another facet of it.

And that is not what the scriptures teach at all.

Just turn to ephesians one.

Yeah, if that's if that's your view.

Okay, if you say god looks down the corridor of time and then based on your decision he then

predestines you so God then took in knowledge.

So he learned something so he's not omniscient, right?

He's not all knowing.

But if he looked down the corridor of time and saw that you wouldn't choose him and then created you

anyway.

Knowing you were going to go to hell and there was nothing he could do about it.

Now.

He's not all powerful.

So so with open theism you've destroyed god's omniscience and you've destroyed

god's omnipotence.

So he is no longer god.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

It's but and before before you keep going and brothers and sisters.

This is very very, uh, this is a textbook example of

what it means to Approach the scriptures with a framework

instead of gathering your framework from the scriptures as you as you now listen to.

Because greg is about to get into it and say a bunch of As as chris honholtz would

say gobbledygook.

Um, you're about to hear it and you're about to hear How dangerous it can be?

To not.

To to not keep the windshield wipers on when it comes to your mind when you approach the scriptures not

Approaching the scriptures with a preconceived framework and then you go to the bible to try to prove it.

But to look at what scripture teaches and go.

That's my doctrine period period.

Um, so just keep that in mind as we as we proceed.

Yeah, it's good to be here.

Thanks for having me on jeremy.

So he uh, if you're only listening to this You're gonna have to pull up the video at some point because greg is rocking

some red glasses.

Oh, yeah.

We were just commenting how good he looks.

Look, you know, I still haven't found what i'm waiting for.

Wow so much singing today.

Everyone's bringing the music.

Yeah, so what's your song jeremy.

So much music?

Well, if you don't know greg he is a an incredible Theologian,

uh, he's also the pastor.

He's really not.

Well, he is.

No, no, he is.

He's not a theologian for the devil.

For the devil, yeah, okay.

Yeah.

Okay I was gonna say he's not an incredible theologian.

A terrible deal is.

Incredible theologian when it comes to.

As god really said so right? Yeah. Yeah.

The hiss of the serpent as you like. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Master of woodland hills church, which he helped to co -found many years ago.

He is the author or co -author Of 22 books and counting.

That's the last count I have.

He's been married to an amazing woman named shelly for more than 30 years.

She is 30 we're going on 45 dude.

Are you?

Oh, yeah 44.

You're older than I thought.

We're 45.

Yeah, we're old uh, just uh an incredible guy and uh, this is just fun

because roman's nine is hard and Jeff and I are just gonna let it rip

and Greg has helped me so many times.

So we feel like this is going to be a fun.

If you can read roman's nine and not be a calvinist, we're gonna we're gonna see if it's possible today.

The only way you can do that.

Is by hermeneutical gymnastics.

Yep.

Finding a way around what the text actually says in order to make it say something that it doesn't mean

correct.

That's the only way you can do that.

So when he says roman's night is is is hard.

It's not hard if you take it at its plain reading.

Yeah.

It's actually very clear.

It's very clear.

Crystal clear.

Um, and I know they say that later.

I wish paul would have.

I'm kind of giving it away, but I don't know if we're gonna get there.

But you know, I wish paul would have been more clear.

Yeah, he was.

And oh by the way.

If you have a new american standard or an lsb you can clearly see how many times paul quotes the

old testament.

And wanting to be as crystal clear as possible when it comes to um god

choosing vessels of wrath versus vessels of destruction.

That's right.

Yeah.

Kathy here says.

They are denying the text.

Amen.

Kathy absolutely.

What do you think is it possible.

Only if god's predestined it to be possible.

Otherwise, we're sunk.

Ha ha ha we hear that.

Before.

It's an old joke that just gets even older.

Well fun fact too.

I felt like this is worth throwing in there.

Uh, I think a lot of people who know you don't know this little tidbit.

You actually were a calvinist at one point in your life.

Uh, that's.

Okay.

Now we we hear this a lot.

We hear this.

The criticism from the former calvinist.

Okay.

It's I know I know it has been covered on this show before because I know andrew and I have talked about it.

But those who claim to have been calvinist at one time and are no longer calvinist.

Never truly were to begin with.

Nope.

And we can tell this.

Because they always just seem to misrepresent the position.

Yep so when everyone says Whenever anyone says

i'm a former calvinist.

Red flags should go up.

Yeah.

Anything to add or you want me to keep going?

No, keep going.

That's true for a couple years.

Uh while while in seminary, uh, i've always told people that I totally get how someone

exegetically can be a calvinist.

Yeah.

Duh.

So keep going keep going hold on let me because think about that statement.

I understand how someone can exegetically be a calvinist.

I want to say argument over

How else are how else are we going to gain our theology if not exegetically.

Oh bro, you're wrong for that one.

Right, okay, so first.

Real quick.

Let's go over some of these particulars.

Okay.

Exegesis Is simply drawing out from the text, right?

It's coming from the text.

So the text provides Information and then we are pulling out that

information from the text.

Now the opposite of that is eisegesis.

Reading into the text something that's not there.

So for example Open theism that god is not sovereign and he does not know the future.

Okay, you have to impose that on the text because it's not there correct, right?

So so he mentions romans nine, right?

That's the whole thing about this show, right?

They're going over romans nine.

Well, we can just.

We don't have to stay in romans nine.

If we just back up one chapter to roman eight.

We destroy the idea Of open theism, right?

Just yes think about the golden chain of redemption.

Yep.

For those whom god foreknew he also predestined.

I mean It seems like god knows the future and especially those who would be saved.

That's right.

That's right.

I'm just.

Things out here.

Absolutely.

Well as scripture tells us right for ordained that means he has set everything in motion.

Nothing happens apart from his sovereign will and control and permission.

Nothing apart from that.

And for someone to say I exegetically see why you can be a calvinist

why you can believe that that there are are those that god has created and as vessels of wrath

and those to whom he's created as As vessels of righteousness because of the finished to be completed and ongoing work

of the lord.

Jesus christ for the forgiveness of sins.

If you if you can see that exegetically argument is over.

At this point we're just talking your opinions, right?

It's that's all it is.

It's greg boyd's opinions chapter one verse two.

That's all it is.

You can't what to say.

Something like that is so asinine and completely undercuts any and everything else you're gonna

say in opposition to to romans chapter nine confirming.

Along with like you said romans eight ephesians one ephesians two the whole.

The whole uh gospel of john the whole bible period right period go back to the fall.

What did what did god promise?

The the seed of the woman The head of the serpent the gospel the proto

evangelium.

Thank you.

Thank you.

It's at this at this point at this.

This is what you're hearing today.

I was listening to.

I was listening to martin lloyd jones, um in a sermon entitled the anger of the lord where he was

exegeting as martin lloyd jones does.

Isaiah five is the most important text in all of scripture, right?

Where he talks about the wrath of god and and this is.

That's right.

Isaiah 5 25 and and listen listen to this isaiah 5 25 says on this account.

The anger of yahweh has burned against his people.

And he has stretched out his hand against them and struck them down and the mountains trembled and their corpses lay

Like refuse in the middle of the streets for all this his anger is not turned back, but his hand

is still stretched out.

And lloyd jones said he very clearly said that if you don't understand The wrath of

god the wrath of god, then you don't understand the cross.

Right, you can't if you don't understand the doctrine of the wrath of god.

And why that's important and you don't operate practically and pragmatically in your life.

Everything you think everything you say and everything you do if you don't operate In a like I

already said at once the filial fear of god.

Because of the wrath that has been absorbed by christ in your place on the cross.

You don't understand the atonement.

You are not a believer, right?

Period.

You can't get the atonement wrong.

You can't profess faith in christ.

And say you believe in god and believe what the scriptures teach.

Oh, by the way, greg boyd, like you said to me earlier that he thinks the bible has errors obviously.

He wrote a book.

You can't do that and possess.

Faith in christ, right?

Yeah, you can't.

Yeah in in open theism.

You have no reason to believe the promises of god that he has no.

He's not omniscient.

He's not omnipotent and he's not powerful enough to carry it.

No, no.

Yeah.

Nope.

So.

So i've got i've got some some verses here that just Talk about god's

sovereignty or his all -knowingness.

Okay, so psalm 139 verse 4 Even before there is a

word on my tongue behold.

Oh lord, you know it all isaiah 46 10 declaring the end

from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done saying My

purpose will be established and I will accomplish all my good pleasure.

Job 14 5 since his days are determined and the numbers

of of his uh his month Is with you and his limits you

have set so that he cannot pass.

Seems like god knows When my days are are are up.

Yep.

Uh, what else do we have ephesians 2 verse 10?

For we are his workmanship created in christ jesus for good works which god prepared beforehand

And So that we would walk in them.

John 16 13.

I really love this one.

I know man me too john 16 13.

But when he the spirit of truth comes he will guide you into all truth.

For he will not speak on his own initiative.

But whatever he hears he will speak and he will disclose to you.

What is to come question.

How does the spirit know what is to come if god does not know the future, right?

Right.

Here's here's one.

Isaiah 66 starting in verse one thus says yahweh heaven is my throne and the earth Is the footstool of my feet.

Where then is a house you could build for me?

And where is a place that I may rest for.

My hand made all these things thus all these things came into being declares

Yahweh.

But to this one I will look to him who is humble and contrite of spirit and who trembles at my word.

I got one for you.

Send it the entire book of revelation.

Okay, look.

Whether you're a postmill an all mill a pre -mill doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter you believe john wrote Prophetically to an audience about things that

would take place.

Yes.

They were yet future.

So should we trust the book of revelation?

Is it god knowing the future right?

I Just I mean it doesn't take much to just think about these things.

No, no I mean we've been how long have we been doing this just looking at this video?

Not all.

Maybe not long and and these things are these are just on the top of our head.

Yeah.

All right.

All right.

Let's uh, let's get back to it.

Do we have to roman's ninth in a classic case?

I mean that's kind of the locus classicus of.

Calvinistic thinking and actually it's not the entire bible.

It's a locus classicus of reformed thinking just.

Let me just tell everybody too, um.

Drew can't even get very far in this video.

No, he sent me this video what an hour and 40 minutes ago.

I was still kind of working.

I watched four minutes of it.

I have not seen his notes.

He has not seen mine, but we were exchanging text messages back and forth.

He's like, yeah, I've already got that in my notes so I was like That's that's funny so go ahead.

I I didn't have alternative ways of getting around that.

Okay.

Okay.

I love this part because he says X right remember exegetically.

I understand how someone can be a calvin.

He repeats it.

He repeats it here in a second.

Yeah, I understand.

Right how someone can can get that exegetically?

That's the text for calvinist and I didn't have any other way around it what he's meaning to say.

Is that I don't like what the text says?

Therefore I need to think of another way besides exegesis.

That's what he's saying.

I can't pull up pull it out from the text because when I pull out from the text It says what it says.

Calvinism is true.

So I must find another way around.

What the text actually says?

Yeah.

Keep going.

So I I totally get why people are calvinists from an exegetical point of view.

But i've never quite got is how anyone could enjoy it.

Okay, because While I was it I didn't like it, you know.

Perfect.

I'm glad you actually stopped there instead of when I said stop because that.

That's it right there.

In greg boyd andy stanley um

bethel.

Um bill johnson um.

These examples right here.

This is it I what you me me.

Yes.

Jason cave just nailed it.

Okay.

For greg boyd for andy stanley for for those people like that who deny The

inerrancy infallibility authority and the sufficiency of scripture.

Here here's why they do because they don't know god one and most importantly

They are their god their opinions their feels their

emotions.

Their overly pragmatic seeker sensitive overly sentimentalized faith

In the devil and the doctrine of demons is what drives them not the god of the bible

and not the bible.

You heard it there.

I Understand I get it and agree with the fact that you can exegetically

Come to a place where you understand calvinism.

Now.

I want to I want to pause there.

They're gonna they're gonna demonize that word calvinism and calvin.

But just as a reminder john calvin would roll over in his grave if he knew there was anything like

this named after him.

He didn't want his own name on his own headstone.

That was not john calvin.

The doctrines of grace is what he's denying he is denying total depravity.

That's what he's doing.

He is denying Limited atonement.

He is denying predestination.

He is denying the gospel because he doesn't like it.

I don't understand.

How you can be a calvinist and enjoy it?

I don't understand.

I didn't like it.

Well, guess what bud no one cares what you like.

What does the bible teach.

Yeah.

You that's right.

Greg.

Greg boyd is a slave to greg boyd.

Greg boyd is a slave to his true father the devil.

Can you not hear the hiss of the serpent?

Right, I I can I see how you can get there by reading the scriptures, but no no, no.

How can you enjoy that?

I'll tell you how I can enjoy it.

Here's how I enjoy it.

I enjoy it by going waking up every morning and before my feet hit the floor saying god.

Thank you for another day and thank you for choosing me in spite of my own depravity in spite of my

own sin.

Thank you for giving me the faith and the ability to repent.

Thank you for saving me and sanctifying me positionally.

Thank you for strengthening me showing me the dis the grace of your discipline.

So that i'm sanctified more and more into your image each and every day, even though I don't deserve it.

All i've done to quote steve lawson is run as far away from god as I possibly can as fast as

I possibly can.

With the sin necessary to be forgiven.

Yeah, because that's how you enjoy it.

This is nonsense.

And this is why I could not get past this moment because i'm like no arguments done

Anything else he's gonna say about romans chapter 9 from this point forward.

Is poppycock it's nonsense han holtz is here.

It's gobbledygook.

It is the doctrine of demons period.

Yep.

Now when he when I heard him say I don't understand how anyone can

enjoy it.

My first thought was well, that's a non -argument.

Because there's things that I read that I don't particularly enjoy.

But I believe them to be true because they're in the world, right?

Right the the idea of hell and there being a hell and people go there to suffer

for eternity.

Yes, I don't enjoy.

Oh, did we lose drew?

Uh -oh.

Oh, oh.

You're back.

There was a delay but there was a delay.

Oh great, man.

Our internet is getting crazy, dude.

But I enjoy god.

And I trust god.

His thoughts are higher than my thoughts his ways are higher than my ways.

Okay, I don't know everything Thing that god knows but I trust that the god of the universe

will do what is right according to his will.

According to his purpose and according to what brings him glory.

Our job is just to be faithful with what he has given us to do namely Proclaiming the gospel

of christ to a loss and dying world.

And then we trust god for the increase.

When I hear.

When I hear him say this I'm reminded of uh of this

quote from j vernon mcgee.

He said it's god's universe.

And god does things his way.

Yes, you may have a better way.

But you don't have a universe.

Ha ha that's good.

Well and what he's doing here what he's doing is.

He is accusing god of unrighteousness.

That's what he's doing.

He's so romans 9 14 what then shall we say.

Or what shall we say then is there any unrighteousness with god.

May it never be megan oita in the strongest way.

No, no no.

What you know.

For he says to moses I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion On whom I

have compassion.

So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs but on god who has mercy.

Who are we who is up?

Who are we the the the the clay pots to say to the potter?

You can't do that.

Right.

He's accusing god of unrighteousness.

He is blaspheming the name of god period he's taking the lord's name in vain

period.

Any anybody who.

Who espouses this nonsense like this and like what andy stanley does.

That's exactly what they're doing.

That's it.

It's like I gotta believe this but I I never got into that, you know.

Oh for the glory of god, you know, he he chose me and and he could have chose anyone but he chose me.

And and as long as there's some people who are predestined not to get it.

Uh that I can't enjoy getting it.

It's like, you know, i'm glad I got.

Of all the starving people in the world.

I get to have this feast.

But right outside the glass window are all these other starving people who are not elect.

And i'm supposed to enjoy my dinner while they're looking in starving, you know, and then he asked the the host was jesus christ.

Hey, can we share some of this salvation food with these people that are starving?

He goes no.

You see well is it because there's not enough to go around?

Oh, there's plenty to go around.

I could I could save everybody if I wanted to.

But it glorifies me more just to choose you, okay, I have so much to say here.

Oh my gosh, man.

Okay, first of all this idea this far.

This is crazy this idea of of a feast right and everyone's

outside and the and it's as if they want to come in to they don't.

They don't.

Romans chapter 3 verse 10.

There is none righteous.

Not even one.

There is no one who understands there is none who seek for god.

So the natural man is not seeking salvation, right?

We go out and we share the good news.

Okay.

Hello.

Uh, great commission.

We're not just correct sitting on our hands And and saying well, why can't I go out?

No.

The person throwing the feast is the one who has commanded you to go out.

Yes.

The problem isn't that.

People are starving and jesus says you can't share your food the food of salvation.

The problem is that when you present To them the glorious food of salvation on the

platter of a blood -stained cross the people slap it away because they don't want.

That's right.

They love their sin.

I mean what in the world is is he even talking about here?

Yeah, well, I mean going back to romans 1 bro, you know for for this reason god gave them over for this reason God gave them

over and just as they did not see to fit to acknowledge god.

God gave them over to an unfit mind.

They are moving in the direction that they've chosen.

Right.

That's what they want.

And so god has said romans 1 we we did this on matter of theology.

We went through romans 1 god has said fine.

That's what you want.

You want the creation instead of the creator?

And you will not acknowledge god, but you're trying to suppress the truth.

And unrighteousness god says fine.

Go.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Those in hell chose to be there.

That's what they want.

Yep.

Now some may say well chris, what about what about you know, the story in luke, right?

Where.

Go go and tell my family go go and you know with the.

And.

What what about that?

Well that again?

They chose to be there that like and jesus responds and that they're not going to believe.

They're not going to they don't want to.

And oh, so this this kind of wow, bro.

Yeah, you this.

Yeah.

Here's what what chris honholt says I can't see.

Uh, he says they would rather eat foul decaying putrid goop than receive the blessed

peace That god provides.

That's right.

Amen.

That's it 100.

Yep.

And so you enjoy the dinner while those folks starve to death.

Oh, by the way, they folks starving to death.

One of them might be your little daughter or little son or your spouse or some other loved one.

But but at least you got saved so enjoy yourself for the rest of eternity while they suffer.

So the idea being This is absolutely ridiculous.

Absolutely ridiculous.

And now You just mentioned romans 1.

Mm -hmm, right?

Forget going through chapter 9.

And it is we need to start at romans 1.

Absolutely right because There we see paul's indictment against

humanity And that they are under sin.

But if we just look at verses 18 and following What happens.

Well just just to verse 20.

You've said it they suppress the truth and unrighteousness that's verse 8.

The power of god is evident to them because god has made it known to them.

That's verse 9.

They reject his divine attributes and They are without excuse

verse 20.

So let me say that again.

They are without excuse and then as you so eloquently put it the

rest of romans 1 Is god giving them exactly what they want you want to go

verse verse 21.

Let's read verse 21.

For even though they knew god They did not glorify him as god

or give thanks, but they became Futile futile in their

thoughts and then and their foolish heart was darkened

They knew what they were doing.

We all do.

We are all living according to our nature outside of the sovereign

saving Wondrous grace and works of the lord.

Jesus christ for the forgiveness of sins.

Yep.

Is your guy's head starting to hurt yet?

Because uh mine is.

Mine's really hurting and it's not because of my hat.

Yeah.

Yeah, god has chosen Some people and you and you get to enjoy that you you have to enjoy that with the

acknowledgement that then God has sent others to hell and there's nothing they can do and that's it.

That's it.

In some ways it feels like that it began to me you know and maybe i've had one person tell

me that I I was predestined not to be a calvinist because I you know, If you can't get into it, you

can't get into it.

Like I I just can't and you know I I could never enter into that, you know.

Oh the joy of the elect and he's altogether beautiful and altogether lovely.

It's like well, it'd be a lot lovelier if you would save everybody you could save.

Okay, first of all god's not required to save anyone.

No.

And he's putting himself in judgment of god again.

He's accusing the lord of unrighteousness.

He's doing exactly what romans 9 14 says.

Right not to do yeah.

Yeah, we all deserve the wrath of god.

And so it's only by his grace and his mercy that he even saves one.

Which is the point when you get into Romans chapter 9 and it talks about jacob and esau.

Not why did.

Why did uh god hate esau, but why did he love jacob?

Why did he he show grace and mercy on jacob?

It's because of his love and his grace.

So if grace can be demanded as greg is basically saying here.

Then it's no longer grace.

It then becomes an entitlement at that point.

Well, and Again, tell me you don't understand atonement.

Tell me you don't understand the wrath of god and tell me you don't understand grace.

I mean Paul paul clearly breaks this down verse 22 of romans 9.

And what if and and what if god wanting to demonstrate his wrath?

And to make his power known endured with much patience vessels of wrath.

Having been prepared for destruction and in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of

mercy.

Which he prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he also called.

Not from among jews only but also from among gentiles.

So here's here's a good way to think about that, right?

Number one none of us deserve salvation.

If you are a if you profess faith in christ and you think you deserve that

because god created you.

We need to have a bigger conversation.

Because you don't.

That's the.

That's why it's called grace.

Yeah, that's why it's called mercy.

Because you don't deserve it.

You deserve what christ experienced.

I deserve what christ experienced on my behalf.

Yep, and if you think if you think you deserve that.

Here and this is a hard pill to swallow you were talking about this earlier.

I love god and there are so many things about the lord that are that is absolutely mysterious.

You know, um scripture is a well a well so shallow that even a child can understand it.

But it's a well so deep that even the sharpest mind will never plumb the bottom of that.

Well.

You know, but but each you're a parent i'm a parent.

There's a lot of people listening to this that everybody has loved ones.

None of us want our loved ones to be those those vessels of wrath that mark that that the lord is marked out for

destruction.

But we have to understand that that's not up to us to decide.

And we have to accept that.

And if you can't again, we need to have a bigger conversation according to what the

scriptures teach.

Grace is not so amazing.

Grace is not so so just unfathomable.

If it can be demanded.

Right at that point.

It's not grace.

Right.

Yeah.

What i'm hearing greg say here is that if god can save anyone then he should save everyone.

Right.

That would.

That would be a lovely god to him.

Well, no.

Because then jesus would have died in vain, right?

Yes.

So now let's enter into greg's reasoning.

Here, let's get into his line of reasoning.

Okay.

If god can save without a cross.

Then or if god can save with a cross then he'd be a lot lovelier if he could save without it.

Right.

Because then jesus wouldn't have had to die.

So, so so at that point let's just completely get rid of god's justice his righteousness his holiness all together and let god just

save.

But I digress.

Well, I mean Where is it in romans bro?

I'm trying to find it and I can't right now.

Where is it in romans where it talks about that?

We are saved by god from god.

If if you can and somebody in the chat can throw it in there, um, if you can if you can

have grace and mercy and salvation apart from the blood a blood

-stained cross.

That that if anybody ever tries to tell you that that is not christianity.

That is not biblical orthodox christianity.

Um, it's not and I want to say it's romans.

6.

Well, let's bring in eric.

Eric says.

Eric said he had a question.

I'll find it.

I'll find it.

Why eric comes in.

Um.

I was an atheist And then I was an agnostic and then I became a christian at age 32

and I came into this secret church with purple lights and smoke

and Topical sermons and I was there for years and in all honesty guys I don't think I

could have made it going to the church.

I met now.

I would have walked out I'm gonna well, maybe not this trip.

I couldn't have understood it at all, but Going to a lutheran church with the robes and the gowns and all that and so

it's been a long process for me but I used to be harminian I realized that

I just have to confess that and so when i'm listening to all this this is Just stunning this argument that just

started argument between the guys at the church.

I left before which was a calvary chapel.

Hmm.

Chapter by chapter verse by verse word by word.

He goes through the old testament on wednesdays the new testament on sundays.

My pastor was incredibly fast speaker.

So it was super hard to follow him.

I have adhd it was very difficult.

I grew a lot.

I grew out of that initial church, I grew into this biblical church and now i'm in a

church that is incredible, but When I listen to this this this this

argument.

Amongst the texting from my old church.

I'm still in their group and every once in a while I Screen what's going on and it was about this issue.

It's just so funny that it came up and so here here's what I want to say and you guys can help me with this is

I get it.

I understand and I I feel The conflict and I I feel bad saying

this because i'll sound like an idiot, but here it goes.

All of those who come to me were drawn by the father right no one can come that's right unless the father draws them.

Amen, and and and I I said to my wife not all that long ago.

Why do you think it is that we were saved?

I mean, why do you think that is?

And I look at my mom and dad who can't accept doctrine scripture.

They make up their own god.

It's all in their head.

It's the bobblehead jesus on the dashboard.

And I said, I I think it's because we're okay with god being god, you know, and it's it's like I I understand that he has

hard things.

And and I I still love him and I accept him and I said I just wonder if that's when he looks

at you but yet He created you he wired you that way.

So when God draws people to himself He

created them.

Exactly the way they are knit these people together in their mother's womb.

From a It's an experiential part.

On our standpoint that we chose god.

I chose god when I I have that experience.

So that's the way it looks to me.

But if you're looking from outside of time if you are sitting over god's shoulder, we all know that's impossible.

You would see that there's a coke.

Two people going on there, right there's you accepting and Agreeing that

christ is your lord and savior and there's god drawing you it's a two -way street without a choice.

You are responsible for making that choice.

But I see where these people want to go.

It's hard to understand why god would wire somebody in a certain way and then not call them.

And I understand we're all sinners.

We're all depraved.

And.

And so all of us would go to hell if he didn't sovereignly choose me my wife

my kids.

Right, and that's why I fall on my feet.

And just say thank you.

I I know I can't understand you but but how do you personally?

Grapple with that with when these people start talking like this I at least i'm trying to understand why

they they do the gymnastics because it's painful in a way.

Because we know god Loves mankind yet.

He also hates sinners and or at least their sin.

Oh, he hates them too No, he hates the sinner too.

Yeah, so okay.

That's what i'm Trying to remember scripturally, but yep I just i'm struggling with that and i'm listening to it and I am

so on board with everything you're saying yet I'm still sitting here thinking Yeah, but I get why they their

humanity is what leads them.

To not want to believe it or to try to twist it right is that where what you would say is wrong with these people.

Well, yeah, so chris, let me go before you because I know you're going to have a lot more drawn out

um.

Response.

So when I listen to people like greg boyd Who have the the open theism

positions or I listen to people who hold to a mulliness position?

Position or a provisionist position.

These are all arguments That are devised for the sole purpose of

protecting the almighty will of man.

It is it's conjured up so that we can protect man's free will.

And That's its purpose because if people think if we take away man's free will which they don't

understand what free will is anyway.

The only person who truly has free will is god.

Because we are our slaves.

We're either a slave to sin.

There's no freedom in that.

Or we're a slave to christ would but the only way to become a slave to christ is if our nature or our

will Is changed and regenerated.

Then once it is changed we desire the things of christ.

So like when you're talking about It's our responsibility.

And we do have a choice and we and that we have an experience right where we do say

I am going to Repent of my sin and come to the lord.

Yes, but that's only because god has first regenerated us and changed our

nature so that we now desire God, right.

So so think of it like If I have a cage and and on one side of the cage, I have meat

and on the other side of the cage I have lettuce and I take a tiger and I put that tiger in the cage.

Where's the tiger going to go?

He's going to go to the meat every single time I can push him to the lettuce, but he's never going to eat.

Why.

Because his nature Draws him to the meat.

If I take a rabbit and I do the same thing that rabbit's going to naturally go to the lettuce, right?

It's not going to eat meat now.

Let's take man.

Let's take sinful fallen man and let's put Sin fleshly

desires on one side and let's put the holiness of god on the other.

What's he going to choose?

He's naturally going to choose the sin and fleshly desires because that's his

nature.

Okay, stop right there.

Let me.

Okay.

But god created him and knit him together in his mother's womb is solely responsible for

creating.

Everything about that person right.

Potter and clay.

Yeah, that's.

Where i'm just trying to say golly, I I will fall on scripture every

time I was dying when I was watching this video and I have

Five percent of the theological knowledge of you guys and here I am and early in this process sitting there

dying listening to what he was saying thinking the same things about much of it and still not picking up on half of what you're

saying about it, but.

So don't get me wrong I just it makes me cringe a little because then let me ask you

this and I don't know if scripture would point this out.

Probably not god Just randomly chose me.

There was nothing unique about me, right?

There's nothing I did.

He created me.

He knit me together in my mother's womb.

Everything about me is a blessing from his hand.

Same like jeffrey donner.

Right, I mean we are all and yet What is it when god goes to

choose somebody is it literally if if if you could go back in time?

I'm making a joke now and jumble it all up and he did it all over again.

Maybe I wouldn't be saved.

Not that he does things with random chance.

He's the god of purpose and intention and and I understand that so i'm kind of being facetious in a way by

even talking like this.

But what i'm saying is is Did he purposely create me to want to love him.

And yet he created somebody else to not want to love him and yet that's going to cost that man

to suffer an eternity in hell.

That's why I understand why these people do these gymnastics because right, right.

Because well in here in here's let me let me go back and and address some of the things you said the first time.

Um, uh, number one.

This is where the doctrine of the sovereignty of god and the realization of human

responsibility.

Trying to understand the two of them together is something that most of us

dare I say all of us.

Well, if i've heard dr. John mccarthur say I I cannot fully explain this and this

man has been studying scripture.

And pastoring and preaching for over five decades at one church.

Um, and and and so the doctrine of the sovereignty of god and the the the the the

realization of of human responsibility and how that intertwines and intersects and parallels

Is a mystery.

And it's a mystery that we have to go.

I don't know.

Yeah, but that helps me because the trinity we are.

Right right stuff like that, right?

Who says he understands eternity?

I'm like, no you don't.

I mean you do but you don't.

Yeah, I mean so but so here's so here's something else as far as you know going back to what you were saying.

And and.

People like greg boyd and people like like these these guys that we're talking about.

People like andy stanley.

Like I would put them in this category in romans one where the the.

It's ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.

Because they're suppressing the truth.

Their desire is to suppress the truth.

And and when paul talks about that and and the suppressing the truth.

It's like having a beach ball full of air and trying to hold it underwater.

You're only going to be able to push it down so far before it jumps up and slaps you in the face.

And that's exactly what people like.

The truth has slapped greg boyd in the face.

He said it.

I understand exegetically how I just don't.

Yeah, I mean it's.

Right, so so the doctrine of the sovereignty of god.

And the understanding of human responsibility and how human responsibility plays into.

Those who are in hell and their desire to be there.

They hate god.

So let me ask you this go ahead.

I would have for my clearly arminian friends from my other church who I dearly love.

Yeah, and I was trying to temper the the you could feel the tension and i'm like guys.

The venue texting this kind of stuff is going to cause problems.

Oh, yes drew and I are very familiar with that.

And there's no leader that's going to calm everybody down and i'm like come on.

But anyways, uh, I don't even know where I was just going to go with that the the message for.

Because I was trying to say guys There's hills we're going to die on there's hills we're not going to die on and so what I would try to say.

To somebody who's starting to get hot about arminianism and that that line of thinking is look

I don't understand these things, but I accept them.

I have to I look at the scriptures.

I exegete the scriptures and I accept what I don't understand.

I don't try to change it because that's the way I have tried to live my life.

I don't want to sit there and say well, that's not what god said.

I'm like, okay I'm, just going to be grateful.

I'm i'm one of them.

Well, so I mean so so you were you know.

One of the things that you were that you were asking is so, you know God created eric and knit eric together in his mother's womb and

you are made in the image of god and so was a guy like jeffrey dahmer and.

And understanding the spiritual warfare aspect that that's at play with an example like that.

But I mean, it's it's it's paul explains it in in romans chapter 9, of course quoting the old testament

um.

And starting in verse 10 and not only this but there was rebecca also and she had conceived twins by one man our

father isaac.

For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything Good or bad.

So that the purpose of god according to his choice God's choice.

Would not would stand not because of works because of him who calls it was said to her.

The older shall serve the younger just as it is written.

Jacob.

I loved.

But esau I hated yeah, and that's that's a that's a difficult pill for

for for us to swallow is to it could have been me.

Right, right.

So so are you telling me chris that god can create someone make someone in his image of bless.

Bless a woman with opening her womb to have a child and that child can be a wrath fit for

destruction to show to show the wondrous mercies like that child can be the black mat to which

the Diamond of his mercy and the gospel sits upon to shine bright.

Yeah, yeah read verse 21 of chapter 9.

Yeah, I mean.

Potter have not the right over the clay.

Right?

Absolutely.

One for one for honorable one for dishonorable.

Use now.

Yeah, and and so often when you when you point those truths out it's like well.

That's just cold and I can't believe in a god who would.

It's you don't get to question god.

That's god.

The one who literally didn't lift a finger to breathe a star into existence.

You can't question him.

Who do you think you are?

Who do we think we are?

I mean, I was listening Rabbit trail for a minute, but listen, no latest episode of

just thinking right a biblical theology of climate change.

And they were talking through that they were like, who do we who do we think we are?

And thinking that we have we have sovereign control over god's creation.

We are part of that creation.

And and I mean, it's I can't believe in a loving god.

Well, it's not your place to question him.

Yeah, it's not.

It just speaks so clearly that it's self -elevation.

You start to do all these gymnastics that you guys are talking about because you just don't like the way it sounds.

That's it and then you're off to the races.

You might as well just start right downgrade.

What are you going to accept?

And what are you not going to accept?

You know brother when I was.

Authority for you.

Yeah when I was uh, this is a long time ago.

Uh, this is a funny story uh, my wife and I um I think it's before I think we were engaged.

We went up to this place in north.

Georgia called amicalola falls.

And um, i'm i'm one of these people that when I see like a cliff or Something

like that.

No, I don't want to jump off of it.

I just want to.

I just want to explore it.

I love exploring.

I love going hiking i'd love doing all that stuff.

So there was like this this this I didn't realize how steep this was and how loose the the the dirt and the

rock was where I was going to go down.

And i'm wearing chuck taylor's and.

And and they are not good for hiking and i'm like, hey, I want to go down there.

There's this beautiful like plateau right here.

I want to get this picture and so I start.

I start walking down this this embankment and and the the.

The soil and the rock underneath my feet is is very loose and I start sliding and I start

picking up speed.

And there was a moment where i'm like if I don't slow down i'm not gonna stop at this plateau.

I'm gonna go over it.

Yeah, when you Start questioning god.

Let me back up a little farther.

When you start adding in your own framework because you don't like something that scripture says.

It's like a it's like taking a step off of a downgrade and the farther you go down.

The faster you go.

And and and it's one of the inertia comes into play and unless you

Are met with in and the immovable object of the lord jesus christ and the

holy spirit himself.

You will continue down that downgrade until you apostasize completely.

That's where greg boyd is.

Yep.

Yeah, one of the things that always brings me to uh to my

face in worship Is thinking on the foreknowledge of god.

When we see it in the the ordo salutis or the golden chain of redemption in

romans chapter 8.

And so what paul says here is he says for those whom he foreknew he also

predestined.

To become conformed to the image of his son.

Now this idea of foreknowing and predestined so he foreknew them and then

he predestined them.

So this idea of foreknowledge and The best way i've heard it explained is by dr.

John snyder.

From media gratia, and he's a pastor of christ church, new albany and new albany, mississippi.

He says it this way of foreknowledge.

It is god initiating a relationship with a rebel before that rebel was

created.

In such a way that guarantees the rebel will be made a friend.

Wow, that's the foreknowledge of god.

And if that doesn't cut you to the heart and make you want to run to the lord and

worship and praise I don't know what will.

Right, right.

Well, uh brother keep going with the video because he says something here.

I think yeah, you guys can pop me off.

I just said eric.

Hey, man, that was good stuff.

That was good.

Yeah.

That was good stuff.

Thank you.

If you have anything else Let me know.

Oh, yeah, no i'll Thank you.

All right.

All right, because he gets into something here that I think is important.

Um, okay, let's do it.

Instead of doing this little eeny meeny miny moe I choose you and you are let go.

That that part.

I heard that is that how god elects chris.

I think we I think we just kind of touched on it.

It's like you guys remember that game duck duck goose.

Is anybody old enough to remember that?

I loved that game in elementary school, but that's exactly what.

Duck duck duck goose.

And then take off running.

Um, no, that's he's assuming the mind of god here.

I'm telling you he's accusing god of unrighteousness.

I mean, it's almost.

But but you know, I feel like I feel like god answered this question already in ephesians

1 verses 5 and 6.

Why he predestined us to adoption as sons through jesus christ to himself

according to the kind intention of his will.

To the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed upon us.

That doesn't sound like eeny meeny miny moe.

Yeah, he kind of said the same thing in uh in first peter.

Blessed be the god and father of our lord Jesus christ who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope

Through the resurrection of jesus christ from the dead to obtain an inheritance incorruptible.

And undefiled and unfading haven't been kept in heaven for you.

That's not eeny meeny miny moe.

That's not duck duck goose.

That is authoritative.

He has caused you he chose you to be born again.

Yeah, and we I mean we just we literally just just talked about this, right?

Just talked about this this dude.

So I I I I.

The the internal conflict.

For me, I think I was destined to eventually outgrow calvinist the internal conflict.

I don't like what it says.

Therefore. I will create a god that appeals to my liking.

Yeah, will you will you real quick and let's go back to that.

Will you highlight uh d otero's quote there?

She said I I used duck duck goose.

She said even in exactly I knew who I was gonna choose.

Good call out.

Good point.

That's great.

Oh good call.

Okay.

Sorry.

Go ahead.

Good point.

Good point.

Uh, and and finally found other ways of interpreting those tough.

Passages Romans 9 of course case found other way, you know, I I was actually looking

into um determinism as well kind of the the secular version of calvinism because i've seen a lot

of people argue that based on physics based on Neuroscience, we don't really have free will it's just an illusion.

And basically coming to the same conclusion, you know people don't like this idea like it can drive people crazy or can make

them depressed and a lot of people will say like Yeah, if this idea makes you uncomfortable Then just

don't think about it too much because it can it can drive you nuts.

And I was also watching a video of uh, john piper, you know, i'm famously a calvinist.

Yeah, basically saying the same thing i'm just saying like yeah, this is true you don't have a choice, but you know, you just

need to act as if you do have a Choice because otherwise you won't be motivated to try to save people

or spread the gospel or anything.

Uh, hmm.

Okay, chris honholtz found other ways of interpreting and there's.

Yep, and then melissa owens.

Chris and drew stop it.

Sorry, sis we.

The idea of free will making people or not having free will making people uncomfortable that doesn't.

That doesn't make me uncomfortable.

Because I understand the sovereignty of god.

Now one of the things that's I.

I don't know if you if you listen.

We're able to listen to the whole thing in the span of time, but when when I listen to it.

It sounds like.

What they're saying about calvinism and god's sovereignty.

Is that god is sovereign over each and every little thing that you do, right?

So I picked up this pen because god sovereignly made me pick up this pen.

I wore drink water right now.

Yeah, I wore this shirt because god sovereignly made me choose this shirt.

I didn't want to drink that water, but the lord made me.

Yeah.

Okay, so.

When someone makes those arguments like that and i've heard it before I chose this shirt God didn't choose this

shirt for me.

Okay.

That's not what we're talking about in free will.

No god doesn't care about the shirt you chose to wear.

The discussion about free will is salvation.

How do you want to know the lord?

Right, right when it comes to will when it comes to free will in the in the the

topic and conversation of Choosing the things of god.

You have no ability to apart from the spirit living

inside of you.

Apart from heart regeneration heart surgery.

As it's described in scripture the heart of stone has been replaced with a heart of flesh.

The holy spirit Takes up residence inside of you.

You have no ability to save yourself.

Dead men cannot raise themselves from the dead.

Period.

You just like you can't see scroll said he said if I can if I can turn my heart of stone in a heart of Into a

heart of flesh.

I have no need for a new heart or something.

Or no, he said he said if I can choose god with my old heart, I have no need for a new heart.

That's what he said.

That's right.

That's right.

So when it comes to the matter of the will those in adam those in sin

will choose themselves And sin every time.

They are absolutely unable and incapable Of choosing the things of god

and glorifying god according to the law of yahweh apart from

Regeneration taking place apart from positional and the beginning of progressive sanctification.

You cannot choose the things of god without the lord for and eric said it When he came in without the

lord first drawing you to himself And replacing that heart of stone with a heart of flesh.

That's right.

That's right, and we've got uh, we've got some good comments here.

Yeah.

Because it'll show there we go my man.

Hold on.

I gotta and I changed the view here Because our nature is fallen.

We are incapable Of choosing to love and obey god including to choose to repent

and trust in christ.

Amen, bro.

That's it.

That's it.

I mean I feel like paul was clear with what he wrote.

You know, I feel like god was clear when when the holy spirit penned the entirety of the bible.

Well, and this guy Um said something mustache man here said something else that uh,

Um where he was talking about, you know, uh, if if if those there are those who are chosen and not chosen.

Then then there's no need to do anything, right?

He's talking about the frozen chosen.

Yeah, and he's talking about it's a conflation.

Uh, yes.

Calvinism and hyper calvinism.

Correct.

Correct, which which we hyper calvinism we reject.

Um brothers and sisters the sovereignty of god.

The predestined the predestining the foreknowledge of god the sovereignty of god and salvation

ensures the success of evangelism.

It ensures the success of the great commission.

So.

Anybody who who tries to say?

Well, you're reformed or you're a calvinist.

Do you believe in the doctrines of grace so you don't evangelize.

That is reject that that is not at all.

Hold on.

Here here's this comment from tracy.

Yeah, if I can choose not To sin, why am I held responsible for breaking god's

law?

Okay.

If if you can choose if you cannot choose not to sin, okay.

If you cannot choose not to sin, why am I held responsible?

I will respond to this with the same way paul responded to the objector.

Who are you oh man to answer back to god?

Which is what I mean.

It's clear.

Right, you may you you may say then how how then does god find fault?

Who are you oh man to answer back to god?

Does the the thing molded not say to the potter?

Why have you made me this way?

Yep.

Yep.

Oh, here we go.

Jason.

Jason also along the same lines same place.

So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs we'll call that that that's also

works.

But on god who has mercy.

Well and going back to to if I if I cannot choose not to sin.

Like tracy you're asking the wrong question.

Each of us are born With with a sin nature that puts

us we we are hostiles we are hostile to god we are enemies of god.

Um.

That's Right that that's who we are.

We are the the poison of asps is on our lips.

That's That is who we are.

That is the nature that has been passed down to us.

Um however, if you choose to reject god that is your choice in doing so and that

this goes back to the The the mystery of the sovereignty of god and human responsibility and I think I saw someone.

Yeah, melissa owens said john macarthur has an article online called twin truths god's sovereignty and man's responsibility.

Um, yeah go to gty .org.

And start digging into some of that listen to those guys who are much smarter than me.

Uh talk through that rc sproll talks about it as well.

Um.

We cannot we cannot shake our fist at god and say well, that's not fair.

I you know, this person can't choose you.

So why are you holding their sin against them?

That is not the way that is not the way that works we are not in a place to do that we are not.

In a judgment seat judging god.

We are the one being ones being judged.

Yep.

You know, I see someone in the background here.

Oh, the question is should I let him in?

Because we're kind of doing a great job uh.

Let's see, let's let's let him in Andrew.

Hey, how you guys doing?

You won't be able to hear me too.

Well.

But uh I was trying to get you while I was at the uh, jefferson memorial to see if you could figure

out where I am right now.

You're at the jefferson memorial.

Now, you know where I am, but uh, I was trying to get it but I was gonna let you guys guess but i'm down in dc.

I headed the museum of the bible tomorrow.

So I figured i'd pop in and say hello.

You know, hello you guys you guys reviewing the video.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it's is chris enjoying it.

Oh, he's very much enjoying it.

Yeah.

He's had lots to say.

Well, I look forward to hearing it.

I just figured I'd pop into the show real quick.

Say hello.

Hey, buddy.

Hey, you're having a great time.

We're praying for you.

Yeah, man.

All right.

All right.

We'll see you.

See you buddy.

Well, I think this would be a good time To bring in one of our sponsors

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What do you think he's gonna sleep on?

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I'm, just i'm saying you won't it's it's a great.

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I've got I've got two but one's not mine.

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Uh Melissa says I want to be a master theologian like drew

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I just make up as I go.

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All right, let's get into this.

Well, you know, that's it.

Jeff is charles purse who's a real famous american philosopher uh.

Founders of pragmatism.

And he that's a great idea.

We're gonna take our cues from the founder of pragmatism.

Downgrade much.

Yeah, chris.

What is pragmatism?

Pragmatism is.

Is is going will this work.

Sure, let's do it.

That's a very basic definition.

Yeah using whatever you can to get the big the bigger and better result.

So.

So let's apply this to the church.

We see this with music.

We've talked about this tons of times countless times with music but

Whatever you're doing to bring people in.

That's pragmatism if anything apart from the Proclamation of the word of

god, right.

The the ordinary means of grace.

What we would say is pragmatism.

So if I must have gold dust falling from the ceiling in order to attract people if I must have a big band singing a

whole bunch of songs that are not christian Hello

reckless love, right.

If I have a big band doing all those things that's Playing to carnal men

in order to draw carnal men and then keep them in the church.

Yep, when you do that and you engage in that.

The sheep will starve.

Absolutely every time every time every and then you have to keep upping the game.

Yep, because what you what you bring them in with you have to keep them with.

And when it's anything other than christ when it's anything other than the eternal Uh second

member of the trinity.

The one who died in our place the one who's seated at the right hand of god the one who's interceding for the saints right now.

When you when you bring people in any with anything other than the inerrant infallible authoritative

insufficient living and active word of god being proclaimed being sung being prayed

and operating according to that you always have to Increase the carnal means.

And so you end up seeing what we what we've seen over the last month where there was a pastor on A stage playing

super mario brothers as a part of his sermon on a big screen behind him, so Avoid

pragmatism avoid the normative principle of worship save yourself from heartache.

Trust me.

Yep.

Pragmatism is if it works, it must be right.

Yep.

That that the that any belief.

You show the the The depth of your commitment to a belief by your

willingness to act on it when acting counts.

So if you really believe something you'll act on it when acting counts, don't we do that?

Don't we do that when we go out and proclaim the gospel not according to him.

Yeah, not according to him.

Again, this this is why I said he's conflating Calvinism and hyper calvinism.

Hyper calvinists believe that you don't have to do anything.

God is just going to save who he's going to save.

Yeah, and so you can just sit back and sit on your hands.

That's why they're called the frozen chosen chosen.

We actually act on what we believe.

We go out we proclaim the gospel to a lost and dying world.

And we do that because god has promised To save his people.

Amen.

And so I I think it was Whitfield or Spurgeon

I can't remember which one but they but they said Um, we don't know who

saved.

So we go out and or we don't know who the elect are.

So we go out and we proclaim the gospel to all if we knew

if.

It is something like god didn't mark who was who was the elect, you know.

With a paint stripe on them.

Otherwise, we'd be going up looking looking on people's backs right to see if they have part.

Right, but we go to all.

Because god has promised that he has people of every.

Every tribe tongue and nation so we we don't know who they are.

So we proclaim the message to all.

We proclaim the message.

We we proclaim the message with the word of god, so we.

We we proclaim with the text.

We exhort with the text.

But then we we also call the will according to the text.

Don't.

Uh, i'm a calvinist.

I I wholeheartedly Unashamedly unreservedly will say that I affirm the doctrines of

grace through and through.

But do we are not so proud and so prideful because god has chosen us to where we will

not beg.

Sinners to repent.

Right.

And that's how each of us needs to operate when it comes to.

Uh, the the evangelism that we practice in our homes.

Um with with our families, but then that's also how we operate when we evangelize in the world.

Um, we are not so proud as to as to not beg.

Those to repent and to turn to christ.

That's right.

Eric has a question.

We're going to bring him back in.

Thank you, um.

This is going to drill down on.

Uh, I lost it one john two verse two.

Prophecy.

Yes, and i'm i'm in the um blue letter bible Trying to do sound

hermeneutics um.

And now i'm on striving for eternity and it says In this statement on limited

atonement.

It says the passage the passages which say jesus is the atonement for the uh

Atonement for the whole world shows the elect will come from all around the

world.

So, um and this is that one of these points in this argument was

my friend said.

The bible says that jesus was the atonement for the whole world.

He's interpreting that As every single human being on the planet

Is what i'm I.

I really didn't get to engage him in a real Time.

Andrew is.

Hang on one second.

Eric, we can't.

Oh, there's lincoln.

Can you tell where i'm at now?

Yeah the lincoln memorial.

And if we uh, let's see crowd of people here.

Andrew's just coming in going.

Can you see me?

Yeah, has jesse waters asked you who's sitting on that chair yet.

I Don't get that wrong.

So just just wanted to uh now you can kind of better tell where i'm at.

There we go.

So you had to show us the lincoln memorial and the washington memorial?

Yeah, yeah.

So As I walk down the steps of the uh, the lincoln memorial

so, uh I can't see I can't see who else is the fourth person in here tonight.

It's eric.

Who sent you the video that we're reviewing?

Oh, okay.

Hey, eric.

Hey, how are you?

Good.

Good.

Welcome to the show.

I hope that.

I hope these guys are treating you.

Well.

Yeah, yeah, you know.

Look we're treating them great.

But look what chris honhold says.

Yeah, honhold says leave it to andrew to break in and disrupt the show.

I know I I am I i'm i'm disrupting my own show and uh, But you know,

hey, i'm giving you a break from that bad video that you've been, you know talking about all evening.

That's true.

That's true so you know.

Let's go that way so we can see.

There we go.

But uh.

Well, I hope I hope you guys thoroughly answered that uh all the fun things in that video.

And uh.

Not all of them.

Not all of them.

And I hope that you have a nice headache.

Um, and if you do if anyone does have a headache it might.

They might need to just go get themselves in my pillow.

Andrew, yeah, drew already did that.

Drew already did that.

All right.

So well, i'm glad that eric made it in and uh, I'll see you guys later.

Just wanted to get to at least a monument that you could recognize.

Nice.

All right.

Later guys.

All right, eric.

Keep going buddy before we.

Because because you're you're onto something good you're onto something good.

So, um.

And so i'm i'm Intentionally coming over to look at kind of the hermeneutical

processing of the whole world because andrew The way he worded this in here

Is the passage which says the the whole world shows the elect will come from all

around the world correct.

And his sacrifice is the only atonement the world will ever receive.

And and my friend was Again, not being able to have a live

conversation because that's just the nature of how this came across today.

He was saying I know what he was saying.

He was saying everyone on the planet, right?

Every human being I think is where he was trying to go.

And andrew over here is saying From around the whole world believers of every race

nation.

Uh, and then when I look at the The the the root word and all of that stuff.

I i'm not necessarily Seeing How either one can

say, you know, we're kind of interpreting that the way each of us want to.

I mean How do you look at that if you can?

I don't know if you have a double screen here.

We can pull it up.

So so.

Your friend who's talking about propitiation.

And a propitiation of the whole world now if this means every body in the world

every person in the world.

What propitiation means is a removal of wrath?